#JTTW hierarchy

[journeytothewestresearch]

I know it might be a big request, but can you talk about heaven's hyerarchy in JTTW?? And explain some titles like boddisahtiva (sorry for any typos, english isn't my native language)

I'm a little busy at the moment, but I can give a brief overview as I see it.

The Jade Emperor (JE) is the boss of the universe, but he still has deities over him, such as the Three Pure Ones, of which Laozi (LZ) is an incarnation (of sorts). The novel even describes LZ as the "Patriarch who separated Heaven from Earth"--i.e. the creator of the universe. While technically subordinate to the JE, the Buddha and the Bodhisattvas are the true shepherds of the JTTW cosmos. (In traditional Buddhism, gods are still subject to the illusory world of Samsara, while the Buddha is beyond reality since they have achieved nirvana and broken free from the endless rounds of rebirth. In addition, the JTTW universe is patterned after the Buddhist disc-world system, and the Daoist heavens take the place of the Buddhist heavens in the traditional cosmology.) Despite this, Buddhist deities still act ritually differential to the gods. For example, the Patriarch of Earthbound Immortals (ch. 24-26) is so high-ranking that Guanyin mentions that even she has to be respectful towards him.

The gods of heaven are considered superior to those of the earth. Local gods of the soil and mountains, as well hell judges and their spirit-soldiers, are looked upon as "ghost immortals," the lowest rank. Celestials above are "spirit immortals," the highest rank. "Human" and "Earthbound Immortals" in the middle ranks can become heavenly beings if they are given an official post. But heavenly beings can be demoted to lower ranks for messing up. For example, one of Laozi's fire-tenders in the 33rd Heaven is demoted to a local god of the soil below for failing to help capture Monkey when he escaped from the Eight Trigrams Furnace in chapter 7. And a different local god of the soil in another chapter worries that two mountain gods will be beaten and further demoted to small, out of way shrines for unknowingly dropping their mountains on the Great Sage.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[cloud-somersault]

okay, think about this closely.

What if... flower fruit mountain but more ... monarchy like but in a monkey way... y'know

[ryin-silverfish]

Y'know, as much as I like to sass Li Jing (who deserves every bit of sassing) I'm not exactly a fan of the "power hungry usurper" theory.

Don't get me wrong, Li Jing is an asshole; he's just not that flavor of asshole, both in JTTW and FSYY.

In JTTW, he's the Lawful Stupid general who's way too trigger-happy. Like, he's ready to execute the Mighty Spirit God for losing to SWK, and his reaction to SWK filing a lawsuit against him in the Lady Earth Flow arc is "How dare you sue me! Eat sword!"

That said, he is also terrified of Nezha. In the aforementioned scene, Nezha steps forth to block his blade, and he just panicks bc he forgets to bring his pagoda with him, and thinks Nezha is picking up the whole "patricide" hobby again!

In FSYY, his Asshole Arc starts after Nezha's death, when he shouts at his wife for crying after seeing Nezha in a dream, and later destroys Nezha's temple for fear that it will get him into trouble at court.

Historical context: the last part is reminiscent of the destruction of 淫祠, illicit temples that aren't officially sanctioned by the imperial bureaucracy. Permitting their continued existence may look bad on the local officials, and Li Jing said outright that, since he didn't want to associate with the two corrupt ministers at King Zhou's court, if someone used this to attack him politically, he could very well lose his job.

It's the assholeness of a petty bureaucrat who values his job more than his dead kid, but if he is truly power-hungry, he won't have any problem with bribing the corrupt ministers and getting chummy with them.

...idk man, I feel like Li Jing as your conniving, power-hungry martial usurper archetype is just giving him too much credit. He strikes me as the sort of man who doesn't even have the creativity required to be a proper traitor, and will blindly uphold the old laws and order against all logic and common sense.

That's why I don't have a problem with Li Jing being used as a tool by smarter, more powerful figures and factions. My problem is with the choice of that faction; like, even for a Lawful Stupid celestial with a hard-on for rules and hierarchy, the Dead People Supreme Court doesn't have that kind of authority over him.

[nikofortuna]

JTTW Chapter 4 Thoughts

Chapter Four for the @journeythroughjourneytothewest Reading Group! There will be a bit of a rant in this, especially about the first official title Sun Wukong gets.

Anyway we got Horsegirl Wukong in this one! Yippie!

Plus I would like everyone to see the horses from the 1964 Havoc in Heaven movie. Look at them! They are so pretty with their cloud manes and so cute when they frolic about and interact with Sun Wukong!

He puts so much effort into caring for the horses! And is really nice to the other stable workers as well, I don’t think he really cares much about hierarchy outside of actual work perhaps.

However I will forever be salty towards Heaven for messing up so badly in this. They were halfway there as well with giving him the perfect job, something he liked to do and did very well! But they didn’t give him a special title to reflect/acknowledged his actual power.

Nor did they explain how starting of low and ascending through the ranks works, which might have been able to prevent the outrage as well. They know that they can just explain things to Sun Wukong, the Gold Star literally did so at the Gate. And then the Jade Emperor even acknowledged that the Monkey King didn’t know how things worked yet!

Honestly at that point the only reason has to be that they wanted to mock him. And given the first official title he receives… not only is it conceived as an insult, but as if that wasn’t enough already the big reason why it is so is a practice that I would definitely deem animal abuse.

Hence why I will never call him that or even spell out the title.

Now factor in that Sun Wukong is a major family guy and it gets even worse with the history behind the title essentially being his kin getting enslaved and mistreated. I don’t think he actually knows this though. I’m just saying the Havoc in Heaven could have happened early.

And for what reason did they do that? He was very nice to the Gold Star inviting him to a banquet right away and at court once he did find out that he should pay respect he did bow.

Later this gets contrasted with the Monkey King appointing the one-horned Demon Kings proper positions. He is arguably displaying how he does a better job being a ruler than the Jade Emperor in this case.

Something to lighten the mood again after this lengthy rant, Sun Wukong sharing the wine after he’s officially given the title of Great Sage Equalling Heaven! He’s such a sweet guy! When he’s treated well.

With how often they mention everyone not daring to get in his way, yet he is still said to “fight his way out” I don’t think he is actually doing much more than waving his weapon around in threat if anything. It definitely can’t be actual fighting since nobody dares to engage in combat with him to begin with.

The German translation is coming in with some interesting trivia once again! The red and yellow robe as it is called in the Anthony C. Yu translation that Sun Wukong gets from the one-horned Demon Kings is actually more of an ochre yellow robe [褐黄袍 hèhuáng páo] or the colour of an Ancient Chinese emperor’s robe! This is also confirmed in the Audio Drama.

[the-monkey-ruler]

I understand the rules for gods and their hierarchy, but do we know how the hierarchy and rules for demons work? I understand that there are demon kings, and could we say that they have their own territories and subjects? Do demons always walk alone? They have clans or groups? How do female demons differ from male demons? Or do you know articles or people who know more about it? I understand that Wukong was like on a political mission to talk to the demon kings and have a good relationship with them, right?

I would like to know more about how their "society" (their politics?) works in JTTW and other legends and stories.

but do we know how the hierarchy and rules for demons work?

It's hard to pinpoint ranks in Yaoguai society per se, but from what we can tell they follow a similar structure to heaven based on their military ranks. They have Kings, Generals, rear generals, soldiers, servants, and carriers. This is most likely to reflect how the military was structured in the same time period as well.

Royalty or Yaoguai with Princess, Queen, or King in their name are often the heads of their armies, with both soldiers and servants under their command. We see this often in Xiyouji where Demon Kings are in charge of their forces and depending on the demons directly interact with servants or soldiers. It should be noted that for Women Demon Queen/Princess they only had other women servants as that was considered proper in human society as well at the time and it reflected in yaoguai standards of what is 'proper'.

I understand that there are demon kings, and could we say that they have their own territories and subjects?

Each Demon King has their own Cave. As you would notice that many caves owned by Demon King have titles to their names, Wukong for example has the Water Curtain Cave. And with a Cave often as their own Moutain. I can't say if EVERY Demon King has a Mountain, perhaps they have a valley or plains, but every Demon King certainly has a Cave and the surrounding area would be their territory.

Do demons always walk alone?

Are you asking if demons travel in herds? No more than humans do. Demons often group together under a King for both security under their king and said power. But demons can be by themselves, making them more vulnerable to attack but this could be for training purposes, undercover work, or they are trying to integrate into human society. In most cases Demons are alone, they are trying to either cultivate or trying to trick humans, so the fewer people, the better. But in most stories, we see demons either being a King and thus having subjects that follow their command or demons are the subjects of a King. It's similar to why humans form villages or nations, security in number, and organization under a military leader. In stories where a demon is alone they are often trying to tick/attack humans and this can be considered part of them trying to cultivate, perhaps trying to get stronger without being limited by being a subject to a king.

They have clans or groups?

I cannot say if they have clans as most demons cultivate to become what they are. FEW demons are biological families as we see a reoccurring pattern that Sworn Brothers are far more common. We only see two examples of demons having children in Xiyouji, that being DBK and Iron Fac having Red Boy and Yellow Brows Demon taking on a human as a wife. It is far more common for demons to steal both male and female partners to be their wife/husband rather than demons marrying each other. For whatever reason I can assume it is often that demons find humans irresistible whether for a human's life force or beauty (or even that they were in love in a past life, revenge on the human's spouse, power, maybe actually true love, etc.) but we don't see a lot of demon with other demons romantically. And fewer pure demon-born children such as Red Boy. White Snake and her husband are an example of having a half-demon child for example. This makes it harder for 'clans' to form.

A good example of a demon 'family' is that the Nine-Headed Lion Spirit adopted around 8 lion grandsons to be under his protection. Rather than having them as subjects he calls them family. Similar is that Wukong did the same with his entire mountain, adopting 47,000 monkeys and naming them after himself as the Sun Clan. I have never seen another demon do such a thing and would not call it the norm, rather Wukong being the exception to the rule. Wukong has been depicted as more eccentric than most demons with his power and charisma.

It could be that demons have a harder time creating children with one another, and perhaps it is easier to create children with humans or have more human (therefore more life force) in the child. It is VERY hard for demons to reach the form where they have a humanoid state, despite how MANY demons we see in Xiyouji, demons finally reaching the human statue takes thousands and thousands of years, so it could just be hard for demons to both reach that state AND then cultivate a child within their bodies if they do not have enough power to spare to keep their human form. This could be another reason demons are more inclined to have human spouses as they would be given their demon spouse the needed qi naturally rather than having to create so much qi themselves.

A rare example of this is like with Jade Face Princess, she is the daughter of another fox king who was 10,000 years old or so but we never see in the novel. It is hard to say that if she is his bio daughter (most likely) and that is how she inherited her wealth but that she could and would still end up so weak in battle. She shows that her true form is a fox, so it is unlikely she is half-human but also hard to say if he was a born demon as well. We so see an example of adoption in the same like as White-Face Fox was adopted by the White Deer Spirit as his direct daughter, despite them being two different pieces. This is just another thing to consider when it comes to how these demons create bond with one another, their godfather/godmother to their god-son/god-daughter being stronger than alliances.

How do female demons differ from male demons?

Females and male demons are pretty easy to differentiate in that the demon will CHOOSE how their physical form will look like. As a reminder demons are animals, plants, and objects that have gained cultivation and thus their physical forms are illusions. They are allowed to choose how the world sees them and thus once they gain a humanoid form (which takes a very long time) they can choose how to look and thus how they with the world to address them as. Green Snake is a good example of this as she was a male snake in her animal form and was able to choose to present as a woman so that she could stay close to White Snake when they cultivated into humans.

Or do you know articles or people who know more about it?

I can recommend a few books if you wish to read but I cannot say if there are articles about this subject.

A CHINESE BESTIARY Strange Creatures from the GUIDEWAYS THROUGH MOUNTAINS AND SEAS

Fantastic creatures of the mountains and seas : a Chinese classic

Chinese Mythology: An Introduction

Handbook of Chinese Mythology

I understand that Wukong was like on a political mission to talk to the demon kings and have a good relationship with them, right?

Wukong was less taking a 'political mission' and rather Demon Kings came to HIM. When Wukong showed off the power of the staff.

Wukong explored many areas in his time and found a lot of friends but that was for his own sake of having fun, rather than trying to make political connections. Rather Demon Kings understood that Wukong was far more powerful than any of them and all 72 made sure to come and pay respect to him to get on his good side else they would be killed like the Demon King of Havoc. This is why you see in some media Wukong be The King of the Demons, as in he isn't just a Demon King but THE King of all Yaoguai. Out of the 72 demon kings, 6 were able to impress him enough to be his sworn brothers. I personally feel that the demon kings were the ones to refer to Wukong rather than Wukong trying to make alliances himself.

I would like to know more about how their "society" (their politics?) works in JTTW and other legends and stories.

From what we can see it is to be expected that Yaoguai society works similarly to human society. Heaven is to be a reflection of human society with ranks, servants, and duties and Yaoguai appears to be the same. But Heaven is supposed to be the prime of example of a perfect society, and rather Yaoguai rather have the "might is right” methods. to show the flaws of society. Demons that are particularly powerful, such as demons with humanoid forms, are the ones in power. The stronger a demon is, the more powerful and influence they will have. Kings are not born, but rather made when a demon has cultivated enough and gained a large following, and thus they are able to claim a Cave and Mountain of their own and their subjects. From there demons are either terrorizing humans or even being able to form diplomaice relationships with humans. We see this with the Nine-Headed Lion Spirit trading with humans are a regular basis (until his grandsons stole the pilgrims' weapons and ruined their relationship with their neighboring kingdom). Powerful Demons turn into Kings and thus have subjects, so it is fair to think that when demons are on their own and interacting with humans so much they are more likely trying to cultivate to gain more power. Weaker demons are either under a Demon King or interacting with humans to eat them to gain enough power to be a Demon King perhaps.

I don’t see a lot of demons interacting with each other if they are not sworn, I would imagine that there is a lot of postering and a lot of double-edged sword dealings. Demons are always run by their own desires, similar to humans but to the extreme, they don’t consider consequences or express empathy more often than not (there are exceptions to this rule just this is the norm I have seen). Demons can form relations and close bonds but as we have seen with DBK and Wukong these relationships are not concrete, as when Wukong was no longer a warlord and was no longer in a position of power over DBK, DBK saw no reason to help Wukong in his plight. Nor do we see Wukong's other sworn brothers after he loses his warlord status. This can be assumed that these relationships are only as strong as long as individuals are useful, but if any of them lose power or status then the relationship will dissolve when it is no longer profitable to keep them. There can be goodwill and we have seen more genuine care between demons such as White Snake and Green Snake but that seems more of a familial relationship over a political alliance.

[dialittlesandbox]

Season 5

Episode 1: Collar the King Li Jing - Chapter 58 The Pagoda-bearing Heavenly King, is a prominent deity and the father of Nezha and a high-ranking figure in the celestial hierarchy.

Episode 1: Collar the King Pagoda of the Kings - Chapter 58 a powerful and magical pagoda that Li Jing wields. It symbolizes his authority and martial prowess and can shield its wielder and capture and imprison enemies.

Episode 1: Collar the King (I forgot them before, sorry ;-;) Court of the Underworld - Chapter 10 The underworld in Chinese Mythology (also known as Diyu) has multible levels and courts. Commonly shown to have 10 Courts, each ruled by a judge. Each of them is for different types of punishment for different sins. The judges are also known as the Yama Kings and are responsible for judging and punishing the souls of the dead based on their "earthly sins." The first king, Yanluo Wang, is often considered the chief judge and oversees the judgment of souls and the administration of punishments. In JttW the court picks up Wukongs Soul. The Monkey protest infront of the court, telling them they made a mistake. After checking the records for his name and finding it, Wukong crosses it out, adding to his pile of Immortality. (Wukong also crosses any of his monkies names he can find.)

Episode 8: The Cage (Allured to before in "Familiar Tales" S4 E1) Nine Headed Beast/Nine-Headed Lion/Nine-Headed Dragon - Chapter 62 - 63 A fearsome Monster that terrorizes villages and is defeated by the Pilgrims.

Episode 9: Sacrifice (also in a Flashback in "Show me the Monster" S4 E6) Nuwa - Not in JttW A primordial goddess in Chinese mythology, known for creating humanity and repairing the sky. She is revered for her role in molding the first humans from clay and mending the heavens by melted down five-colored stones to patch the holes in the sky, thus repairing the heavens and bringing order back to the world. This act of restoration was crucial in reestablishing harmony between heaven and earth.

Heya LMK Fandom!

I finally got my hands on all 5 Seasons of LMK and while watching S1, I started to wonder which characters/artifacts are from Journey to the West. Down the rabbit hole I go, starting a list that's all about that. For now I used a chapter summary as well as an Episodeguide, cause I haven't read the book yet and Overly Sarcastics Productions (YT channel) to start off and now a PDF of the translated version by Anthony C. Yu. (One of two full translations of Journey to the West) And while I go on and on, I think to myself, maybe somebody else would like to see that list as well, so I decided to post it here. Down below you find my sources and said list starting with the Pilot. I shall add more as I go on.

Scources: Episodelist on fandom.com Chapter Summaries of Journey to the West Overly Sarcastic Production Journey to the West PDFs of the Journey to the West 2012 Revised Edition by Anthony C. Yu

The following Template will be seen: Season, Episode: Name character/artifact - Chapter in Journey to the West Description in Journey to the West

Pilot: Monkie Kid: A Hero is Born Monkie Kings Staff - Chapter 3 Description: After defeating "The Monsterous King of Harvoc" that'S been stealing monkies from Flower Fruit Mountain. Afterwards, the Monkey King decides that they'll need an army to defend themselves and he himself a weapon. So he visits the Dragon Palace in the Eastern Ocean and ask to "borrow" a weapon from that Dragon King. After much searching, Sun Wukong settles for a " heavy (17550 lbs or 7960,546 kg) magic size-changing iron pillar"

Red Son - Chapter 40-42 Description: The Son of the Bull Demon King that's terrorising a mountain and the spirit population living there after spending years on training up his fire abilities. Now he can call upon the "true Fire of Samadhi" and was originally send there by DBK to guard the mountain. Monkey King fights him (after Red Son kidnaps Tripitaka), but with that fire on the demons side they call upon Guynyin to help out. Only then are they able to defeat Red Son and he is taken under Guynyin's care as a servant.

Princess Iron Fan's Fan - Chapter 59-61 Description: After arriving at a mountain that is on constant fire (Fault of Monkey as one of the coals that were used to cook out the immortality pills off him got shot down and lit said fire when he escaped the coltr, the the pilgrims learn from the locals that they'll need the magical palm-leaf fan from Princess Iron Fan to extinguish said fire. The fan can produce such powerfull winds, that any who stand in it's way will be blown over 84 miles (135,1849 km).

Princess Iron Fan/ Rakishasi - Chapter 59-61 Description: Wife of the Demon Bull King, the Princess was currently suffering under the absence of her husband and that her son is now a servant under Guynyin and she can't visit him. Those frustation she takes out on Monkey but can't defeat him but also refuses to give out her fan at first. At the end, she does give it up willingly, reflecting and coming to the conclusion that she wants a better life for herself. Monkey sees that she has "already worked her way up to a real human body*" and contiunes to better herself after.

Demon Bull King - Chapter 59-61 Description: Leaving his wife, Princess Iron Fan, to guard Princess Jade Countenance - daughter of a tenthousend year old fox spirit, who was very rich and died. The princess offered all that money as a dowry to the Demon Bull King and he accepted. After causing sooo much trouble the entire celestial army comes to help out, Bull Demon King surrounders and is transported off.

[addysfandomdump]

My Hopes for LEGO Monkie Kid Season 3 (and possibly the rest of the show)

In no particular hierarchy:

- Sun Wukong and Macaque's past

- Red Son returns

- MK gets some fucking therapy

- Macaque gets his musical, bonus if he gets redeemed/allies with MK's crew temporarily and it's a sea shanty between the cast

- Mei gets more screentime

- Sandy gets more screentime

- Freenoodles real

- Pigsy and Chang'e have a ping-pong match (yes this is because of Over the Moon)

- Dad Wukong content

- MK goes apeshit

- Traffic Light Trio real?? Please I just want them to be friends

- Trans Enby MK real

- Enby Bi Red Son real

- Trans Mei real

- More demons from JTTW making an appearance?? 👀 If the Yellow Wind Demon and/or Princess Jade Countenance show up I am going to lose my shit

- Spindrax finally makes an appearance and Mei has a crush on her

- True Fire of Samādhi

- Red Son joins the MK Crew

- MK bastardization arc when??? 👀

- We finally meet Wukong's lawyer

- Sandy and Pigsy's past

- More Dadsy

- Also Pigsy forcing these damn monkies to take care of themselves (MK, Wukong, maybe Macaque if he's there)

- More Jin and Yin

- Wukong finally interacts with the rest of the MK Crew

- MK backstory when???

- Sandy backstory

- Mo Tiger Demon real

[darkfalcon-z]

So you want to write a fic/draw fanart about Sun Wukong, but you don't know anything about macaques? I'll share some interesting facts with you I found in the internet (I'm not a primatologist/ethologist, so take it with a gain of salt) there is this cool youtube channel that is mostly about Rhesus Macaques, but you may get bored soon watching because those guys are mostly chilling, eating and grooming all day long and the don't do anything dramatic. Also be warned there are a lot of monkey channels that are essentially animal abuse. Stay away from those - if the monkey is a pet it's animal abuse, if a lot of accidents happen to the monkeys that's staged and it's abuse as well. I’m just writing down things you may want to play with in your fic or art.

Side note: this should be obvious, but if you want to write a fic with Wukong you actually need to do the research into Chinese culture and history.

Now back to macaques (it's mostly about rhesus or I'll specify otherwise):

- they have matriarchal society, girl children are preferred over the boys, because the boys would leave the natal group one day, usually when the dominant male decides that he doesn't want them around any more. If the boys grow up too big the dominant male may by too weak to kick them out on his own and he'll have to wait for the support from the females. Smarter and bolder boys may be kicked out earlier, because dad sees them as potential threat. Meek sons of low ranking females may stay longer because they are not a threat/not related to the dominant male.

- there are more females than males in the troop. The males that are the part of the troop usually outrank most females because they are bigger. Outsider males, who only drop by to visit or to mate have lower status, though. So you are in a cushy position if you secure yourself a place in a troop, but if you are a lone male not so much.

- girls inherit status of their moms, they are just below mom in hierarchy, but their place in ranking drops when their sisters are born - younger daughters have higher status.

- youngest daughter of the dominant female becomes next queen. To become the boss the male needs to kick out the previous top male and to gain approval of dominant  female. Only the top male in the group can mate with the queen and the pair is supposed to have babies every year. I’m not sure how Wukong would fit in a sexual politics on the group, given that he’s most likely ace. Figuring it out may be one of the plot lines in the story.

- lesser males defend the troop on behalf of the top male, who only fights if the things get really serious.

- top female is the leader for life, top male is replaceable.

- status of females in the group is relatively fixed but your status drops if you have multiple boys in the row, because no one is is going to support you when the boys leave. Having multiple daughters boosts your ranking because they'll have your back. Being in the good graces of resident males, particularly the dominant one won’t hurt you either. But you need to be careful, if you become too bold the high ranking females will put you in your place.

- higher ranking members take food before lower ranking ones, they’ll take your food away if you eat out of rank. Even from your cheek pouches.

- you generally chill with macaques of similar status.

- higher ranking members will discipline lower ones, but they are usually more tolerant towards the babies (except if a baby takes a desirable food out of rank).

- macaques sleep in trees. They also huddle together.

- rhesus don’t eat meat. If you left them meat they won’t touch it/will drop it as soon as they realise it’s meat. They only eat insets, mostly ones they’ve picked while grooming. Long tailed macaques eat meat and shellfish.

- When we are at that long tailed macaques can use stone tools to open shells. It’s awesome but also kind of a problem because long tail macaques have voracious apatites and they will eat as long as there’s food so they are in danger of bringing to population of shellfish to extinction and forgot their technological advancement as a result. In contrast rhesus only eat as long as they are hungry and they will leave even the most attractive food when they are satisfied.

- rhesus eat fruit, seeds, nuts, shoots, flowers (particularly nectar), occasionally leaves and they can eat human food like bread as long as that food doesn’t have meat in it. I’ve seen rhesus eat spoiled milk :/

- they also eat soil, they do it because sometimes plants they eat have toxins and soil helps with that. Also nutrients possibly.

- they have very clean fur. The spend a lot of time grooming (1996 adaptation got it right). You want to romance a potential partner, you groom, you spend time with your family, you groom, you sit alone, you groom yourself, you want to persuade other monkey let you babysit her kid you groom her and then you groom the kid when she finally lets you, you want to make up after a quarrel, you guessed it, you groom. You are a lone bachelor and you’ve met your old auntie, who used to babysit you, you groom. It is all purpose social interaction that also keeps lice and tick of your fur. Macaques don’t generally get flees because they sleep in trees, while flees hop on their hosts from the ground, but they’d rid of fleas any way with all that grooming.

- other multi purpose gesture is showing the rump. You do it to say you’re sorry, to ask for something (usually for other monkey to let you babysit) and when you are flirting. The other monkey make hop on your back to show domination, accept apology or reconciliate. It kind looks like a copulation from afar.

- lip smacking is for showing affection and signalling you want a hug.

- open mouth stare signifies aggression (I think 1986 Wukong does that, when he faces his enemies (?), but I haven’t seen that in other on screen performances).

- yawning with teeth exposed is also aggression/threat (without teeth it’s just yawning).

- barking sound is also a threat.

- showing teeth in a grin is stress/apology.

- they scratch themselves more when stressed (and it’s depicted in several JttW adaptations).

- those guys may steal your food, steal a bag if they think it may contain food and even steal your other possessions in order to exchange for food (or sometimes just to play).

- they know if they show up with a baby in their arms they are more likely to be fed by humans. But at the same time they don’t like humans near their babies.

- macaques get redder during mating period (that is winter), males with more and darker red marks are considered more attractive by females.

- baby season is in the summer.

- girls are usually more developed at birth and grow up faster.

- yearling girls are super interested in the new born babies, boys are usually less interested but they help out sometimes as well.

- nearly all females love babies. They may not want to give the baby back if they are babysitting.

- usually both moms and dads prefer daughters. But there are exceptions because those monkeys are individuals, some actually prefer little boys. There are also females, who don’t like babies that much and little girls who are not interested at all in their younger siblings.

- if a baby dies a mom or babysitter can carry it for days. Sometimes they even carry around miscarried foetuses. They will groom the dead baby as well. Apparently if you’ll try approaching mourning mom other troop members will attack you.

- rhesus males don’t practice infanticide, because the females only get in oestrus at fixed time of the year, long tailed macaques supposedly do to make the oestrus come faster.

- most macaques figure out their own reflections relatively quickly.

- they love how to swim, they are good swimmer and they like to high dive. But they can overestimate their abilities and it’s not rare for them to drown.

- Macaques are somewhere around 2 feet tall (generally shorter than a human toddler, standing up they’d probably reach to your mid thigh depend how tall you are) Sun Wukong is 4 feet tall, that’s as big as modern 7 year old, perhaps he could passed as pre teen in Tang period because people used to be shorter in the past and it took longer for kids to grow. Anyway he’s small for a human but huge for a macaque.

- now for sexual dimorphism (people with trans head-canons take notes, I’m not telling you want to do, but only what you can play with):

- males are bigger and with bulkier shoulders (Wukong is huge anyway, so this one may not be so important),

- males have longer (more prognostic), squarer muzzles and bigger fangs (all male primates have significantly bigger fangs than females save for humans), females have shorter and rounder faces, you can more or leas tell the sex of an adult from the face after you’ve watched them for a while.

- females tend to be redder, both on face on on the buttocks. Older females tend to be redder than younger ones. Males get redder on the face and balls during mating seasons. Males often have only red marks on the upper part of the face, some just look as if they are wearing red eyeliner. Meanwhile a lot of females have whole faces red. I suppose female also get redder during mating season, but it’s not that obvious.

- lactating females have sagging beast, they are visible but usually not particularly big. Females, who don’t lactate don’t heave breasts. They may still have long nipples (in contrast all males I’ve seen have small nipples).

- males have quite big testicles comparatively to their body size, the balls reach almost to their kneed during mating season (when the macaques is on all fours at least).

- like most mammals they have penis bone.

- mounting time is less than 8 seconds for rhesus but the mount multiple time during the same event. Male hops on the top of female and often supports himself by holding her shins in his feet. Female often reaches back grab him with one hand.

- bonnet macaques are known for homosexual behaviour (they are known as the bonobo of macaques).

- Macaques are supposed to have periods but also oestrus cycle?? apparently

- it seems like all rhesus with leucism are female (??) or at least the condition occurs much more often in females. Those monkeys have golden fur and transparent nails. Usually leucistic monkeys are low in group ranking. You may include this fact if you want to write an underdog story.

- usually rhesus fur is combination of light grey, light brown and orange. Head and shouldered tend to be greyer, lower back and legs tend to be more orange, forearms tend to be darker grey, while the belly is much lighter than the rest.

- the winter coat is longer an thicker.

- Rhesus macaques typically have dark nails. They have nails, not claws. In fact almost all monkeys and all Old World monkeys have nails. Hand looks very much like humans. The thumb is just a little shorter and the palm just a bit different shape but you’d be hard pressed to find any hand resembling that of a human even among other primates, you’d get cebids and maybe great apes and that’s it. Actually macaques have closer thumb to finger ration to humans than other great apes.

- macaques do not knuckle walk like apes, instead when they walk on their flat palms.

- the hand does not resemble cat paws at all. It is not padded like cats or dogs’ paws. It looks almost like human hand but with hair on the top.

- needless to say macaques are very dexterous. Their hands are optimised for object manipulation.

- they have longer feet with pointy heel and opposite big toe.

- it’s not rare for rhesus to have brown palms even though they have light pink faces.

- rhesus have relatively short  tails. Also no Old World Monkeys have prehensile tales (but you don’t have to draw, just have fun, heck I draw Wukong with long tail even though I think he’s supposed to be rhesus).

- the limbs are also relatively short with arms being shorter than legs.

- those guys are incredibly resilient and can survive losing a limb or two without human medical intervention as long as there are no predators in the area. They can also heal open broken bone.

- also while they discriminate against macaques with golden fur, the don’t seem to discriminate against monkeys with missing limbs or many other deformities.

- oh, yeah, about that, they care for injured macaques or at least if the injured one is their sibling.

- macaque bites aren’t very likely to pierce human skin (zoo keepers claim)

- but be warned you don’t want macaques saliva or other body fluids anywhere near your person because over 80% of their adult population (and about 25% of juveniles) carries monkey herpesvirus B. It hardly cause them any harm but mortality rate in infected humans is over 70% (at least that we know of, fortunately it does not usually spread to humans, there have been only about 40 cases on the record, all in the lab setting). Important note: this virus spreads sexually. Wukong may carry this virus without being aware.

- they have cheek pouches so collars or clothing that is tight around the neck is bad for them. If you put collar on a macaque they wouldn’t be able to eat properly because they usually put their food in the pouches and then gradually swallow.

[journeytothewestresearch]

I'm a Theravada Buddhist. I saw many people interpreting the story and meaning behind Black Myth Wukong, differently. But I hope the devs team didn't intend to insult Buddha Dhamma by recreating this new story and distort the meaning of Buddhahood or Enlightenment itself..

I don't know if they intended to insult Buddhism, but I can say that their presentation of Buddhism in the game is disrespectful.

@ryin-silverfish recently posted a wonderful essay on what's known as the "JTTW Conspiracy Theory," which is a method of interpreting the story by twisting details, making the heavenly hierarchy look evil. The game follows this method. I recommend that you read the essay:

I unknowingly ran into the JTTW Conspiracy Theory a couple of years ago. A Chinese article claimed that the Buddha lies in the novel. This is my rebuttal.

[journeytothewestresearch]

@sketching-shark I don't know if broader Chinese mythology mentions humans directly becoming yaoguai. But I do know that Journey to the West treats humans as the penultimate form that members of the lower three realms of rebirth aspire to achieve. Spirits and demons are capable of achieving this form in one of three ways:

Deceptive magical transformations (not a real achievement)

Spiritual practices

Rebirth

Two examples of the second category are the Black Wind Demon and Princess Iron Fan, who "achieve the way of humanity through spiritual cultivation" (xiucheng rendao, 修成人道).

For more information on the cosmic hierarchy of JTTW, see this paper:

While capable of performing deceitful or even murderous deeds, I don't think humans are capable of directly becoming yaoguai in their current life. They must first die and become a spirit, or they must be reborn into one of the aforementioned lower realms before they can become a yaoguai.

By the way, the White Bone Spirit is part of a family of ghouls. This is revealed in chapter 27 when she says: "For several years my relatives have been talking about a Tang Monk from the Land of the East going to fetch the Great Vehicle..." (幾年家人都講東土的唐和尚取大乘...) (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 2, p. 17).

Sources:

Campany, R. (1985). Demons, Gods, and Pilgrims: The Demonology of the Hsi-yu Chi. Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR), 7(1/2), 95-115. doi:10.2307/495195

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

Is it possible for a human to become a yaoguai?

You know, I'm not actually sure if it is or not! I know that there's quite a few stories about yaoguai disguising themselves as humans or striving to genuinely take on a human form, as well as stories about heavenly figures who become yaoguai as a form of punishment. Plus it seems that yaoguai can originate from anything from stones to animals to plants to human bones. But I've never actually encountered a tale about a human becoming a yaoguai in Chinese mythology or folklore...I did see a retelling of Journey to the West where the Lady Bone Demon used to be a human before she was sacrificed and her hatred and despair brought her back as a yaoguai, but that was a 21st century retelling. If anyone knows of any stories where a human becomes a yaoguai, please let me know!

[journeytothewestresearch]

I have had this doubt

I understand that in the book there is a lot of mention of gods and demons (or evil spirits I think), such as the bull demon king, scorpion demoness, white bone demon, the great yellow eyebrow king (I think that's his name and one of the few demons that really caused Sun Wukong a lot of trouble), among many others

But my question is... How do the different types of demons arise there? (Of course, except for the ones that are gods and immortals that were expelled/exiled from heaven, I understand that's one way, right?)

🤔

Yes, being expelled from heaven is one way to become a demon. This article explains how having a place within the cosmic hierarchy (i.e. a position in heaven) is what normally separates a god from a demon.

Most of the demons in JTTW are animals who became spirits through Daoist spiritual practices. Sun Wukong is a prime example of this.

Then you have the kind that were simply born into demonhood. The White Bone Spirit falls into this category. Chapter 27 explains:

In this mountain there was indeed a monster-spirit, who was disturbed by the Great Sage Sun's departure. Treading dark wind, she came through the clouds and found the elder sitting on the ground. "What luck! What luck!" she said, unable to contain her delight. "For several years my relatives have been talking about a Tang Monk from the Land of the East going to fetch the Great Vehicle (emphasis added). He is actually the incarnation of the Gold Cicada, and he has the original body that has gone through the process of self-cultivation during ten previous existences. If a man eats a piece of his flesh, his age will be immeasurably lengthened. So, this monk has at last arrived today!" (Wu & Yu, vol. 2, p. 17) 果然這山上有一個妖精，孫大聖去時，驚動那怪。他在雲端裡踏著陰風，看見長老坐在地下，就不勝歡喜道：「造化，造化。幾年家人都講東土的唐和尚取大乘，他本是金蟬子化身，十世修行的原體，有人吃他一塊肉，長壽長生。真個今日到了。」

Source:

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4) (Rev. ed.). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

[m00n-d34r3st]

I been thinking the same, because the collective trauma of FFM and possibly the rest of Aioli could play into it as well as putting it all behind them. To honest, she's the physical embodiment of all of that, hams invading and nearly destroying there home and their king having to literally transform into a monster to even ATTEMPT to defend them and still failing. I still thing it's much more, but It is still a big piece.

I also have a personal take, since who her and the twins other parent was never even mentioned, so it's up for interpretation. I already mentioned that she wasn't really planned, her other parent was most likely a humanoid man either being yaoguai or immortal and it not being too healthy and not ending well. As the idea that her immortal killing properties taking effect during gestation and making wukong deathly sick and after all that coming out with her appearance and size..... It's not right, but I wouldn't blame everyone in the room at the time wanting to just throw her out the window or thinking "this fucking baby is cursed." Plus, it would be fair for wukong to lost hims marbles for awhile since what was supposed to be one of the best days of his life is literally everyone your loved, protected, and knew for almost forever avoiding her like the plague or straight up convincing him get rid of her. Them watching her develop and grow as well as it even being uncanny even for a yaoguai baby, getting teeth way too early amd towering over her father at 10 or 12. Plus, the difference would be more jarring along side her siblings, when they came along.

Also on the note of her being the only known daughter of wukong in jttw literature despite how non-canon and being the most mistreated isn't surprising as of how they viewed daughters, especially ones who were considered unattractive at the time and even today. It makes more sense, why there would be spite or harsher standards placed on to her, if you look at macaques social hierarchy and structure. In nature, female macaques are the heads of their tropes, because, while males leave as soon as puberty to not only find a suitable new trope, but also work their way up, so come time their mature enough to mate they have the best chances, females stay within the trope they were born into a inherit positions from their female parent or relatives. So, basically she's not socially acceptable enough to gain her own allies in high places, or charming enough to win over the masses and definitely not pretty enough to catch the eyes of someone that would marry into her family and be the things she's lacking.

So basically she's dead weight on paper, especially since social ties are also very important to macaques, so her lacking them and many of their own discouraging others to have them with her would be damning, especially compared to her father. So, when MK or Chen Xiang comes around they see them as gaining something back from having to be stuck with her. And this also play into her relationship with her sisters and brothers, because the amount of envy she would feel, but also many putting pressure on her sisters, especially the one after her to pickup to the perfect princess yuebei can't be.

As for Jidu and Luohou, I think they are socialites at their finest, they know they positions as princes won't last long, so they are getting out of it what they can to better chances of a better social circle, when it's time to leave the nest. One accepted the reality of it and purposely is a bit more zealous than he should be because of the whole "what else is there for me?" Mindset and the other is being equally or more so overzealous in the name of achieving his dream or goal any means necessary. All I have for the second daughter is she's basically took to shouldering all the social expectations herself to the point of holding herself and even her siblings to unhealthy standard of perfection and is all about that prim and proper princess life. While, she loves the spotlight, there is always an element of her trying to offset the social distaste caused by yuebei as well as a bit resentment towards her after years of seeing wukong having to always go the extra mile for her as well as being known as the better version of your eldest sister is still being known as a version of your eldest sister and not yourself.

For Yuebei, sadly I can see her finally melting down after years of her being mistreated and left out; rightfully so as a preteen girl would, but we her size an natural abilities for magic, she would be seen as a threat or cause some damage. Wukong would be outnumbered and forced to send her away to a boarding school of sorts of yaoguai or demon children in general. I'm working on this story, but a sad yet valid thing about it is she would most likely get used to it or even prefer it, because yes the other would be cruel to her, but she rather it be kids her age and adults that she would only know for school or won't be there next year, than her own people that has been doing the same to her since the day she was born and in her mind, focusing on what actually makes her useful and not cause her dad as much stress.

It's all just...

I'm sorry, but I can't believe how everybody is sleeping in Yuebei, like she's prime real estate for so much angst and fluff. Like, she was literally born to one of the most feared, yet respected or even beloved demon king and god with many allies and resources that ensure your going to be a powerful person, only for there to just be something you were born with that makes even the most starch of demons get the ick and even have your subjects that are like your siblings in a way to not even be afraid to call you a hideous abomination.

Like, I know the journey to the south isn't considered canon to jttw and she only showed up for a bit, but there is so much that could be done with her. Like, how wukong having looks on him that got him the title handsome or pretty monkey king effected her and how she could be constantly compared to him or her siblings if she has any as well as her feeling on being a princess despite being seen as bottom of the barrel.

Also how wukong would feel as a parent, I know he's still prideful and would definitely be the "she's very gorgeous to me😤" type parents, but I can't keep he would still struggle especially post jttw and adding on his trauma could complicate things farther.

But yeah, even tho she's an obscure character in an obscure piece of media, but the moment I read about her own subjects insulting her WHILE VOLUNTEERING TO SQUARE UP IN THE NAME OF HER DAD'S HONOR, I was like "Yeah, my giant scrankly princess, I will square up in a Danny's parking lot for you babe." And you should too.

[jttwaudiodrama]

This is a very thorough explanation (do read it) but just to elaborate a little bit more since a similar question was also sent to us a while back.

First of all, if you are looking for validation for some original idea you have for your own work, just go ahead, not our business. We have no interest in gatekeeping something that's in the public domain. If you worry this may potentially be offensive to the Chinese audience, stop worrying. Chinese readers of JttW have done way more reimagining than you would have in your lifetime. Whether or not we like it on a personal level, this is not something that would offend us.

Second, going back to Production Notes Episode 8, the very real hierarchy between the other three disciples who were given religious names and the young dragon who wasn’t should not be overlooked.

Like we said many times before, dragons are treated as a separate species in JttW from humans. There are real limitations to what roles they can take up even in the world of the divine. When humans, or creatures in human-like form like Wu Kong, are accepted into Buddhism, they can become monks. But for non-human beings like the dragon prince, that option is simply not available. Which is why we said he “didn’t become a monk”. That certainly was not something Guan Yin promised he would be either. The initial idea was to turn him into a tool of transportation with no other apparent obligations attached.

Of course, in practice he is not so different from a monk (eats only vegetables, i.e. grass), but that doesn’t mean the title was ever granted to him. I have family who are casual Buddhists who still eat meat, and of course got married and have kids. Nobody would consider them “monks”. And to say they have “joined the religion” would also feel like an exaggeration. It’s kind of like that for the dragon.

As for 八部 Aṣṭasenā or Eight Legions, this very concept is reserved for non-human deities who serve as guards for Buddha. So when the young dragon prince eventually becomes 八部天龍 (heavenly dragon of the eight legions), he’s basically joining this group of non-human deities. But again, that’s a role awarded to him based on the fact that he completed the journey. And you bet his new obligations would still be very different from conventional monks/Bodhisattva.

And remember how we touched on the word “皈依 convert” in Production Notes Episode 7? This word is used very loosely in the story, so always take context into consideration. Not every appearance of the word 皈依 means someone is being converted to a religion. It sometimes just means “obey”, “submit” or “believe”.

Always remember JttW was created by the grassroot and went through centuries of evolution before being written down as a book. So a lot of the terms are not used in the precise/academic manner that we would have preferred to base any research on. If you see contradictions or inconsistencies in the story, don’t overthink, it’s just the natural part of being created by the collective.

Also, it’s just getting way ahead of ourselves if we dumped every piece of info about the dragon horse in Production Notes 8. So please understand that this part of our series aims to only lightly touch on elements relevant to the corresponding chapter. When the character shows up again, naturally we will elaborate more.

And if you want our earnest answer for the original question: Regardless of whether the young dragon was ever officially made a Buddhist (which strictly speaking, still feels like a very human terms for us but anyway), or whether this process can be undone (in practice, you can unbecome a monk to get married), in the context of JttW, having been through this journey of enlightenment and awarded a prestigious role by Buddha himself, the young dragon would no longer be interested in worldly matters like marriage or romance. The same goes with all other members on the team.

Is the White Dragon Horse Buddhist?

I was recently contacted by a reader on my main external blog. Part of their question asked:

I heard on the Fifth Monkey [@jttwaudiodrama] production notes for Part 8 that the White Dragon Horse wasn’t really converted to Buddhism and thus never “left his family” and obligations. Would this make him eligible for marriage...?

My answer:

There is some inconsistency in the White Dragon Horse’s story. I can’t recall him officially taking vows during the journey, but the Buddha states in chapter 100 that he had (at some point):

Then he [the Buddha] said to the white horse, “You were originally the prince of Dragon King Guangjin of the Western Ocean. Because you disobeyed your father’s command and committed the crime of unfiliality, you were to be executed. Fortunately you made submission to the Law and accepted our vows ... (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). 又叫那白馬：「汝本是西洋大海廣晉龍王之子，因汝違逆父命，犯了不孝之罪。幸得皈身皈法，皈我沙門 ...

He is then elevated in rank to become an Aṣṭasenā, a group of eight celestial beings said to be "in attendance when the Buddha speaks the Mahayana sutras" (Buswell & Lopez, 2014, p. 74). The Buddha continues:

... Because you carried the sage monk daily on your back during his journey to the West and because you also took the holy scriptures back to the East, you too have made merit. I hereby grant you promotion and appoint you one of the dragon[ horses] belonging to the Eight Classes of Supernatural Beings (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). ... 每日家虧你馱負聖僧來西，又虧你馱負聖經去東，亦有功者，加陞汝職正果，為八部天龍馬。」

After transforming back into a dragon, he takes his place atop a Huabiao pillar in paradise:

The elder, his three disciples, and the horse all kowtowed to thank the Buddha, who ordered some of the guardians to take the horse to the Dragon-Transforming Pool at the back of the Spirit Mountain. After being pushed into the pool, the horse stretched himself, and in a little while he shed his coat, horns began to grow on his head, golden scales appeared all over his body, and silver whiskers emerged on his cheeks. His whole body shrouded in auspicious air and his four paws wrapped in hallowed clouds, he soared out of the pool and circled inside the monastery gate, on top of one of the Pillars that Support Heaven (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 382). 長老四眾，俱各叩頭謝恩。馬亦謝恩訖。仍命揭諦引了馬，下靈山後崖化龍池邊，將馬推入池中。須臾間，那馬打個展身，即退了毛皮，換了頭角，渾身上長起金鱗，腮頷下生出銀鬚，一身瑞氣，四爪祥雲，飛出化龍池，盤繞在山門裡擎天華表柱上。

A huabiao pillar in Xinghai Square, Dalian City, Liaoning Province, China. Via Wikipedia.

A detail of the huabiao dragon finial. Via Wikipedia.

And lastly, JTTW refers to him as a bodhisattva:

I submit to the Bodhisattva of Vast Strength, the Heavenly Dragon of Eight Divisions of Supernatural Beings (Wu & Yu, 2012, vol. 4, p. 385). 南無八部天龍廣力菩薩。

So given this info, I don’t think he would be involved in a relationship.

Sources:

Buswell, R. E. , & Lopez, D. S. (2014). The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism. Princeton University Press.

Wu, C., & Yu, A. C. (2012). The Journey to the West (Vols. 1-4) (Rev. ed.). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press.

[ryin-silverfish]

My response to this gets too long, so I decide to put it in a reblog.

First: SWK wasn't exactly against them "even before he got power". In the original novel, he is pretty giddy when the Gold Star of Venus arrived with an invitation to the Celestial Realm. He only started the first Havoc after he found out that his position, the Pimawen, is the lowest in the hierarchy: basically, he felt personally slighted and insulted.

Part of it is, indeed, motivated by grievances that the JE didn't acknowledge his prowess and use him wisely. But it's still not the same as the "rebellion against an unjust feudal order on behalf of the oppressed" narrative both Havocs were often interpreted as in the 50s/60s.

To paraphrase Lin Gen's 西游记漫话 again: "Did the Havoc start because the utopian FFM had become barren and downtrodden thanks to the Celestial Realm? Because the Celestial Realm had been taxing the monkeys and subjecting them to conscripted labors or similar oppressive laws? No, you can't find evidences for either arguments prior to the first and second Havoc."

"It paints a vivid picture of SWK's character and motivation, but none of it is close to the common motivations of a historical peasant rebellion."

(Also: though the Celestial Realm had dished out a lot of disproportionate punishments to their own officials and mortals alike, in the novel, they do not "enslave people".)

Second…well, second is why this response is so long.

The Celestial Realm, a.k.a. the bureaucratic Daoist Heaven, is certainly one of the major targets of JTTW's satire, from very harsh laws to mismanagement of its officials.

JTTW also mocks Daoist priests more often than Buddhist monks, even though, unlike people's common impression that JTTW is basically Buddhist propaganda, it does poke fun at Buddhist clergy and deities too.

However, however: JTTW's satire is a lot more gentle than modern audiences think it is.

"Satire can co-exist with genuine faith and religious messages" is something mentioned over and over in my other posts, so I'll just put it here and go back to what people tend to think JTTW's satire is: a scathing war declaration against the corruption of the establishments and the falsehood that is traditional religions, with the ideal goal being said hierarchy's destruction, and the tragedy being SWK's failure to fulfill that goal.

It's a very modern interpretation, and also one that obscures the original novel's most important themes: the "cultivation of the heart" and exploration of selfhood. Campany's paper really puts it best:

To summarize and analyze: both Havoc Era SWK and the demons encountered during the journey represent a pitfall in self-cultivation, in which one starts to believe the self is the universe, not beholden to any higher authority or orders.

At the same time, the book does not advocate for the complete subordination and elimination of the self either: enlightenment is where you are both in harmony with the cosmological orders AND free, a continuous process instead of a fixed state.

Through that lens, the flaws of the "Celestial Realm a/o Western Heaven as Oppressive Tyranny" narrative become clear: they believe that 1) the destructive freedom + unrestrained expansion of selfhood of the Havoc is seen as a good thing in the novel, and 2) submission to something higher than the self and acknowledging one's limitations can only mean the complete elimination of one's free will, and forced subjugation by an oppressive authority.

And, well…the destructive freedom the narrative embodied and promoted at the time was neither real freedom, nor without its own horrid consequences.

Back to the question of the "establishment": like almost every historical regime, imperial China is not a society I, or any modern people, will want to live under. Like any human institutions, the courtly bureaucracy and the Daoist + Buddhist clergy could be, and were often, self-serving and corrupt.

But the caricature of "Feudal Order" offers little insight into the "Hows" and "Whys".

The history of the Three Teachings is a complicated web of negotiation, adaptation, conflicts, syncretism, and co-existence, interlaced with political, economic, and cultural concerns.

Daoist and Buddhist establishments competed for the state's favors and were beholden to its regulations; they were almost never independent, powerful political factions of their own, yet they weren't obedient parrots of the imperial court either.

And the line between "institutional" and folk religions, between a tool of state control in a religious trenchcoat and an embodiment of local autonomy and agency, was far from a clear one.

A Buddhist temple could be part of the imperial legitimacy-making process through royal patronage and donations; it could also be an economic entity entrusted with the management of gentry land and loan-making, a service provider that fulfilled important roles in everyday funerary rituals, and a ground for folk entertainment and performance arts.

Because traditional religions were so closely integrated with life and society and "secular" concerns, they were also subjected to all the failings and conflicting interests on both local and state level.

Here's the thing: JCT-style takes reduce the complex webs of causes and effects into a binary opposition. Whether by portraying the religious establishments as the true powers, the conspirators working behind the stage, or opium-of-the-mass salesmen working on behalf of the Feudal Order, they are, once again, seeing "people believing in this stuff" as the real problem.

More generally speaking, demonizing any historical society/institutions tend to make us think that 1) these things only happen in the past, where people are backwards and stupid, and 2) they are only bad because everyone involved are uniformly evil and corrupt and believe in false/evil principles.

(Same for romanticizing the past, but that's less relevant to the topic at hand.)

It's a mindset that denys historical people their voices and agencies, while also stopping us from questioning our own fallibility and assumptions about ourselves and the world we live in.

More specifically, the binary divide of Oppressor vs. Oppressed, Establishment vs. The People, also ignored the commoners' own autonomy, their ability to be complicit as well as resist, to manipulate and negotiate.

To go back to the original quote:

And for most of chinese history the establishment has been shown in positive light while acting in pretty evil ways, so to have a cynical view of them is natural no?

It's cynical, sure, but a very modern cynicism that disencourages any attempts to dig into the historical context and themes of the original novel. And that's why I dislike it.

I'm a Theravada Buddhist. I saw many people interpreting the story and meaning behind Black Myth Wukong, differently. But I hope the devs team didn't intend to insult Buddha Dhamma by recreating this new story and distort the meaning of Buddhahood or Enlightenment itself..

I don't know if they intended to insult Buddhism, but I can say that their presentation of Buddhism in the game is disrespectful.

@ryin-silverfish recently posted a wonderful essay on what's known as the "JTTW Conspiracy Theory," which is a method of interpreting the story by twisting details, making the heavenly hierarchy look evil. The game follows this method. I recommend that you read the essay:

I unknowingly ran into the JTTW Conspiracy Theory a couple of years ago. A Chinese article claimed that the Buddha lies in the novel. This is my rebuttal.