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the-monkey-ruler · 1 year ago

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I understand the rules for gods and their hierarchy, but do we know how the hierarchy and rules for demons work? I understand that there are demon kings, and could we say that they have their own territories and subjects? Do demons always walk alone? They have clans or groups? How do female demons differ from male demons? Or do you know articles or people who know more about it? I understand that Wukong was like on a political mission to talk to the demon kings and have a good relationship with them, right?

I would like to know more about how their "society" (their politics?) works in JTTW and other legends and stories.

but do we know how the hierarchy and rules for demons work?

It's hard to pinpoint ranks in Yaoguai society per se, but from what we can tell they follow a similar structure to heaven based on their military ranks. They have Kings, Generals, rear generals, soldiers, servants, and carriers. This is most likely to reflect how the military was structured in the same time period as well.

Royalty or Yaoguai with Princess, Queen, or King in their name are often the heads of their armies, with both soldiers and servants under their command. We see this often in Xiyouji where Demon Kings are in charge of their forces and depending on the demons directly interact with servants or soldiers. It should be noted that for Women Demon Queen/Princess they only had other women servants as that was considered proper in human society as well at the time and it reflected in yaoguai standards of what is 'proper'.

I understand that there are demon kings, and could we say that they have their own territories and subjects?

Each Demon King has their own Cave. As you would notice that many caves owned by Demon King have titles to their names, Wukong for example has the Water Curtain Cave. And with a Cave often as their own Moutain. I can't say if EVERY Demon King has a Mountain, perhaps they have a valley or plains, but every Demon King certainly has a Cave and the surrounding area would be their territory.

Do demons always walk alone?

Are you asking if demons travel in herds? No more than humans do. Demons often group together under a King for both security under their king and said power. But demons can be by themselves, making them more vulnerable to attack but this could be for training purposes, undercover work, or they are trying to integrate into human society. In most cases Demons are alone, they are trying to either cultivate or trying to trick humans, so the fewer people, the better. But in most stories, we see demons either being a King and thus having subjects that follow their command or demons are the subjects of a King. It's similar to why humans form villages or nations, security in number, and organization under a military leader. In stories where a demon is alone they are often trying to tick/attack humans and this can be considered part of them trying to cultivate, perhaps trying to get stronger without being limited by being a subject to a king.

They have clans or groups?

I cannot say if they have clans as most demons cultivate to become what they are. FEW demons are biological families as we see a reoccurring pattern that Sworn Brothers are far more common. We only see two examples of demons having children in Xiyouji, that being DBK and Iron Fac having Red Boy and Yellow Brows Demon taking on a human as a wife. It is far more common for demons to steal both male and female partners to be their wife/husband rather than demons marrying each other. For whatever reason I can assume it is often that demons find humans irresistible whether for a human's life force or beauty (or even that they were in love in a past life, revenge on the human's spouse, power, maybe actually true love, etc.) but we don't see a lot of demon with other demons romantically. And fewer pure demon-born children such as Red Boy. White Snake and her husband are an example of having a half-demon child for example. This makes it harder for 'clans' to form.

A good example of a demon 'family' is that the Nine-Headed Lion Spirit adopted around 8 lion grandsons to be under his protection. Rather than having them as subjects he calls them family. Similar is that Wukong did the same with his entire mountain, adopting 47,000 monkeys and naming them after himself as the Sun Clan. I have never seen another demon do such a thing and would not call it the norm, rather Wukong being the exception to the rule. Wukong has been depicted as more eccentric than most demons with his power and charisma.

It could be that demons have a harder time creating children with one another, and perhaps it is easier to create children with humans or have more human (therefore more life force) in the child. It is VERY hard for demons to reach the form where they have a humanoid state, despite how MANY demons we see in Xiyouji, demons finally reaching the human statue takes thousands and thousands of years, so it could just be hard for demons to both reach that state AND then cultivate a child within their bodies if they do not have enough power to spare to keep their human form. This could be another reason demons are more inclined to have human spouses as they would be given their demon spouse the needed qi naturally rather than having to create so much qi themselves.

A rare example of this is like with Jade Face Princess, she is the daughter of another fox king who was 10,000 years old or so but we never see in the novel. It is hard to say that if she is his bio daughter (most likely) and that is how she inherited her wealth but that she could and would still end up so weak in battle. She shows that her true form is a fox, so it is unlikely she is half-human but also hard to say if he was a born demon as well. We so see an example of adoption in the same like as White-Face Fox was adopted by the White Deer Spirit as his direct daughter, despite them being two different pieces. This is just another thing to consider when it comes to how these demons create bond with one another, their godfather/godmother to their god-son/god-daughter being stronger than alliances.

How do female demons differ from male demons?

Females and male demons are pretty easy to differentiate in that the demon will CHOOSE how their physical form will look like. As a reminder demons are animals, plants, and objects that have gained cultivation and thus their physical forms are illusions. They are allowed to choose how the world sees them and thus once they gain a humanoid form (which takes a very long time) they can choose how to look and thus how they with the world to address them as. Green Snake is a good example of this as she was a male snake in her animal form and was able to choose to present as a woman so that she could stay close to White Snake when they cultivated into humans.

Or do you know articles or people who know more about it?

I can recommend a few books if you wish to read but I cannot say if there are articles about this subject.

A CHINESE BESTIARY Strange Creatures from the GUIDEWAYS THROUGH MOUNTAINS AND SEAS

Fantastic creatures of the mountains and seas : a Chinese classic

Chinese Mythology: An Introduction

Handbook of Chinese Mythology

I understand that Wukong was like on a political mission to talk to the demon kings and have a good relationship with them, right?

Wukong was less taking a 'political mission' and rather Demon Kings came to HIM. When Wukong showed off the power of the staff.

Wukong explored many areas in his time and found a lot of friends but that was for his own sake of having fun, rather than trying to make political connections. Rather Demon Kings understood that Wukong was far more powerful than any of them and all 72 made sure to come and pay respect to him to get on his good side else they would be killed like the Demon King of Havoc. This is why you see in some media Wukong be The King of the Demons, as in he isn't just a Demon King but THE King of all Yaoguai. Out of the 72 demon kings, 6 were able to impress him enough to be his sworn brothers. I personally feel that the demon kings were the ones to refer to Wukong rather than Wukong trying to make alliances himself.

I would like to know more about how their "society" (their politics?) works in JTTW and other legends and stories.

From what we can see it is to be expected that Yaoguai society works similarly to human society. Heaven is to be a reflection of human society with ranks, servants, and duties and Yaoguai appears to be the same. But Heaven is supposed to be the prime of example of a perfect society, and rather Yaoguai rather have the "might is right” methods. to show the flaws of society. Demons that are particularly powerful, such as demons with humanoid forms, are the ones in power. The stronger a demon is, the more powerful and influence they will have. Kings are not born, but rather made when a demon has cultivated enough and gained a large following, and thus they are able to claim a Cave and Mountain of their own and their subjects. From there demons are either terrorizing humans or even being able to form diplomaice relationships with humans. We see this with the Nine-Headed Lion Spirit trading with humans are a regular basis (until his grandsons stole the pilgrims' weapons and ruined their relationship with their neighboring kingdom). Powerful Demons turn into Kings and thus have subjects, so it is fair to think that when demons are on their own and interacting with humans so much they are more likely trying to cultivate to gain more power. Weaker demons are either under a Demon King or interacting with humans to eat them to gain enough power to be a Demon King perhaps.

I don’t see a lot of demons interacting with each other if they are not sworn, I would imagine that there is a lot of postering and a lot of double-edged sword dealings. Demons are always run by their own desires, similar to humans but to the extreme, they don’t consider consequences or express empathy more often than not (there are exceptions to this rule just this is the norm I have seen). Demons can form relations and close bonds but as we have seen with DBK and Wukong these relationships are not concrete, as when Wukong was no longer a warlord and was no longer in a position of power over DBK, DBK saw no reason to help Wukong in his plight. Nor do we see Wukong's other sworn brothers after he loses his warlord status. This can be assumed that these relationships are only as strong as long as individuals are useful, but if any of them lose power or status then the relationship will dissolve when it is no longer profitable to keep them. There can be goodwill and we have seen more genuine care between demons such as White Snake and Green Snake but that seems more of a familial relationship over a political alliance.

#anon ask #anonymous #anon #ask #jttw #journey to the west #sun wukong #xiyouji #monkey king #Bull demon king #jade face princess #green snake #legends of the white snake #white snake

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pretty-mik-97 · 30 days ago

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It's funny though that literal adults who went to another world into the body of a noble think that in a historical setting where inequality is rampant, they partake in that inequality and expected to be treated as morally correct cuz they fit in as being the highest in the hierarchy

I do not ever expect a modern person to change the world, revolutions take certain small steps but it doesn't suddenly mean they should be assholes just cuz "everyone rich enough was doing it so why can't I?" No even if you can't destroy the disgusting toxic unequal status quo, the least you can do is to NOT be a part of it, try to be kind and compassionate to people close to you first, try to prevent the abuse if you can, not just do it cuz it's the norm, it's like saying "I can be a mass murderer if someone does it!"

Y'know the Chinese fictional sphere in recent years made works to criticize the attitude/mindset that just because you're from a modern time, you're automatically better than the uneducated ancient backwards people, even though the foundation of modernity is the ancient time or the time that predates it.

Reminds me of that debate over a small story of Journey to the West where the kidnapped princess victim didn't fall in love with her captor cuz they used to be lovers in the past, both were immortals but the girl sadly died and entered reincarnation, when she reincarnated she got kidnapped by her past lover in hope she would remember everything about their past love but if I remember right, she didn't remember and her captor was punished for that, they didn't end up together happily

Lots of people hated that cuz "it's not a good romance ending and they should be happy together" others just simply said cuz Wu Cheng'en, the author of Journey to the West, was a wise man and he thinks very clearly about things: Kidnapping is a crime, whether or not the girl actually remembers, at that point she's already a new person, not the one her captor fell for, the captor is well beloved cuz he's loyal for that long, but some ignore the fact he kidnapped and endangered someone just cuz she's the same person as who he loved but not at all, wow suddenly kidnapping is good cuz it's for true love, I mean the kidnapping plot in short is just Beauty and the Beast and apparently the Beast is literally some stranger who kidnapped the beauty and convinced her he's her true love while she has zero ideas who he is and suddenly she's IN THE WRONG for being rightfully scared and reject him?

I hate this so much and probably Wu Cheng'en too, cuz kidnapping is wrong no matter what period, some said that what Wu Cheng'en would say about this situation of fans hating that he didn't give a couple their happy ending even though it was messed up is: "These modern people are so backwards thinking/ancient", the ironic joke is that only ancient backwards thinking people would romanticize kidnapping but in Wu Cheng'en case, he's the ancient man who have modern ideas while the modern fans have outdated ideals

I'm sure in Wu Cheng'en time he probably read stories about romanticized kidnapping but even so in that time, it's still a crime punishable by law and it's usually tied to major crimes like sexual/human trafficking which are still issues EVEN NOW so yes fuck "the kidnapping is love" trope, this is why he's regarded as a wise literary author cuz he has really forward, modern thinking and it's shown in his work, JTTW

I know Ancient China also has a slavery system and shitty rich people enforced it, human rights are fragile but I still think it's growing considering how if I remember right, Wu Cheng'en lived in the Ming Dynasty and they already have laws regarding punishments of many crimes, yes I KNOW that those laws are abused by the rich to give them zero accountability, it doesn't mean at that time there aren't people who are fed up with it and hated it, I mean I heard that JTTW is Wu Cheng'en commentary and satire of his own period, his own reality at the time and I can see it just in that kidnapping plot and many other arcs in the lores even though I can't name it all since it's been a long time but yes

I don't think that debate has anything to do with ancient values or modern values, it's the basic fact that after a long time of evolution and development people STILL have those stupid shitty ideas that crimes are okay, I do not hate anyone if they have a kink for that and it's mostly harmless, but it's harmful if it's treated as good and shown to naive developing kids and make them think it's okay to love your kidnapper

What do we learn from this? Trust the ancient poets/novelists, they have ideas that even surpassed their period's limitations and have wisdom that we can use even now

I understand the meanings of Wu Cheng'en well despite I have never check out the actual original work cuz I was raised with similar literature, I'm a Vietnamese, Vietnamese literature is made of realism and tragedy, the literature I was taught is always about the "realistic depiction of Life at the time of making" and it's true, it's packed with all kinds of societal issues that are a thing even now and it's not about the authors making rants about their shitty life, it's about how Life is a tragedy but you can still go through it, you can live normally knowing all the cruelties there is to exist in this world, they're like timeless cautionary tales

I mean sure thinking back those literatures are like the letters of the past to future, to me essentially: "Look at this, you don't want to live in this Life, it's literally full of problems but it doesn't mean you can't live how you want, this is why you can live how you want cause you're living a time where you can do so" to put it simple it's "You can change this"

Eh I'm not sure I'm right but I'm bloody hell sure those literatures didn't teach me slavery and assault and mass genocide and ruining people's lives is totally fine and morally right, I'm pretty sure if I say I got taught that it's fine to do crimes by reading a work someone centuries ago wrote about what NOT to do or to make bad metaphorical examples of their periods, they're gonna haunt the living hell out of me cuz THAT'S NOT THE POINT

Can you imagine being a poet living hundreds of years ago writing about how shitty your period is, how some things are very wrong so it must not be endorsed and kids in the future think you were encouraging them to think it's the best time to live in and those wrong things are good things? Not me

Vietnamese literature is also influenced by real history since the history I learned in school is about how since our ancient time of creation, Vietnam has been attacked and tortured countless times by invaders and oppressors and how people used to live in the harshest times, times and times again in the past Vietnam was subjected to many cultural assimilation that are bloody purges to kill anyone who doesn't bow to the invader's demands and wills

We know what it's like to be treated as mere insects anyone can crush because that's how Vietnam used to be to the major foreign powers long ago and even now too, but we don't grow cuz we always stay a victim, we strived to grow up more and more and not just treated as a mere victim to be pitied on, realistically you don't always get special treatments cuz you have been hurt before, it's not disregarding history of what happened, it's putting past that to move forward

I suppose this is why I hate those terrible tropes of excusing crimes cuz my own country was treated the exact same way: Foreign invaders excusing their inhumane crimes against my people with the excuse of teaching us a lesson cuz we're poor and uneducated while all they wanted was a country of people who in their eyes are seen as lesser than human or not humans at all so they can abuse however they like

I certainly would hate being seen as this girl who came from a country of dumb weaklings that got bullied by bigger countries and being treated as just that

The kidnapping crime being tied to human trafficking is the current biggest issue in Vietnam where people are tricked into slavery and before they were normal, now after returning from those slavery camps, they're literally broken, they're forever scarred till they die too and somewhere in this world, a bunch of people are making stories of how being kidnapped and enslaved are romantic, makes you think why even in times where slavery and kidnapping are the norms so long ago, many rejected these norms and outright condemned it in their writings that survived even now

Ig I'm proud that I was taught patriotism that isn't about treating your country as the number 1 best thing and treating any other countries as lesser unimportant things compared to mine but it's about loving and protecting your country while also making good friends with those not of the same country despite all differences while also knowing that everyone isn't your friend and to be cautious

This is why I'm very open with making new friends in the cyber space and although I might not completely understand their cultures or countries, I'm willing to learn and ofc to be careful with those that aren't here to have fun or make friends but to mess with people

Food for thought 👏🏼

I do agree with your viewpoints about just because it was normal back then, doesn't make it right. People have to consider that times are changing. People are evolving. And the world is modernising.

Point 1 -> "I do not ever expect a modern person to change the world. revolutions take certain small steps but it doesn't suddenly mean they should be assholes just cuz "everyone rich enough was doing it so why can't I?"

This kinda reminded me of Divorcing My Tyrant Husband, when Robelia bought slave as a way to free them.

I mean, I see what you're trying to achieve, and it is coming from a good place, but you could have ordered the slave traders to free the slaves instead of buying their freedom. Like, sis, you're the empress. You literally have the power to back you up. And you don't have to worry about Alexandros intervening and contesting against that. That possessive, controlling narcissist would let you get away with it and let you do what you want if it that's going to stop you from divorcing him.

#webtoon #manhwa #mikky's asks

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ryin-silverfish · 2 months ago

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Local FSYY blogger here, giving my two cents.

General Thoughts:

-You are right that Ming Shenmo novels pretty much inspired most of the "Chinese Mythos" in popular culture. However, some Chinese Mythology scholars don't count any of the vernacular novels as proper "Mythology", presumably because there's too much folk religion and Buddhist-Daoist influences?

-Yuan Ke certainly is of the opinion that works like JTTW or White Snake should be considered "New Mythology", in contrast to the classical myths of Shanhai Jing and Qin-Han era works.

-I personally see FSYY as a "pantheon-building" project with HUGE influence on the Shenmo novels that come after, as well as IRL folk religion iconography.

The Main Body of the Article:

-The Haotian/JE divide is a pretty ambiguous thing in the novel too.

-"Jade Emperor" is only used in Chapter 12 and 13, during Nezha's origin story, to refer to the Big Honcho in Heaven, while Haotian is used everywhere else in the book, which has caused some scholars to theorize that the Nezha story is an independent tale inserted into the FSYY story cycle by the author-compiler.

-However, based on the little context we have, I lean more towards the interpretation that Haotian and JE are used interchangeably by the author-compiler.

-The Three Pure Ones brought up in this post are the highest deities of the Institutional Daoist Pantheon, but, being a pantheon-building project that takes most of its inspiration from folk religion, FSYY has its own divine hierarchy.

-Basically: Hongjun, the FSYY original character, is the highest and oldest immortal master. He teaches the Way to three disciples: Yuanshi, Tongtian, and Laozi.

-Though people like to headcanon Tongtian as Lingbao Tianzun, there is no evidence supporting that in the novel, and Chan & Jie are just...original Daoist sects.

-Speaking about their names: 阐教 is a term used in Ming sources outside of the novel, basically a shorthand for "Righteous Religion". Jie is more ambiguous, but I like Li Yihui's theory that it comes from 海外有截, a line from the Book of Poems that's taken literally as "There's a Jie Sect overseas."

(Also, the 阐 of Chan Sect is not the 禅 of Chan Buddhism.)

-There is, however, Laozi's special attack in Chapter 77, the "Three Purity in One Breath", where he basically created 3 clones based on the iconography and title of the Three Pure Ones during his fight against Tongtian.

-Also, there is a single line in Chapter 15 about the origin of the Investiture: when the Heavenly Emperor was looking for recruits, he actually ordered the "12 head immortals" to become his officials.

-In response to that, the "Three Religions", Chan, Jie, and the "Human Way" get together to create the Investiture——the list of folks who'll die in the upcoming Peril of the Shang-Zhou conflict and be recruited into the Celestial Bureaucracy as new gods.

-Judging from context, these 12 immortals likely refer to the 12 disciples of Yuanshi Tianzun (there are no other groups of 12 in the novel, really…). But wait, what the hell is the "Human Way"?

-Well…though Laozi is very much allied with Yuanshi Tianzun, he also has his own Eight View Palace at Xuandu Cave, instead of Jade Emptiness Palace of Mt. Kunlun, the Chan Sect headquarter.

(Maybe he's Chan Sect's associate professor or something.)

-And he's involved in the drafting of the Investiture, so maaaaybe he represents the "Human Way". The "Three Religions" sure don't stay consistent in this novel, especially when you take Sage Zhunti and Jieyin of the Western Sect into account.

-Who are the Western Sect? Basically, FSYY's Buddhism expy in Daoist trenchcoats.

-Probably because it is known, even in popular history, that Buddhism definitely wasn't a thing in Shang dynasty China, the author-compiler decides to create a Proto-Buddhist faction called the Western Sect (西方教).

-Sage Zhunti is based on Bodhisattva Cundi, while Jieyin is based on Amitabha. They basically serve 2 roles in the story: 1) Be a Deus Ex Machina who shows up to help the Chan Sect get rid of a giant roadblock, and 2) whisk away Jie disciples who are "destined for the Western Lands" like Pokemons.

-Some Chan immortals, like Sage Randeng and 4 of the Chan 12, also end up as Buddhas and Bodhisattvas way after the Investiture War.

"His sect is called the 截教 or Jie Sect. His sect takes in all manners of people under the sun and is less proper, but also smaller than the Chan Sect."

-Yes, Patriarch Tongtian is very much a guy for universal education, who'll take in yaoguai disciples, women, demonic-looking guys, and the occasional cannibal. However, Jie Sect is also huge as a result and NOT smaller than the Chan.

-To show the size discrepancy, let's tally up all the named Chan members and associates in the FSYY novel.

Sect Leaders: Yuanshi Tianzun, Laozi (arguably)

Yuanshi's direct disciples: Old Man of the South Pole, Jiang Ziya, Shen Gongbao

Laozi's disciple: Grand Daoist Master of Xuandu

Senior Disciples and notable allies: Sage Randeng, Chan 12, Yunzhong Zi, Sage Du'E, Lu Ya

Junior Disciples (students who studied directly under the Chan 12 and JZY): Nezha, Yang Jian, Tu Xingsun, Huang Tianhua, Jinzha & Muzha, Yin Jiao & Yin Hong, Wei Hu, Yang Ren, Han Dulong & Xue E Hu, Dragon-bearded Tiger, Wu Ji

Acolytes: White Crane Boy, Golden Ray Boy, White Cloud Boy, the 2 Golden Hair Boys Yang Jian picked up during his weird sidequest

The Redshirt NPCs from the Ten Formations, who refer to themselves as disciples of the Jade Emptiness Palace instead of “unaligned immortals” (散人): Deng Hua, Xiao Zhen

Disciples of Chan allies: Leizhen Zi, Zheng Lun, Li Jing

-I'm sure I'm missing someone, but that's a total of 46 people, and I'm already being pretty generous with my definition by including some allied Daoists.

-For comparison, in Chapter 84, even after most of the Jie Sect have been decimated during the Ten Thousand Immortal Formation, Patriarch Tongtian was still said to have 200-300 students left at his side.

-You know, if my sect only has 40+ important people and the Heavenly Emperor wants to recruit over a fourth of my entire student population, I may just drag the much larger rival sect into Ancient China's Bloodiest Pantheon Recruitment Program to even out the quota too.

-Anyways, a bit of additional detail about the Simp Poem Incident: summoning the Three Demonesses of Xuanyuan Tomb is actually not Nvwa's first choice.

She'd have gone and smited King Zhou herself, but was blocked by two red beams emitted by King Zhou's princes, marking them as Fate's Essential NPCs and telling her that the Shang still had 28 years of lifespan left.

-Only the Jade Pipa Demoness gets discovered and burned by Jiang Ziya, but he doesn't do the job thoroughly, and Daji finds a way to nurse her back to health. The Three Demonesses were executed together at the end of FSYY.

-Regarding Daji the Girl: in FSYY proper, Su Hu actually rebelled against King Zhou at the beginning of the novel when ordered to give up his daughter, Daji, as a concubine. A battle was fought, before Su Hu was persuaded by King Wen to give up Daji.

-However, while on their way to the capital, the Nine-tailed Fox consumes Daji the Girl's soul and possesses her empty body. She doesn't kill herself in either FSYY or the novel's predecessor, Wuwang Fazhou Pinghua.

"The two sects both don't want their disciples to die and leave their sect weakened in comparison, so they go home to tell their disciples, listen up and don't cause any trouble."

-Only true for the Jie Sect. Patriarch Tongtian puts up a notice at Biyou Palace, basically telling his students "Don't go outside, you will be Investiture'd." Let's just say…they don't take the warning seriously.

-In contrast, the Chan 12 know they are Fated to participate in the Investiture War. It is part of their Peril, the consequences for failing to "Severe the Three Corpses" and breaking prohibitions against killing, and only by surviving this Peril can they progress further in their cultivation.

"However, there's this one dude: his name is 申公豹 Shen Gong Bao (Panther Elder Shen, where Shen is just his last name) and he got kicked out of the Chan sect for being an asshole. He's also a panther spirit. "

-Not true. Shen Gongbao is always referred to as a (traitorous) Chan disciple, despite being on oddly good terms with Jie immortals. He is also never said to be anything other than a human in the FSYY novel, despite the "leopard/panther" in his name, and his steed isn't even a leopard, but a tiger.

-And yeah, he's also never kicked out officially by the Chan Sect, even though they really should. When he first shows up, he nearly convinces Jiang Ziya to burn the Investiture and aid the Shang instead of Zhou via the magical trick of cutting his head off and staying alive.

-However, Old Man of the South Pole shows up and orders White Crane Boy to snatch his head away. He would have died if Jiang Ziya didn't plead for mercy on his behalf, and he repaid the guy by starting a personal campaign of spite against JZY and sending 36 armies in Xi Qi's way.

"He decides he's going to get some revenge on the Chan sect, so he tells everyone in the Jie sect that working for the King of Shang (remember, asshole dictator) is great: he treats all his subordinates really well, and that his bad reputation is just the Chan sect being stuffy old dudes. He wants the Jie sect to go fight for the asshole King of Shang against the Chan sect."

-Mostly True: though Shen Gongbao certainly dragged a lot of Jie immortals into the war and turned a few Chan disciples against their masters, Grand Tutor Wen, very important and respected Shang minister and Jie disciple, is actually the first character to get his sectmates on Nine Dragons Island involved.

-Which triggered a whole chain of events that set the Cycle of Revenge in motion.

"I'm assuming Tongtian Jiaozhu is really fucking mad that his disciples are all idiots, but now 90% of his sect is super, super dead and working depressing government cubicle jobs (the ones that are better trained are doing special ops work)."

-Oh, he certainly is. When Guangcheng Zi shows up to return the treasure of a Jie disciple he slew to the Jie Sect headquarter, he nearly gets mobbed by their angry disciples three times, despite Tongtian being like "You only have yourself to blame! Let the guy go, FFS!"

-That said…immediately after Guangcheng Zi finally left Biyou Palace, he had a lapse in judgement.

Patriarch Tongtian: "I told y'all not to go outside, why won't you bloody listen” Sage Duobao: "But Guangcheng Zi talked shit about us" Patriarch Tongtian: "BITCH"

-No kidding, that's pretty much how the scene has gone.

-As a Jie Sect liker: Tongtian, I love your commitment to universal education, but frankly, you buying into Duobao's lies and proceeding to try to get even with the Chan Sect through the Immortal Killing Formation and Ten Thousand Immortal Formation has probably gotten more of your students killed than Grand Tutor Wen and Shen Gongbao combined.

Chinese Mythology: Investiture of the Gods and the Heavenly Court

If there is one piece of literature that can define the mythology of an entire culture, what would that be? The Bible? The Homeric Epics? The Vedas?

None of these works can encompass an entire pantheon or mythological universe. Similarly, Chinese mythology does not rely purely on Journey to the West. Two other pillars of mythology are the 封神演义

and the 山海经 (the Classic of Mountains and Seas), an old National Geography magazine with lots of myths thrown in.

There are many, many more ancient and famous works, but these three are generally very widely-known.

I’ll be focusing on the Fengshen Yanyi (Romance of the Investiture of the Gods, or just Investiture of the Gods in general). BTW, investiture means something like inauguration, deification or promotion in case it’s an unfamiliar word.

The Fengshen Yanyi

I covered this one very briefly in my Ne Zha post, linked here, but Fengshen Yanyi was a novel written in the 16th century by Xu Zhonglin.

It chronicled (in a fantastical manner, of course) the war between the King of Shang

and the eventual King of Zhou

It’s treated very much like the Trojan War, in which different gods assist in the battle, and incorporates many classic Chinese heroes.

Since it was written fairly recently by Chinese standards (only a few hundred years ago as opposed to a few thousand years ago), it’s become one of the main sources of information on mythology and the characters within it.

The Zhou/Shang battle itself occurred over 3000 years ago, in 1056 BCE, and lasted some fifty years.

It’s fairly impossible to cover the events of the novel in a single post since that would be the longest post in Tumblr history, but I will only cover its premise, not its plot. Honestly, I’m not even clear on the exact details of the plot of Fengshen myself, since it’s so long and complicated.

Chinese mythology is incredibly complicated. Even the most widely-accepted versions of myths are almost guaranteed to be inaccurate to their original versions thousands of years ago. Dates, times and who’s who are impossible to determine. As such, take what I say with a grain of salt, and do your own research, as painful as it may be. This is only meant to give an idea of what’s going on.

Additionally, the Fengshen Yanyi (also called the Fengshen Bang, or Deification List/Plaque), is just a novel. Think of it as a historical fantasy novel, or the Lord of the Rings Plus. It may be very foundational today, but it’s not the end-all-be-all of mythology. This is also true for Journey to the West, which is a fictional tale!

After all that preamble, let’s begin.

___

So, the highest official is the Haotian Emperor 昊天大帝. He’s the head honcho of the Heavenly Court.

I couldn't find any pictures of the Haotian Emperor (in popular culture he's usually depicted as young and hot, unlike the Jade Emperor, who's usually depicted as an old dude). As I mentioned in my Ne Zha post, it's debated whether or not the Haotian Emperor and the Jade Emperor are the same person.

I will assume them to be different people even though it's like 60% sure they're the same person, since I already referred to the Emperor in my Ne Zha post as the Jade Emperor. As such, Haotian Emperor is higher-ranked than the Jade Emperor, who works for Haotian.

Again! Time for a SUPER LONG backstory that is essential but also not ENTIRELY relevant to the actual plot of Fengshen. Think of this as a description of how the Fengshen Yanyi happened, or like historical background behind a war.

The Heavenly Court, rather than being a loose collection of gods with one ruler like in Greco-Roman mythology, is a proper government, with bureaus, supervisors, and minimum wage office workers. As such, it’s not exactly super desirable to work for the Heavenly Court.

Sure, you get to be a god, but it’s also the equivalent of working a cubicle job for eternity. You’re also a very lowly god: most heavenly officials aren’t powerful, just old: you could even get your ass kicked by a random monkey (foreshadowing).

Not fun.

The Haotian Emperor is feeling a little lonely and overworked. He thinks there’s not enough workers in the Heavenly Court, so he wants to do some hiring (more on this later! Keep this part in mind.)

Who’s currently up in Heaven? Well, in Daoist mythology, the Dao created one, one created two, two created three, and three created everything (道生一，一生二，二生三，三生万物). What this means is that the Dao created the foundations of the world: the Three Pure Ones, three super-old super-powerful immortals.

These three super powerful immortals are as follows:

元始天尊 Yuanshi Tianzun, or Primordial Heavenly Lord

This is him in Ne Zha 1 (2019).

After he was created, he oversaw and supervised the creation of everything else.

灵宝天尊 Lingbao Tianzun, or Treasured Heavenly Lord

Lingbao Tianzun was created from Yuanshi Tianzun.

道德天尊/太上老君 Daode Tianzun (Virtuous Lawful Heavenly Lord) or Taishang Laojun (High Elder Lord)

The reason he has two names is because it’s unknown if Taishang Laojun and Daode Tianzun are the same person by different names: the answer is probably, but not 100%. He is the oldest, most powerful one. He is also considered to be Lao Zi (Lao Tsu), the founder of Daoism (I sometimes switch between Daoism and Taoism, but they’re the same thing).

In the above picture, Daode Tianzun is on the left, Yuanshi Tianzun is in the middle, Lingbao Tianzun is on the right. Yuanshi and Lingbao look very similar, but you can always identify Daode since he's the oldest one so he's the only one with white hair.

However, these three, despite being at the centre of everything, are not the most powerful. Chinese mythology and Daoism are messy. Stay with me: I promise I’m getting to the actual explanation of the Fengshen Yanyi soon.

The Creation Spirit created more beings before these three pure ones. One of these beings is called 鸿钧老祖 Hongjun Laozu, or Grandmaster of Eternal Balance

Could not find a picture of him, so just imagine a super old guy with big fancy robes.

(There is another one of these beings called Nuwa, the mother of all: she essentially sculpted humans out of clay. Keep her in mind, she’s important).

This is Nuwa! Technically her name is Nüwa, it's pronounced Nyoo Wah.

He takes three disciples: the Three Pure Ones, Yuanshi Tianzun, Lingbao Tianzun, and Daode Tianzun.

Sometimes, these three disciples are Yuanshi Tianzun, Lingbao Tianzun, and another guy called 通天教主 Tongtian Jiaozhu (Teacher of All Through Heaven, or Grandmaster of Heaven). Tongtian Jiaozhu is the one that appears in Investiture of the Gods.

Yuanshi Tianzun and Daode Tianzun (Lao Zi) create the 阐教, or the Chan Sect to teach Taoism their way. The features of the Chan Sect are that there is no one leader- Yuanshi Tianzun and Lao Zi both teach the sect, they pick their disciples very strictly and only choose the best of the best, and every single disciple must follow strict rules and live very properly.

Fun fact: I’m sure you’ve heard of the concept of Zen. Zen is just the Japanese pronunciation of Chan: Chan Buddhism (or Zen) is the most widely-practised version today.

However, Tongtian Jiaozhu creates his own sect instead of the Chan Sect because he doesn’t like the prim and proper way they do things. His sect is called the 截教 or Jie Sect. His sect takes in all manners of people under the sun and is less proper, but also smaller than the Chan Sect.

Why do I even mention these 2 sects? Well, in Investiture of the Gods, the main conflict is between King of Shang and King of Zhou (who wants to overthrow him since King Shang is a tyrannical brutal ruler), right?

Nope! In fact, it’s really more of a conflict between the Jie and Chan sects. The Zhou/Shang war is more of an excuse to go to war. The Jie fight for the King of Shang, and the Chan fight for the rebellion (for the eventual King of Zhou).

Why use the Zhou/Shang war? Well, the King of Shang kind of sucks, so people want a way to get rid of him. Remember Nuwa, the mother goddess who created humans? She also, by the way, made pillars to hold up heaven, so she’s a big deal.

Well, the King of Shang goes to her temple to worship but gets sloppy drunk and hits on a statue of her. This is like the equivalent of Trump (or *Insert World Leader*, I guess, depends on your politics) sending a tweet saying he’s going to fuck the Virgin Mary. The King of Shang leaves a sex poem about Nuwa on the wall of her temple.

Nuwa sees this and gets super mad. She summons a 1000-year-old nine-tailed fox spirit. Fox spirits are generally seen as promiscuous sexual spirits, who disguise themselves as beautiful women and bewitch men to bring about the downfall of dynasties.

Nuwa tells the fox spirit that if she can bring down the Shang dynasty, she’ll make her immortal. (In the novel she sends two other spirits as well, one a spirit of a pipa, which is an instrument, and the other a spirit of a nine-headed pheasant, but these two aren’t as important as Daji, and they both get discovered and executed anyway).

This is the Zhiji Jing (Pheasant Spirit)

This is the Pipa Jing (Pipa Spirit), ignore the watermark, I copied this from Google. Pipa is almost like a Chinese cross between a guitar and violin. It's a very elegant and beautiful sounding instrument.

This is Daji, accompanied by a photo of the actress who plays Daji in the recent Fengshen movie series. The movies are a solid 7.5/10, pretty good but not SPECTACULAR, but Na Ran's acting as Daji is amazing. She also happens to be gorgeous!

Sweet deal! The fox agrees and disguises herself as a gorgeous war prize taken by the King of Shang. The body she inhabits is called Su Daji, who is the daughter of one of the regional lords conquered by the King of Shang.

In the original tale, Su Daji’s father (this story is a little muddled, so read this part with a big maybe) gifts her to the King of Shang to appease him. Asshole dad.

Another version is that Su Daji is sent away by her father for her safety and kills herself to avoid being taken as a concubine by the King of Shang- very unfortunately for her, the fox spirit inserts herself into her body to bewitch the King. (Fox spirits are generally cruel, and it’s a huge dick move to have someone use your body to sleep with your biggest opp).

When Daji arrives, she immediately catches King of Shang’s attention. He becomes absolutely bewitched by her, and spends so much time, money and thought on her that he neglects his state and begins ruling with a tyrannical iron fist. Daji, since she’s really a fox spirit, is cruel and sadistic, and invents a number of scary torture devices to torture King of Shang’s opps.

You can Google these devices yourself. A little gruesome to repeat.

One of the most famous parts of the Fengshen Yanyi is what’s called the Deer Pavilion 鹿台, which is an example of the ostentatious and luxurious nature of the acts King of Shang did for Daji.

In the Deer Pavilion, the King of Shang builds a lake filled with good wine and constructs a forest of meat for him and Daji to lounge in. Wine pool meat forest 酒池肉林 (jiu chi rou lin) is now a Chinese saying for excessive extravagance.

The entire nation is super, super mad at the King of Shang and Daji, and decides to revolt against them. This rebellion is led by Ji Fa (the eventual King of Zhou) and Jiang Ziya, his tactician (think of Jiang Ziya as Odysseus: the clever, capable and clear-headed strategist). BTW Jiang Ziya is Ji Fa’s father-in-law, so it’s not exactly an Agamemnon-Odysseus relationship.

OKAY!!!

Remember when I said the Haotian Emperor was feeling a little lonely up in heaven and wanted some workers? Feels like a century ago.

The three immortals in charge of the Chan and Jie sects (Yuanshi Tianzun and Lao Zi for the Chan sect, and Tongtian Jiaozhu for the Jie sect) decide they’re going to make what’s called a Fengshen Bang.

Roll credits!

Just kidding. You wish.

As I said, Fengshen Bang means Deification Plaque, or a less proper translation is just List of Gods to Promote. What are the contents of this Fengshen Bang?

Remember when I said working for the Haotian Emperor isn’t exactly a good thing? In fact, it kind of sucks. The prerequisite for getting more workers in heaven is that whoever goes to work for the emperor has to die first and spend the rest of eternity working a cubicle job if they suck and if they’re powerful they end up like a special ops force, just with no glory or money. Who TF wants to do that?

Think of the Fengshen Bang as the Death Note of ancient China. The Haotian Emperor and the three immortal sect masters can tell that a bunch of people are going to die in the upcoming Zhou/Shang war, so they decide that whoever dies in the war will get their name put on the Fengshen Bang and die.

There’s another interpretation that they just put a whole bunch of names on the Fengshen Bang before the war and whoever manages to not die gets their name taken off.

It can also be interpreted as Santa Yagami’s naughty list: whoever misbehaves gets their name put on as well.

Either way, it’s functionally the same: no one wants their name written down on that list!!

The two sects both don’t want their disciples to die and leave their sect weakened in comparison, so they go home to tell their disciples, listen up and don’t cause any trouble.

The war isn’t that long compared to the life of a cultivator (functionally immortal compared to only 50 years of war) so as long as you keep your head down and manage to survive you’ll be okay.

However, there’s this one dude: his name is 申公豹 Shen Gong Bao (Panther Elder Shen, where Shen is just his last name) and he got kicked out of the Chan sect for being an asshole. He’s also a panther spirit. (You may remember him from Ne Zha 1 and 2 if you watched it!)

This is a carving of Shen Gong Bao as well as his appearance in Ne Zha 1 and 2 (2019 and 2025 movies).

He decides he’s going to get some revenge on the Chan sect, so he tells everyone in the Jie sect that working for the King of Shang (remember, asshole dictator) is great: he treats all his subordinates really well, and that his bad reputation is just the Chan sect being stuffy old dudes. He wants the Jie sect to go fight for the asshole King of Shang against the Chan sect.

About half of the Jie disciples are dumb, and think that sounds great! So they descend from their halls and go to find the King of Shang.

Jiang Ziya, the rebellion tactician, anticipated this, and dispatched half the Chan forces to go help fight. The Jie disciples get their asses beat and all die.

This is a painting of Jiang Ziya. Don't question why his forehead is bulging out Megamind-style: that's just his big brain.

This is Jiang Ziya in the Jiang Ziya animated movie (2020) set in the same cinematic universe as the two Ne Zha movies. This movie kind of flopped, but I like the character design at least.

The other half of the Jie sect is like, how dare you try to beat us up! They all go down from their halls to go fight the Chan sect for revenge. Jiang Ziya prepares his troops very well, so the other half of the Jie sect gets their asses beat as well.

Oops! Now the Jie sect ends up functionally all on the Fengshen Bang. Since the Chan sect suffered losses as well, about a third of their newest group of disciples all die as well.

The Haotian Emperor is happy to have an army of minions, everyone else is not happy.

I’m assuming Tongtian Jiaozhu is really fucking mad that his disciples are all idiots, but now 90% of his sect is super, super dead and working depressing government cubicle jobs (the ones that are better trained are doing special ops work).

By the way, remember Ne Zha? After he killed himself graphically and was revived, he survived the entire time and ascended to an immortal to work as a marshall in Heaven.

Working in Heaven is bad if you’re forced to through dying: if you ascend to immortality through cultivation, you’re super powerful and it’s actually a great job.

So Ne Zha is having a great time absolutely smashing up the Jie sect and King of Shang’s forces. Also in Heaven working cushy great jobs are Ne Zha’s asshole dad Li Jing (now ascended to a deity, the Pagoda-Bearing Lord), Ne Zha’s two brothers Jin Zha and Mu Zha, and Erlang Shen (who I will cover in a different post).

These are all “good guys” on the side of the Chan, so they fight against the dictator King of Shang.

Essentially, the story of the Fengshen Yanyi is about a bunch of guys trying very hard not to catch Heavenly Lord Yagami’s attention and end up on the Death Note. However, since most of them are dumb, they fail anyway.

#investiture of the gods #fsyy #fengshen yanyi

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addysfandomdump · 4 years ago

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My Hopes for LEGO Monkie Kid Season 3 (and possibly the rest of the show)

In no particular hierarchy:

- Sun Wukong and Macaque's past

- Red Son returns

- MK gets some fucking therapy

- Macaque gets his musical, bonus if he gets redeemed/allies with MK's crew temporarily and it's a sea shanty between the cast

- Mei gets more screentime

- Sandy gets more screentime

- Freenoodles real

- Pigsy and Chang'e have a ping-pong match (yes this is because of Over the Moon)

- Dad Wukong content

- MK goes apeshit

- Traffic Light Trio real?? Please I just want them to be friends

- Trans Enby MK real

- Enby Bi Red Son real

- Trans Mei real

- More demons from JTTW making an appearance?? 👀 If the Yellow Wind Demon and/or Princess Jade Countenance show up I am going to lose my shit

- Spindrax finally makes an appearance and Mei has a crush on her

- True Fire of Samādhi

- Red Son joins the MK Crew

- MK bastardization arc when??? 👀

- We finally meet Wukong's lawyer

- Sandy and Pigsy's past

- More Dadsy

- Also Pigsy forcing these damn monkies to take care of themselves (MK, Wukong, maybe Macaque if he's there)

- More Jin and Yin

- Wukong finally interacts with the rest of the MK Crew

- MK backstory when???

- Sandy backstory

- Mo Tiger Demon real

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journeytothewestresearch · 7 months ago

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I'm a Theravada Buddhist. I saw many people interpreting the story and meaning behind Black Myth Wukong, differently. But I hope the devs team didn't intend to insult Buddha Dhamma by recreating this new story and distort the meaning of Buddhahood or Enlightenment itself..

I don't know if they intended to insult Buddhism, but I can say that their presentation of Buddhism in the game is disrespectful.

@ryin-silverfish recently posted a wonderful essay on what's known as the "JTTW Conspiracy Theory," which is a method of interpreting the story by twisting details, making the heavenly hierarchy look evil. The game follows this method. I recommend that you read the essay:

I unknowingly ran into the JTTW Conspiracy Theory a couple of years ago. A Chinese article claimed that the Buddha lies in the novel. This is my rebuttal.

#Asks #Journey to the West #Journey to the West conspiracy theory #JTTW Conspiracy Theory #Buddhism #Black Myth: Wukong #Black Myth Wukong

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darkfalcon-z · 5 years ago

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So you want to write a fic/draw fanart about Sun Wukong, but you don't know anything about macaques? I'll share some interesting facts with you I found in the internet (I'm not a primatologist/ethologist, so take it with a gain of salt) there is this cool youtube channel that is mostly about Rhesus Macaques, but you may get bored soon watching because those guys are mostly chilling, eating and grooming all day long and the don't do anything dramatic. Also be warned there are a lot of monkey channels that are essentially animal abuse. Stay away from those - if the monkey is a pet it's animal abuse, if a lot of accidents happen to the monkeys that's staged and it's abuse as well. I’m just writing down things you may want to play with in your fic or art.

Side note: this should be obvious, but if you want to write a fic with Wukong you actually need to do the research into Chinese culture and history.

Now back to macaques (it's mostly about rhesus or I'll specify otherwise):

- they have matriarchal society, girl children are preferred over the boys, because the boys would leave the natal group one day, usually when the dominant male decides that he doesn't want them around any more. If the boys grow up too big the dominant male may by too weak to kick them out on his own and he'll have to wait for the support from the females. Smarter and bolder boys may be kicked out earlier, because dad sees them as potential threat. Meek sons of low ranking females may stay longer because they are not a threat/not related to the dominant male.

- there are more females than males in the troop. The males that are the part of the troop usually outrank most females because they are bigger. Outsider males, who only drop by to visit or to mate have lower status, though. So you are in a cushy position if you secure yourself a place in a troop, but if you are a lone male not so much.

- girls inherit status of their moms, they are just below mom in hierarchy, but their place in ranking drops when their sisters are born - younger daughters have higher status.

- youngest daughter of the dominant female becomes next queen. To become the boss the male needs to kick out the previous top male and to gain approval of dominant female. Only the top male in the group can mate with the queen and the pair is supposed to have babies every year. I’m not sure how Wukong would fit in a sexual politics on the group, given that he’s most likely ace. Figuring it out may be one of the plot lines in the story.

- lesser males defend the troop on behalf of the top male, who only fights if the things get really serious.

- top female is the leader for life, top male is replaceable.

- status of females in the group is relatively fixed but your status drops if you have multiple boys in the row, because no one is is going to support you when the boys leave. Having multiple daughters boosts your ranking because they'll have your back. Being in the good graces of resident males, particularly the dominant one won’t hurt you either. But you need to be careful, if you become too bold the high ranking females will put you in your place.

- higher ranking members take food before lower ranking ones, they’ll take your food away if you eat out of rank. Even from your cheek pouches.

- you generally chill with macaques of similar status.

- higher ranking members will discipline lower ones, but they are usually more tolerant towards the babies (except if a baby takes a desirable food out of rank).

- macaques sleep in trees. They also huddle together.

- rhesus don’t eat meat. If you left them meat they won’t touch it/will drop it as soon as they realise it’s meat. They only eat insets, mostly ones they’ve picked while grooming. Long tailed macaques eat meat and shellfish.

- When we are at that long tailed macaques can use stone tools to open shells. It’s awesome but also kind of a problem because long tail macaques have voracious apatites and they will eat as long as there’s food so they are in danger of bringing to population of shellfish to extinction and forgot their technological advancement as a result. In contrast rhesus only eat as long as they are hungry and they will leave even the most attractive food when they are satisfied.

- rhesus eat fruit, seeds, nuts, shoots, flowers (particularly nectar), occasionally leaves and they can eat human food like bread as long as that food doesn’t have meat in it. I’ve seen rhesus eat spoiled milk :/

- they also eat soil, they do it because sometimes plants they eat have toxins and soil helps with that. Also nutrients possibly.

- they have very clean fur. The spend a lot of time grooming (1996 adaptation got it right). You want to romance a potential partner, you groom, you spend time with your family, you groom, you sit alone, you groom yourself, you want to persuade other monkey let you babysit her kid you groom her and then you groom the kid when she finally lets you, you want to make up after a quarrel, you guessed it, you groom. You are a lone bachelor and you’ve met your old auntie, who used to babysit you, you groom. It is all purpose social interaction that also keeps lice and tick of your fur. Macaques don’t generally get flees because they sleep in trees, while flees hop on their hosts from the ground, but they’d rid of fleas any way with all that grooming.

- other multi purpose gesture is showing the rump. You do it to say you’re sorry, to ask for something (usually for other monkey to let you babysit) and when you are flirting. The other monkey make hop on your back to show domination, accept apology or reconciliate. It kind looks like a copulation from afar.

- lip smacking is for showing affection and signalling you want a hug.

- open mouth stare signifies aggression (I think 1986 Wukong does that, when he faces his enemies (?), but I haven’t seen that in other on screen performances).

- yawning with teeth exposed is also aggression/threat (without teeth it’s just yawning).

- barking sound is also a threat.

- showing teeth in a grin is stress/apology.

- they scratch themselves more when stressed (and it’s depicted in several JttW adaptations).

- those guys may steal your food, steal a bag if they think it may contain food and even steal your other possessions in order to exchange for food (or sometimes just to play).

- they know if they show up with a baby in their arms they are more likely to be fed by humans. But at the same time they don’t like humans near their babies.

- macaques get redder during mating period (that is winter), males with more and darker red marks are considered more attractive by females.

- baby season is in the summer.

- girls are usually more developed at birth and grow up faster.

- yearling girls are super interested in the new born babies, boys are usually less interested but they help out sometimes as well.

- nearly all females love babies. They may not want to give the baby back if they are babysitting.

- usually both moms and dads prefer daughters. But there are exceptions because those monkeys are individuals, some actually prefer little boys. There are also females, who don’t like babies that much and little girls who are not interested at all in their younger siblings.

- if a baby dies a mom or babysitter can carry it for days. Sometimes they even carry around miscarried foetuses. They will groom the dead baby as well. Apparently if you’ll try approaching mourning mom other troop members will attack you.

- rhesus males don’t practice infanticide, because the females only get in oestrus at fixed time of the year, long tailed macaques supposedly do to make the oestrus come faster.

- most macaques figure out their own reflections relatively quickly.

- they love how to swim, they are good swimmer and they like to high dive. But they can overestimate their abilities and it’s not rare for them to drown.

- Macaques are somewhere around 2 feet tall (generally shorter than a human toddler, standing up they’d probably reach to your mid thigh depend how tall you are) Sun Wukong is 4 feet tall, that’s as big as modern 7 year old, perhaps he could passed as pre teen in Tang period because people used to be shorter in the past and it took longer for kids to grow. Anyway he’s small for a human but huge for a macaque.

- now for sexual dimorphism (people with trans head-canons take notes, I’m not telling you want to do, but only what you can play with):

- males are bigger and with bulkier shoulders (Wukong is huge anyway, so this one may not be so important),

- males have longer (more prognostic), squarer muzzles and bigger fangs (all male primates have significantly bigger fangs than females save for humans), females have shorter and rounder faces, you can more or leas tell the sex of an adult from the face after you’ve watched them for a while.

- females tend to be redder, both on face on on the buttocks. Older females tend to be redder than younger ones. Males get redder on the face and balls during mating seasons. Males often have only red marks on the upper part of the face, some just look as if they are wearing red eyeliner. Meanwhile a lot of females have whole faces red. I suppose female also get redder during mating season, but it’s not that obvious.

- lactating females have sagging beast, they are visible but usually not particularly big. Females, who don’t lactate don’t heave breasts. They may still have long nipples (in contrast all males I’ve seen have small nipples).

- males have quite big testicles comparatively to their body size, the balls reach almost to their kneed during mating season (when the macaques is on all fours at least).

- like most mammals they have penis bone.

- mounting time is less than 8 seconds for rhesus but the mount multiple time during the same event. Male hops on the top of female and often supports himself by holding her shins in his feet. Female often reaches back grab him with one hand.

- bonnet macaques are known for homosexual behaviour (they are known as the bonobo of macaques).

- Macaques are supposed to have periods but also oestrus cycle?? apparently

- it seems like all rhesus with leucism are female (??) or at least the condition occurs much more often in females. Those monkeys have golden fur and transparent nails. Usually leucistic monkeys are low in group ranking. You may include this fact if you want to write an underdog story.

- usually rhesus fur is combination of light grey, light brown and orange. Head and shouldered tend to be greyer, lower back and legs tend to be more orange, forearms tend to be darker grey, while the belly is much lighter than the rest.

- the winter coat is longer an thicker.

- Rhesus macaques typically have dark nails. They have nails, not claws. In fact almost all monkeys and all Old World monkeys have nails. Hand looks very much like humans. The thumb is just a little shorter and the palm just a bit different shape but you’d be hard pressed to find any hand resembling that of a human even among other primates, you’d get cebids and maybe great apes and that’s it. Actually macaques have closer thumb to finger ration to humans than other great apes.

- macaques do not knuckle walk like apes, instead when they walk on their flat palms.

- the hand does not resemble cat paws at all. It is not padded like cats or dogs’ paws. It looks almost like human hand but with hair on the top.

- needless to say macaques are very dexterous. Their hands are optimised for object manipulation.

- they have longer feet with pointy heel and opposite big toe.

- it’s not rare for rhesus to have brown palms even though they have light pink faces.

- rhesus have relatively short tails. Also no Old World Monkeys have prehensile tales (but you don’t have to draw, just have fun, heck I draw Wukong with long tail even though I think he’s supposed to be rhesus).

- the limbs are also relatively short with arms being shorter than legs.

- those guys are incredibly resilient and can survive losing a limb or two without human medical intervention as long as there are no predators in the area. They can also heal open broken bone.

- also while they discriminate against macaques with golden fur, the don’t seem to discriminate against monkeys with missing limbs or many other deformities.

- oh, yeah, about that, they care for injured macaques or at least if the injured one is their sibling.

- macaque bites aren’t very likely to pierce human skin (zoo keepers claim)

- but be warned you don’t want macaques saliva or other body fluids anywhere near your person because over 80% of their adult population (and about 25% of juveniles) carries monkey herpesvirus B. It hardly cause them any harm but mortality rate in infected humans is over 70% (at least that we know of, fortunately it does not usually spread to humans, there have been only about 40 cases on the record, all in the lab setting). Important note: this virus spreads sexually. Wukong may carry this virus without being aware.

- they have cheek pouches so collars or clothing that is tight around the neck is bad for them. If you put collar on a macaque they wouldn’t be able to eat properly because they usually put their food in the pouches and then gradually swallow.

#macaques #monkeys #sun wukong #macaqe #rhesus macaque #journey to the west #myposting

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dialittlesandbox · 9 months ago

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Season 5

Episode 1: Collar the King Li Jing - Chapter 58 The Pagoda-bearing Heavenly King, is a prominent deity and the father of Nezha and a high-ranking figure in the celestial hierarchy.

Episode 1: Collar the King Pagoda of the Kings - Chapter 58 a powerful and magical pagoda that Li Jing wields. It symbolizes his authority and martial prowess and can shield its wielder and capture and imprison enemies.

Episode 1: Collar the King (I forgot them before, sorry ;-;) Court of the Underworld - Chapter 10 The underworld in Chinese Mythology (also known as Diyu) has multible levels and courts. Commonly shown to have 10 Courts, each ruled by a judge. Each of them is for different types of punishment for different sins. The judges are also known as the Yama Kings and are responsible for judging and punishing the souls of the dead based on their "earthly sins." The first king, Yanluo Wang, is often considered the chief judge and oversees the judgment of souls and the administration of punishments. In JttW the court picks up Wukongs Soul. The Monkey protest infront of the court, telling them they made a mistake. After checking the records for his name and finding it, Wukong crosses it out, adding to his pile of Immortality. (Wukong also crosses any of his monkies names he can find.)

Episode 8: The Cage (Allured to before in "Familiar Tales" S4 E1) Nine Headed Beast/Nine-Headed Lion/Nine-Headed Dragon - Chapter 62 - 63 A fearsome Monster that terrorizes villages and is defeated by the Pilgrims.

Episode 9: Sacrifice (also in a Flashback in "Show me the Monster" S4 E6) Nuwa - Not in JttW A primordial goddess in Chinese mythology, known for creating humanity and repairing the sky. She is revered for her role in molding the first humans from clay and mending the heavens by melted down five-colored stones to patch the holes in the sky, thus repairing the heavens and bringing order back to the world. This act of restoration was crucial in reestablishing harmony between heaven and earth.

Heya LMK Fandom!

I finally got my hands on all 5 Seasons of LMK and while watching S1, I started to wonder which characters/artifacts are from Journey to the West. Down the rabbit hole I go, starting a list that's all about that. For now I used a chapter summary as well as an Episodeguide, cause I haven't read the book yet and Overly Sarcastics Productions (YT channel) to start off and now a PDF of the translated version by Anthony C. Yu. (One of two full translations of Journey to the West) And while I go on and on, I think to myself, maybe somebody else would like to see that list as well, so I decided to post it here. Down below you find my sources and said list starting with the Pilot. I shall add more as I go on.

Scources: Episodelist on fandom.com Chapter Summaries of Journey to the West Overly Sarcastic Production Journey to the West PDFs of the Journey to the West 2012 Revised Edition by Anthony C. Yu

The following Template will be seen: Season, Episode: Name character/artifact - Chapter in Journey to the West Description in Journey to the West

Pilot: Monkie Kid: A Hero is Born Monkie Kings Staff - Chapter 3 Description: After defeating "The Monsterous King of Harvoc" that'S been stealing monkies from Flower Fruit Mountain. Afterwards, the Monkey King decides that they'll need an army to defend themselves and he himself a weapon. So he visits the Dragon Palace in the Eastern Ocean and ask to "borrow" a weapon from that Dragon King. After much searching, Sun Wukong settles for a " heavy (17550 lbs or 7960,546 kg) magic size-changing iron pillar"

Red Son - Chapter 40-42 Description: The Son of the Bull Demon King that's terrorising a mountain and the spirit population living there after spending years on training up his fire abilities. Now he can call upon the "true Fire of Samadhi" and was originally send there by DBK to guard the mountain. Monkey King fights him (after Red Son kidnaps Tripitaka), but with that fire on the demons side they call upon Guynyin to help out. Only then are they able to defeat Red Son and he is taken under Guynyin's care as a servant.

Princess Iron Fan's Fan - Chapter 59-61 Description: After arriving at a mountain that is on constant fire (Fault of Monkey as one of the coals that were used to cook out the immortality pills off him got shot down and lit said fire when he escaped the coltr, the the pilgrims learn from the locals that they'll need the magical palm-leaf fan from Princess Iron Fan to extinguish said fire. The fan can produce such powerfull winds, that any who stand in it's way will be blown over 84 miles (135,1849 km).

Princess Iron Fan/ Rakishasi - Chapter 59-61 Description: Wife of the Demon Bull King, the Princess was currently suffering under the absence of her husband and that her son is now a servant under Guynyin and she can't visit him. Those frustation she takes out on Monkey but can't defeat him but also refuses to give out her fan at first. At the end, she does give it up willingly, reflecting and coming to the conclusion that she wants a better life for herself. Monkey sees that she has "already worked her way up to a real human body*" and contiunes to better herself after.

Demon Bull King - Chapter 59-61 Description: Leaving his wife, Princess Iron Fan, to guard Princess Jade Countenance - daughter of a tenthousend year old fox spirit, who was very rich and died. The princess offered all that money as a dowry to the Demon Bull King and he accepted. After causing sooo much trouble the entire celestial army comes to help out, Bull Demon King surrounders and is transported off.

#lmk #diarambles #lego monkie kid

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journeytothewestresearch · 2 years ago

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I have had this doubt

I understand that in the book there is a lot of mention of gods and demons (or evil spirits I think), such as the bull demon king, scorpion demoness, white bone demon, the great yellow eyebrow king (I think that's his name and one of the few demons that really caused Sun Wukong a lot of trouble), among many others

But my question is... How do the different types of demons arise there? (Of course, except for the ones that are gods and immortals that were expelled/exiled from heaven, I understand that's one way, right?)

🤔

Yes, being expelled from heaven is one way to become a demon. This article explains how having a place within the cosmic hierarchy (i.e. a position in heaven) is what normally separates a god from a demon.

Most of the demons in JTTW are animals who became spirits through Daoist spiritual practices. Sun Wukong is a prime example of this.

Then you have the kind that were simply born into demonhood. The White Bone Spirit falls into this category. Chapter 27 explains:

In this mountain there was indeed a monster-spirit, who was disturbed by the Great Sage Sun's departure. Treading dark wind, she came through the clouds and found the elder sitting on the ground. "What luck! What luck!" she said, unable to contain her delight. "For several years my relatives have been talking about a Tang Monk from the Land of the East going to fetch the Great Vehicle (emphasis added). He is actually the incarnation of the Gold Cicada, and he has the original body that has gone through the process of self-cultivation during ten previous existences. If a man eats a piece of his flesh, his age will be immeasurably lengthened. So, this monk has at last arrived today!" (Wu & Yu, vol. 2, p. 17) 果然這山上有一個妖精，孫大聖去時，驚動那怪。他在雲端裡踏著陰風，看見長老坐在地下，就不勝歡喜道：「造化，造化。幾年家人都講東土的唐和尚取大乘，他本是金蟬子化身，十世修行的原體，有人吃他一塊肉，長壽長生。真個今日到了。」

Source:

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4) (Rev. ed.). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

#Journey to the West #JTTW #demons #monsters #spirits #Sun Wukong #Monkey King #White Bone Spirit #Lady White Bone #Lego Monkie Kid #LMK #Chinese gods #immortals

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journeytothewestresearch · 2 years ago

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@sketching-shark I don't know if broader Chinese mythology mentions humans directly becoming yaoguai. But I do know that Journey to the West treats humans as the penultimate form that members of the lower three realms of rebirth aspire to achieve. Spirits and demons are capable of achieving this form in one of three ways:

Deceptive magical transformations (not a real achievement)

Spiritual practices

Rebirth

Two examples of the second category are the Black Wind Demon and Princess Iron Fan, who "achieve the way of humanity through spiritual cultivation" (xiucheng rendao, 修成人道).

For more information on the cosmic hierarchy of JTTW, see this paper:

While capable of performing deceitful or even murderous deeds, I don't think humans are capable of directly becoming yaoguai in their current life. They must first die and become a spirit, or they must be reborn into one of the aforementioned lower realms before they can become a yaoguai.

By the way, the White Bone Spirit is part of a family of ghouls. This is revealed in chapter 27 when she says: "For several years my relatives have been talking about a Tang Monk from the Land of the East going to fetch the Great Vehicle..." (幾年家人都講東土的唐和尚取大乘...) (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 2, p. 17).

Sources:

Campany, R. (1985). Demons, Gods, and Pilgrims: The Demonology of the Hsi-yu Chi. Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR), 7(1/2), 95-115. doi:10.2307/495195

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

Is it possible for a human to become a yaoguai?

You know, I'm not actually sure if it is or not! I know that there's quite a few stories about yaoguai disguising themselves as humans or striving to genuinely take on a human form, as well as stories about heavenly figures who become yaoguai as a form of punishment. Plus it seems that yaoguai can originate from anything from stones to animals to plants to human bones. But I've never actually encountered a tale about a human becoming a yaoguai in Chinese mythology or folklore...I did see a retelling of Journey to the West where the Lady Bone Demon used to be a human before she was sacrificed and her hatred and despair brought her back as a yaoguai, but that was a 21st century retelling. If anyone knows of any stories where a human becomes a yaoguai, please let me know!

#yaoguai #ghost #demon #monster #journey to the west #sun wukong #monkey king #jttw #lego monkie kid #cosmic hierarchy #rebirth

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m00n-d34r3st · 3 years ago

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I been thinking the same, because the collective trauma of FFM and possibly the rest of Aioli could play into it as well as putting it all behind them. To honest, she's the physical embodiment of all of that, hams invading and nearly destroying there home and their king having to literally transform into a monster to even ATTEMPT to defend them and still failing. I still thing it's much more, but It is still a big piece.

I also have a personal take, since who her and the twins other parent was never even mentioned, so it's up for interpretation. I already mentioned that she wasn't really planned, her other parent was most likely a humanoid man either being yaoguai or immortal and it not being too healthy and not ending well. As the idea that her immortal killing properties taking effect during gestation and making wukong deathly sick and after all that coming out with her appearance and size..... It's not right, but I wouldn't blame everyone in the room at the time wanting to just throw her out the window or thinking "this fucking baby is cursed." Plus, it would be fair for wukong to lost hims marbles for awhile since what was supposed to be one of the best days of his life is literally everyone your loved, protected, and knew for almost forever avoiding her like the plague or straight up convincing him get rid of her. Them watching her develop and grow as well as it even being uncanny even for a yaoguai baby, getting teeth way too early amd towering over her father at 10 or 12. Plus, the difference would be more jarring along side her siblings, when they came along.

Also on the note of her being the only known daughter of wukong in jttw literature despite how non-canon and being the most mistreated isn't surprising as of how they viewed daughters, especially ones who were considered unattractive at the time and even today. It makes more sense, why there would be spite or harsher standards placed on to her, if you look at macaques social hierarchy and structure. In nature, female macaques are the heads of their tropes, because, while males leave as soon as puberty to not only find a suitable new trope, but also work their way up, so come time their mature enough to mate they have the best chances, females stay within the trope they were born into a inherit positions from their female parent or relatives. So, basically she's not socially acceptable enough to gain her own allies in high places, or charming enough to win over the masses and definitely not pretty enough to catch the eyes of someone that would marry into her family and be the things she's lacking.

So basically she's dead weight on paper, especially since social ties are also very important to macaques, so her lacking them and many of their own discouraging others to have them with her would be damning, especially compared to her father. So, when MK or Chen Xiang comes around they see them as gaining something back from having to be stuck with her. And this also play into her relationship with her sisters and brothers, because the amount of envy she would feel, but also many putting pressure on her sisters, especially the one after her to pickup to the perfect princess yuebei can't be.

As for Jidu and Luohou, I think they are socialites at their finest, they know they positions as princes won't last long, so they are getting out of it what they can to better chances of a better social circle, when it's time to leave the nest. One accepted the reality of it and purposely is a bit more zealous than he should be because of the whole "what else is there for me?" Mindset and the other is being equally or more so overzealous in the name of achieving his dream or goal any means necessary. All I have for the second daughter is she's basically took to shouldering all the social expectations herself to the point of holding herself and even her siblings to unhealthy standard of perfection and is all about that prim and proper princess life. While, she loves the spotlight, there is always an element of her trying to offset the social distaste caused by yuebei as well as a bit resentment towards her after years of seeing wukong having to always go the extra mile for her as well as being known as the better version of your eldest sister is still being known as a version of your eldest sister and not yourself.

For Yuebei, sadly I can see her finally melting down after years of her being mistreated and left out; rightfully so as a preteen girl would, but we her size an natural abilities for magic, she would be seen as a threat or cause some damage. Wukong would be outnumbered and forced to send her away to a boarding school of sorts of yaoguai or demon children in general. I'm working on this story, but a sad yet valid thing about it is she would most likely get used to it or even prefer it, because yes the other would be cruel to her, but she rather it be kids her age and adults that she would only know for school or won't be there next year, than her own people that has been doing the same to her since the day she was born and in her mind, focusing on what actually makes her useful and not cause her dad as much stress.

It's all just...

I'm sorry, but I can't believe how everybody is sleeping in Yuebei, like she's prime real estate for so much angst and fluff. Like, she was literally born to one of the most feared, yet respected or even beloved demon king and god with many allies and resources that ensure your going to be a powerful person, only for there to just be something you were born with that makes even the most starch of demons get the ick and even have your subjects that are like your siblings in a way to not even be afraid to call you a hideous abomination.

Like, I know the journey to the south isn't considered canon to jttw and she only showed up for a bit, but there is so much that could be done with her. Like, how wukong having looks on him that got him the title handsome or pretty monkey king effected her and how she could be constantly compared to him or her siblings if she has any as well as her feeling on being a princess despite being seen as bottom of the barrel.

Also how wukong would feel as a parent, I know he's still prideful and would definitely be the "she's very gorgeous to me😤" type parents, but I can't keep he would still struggle especially post jttw and adding on his trauma could complicate things farther.

But yeah, even tho she's an obscure character in an obscure piece of media, but the moment I read about her own subjects insulting her WHILE VOLUNTEERING TO SQUARE UP IN THE NAME OF HER DAD'S HONOR, I was like "Yeah, my giant scrankly princess, I will square up in a Danny's parking lot for you babe." And you should too.

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jttwaudiodrama · 2 years ago

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This is a very thorough explanation (do read it) but just to elaborate a little bit more since a similar question was also sent to us a while back.

First of all, if you are looking for validation for some original idea you have for your own work, just go ahead, not our business. We have no interest in gatekeeping something that's in the public domain. If you worry this may potentially be offensive to the Chinese audience, stop worrying. Chinese readers of JttW have done way more reimagining than you would have in your lifetime. Whether or not we like it on a personal level, this is not something that would offend us.

Second, going back to Production Notes Episode 8, the very real hierarchy between the other three disciples who were given religious names and the young dragon who wasn’t should not be overlooked.

Like we said many times before, dragons are treated as a separate species in JttW from humans. There are real limitations to what roles they can take up even in the world of the divine. When humans, or creatures in human-like form like Wu Kong, are accepted into Buddhism, they can become monks. But for non-human beings like the dragon prince, that option is simply not available. Which is why we said he “didn’t become a monk”. That certainly was not something Guan Yin promised he would be either. The initial idea was to turn him into a tool of transportation with no other apparent obligations attached.

Of course, in practice he is not so different from a monk (eats only vegetables, i.e. grass), but that doesn’t mean the title was ever granted to him. I have family who are casual Buddhists who still eat meat, and of course got married and have kids. Nobody would consider them “monks”. And to say they have “joined the religion” would also feel like an exaggeration. It’s kind of like that for the dragon.

As for 八部 Aṣṭasenā or Eight Legions, this very concept is reserved for non-human deities who serve as guards for Buddha. So when the young dragon prince eventually becomes 八部天龍 (heavenly dragon of the eight legions), he’s basically joining this group of non-human deities. But again, that’s a role awarded to him based on the fact that he completed the journey. And you bet his new obligations would still be very different from conventional monks/Bodhisattva.

And remember how we touched on the word “皈依 convert” in Production Notes Episode 7? This word is used very loosely in the story, so always take context into consideration. Not every appearance of the word 皈依 means someone is being converted to a religion. It sometimes just means “obey”, “submit” or “believe”.

Always remember JttW was created by the grassroot and went through centuries of evolution before being written down as a book. So a lot of the terms are not used in the precise/academic manner that we would have preferred to base any research on. If you see contradictions or inconsistencies in the story, don’t overthink, it’s just the natural part of being created by the collective.

Also, it’s just getting way ahead of ourselves if we dumped every piece of info about the dragon horse in Production Notes 8. So please understand that this part of our series aims to only lightly touch on elements relevant to the corresponding chapter. When the character shows up again, naturally we will elaborate more.

And if you want our earnest answer for the original question: Regardless of whether the young dragon was ever officially made a Buddhist (which strictly speaking, still feels like a very human terms for us but anyway), or whether this process can be undone (in practice, you can unbecome a monk to get married), in the context of JttW, having been through this journey of enlightenment and awarded a prestigious role by Buddha himself, the young dragon would no longer be interested in worldly matters like marriage or romance. The same goes with all other members on the team.

Is the White Dragon Horse Buddhist?

I was recently contacted by a reader on my main external blog. Part of their question asked:

I heard on the Fifth Monkey [@jttwaudiodrama] production notes for Part 8 that the White Dragon Horse wasn’t really converted to Buddhism and thus never “left his family” and obligations. Would this make him eligible for marriage...?

My answer:

There is some inconsistency in the White Dragon Horse’s story. I can’t recall him officially taking vows during the journey, but the Buddha states in chapter 100 that he had (at some point):

Then he [the Buddha] said to the white horse, “You were originally the prince of Dragon King Guangjin of the Western Ocean. Because you disobeyed your father’s command and committed the crime of unfiliality, you were to be executed. Fortunately you made submission to the Law and accepted our vows ... (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). 又叫那白馬：「汝本是西洋大海廣晉龍王之子，因汝違逆父命，犯了不孝之罪。幸得皈身皈法，皈我沙門 ...

He is then elevated in rank to become an Aṣṭasenā, a group of eight celestial beings said to be "in attendance when the Buddha speaks the Mahayana sutras" (Buswell & Lopez, 2014, p. 74). The Buddha continues:

... Because you carried the sage monk daily on your back during his journey to the West and because you also took the holy scriptures back to the East, you too have made merit. I hereby grant you promotion and appoint you one of the dragon[ horses] belonging to the Eight Classes of Supernatural Beings (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). ... 每日家虧你馱負聖僧來西，又虧你馱負聖經去東，亦有功者，加陞汝職正果，為八部天龍馬。」

After transforming back into a dragon, he takes his place atop a Huabiao pillar in paradise:

The elder, his three disciples, and the horse all kowtowed to thank the Buddha, who ordered some of the guardians to take the horse to the Dragon-Transforming Pool at the back of the Spirit Mountain. After being pushed into the pool, the horse stretched himself, and in a little while he shed his coat, horns began to grow on his head, golden scales appeared all over his body, and silver whiskers emerged on his cheeks. His whole body shrouded in auspicious air and his four paws wrapped in hallowed clouds, he soared out of the pool and circled inside the monastery gate, on top of one of the Pillars that Support Heaven (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). 長老四眾，俱各叩頭謝恩。馬亦謝恩訖。仍命揭諦引了馬，下靈山後崖化龍池邊，將馬推入池中。須臾間，那馬打個展身，即退了毛皮，換了頭角，渾身上長起金鱗，腮頷下生出銀鬚，一身瑞氣，四爪祥雲，飛出化龍池，盤繞在山門裡擎天華表柱上。

A huabiao pillar in Xinghai Square, Dalian City, Liaoning Province, China. Via Wikipedia.

A detail of the huabiao dragon finial. Via Wikipedia.

And lastly, JTTW refers to him as a bodhisattva:

I submit to the Bodhisattva of Vast Strength, the Heavenly Dragon of Eight Divisions of Supernatural Beings (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 385). 南無八部天龍廣力菩薩。

So given this info, I don’t think he would be involved in a relationship.

Sources:

Buswell, R. E. , & Lopez, D. S. (2014). The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism. Princeton University Press.

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4) (Rev. ed.). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

#journey to the west #the fifth monkey #chinese literature #xi you ji #bai long ma #white dragon horse #nuance people it's always the nuance

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