#IMMERSION

[physalian]

Your colloquialisms are ruining the immersion (or, non-contemporary dialogue)

I am no expert here! Whenever I wrote historical fiction it was anachronistic historical fiction. This advice is from a reader’s perspective and from my experience writing high fantasy.

So what’s the deal with immersive dialogue? I’m going to ignore writing dialects and accents and so-called “old English” with the thee, thy, thou and such. Solely focusing here on the narrative telling me this isn’t set in present times, and yet the dialogue being painfully colloquial like present times.

This is coming from a book I had to read set in HRE times. In it, characters were spouting modern curse words, tacking on verbal tics and crutch words like “or something” and “um” and drawing out words like “daaaamn” and “nooooo”. Rip out the dialogue and toss it in a script with zero context and it would read like two high schoolers from 2009, not two adults from the Holy Roman Empire. Which is a problem, because it completely shattered the immersion. —

1. On so-called “formal writing”

Everybody knows that nixing contractions doesn’t do a damn thing to help your writing look more “formal”, it just looks robotic and stiff, right? We’ve gotten past this as a society? There’s a time and a place for replacing contractions with the full words, but not for every single sentence.

I swear this show keeps creeping into my writing advice but here we go. Transformers Prime. The context for Optimus’ dialogue has a lot to do with his aging voice actor, Peter Cullen, and the perception of the character over the decades from the corny 80s paragon hero everyman type leader to the grizzled and wizened old soul type leader. Optimus isn’t “one of the guys,” he’s old. Very old. He’s the dad of the group (one dad, his grumpy medic is the other dad).

So he gets lines like:

“I fear Megatron’s ambition is at its zenith.”

“But if his return is imminent as I fear, it could be a catastrophic.”

“I bore Skyquake no ill-will.”

He doesn’t curse like the other Autobots. His voice only raises in surprise, horror, or rage. He doesn’t go “um/ah/so/but/eh” and always thinks about what he’s going to say well before he says it. Despite him, Ratchet (the dad medic), and Megatron all being very old, Optimus is the only one who’s “proper” and collected and dignified with his lines. The writers didn’t achieve this simply by omitting contractions, he gets them where necessary and removes them when effective (e.g “We do not.” / “We don’t.”)

2. Thesaurus Rex

Continuing with the Optimus example, no other character in that show would use “zenith” unironically. Or “ill-will”. This doesn’t mean crack open and abuse a thesaurus but there’s a huge divide between:

“Megatron’s gone crazy and he’s going to implode soon” and “Megatron’s ambition is at its zenith”.

I can’ think of a better word to use than dignified, perhaps distinguished to describe his dialogue.

He doesn’t say “what?” when he’s confused, he pauses and says something like “please elaborate”.

This is both word choice and a syntax issue so if you’re struggling to fit a non-contemporary vibe for your work, pay attention to both.

3. When to abstain from cursing

There’s something very special about the dialogue in the Lord of the Rings movies: It’s PG-13 so they can’t curse, but if they had, it would have probably ruined the trilogy. These characters are able to yell in rage and anguish, spit vicious insults at their enemies, and stare down armies that are determined to kill them, all while never breaking the immersion.

Insults like:

“Late is the hour in which this conjurer chooses to appear.”

“Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth, you witless worm.”

“Your words are poison.”

And all three were said by or about Grima Wormtongue.

Characters aren’t dumbasses, they’re fools, with the exception of Gollum’s insults toward Sam, the “stupid, fat hobbit”.

Even devoid of name-calling, Denethor absolutely trounces his second son by asking (and I’m paraphrasing) “Is there any man here willing to do his lord’s bidding?” right after Faramir expresses some apprehension about a suicide charge with his remaining soldiers, completely ignoring him and implying that he’s not a real man.

LOTR is full of juicy lines beyond curse words, too. One of my absolute favorites is: “Dark have been my dreams of late” as opposed to “I’ve been having nightmares lately.”

Do you see?? It’s poetry. The motif of Shadow and Darkness as if they’re real, physical things, all the lines of poetry pulled straight from the books like Theoden’s “where is the horse and the rider” monologue just before Helm’s Deep.

It’s dignified.

—

This one was a bit harder to, ironically, put into words without doing a full-blown case study into either franchise’s ability to write dialogue and monologues. I didn’t even talk about Ratchet’s several monologues (one of which was done perfectly in the sound booth on the first take) because Jeffrey Combs has a voice like ambrosia.

TLDR: Immersion goes far beyond your vivid setting descriptors and the clothing or the names and languages. I mostly write fantasy and sci-fi and whenever I read or watch fantasy and sci-fi that isn’t meant to be a world different from our own, or about characters who don’t speak modern English, and they go off with modern slang, syntax, and verbal tics, it just feels sloppy and weak. Pay attention to the following:

Syntax

Modern slang and jargon

Filler words/verbal tics

Curse words/curses

Flat, unmotivated vocab

*All of the quotes were from memory because I watch both of these franchises way too often. So apologies if I got any wrong.

[vaxolang]

" Immersion "

Acrylic on Canvas

Size 20 x 30 cm.

[nihongo-enthusiast]

The Difference of それに、それでは、それで、それでも

1. それに = on top of that; in addition...

• このレストランは料理が美味しい。それに、値段���安い。

This restaurant serves delicious food. On top of that, the price is cheap too.

---------------------------------------------------

2. それでは = and so ...; and now...

• それでは、次の議題に移りましょう。

And so, let's move on to the next topic.

---------------------------------------------------

3. それで = so; therefore...

• 昨日は大雨が降った。それで、試合は中止になった。

Yesterday it rained so heavily. Therefore, the game was cancelled.

---------------------------------------------------

4. それでも = even though A, but still wanna do B; Despite..., but he still...

• 雨が降っている。それでも、彼は出かけるつもりだ。

It is raining. But he still intends to go out.

[ksjanes]

Vast and Immersive

Great Sand Dunes National Park 

[leoquievreux]

Cyberdream (forthcoming)

[autumngravity]

People who know what to do archive the shit out of everything RT because of WBs/David Zaslavs recent behavior I'm scared everything that's not directly show related(hell I'm scared for the main shows) is gonna be wiped out.

[marejadilla]

Aaron Westerberg, "Immersion', oil on panel. American artist.

[random-xpressions]

Some when they read words, they read it as spectators, placing themselves outside while others when they read words they become those words, they jump into them, feeling themselves within them, total absorption. The first one is a mere passerby while the latter class is drenched in its depths and in its meanings. One watching the rain and the other utterly soaked in its experience...

Random Xpressions

[notayamichan]

🌟 Learning Japanese 🇯🇵

🔔　あたしのガイドは、人が英語を話す向けー　(⁠◔⁠‿⁠◔⁠)

The following guide is based on my personal experience. I am not an authority on the matter and I am still barely a beginner regarding Japanese.

What am I doing?

Learning languages seems non-lienar and that's partly true (at an intermediate level). But, when you're first starting out, there's generally clear goals to work toward.

Your Beginner Goals

Study and master kana

Japanese employs hiragana and katakana in conjunction with kanji. Together, hiragana and katakana make up kana.

Learn the kana (hiragana and katakana)

Learn the difference between kunyomi and onyomi (kanji)

Delve into grammar and establish some foundational vocab

Immerse yourself with input content (movies, shows, etc)

Study and practice a basic form of "pitch accent"

Continue developing your vocab and particle knowledge

Learn about polite versus casual talk and social culture

Use the language (letters, blog, diary, etc)

Seek conversations to apply the language properly

Find and study tests like JLPT to gauge your progress

What can I use?

Duolingo

If this was your first pick, you're naive but not foolish. It'll teach you enough to get help if you're lost in Japan. But it won't be enough to hold a conversation. Give it a try and see if it works for you. Duolingo is free.

I recommend using Duolingo as a supplementary learning tool rather than your primary learning tool

Textbooks and Guides

Many learners and even classes praise numerous textbooks. I for one received a recommendation for Tae Kim's Japanese Guide. So, I'll recommend it to you. Don't be afraid to see out other guides or attempt some textbooks. However, one should always remember that the textbook is NOT demonstrative of naturalistic Japanese.

For example, 「私は猫が好きです」 is what a textbook correctly teaches, though 「猫好きだよ」 is acceptable and more natural in casual Japanese

Building vocabulary

If you want to develop your vocabulary, you can use JLPT anki decks. Anki is a flashcard program for desktop and mobile. You can also use anki in conjunction with a dictionary like Jisho to create new flashcards decks (suited to the words you'd like to learn). You may also pick up vocab from Japanese media (i.e, anime, manga, books, content creators, music, etc).

If you're using Jisho and want to find a word you only know in English, search for it using quotation marks. For example, "school" or, if you want a verb "to learn" ~ it should help. You can spell out Japanese words normally by just typing... i.e, watashi.

Good input versus Bad input

Immersing yourself in Japanese media and culture is good but you need to be mindful of the content you're consuming— take note of the context behind events, interactions, or the relationship of speakers. Be especially mindful of anime and manga— both are known to use hyperbolic language or phrases that aren't commonly used in day to day conversation. Fortunately, some anime and manga do use everyday language, and you can usually find lists.

I recommend using the Tofugu blog to learn about both Japanese language and culture. But if you don't like reading, there are many YT channels like Kaname Naito and NihongoDekita with Sayaka. For general immersion though, here's a sweet vlog channel, a JP Warframe creator, and a natural born otaku.

[physalian]

On "immersion" in narrative

I should be relaxing today taking a victory lap because my book is finally live on sale, woo!

But I have this to say first, in the realm of “you can’t please everyone”. I am not a reader who enjoys extremely fluffy narrative, not “fluff” as in “feel good cotton candy stuff” but as in “300 words of describing the layout of a bedroom” fluff. I don’t like when the pacing moves as slow as molasses, not for introspection, but for telling about every little thing that happens in the story no matter how irrelevant it is to the story or its characters.

I had a beta reader for ENNS who left at least 20 comments across my narrative asking for all this extra material because my book felt too lean. I had a birthday party for a side character’s newborn daughter, when the side character herself was never even named. The plot takes place in a castle, and, shocker, the castle isn’t only populated by Main Characters.

It was just the inciting incident of the chapter that got my characters staged in the right location and the right mindset (happy fun birthday party, sourpuss self-saboteur protagonist is really missing out).

But she’d left me a comment asking for probably at least an extra 500-700 words of details about this party. She wanted to know about the food that was served, what everybody was wearing, what music they were listening to. She wanted to have actual dialogue between the new mother and some important character, some comment about life and death and parallels, and wanted all these details about a three-day-old newborn baby.

I deleted that comment. And every other comment like it.

Why? She is not my target audience and was my only beta with such notes, but also, even if this was that kind of book, she failed to understand what, I think, counts as meaningful to the narrative. That baby only showed up maybe twice in the book. The mother, like I said, never named.

The point of the party was simply “hey happy times exist in this place that you hate, Protagonist”. Spending paragraphs upon paragraphs on a little narration side quest to give you irrelevant details that don’t advance either the plot, the worldbuilding (there were other parties where I described the clothes and food and music), the important characters’ thoughts, feelings, goals, or conflicts, at the cost of keeping the pacing more consistent would have been superfluous.

And that party in of itself was fluff. I was following through on the set up of a pending newborn, spent time describing how a castle full of immortal vampires who don’t have to sleep can crochet baby clothes for a week straight and now this baby has far more clothes than she could ever hope to wear before she grows out of them. I had my narrator, a vampire, comment on how much he likes these events because new life is so rare in this bleak setting. I spent a few sentences describing the baby herself, and then he left to continue the story, taking talk of the party to the pissy protagonist and going “buddy you are allowed to have fun and meet the baby and your attitude is really getting old.”.

500 words might not sound like a lot, but she had asked for these extra paragraphs constantly. She argued it was for immersion.

The thing is.

I don’t like superfluous fluff, but I do like fluff in moderation. I don’t think any one element that takes up more than two sentences or so should exist for one sole, niche purpose. Meaning: You want to toss in a detail about a supporting character’s woodturning hobby? Great! You want to spend two whole paragraphs going on a tangent about this hobby that never comes up again and isn’t actually that important to the character? Why?

This is not to say that I think all books should be lean, this is just what I like. I don’t have the attention span to sit around waiting for the plot the author forgot about so I can read a whole page about the kingdom’s irrelevant potato farming practices. I do have time for a couple sentences about the irrelevant potatoes. I do have time to read a whole page about the kingdom’s potatoes if it’s setup for a potato famine.

There are ways to be immersive without overkill. All this counts as exposition—establishing details that set up your world and your story—and what she was asking for was a series of exposition dumps, several of which were redundant.

As a writer, I work very hard to give expository details as they become necessary. I won’t describe the dresses at a party until my narrator has time to thoughtfully comment on said dresses at said party—which he did. He came from a place that didn’t have dresses, much less lavish parties, and criticized the castle’s hedonistic opulence. He wasn’t plotting his escape, stopping mid-thought to tell the reader about the costumes, and then carrying on.

I could have waxed poetic all day as well-constructed and seamlessly as I could to work in those details to try and make them matter, but a) that would be rehashing the ‘hedonistic opulence’ and b) it really, truly, did not matter.

Would a reader like her enjoy my book? Eh, probably not. Would a reader like me enjoy her book? Eh, probably not.

There is plenty of room in libraries and on bookstore shelves for “lazy river” style books where the whole point is reading about as many details as the author can cram between the pages and there really isn’t a plot, it’s more about the setting and the relationships. Can’t mess up the pacing with an exposition dump if there is no pacing. Not my kind of story.

Doesn’t make either of us bad writers. She will have her audience and I have mine. I only argue for details that serve a purpose, and if that purpose is a solitary and weak one, then that’s not enough for me.

[vaxolang]

"Immersion"

Acrylic painting on canvas

Size 30x30 cm

[multilingual-wannabe]

frenchblr or rather french tumblr is there a french community? less on the side of french learners community more on the side of french blogs i.e. ppl posting in french whether it's native speakers or not? i'd love to frenchify my dash more for immersion but it's so hard to find blogs

frenchblr ou plutot les francophones sur tumblr y a-t-il une communaute francaise ? pas necessairement pour ceux qui apprennent la langue en ce qui concerne astuces et conseils mais j'aimeria trouver des personnes qui publient en francais que ce soit les natives ou les apprenants ? j'aimerais bien suivre plus de blog francophones afin d'augmenter l'immersion

[celinexck]

How am I supposed to carry on after witnessing this breathtaking exhibition?

[allinllachuteruteru]

Langblrs who’ve self-studied one or more languages to at least the C1 level without leaving your country (or state/province)—what were the best methods or self-immersion tips you used to push from B2 to C1 in speaking and writing?

[leoquievreux-books]

Split, octobre 2024, suite et fin de la série Le Programme Immersion / 184 pages N&B. Disponible en librairie et sur le site des éditions Matière: matiere.org