#Indo-European Mythology

[chimeride]

Illuyanka, the 248th Known One.

[ire-ethereal]

The Dagda

[alpaca-clouds]

About the Development of Myths

Okay, I will talk about more of the specific gods tomorrow again (starting first with the other gods from Stray Gods and then just looking over a variety of gods - I might start just with the greeks and then... venture into other mythologies). But first let me talk about the entire basis of what I have been talking about so far with the origins of Pan and Persephone: Their mythology is not a fixed thing.

Something that I would say education in general really fails on is properly expressing the amount of changes that cultures go through. I wrote about this before just in terms of history: There is not THE middle ages, not THE ancient Egypt, not THE ancient Greece and so on. All of those historical periods lasted for at least a thousand years. Now imagine that in like 500 years someone goes and looks at the 20th and 21st century as: "The World War and Globalisation period". Which I think there is a good chance this will at some point be known at (assuming we do not manage to eradicate our species before that, that is). Yet, you and I both know that if we were talking to someone from 1923 there would be very little we had in common.

Sure, this effect got massively accelerated thanks to the internet. But... You gotta have to assume that the Roman dude from 100 BC would also live in a very different world from the Roman dude of 200 BC. Because a hundred years is always going to involve a lot of change.

The reason we look at those old cultures as unchanging is, that they do not change anymore. And everyone who is neither working with that kinda stuff, nor is a complete geek, will just look at that culture as ONE FIRM THING rather than something fluent.

This is also true in terms of religion and related traditions, though we in the west are even more prone to it than other cultures. Because we do assume Christianity as this one thing. And the bible as this one unchanging thing. Hence the core believe is the same and, so the reasoning goes, was always the same. In fact, if you went to a religious school it is kinda how you were taught. The bible is one thing and always was the same thing. Only... It wasn't and even the basic we hve now does not matter.

Just look at the many Christian subreligions. They all in some way or form believe in Jesus, the one big God and all of that - but what they take from that widely differs. And the bible really does not have a big impact onto what ideals they hold and how they hold mass and how they pray and what not. If you think about it, you will easily see that, right? And if you just look a bit into what you might have learned about history in relation to Christianity, you will also know that this has changed. The role of Jesus has changed. How much the Holy Spirit is looked upon as an active actor. Which saints get venerated. All of that has changed a lot in just the last 50 years. And has changed a ton between the different countries.

And what I now need you to keep in mind that this was the exact same with the Ancient Gods and the religion attached to them. That holds true for the Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Egyptian Gods, the Norse Gods... all of them. The way they were worshipped changed over those thousand(s of) years they were worshipped.

So, let me once again talk about the Proto-Indo-European culture. Which is always a doosy and I love it.

The Proto-Indo-Europeans originates probably in the areas of modern day Ukraine and/or Romania and/or southern Russia some time around 5000 BC (scholars argue a bit about the exact temporal placement, just that it was somewhere between 7000 BC and 4000 BC). We do not really know a lot about them, because they did not write stuff down. But we do know that they had horses, were patriarchal, and that they worshipped a polytheistic pantheon that at least involved a Sky Father as one of the highest gods, who controlled the weather and was especially associated with storms and lightning.

These Proto-Indo-Europeans started breaking apart and travelling. Some into Asia, some into Europe and the Arabian/Persian areas. They brought with them their language and religion.

Now, it should be noted that they were not the "original humans" or anything. And that whereever they went... in most areas there were already other people living there, with whom they intermingled. Also whatever land they ended up settling was different, had different environments and this was included into their religious practice. Which made their religion over the years differ bit by bit. So from their pantheon sprang a lot of the pantheons we know today.

But... again, a lot of places they settled had already people living there. Who had their own worship. And that stuff often was also included and merged. Sometimes those other worships were very far reaching, sometimes very local. But some of those deities were picked up and either made part of whatever pantheon was there to come or was merged with an already existing god. And this happened again and again during the time that whatever pantheon was prayed to.

How do we know that, if it was not written down?

Well, mostly due to some archeology, but mostly due to comparative mythology and comparative linguistics. Two fields of science that basically involve people going over a lot of languages or mythologies (which, by the way, at times also includes fairytales and other oral narratives that are not necessarily held as "true", but still told) and basically finding things the reoccur. As well as going back over whatever written stuff we do have and noticing the shifts happening between a text written in 600 BC and a text written in 200 BC.

Now, for all the stuff we have two things that help a lot: a) The old Hindi writings and b) the written stuff from Egypt. Because both go really far back and were very well documented in writing. So basically we always can compare stuff to that and see shifts more clearly.

But, yeah... Technically all the pantheons are very much related. At some point Zeus, Jupiter, Diespiter, Thor, Tinia and Tian originated from the same character. You can even kinda see it in how similar the names are. Susanoo in Shinto-Mythology probably came from this, too, at least in the iteration we actually know about. (There can be some arguments made that a lot of the Shinto gods were shifted through the Buddhist contact, as the original indigenous Japanese cultures were very likely not Indo-European in origin. But given that the Ainu are the only culture whose oral tradition managed to survive this long, while the others either vanished or merged in a way influenced by Buddhism, which comes from Indo-European culture... yeah, it is there now.)

So, what I am saying: Mythology is shifting and always has been shifting. Same goes with religion. Hence the evolution of the Greek Pantheon.

Fun fact: Through comparative mythology we can also find the origins of YHW, the Abrahamitic god. Or God, as you might know him. He is a fascinating one, as he probably started out as a local god associated with harvest and weather in Southern Egypt and was then picked up by the Semitic cultures. He got a more pronounced role in the Canaanite pantheon, where at some point he merged with Baal, the war god. And through some trials and tribulations he finally ended up merging with El(hoim), the top god of the pantheon, with a part of the Canaanites splitting from the culture and developing into what would become the Jewish culture.

Super fascinating stuff. I love it.

[loki-was-framed]

Today's Old Norse Word in English:

loft

noun

a large, usually unpartitioned floor over a factory, warehouse, or other commercial or industrial space; such a floor converted into an apartment or artist's studio.

Old Norse: lopt, air, sky; upper room.

Note: Lopt is also another name for the Norse god Loki, which is why he's sometimes called "Skywalker" or "Sky Traveler."

[blackcrowing]

Blackcrowing's Master Reading List

I have created a dropbox with pdfs I have gathered over the years, I have done my best to only allow access to documents which I found openly available through sites like JSTOR, Archive.org, or other educational resources with papers available for download.

That being said I ALSO recommend (I obviously have not read all of these but they are either in my library or I intend to add them)

📚 Celtic/Irish Pagan Books

The Morrighan: Meeting the Great Queens, Morgan Daimler

Raven Goddess: Going Deeper with the Morríghan, Morgan Daimler

Irish Paganism: Reconstructing Irish Polytheism, Morgan Daimler

Ogam: Weaving Word Wisdom, Erynn Rowan Laurie

Celtic Cosmology and the Otherworld: Myths, Orgins, Sovereignty and Liminality, Sharon Paice MacLeod

Celtic Myth and Religion, Sharon Paice MacLeod

A Guide to Ogam Divination, Marissa Hegarty (I'm leaving this on my list because I want to support independent authors. However, if you have already read Weaving Word Wisdom this book is unlikely to further enhance your understanding of ogam in a divination capacity)

The Book of the Great Queen, Morpheus Ravenna

Litany of The Morrígna, Morpheus Ravenna

Celtic Visions, Caitlín Matthews

Harp, Club & Calderon, Edited by Lora O'Brien and Morpheus Ravenna

Celtic Cosmology: Perspectives from Ireland and Scotland, Edited by Jacqueline Borsje and others

Polytheistic Monasticism: Voices from Pagan Cloisters, Edited by Janet Munin

📚 Celtic/Irish Academic Books

Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200, Dáibhí Ó Cróinín

The Sacred Isle, Dáithi Ó hÓgáin

The Ancient Celts, Berry Cunliffe

The Celtic World, Berry Cunliffe

Irish Kingship and Seccession, Bart Jaski

Early Irish Farming, Fergus Kelly

Studies in Irish Mythology, Grigory Bondarnko

Prehistoric Archaeology of Ireland, John Waddell

Archeology and Celtic Myth, John Waddell

Understanding the Celtic Religion: Revisiting the Past, Edited by Katja Ritari and Alexandria Bergholm

A Guide to Ogam, Damian McManus

Cesar's Druids: an Ancient Priesthood, Miranda Aldhouse Green

Animals in Celtic Life and Myth, Miranda Aldhouse Green

The Gods of the Celts, Miranda Green

The Celtic World, Edited by Miranda J Green

Myth and History in Celtic and Scandinavian Tradition, Edited by Emily Lyle

Ancient Irish Tales, Edited by Tom P Cross and Clark Haris Slover

Cattle Lords and Clansmen, Nerys Patterson

Celtic Heritage, Alwyn and Brinley Rees

Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams

The Origins of the Irish, J. P. Mallory

In Search of the Irish Dreamtime, J. P. Mallory

The Táin, Thomas Kinsella translation

The Sutton Hoo Sceptre and the Roots of Celtic Kingship Theory, Michael J. Enright

Celtic Warfare, Giola Canestrelli

Irish Customs and Beliefs, Kevin Danaher

Pagan Celtic Ireland, Barry Raftery

Cult of the Sacred Center, Proinsais Mac Cana

Mythical Ireland: New Light on the Ancient Past, Anthony Murphy

Early Medieval Ireland AD 400-1100, Aidan O'Sullivan and others

The Festival of Lughnasa, Máire MacNeill

Curse of Ireland, Cecily Gillgan

📚 Indo-European Books (Mostly Academic and linguistic)

Dictionary of Indo-European Concepts and Society, Emily Benveniste

A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms in the Principle Indo-European Languages, Carl Darling Buck

The Horse, the Wheel and Language, David W. Anthony

Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, Robert S.P. Beekes

In Search of the Indo-Europeans, J.P. Mallory

Indo-European Mythology and Religion, Alexander Jacob

Some of these books had low print runs and therefore can be difficult to find and very expensive... SOME of those books can be found online with the help of friends... 🏴‍☠️

library genesis might be a great place to start... hint hint...

My kofi

[castilestateofmind]

"If you have ever come upon a grove that is thick with ancient trees rising far above the usual height and blocking the view of the sky with their cover of intertwining branches, the loftiness of the forest, the seclusion of the spot, and your wonder at the unbroken shade in the midst of open space will create in you the feeling of a divine presence".

-Seneca the Younger on the numina.

[pagan-stitches]

Text from:

The Sun Goddess: Myth, Legend and History by Sheena McGrath, 1997 (personal library)

[paganimagevault]

The Kargaly/Wusun diadem 2nd C. BCE - 2nd C. CE. Note, Katheryn's article below is much longer and has more info, I just took snips of what I found most interesting. It can be found online.

"According to Chinese archaeologists, the excavated skeletal remains presumed to be Wusun are of the short-headed Europoid Central Asian interfluvial type (Mallory Mair 2000: 93-94). On the basis of six skulls from the last centuries BC/first centuries AD found in Semirechye and presumed to be those of the Wusun, Soviet archaeologists have described them as ranging from primarily Europoid with some Mongoloid admixture to pure Europeans (Mallory Mair 2000: 93-94). Evidence from ancient Chinese texts is contradictory about the appearance of these peoples and only DNA and other types of scientific testing will bring clarity to this issue.

Although gold artefacts and inlay can be found dating from the Late Neolithic through to the Bronze Age in China, it was most prevalent in its borderlands (Bunker 1993: 27-46) until the Qin and Han, when it found preference on a broader scale.

In addition, the lost-wax lost-textile casting technology was developed and used (Bunker 1988: 222-27) in the area adjacent to the very tombs from where the iconography and style of the diadem hails. Observations about the inlay technology used on the diadem are important clues as well. Inlay appeared on Chinese-produced objects almost exclusively where a cell was created into which the stone was placed and adhered with some fixative (Bunker 1993). This is not the technique used to produce the diadem, where the gold was hammered into a matrix-template, then engraved (or chased) on the surface. Many of the cells for inlay were created in the hammering process and after the stones were in place, secured by hammering the bezels surrounding each stone. In addition, there were pierced cells filled from behind with stone and secured with the addition of a gold sheet adhered behind the stone. Items produced using such techniques would probably not have been created in Chinese foundries.

Moreover, gold animal plaques known from earlier Xiongnu tombs (third century BC) use inlay to enhance the natural conformation of the beasts (Figure 5). By placing inlays at the points of movement such as at the haunches of quadrupeds or at the wing joints of birds, the potential of movement and thereby the power of these wild creatures is underscored. Inlays also mark such features as eyes. On the Kargaly diadem, however, circular inlays are used decoratively as a patterned design, still often at the haunches, but also throughout the clouds. They no longer emphasize the natural form or movement of the animals or the clouds, but create an overall pattern. This recommends a later date for the diadem, perhaps late first or second century AD.

But why would such models be used in south-eastern Kazakhstan at this time? This is a unique piece—its style and iconography were nor known before or after in the region. The models for the iconography were taken from types known near Han imperial military outposts in a place where the Chinese hoped their troops could contain barbarian incursions and where peace and stability were difficult to maintain. Those units often included conscripts whose allegiance was opportunistic. The models for diadems (Stark 2012: 134) or for applications to adorn carts or clothing come from further west.

So, was this piece made in the Western Regions, in the territory beyond the Jade Gate of the Great Wall (in present day Gansu) that marked the boundary of Han hegemony, and then carried west? Was it perhaps made as a gift for an embassy to present to a Wusun or Yuezhi leader far outside of Han territory, such as in Wusun? Or, alternatively, was it carried by a regional princess to her place of exile and burial as the partner of one of those 'foreign' leaders?"

-Katheryn Linduff, Immortals in a foreign land: the Kargaly diadem. 2014, Antiquity, Vol 88, issue 339

[rrcraft-and-lore]

Tapati, who is she, and why is she significant?

Well, first, she is a river goddess, but daughter of the sun god, Surya. However, her name means the hot one, the burning one. Interestingly enough, her name is tied to the river she's said to rule over - HOWEVER, language time.

Agni, a vedic fire god, has a scythian counterpart similar in name (and the scythian's are the older culture that broke off to form the vedic, indo iranian/iranian, and levant people as well as others - mixing, breeding, invading).

Back to Tapati.

Her name is cognate with the Scythian supreme fire goddess, Tabiti. Very interesting.

Tabiti is the supreme goddess of all things in the Scythian culture, primordial, the first flame, and much like Ianna (from Summerian mythology I talked about later) went on to inspire entire god/goddess roles, and had mantles inverted as interestingly enough, there's evidence some first/supreme deities were feminine, later flipped to male as cultures evolved - their places/roles attributes assigned to male gods and their places changed - made wives, daughters, so on a similar sort of flipping happens out of the Scythian culture/ proto Indo Europeans (that I've talked about) where the root word for a divine (doesn't mean good just divinely powered) being evolved along languages the ahura, asura, and asir (Norse) come from an older proto Indo-European/Scythian word.

In the Vedic stories, the daevas are good, the asura evil. In the Avestan and Iranian texts...the ahura/asura are good, and the daevas are evil.

We know the Norse asir and vanir warred also very interesting. And interesting how gods/goddesses are changed, subsumed, adopted and more, no? Tabiti was never represented in/by art, btw. Her representation was always an actual fireplace -- a flame. That's what you used.

There's historical written evidence in places of Agni's animal form being both referred to as a bull, AND a cow in places - different genders. And his flame being referred to as female in places.

In the Hindu bronze age, Agni had way more of a prominent role as fire did before later dwindling...as fire does (ooooo symbolic - okay that's just cuz of time and shifting priorities), but there are more similarities of these things in Baltic cultures -- but oh why?

(Why am I hopping around? Cuz gods/goddesses, archetypes, beats, stories all do too - all connected you muppets).

Well, did you know the closest cognate to Sanskrit is Lithuanian? It's kept so much of its proto Indo European roots.

Wait, a South Asian language and Baltic European language are cognates? YUH. WEIRD.

Almost like they both derived out of an older culture, language, their practices, beliefs and more.

And most of human history is just migrating, fucking, invading, and settling in new places and staying long enough until your features continue to change due to bow chicka wow wowing and environment.

Funny how that works.

Here's some Scythian clothing (oh btw, women were warriors/could be too - congrats you learned that).

Does this style look familiar? Yeah, you can see the evolution/adaptation from this to later styles (bearing similarities) in Iran, India, Mongolia, the Baltics.

Cuz....y'know, that's where the proto Indo Europeans went about their biz and got jiggy with it and settled. Wow-wow-wee-wah! Okay now I'm done. Circular ish convo to get there but started with a fire goddess, it's relevant, but it all comes back to this.

Btw, this is also an important lesson for fantasy authors.

Because of all these connections and how old a bad ass fire goddess is, many of the oldest cultures are regarded as fire worshippers (like the Zoroastrians) did you know some keep an eternal burning flame? -- one is in Udvada Gujarat in India.

This flame has been said to have been kept burning for 1,500 years.

FIFTEEN HUNDRED.

And again, while most of the surviving Indo Iranic sun gods are male, there is evidence the ORIGINAL sun deity (including in/from the German, Baltic, and Slavic religions) was FEMALE.

[archaeology-findings]

Daily French Etymology #56

Autochtone (native)

Autochtone came from the Ancient Greek autókhthōn, meaning indigenous or native. It was derived from auto-, meaning self, and khthṓn, meaning earth or soil, thus it literally translates to 'spring from the earth'. Khthṓn came from the Proto-Hellenic *kʰtʰṓn, from the PIE root *dʰéǵʰōm, meaning earth or human.

Derived from this same root is the English word chthonic, which means living under or inside the earth, especially deities from ancient mythologies, such as Hades and the Furies in Greek mythology.

[ire-ethereal]

The Dagda

[alpaca-clouds]

Roman Gods ≠ Greek Gods

Okay, given that Stray Gods has kinda pulled me into that Mythology thing again... Let me quickly say something: No, the Roman Gods are not just the Greek Gods.

A lot of media - like A LOT - acts as if the Roman Gods are just basically the Greek Gods with some minor changes. But, like... They are not. And acting as if they were is simply misunderstanding how religions and thier mythologies work.

If you were to look at it like this, you could argue that YHW is Zeus and is Susanoo as well, if we are on that. (Alright, last one is a topic we gotta argue about.) Because here is the thing: All European and a good chunk of Asian and some North African cultures came from or were influenced by the Indo-Europeans. Aka, some folks who lived some more than 6000 years ago, who were a big influence in making horses a thing and promptly used those horses to spread over the previously mentioned areas. With them they brought their languages and their mythology. Both things that shifted over hundreds of years, creating on one hand the different languages - as well as the different mythologies.

Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Norse mythologies are part of that. As is the Semitic mythology - which obviously birthed Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The gods did not originate with the Greeks. They were much older than that. We even know from where some of the Greek gods came, as we have fragments documenting them being worshiped by some pre-greek cultures.

Which is kinda where the entire thing with the Greeks and Romans comes in. The incorporation of the Greek gods to the Roman religion seems so obvious to us, because it is so well documented. Because both cultures wrote down a lot of stuff, which gave historians the amazing ability to understand a lot more about their culture and religion - because they could read all of it. It is not like with the Norse or the Celtic mythology where the people in question only transmitted those stories orally, making it so that the first to write those stories down were people who did not actually believe in them/practiced the religion and wrote them down from a more or less outsiders perspective. So, we know a lot of those gods and we can very clearly see that the Romans adapted a lot from the Greeks.

But... here is the thing: Not only they adapted them, but quite a few gods were also fused with deities local to Rome and what is modern day Italy. Both things were merged - and there are in fact some gods in which the Italic version of them is more influencial than the Greek one.

Obviously, the Italic people were also from Indo-European roots, so yeah, it probably made sense to merge Zeus and Diespiter, who both were "sky fathers" into one deity.

Yes, there was a whole political aspect in taking over the pantheon.

But saying "Oh, yeah, they just painted over the names" is just ignorant of the cultural context.

[blackcrowing]

Blackcrowing's Book Review Masterpost

Irish Paganism: Reconstructing Irish Polytheism, Morgan Daimler

The Book of the Great Queen, Morpheus Ravenna

The Druids, Peter Berresford Ellis

The Horse, the Wheel and Language, David W Anthony

Celtic Cosmology and the Otherworld, Sharon Paice MacLeod

The History of the Vikings: Children of Ash and Elm, Neil Price

A Practical Guide to Pagan Priesthood, Lora O'Brien

God Against the Gods, Jonathan Kirsch

A History of Pagan Europe, Prudence Jones & Nigel Pennick

A Guide to Ogam Divination, Marissa Hegarty

Polytheistic Monasticism, Jann Munin

Ireland's Immortals, Mark Williams

A Circle of Stones, Erynn Rowan Laurie

This is a growing list that will be added to as new reviews are made

My kofi

[castilestateofmind]

"The beliefs and practices of pagan origin that survived Christianity were those that the men of the first Church called "pagan", that is, typical of the inhabitants of the "pagi", of the peasants. It was more difficult for the higher mythological systems, the great theogonies, to remain alive. The belief in a numen of the fountains, of rivers, of forests, or caves (or a family cult) could survived more easily than the complex cults of the Greeks and Romans".

-Julio Caro Baroja.

[harpagornis]

Tried to repost on tumblr but the damn site wouldn't allow me.