#Kuro Neko salt

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Keep hearing people say maribug keep asking adricat if he's ok and he keep saying he's ok instead of telling her his problem but I don't remember it happened more than once in s4 in Rockettear but even then the circumstances of that episode did warrant the "nothing" answer he gave her unless he want to tell her that "nino tell me you let nino and alya know each other identity" which will reveal adricat identity. So when else did she ask? about the thing in hack-san, I think another credit goes to alya since she's the one who bring the topic to maribug who seems to be blissfully unaware that her leaving without telling adeicat that she send subtitute would be a problem.

I didn't get into this side of things in my other post because it was long and I wanted to focus on why Chat Noir's behavior was so frustrating, but this ask brings up the other big reason why the season four conflict was such a frustrating and terribly written plot line. Specifically, the part of your ask where you point out that Maribug seems blissfully unaware that her actions are having a negative impact on Chat Noir until someone points it out to her.

Yes, she is presented as blissfully unaware of this and every other interpersonal conflict we're given in season four. Your ask treats this as a failing on Maribug's part as if she should have obviously realized that she was in the wrong, but that's the whole problem. Telling kids - telling anyone really - that they should just magically know what others need is a frankly terrible life lesson as that's just not how the world works. You cannot just assume that everyone will have the same view of the world as you do and instantly pick up on the same issues as you do. That is the path to easily avoidable frustration and conflict. It also teaches people to assume that their view of the world is inherently correct when that is rarely the case. We often don't know the whole story and the other person's point of view may end up being equally or even more valid. This issue is extremely present in season four as Marinette has legitimate reasons to behave the way she does, which I'll get into in a bit.

If Marinette were written as feeling guilty about how she was treating Chat Noir, then this would be a different story. She'd be way more in the wrong and would shoulder a much greater portion of the blame. But as is? She has no idea that she's doing anything wrong. And until someone takes the time to tell her that her actions are causing harm, she is going to continue causing harm because she has no idea that she's causing harm.

In fact, I'd argue that the Alya thing in Hack San is a point in Maribug's favor. Throughout the episode, we see Marinette sending Alya messages on ways to be a good partner to Chat Noir, proving that she does in fact care about him. And then, as soon as Alya says, "You need to talk to Chat Noir," what does Maribug do?

She goes and talks to Chat Noir, giving him a pretty good apology for the problem she now knows she caused. Because, shockingly, Maribug doesn't actually want to hurt her partner. She also clearly cares about his feelings, making me want to take the season four conflict and tear it into itty bitty pieces because what is the conflict even supposed to be when you write shit like this?

I want to briefly step away from Miraculous and talk about this issue in a broader context via this YouTube short:

This short is from a Vietnamese woman who moved to Germany. Her YouTube channel is about her experiences there, including things like the short above which goes into the differences between what it means to be a dinner guest in Vietnam and what it means to be a dinner guest in Germany. In Vietnam, it's apparently standard for the guests to cook dinner with you where as, in Germany, you're expected to have the meal ready when the guests arrive, making this a situation where it's super easy to come across as rude just by doing what you think is normal.

Society is relatively aware that these types of culture clashes are a thing, but you don't have to be from different cultures to have these types of situations. Every person has their own unique needs and ideas of what "normal" is. The culture they were raised in will affect this, but so will their family, their personal needs, and many other factors. Two people can be raised on the same street and wind up with wildly different world views even though they supposedly share a culture. This is extra true when you add in compounding factors like neurodiversity, which is why it's an exercise in futility to say, "But Maribug should have realized..."

Well, she clearly didn't. And you can't change that she didn't realize whatever you're mad about. All you can do is have someone tell her what she's doing wrong. If she then continues the behavior, go ahead and judge away. But if she immediately corrects it like she did in Hack San? Doesn't that just prove that she truly didn't know that Chat Noir was hurting and would have probably fixed all of his problems if someone just pointed them out to her?

This is only exacerbated by the fact that Marinette's behavior in season four is largely unchanged from her behavior in previous seasons. The only major change is that she revealed her identity to Alya, but as soon as that's pointed out as a problem, she course corrects with an apology. After that, she thinks that everything is okay because why wouldn't she? Chat Noir said it was fine and everything else has been business as usual.

Bringing temp heroes into help as needed? That's been going on since season two. Having these additional members has been vital in multiple battles and there have been plenty of times where Chat Noir took a background role to the temp hero of the day like in Sapotis, Rena Rouge's season two debut. So why would Maribug suddenly think that this dynamic is a problem when it's been working fine for so long? We even had a whole episode about how Chat Noir was still needed in spite of the new heroes back in season three! Or, at least, I think that was Desperada's message? This show is shockingly bad at giving clear lessons.

Keeping guardian knowledge from Chat Noir? That's also been going on since season two and was even treated as a conflict that supposedly got resolved in the episode Syren which was the episode that ended with Master Fu coming to the mansion to talk to Adrien after everything was over.

When I watched that episode, I assumed this meant that Chat Noir was going to be more involved in things like picking the temp heroes. I actually thought this was how we were going to get Queen Bee because I knew she was going to be a thing, but it made no sense for Marinette to pick Chloe for a miraculous. Of course, I was wrong. Nothing changed after Syren. Chat Noir remained nothing more than the comic relief while Ladybug got all the insider info.

To be clear, I think that was a terrible move writing wise, but it doesn't change the fact that this is what they went with. This is the established dynamic. I can't even say that Alya learning Marinette's secret led to something new. She's just taken Marinette's old role while Marinette has taken on Master Fu's old role. This show loves it's status quo and Chat Noir has been at least tolerant of that status quo since Syren, so it's not surprising that Maribug doesn't register that this is a thing that should change and no one bothers to point it out to her even though she has a mentor in Tikki (and Su Han, I guess?) and a confidant in Alya and a whole slew of Kwamis who could also provide insight if they were allowed to do that sort of thing. (Sass and Wayzz were robbed of mentor roles.) Additional blame goes to Plagg because he should absolutely have told Adrien to talk to Ladybug. What is the point of giving these characters mentors who never mentor? It's aggravating in the extreme.

To circle back to the first part of your ask, outside of Hack San and Rocketear, I don't think there are any times when Ladybug invites feedback from Chat Noir unless you want to give credit to the end of Kuro Neko:

Cat Noir: (lands next to her) I've been a really temperamental kitty, m'lady. I didn't realize how much trouble I'd make for you by giving back my Miraculous. Ladybug: (sits closer to him) Just because I don't need you all the time doesn't mean that I don't need you at all, Cat Noir. No one could ever replace you.

Which isn't Maribug inviting him to tell her what's up, but she is clearly willing to listen to him and reassure him, further backing up my point about this conflict being some of the worst writing I've ever had to suffer through. If Maribug always fixes the issue as soon as she learns about it, you are not writing a situation where she's clearly in the wrong. You are writing an easily solved communication issue where she gets blamed for something she clearly doesn't realize she's doing wrong and it is so frustrating!!! I feel so bad for her. The next episode is Penalteam, btw, which starts the battle with this gem:

Ladybug: (laughs) Nice scare tactics, but it's not gonna work. Cat Noir and I are the best at soccer! Cat Noir: (Whispers to Ladybug) I don't know a thing about soccer M'lady. Maybe it's time to call the real team?

And basically just spends the whole episode making Chat Noir seems like a worthless partner while Maribug tries her best to make him - and everyone else - feel special.

Oh, and the episode before Kuro Neko? Well, it's technically Ephemeral, but that got magically overwritten so let's go one further back and we get to Dearest Family, which ends with this:

Cat Noir: (grabs a golden paper crown on the coffee table) Since I'm the king, (wears the crown on his head) would you be my queen, Ladybug? Ladybug: With pleasure, kitty cat! Tradition is tradition!

Oh yes, these two are in such conflict and Maribug does nothing to validate Chat Noir. He's in pain every episode and she's just totally oblivious to it.

If that was what they wrote, then I'd probably agree that we needed more instances of her asking if Chat Noir was okay. But it's not what they wrote. If you look through the list of season four episodes, you'll find that less than half of them deal with the supposed conflict of the season (by my count, only 8 of the 24 episodes before the final actually showcase the conflict and they are not in a logical order in terms of escalation as I tried to demonstrate above). The rest of the episodes flat out ignore it or even straight up work against the conflict like when Ladybug says this to Chat Noir in Guilttrip: "I probably don't tell you this enough, but I couldn't do this without you. And it'd be a lot less fun too."

Seriously, what even is this season? What is the conflict supposed to be? Because it sure as shit isn't Maribug undervaluing Chat Noir, if memory servers, season four sees her validate him more times than any other season. And it isn't her guiltily hiding things from him like so many fanfics claim because we have multiple points of evidence that prove that she's completely oblivious that there even is a conflict. So what conflict are the writers actually trying to write?

What's even more baffling is that none of this logically leads to the loss at the end of the season:

Maribug's new secrets didn't lead to her downfall. The only reason she lost was because of the secret that's always been there - a fact that's never revealed to her - and a freaking evil twin! So why did it matter that Maribug was keeping secrets? This is made even worse by season five maintaining all of the secrets, once again begging the question of what lesson were we trying to teach here???

Chat Noir wasn't needed for the final fight of the season, Maribug only needed the powers of a few of the temp heroes to win, a baffling ending to a season whose focus was Chat Noir feeling unimportant. You could scrap that conflict entirely and the ending would not change. In fact....

Adrien quitting to be nothing more than a good little boy who obeys his father would have actually saved the world from eventually being rewritten. If you think about it, the season four final actually punishes Adrien for being defiant. So does season five as, if Chat Noir had quit, his father would still be alive. I thought this show was supposed to be a romcom, not a tragedy. Why is Adrien being punished for being a hero? Is this supposed to be karma for lying to Ladybug with the whole Catwalker thing?

This shit is why I say I'm a writing salt, character sugar blog. I can't get mad at the characters when they're in such a nonsense story where things never logically tie together. They all deserve so much better.

None of this is meant to imply that ignorance is a blanket excuse for hurting others. Nor is it meant to imply that you have to forgive someone who hurt you just because they didn't mean to. There's a ton of nuance around these topics. But season four acknowledges none of that nuance while creating a situation that desperately needed nuance because there was no clear right and wrong here. Should Maribug work to be more aware of others feelings? Sure, but that journey can only start after she's made aware of her faults and no one ever points them out to her. Does Chat Noir need to work on clearly communicating his needs? Desperately, but no one is teaching him that lesson so he remains a terrible communicator who suffers in silence. What impressively bad writing.

[ilikekidsshows]

There's part of me that wishes you still in ml fandom because there's something that bothered me to no end about Kuro Neko episode in s4, about the whole episode in general but especially so about what Ladybug said at the end of it.

Just because I don't need you all the time doesn't mean that I don't need you at all, Cat Noir.

I couldn't picked out why it's bothering me so much like it should be assuring because she means well, right? but it just make my anxiety skyrocketed?? Maybe it just my weird brain I don't know.

I suppose I'm in the Miraculous saltdom now. Almost everything I say qualifies as salt, but it's also peer support for the people who were let down by this show's retooling.

I think I might have said something about Kuro Neko at some point, because I was, like, still checking out what scenes the fandom posted about the most whenever a new episode dropped during season four. It's what made me realize that Miraculous is a subtanceless show that puts singular moments above having actually consistent themes or story arcs.

I think it was a shitpost about me getting New York Special flashbacks from that line from Marinette, because one of the several things about the New York Special that I have criticized was the fact that it places Cat Noir's usefulness to Ladybug over her care for him.

The thing that brings Cat Noir back to Ladybug in the New York Special wasn't her saying she cares about him, that she wants him around because he's important to her, it was her saying she needed him, that she couldn't be Ladybug without him. Rather than giving Cat Noir words of affirmation, Ladybug unintentionally pressures him with the fate of the world.

It made their reunion hug ring extremely hollow to me.

From what I've heard, Kuro Neko is basically just more of the same. Like, the only improvement is that she lessened the pressure, but it's still about her needing him and not her wanting him. Ladybug's words basically translate to: "you're not as essential as you used to be, but you quitting would still make this job needlessly hard for me," which still aren't words of affirmation.

This guy is her partner and she can't manage the bare minimum of emotional connection and vulnerability to tell him she likes him and wants him around.

No, I don't think you getting anxious about Ladybug pressuring her partner into sticking around instead of telling him how she feels about him is weird. It's a red flag.

[ovyy-pvcure]

Hold up, I've thought of a new reason to hate Kuro Neko because it truly is just the episode that keeps on giving. One of the bigger problems in the episode is Adrien and Plagg's lie and the writers could have sidestepped the whole issue while ending up in the same place by making one small change: have Marinette give the ring to Alya. Because you know who Alya would give the ring to? Adrien.

From Alya's perspective Adrien was not a previous outed holder; he's sweet, protective, snd has physical conditioning from being a fencer making him a perfect partner for her BFF. This would also serve Alya's other main goal in that she can believe once Hawkmoth is out of the way she can reveal the duo's identities after they build a rapport and connection without the roadblock of Adrien being Adrien and causing Marinette to get all tounge tied.

From Marinette's perspective she felt she let Chat down and isn't confident in both her ability and her right to replace him when, as far she knows, he's just another kid trying his best like her. Whom she blew up at causing him to quit.

Under the show's own established rules regarding secret identities since Adrien was given the ring by someone else he can't just show back up as Chat Noir; now he has to be someone else rather than just chosing to be. Canonically what happens is Plagg lies to Marinette and says Chat already picked an alternate if he quit. Then Adrien lies to Ladybug by pretending to be another person - a person she'll love more. This is dishonest irresponsible and, frankly, pretty creepy behavior on their parts unless the lie is one of necessity rather than manipulation.

Admittedly, I'm not totally sure how to get back to Status Quo in one 3 minute Akuma battle, maybe have Ladybug express her doubts and admit to things not being as fun without Chat and have Cat Walker say he'll ask Chat to reconsider for her. Chat shows up at the end to absolve Ladybug himself without an apology needed between them and instead floats an idea for next time they need to gather a bunch of temporary Miraculous while low on time. Light banter, end card done.

[motherofplatypus]

The best part of the London Special was when Ladybug said "Its London time!" and spent 99% of the special being anywhere but London.

[ovyy-pvcure]

Loathe as I am to revive S4 drama this is the episode that convinced me I was 100% correct to drop the show after Season 3 and this post more or less sums up why: it's the kind of thematic mess that happens when writers are unfocused, conflicted, and either rushed or terribly unskilled leading to a very frustrating confusing watching experience. Kuro Neko is such a clustered thematic mess that it is nearly impossible to put my thoughts down on it in an organized manner, but let me try anyway.

Chat Noir's stated problems with his partnership with Ladybug -the ones he actually says, not the one the show puts in his mouth later but put a pin on that cause I'm coming back for it-are not entirely without merit. To summarize Chat feels undervalued, untrusted, and like he has no voice in what used to be, if not an equal partnership, one where he could speak up or contribute. For the person fighting by Ladybug's side this whole time learning she's had another secret hero on the side he was never aware of, not being trusted with the -already outed mind you-temp heroes identities or miraculous retrieval when, yes, it would have saved time if Ladybug hadn't argued about it or even tabled the discussion for later when they weren't both on ticking clocks must feel awful. Where's the consideration for how Adrichat feels?

The answer to that is a few episodes back in "Rocketear" where Ladybug point blank asks him if something is wrong and he answers in the negative, and then never opens up about it afterward until it results in this tantrum-based act of quitting for the 2nd time. Third if you count his threat in "Syren" when people were actively drowning in the Seine.

Which drags forth an uncomfortable question of "well, why should Maribug trust Adrichat with anything when he's so consistently feckless, self-centered, incompetent and air headed"? Why should Ladybug trust the person who lounges mid-fight and got both their memories erased? Who goads and teases her about his unrequited crush that all of Paris is cheering on in a fight against an Akuma in an attempt to wear her down? A thing that occurs multiple times past where Ladybug has stopped jokingly flirted back upon realizing how serious Chat's feelings are? Who openly states he likes seeing her mad, and does things to provoke her endangering her, him, all of Paris, and also THE WORLD? Why should Maribug consider how Adrichat feels when he never considers how anyone else may feel, or how his actions effect others? All that without having the audience-only knowledge that Adrien's not missing fights because of a packed schedule or out-of-town woes, no he's sitting in his room feeling bad for himself because Ladybug has other people to rely on. Booo, boo on you Adrien.

And all that? All that is incredibly unfair to Chat who has been there since the beginning, who has contributed, who has kept the atmosphere light, and supported Ladybug from the beginning. Ladybug's increased responsibility, and accordingly stress could use a dose of fun and reminder of the joys of heroing when out-of-combat, so really what Chat needed is the right time and place. To crack jokes, to discuss his issues, to float the idea of collecting or even being able to hand out other miraculous when needed. Instead of throwing an on-the-spot tantrum making a vague post and dropping one-half of the world-ending power on a random roof and walking away because he has no ability to emotionally regulate at 13. Which really just hammers home how irresponsible and unworthy of any of the things he wants he actually is.

Not that it must have been easy finding a moment to get Ladybug together to talk given their civilian lives, burgeoning romances (for all of, what, a week?), and said increase in her duties where in an ironic twist her ability to pull a team on demand made her less of a team player. An issue the series tries to put on display in "Penalteam", but largely fails it when it would have been better here where Ladybug is, however understandably, snappy and dismissive of Chat. Ladybug's increased role as leader of a team pulls her, and Chat, further from their origins as a duo as she increasingly leans more on Alyarouge and her own chosen team whose identities she knows when the only reason she doesn't know Chat's is due to out-of-date rules set by Fu alone. If Adrichat's penchant for being mind controlled or Maribug's repeated close-calls with Akumas are meant to be the reason she certainly never voices it. Of course the real reason for the identity rule, and indeed the reason this episode is so frustrating and not a single of these reasons for the season-long erosion of the Ladynoir dynamic and trust are actually tackled in the episode itself; the Lovesquare. As Always The Lovesquare ruins everything .

No, Chat Noir isn't irresponsible and demanding the problem is Ladybug doesn't like him back and that makes him sad. No, Ladybug isn't more pushy, irritable and snappy than usual because of her various stressors leaving her sleepless and on the verge of a breakdown the problem is her partner is in looOoOoOove with her. And the whole episode and conflict really just falls apart from there, because it's no longer about the conflict the writers actually set up it's an episode about the ~Love Square~.

Hope you kept that pin in mind because we're there. Because the conflict the writers have set-up all season, in the opening of the episode, in the concept of the episode is fairly interesting. It regards responsibility, compromise, the importance of communication and changing roles in a significant other's life. But then the writers or producers or Astruc or someone decided to throw the actual conflict aside because romance is supposed to be the focus of the show. Completely ignoring that even in a romance show non-romantic drama is important to -especially since as Season 5 (and Astruc's twitter) will be happy to tell us Ladynoir is totally platonic and doesn't have aNyThINg to do with Adrinette the actual endgame pairing at all (oy vey...)- the conflict isn't resolved! Adrichat is in love with Ladybug who, as Maribug, is in love with Adrien so Cat Walker -who's based on the Adrien mask he wears in public but isn't Adrien in totality- shuts down her brain so Maribug can't have a useful strategic partner who doesn't recklessly jump into battle because giving it back to the guy who a) quit recklessly, spontaneously and without a single contingency b) is still in love with her and therefore sad (:( ) about it because she can't love him back because she's already in love with someone else (didn't stop him while he was dating Kagami but whatever I guess) c) will remain huffy about the concept of heroes other than him and "his lady" existing and d) is none of those positive things I just listed (when he demonstrates he could be he just chooses not to. but Maribug doesn't know that part because Gatekeep, Girlboss, Gaslight AdriPlagg) is such a good idea.

Because they worked and Cat Walker didn't? Find someone else then! Give the ring to Alya or Su Han and have them choose. throw a dart at the a class register with Chloe, Sabrina and Lila crossed out and give it to whoever that lands on. Hell, throw a dart out the window and give it to Zoe Lee since next season she's easily just as competent as Chat Noir anyway since he's not particularly skilled, useful, competent or smart. The episode never resolves its damn conflict who wrote this shit. Oh! Four people wrote this episode. That explains so. much(Thomas Astruc, Melanie Duval, Fred Lenoir, and Sebastian Thibaudeau).

Notice how Ladybug has to apologize to Chat Noir for not making him feel special enough when he has done nothing to earn it. He quit with vague wording, left the ring with Plagg trapped inside on a roof, moped around instead of being helpful, discussed nothing with Ladybug, lied to and manipulated Ladybug all episode, doesn't actually defeat the sentimonster -Ladybug does that by herself like she always does because Cat Walker buggered off to let her focus-shows up the end to half-heartedly apologize for quitting saying, and I quote "I didn't realize how much trouble I'd make for you by giving back my Miraculous.". I'm sorry Adrien. By "giving back [your] Miraculous"? That's not how I remember it! I remember you abandoning Plagg and the ring on a random roof in a random district of Paris! It's like the show is actively trying to gaslight me, the audience member, at this point.

Not that Ladybug's followup of Chat Noir being irreplaceable is any better considering he was easy to replace. His replacement was better in every way. In Season 5 he'll be replaced again and she's just as good if not better than him anyway. All said without telling us why Adrichat is so irreplaceable.

In "Truth" Ladybug says she likes Chat Noir's courage, self-confidence and sense of humor. Which are all likeable characteristics, their the reasons I liked Adrien in the first few seasons myself, until they become flaws when he takes them too far. Chat's courage frequently becomes recklessness, his self-confidence arrogance-such as, say, thinking himself better or more special than the other heroes-his humor irreverence. In the same episode Chat Noir says he's fine with the guardianship if it doesn't change things between them; which it does. It changes their roles, how Ladybug sees Adrichat and Alyarogue, how their dynamic works at a very base level. But none of that can be linked to our leads wanting to suck each other's faces so it all gets tossed out with the bathwater to give us a meaningless Lovesquare moment at the end of the episode after hammering the lovesquare button all episode ignoring all the set up of the first episode of the season.

Chat Noir never tells us his favorite parts of Ladybug but let's assume he'd probably note her decisiveness, creativity (when he's not drooling over anything that looks like Ladybug but wants to kiss him), and her self-assurance/ability to stand up for herself. Same deal that those taken too far become the kind of flaws we see of her that are never addressed despite being part of the actual conflict of the episode. Maribug's decisiveness becomes bull-headed inflexibility logically and morally, her creativity unreasonable complexity, her self-assurance dismissive close mindedness (Chat Noir can't have a point he's just trying to chat me up and wasting time). Again, positive traits that made me a Marinette fan that can cause conflict and if addressed can be really fun to work with. The show just doesn't want to.

Why would I, as an Adrien fan -and don't let how negatively I've been ragging on him I was an Adrien fan when I watched the show-want him to end up with someone who doesn't listen to him, takes him for granted unless he's actively making a fuss, and puts him down when frustrated? (Ignore how Marinette wouldn't put Adrien down because Love or whatever; this is back when Maribug and Adrichat being the same people mattered and the series didn't pretend the people behind the masks didn't matter when they were in the masks.) Why would I want him to end up with someone who's scheduling could become as suffocating and controlling as Gabriel's? Why would I want him to end up with someone who lies to him and makes him look up to his abuser?

Why would I, as a Marinette fan, want her to end up with someone who sulks and gets easily jealous without talking to his partner? Who lies to and manipulates her on a whim to get what he wants? Who demonstratively doesn't respect her boundaries? Why would I want her to end up with someone who has already tried to cheat on another girlfriend with her (Yes, continuing to seriously hit on Ladybug while dating Kagami is attempting to cheat on her, no I will not be taking criticism, questions or disagreements)?

This episode certainly never tells me, it just tells me there was a disagreement but Chat Noir is irreplaceable for Reasons. Where is my reason to root for these characters? Where is my reason to want to see this romance come to a fruition? Where is my resolution to the episode's conflict!?

As a byproduct of my attempts to explain why "Destruction" is thematic dumpster fire, here's a third iteration of why "Kuro Neko" is one, too. It's a cute episode but is it ever a testimony to how the writers just didn't care.

Marinette learns the lesson that she needs Cat Noir as her partner! in an episode where she discovers that the alternative to him is far more competent, genuine, and charming. She defeats the villain without anyone's help and the reason she needs Cat Noir back has nothing to do with his having skills or experience or any unique quality that she doesn't find elsewhere. It's literally because the substitute is too hot and Cat Noir's in the friendzone.

The vital dichotomy between Adrien and Cat Noir is officially cancelled. There's no need to question the reason why Adrien presents so differently as a superhero, like his personal life being deeply troubled thanks to his lacking control over his public image, his lacking control over how he spends his days, and the fact that he's a literal slave to his father and Nathalie. Plagg helpfully explains that Cat Noir has nothing to do with Adrien Agreste™ being a false and insufficient expression of Adrien's true personality, because they're not variations of an incomplete mask, but two equal expressions of the self. Cemented by Cat Walker earning a place equal to Cat Noir in the endcard, and S5 never again alluding to any tension in Adrien's self-perception

"I'm quitting because Ladybug doesn't think I'm special" "He quit because he's in love with you and you didn't make him feel special" "He quit because being in love with me hurt him" "I won't go back because being in love with her hurt me" "Sorry for quitting just because you don't think I'm special" COULD YOU KINDLY MAKE UP YOUR MIND

The episode ends with Cat Noir remorseful over being a drama queen and Ladybug reassuring him that she still cares even though he's not her special partner any more. This lesson is repeated at the beginning of the very next episode, and they're both in agreement of that status. By the end of "Strike Back", Ladybug for no discernable reason believes that her keeping secrets from Cat Noir is why Felix Fathom lied his arse off, backstabbed her and gave Hawkmoth all the miraculouses. Cat Noir is once again her "faithful partner" and not just her favourite member on the Hero Team. Not by merit of his loyalty, of his courage, of his ability to do something the others could not. Oh no, Cat Noir is her Special Partner because he's the only one who doesn't hand his miraculous back after battle. Wow.

So there's this sentimonster shaped like a black cat. It is literally named "Black Cat". It is a substitute for a lost kitty which meaningfully ecchoes Ladybug's own and currently lost black cat. Ladybug in fact initially mistakes the sentimonster for her "lost kitty", believing he has been akumatised. After that misunderstanding is cleared up, she wins the battle by killing it. The sentimonster that was named after her partner who the very next episode will all but confirm is himself a sentimonter. That's how she wins the battle wherein she learns that she needs him by her side. By singelhandedly killing the black cat sentimonster named after him.

[thecoolcatstuff]

Here I am a year and half later and Im still salty about how Kuro Neko couldve easily been the best Chat Noir-driven episode ever made but it was ruined because the narrative kept pushing how the whole issue was about Chat Noir's love for ladybug when it should have been about him being prived of sensitive information and how Chat Noir, as a hero, needed that sensitive information for making independent calls and actually helping save the world beyond being the meat shield and pep talk guy.

Im still mad how Adrien depression was treated as him being weak and overly sensitive.

Im still mad about how this was all solved by Adrien having to suck this up and "get a grip".

Im still mad how the messed up ramifications of having LB swooning about the gabe-approved corporate-molded Adrien were simply ignored and never brought up again.

Im still mad how that episode didnt change Ladybug nor Chat noir, nor their dynamic in any substantial way even though it should have.

Im still mad how Kuro Neko was the breaking point for me, and when I realized the writers had absolutely no idea what they were doing even with so much potential in hands.

[pythagoras180]

Why the season 4 "arc" between Ladybug and Cat Noir is terrible

The Setup

So, what was the conflict in this arc about exactly? It's been years, and I'm still not totally sure. It probably has something to do with trust, or if "Kuro Neko" is to be believed, it's just about Cat Noir's unrequited feelings. Sometimes Cat Noir is complaining about her utilizing other superheroes, sometimes it's about them not knowing each other's identities (even though this season explained why that rule is in place), and sometimes he's just complaining about being in the dark.

I think the reason some people think there was actual substance here is because of how the the show frames it like Cat Noir is actually being mistreated by Ladybug. But the problem is that there's no real moment where he actually is mistreated. One of the cliches I hate most is when writers want there to be conflict between good guy characters, but they don't want one of them to actually do anything wrong, so then the other character just comes across as completely unreasonable and whiney. Honestly, as the season was airing, the argument could have been made that the problem was entirely with Cat Noir being insecure and selfish. But that argument goes out the window in the season finale, which we'll get to later. But the fact is that the only thing Ladybug is "guilty" of is utilizing the resources at her disposal and following a rule of secret identities that protects everyone.

The only exception to this is in the episode "Ephemeral". Ladybug actually does something wrong here, where she decieves Cat Noir into revealing his identity to Luka and Su-Han without his knowledge or consent. And honestly? This comes completely out of nowhere. The Ladybug throughout most of this season does not seem like the kind of person who would do that. It honestly feels shoved in to try to make Cat Noir's actions more justified. The problem with that is that Cat Noir doesn't actually know what Ladybug did, so this is no excuse.

So the fact that the arc doesn't define what the issue actually is or put the blame where it lies means that there's really nothing for the characters to learn here. I mean, the episode "Penalteam" tries to frame it like Ladybug's flaw is she wants to handle everything herself, which completely contradicts the narrative framing her use of other heroes as wrong. It's honestly just pure nonsense.

The Payoff

So the big payoff for this arc is the ending of the season finale, "Strike Back". Ladybug suffers a massive loss, apologizes to Cat Noir for everything, and he chooses to stick with her despite everything. On paper, this looks like an amazing payoff. And plenty of people did find it emotional, even me at first. But once you actually peel back the layers, you'll see that it's completely hollow.

Let's start with Ladybug's defeat. Honestly, the writers completely rigged the situation to make her lose. Ladybug didn't fail because of a character flaw, there wasn't really a way she could have avoided what happened. Supposedly, her flaw was not trusting or depending on Cat Noir. But how exactly would her doing so here have changed the outcome? It's not like Cat Noir offered an alternative solution and she didn't listen. In fact, he disobeyed her orders and made the situation worse. So Ladybug's "flaw" played no part in this defeat.

Next, there's Ladybug's apology. Let's break down everything she says and see why it's nonsense. "I wanted to control everything" When exactly did Ladybug overstep? She never put overbearing limitations on Cat Noir. She acted like a perfectly reasonable leader. "I didn't listen to you" Listen about what exactly? When did Cat Noir tell her anything that she disregarded. "I lied to you" She did, in "Ephemeral". Too bad Cat Noir didn't know about that. And considering her lying ended up interrupted, it's honestly just the intent of lying. "I kept you at a distance" At the beginning of the season, they're actually much closer than they've ever been, as they hang out outside of battle. What exactly is Ladybug referring to here? The only thing I can think of is the Rena Furtive stuff, but there weren't any consequences to this and Cat Noir had no meaningful reaction when he found out the truth. "Every time you offered me a helping hand, I never took it" Like I just mentioned, Cat Noir never offered alternate solutions that she ignored. The only thing this might be referring to is the opening of "Kuro Neko", but it was clearly explained why he couldn't actually be helpful in collecting the Miraculouses, and he was obviously in the wrong there. So, since Ladybug never did anything actually wrong that Cat Noir knew about, this apology doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Cat Noir only ever complained about stuff that wasn't actually bad or her fault.

As for Cat Noir sticking with her, well again, that falls flat because she didn't do anything wrong to him. He'd have no reason to do anything else. And considering how much he complained about the other heroes, he's probably quite happy that they're gone now. Cat Noir is not making a sacrifice, he got exactly what he wanted.

So this payoff means absolutely nothing. Honestly, the framing is very good which is why it tricked so many people into liking it. But ultimately, the lack of any decent setup leads to a payoff that falls completely flat, even if the payoff itself is well written.

The Aftermath

If what I've talked about already wasn't bad enough, this arc also ultimately has no impact on the overall story.

If you're going to make an arc where Ladybug learns to trust and depend on Cat Noir (which she always did, but whatever), then the obvious effect that should have moving forward is that Ladybug should choose to trust him in a situation she previously wouldn't have, and she would benefit because of this. Except, there is nothing like this. Throughout all of season 5, there is not a single moment where Ladybug puts more trust in Cat Noir than before. I know that the moment that most would point towards is the season 5 premier, "Evolution", where she trusts Cat Noir with the Rabbit Miraculous. Hmmm, Ladybug trusting Cat Noir with a time Miraculous. I guess that is a new thing. Wait, no it's not, that literally already happened in "Miracle Queen". So Ladybug is just doing something she already did 2 seasons ago. And there's also no real benefit to this. Cat Noir didn't do anything with it that Ladybug wouldn't have done if she chose to use it herself. So this moment is completely substanceless. This is not a new level of trust, and Ladybug doesn't actually benefit from her "growth". And it doesn't help that this is the only moment that might qualify as the aftermath of the arc. Throughout the rest of the season, Ladybug displays absolutely no amount of exceptional trust in Cat Noir. And ultimately, it probably would have been better if Ladybug instead learned not to depend on Cat Noir, as he ends up playing no role in the final battle, and she has to handle everything alone.

So in the end, the so called arc in season 4 had a poor setup that didn't have Ladybug display actual flaws, a poor payoff that has Ladybug lose because of factors beyond her control, and an aftermath where the "lesson" she learned plays absolutely no part in the events that follow. I genuinely think that the reason this arc exists is just as filler, and to create meaningless drama for fans to talk about.

[kitkats-and-kittens]

My issue with derision and how it deals with Marinette’s problematic behaviour.

Disclaimer before I make this post that I’m not an avid miraculous fan, so if I get things wrong feel free to correct me.

I used to watch it a lot as a kid but I’m not so into it now. The reason I’m making this post is because recently my little sister came over to visit me and she loves the series half to death. I decided to sit down and watch it with her just for fun, and long story short my ADHD hyper fixation kicked in and I ended up binging 2 whole seasons.

And OML the only thing that did was remind me why I stopped watching the show in the first place

As a kid I never liked Marinette’s character. That was more of a me problem though since back in season 1 there wasn’t really too much wrong with her, I was just having my whole ‘I hate girly things phase’ so I didn’t like her.

However When season 3 came out she was firmly cemented as my least favourite character. I didn’t like her weird, creepy behaviour as well as the fact that the writers didn’t really give her any flaws, or at least none that really effected the plot.

I think the thing that made me the angriest was the fact that no one seemed to address it. The writers didn’t seem to care, everyone in the show applauded and even encouraged her behaviour and everyone in the fandom seemed to love Adrienette. I couldn’t find anyone mentioning the fact that the girl literally broke into his house and it pissed me off to no end.

As it turns out though I wasn’t the only one offset by her behaviour as in one of the recent episodes ‘Derision’ the writers finally decided to address the huge distaste with Marinette’s actions.

Of course this show being what it is means that Marinette can’t have a single flaw, so instead of doing what I thought was the logical thing and having an episode where the staking is seen and addressed as a bad thing and Marinette takes measures to fix and develop herself the writers decide to just excuse it all by saying she was traumatised.

I hated the way they dealt with this.

First of all the writing was just lazy.

Her being suddenly traumatised by Kim despite having absolutely no issues with him anywhere else in the show? I thought that was stupid and not well thought out since this whole bit is just the writes slapping a bandaid solution on fans complaints. Also I’m vaguely certain that Kim has a canonical fear of spiders so why is he using them to prank Marinette of all people with?

Second of all it doesn’t do a good job of explaining why she was a stalker.

In the episode she says that it was because Kim broke her trust so she now refuses to get into a relationship with someone without knowing everything about them.

This is supposed to explain her weird behaviour towards Adrien but it doesn’t simply because this is shown to only be a problem with him.

It’s not like we catch her breaking into Luka’s house on multiple occasions so she can go through his things and sniff his pillow. Nor does she seem to care about finding out anything and everything about Cat Noir. I’m fine with this being the case when she’s ladybug since she doesn’t really show any romantic appeal towards him but as Marinette?

The show establishes that she has at minimum a crush on him and that’s all it took for her to start going after Adrien, and maybe you could say that she doesn’t have the means to stalk Cat Noir since she’s a civilian but we’ve seen repeatedly that she’s not above abusing her own superpowers to do so with Adrien.

Even the argument that she wants to protect secret identities is useless when you watch Ephemeral and see that she was completely on board with manipulating Cat Noir so she could expose his identity to a person without his consent.

I think the worst part for me however, is the fact that I could look past all the lazy writing and the pathetic excuses used to justify her actions if she’d done the bare minimum by apologising to Adrien.

Admitting to him what she’d done and telling him she was sorry. I would’ve liked it if the writers didn’t have Adrien forgive her (at least not right away) but I know they don’t have the capacity to have Marinette be genuinely in the wrong for anything so I would have settled for just an apology instead.

But they can’t even do that! All that happens is that Marinette promises to herself that she won’t do it anymore and as usual Adrien is left none the wiser.

Even though I’ve only recently gotten back into the show this episode along with Kuro Neko and the season 5 finale have shown me that I genuinely can’t ship Adrienette in good conscience anymore.

Marinette just lies to him about too much important stuff. It’s so unfair to him that he’s constantly kept out of the loop about things in his life that directly involve him and the people who do this face absolutely no consequences.

Heck even Gabriel got his happily ever after by bringing his wife back meanwhile Adrien is living a complete lie as the people he cares about reassure him that everything’s fine when it really, really isn’t.

I’ve seen people act like this episode somehow provides a good excuse to Marinette’s actions but barely anything is done in terms of character development so I have to disagree with them.

Anyway thanks for comin to my tedtalk if you want to argue with me in the comments please be respectful about it.

[celestiall0tus]

Kuro Neko Half Notes - All That Remained

I can't do it! I fucking hate this episode! The writing is so fucking garbage! I know fucking 12 year-olds smarter than these 14-15 year olds.

Prepare for the utmost salt since, what was it? Migration! That one!

I will preface this saying that yes, I do know the main conflict of season 4. Lady is Guardian and Chat is getting shafted. But holy fuck is it so fucking bad.

First off, the role of Guardian should never have fallen on Ladybug. Master Fu was an irresponsible, horrible mother fucking adult for pulling that stunt. Marinette is still a fucking child and shouldn't have all that responsibility thrust on her shoulders. I don't care how special a ladybug she is, absolutely awful. Shame. Shame on all y'all!

Adrien, buddy, read the room!! And again, another instance where I can see the trauma peeking through but it still doesn't feel right. I can give it to him that his first thought would be to overreact, thinking he wasn't needed and have that absolutely crush him. That I get, but not that reaction. For the abuse he suffers as per the writers of the show, you'd expect a more taken aback, heartbroken response. Him not letting her see him break down, renouncing his kwami without a hint of what he was doing, and running off. With his reaction in the episode, I was honestly waiting for him to throw the ring in a dumpster. Enjoy dumpster diving, m'lady.

Then there is the conflict of Plagg not knowing how to fucking just say things plainly to a fucking child. And darling Marinette just assuming that Chat being in love with her was the entire problem. That was part of the problem, but again, a double edged sword. On one hand, Marinette, for all her "maturity" should have had some inkling to Chat as a partner and friend, but feels like she disregarded him. Then ol Chat. We need to working on timing, response, and a level of emotional maturity that is sorely lacking. Again, he feels more like an entitled little bitch ass white boy than an abuse victim. Maybe Daddy dearest doesn't love or spend enough time with him, but not how Gabriel is supposedly treating him.

Oh! And let's not forget the absolute best part of the damn episode. Seeing that Ladybug's "ideal man" is just Adrien. Ultimately proving at this point that she really doesn't love Chat Noir or his antics and is utterly obsessed with Adrien that you're only perfect if you are him. Fuck you, Astruc. You hear me? Fuck you.

I hate Kuro Neko. I fucking hate it so fucking much.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

It's weird to expect lb to be able to read cn mind and called her a bad partner for it. But it's even weirder for lb to ignore cn WHEN HES OBVIOUSLY IN DISTRESS and not called her a bad partner for it because I think called her a bad partner for ignoring it is understandable and justified especially since she consider herself as his boss.

Every time I bring up this conflict, I try to make it clear that I don't think Ladybug was blameless, I just think Chat Noir's writing was worse. Let's walk through the problem to show what I mean.

Season four stars with Marinette extremely stressed by her new Guardian status. In Truth and Lies, the first episodes of the season, we get this:

Ladybug: Will you cut it out with the practical jokes? I could have really hurt you! Cat Noir:(answering while hanging by the yo-yo) M'lady, the only thing that really hurts me is when you make me go on patrol by myself. (sighs, relaxing his posture) I even missed your little angry pout. Ladybug: Sorry, Kitty Cat, I'm a bit over my head at the moment. (pulling him up) Cat Noir: I bet! "Guardian of the Miraculous", big name, big responsibility!

This is also the start to Chat Noir communicating poorly. In this episode, he's straight up told that Ladybug is in over her head and he never once asks how he can help. In fact, we even get him saying this when asked how he feels about the change:

Truth: Cat Noir, tell me what- (interupted by Ladybug throwing a present at Truth) Ladybug: (covering her parasol with foil) ...do you think about my new role as guardian! Cat Noir: If it doesn't change things between us, then I'm good with it!

So not a great start to the season. I know people focused on Adrien's terrible treatment of Kagami in these episodes, but this Ladynoir dynamic was actually what rang alarm bells for me. I kept waiting for Chat Noir to offer his support since it was really, really obvious that Ladybug was in over her head since she was late to patrols, the last season literally ended with her losing her mentor figure, and, you know, she straight up told him that was what was going on?

The next episode is Gang of Secrets in which we see Marinette out her identity to Alya. I get why she did this, she needed support and her partner doesn't seem interested in giving it, but she can't say that for certain because she never asked him directly and she should have. Trusting Chat Noir over Alya would have allowed Ladynette to maintain the security of her secret identity - a thing she claimed was more important than ever - and to honor their partnership. At the very least, she should have told Chat Noir that Rena Rouge was now a full time holder so that he could account for that in battle and to minimize the fallout by owning up to her mistake asap. The longer a lie goes on, the worse the truth will hurt.

To Ladybug's credit, she does eventually acknowledge her mistake after the Scarabella incident:

Ladybug: You... must've been pretty surprised to discover there was another holder! (Silence. She sits beside Cat Noir.) Ladybug: I'm really sorry, Cat Noir. I should've told you. I mean, if I found out that you told someone about your secret identity, I'd... probably be upset, too. I'm really sorry I hurt your feelings.

This is a decent apology. She doesn't try to absolve herself of wrong doing. Instead, she acknowledges that what she did would hurt her, too, if the shoe were on the other foot. The only thing she loses points on is the fact that she doesn't tell him about Rena Furtive.

However, instead of agreeing with her and telling her that she has hurt him, Chat Noir says that she did nothing wrong and never once brings up how their weakened partnership is bothering him:

Cat Noir: You didn't hurt my feelings. You did everything right. Paris will always need a Ladybug superhero to watch over her. It's just... I realized that if one day that hero wasn't you, m'lady, since we don't know each other's identities, that means... I'd never see you again. Ever. And now, I just don't know if I can bear it.

This is the thing that I hate about this arc. The reason why I say Ladybug is blamed for not reading his mind. Especially because, three episodes later, we get Rocketear, which gives us this:

Cat Noir: Everyone has doubts now and then, (looks down) even me... Ladybug: Is everything okay, Cat Noir? Cat Noir: Yeah, yeah. (prepare his fist) Pound it! Ladybug: (fistbumps) Pound it!

Rocketear is the episode where Nino outs that he and Alya know each other's identities while acting like Ladybug said identities weren't a big deal even though that is very much not what happened. You'd think that Chat Noir would want to know the full story, but instead he just lies and says that everything is fine.

So we have two situations where the show allowed Ladybug to give Chat Noir a chance for clear and open communication and both times he turns her down.

What's worse is that he clearly starts making up stories in his head, leading to Kuro Neko, which starts with Adrien avoiding a fight on purpose as some sort of shit test. He then gets upset when Ladybug... doesn't lament his absence on national TV?

Clara: (from TV) By the way, where's Cat Noir? You've saved Paris without him quite a few times recently. Are you two at odds with each other? Carapace, Pegasus, Vesperia and Pigella: (from TV) Pound it! Ladybug: (from TV) Of course not, it's just that... umm, he's a partner like any other! The most important is to pick the best superheroes for each mission, with or without Cat Noir. No matter what, we've got a great team and we'll always be here to save Paris. (Adrien is shocked.) Adrien: (turns off the TV and sighs) "A partner like any other..."

Dude, what did you want her to do here? Complain that you flaked on her? Make Paris feel less safe by saying she doesn't know where you are? Imply that the fight was barely won without you? What are you doing? Plagg, you are completely failing as a mentor right now.

The shit test continues as Chat Noir goes to meet up with Ladybug now that the battle is over, arriving just as Ladybug has finished instructing the team on what to do:

Ladybug: Come on, guys! Hurry up before you all detransform. I'll meet you at rendezvous points. (The heroes jump away in different directions, and Ladybug starts typing something on her Yo-yo.) Cat Noir: Hey! Meow are you, m'lady? Ladybug: Great, thanks, but I gotta go retrieve all these Miraculous. Cat Noir: I could lend you a paw to help save time. Ladybug: Thanks, kitty cat, but it's a guardian's job to do it. Cat Noir: I know who some of them are, remember? I was there when you first gave them their Miraculous! Ladybug: You don't even know where their rendezvous points are, I don't have time to— Cat Noir: Playing cat and mouse is my forte, you know— Ladybug: (yelling) If you wanna save me time, stop wasting it in the first place! (Cat Noir gasps. As Ladybug swings away, Cat Noir clenches his fist.) Cat Noir: And take my Miraculous back when you're done!

So Ladybug doesn't publicly chastise Chat Noir for missing the battle and rejects an offer to help because of very legitimate timing concerns, leading to Chat Noir quitting because she failed his stupid, petty, childish tests. Realistic writing? Yes. Writing that paints Ladybug as the one in the wrong? No.

Going into this episode, Ladybug has no idea that things are messed up between them even though she has actually kept communication lines open. She asks him if things are okay, but he lies. And when he's ready to quit? He plays stupid games and wins a stupid prize. It's really not shocking that the next scene sees Ladybug totally baffled by what just happened:

Plagg: For a while now, you've been neglecting this camembert— I mean Cat Noir, and going on adventures with the all other cheeses! Ladybug: But he should be happy about it, it gives him more time off. Plagg: Cat Noir doesn't wanna have time off, Ladybug! He is in love with you! And your persistent calling on all the other heroes has broken his heart.

And how is she supposed to know that, Plagg? Was she supposed to assume that her partner was lying when he said he was fine? Because she did ask and he said that nothing was wrong. But something was wrong and it lead him to build up a story in his head, reading nonexistent intent into her actions, all of which is toxic and unhealthy communication.

I cannot stress how common this shit is. I've seen it so many times and I will own that I've done it in the past and wound up getting no support when I needed it because I'd directly told people I didn't and they committed the heinous crime of... believing me.

Here's the other thing, there are times when I'm in distress and legitimately don't want or need help. Times when I just need to be alone for a bit. So if someone asks me if I'm okay during those times, I'm probably just going to say, "Yeah, I just need a people break" or something like that. That's why the Scarabella scene is so bad. Ladybug can see that Chat Noir is in distress and he gives her a fully plausible answer: I'm not upset with you, I'm just saddened by the idea of losing you. And she believes him because why wouldn't she?

Same goes for Rocketear. It's reasonable for Ladybug to assume that Chat Noir is just shaken by the fight. She has no idea about the bombshell that Nino dropped right before the fight. She doesn't even know that Nino and Chat Noir are actually close friends, making this fight a lot more devastating than it looks at face value. Her actions here are not objectively wrong. They're only wrong if you know the whole story, including Adrien's needs. Things that she cannot know unless Chat Noir uses his words to tell her things.

I cannot over stress how much season four is a textbook example of denying yourself support because you cannot communicate your own needs. Is it an understandable character flaw for a character with Adrien's background to have? Yes. Absolutely. 100%. But it's still a character flaw. This season desperately needed an arc about Adrien learning to tell people what's wrong. Not because he's the only one in the wrong here, but because things cannot get better when Ladybug has no idea that she's hurting him. (Nino has no idea either, but let's keep our focus on Ladybug.)

One of the most important things you can do for your own mental well being is to dismiss the idea that your needs are the same as everyone else's. Everyone needs different amounts of attention and values different behavior based on things like their upbringing and life events.

I get the feeling that I'm wired pretty similar to Marinette. At least, it influences how I write her because I can go months without talking to my best friends and still call them my best friends, a trait we all share because two of use are artsy introverts and two of us are moms to young kids, which allows for very little free time. Meanwhile, my SO and his best friend spend hours on the phone almost every week. I swear that those two go into withdrawal if they don't talk at least once every seven days. If months went by without them talking? Something would be very wrong, but the exact same time gap isn't even remotely concerning when it comes to my friends. It's something my SO and I had to figure out when we got together because I need a lot less attention than he does. But we communicated and found a balance that we continue to work to communicate about so that he doesn't feel neglected and I don't feel overwhelmed by too little me time.

What I'm trying to say is Marinette wasn't horribly wrong for assuming that Chat Noir was telling her the truth or that he liked having a larger team so he had less responsibility. Those are reasonable assumptions. Especially since he never actually indicated that he wanted more responsibility until he was ready to quit and decided to shit test her by pushing for more to do when she was stressed and on a timer.

I do think that she should have offered it to him before that or - at the very least - the show should have clearly stated why she didn't do that since it apparently had nothing to do with Chat Blanc trauma like we all thought it did. I'm not saying that she's blameless or perfect or that there weren't things she could have done better. It's just really hard for me to look at Chat Noir's behavior in season four and go, "Oh yeah, he's the injured party here. Ladybug holds all the blame and did everything wrong." She did many things wrong, but generally speaking, she owned her faults and tried to keep communication channels open. Chat Noir chose to ignore those chances to talk or otherwise try to express his needs in a clear and understandable manner.

We'll end with one final point to drive this home: You said that she's his boss. Well, if my boss asked me, "is everything okay with the project?" and I said, "yes" while freaking out about the upcoming deadline that I'm probably going to miss because he's given me too much work, the issue is not all on my boss. It's on both of us. Him for overloading me and me for not telling him I'm overloaded. You could even argue that it's mostly on me because I'm the only one who can properly gauge my own ability to do a given workload. As soon as it was too much, I should have said something. And if I don't feel like my boss is approachable? Then I should quit. But that isn't the situation I'm in and it doesn't appear to be the one that Chat Noir was in, either. He wanted to stay part of the team, he just totally failed to tell Ladybug how being on the team was making him feel.

People magically knowing what you need and how you feel is a myth. I promise you, most people in this world do not want to cause you pain, but if you cannot clearly express when someone is causing you pain, then you will continue to get hurt by people who would be very happy to not hurt you if they actually knew that their actions were causing you pain.

[ilikekidsshows]

Could I ask for your thoughts on Kuro Neko the episode as a whole? It's actually kind of my final straw, so I wanted to ask for your perspective on it.

I haven’t actually seen Kuro Neko in its entirety, and I have no intention to. This episode repels me. Everything I’ve learned about this episode has just made me want to avoid it more. I’ve read the transcript and I suffered every moment of it. I heard the first episodes of season 5 were good and thought to myself: “God, I hope season 5 doesn’t actually fix season 4 because then I’ll have to watch Kuro Neko to catch up.”

Kuro Neko is like Reflekdoll all over again, when the characters come away with the worst possible lessons. In Reflekdoll, Adrien learns that he should never try to be Ladybug and he can’t handle responsibility, while Marinette learns Cat Noir really does just goof off all the time and that’s his “role”. In Kuro Neko, Adrien and Marinette both learn the same lesson that his feelings don’t matter because Ladybug will always have more important things to worry about than his emotional state and he should just be her emotional support dispenser.

Basically, Kuro Neko has Marinette at her most self-centered in the entire show, and she’s downright selfish in it. That by itself wouldn’t be an issue if this wasn’t the retool and Marinette wasn’t Astruc’s imaginary daughter and therefore the “person” this world was made for. The thing is, the episode doesn’t have Marinette learn a lesson about valuing other people and their opinions, like any other cartoon protagonist would have in this scenario, no no no, the episode instead vindicates her.

Kuro Neko has Marinette chase away her partner with her unjustified negative attitude towards him, and she doesn’t regret it once. Instead the episode makes excuses for how she’s under so much pressure and Cat Noir should be grateful Ladybug considers him a useful tool. It’s basically the New York Special all over again. Marinette is in the wrong, but she’s under so much pressure guys, that Cat Noir should accept whatever mistreatment he receives because doing otherwise would be mean to poor Marinette.

Hot take: Marinette deserved to lose her partner in the New York Special and she deserved to lose him in Kuro Neko. Her actions directly lead to him leaving for completely justified reasons, and Marinette never apologizes. It would have been better for Adrien if he didn’t come back, so yeah, I don’t think “Marinette deserves to lose Cat Noir as a partner” is as extreme of a take as I was convinced it was when I first saw the special. Because Marinette keeps pulling this shit and never reflects or improves on her behavior.

Here’s what Kuro Neko tells me: Ladybug doesn’t actually care about Cat Noir as a person, but Cat Noir should still be grateful that he gets a spot on the team working for a leader who constantly abuses her power over him.

This fandom loves to rag on Adrien for being suicidal, because Cat Noir throwing himself in the path of an enemy’s attack to save Ladybug upsets Marinette, but, here’s the thing: LADYBUG DOES IT TOO. LADYBUG HAS PUSHED CAT NOIR INTO AN ENEMY’S WEAPON BECAUSE THAT WAS PART OF HER PLAN IN ‘BACKWARDER’ AND THE FANDOM SLEEPS ON THAT. Marinette’s plans often revolve around Cat Noir being in danger or compromised and the fandom dares to blame him for thinking his life doesn’t matter when that’s what his partner tells him with her actions constantly.

Kuro Neko is just more of that. Cat Noir quitting didn’t come from nowhere. There were warning signs of him missing fights and so on, but Marinette can’t be arsed to spare a single thought to what might be going on with her partner. She just thinks he should be happy he’s getting a break, because being a superhero is so much hard work, projecting her own thoughts and feelings onto him instead of asking. Marinette never asks when it comes to Cat Noir, she just assumes and demands.

She thinks Kuro Neko is Cat Noir, which is equal parts frustrating and hilarious when it’s paired together with her insisting time and time again that she knows Cat Noir so well in this episode. And it’s the episode where she fails to recognize him twice and misconstrues his issues to be about the fact that he can’t handle being one-sidedly in love with her. But, like, here comes the really asinine part; despite all these facts being provably incorrect, the episode still doesn’t make Marinette learn she’s incorrect. It really is Reflekdoll, but worse.

The only time Marinette apologizes in this episode is when she thinks Cat Noir was Akumatized, and it was for “not seeing how broken-hearted he was”, not for actively pushing him away. When Cat Noir comes back, she instead gives him the silent treatment until he says his justified anger at her was just “her kitty being temperamental”, invalidating his own feelings. Sure, Cat Walker, and therefore Cat Noir, heard those apologies, but Marinette doesn’t know that. Somewhere between realizing Kuro Neko isn’t Cat Noir and seeing Cat Noir again, she decided she had done nothing wrong that warranted an apology. And the thing that did it: the person she hurt coddling her through her pity party.

When Marinette realizes that Cat Noir is still missing and not Kuro Neko, in true Marinette fashion, she makes it about herself. “I must be the worst Guardian ever!” she bemoans when she should be putting together a plan. Hell, even a decision to do better by Cat Noir. But no, our solution-oriented protagonist couldn’t possibly make a plan to find and apologize to Cat Noir (maybe even do away with the “no revealing identities” rule so that this can’t happen again), she’s too busy bitching and moaning about how hard she’s having it. The only thing that gets her out of her funk is the new guy, who she thinks she’s just met, calling her faithful former partner “too emotional” and swearing servitude to her and her altar of the most important problems in the world. And the reason the episode is written like this? It’s because the writers don’t think she needs to apologize and do better in the future. Of course they’re not having her come to the conclusion that she needs to fix something, because they don’t think she does.

“You take care of everybody equally, Ladybug. Now I want to take care of you,” Cat Walker says, to absolve Ladybug of any guilt. The reality, though, is completely different. Cat Noir has always supported Ladybug. The reason he quit was because Ladybug made it abundantly clear she didn’t want or need his support anymore. And he’s made to come back to her, saying he hasn’t done enough? HE COMFORTS LADYBUG THROUGH AN EMOTIONAL BREAKDOWN AT LEAST ONCE PER SEASON. HE DOES SO FUCKING MUCH AND HE’S FORCED TO SAY HIS EMOTIONS ARE “MAKING TROUBLE” FOR LADYBUG WHILE HIS SELFISH, SELF-CENTERED PARTNER WHO DOESN’T TREAT HIM AS A PERSON GIVES HIM THE SILENT TREATMENT, ONLY FACING HIM WHEN HE MAKES LIGHT OF HIS OWN EMOTIONS SO THAT SHE DOESN’T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR ACTING LIKE A JERK.

“You treat everybody equally” my ass. The day she starts treating Cat Noir like a person, then we can talk. Before that point, she’s a selfish, entitled jerk and Cat Noir deserves better.

The Fae Cat Noir Interpretation was supposed to reflect a flaw of Marinette’s, that Marinette never thinking about Cat Noir as a human being with emotions and problems was something she’d need to grow out of. Except that she doesn’t. Instead the show agrees with her and makes excuses for her. Adrien isn’t even human, he literally is made a “perfect” fae being that Marinette can treat however she wants and he will never complain and he will be in the wrong if he tries to leave.

[natedogx15]

Inu and Neko Swap

A Miraculous Ladybug Kuro Neko swap au based around the traitor Adrien/Cat Noir idea. May have an ooc, Felix. I haven't watched season five much and don't know how he treats the Kwami.

Basically, Felix finds the Black Cat ring, possibly the wind blowing it away before Ladybug can find it, and discovers that Adrien is Cat Noir via Plagg accidentally mistaking him for Adrien and saying his name.

Hearing this gives him an idea of how to get Gabriel to hand over the Graham de Vanily rings. He heads back to the mansion to meet with his dear uncle. However, instead of giving Gabriel the ring right away, Felix makes a deal with his uncle that he'll act as a spy and help Gabriel claim the Ladybug Miraculous in exchange for the rings.

Que the next few Akumas. While pretending to be Cat Noir after forcing Plagg to reveal about transforming, Felix starts to make purposeful mistakes to mess with Ladybug and the other Miraculous users. He may even flirt with other Miraculous users to mess with them and the team dynamics.

From the sidelines, Adrien watches the way the new Cat Noir acts and how much it seems the team is getting annoyed with him. Seeing this could play on his insecurities at the time of not being needed for a while. However, maybe seeing his behavior from an outside perspective while it's being amplified to a worse degree is what he needs to grow as a hero. It leads him down the line of thinking, "Was I that bad?"

Fast forward to the season four finale, where Ladybug gives the Dog Miraculous to Adrien. This time, she doesn't mess up and gives the real Adrien the Dog Miraculous. When Adrien first gets the Miraculous, his persona is similar to Cat Walker. Ladybug can think it's because of his failure with the Snake last time or ask if he's okay, and Adrien explains that he doesn't want to be a burden to the team like Cat Noir. This causes Ladybug to possibly defend her partner and inadvertently reveal she cares about him still to the real Cat Noir while also trying to get Adrien to loosen up and not force himself.

Hearing this helps Adrien a lot. But he still doesn't want to be a burden to the team and starts learning how to develop a middle ground to his Cat Noir and Dog Hero persona during season five's events.

Speaking of season five, since Felix doesn't have the Dog, Gabriel doesn't get his hands on the other Miraculous. Taking away that plot. However, instead of that. Maybe you can have season four be the season where Ladybug lets the other users keep their Miraculous. So instead of the canon plot, the plot changes to 'Cat Noir' revealing his true colors and stealing the Miraculous one by one during Akuma attacks or by following the users while Adrien tries to discover a middle ground and figure out who he is.

[asukiess]

You're the mutual who managed to get me to follow you with the Catwalker icon you had at the time, it made me suspect that you'd have the a strain of the brainrot I wanted to have more of in my life (and lo and behold, I was right <:3 )

<:3 !!!!!!!!! I'm so glad, literally cannot think of two better fitting mutuals than you and I. thank you for understanding kuro neko with me AND loving our girl marinette dpc at the same time AND producing such a great comic!!! I think about chapter 8 & 9 like. a lot. that was fucked up (affectionate). it gives me 100000 psychic damage.

[soullessjack]

so im on s5 of miraculous and i keep thinking about cat noirs whole “kept at a distance” arc bc it’s genuinely really interesting but gets so wasted by always winding up with him basically validating ladybugs nonsensical decisions and treatment—the same treatment that we were already shown upset him enough to destroy public properly about it. the most consistent reason LB ever gives cat about why he can’t be fully trusted or relied on is that he’s too much of a liability for their partnership to work—either because he’s too reckless, too in love with her, or his cataclysm would be too dangerous to use.

whatever it is, the baseline is that she thinks he’s a liability, and obviously that’s like salt in the wound for cat since he genuinely loves her and enjoys being partners with her, but it’s also just sad to see him continue to respect her decision and act like it isn’t a problem for him when he’s literally upset enough to physically lash out and use his powers to do so. and I know a lot of it can probably be explained by ladybug’s experience in the cat blanc timeline, but 1) she starts holding him at a distance way before that even happens, 2) she’s actively making it worse by not telling cat noir about cat blanc and why she thinks she has to exclude him for his own safety, and 3) SHE SHOULD HAVE TOLD HIM ABOUT CAT BLANC TO BEGIN WITH BECAUSE IT’S LITERALLY A WORLD ENDING SITUATION INVOLVING HIM DIRECTLY‼️‼️‼️‼️

instead she just allows him think he’s unwanted and unnecessary, calls the shots on how he should feel about “having more free time” and ironically makes him even more susceptible to being Akumatized because of it. ladybug might not be aware that cat is adrien and has a terrible home life he actively uses his miraculous to escape from, but she’s playing right into all the key aspects that adrien resents from his father; she decides what he wants without considering or asking him, she trusts him conditionally and still distances herself enough for him to just not know certain things. it’s done with good intentions, but it still clearly affects adrien very poorly, and it’s just such a frustrating glass-chewing miscommunication that only needlessly complicates the situation

don’t even get me started on Kuro Neko where ladybug falls head over heels for the changed version of her partner and narrowly avoiding her having to actually screw up and learn a lesson about accepting cat for who he actually is because catwalker is just “too perfect” for her to function—instead of being an obedient idealized version of her best friend who lets her be in control of everything (WHEN ADRIEN LITERALLY USES HIS DOUBLE LIFE TO HAVE THE CONTROL HE DOESN’T GET AT HOME).

theres so much potential for the base concept of the miraculous of destruction and its Kwami/holder being distrusted outliers among the rest of the Kwami/holders, but the magic system sucks and it kind of loses any chance when the other Kwamis are established to be catastrophic if they use their powers without a holder. and it gets even more confusing if you consider that Fu specifically chose adrien to hold that miraculous, but then encourages Marinette to keep her distance from him and barely acknowledges him as a hero in general. Like why did you even bother testing adrien for his worthiness or whatever if you obviously don’t think he’s worthy of knowing anything about you or the rest of the miraculous OR his best friend’s identity??? but you’re totally okay with her just giving them out to anyone in Paris who’s conveniently around and having her know their identity???? master fu when I catch you master fu

auugghhhfgg I don’t know the magic system thing could be its own separate post but likeeeeee I just think the miraculous of destruction whos constantly mistrusted for no reason and goes Kamehameha Krazy in another timeline is very special and could be treated so much better if the writers were good at their job and didn’t make every character’s sole purpose be validating ladybug/marinette even when she’s in the wrong

[mystic-myrtille]

It always bother me that Lukanette/Luka salters (or antis) arguments are always like "Luka is so boring and bland" or "he's a gary stue" or "marinette treats Luka like a rebound and a plan b" basically any arguments that get your brain to stop braining

While them being the same people defending Adri/////chat and excusing/justifying his behaviour in episodes like Syren, Glaciator, Copycat, Lies, Hack-san, Kuro Neko, Chat blanc and etc and etc and etc You name it!

they even make Luka/Marinette Way too OOC in the salt fics (it's even worse since it's trash square endgame, they make Marinette a terrible gf or they make Luka an abusive, terrible toxic piece of shit)

Meanwhile us salters have every single good reasons to despise adri////chat and the L////S

we make salt fics that actually capture adrichat's mentality and behaviour

We even show how toxic the trash square is just like in canon

Lmao reminds me of how when season 4 started airing people were accusing Luka of being manipulative for asking Mari a question about their relationship when before they were complaining about how he lets her walk over him like a doormat with no backbone. At least he’s able to communicate

[eveistdiepommes]

I FINISHED THEIR OUTFIT DOODLES YAYYYYYYY

From left to right, we haveeee:

Kiku Honda / Organizer: Kiku arranges everything and schedules their sessions! He was also appointed to hire new staff/group members but only ended up hiring one person, that being Feliciano. Kiku has a very mysterious, all-knowing air. Method of protection-> Talisman! 🗝️

Arthur Kirkland / Brains: Arthur knows all the occult knowledge the teams needs! Having an interest in the macabre ever since he was a child, Arthur has learned all about ghosts, spirits, demonology, you name it. He genuinely and full heartedly believes in the supernatural, making him susceptible to interference. Though he doesn’t explain why, sometimes Arthur knows things he shouldn’t. Method of protection-> Salt! 🔮

Feliciano Vargas / Seer: Feliciano is the newest member to their investigation team! His ability to see and speak to ghosts has become very useful in their sessions. It also helps that the first ghost he encounters with the team is incredibly good looking… But that’s besides the point! Activity seems to follow Feliciano, which makes tracking down artifacts and information easier! Method of protection-> Holy Water! 👁️

Alfred F. Jones / Brawn: Alfred is the team’s muscle! He carries their larger equipment, finds ways into abandoned places, and overall protects the team from any living threats! He’s a loyal and protective member, very dependable! Method of protection-> “THESE FISTS BABY!!!” (Intimidation) 🔦

Usually the team stays together, but when they have to split up, they’ve given themselves group names!

Arthur and Kiku: Team Kuro ->Neko<- Shiro! (said together “kuro shiro neko”) 🐈‍⬛

Feliciano and Alfred: Team BEAUTY AND THE BRAWN! 🦅

Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-

“Arthur? That’s your name? Well… I’ll continue haunting your dreams, calling out to you~ My Arthur~….”

That’s all the notes I have for right now!! Next I’ll be designing the ghosts!! I’m very excited to do that :D