#Marinette villain arc

[fernsnouveau]

I actually disliked the direction where I'd recently seen a bunch of the more reasonable S5-critical ML fandom people going. Those discussions and analyses were spiraling increasingly towards demonising Marinette over time, as we were left hanging with the s5 ending for a long time, and the fandom had nothing new to talk about.

I actually liked her flaws.

But then the canon does... this...

And I do admit, it's an in-character way to push Marinette towards a villain arc. Like, if I had to construct a darkfic scenario where Marinette goes evil and try to keep it as close to her canon personality as possible, it would look something like this. Which, I guess, means that it's theoretically easier for me to accept than, for example, S5's occasional incidents of Edgy Murderboy Chat Noir (how is that the same character who had TWO guilt-based mental breakdowns about accidentally cataclysming someone completely out of his control, including the main villain??!). I'm sure there are in-character ways to turn Adrien (or anyone else) into a villain, but Murder-Noir was Not It.

Of course another reason why the writing of Murder-Noir gives me extra heebie jeebies, was how it felt like an abuse apologia excuse, validating Gabriel's accusations for Adrien to not "deserve" autonomy, nor to experience or express any negative, inconvenient emotions. Murder-Noir feels like it's a writing choice directed at child abuse victims in the audience, who related to Adrien. "See, your abuser was right, you're horrible and overly emotional and out of control, so you NEED to be rigidly controlled for your own and everyone else's good!

Anyway.

While I admit that Marinette taking up Gabriel's mantle this way is technically in character, I cannot claim to enjoy the writing choice at all. I liked Marinette's flaws. I wanted to explore them. I did not want her demonised to this extent. She could have been meaningfully flawed without becoming better at being Gabriel, than Gabriel himself was!

After this, the only justification for the lovesquare to stay together, would be as a wish-fulfillment or "reward" for Marinette, and that's not enough for me. When I think about, if there was a real-life abuse victim in Adrien's position (minus the supernatural elements), and then they were friends with, and/orstarted dating someone who repeatedly treated them the way Maribug has been doing (and "repeatedly" is important here, it demonstrates unwillingness to learn from mistakes and be sincere about apologies – S4 was brushed under a rug as soon as Chat Noir superficially forgave!), ESPECIALLY but not only siding with the abusive parent and lying to the victim that the abuse they experienced was "not really abuse" and For Their Own Good, and demonstrated this complete infantilisation and lack of respect for the abuse victim, wanting to see them only as a palatable, innocent fairytale being who's not allowed to be inconvenient, express negative emotions, make informed choices mor generally be a complete person...

Obviously the right thing to do, for the abuse victim, would be to get the hell away from that person.

It does NOT mean that the person is irredeemable. They're just... not owed the abuse victim's forgiveness and continued presence in their life.

And I can't ignore that anymore.

We failed to get an arc about Adrien surviving and escaping Gabriel and healing. He has now been put into a position where, in order to ever be okay, he would have to survive and escape Marinette in order to heal.

I don't like this. It feels very hopeless and bleak and unenjoyable. I don't even think the story is gonna go there and free/heal Adrien (Astruc made it clear that Adrien isn't supposed to be his own character or have agency, he's supposed to be Marinette's accessory and that's never gonna change).

But as far as I'm concerned, any excuse for the lovesquare relationship to get back together after this, would have the unpalatable aftertaste of propaganda to make victims return to their abusers.

I don't like this trajectory!!!

[fernsnouveau]

You didn't list Félix.

However, Nathalie enabling Adrien's abuse is nothing new; it's been, like, part of her actual job for most of the show's runtime. Disappointed but not surprised.

I don't like Bunnix' authoritarianism in making sure that Gabriel's reality rewrite happens, (and I've had issues for years with the way Future Bunnix uplifted Ladybug and put down Chat Noir in "Timetagger", like, did she NEED to make his mental health worse in the past For Greater Good or what?!) but it's kinda difficult to effectively criticize time travel characters for secrecy or when they do or don't interfere... obviously, in addition to telling Maribug "it's your choice", really could have also tried to get her to realise that by making it, she's depriving Adrien of an informed choice. But hey, Bunnix' opinion on Adrien has consistently been noticeably low -_-

Plagg and Kagami's writing at this point kinda feels like they're barely treated as characters anymore? Which is weird because they used to rank pretty high on the character writing quality scale in this show. I don't know what Kagami's personality is even supposed to be anymore, post-feligami. She also betrayed Ladybug's secret identity to Félix, despite having been a rather principled person in the past. I'm not sure if the showrunners know what her personality is anymore, either.

I have mentioned several times that Plagg lying to Adrien actually hurt me more than Marinette lying to him. It's like Adrien has finally lost the one person who was fully on his side and understood him better than anyone else. It was actually the thing that devastated me the most about the way S5 ended. However, it's not like we've been getting a lot of actual characterization to react to about it.

People who are keeping secrets from Adrien:

Nathalie, bunnyx, Marinette, Plagg, and Kagami

People who are getting salted on and hated for their actions:

Marinette

[bigfatbreak]

For the Viceroy AU, how does Tom figure out Gabriel was the one responsible?

[lostuntothisworld]

Can we please talk about how Griffe Noire's iris and sclera colors sort of look like the reversed version of Mayura's and Argos' even tho it's supposed to look like Shadow Noir?

[Edit: I forgot Anticat!]

[richardsphere]

I hate timetravelers. They rarely have consistent characterisations, because anything is in-character when you have infinite amounts of off-screen "implied" off-screen characterarcs. But even by that standard, turning "Spunky little rebel" alix into "both romanticised abuse and not doing romanticised abuse have concequences" as an excuse for "neutral-by-way-of-apathy" is... bad. And its not helped by the fact that there's three of her. Because usually when a timetraveler says something, the writer at least have the option of retconning and saying "you met them on a at an awkward time in their life". But because we know that every bunnix from Teen to Grandma holds this opinion. The writers dont have that option available. The one reason she got picked was because she could be trusted to care, but now we know that all 3 versions of her agree that "caring is for chumps". Like this special went full "South Park-level" of apathy in Bunnix character. It no longer matters to her if what Ladybug does is right or wrong, because "both options have concequences", so you might as well do this cause all paths are equal (in that they have concequences. The non-equality of the concequences are not considered relevant to our 'True Neutral'-Nihilist). and then i think back to the first time we saw Bunnix and remember the way future-Bunnix kept being Pass-Ag to catboy and i fear that somehow, not only are things gonna get worse before they get better. But the "benefit of hindsight/omniscient observer" character is gonna end up holding catboy responsible for his actions in the fallout of these actions borne from her own moral apathy to LB's actions. The current status of Bunnix' moral philosophy can be summarised as: "If Catboy breaks my watch in the future, thats the result of his actions and he should be held morally accountable for those actions and i should publicly shame him for it in front of Ladybug in the past before he can even commit the crime im punishing him for. But If Ladybug becomes a Censorship Queen and Controllingly Abusive Romatic Lead, she should not be held accountable because Not Doing That was also an option, and therefore must've been morally equivalent to choosing to Do That."

like i said, fuck timetravelers in general, but even amongst the moral myopia of timetravelers Bunnix is particularly bad.

You know what I think is funny? That for as much as I see people bending over backwards to justify Marinette's lies, I don't see these scenes as gif sets alot or even at all in the case of the "Ladybug will now decide for the world what the truth is" moment.

It's almost like her fans just wanna sweep that under the rug or something. Same as the Black Cat Lucky Charm Marinette ignored, Marinette telling KAGAMI no problem that her mother is a terrorist, or the fact that Marinette telling Chat Noir NOTHING means leaving him incorrectly to blame himself and believe his absence caused the death of an innocent man who's son is now an orphan

Funny that for as many excuses as I'm seeing this whole time, all of that and even more is just easily ignored because that wouldn't make for a good excuse and justification, now would it?

[baenyth]

Bethany's Bizarre Miraculous Reviews Episode 5-24: The Beginning of the End: NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE

NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE Watermelon NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE

Why does Marinette's voice sound so deep in the intro, now that I think about it? Why specifically this season? Because it's season 5?

Well, at least the show's not hypocritical about calling the news forcing couples bad.

Deepfakes

Oh, right. this. Feligami is like breaking up with Mega Man only to start dating Mega Man?, who is a different character from Mega Man that appeared in Powered-Up and is essentially just Mega Man but an evil binch. He's prevalent in 8-bit deathmatch.

"Fuck it! I'm revealing my identity to Marinette!"

Oh right. This. You think they'd celebrate Chloe's Public Execution the same way? Now I'm getting into watching people suffer.

Spotlight

Oh hey. Kagami knows Ladybug's identity! Awesome! Not awesome that she's sharing it with Mr. Genocide over here, though.

Wait, she knows Ladybug's identity as well but was akumatized twice and Hawkmoth didn't notice. Damnit, there's no excuse for sending Luka to Brazil now!

Warped-ahh voice

Eh. Close enough for me. Now do the other two.

The White Rabbit

Why does she look so much more dying now?

Here it comes!

That's it? That's the nightmares? A single image? And the character who's all about the plight of being seen now has the worst nightmare of her supposed father breaking a guitar? Rose's was pretty immature, too.

Baby doll

Tired of his dad's shit

Oh boy. Gabriel-Marinette parallels. This relationship is doomed.

Cowboy-ass mf

Cool motive. Still working with a terrorist supervillain and committing genocide.

Welp, there goes Felix's integrity.

Couldn't he call Ladybug for a quick Lucky Charm and big bang?

Oh. Nevermind.

Oh. Double nevermind.

The foosball dungeon

Yep, I'm undergoing my villain arc. Anyone have any fics that simultaneously show how horrendous Adrienette would be and gives Felix plenty of consequences for his actions or am I just going to have to imagine having my own villain arc where I become something inbetween the Toymaker and Bill Cipher and be a silly whimsical creature that loves to play games while also being a sinister dealmaker that might remove your eyes if you lose my quiz show and mess with reality even without the Two Miraculouses?

[drtwit]

Miraculous Ladybug - Miraculous Menaces AU: Feelin' Good

Miraculous Menaces AU

Chapter Summary:

Volpina and Ladybug are dangerously close to being friends. This can only end well.

A collection of vignettes covering an AU where Chat becomes Hawkmoth's partner in crime. At first, Adrien thought that the day he found out that his father was the supervillain terrorizing the people of Paris was the worst day of his life, but in retrospect, it might have been the one change needed to save his family. Because it was also the day that both of them realized that, when they don't need to be Adrien and Gabriel Agreste, they're both fucking goobers. Follow the adventures of Hawkmoth, Chat Noir, and their reluctant assistant who doesn't get paid enough, Nathalie, as they try to navigate life as a supervillain family. And pray for Ladybug's sanity as she suffers their antics.

[butterfly-effected]

First Look at Shadybug and Claw Noir

Miraculous: Into the Reverse, is giving me exactly what I want. I can’t wait to bear witness to evil Ladynoir. I know I’m not the only one legitimately excited for this to release.  GIF Credit: @ouiladybug​

[fernsnouveau]

It kinda reminds me of the phenomenom where people, often minorities, experience some kind of a negative thing, and then more privileged people who don't experience the negative thing, keep telling them that it's "all in your head" or "just anxiety" or "oh everyone goes through that [they actually mean a much milder issue] and you're just supposed to put up with it because it's not a big deal!"

This happens with things like harassment and bigotry (privileged people not noticing things like microaggressions or dogwhistles, then telling minorities that they just imagined the hostility), but also with disabilities, especially "invisible" ones and issues like chronic pain.

(This is also why behaviorist therapies and treatments tend to psychologically harm autistic people who have, for example, real physical sensory processing anomalies.)

It has the exact same psychological impact as gaslighting. Because other people tell them that their perceived reality is wrong, the "victim" starts doubting their real experiences and perceptions, thinking that they don't "deserve" to struggle with something that is genuinely difficult or harmful for them because accordingto the outside pressure, no it isn't, and thinking that they're "bad" or "unreliable" for having the "wrong" perceptions and "wrong" reactions.

Now, this too is somewhat different from what Marinette is doing: she knows that she's lying. She knows that she's altering – manipulating – Adrien's perception of reality. She's not doing it to make Adrien's mental health worse (although she succeeded with flying colors! Accurately predicting the psychological impact that her actions will have on other people is not Marinette's stong point). She just... seems to think that she knows what's "best for Adrien", and it's what she (and Gabriel???!) wants for him. It's not consciously malevolent, but it betrays how much she views Adrien the same way Gabriel did. She loves Adrien (or perhaps her idea of Adrien), but she obviously doesn't respect him.

There really should be a word for that kind of behavior and the effect it has.It's not enabling (like Nathalie is) because it's not done with intention and knowledge, but it's somewhere close and I think its effects are actually close to being the same as gaslighting but it is done unintentionally.

It reminds me for example of my experience in 4th grade where I was being bullied but everyone insisted that He was a good boy, just a little naughty. It was mostly mean comments he made to me when no adults were around, but talking about the situation made the behavior diminish and deviant and made me feel like I was exaggerating. And a friend at university had a classmate who followed him everywhere and turned to look at him during classes, but when he tried to talk about it the response was to ignore him because it only made him feel uncomfortable but it wasn't really doing anything and this stalker was known as a "quiet boy".

LB, the heroine Adrien admires and loved, and Marinette, the girlfriend he trusts, both knowing that Gabriel was at least controlling (I don't think she knew the actual degree of abuse) decided to tell him that he was a hero. That is not meant to gaslitgh Adrien But certainly here he is forcing Gabriel's reputation (a good man) to compete against Adrien's personal experience (who only now seems to be understanding that what was happening was not normal and could be abuse) And from personal experience in these situations one tends to defer to the opinion of the majority because what is happening does not seem like a big deal and you are probably the one who is wrong.

Marinette may not be psychologically manipulating Adrien but there is no denying that her lie has a serious and damaging effect on his psyche with an effect similar to gaslight Because now Adrien has to believe that he was wrong in his conclusions and that in fact his perception of reality is wrong.

Yeah that's the tricky thing, Marinette is not intending to hurt Adrien, she's lying in an attempt to spare his feelings, in fact. But it still has the same effect as gaslighting, even though her intentions are better.

[i-like-anything-water]

As someone who enjoys a good Chloenette fic, I have to ask: How do you think an evil Chloenette situation would occur. (My computer won't make question marks...) Mostly asking because, let's face it, Chloe and Marinette DESERVE the chance to become villains and rule Paris together!

Hello!

Ooh, evil chlonette! There's numerous ways to write/execute it, but if I had to choose (I'm actually planning an anti-hero/corruption-ish arc for them for my chlonette verse) I'd make Chloe go corrupted first. She's been akumatized for what, 7 times? And I think there's more to come if the writers won't write her off yet. Anyways, it starts when she's finally had enough and sticking to canon (for a bit), she doesn't have anyone to lean on or let alone talk to. Lila, after obtaining Nooroo, offers her a fresh start as being her right hand woman (again). Chloe accepts, what else can she do at this point? Everything's hazy, confusing, blinding and all she wants is to do something - anything. She gets the peacock miraculous which Lila has already akumatized (she doesn't want Chloe to escape) and since Chloe's been akumatized (her previous ones being very powerful) she doesn't notice the sudden charge of powers that aren't the same with the bee.

The corruption is slow, the magic seeps into her the more she fights and wears the Peafowl miraculous until she finally struggles whenever she's de-transformed. It becomes a lifeline and slowly, her memories start becoming hazy. Her emotions are both all over the place but it's pushed at the back of her mind. She's slowly stopping being Chloe, and becoming what Lila wants - a weapon. But it's gonna backfire in the long run cause while Chloe is losing some of her memories, it gives her less inhibitions to anything. Like her obsession with Marinette and Ladybug.

I had two possible endings for it. Either Chloe is 'saved' or she's managed to defeat (debating if I should have it as death or keep it PG) most of the heroes and toys with Ladybug. Ladybug is frustrated and angry and just close to getting akumatized herself. But whenever the butterfly gets too close and she's struggling to fight it, Chloe snatches it off.

"Stop. Succumb to it willingly. You don't have to keep on fighting me, Ladybug. Become my other half and together we can rule Paris with no limitations."

Lila scoffs the first time Chloe explained her reason, saying she was still obsessed with the red clad hero even before she was offered the peafowl miraculous. Chloe doesn't budge, and Lila can't lose a valuable asset so she doesn't push. For now.

I want the corruption for Ladybug to be confusing until it's blinding. Why is Chloe stopping her from getting akumatized? Why is she not finishing her off and taking her miraculous? Why is she taking her time? Why is Chloe not acting like Chloe?

During their fights and interactions, they talk. They spit poisoned words and cusses and Chloe is thrilled. Thrilled that Ladybug does have darkness within her. Thrilled that her obsession wasn't misplaced and if she played her cards right, Ladybug would be obsessed with her.

Once she's fallen (maddeningly) in love with Chloe, she accepts the butterfly and together they (easily) take down Lila and rule Paris. Very slow burn-ish.

That's one of my ideas so far. There's another one but it's a Chloe Redemption after a corruption arc (kinda?). Thanks for the ask, this was interesting!

[internetgiraffekid1673]

I Had Miraculous Ladybug Thoughts, Specifically the Chloe Lila Alliance Situation, and I'm Making It Your Problem! I am So Sorry!

Just. Read the title of this post. I am the most biased person you could have on this topic. You've been warned.

Okay, so. Chloe. If you are in the ML fandom, first off, my condolences, we shall suffer together. Second off, you know that Chloe is incredibly divisive. On the one hand, she's an absolute a**hole to everyone around her at any point in the series that is not season 2 and parts of season 3. On the other hand, it is clear that she has no adults teaching her how to not be an a**hole or regulating her behavior because the only people who have the necessary authority should not have ever been parents.

And then you have that whole thing in season 2 where they started to explain her awfulness and gave her the bee miraculous and she started getting better and developing a support structure, and then she stopped being allowed to have the bee miraculous and dove headfirst off the deep end. This frustrates pretty much the entire fandom. On the Chloe hate side, you wonder why they were wasting time with this. On the Chloe love side, you just got baited, and you're annoyed as heck, and you also are wondering why they wasted your time with this.

But fine, okay, it's dumb, but whatever, the fanfiction can work with this. What the fanfiction has a MUCH harder time working with is Chloe and Lila forming an unholy alliance over their mutual hatred of Marinette and Ladybug. Because the problem here is, it's redundant, it doesn't make sense, and makes Lila even more of a Mary Sue.

Tangent warning: YEAH I SAID IT! I think Lila is a Mary Sue. You don't have to think that. My definition of a Mary Sue is "a character that warps the fabric of the story around them without it making any sense because the author likes/hates/pities/has other strong emotion about this character/ too much to care about a coherent narrative." Not everybody defines a Mary Sue this way, but by this definition, Lila is a Mary Sue. Everyone immediately loses their brain cells around her despite being compassionate and sometimes intelligent individuals who will kill for Marinette in most other scenarios. Nonsensical story warping just because the author said so. Tangent aside:

What this alliance does is it gives you two manipulative lying b*tches who willingly get akumatized to further their petty schemes and are out to destroy Marinette and Ladybug and are weirdly possessive of but don't actually seem to care for Adrien. There's really no point in having two. They occupy the same narrative niche and it is awkward and stupid and I DO NOT LIKE IT. Neither does most of the fandom it seems, because this alliance rarely appears in fanfiction.

There are a couple default solutions in fanfiction:

1. Redeem Chloe. I like this solution. I like Chloe, I think she's entertaining, and I think her interactions with other characters as a good guy are especially entertaining, I think she brings a lot of valuable skills and perspective to the cast as a good guy, I think she has a lot of reasons for being an a**hole that should be properly addressed, and I think the reasons her redemptipn arc got aborted were stupid. Most fanfiction goes the route of having redeemed Chloe viscerally hate Lila too, because Chloe goes after enemies with passion and her whole heart. This is a clean solution, but not great if you don't like Chloe all that much or are trying to make it canon compliant (best of luck to you, canon is all over the place).

2. Only focus on one as a villain and yeet the other out of the story. If Chloe is the villain, set the story during the time that Lila was off being Cerise or wandering around Paris or whatever, or before she showed up. If Lila is the villain, give Chloe an unrelated reason to decide she's not dealing with that today, thank you very much. Usually used in salt fics to dunk on whichever character grinds your gears more without unwanted interruptions. I like salt fics, and this is also a good clean solution. Having both of them is redundant, so just remove one. For Lila, it makes sense because she's a Mary Sue and writing her is annoying, so pretending she never existed is a great fix to that. For Chloe, it makes sense because "lying manipulative ladybug hating b*tch" only really starts being her archetype after the writers screwed up her character with a million inconsistincies. Before that, she was more of a "comically loud, bossy, really obssessive fangirl b*tch," so Lila just works better for certain plots. Downside is that you can't focus on Chloe-Lila interactions, and you sometimes have to do a bit of finagling to figure out how to remove them from a situation they would ordinarily be VERY invested in.

3. Make them hate each other. This is one of my favorite solutions because I have a weakness for villain rivalries that are equal parts comedic and dramatic, but bias aside, this absolutely works. They both want Adrien's sole, undivided attention, and, prior to aforementioned screwing over of Chloe's character, Chloe is the world's biggest Ladybug stan, and Lila is her number 1 hater. They also both have a weird power over the adults in the story that two 14 year old girls really shouldn't have. All these factors make it very easy to guess they would clash. Watch as they try to destroy each other! This plays into the "they both suck, but it's different flavors of suck," and makes those flavors mix BADLY together. The one downside is that it is hard to not make this the central focus of the story, because both of them are so over the top that they're absolutely going to drown out most other going ons, and this is technically supposed to be about Marinette and Adrien. It also erases some of the storylines you can get from an actually thought out alliance.

4. Redeem Lila. I have only seen this in one place, but it is a prominent place and that's more places than my suggestion on this whole ordeal. The prominent place being the Scarlet Lady AU by the very talented and lovely ZoeOneesame. Her take on it was basically:

"Chloe in this AU has the ladybug miraculous, and Chloe sucks at her job, so Lila's ladybug hatred is justified. Marinette is in love with Chat and isn't involved in the ladybug drama, so Lila has no reason to hate her. Adrien is both much smarter and much more active in this AU, so he wouldn't deal with Lila in the same hands-off way. Everybody else is also smarter in this AU and would probably know Lila was lying and also not care because they are forgiving and compassionate. So Lila's lies would most likely get called out, she would have the freedom and desire to figure out who she is beneath the lies, and she would have a justified hatred of Scarlet Lady matched by other characters in the AU, and would probably band together with them."

And thus, no filter, vindictive good guy Lila was born! Again, I have only seen this in Scarlet Lady, but it is amazing over there, so I had to talk about it. Redeeming Lila is an unconventional choice for sure, but I think if you arrange for circumstances where Lila would rather ally with the heroes than the villains, then you can get a lot of mileage out of her people-reading/manipulation skills helping out the heroes while possibly scaring the crap out of them at the same time. This has basically all the same downsides as the Chloe redemption though. It's not fun to do if you're here for Lila salt, and it's ABSOLUTELY not canon compliant.

Now. You may have noticed that nobody who writes fanfiction for this show does the canon Chloe-Lila alliance. This is for a myriad of aforementioned reasons: it's redundant, it continues the confusion of Chloe's character arc, and Lila is a Mary Sue, so anything that involves her tends to be frustrating. But, I think there is a way to make it work, so I'm writing about it.

First of all, don't do what canon did where 6 just have Lila teach Chloe how to lie. Take full advantage of the fact that they are two very different types of a**hole. They can ally for the same reasons: they both are super possesive of Adrien and are raging about him getting together with Marinette. And while I don't like the arc of Marinette being a trash and controlling guardian who shows inordinate favoritism to Alya and Zoe and literally nobody else because she's gay for them, you can still do that and have them both hate Ladybug too. I don't like that plot beat, mostly because it's never really addressed that Marinette is in fact a bad guardian outside of some light sulking from Chat, but it can work. She's a 14 year old girl in way over her head with no adults left to help (except the kwamis, but they don't really count because they are very unhelpful). It makes sense that she wouldn't do a good job at first. But whatever their reasons for teaming up, lean into the fact that Lila is a two-faced secretively awful person while Chloe is an in-your-face publicly awful person. From there, it depends on the tone you're going for.

Chloe is a great villain for humor because she's so loud and dramatic. She can get away with saying and doing really insane and rude stuff on the grounds that she's insane and rude (and also rich and powerful). People don't have any expectations for Chloe to be nice or rational, so she can do stuff like try and write a Queen Banana character into the class film and be met with annoyance and frustration rather than outrage and shock. So if you're going a lighthearted route, let Chloe be the one who does all the public legwork for their schemes, and let her be absolutely over the top about it.

On the other hand, Chloe can also be threatening in a far more tangible way than Lila. Lila can make people think you're a bit of a jerk, but it takes a lot of work for her to come close to getting Marinette expelled, even with all her Mary Sueness to help. Chloe can just look at the principal and say "My dad will fire you and remove all school funding if you don't expel her." Chloe won't make people dislike Marinette because nobody likes her, but she can physically hurt Marinette in ways that Lila can't. So if you're going for drama, you can lean into that. Chloe is in a completely different social class than everyone else and has actual power.

Either way, let Chloe be a complete drama queen who is publicly out to get Marinette, because there isn't anything anyone can do about it.

Meanwhile, let Lila work in the background. Lila has never been a comedic villain, only getting introduced after the show had taken a turn for the more dramatic, so don't bother. Leave that to Chloe's antics. Let Lila be the actual threat who is driving their plans. A lot of the reason Chloe was manageable while Lila never was is because Chloe's rage tends to be directionless and impulsive. She has a short temper that can easily be triggered, but also easily soothed, and she doesn't have any thought out plans or long form schemes. She just does whatever she thinks will make her happy in the moment. Have Lila be the one who convinces her to think in the long-term, and who comes up with an overarching plot to get rid of Marinette, adding a sense of real tension to the situation. Sure, before Chloe could have you expelled on a whim, but she also would have stopped bothering the second Adrien paid attention to her. Lila will help Chloe drop that boundary.

Lila also has the advantage of people actually liking her and being willing to do things for her without threatening or bribing them. Lila can do things like make it so Marinette doesn't have any of her friends around to help in an emergency. She can make it so people believe Chloe might actually be justified in her crusade against Marinette this time. She can plant seeds of doubt and distrust and she can socially isolate Marinette in ways Chloe can't. Make people love and believe in her instead, slowly destroy Marinette's support system, and so on. It not only is really dramatic and upsetting, it basically leaves Mari with just Adrien and Chat to rely on, which is FANTASTIC ship fuel if that's your jam. This can also let you have some other prominent characters come to the fore. Have some Kagami focus. Have some Luka focus. Bring in Socqueline and Felix and see how that changes things.

Point is, between these two, you could have a genuine, non-redundant threat that you can get emotional mileage out of. Lila is on one side turning all of Mari's friends against her and scheming to destroy her in the long term. Chloe is on the other side threatening Marinette's lifestyle---her bakery, her school, her fashion career, her public image, her existence in Paris---anything that can be damaged by the Mayor and the Style Queen is under attack. And then you have Hawkmoth on the other end, throwing akumas in her face and forcing her to make impossible choices. I would imagine Lila also gets akumatized on purpose whenever she needs a little extra help, while Chloe just gets egged on and pushed off the deep end by Lila whenever Lila thinks it'd be advantageous. So that trifecta is super genuinely threatening. But you can also have Chloe being a really stupid drama queen whose fits of rage can still be silly and poorly thought out, even with Lila helping her. And you can have some really heartwarming stuff as the people left in Marinette's support system band together and become even closer to get rid of these two once and for all. I just think this plot beat has a lot of untapped potential if the writers didn't make then fulfill the same narrative role, and I haven't really seen it explored yet.

Feel free to use this idea in fanfic, tell me that it sucks and would be bad, or ignore me, I mostly just needed to write this down!

If the mood strikes me or multiple people express interest (yeah right), I will make a (probably much shorter) post explaining how you can redeem both of them effectively and also why I think that would be bad in most circumstances.

Congratulations if you read this whole rant, now please go to sleep. Please. So much please.

[existentialburden]

some episodes of this damn show have me angrily ranting to my poor wife about the injustices done to a character who's regressed, character-wise, with no clear reason, and make bullet point lists talking about each small inconsistency in personality

some episodes make me stim until I have to lay down

[cyberbatuniversitygiant]

Agree. Fucking agree.

Most of my fanmade villains are based around the idea of corrupting Marinette into a monster of resentment who sees nothing but the injustice and selfishness in the world, willing to do anything to prevent anyone from hurting her again.

Wether it be to stand at the top of the cosmos, or erasing everything permanently.

And even if she's stopped, she would never find true happiness again. Too afraid of trusting in anyone ever again.

Anyone else have other suggestions?

Marinette corruption arc

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

EVEN MORE SPOILERS FOR SEASON 6

I figured since I already read it, I'd give my thoughts on the recent interview Astruc and Thibaudeau took part in.

Due to incompatibility with the new animation engine, SAMG will not be working on the next seasons of ‘Miraculous’. The series is now being developed entirely in France, with the integration of Dwarf Animation.

Okay, props for no more outsourcing, even if I'm not sure what this means for the other ZAG shows.

Season 6 is considered to be “a new beginning”, aside from being a new story arc. It is sometimes referred to by the writers as Season 1.

I'm sure that isn't confusing to the executives at all. Also, maybe don't imply you're starting from scratch when you're already reusing the plot of the main villain using the Butterfly Miraculous.

The writing team already has concrete ideas for how Seasons 7, 8 and 9 will begin and end. They also have ambitions to make it to a Season 12, only if the support of viewers and executives allows them to do so. With this, they emphasize the fact that they would not continue with the show if it were no longer needed or interesting.

So basically, they're planning to keep this up for as long as they can until someone pulls the plug.

The opening of the sixth season is still undecided. They are still discussing whether they will change the musical arrangement or not. Thomas also considers the possibility of making a brand-new theme song. A song has been confirmed for S6. They have the music, the arrangement and a female singer. The character remains unknown.

Imagine how funny it would be if they brought back the woman who sang for Marinette in the movie instead of having Cristina Vee sing again.

Despite leaving Paris at the end of ‘Revolution’ (5x23), Chloé Bourgeois will return in Season 6.

Putting aside all the things I've said about her "damnation arc", what is even the point of bringing her back at this point? She has no powers, no influence, no allies, and isn't a threat of any kind. This makes her not being the next Hawkmoth make even less sense, becuse she has more of a reason to hate Ladybug than Lila does.

Also, with the news that Chloe is coming back, this means that she essentially escaped punishment or at least found a way to rebound like Lila did. So that's a grand total of ZERO villains who actually got punished for their actions after five seasons. I'm starting to think Ladybug and Cat Noir really suck at their jobs.

Sebastien Thibadeau: “[Cerise] (IOTA: I'm still calling her Lila for simplicity's sake) is a villain without costume. She is a villain all the time. There is a reason why, but this reason, neither I nor Astruc will reveal to you yet.” Interviewer: “You mean you already intend to tell it?” Thomas Astruc: “Yes. And you know what, we have already told it, but you haven’t noticed.”

Translation: Ladies and gentlemen, LET'S GET READY FOR RETCOOOOOONNNNS!

Seriously, we are approaching the sixth season of this show. It has been eight years since Lila first appeared all the way back in "Volpina", and we still know nothing about her other than the fact that she has some three moms for some reason. You can't pull the whole "This is something you need to rewatch to understand!" excuse because the last two seasons hinged on breaking the rules about Sentimonsters.

Speaking of, I love how this comment about Lila accidentally implies that Gabriel never did anything evil when he wasn't Hawkmoth/Shadowmoth/Monarch. All that emotional abuse and isolation Adrien suffered was all out of love!

Thomas Astruc on Chloe redemption arc: “We put the characters in situations, and then we say to ourselves: “what would be the logic?” How would the character logically react in “such and such” a situation? And we tried, we tried everything. But every time, we say to ourselves: “if we write this, it’ll be wrong”. There’ll be no reason, it’ll come out of nowhere, the fact that she’ll face something nice and say: “Oh, I’ve been horrible, Marinette what have I done! From now on, I’ll be...” No, nonsense. I understand people’s desire for Chloe to be nice. I’d like that too. But I’d like it if in real life, people with a lot of power suddenly started doing nice things. But Chloé has no interest in changing. She has no reason to change, unfortunately.”

Ah, yes because Gabriel (Global terrorist and abusive parent), Felix (Betrayed Ladybug and temporarily wiped out all of humanity on a whim), Nathalie (Willing accomplice to Gabriel) Andre (corrupt politician and Chloe's primary enabler), Sabrina (Willing accomplice to Chloe) all had compelling reasons to change their ways.

Also, "I've been horrible, what have I done?"

MY BROTHER IN CHRIST, THAT'S HOW VIRTUALLY EVERY REDEMPTION ON THIS SHOW IS EXECUTED.

The fact that he's seriously acting like he actually wanted to write a redemption arc is insulting. Not only does it ignore all the things he's said to fans who were upset at the turn of events, but it makes no sense for him to take this stance because he's a writer. If Chloe turning a new leaf is too strange of an idea, then write an actual character arc allowing her to progress to a state where she recognizes what she's done is wrong. You control the character for God's sake! It's not like you're training a dog to stop humping the couch. You can change things to make a redemption arc possible.

In other words, Astruc is either lying to save his ass, or THIS IS WHAT THOMAS ASTRUC ACTUALLY BELIEVES about writing characters.

Sebastien Thibadeau talks about Andre's character development: In contrast to Chloe, “Andre Bourgeois evolved as a character because we had already imagined a back story. He had the potential to change, and that’s where the beautiful scene comes from — I think it’s magnificent — between Gabriel and himself on the roof of the Grand Palace, where he says: “But Gabriel, what’s become of us? We’ve forgotten the kids we used to be”. But we [writers] know what kids they used to be, and we’d like to tell the story one day, to show what young kids they were, when they were struggling through Paris and weren’t yet what you’ve come to know in the series. He’s sad about what’s happening to his daughter [Chloe], and he’s trying to change it, but he can’t. He is proof that a character can change.”

This. This right here is what cinched it for me. I've tried for years not to say it because it's a word that has been flung around a lot over these last few years, but I feel like this little snippet is enough of a reason for me to say it.

These writers are sexist.

They may not believe it, but whether they intended for it or not, they wrote a story arc where a grown man was shown to have more sympathetic qualities than his daughter. How the hell can you defend it in a way that doesn't highlight the misogyny that this show runs on?

The fact that they gush over how much "potential" Andre had right after saying how that same kind of potential wasn't enough of a reason to attempt a redemption arc with Chloe really shows how confusing their priorities are. I'm sorry to keep saying this, but for a show that takes a heavy anti-capitalist philosophy, it seems like the members of the 1% are the characters who get the most depth and sympathy... unless you're under 18 and lack a Y chromosome, that is.

A meeting will be set up in the coming weeks to decide on whether or not to make a live-action for ‘Miraculous’, Thomas Astruc reveals.

As a former Arrowverse fan, I'm willing to see this out. Not only did the Netflix One Piece series prove you can make an animated property work in live-action, Ladybug & Cat Noir: The Movie managed to do really well even without the usual writers behind it.

Thomas when asked about Gabriel’s wish in ‘Re-Creation’ (5x26) and whether he brought Emilie back to life: “All the answers are in the episode.”

For the love of--STOP SAYING THAT!

You keep claiming that we just need to rewatch the episode to understand things, but between the continuity errors and abandoned subplots, it's hard to tell what's important and what isn't. Either say "No comment" or give us an honest answer.

If people are still confused about how the season ended after almost a year, and you keep giving answers like this:

Maybe you need to change the way you tell the story.

Astruc when asked about ‘The Supreme’: “Oh, if only you knew... Nothing we do is meaningless.”

Sebastien Thibadeau on Season 7: “Once you’ve seen the start of season 7, I can swear you’ll watch season 6 a second time. That’s all I can say.”

Because it'll make Season 6 look like a masterpiece by comparison?

Thomas Astruc on the worldbuilding: There are Kwamis and Renlings, what makes you think there aren’t others [creatures]?

I swear, by the time we get to Season 10, we're going to get stuff like aliens, demons and talking mushrooms, or at least something ludicrous like that.

Zoe had a love at first sight when she met Marinette in ‘Sole Crusher’ (4x07), they confirm.

Of course! That's why it wasn't framed any differently from something like the umbrella scene and Zoe showed absolutely no signs of attraction to Marinette! It's genius!

Executives had Thomas write several alternative concepts for ‘Miraculous’, very different from what we know today or even the early PV. Among them, “a concept where Ladybug is the head of a group of superheroines, like Sailor Moon. There was no love story.”

Can you imagine a world without the Love Square?

The script writers’ favorite episode is ‘Simpleman’ (4x19) as it represents a personal, work and family attachment. Marinette’s grandfather, Roland Dupain, is inspired by Thomas Astruc’s grandfather.

Okay, either Astruc had a complicated relationship with his grandpa or he's been dead for years. While I understand that older generations have outdated views (for example, my great-grandmother yelled at me for saying I wanted to learn Japanese because "They tried to kill us!"), the fact that a caricture of a grumpy old man was based on his grandpa is a little concerning.

Also, between this and Sabine being based off an old flame of his, this only makes the theory that Chloe is based off a real person Astruc knew more plausible.

Astruc: “This is why our work is so difficult. We have to manage to bring in this generation of younger ones, and at the same time, we have to satisfy the generation that was here before and that grows with the series.”

First, if you're trying to please older fans, maybe don't get into fights with them on Twitter.

Second, you made a thread after "Simpleman" aired where you insulted fans for not getting the "meta" element to the episode and compared them to the character you just said was based on your grandfather.

You've also been burning away a lot of the older fans' goodwill over the years. Trust me, I have a few examples.

Despite sharing a similar appearance, the symbol on Nino’s T-shirt is not related to Hack-San.

Okay, is this a fan theory I missed back when Season 4 was airing? Why would anyone draw that conclusion?

Thomas Astruc talks about Season 6: “I’ll say it sincerely, I was very doubtful at the end of Season 5. I said to myself: “if we were to continue, how would we exceed?” Well, we did. It’s been a great season. The new writers have brought us a lot of great stuff. All the episodes we’ve written in Season 6 are fabulous. Each episode is on point, there is no unnecessary lines. All the scenes are really interesting, really well-crafted.”

Translation: Tons of filler, bad comedy, reused Akumas, and more Love Square drama that we're trying to claim hasn't been done before.

Thomas when asked if Marinette will get akumatized: “We never give any information about what may or may not happen.”

JUST. SAY. NO. COMMENT.

There are many important details throughout the series that no one has noticed. Thomas says that when we see the next seasons, we’ll think, “Oh, the writers had it all planned.”

You know, like how Season 3 established that Sentimonsters can be sent out of control by Cataclysm a few episodes before Adrien, a Sentimonster, gets hit by a Cataclysm and is affected in a different way. It was all planned from the beginning.

The Ladybug PV was an animation test and was not intended to be public. Jeremy Zag decided to leak it himself.

Honestly? Dick move on Zag's part. You have to wonder how pissed off Astruc was.

According to Thomas Astruc, what the ‘Miraculous’ series is today represents only 5% of what he wrote in the original bible he presented to Jeremy Zag. “The universe has evolved a lot since. I don’t know if the ideas I put there will be reused someday. It was very extensive.”

Thomas Astruc and Sebastien Thibadeau discuss the parallels between Marinette and Gabriel: Astruc: “Gabriel’s personal back story is the cause of his misery, not his will. And above all, it creates a beautiful mirror with Marinette, which is what’s interesting. They both have a lot of love for Adrien, they’re both designers, they both have a Miraculous, but it’s other choices.” Thibadeau: “That’s what makes it a great hero-villain contrast. Even if they don’t know it from the start, they have a real point in common. As we see at the end of Season 5, they both love Adrien. Except there’s one who does it by doing the right thing, and then there’s another who does it by doing the wrong thing, hurting people, to get there.”

And the one who did the wrong thing by hurting people ended up winning. What does that say about the contrast?

------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's it for the interview. I have to say Season 6 does not look pretty so far.

[zoe-oneesama]

I also think the recent ep where Mari is scolded for not improving Chloe's behavior as a class rep, is not fair. A class rep is there to be the voice for the students and act as a form of communication, not mentor or educate another child. Mari also became class rep to stop Chloe's bullying, not reform her or give her therapy. I can't believe they (the class) actually gave the class rep position to Lila, even Marinette has done so much for them, and little Miss Liar is only full of hot air. Side eye

The Class Rep thing in "Revelation" was so dumb in all aspects, like, FIRST of all-

Lila cannot seriously be bringing up that it's "undiplomatic" that they held elections without her when she wasn't even going to Francois Dupont yet, are you trying to look me in the face and tell me "Volpina" happened before FREAKING "Darkblade"?! (And obviously no one brings up this fact when she's talking nonsense)

WHY is Bustier even entertaining this garbage when there's two weeks of school left?! Like, sorry Lila, try again in high school if you can even get in with your attendance record. The only things left for the Class Rep to even do is the Student -Teacher Career Course planning which sounds super important and like a really dumb thing to suddenly hand over to two people who haven't been preparing for it in the slightest!

Marinette is running on the "Actually this is pointless, I've done great as a class president because it's actually not my job to change Chloe for the better, especially when Bustier, her parents, and Ladybug herself couldn't get her to pull her head out of her ass, so I'm going to spend my time on things that actually matter and will have results" and legit why does anyone care about "improving Chloe" when in TWO WEEKS they will be at TOTALLY DIFFERENT SCHOOLS and hopefully NEVER have to see her in person again?! Though realistically she should be running on the "we have two weeks left why are we even here" campaign.

And Lila is running on the "Chloe can change if someone just worked with her instead of spending all their time on their own romance like a selfish jerk" platform and the class eats this up just because Chloe is "willing" to be Lila's deputy. Except Lila has been hanging out with and being friends with Chloe since freaking "Penalteam"! And guess who's still an asshole despite your "influence" Lila?! OH RIGHT, YOUR NEW DEPUTY! Hell, "Adoration" JUST happened 3 episodes ago where Chloe was framing Marinette for theft! Your "influence" isn't worth SHIT to anyone paying attention!

Now, Lila's only going for the President role so she can fuck everyone over in "Confrontation", so obviously this stupid campaign was going to happen and Lila was going to win just to set up the Big Bang where Lila exposes herself. Who cares that it stretches suspension of belief past it's limits, that's just the Gold Standard when it comes to Lila schemes.

Anyway, can't wait for her grand plans as The Villain of the next arc. -_-

[trashart00]

Less than 12 hours until the release of “The Tortured Poets Department”!

Hence, I present to you, “The Tortured Catboy Department”

Track List:

SIDE A: Deux Semaines (feat Ladybug) / The Tortured Catboy Department / My Lady Abandons Only Her Favourite Partners / Down Bad

SIDE B: So Long, London / But Daddy I Love Her / Fresh Out the Slammer / Akuma !!! (feat Monarch)

SIDE C: Guilty As Sin? / Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me / Even Ladybug Can’t Fix This / loml

SIDE D: I Can Do It With a Broken Heart / The Smallest Man Who Ever Lived / The Cataclysm / Adrien Agreste

Bonus Tracks: The Black Cat / Solitude / Doppelgänger / Tell-Tail Heart

(Love how so many of the original track names still work)

My takes of what each song is about/inspired by under cut (but, if you feel like it, tell me yours :D)

I’m picturing all of these to be from Adrien’s perspective so they reflect mostly his version of the situations rather than the objective reality (especially the Laybug centered ones)

Deux Semaines (feat Ladybug): This one would focus on the sequence in Multiplication where Monarch doesn’t attack and how LadyNoir’s relationship recovers from the events of Season 4.

TTCD: Kept the “Catboy” singular because while there are multiple Catboy identities, there is only one boy underneath them all. Hence while I think it would be about him just stating his issues with everything, it would also focus on loneliness and how his department is understaffed :(

MLAOHFP: All of the Season 4 LadyNoir separation arc angst, with the “Favourite” being a callback to Risk (and kinda a jab at Rena because he thinks that she’s really her favourite, but y’ know, she didn’t abandon her so Rena can’t be her actual favourite)

Down Bad: Mainly about how Chat’s love for LB makes him excuse her behaviors, but also makes him act out (maybe a reference to Elation).

SL,L: About the whole arc of Gabriel sending Adrien to London and all of the memories he would have surrounding this ordeal - key point, not “So Long, Paris” because he didn’t want to leave, and in the end he comes back to a changed world.

BDILH: This one’s either about the Chat Blanc breakup or Gabriel’s dislike of Marinette in Season 5 (or both, with maybe a line about how he feels like this has happened before)

FOTS: Adrien realizing his father is a Bad Person.

Akuma !!! (feat Monarch): This one would be like a song about his daily life and then the chorus would start with a shout of “Akuma!!!” and it would switch to him as Chat Noir. I feel like it would start out with normal life being boring/hero life being fun but as it goes on he grows exhausted. Monarch has a rap verse.

Guilty As Sin?: Chat Blanc centeric - would ask who is to blame for the destruction of the world, like is it Chat because he lost control or Hawkmoth because he took advantage of his son’s emotion?

WAoLOM: Chat Blanc centric at first (like a villain song) but ends with Adrien reflecting on the events of Evolution-Destruction-Multiplication-PS night

ELCFT: I think it would be about his relaction ship with his father and how he wishes there was something he could do to go back to how they were when Emilie was alive but there’s no easy fix and his father keeps on getting worse and worse after any attempt.

loml: A song for Marinette with a bittersweet air - she’s the love of his life but he can’t tell her everything, and she can’t tell him everything either

ICDIWaBH: CatWalker centric - him going back to Ladybug in Kuroneko.

TSMWEL: I actually have three for this one - 1. About Gabriel and his need to domineer because he feels small and powerless. 2. About Adrien feeling small and insignificant. 3.About Plagg because he’s a smol boi (it would be like a lighthearted, cheeky song, like when you sing to your pet about how adorable they are)

The Cataclysm: Literally about how he cataclysmed Monarch, but also about how the event impacted his perception of self.

Adrien Agreste: Ending the album with a song that’s his own name :o.

Now for the variants:

The Black Cat: This one has Chat on the cover and the song is mostly about his bad luck. ‘I Love You It’s Ruining My Life” works both directed at Ladybug and his father.

Solitude: With Chat Blanc on the cover, this one’s about his mother. I think the “You Don’t Get To Tell Me About Sad” is pretty self-explanatory.

Doppelgänger: CatWalker is on this one, his song would be about how he may literally be the same person but he doesn’t fully feel like himself. He had to repress a lot of himself to be CatWalker hence I thought “Am I Allowed To Cry?” fit him really well (especially with Plagg not giving him the time to fully recover before he had to jump back in). Please note the crossed out name (unlike Chat Blanc) because he’s reinventing himself.

Tell-Tail Heart: This one has Ladybug on the cover - wait she’s not a Catboy?? The song is titled “Tell-Tail Heart” as a reference to Edgar Allan Poe’s “Tell Tale Heart” and would explore Chat’s perspective of Ladybug’s guilt for keeping secrets, how any excuse she makes is ultimately unimportant because she would do it either way. The fact that this is the only song title with a pun references how Chat tries to lighten the mood and avoid serious conversations, and the “Tail” is supposed to refer to Rena Rouge. The flowers she’s holding are meant to be foxgloves which symbolise secrets and insincerity (they’re also poisonous and damage the heart :)). I also really liked the “Old Habits Die Screaming” for her as it could mean both Chat Noir’s love for her being an old habit that he cannot get rid of, but also her habit of keeping things from him (especially with how she does it again at the end of season 5) being something she can’t stop. It is also him being able to see that, despite what she tells him, her “Heart” is tells him otherwise.

(also would like to point out that he wouldn’t mention Rena by name, he’s upset, not evil)