#investiture of the gods

[ryin-silverfish]

So You Want to Read More about Chinese Mythos: a rough list of primary sources

"How/Where can I learn more about Chinese mythology?" is a question I saw a lot on other sites, back when I was venturing outside of Shenmo novel booksphere and into IRL folk religions + general mythos, but had rarely found satisfying answers.

As such, this is my attempt at writing something past me will find useful.

(Built into it is the assumption that you can read Chinese, which I only realized after writing the post. I try to amend for it by adding links to existing translations, as well as links to digitalized Chinese versions when there doesn't seem to be one.)

The thing about all mythologies and legends is that they are 1) complicated, and 2) are products of their times. As such, it is very important to specify the "when" and "wheres" and "what are you looking for" when answering a question as broad as this.

-Do you want one or more "books with an overarching story"?

In that case, Journey to the West and Investiture of the Gods (Fengshen Yanyi) serve as good starting points, made more accessible for general readers by the fact that they both had English translations——Anthony C. Yu's JTTW translation is very good, Gu Zhizhong's FSYY one, not so much.

Crucially, they are both Ming vernacular novels. Though they are fictional works that are not on the same level of "seriousness" as actual religious scriptures, these books still took inspiration from the popular religion of their times, at a point where the blending of the Three Teachings (Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism) had become truly mainstream.

And for FSYY specifically, the book had a huge influence on subsequent popular worship because of its "pantheon-building" aspect, to the point of some Daoists actually putting characters from the novel into their temples.

(Vernacular novels + operas being a medium for the spread of popular worship and popular fictional characters eventually being worshipped IRL is a thing in Ming-Qing China. Meir Shahar has a paper that goes into detail about the relationship between the two.)

After that, if you want to read other Shenmo novels, works that are much less well-written but may be more reflective of Ming folk religions at the time, check out Journey to the North/South/East (named as such bc of what basically amounted to a Ming print house marketing strategy) too.

-Do you want to know about the priestly Daoist side of things, the "how the deities are organized and worshipped in a somewhat more formal setting" vs "how the stories are told"?

Though I won't recommend diving straight into the entire Daozang or Yunji Qiqian or some other books compiled in the Daoist text collections, I can think of a few "list of gods/immortals" type works, like Liexian Zhuan and Zhenling Weiye Tu.

Also, though it is much closer to the folk religion side than the organized Daoist side, the Yuan-Ming era Grand Compendium of the Three Religions' Deities, aka Sanjiao Soushen Daquan, is invaluable in understanding the origins and evolutions of certain popular deities.

(A quirk of historical Daoist scriptures is that they often come up with giant lists of gods that have never appeared in other prior texts, or enjoy any actual worship in temples.)

(The "organized/folk" divide is itself a dubious one, seeing how both state religion and "priestly" Daoism had channels to incorporate popular deities and practices into their systems. But if you are just looking at written materials, I feel like there is still a noticeable difference.)

Lastly, if you want to know more about Daoist immortal-hood and how to attain it: Ge Hong's Baopuzi (N & S. dynasty) and Zhonglv Chuandao Ji (late Tang/Five Dynasties) are both texts about external and internal alchemy with English translations.

-Do you want something older, more ancient, from Warring States and Qin-Han Era China?

Classics of Mountains and Seas, aka Shanhai Jing, is the way to go. It also reads like a bestiary-slash-fantastical cookbook, full of strange beasts, plants, kingdoms of unusual humanoids, and the occasional half-man, half-beast gods.

A later work, the Han-dynasty Huai Nan Zi, is an even denser read, being a collection of essays, but it's also where a lot of ancient legends like "Nvwa patches the sky" and "Chang'e steals the elixir of immortality" can be first found in bits and pieces.

Shenyi Jing might or might not be a Northern-Southern dynasties work masquerading as a Han one. It was written in a style that emulated the Classics of Mountains and Seas, and had some neat fantastic beasts and additional descriptions of gods/beasts mentioned in the previous 2 works.

-Do you have too much time on your hands, a willingness to get through lot of classical Chinese, and an obsession over yaoguais and ghosts?

Then it's time to flip open the encyclopedic folklore compendiums——Soushen Ji (N/S dynasty), You Yang Za Zu (Tang), Taiping Guangji (early Song), Yijian Zhi (Southern Song)...

Okay, to be honest, you probably can't read all of them from start to finish. I can't either. These aren't purely folklore compendiums, but giant encyclopedias collecting matters ranging from history and biography to medicine and geography, with specific sections on yaoguais, ghosts and "strange things that happened to someone".

As such, I recommend you only check the relevant sections and use the Full Text Search function well.

Pu Songling's Strange Tales from a Chinese Studios, aka Liaozhai Zhiyi, is in a similar vein, but a lot more entertaining and readable. Together with Yuewei Caotang Biji and Zi Buyu, they formed the "Big Three" of Qing dynasty folktale compendiums, all of which featured a lot of stories about fox spirits and ghosts.

Lastly...

The Yuan-Ming Zajus (a sort of folk opera) get an honorable mention. Apart from JTTW Zaju, an early, pre-novel version of the story that has very different characterization of SWK, there are also a few plays centered around Erlang (specifically, Zhao Erlang) and Nezha, such as "Erlang Drunkenly Shot the Demon-locking Mirror". Sadly, none of these had an English translation.

Because of the fragmented nature of Chinese mythos, you can always find some tidbits scattered inside history books like Zuo Zhuan or poetry collections like Qu Yuan's Chuci. Since they aren't really about mythology overall and are too numerous to cite, I do not include them in this post, but if you wanna go down even deeper in this already gigantic rabbit hole, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

[monkeyzilla]

Shithead number 1 and shithead number 2

[lyon-77]

Erlang Shen—A Playful Free Spirit Pt. 2

If you think Erlang Shen is just a stoic, no-nonsense warrior god, you're definitely missing out. One of the most fascinating quirks about him in Chinese mythology is his adaptability and love for transformation, especially into a woman, to mess with people. He fully commits to those roles, playing with assumptions about gender and appearance, letting others trip over their own indoctrinated misconceptions.

The most well-known example is from The Investiture of the Gods. Erlang is tasked with protecting a prince from an assassination. Instead of just standing guard, he turns a melon into the prince and transforms himself into a beautiful concubine. The assassin, thinking he's succeeded after beheading the “prince,” quickly turns his attention to the “concubine” who's begging for mercy. Caught up in lust, the assassin lets his guard down, and that's when Erlang strikes, back into his true form with the assassin dangling under his arm, still dazed and confused.

This is by no means the only account of Erlang's gender-bending transformations. In JTTW, he and Sun Wukong engage in an iconic shape-shifting duel, each transformation designed to one-up the other. When Wukong turns into a creature, Erlang counters by transforming into its natural predator. In the folk version (similar style to the headless monk song in Black Myth: Wukong) of Havoc in Heaven, Erlang ups the ante by transforming into a young widow and even delivers a four-minute soliloquy mourning her lost husband, unfortunate miscarriage, and harsh in-laws. Wukong is unfazed and transforms into the flirtatious brother-in-law, teasing the young widow and grabbing her foot (a scandalous act for that time). Startled, Erlang drops the act and chides Wukong for his lewdness. It seems less like a serious battle but more like a courting game playful test of boundaries, each trying to throw the other off balance.

Erlang also plays with gender expectations and power dynamics outside of battles. In a 12th-century collection of strange tales (《夷坚志》), a strong laborer named Cai Qi stumbles across a handsome young man by a bridge late at night. A bit tipsy and opportunistic, Cai Qi grips the young man, intending to take advantage of him. The young man is actually Erlang Shen on a casual trip in the mortal world. Instead of confronting Cai Qi directly, which would’ve been very easy for a god, Erlang plays along, pretending to be overpowered and offering a silver wine vessel as a bribe to plea himself out of the harassment. Cai Qi, thrilled with the windfall, takes the silver home, only to discover the next day that the public storehouse is missing silver. He realizes too late that Erlang has his presumptuousness and greed lead him into trouble.

This playful trickery makes its way into modern retellings as well. In the 2003 animated series The Legend of Nezha, Erlang Shen pulls another gender-bending transformation during a playful match with Nezha. After stealing Nezha’s weapon, the Red Armillary Sash (混天绫), Erlang transforms into a woman crying by the river, conspicuously draped in the sash and calling for help from Nezha. Seeing through Erlang's shenanigan, Nezha demands his weapon back. Erlang feigns innocence and tells Nezha to go take her clothes himself, taunting, “What kind of hero robs a woman’s clothes in broad daylight?” Flustered, Nezha concedes the win and asks Erlang to transform into anything else. Erlang laughs, tosses back the sash, and calls for another rematch.

While quite a few gods and yaoguais in Chinese mythology use transformation as a disguise, Erlang Shen takes it further by leaning into the roles spontaneously to confuse, distract, and tease, playing with both gender and power dynamics. His transformations aren't just about hiding or escaping—they're about flipping the script and catching others off guard. As the god who tames the water, true to form, Erlang is adaptive, pragmatic, and fluid.

“Naturally fond of roaming free, with transformations that follow no fixed pattern.” —Indeed.

[journeytothewestresearch]

How to Kill Sun Wukong

Have you ever wondered what it would take to kill Sun Wukong? My new article describes a ritual borrowed from Investiture of the Gods (Fengshen yanyi, 封神演義, c. 1620) that would certainly kill our hero. It involves a secret, spiritual assault from a distance. That way, the villain doesn't have to worry about getting smashed into hamburger or ripped to shreds by an angry monkey immortal.

The ritual steals an immortal's spirit, tethers it to a straw effigy, and then kills the target by shooting the effigy in the eyes and heart with arrows.

[quitealotofsodapop]

Celestial Water Monkeys

Was discussing in the notes of this post with @silverlycanthropelover about the possibility of Celestial/Stone Monkeys surviving the Great Flood by adapting to the sea.

One of the jokes is that "Sea Monkeys" (the frozen brine shrimp toy), are actually a misunderstanding of sea dragon records talking about the little mer-monkeys that inhabited their seas.

Basically

Ao Guang: "What are those things hiding in your mane?" Ao Shun, surrounded by tiny mermaid-like monkeys: "I dunno man, they just showed up one day, and they won't stop picking through my fur." Ao Guang: "Why haven't you scared them off?" Ao Shun: "Honestly? They are pretty adorable. They clean my body of parasites, and comfort me when I'm feeling unwell." Sea Monkeys: (*happy chirping + porpoise-like squeaks!*) Ao Guang: "They do seem very useful... How do I go about hiring them?" Ao Shun: "I believe you cannot choose them brother, they choose you." (*cut to hundreds of years later when Ao Guang is lying at the bottom of the East Sea, despaired at the loss of his youngest pup Ao Bing*) Sea Monkeys: "Chirrp?" Ao Guang: (*looks up to see a swarm of brightly-coloured mer-monkeys, all swimming around his gigantic body as they pick off the barnacles and parasites that settled in his depression.*) Leading Sea Monkey, petting the king dragon's face with sympathy in their eyes: "Chirrrrp." Ao Guang: (*smiles for the first time in weeks*) :')

Like pilot fish to a great white, the smaller creatures stick to dragons in a symbiotic relationship. The royal dragons are very protective of their monkeys. Ao Guang refuses to acknowledge the irony of a Stone Monkey being one of his greatest annoyances, whilst tending to his beloved servants.

Wukong has no idea that these little spiritual monkeys exist! To think that some Stone/Spiritual Monkeys survived the Great Flood by changing their whole biology, or existed even beforehand, is an amazing discovery!

The Water Monkeys are a lot smaller than Wukong or Macaque, being roughly the size of tamarins. They don't speak "human" languages very well, their vocal cords are more attuned to the calls of dragons and other sea life. They can still chirp and chatter as monkeys do, allowing for some delightful conversation between the Stone Monkey King (they do not recognise Sun Wukong as their king) and the school of excited fairy-like monkeys.

[passions-and-pupils]

I love the idea of a Nezha retelling instead of being told like a myth it’s told like fiction, putting more focus on how it would actually feel to be in these situations.

I want to see Li Jing come to terms with the fact that his youngest son, his baby boy, ripped out the spine of a dragon prince with his bare hands. I want to see the horror on his face as he stands face to face with a dragon king and realizes that Nezha has doomed them all.

I want to see Nezha throw a tantrum (like any child his age would) screaming that it wasn’t fair, that he shouldn’t be punished for defending himself.

I want to see Lady Yin make a temple for her baby and I want to see her cry as her husband burns it to the ground

I want to see Nezha as both a hero and a monster, reconstructed as a zombie made of lotus and spite, riding on wheels of fire towards the father who now refused to call him son, who let him sacrifice himself when he was far to young to understand the weight of his actions. Who shunned him when all he needed was a father to tell him what to do and how to fix it.

I want to see Nezha’s story as not a tale of Confucianism or heroics, but as a cruel reminder of what happens when we give children the power and responsibilities of adults.

Or maybe I should write it myself

[mythologyfolklore]

Buddha of Sandalwood Merit: Ah, yes. Here we have a beautiful couple... Nézhā: I really care about your feelings! Áo Bĭng: I really care about YOUR feelings! Buddha of Sandalwood Merit, turning his head: ... and then there's the disaster couple... Buddha Victorious in Strife: YOU NEED TO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO ME INSTEAD OF BEING AT THE HOSPITAL! Èrláng Shén: I WOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND SO MUCH TIME AT THE HOSPITAL, IF YOU STOPPED INSISTING ON FIGHTING EVERYONE WHO COMES WITHIN A FIVE FOOT RADIUS OF YOU!

[digitalagepulao]

Prodigal son terror

Li Jing in a fury grabbed his halberd, leapt on his horse and galloped out of the headquarters. He was astonished to see Nezha with his Wind-Fire Wheels and Fire-Tipped Spear. He swore loudly, "You damned beast! You caused us endless suffering before your death, and now that you've been reborn, you're troubling us again!"

"Li Jing! I've returned my flesh and bones to you, and there's no longer any relation between us. Why did you smash my golden idol with your whip and burn down my temple? Today I must take my revenge!"

since I'm on a Nezha streak, might as well do my design for him on the Expedition AU! given that i've chosen to give characters a closer likeness to their region, it's only fitting i do the same with import deities like Guanyin, Subodhi and Nezha.

he's a complicated figure to place in the timeline because he gained popularity as a deity much after, only really arriving in China by the time the Journey would have been set. FSYY was written closer to when JTTW was written down, and he was retroactively inserted on the Zhou Dynasty period.

so deciding what to even do with him is dicey. but then i said fuck it, mythological rules apply here, he was around for the events of FSYY, and it and JTTW are set in the same universe. and for the sake of having some fun, i decided to get funky with his concept.

Nezha had the likeness of his family when he was alive, as described in FSYY, but once he was reborn with a lotus body he gained Indian traits instead. this is to be a nod to his status as an import deity and his origin as Nalakubara, and as the centuries roll by he may present himself to mortals closer to the locals' appearance wise.

as for his looks, i drew inspiration from multiple sources. read more for my rambles <3

his armor is closer to reconstructions of Zhou dynasty-period armor, skipping over extra parts simply because his lotus body is so indestructible, there's no need for a full set;

there are two red Chinese knots with jade beads dangling from the armor ties. they are said to ward off evil spirits, which felt like a good fit for a guy known to banish demons. i picked a six-petal flower pattern, which represents reunion, unity and a bright future;

i included lotus petals and leaves on his outfit as they are common in Beijing Opera outfits for him, and his makeup is a call to it as well;

The pink from the cheeks and eyeshadow seeps into his ear shell, as to convey the way sometimes, you get so angry even your ears blush;

Another thing i referenced from Opera is the two red ribbons on his sidelocks, though I changed them to two bulbs of lotus roots;

Four petals drawn close to his urna as both to make it look like a lotus but also form five petals, which is an auspicious number;

His hair crown is a fancy princely [knot] with a lotus motif and a pearl in the center, as he was the Pearl Spirit before becoming Nezha;

I was going to go with elf-like ears but I thought I could do better, so I went for stretched earlobes instead. you can't see it that well but hopefully the very large golden earrings imply it well enough xvx;

His cheek dimples are common sight on religious images of him and it was a cute touch imo;

Younger Nezha wears a golden robe because of his title as General of the Central Altar in Daoist belief, and the center direction is connected to yellow or gold, and yellow robes are usually meant for emperors and their sons, which is a minor nod to his self-assureness and boldness;

The Cosmic Ring has spiralling grooves on it both to catch blades on it for defense but also as a callback to Opera props;

On his waist is the embroidered ball weapon he was attributed with in earlier myths, he was also meant to have the leopard skin bag Taiyi Zhenren gave him, bjt it was going to be obscured by the text so i omitted it;

A few depictions of him gave him a halo of fire, which was real cool so i added it as well.

[steamedlotusroot]

according to fsyy, li jing’s pagoda was originally given to him to use in self-defense from a patricidal nezha, and chinese netizens like to joke that he keeps it around because he knows it’ll be over for him once nezha notices it’s missing 💀

in the lady earth flow arc of jttw, when nezha uses his sword to stop li jing from attacking sun wukong, li jing PALES in fear because he thought nezha was going to betray him and he didn’t have his pagoda around to protect himself

of course nezha isn’t trying to kill him; he was stopping li jing from killing swk (because swk was gonna take him to court LMAO). and today i saw some c-netizen comments on XHS and i wanna summarize them because oh man 😭 :

nezha has moved on from their feud, but li jing will be haunted forever. the pagoda isn’t just for his protection; it’s to remind him of the consequences of his actions because he can never put it down, not unless he wants to risk getting attacked again. he’ll be forced to carry that pagoda for the rest of his life

[treesah]

So blessed to live in an era where a video game has globalized the thirst for Erlang Shen

[deadshadowcreature]

First altar 🕯

[ryin-silverfish]

One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Christianity where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

[monkeyzilla]

I really like Ne Zha 2019

Also I wanna see this specific version of him meet monkey king reborn’s wukong ☝️they remind me of each other so much. Also it’s really silly that Nezha is technically wukong’s senior by like idk 600 years even though he’s like a skibidi toilet iPad kid

[lyon-77]

It's great to see Erlang Shen (二郎神) gaining more recognition in recent years, both with the current generation and globally. His portrayal in Black Myth: Wukong is particularly multilayered and fascinating. However, I've noticed some misunderstandings surrounding his character and development in Chinese lore and literature. As someone deeply interested in folk traditions and history, I’d love to explore this complex folk god with you all. If anyone's interested, feel free to share your thoughts, questions, or ideas!

As an intro, let me begin with Erlang Shen's divine roles in Chinese folk religion. TL;DR: His primary roles are as the god of water management, hunting, and protection. At different points in history, he also took on derivative roles as a patron of various artistic and leisure activities (music, drama, cuju [an ancient ball game], alcohol, gambling, etc.) and as a protector of the vulnerable including children, street vendors, and prostitutes. Yeah, pretty wild and non-discriminative

Many people seem to interpret Erlang Shen as a god of order and justice, constrained by the celestial court. While I understand the juxtaposition of this interpretation with Wukong, it does not really align with the lore tradition. Erlang Shen and Sun Wukong were indeed linked before the formulation of Journey to the West (JTTW)—most likely because Erlang Shen was originally the god of hunting. You can still see this in the fact that he's always accompanied by a hound. Traditionally, he also had an eagle (not commonly seen now) and carried a bow (which he used in his first match with Wukong in JTTW).

Some also mistake Erlang Shen as the Chinese God of War, but he is very much not. Erlang Shen is a protector god, originally of the multiethnic Sichuan (Shu) region of China. This region was independent of any central government for over half a century following the fall of the Tang Dynasty in the 10the century, and during the early 11th century, local people rebelled under Erlang Shen's name against the newly established Song Dynasty intermittently for over three decades. If we view the celestial court as a mirror of the mortal one, Erlang Shen essentially led multiple rebellions—this isn't lore but historical fact. To appease the people of the Shu region, the Song central government officially recognized Erlang Shen on the national level. Erlang Shen then gradually became the protector of Greater China and was prayed to during times of war, especially in the face of foreign invasions during Song Dynasty. His official recognition and tributes carried through all subsequent Chinese dynasties regardless of the ruling ethnic group—be it the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty, Han Ming Dynasty, or Manchurian Qing Dynasty.

In terms of lore, Erlang Shen wasn't linked to the Jade Emperor until around the time of JTTW. In The Investiture of the Gods, formulated around the same time as JTTW, Erlang Shen was the source of a main character but no connection to the Jade Emperor was ever mentioned. Again, this dubiety likely reflected the historical process of integrating Erlang Shen into the official pantheon, as he was simply too powerful and influential to ignore. In both traditional lore and in JTTW, Erlang Shen commands his own military (草头神，roughly translated to grassroot gods), is supported by loyal generals (the Mei Mount brothers), and resides in the Shu region, where his lore originated, rather than in the celestial realm. He maintains a cooperative relationship with the celestial court but enjoys great autonomy. Most importantly, Erlang Shen remains close to the mortal world and to the people he protects, which is why he lives on through millennia in the hearts of so many as a beloved folk god and takes on derivative protective roles in response to people's needs and trust.

TBC. Let me know if you find this interesting 👀

[margueritedaisies]

I just love drawing families of fictional characters, its interesting to think of how each sibling would look. I try to make them different from one another but at the same time maintain familial similarities.

Jinzha resembles their mom, Muzha their dad, and Nezha's a good mix of both.

Also get ready with some sibling dynamic rant, mostly relation HCs by me.

Enough with the parent child dynamic

I want sibling dynamic. Where these three come to terms on what happened between them. Specifically Muzha and Nezha's interaction is the one I want to see.

Tbh those two's fates in the myth reminded me of Hyakkimaru and Tahomaru in Dororo.

Like Nezha and Muzha had so much potential to gain solidarity with each other. Because Jinzha could never relate to them as the ignored or unwanted child. Muzha has that middle child stuggle fr.

Muzha is the one so eager to gain their fathers favor trying to meet Jinzha's level . Nezha wants nothing from his father so he makes himself worse.

Muzha's frustration with Nezha is that Nezha is rebellious, disrespectful of their dad

While Nezha's frustration to Muzha is that Muzha is so blinded and always struggling to achieve something so futile. Deep down he hates how Muzha is suffering this way but he wouldnt speak of it. This is why they always at odds.

They should make a movie focusin the Li brothers fr

Other than overusing the actual myths.

Fuck the ending from the original myth, they didnt even consider how the children felt from all the abuse. Not even mention of Muzha's death.

Enough Ao Bing, what about Muzha???

And the moral lesson is just about "respecting elders"?? The story still had so much to wrap up. How can you call this a family if there is some sort of hierarchal system. A family requires empathy to maintain that connection.

Tbh its kinda realistic

Families and siblings can still inflict trauma from each other .And a story based on reconcilation is a good way for this to be about family counselling.

I wanna see the "what ifs". It could be each brothers own story of self healing from the trauma caused on each other.

Maybe Im getting my hopes up too much, but it could be a development for them to forgive, start anew and an opportunity to connect and catch up on what they missed on each other.

Edit:

As for Jinzha he also has his own struggles as the eldest. Keeping up the station as the golden favored and perfect son. But its Asian family dynamics, which means hes in a lot of pressure. But he is mentally and emotionally strong. The brothers always busy on his studies ,future responsibilities and training to be able to spend time together. Their timetables seemed to be planned out to always not meet. Jinzha especially had less freetime. And if he ever came across any of his brothers, it was only one of them never both.

He doesnt mind being a buffer for the other two feuding but it does stress him out that it will never change. But he'll make sure to give time and attention to both of them as much as he can.

Other than keeping up his fathers expectations he also doesnt want to fail as a big brother to them🥺😭

Muzha and Nezha can see his efforts so they do not dare hold anything against him. Muzha still keeps his competitive attitude when Jinzha's around but accepts any offered kindness from Jinzha. While Nezha enjoys his company when he gets the chance.

Also because I tend to hold on to this little bit of bonding😭🥺🥺Jinzha trying to be the best big bro

Thinking of the contrast in the future where Jinzha was tasked to torture Nezha destroyed me😭😭😭What did Jinzha even feel while he had to do it??

Also here some Nezha with his hair down again

[xiyouyanyi]

Welcome!

@ryin-silverfish here, also known as "That person who talks a lot about FSYY and fox spirits".

This is my little LMK AU sideblog, which started off as a bunch of disjointed background notes for my fanfics, but developed into its own gigantic thing over time.

I've said elsewhere that, despite LMK (and many other JTTW adjacent works) lifting certain tidbits wholesale from FSYY——like Nezha's backstory or the Golden Dragon Shears, neither the show nor the fanworks really go into the implications of a FSYY/JTTW combined universe.

(For one, Zhao Gongming's three sisters, the Sanxiao, showing up to kick Jin and Yin's butts for stealing and breaking their treasure would be very satisfying, and also hella badass.)

Well, be the change you want, they said. 

So here it is: Journey of the Gods, aka "LMK, but FSYY is also canon and an extremely influential historical event".

Inspired by @digitaldoeslmk 's By the Book AU.

What even is FSYY?

"Ancient China's bloodiest bureaucracy recruitment program, kickstarted by a king who simped too hard for the creator goddess of humanity and the fox girl she sent to end his dynasty."

"I'll write my own God-Demon novel, with blackjacks and fox hookers and no Buddhist allegories!" ——Xu Zhonglin/Lu Xixing/Li Yunxiang

Okay, jokes aside: Investiture of the Gods(Fengshen Yanyi) is the other big "God-Demon Novel" of the Ming dynasty, written after JTTW. It's about the toppling of the Shang dynasty and its tyrannical King Zhou by King Wu of Zhou——but with more Daoism, immortals and demons helping out both sides, and ten billion magical formations and treasures. 

At the end of the story, almost everyone who died in battle were deified and became the 365 gods of the Celestial Bureaucracy, thus "Investiture of the Gods". 

Here is a link to the only full English translation of FSYY, by Gui Zhizhong.

Here is my overview of FSYY's grand overarching conflict, a.k.a. "Why are all the Daoist immortals fighting?" 

Compared to JTTW, it's a lot more formulaic and suffers from a massive character count inflation problem, but also extremely influential in Chinese folk religion, to the point of some modern temples, like Qingyang Palace, basically worshiping characters from the novel! Like, the western equivalent would be a church worshiping Dante and Beatrice from the Divine Comedy.

(Similarly, it is to orthodox Daoism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian theology, and should not be treated as actual religious scriptures.)

Okay, FSYY happened in the LMK universe. So What?

Well, first, it will really do wonders to fill up that eerily empty Celestial Realm we see in the Spider Queen special, and the Celestial Bureaucracy will no longer consist of a grand total of five people.

Secondly, it can solve some major show-not-tell problems and actually give legitimacy to the grievances of the LMK Brotherhood + Havoc in Heaven, as well as fleshing out the Celestial Realm.

Third, so many cool magical treasures.

Fourth, LBD gets an origin story, with a twist.

Fifth, I delight in quality angst and horror, and FSYY had some seriously messed-up stuff and implications.

Sixth, Celestial Bureaucracy office politics.

Seventh, Nezha kicking asses and winning fights like he should.

Eighth, crazy Xianxia shit, as you’d expect from the great-granddaddy of modern Xianxia genre.

Ninth, infodumps about Chinese mythos and history trivias.

Tenth, Underworld lore.

...As you can probably tell, this is mostly just me nerding out and writing walls of texts. I'm not a very good artist and can't do Lego style, but will probably doodle some symbol/character designs for funsies.

I also derive most of my enjoyment from writing fix-its and worldbuilding, not shipping characters. Like, I love exploring individual characters through relationships, but just ain't a fan of romance.

There will be a lot of OCs, but unless otherwise specified, all of them will be based on actual characters from FSYY and JTTW, with a few folk gods sprinkled in for funsies.

With that taken care of: good luck and happy reading!