#I was not saying that jon cares for sansa more than dany

[saltywinteradult]

How is Dany is abusive to Jon?

Honest question, I’ve never given it a thought

I'm sorry this took me so long, anon, and I am really sorry for how long this post got. I had a lot of thoughts on this.

Before we begin, I'd like to point you to this compilation of Jon's reactions to Dany, which hardly paints a picture of a man who is happy and in love, as well as this post and this gifset, both pointing out the parallels between Jon's relationship with Dany and Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger, the latter being a relationship I hope most people can agree is abusive.

It's absolutely crucial to remember that in this relationship, Dany is the person with the power. She is the one with the dragons and the biggest army, and she is willing to both use and abuse that power to get her way.

Furthermore, Dany wants the North's loyalty, but the North needs her help. (The fact that it's Dany's duty as well as in her own best interest to help fight the Others is a different discussion; she doesn't seem to understand this anyway.) She has agreed to grant that help, but she could easily withdraw it if she chooses. She has more power than literally anyone else and there's simply no escaping that power imbalance - it permeates every single interaction Dany has with Jon and all the other Northerners for all of s7 and the first half of s8.

I want you to remember how Dany treats Jon on Dragonstone. His weapons and his boat are taken away immediately upon his arrival. She says Jon is "not yet" her prisoner, but 1) that line very clearly implies that she could make him her prisoner if she chooses to, and 2) how much does it really matter that Jon is "not yet" her prisoner when she's already taken away his means of defending himself or leaving the island? Remember how she later tells him "I haven't given you permission to leave." Girl, what happened to Jon not being your prisoner?

I think it's also very telling that Dany never once addresses Jon by his proper title of King in the North, even before he bends the knee. As you may recall, Dany cares a great deal about titles. She never grants Jon the same respect she demands for herself, and she likes to remind Jon that she is his Queen even during a supposedly intimate, romantic scene.

(Gif by yocalio via gameofthronesdaily)

Earlier in this scene, Dany pointed out that they could stay here in this secluded spot, away from the kingdom and its politics, and no one would find them. Yet even here, away from the rest of the world, she makes a point of referring to herself as "your Queen".

I point all of this out to illustrate that from the very beginning and throughout their relationship, Dany views Jon as a subordinate, not an equal. That is very much not a good foundation for a healthy and equal romantic relationship. Her constant expectation is that Jon will submit, obey, give things up to benefit her, and ensure that the people he has power over act the way she wants.

Case in point:

"Your sister doesn't like me. [...] She doesn't need to be my friend, but I am her Queen. If she can't respect me..."

The implication is that Sansa is doing something wrong by not liking or respecting Dany (meaning "not acting deferential enough for Dany's taste"). The fact that Dany is saying this to Jon and not to Sansa herself implies that it's Jon's responsibility to ensure that Sansa behaves acceptably. "If she can't respect me..." Then what? What exactly is she implying will be the consequences? That their romantic relationship will end? Something worse?

At this point, the North has bent the knee to Dany. As their monarch this is not an entirely unreasonable thing to ask of her subjects - but it's not a very reasonable thing for a girlfriend to ask of her boyfriend, is it? The line between Jon and Dany's political relationship as monarch and subject and their personal relationship as girlfriend and boyfriend isn't just blurred, it's practically nonexistent. To state the obvious, there is a reason we decided that absolute monarchies are bad here in the real world. There is also a reason why a boss dating a subordinate is frowned upon in the real world. Big power imbalances are a bad idea in general and in romantic relationships especially. They should at the very least be considered and navigated carefully. Dany not only fails to do so; she is only happy with her and Jon's relationship when she has power over him.

For proof, let's look at how she reacts when that power imbalance is upended by the revelation of Jon's true identity:

This revelation is a bombshell for Jon. Everything he thought he knew about his own origins turns out to be untrue. However, Dany's first and only thought is how this affects her. Her first reaction is denial and scepticism; the second is to turn cold as soon as she realises that this makes Jon a threat to her ambitions.

There's also this line:

"A secret no one in the world knew, except your brother and your best friend. Doesn't seem strange to you?"

Which implies... What, exactly? That Sam and Bran made this up? Why? Just like with Sansa in the previous scene, we see Dany questioning the actions and intentions of Jon's loved ones. Remember that.

Things escalate in episode 4:

Dany is faced with the notion that Jon might hold more political power than she thought, that they might actually be on somewhat equal footing, and this makes her unhappy.

"I want it to be the way it was between us."

Her desire is to continue their sexual relationship and to return to the previous status quo where she held more power than him and therefore didn't consider him a threat. Jon having a stronger claim to the throne than her threatens Dany's sense of her own identity and purpose, and she reacts by trying to deny and suppress this reality:

"You can say nothing, to anyone, ever! Swear your brother and Samwell Tarly to secrecy and tell no one else! Or it will take on a life of its own and you won't be able to control it or what it does to people!"

(Imagine this with the genders reversed. Yikes.)

Dany is demanding Jon keep his own identity secret from his own family. That's not a reasonable thing to ask of a person you love. Not for one second does she show any consideration for how Jon might feel or what Jon might want. It's all about her. Her expectation is that Jon suppress his own identity, his own reality, to benefit Dany's ambitions. Never once does it seem to occur to Dany that what Jon does with this secret is up to him to decide, not her. His agency is of no concern to her.

Jon: I have to tell Sansa and Arya. Dany: Sansa will want to see me gone and you on the Iron Throne. [...] She's not the girl you grew up with. Not after what she's seen, not after what they've done to her. [...] Jon: They're my family. We can live together. Dany: We can. I've just told you how.

Here we are again with Dany questioning the motives and agendas of Jon's loved ones. Now she's no longer implying but outright stating that they're working against her. What we have here is a pattern of Dany implying that Jon's loved ones are up to no good and can't be trusted. I don't need to explain why that is a dangerous and manipulative thing to do to one's partner, right?

I also want you to pay extra attention to how Emilia delivers that final line. Throughout the whole scene Dany is distraught and desperate, but at this point she turns cold and closed off with an unmistakable anger that Jon won't agree to do as she demands. It is very hard not to read a threatening undertone into that line. "Keep it secret, or else."

Before we move on to episode 5, I'd like to highlight this line, spoken by Dany to Tyrion and Varys in episode 4:

"Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it's good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them."

Let's be clear on one thing here: Cersei could choose to back down and surrender to avoid bloodshed - but, and I cannot stress this enough, so could Dany. Cersei and Dany are both being selfish and power-hungry by refusing to give up the throne in order to avoid bloodshed. But to admit that would ruin Dany's deeply rooted self-image as morally superior to her enemies. So what does she do instead? She deflects blame. She's the one with the dragons, but if she makes the sky fall down on people, as she puts it, it's not her fault. Keep that in mind.

Now for the absolute low point:

"What did I say would happen if you told your sister? [...] She betrayed your trust. She killed Varys as much as I did. This was a victory for her. Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you."

Okay. Varys was conspiring against Dany, which he could've chosen not to do; I guess Dany was within her rights to punish him. She still could've chosen to imprison him, or at least give him a trial. Nobody made her kill him. But as we've just seen, Dany doesn't like to accept responsibility for her own decisions. She'd rather deflect the blame onto the people who displease her.

What's more, she's not just blaming Sansa for Varys's death but Jon as well, for telling Sansa the secret in the first place - which Jon was well within his rights to do! He never agreed not to tell anyone. That wasn't up to Dany to decide in the first place. Jon did what he wanted to do and not what she wanted him to do, so now everything Dany does as a result of Jon's actions is Jon's fault? Do I even need to explain how shitty this is?

"Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don't have love here. I only have fear."

This is entirely true. She never stops to think about why Jon is more beloved in Westeros than she is, but whatever. What's important is that after this, Dany initiates a kiss and Jon rebuffs her.

(Gifs from snowsource)

"Alright then. Let it be fear."

Again, what exactly do we think she's implying here? Remember the context. During this conversation, Jon already told her "you will always be my queen". He hasn't rejected her as his queen (which at this point he damn well should), he's just rejecting her sexual advances. And yet, Dany's reaction to his personal rejection of her is to embrace "fear", which again refers to how all of Westeros sees her, not just Jon. Dany already deflected blame for her previous actions onto people who displeased her including Jon, and now she's deflecting the blame for her future actions in the same way. And we all know what she did after this, don't we? I don't know how the line "let it be fear" can mean anything other than "you rejected me and that's why I'm going to embrace being feared, so whatever I do now in the name of being feared is really your fault. Look what you made me do." If that isn't abuse, I don't know what is.

[raidark]

One thing I find funny from Show Dany haters is how much they call her an egomaniac tyrant who just wanted to control everything and everyone to obey her, that she only cared about the throne and power. How much they laugh at the idea of her trying to help common people, break the system and in general, give power to powerless people, etc. That she would only want power for herself and would loathe democracy more than any other character.

These people are also the ones who laughed along Season 8 Sansa, Tyrion, Arya and others when Sam proposed democracy as a system for Westeros at the end of the show.

To all that people, I'd like to kindly remind that before leaving for Westeros, Daenerys established democracy in Meereen (and the rest of the Bay of Dragons, I suppose). She and Tyrion spent some undetermined time to plan it and then left Daario and the Second Sons to keep the peace while people chose their rulers and a new government was appointed.

Now, while I'm sure we all would have liked to know the aftermatch of that, how things worked there after her leaving and especially after her death, we won't ever know thanks to certain writers who kinda forgot about it after S6, only remembering the Bay when deciding that slaying slavers was apparently a sign of madness and evilness ?¿

If you ask me, with Dany dead, most of her army destroyed as well, and no one else strong enough to protect the Bay, slavery will return and way worse. But that wasn't something D&D wanted people to think about because that would add some grey to the situation and they wanted Dany to be irremediably unjustifiable in her acts and her death the only option with only good consequences. Just to be clear, I think S8 Dany, a total different character from previous seasons, deserved to die after what she did. But go and visit the Bay in ten years, Jon and Tyrion, and ask them if what you two did was good. Surely and certaintly there were consequences.

In any case, since we'll never know what would happen, the series ends with Daenerys being the only ruler who actually cared for her people enough that she actually gave them total power to choose who should rule them... just 12 episodes before the writers decided she should mass murder innocents for literally no reason at all

She remains the only one who established real democracy that considered people no matter their origins or status (and not merely in a organization like the Night Watch) while the high nobles of Westeros laughed and considered the idea ridiculous. What a tyrant, right?

I'd have liked Sam to know the one who actually established his idea in a different place was the queen he hated so much, while all the others laughed. I'd have also liked if he was told what his family did and how many people died because of their betrayal, how many chances were even then offered to them, rather than just "they didn't bend the knee so i killed them lol". But the goal in Season 8 was always to paint Dany as a villain with no gray in the middle, just like they made Jon lie to his family and the lords and say Dany forced him to bend the knee in order to help the North when she actually swore to defend it without any commitment to her cause the moment she realized the threat was real and no fantasy. Yet no one, not even Dany, ever blinked an eye about this. Like it was retconned to frame her as evil.

[atopvisenyashill]

What are your thoughts on GRRM’s new notablog post on HOTD S2?

omg i'm sorry so i did not get notified that i had a few new asks, i didn't even see this until i logged in on desktop. tumblr eat shit smh.

ANYWAYS.

I actually agree with Xiran Jay Zhao, here, where they said this was a warning shot. It feels like a warning shot. Like a "hey I'm being nitpicky and pedantic now but if you think I won't go scroched earth you got another thing coming." I've seen so much "this is unprofessional" "this is annoying" "why is he complaining" and I think it is not only mind boggling to side with a corporation and the idiots running these shows (and we know I mostly like Condal and Hess, but come on Condal was the mastermind of Sansa Bolton why are we defending him right now!!), I think everyone is blowing his comments wildly out of proportion. He didn't take a dig at anyone but the writer's room and more specifically Ryan Condal, who he has had a working relationship with for well over a decade. He didn't shittalk any casting, he didn't shittalk any specific writers or directors except one of the main showrunners, he compliments the special effects, he has consistently had (and imo is careful) nothing but praise for the actors, even minor roles like Blood & Cheese. This was an incredibly milqtoast "please remember that every change has huge affects on the narrative later" critique and the people handwringing over his behavior are absolute losers, I'm sorry.

And beyond the fact that he didn't make any huge digs, I think this conversation also wildly ignores the way authors have no control over their own characters once they sign the rights over. They can be completely bamboozled by changes and they have no recourse to go "what the hell are you doing." And yet, signing your book's rights away (even if the production sits in developmental hell for decades) is usually what nets these author's the most money - GRRM surely makes a shitton off his books, but most authors get paid absolutely nothing even when they're wildly popular because of how book deals work now. Take, again, Xiran for example - Iron Widow was a huge runaway hit, a good and fresh take on this new boom of culturally based sff. And yet Xiran has talked about how they immediately set to work writing a middle grade novel because they desperately needed the money because they got paid 16k over two years for their runaway hit that made their publishers significantly more than 16k. I think George is not only mad for authors with less control than he has but also, obviously, for himself - I've said time and again, but I do think Dark Daenerys is where we are headed, and the fact that they completely botched showing it has got to smart. And if the ending for Dany is anything other than Jon killing her, that has got to smart too. So he watched these people fuck up his original series and push him completely out of that writer's room as they made more and more changes, and now he's watching s2 of HOTD and seeing some changes and getting some real bad vibes. It's not doomerism to think s3 is going to go massively off the rails when we have seasons 6-8 of the main show to show us just how off the rails it can go!

So anyways, that part of my rant over (and please believe me when I say I checked myself here because I could rant for hours about how it's genuinely so upsetting to see people call him unprofessional over this when not only did he write the fucking series, but he's lived in this series for three decades!!!!! this is his whole life, this is his legacy, of course he's feeling some type of way about how it's handled jesus christ on a cracker, there's people who have said worse about their mediocre nyt pushed bestsellers getting adapted badly!), when it comes to the actual meat of his post....I'm sorry idk how anyone is annoyed by this post because it was hilarious to me. He spent a whole blog post whinging about how Dead Baby #4 and Kingsguard Man #12 are gonna get cut out of the show. I think he framed it in that goofy way on purpose to hide how annoyed he is but you can see where the real annoyance lies - the changes to Helaena, losing one of his grisly death scenes, and being willfully mislead about potential changes to the plot. I think a lot of people missed those points but EYE am not a goofy ass like those people and I can guarantee you that Condal and HBO got the point too.

Of course, I do think he is also irked about Maelor and Ser Rickard's scenes being cut out. He wrote a long ass, highly meticulous, near unadaptable work, and I think when he handed the IP over he assumed he was giving it to people who would rise to the challenge and only make cuts when absolutely necessary. And that just clearly hasn't happened. Incredibly important characters get cut, main characters get their plots wildly changed for no reason, and people get personality transplants on a near constant basis for no other reason than D&D and Condal thought it would look cooler. I think if there was more dedication to keeping him in the loop and keeping true to the story, he wouldn't have bitched so much. But Hess is on record saying she doesn't feel loyal to the story and at a certain point, you reach your breaking point there and I think he has finally reached his. AND GOOD FOR HIM. LET THAT OLD MAN GO APESHIT THEY'VE COMPLETLEY FUCKED HIS WORLD UP!!!

[naetaesarya]

The "human heart in conflict with itself"

More often than not, when I see or experience an exchange with somebody arguing that Jon and Dany are "more interesting" as enemies/"rivals", that person ends up being a Jonsa.

For instance, this is a classic view:

It's funny how many who would identify themselves as a Jonsa fan would say the same of Jonerys: "more interesting" as enemies, as "rivals", as antagonists. No "stale bread conflictless romance" for Jonsas!... Unless it's Jonsa, that is. These are the same people saying Jon will come back hyper fixated on protecting Sansa, reset his personal preferences and characteristics, will play "Beast" to Sansa's "Beauty", the "Prince Eric" to Sansa's "Ariel", and will literally manifest Sansa's happily ever after (or Sansa must sadly and gracefully let go of it and her love Jon as a selfless sacrifice for the independence of the North...) Jonsa fantasies aside, what exactly makes an antagonistic relationship between two strangers "interesting"? What dynamic exists here? It's just, at its most passionate, hate. There's no contrasting emotion, no push and pull, no exchange with another set of feelings. It's just one thing -- bad. Even if Jon found out he and Ramsay were blood related, I don't think Jon is going to have much of an inner conflict over killing the guy. This is the only "humanity" Jonsas allow Jon where Dany is concerned (a bit of shame of kinslaying), which I think is telling. More telling still is how Jonsas want Jon to deal with this and Dany: to sexually exploit, use, abuse, deceive Dany before deciding to coldly kill & dispose of her. And this is one of their leading theories. Most, if not all, of their theories depend on Dany going dark/"mad" -- they seem to involve more of Dany than Sansa. Sansa's chapters have both positive and negative contexts when 'sweet' is used but who's going around claiming how this means Sansa will be betrayed by a lover and killed by his hand? Yet, for Dany, this means Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

The word 'shadow' has been used 657 times in ASOIAF throughout all POVs and chapters -- it has been used descriptively, to convey mystery, uncertainty, it can be physical blocked light or a metaphor. In Jon's case, it's often used in terms of his mysterious/uncertain/unknown identity. But who cares? When it comes to Dany, it now means betrayal and ulterior motive and Pol!Jon. Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa. Sansa throws a feast for the nobles with a lemon cake "just for her" while famine spreads across the country? Queen. Dany feels hungry in the middle of nowhere, malnourished, and feverish? And the wolf cry didn't stop her from being hungry? She's Aerys come again. That's why it'll be a-ok when Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

But seriously, I don't have any expectation that Jon/Dany would be without conflict, especially in ASOIAF because it's GRRM and things are messy. However, ASOIAF's relationships are always full of emotion, though, and that's what I'd expect and really love to read. Lots and lots of emotions, conflicting, confusing, surprising, fun fun emotions. Jon and Dany are both very young and they're both pretty scarred with one currently dead. And you know, maybe it's Dany who'd have the issue with Jon rather than Jon clutching his pearls at Dany because what if a child does die due to Jon's actions/commands or Jon is pushed to execute a wildling hostage? Yeah? What if it's Dany clutching pearls and Jon telling her to deal with it. And then they go into the back and Maybe maybe that's what we'll see one day, hey. I need to get sober.

[istumpysk]

We always question that when Jon fell in love with Dany in show. I have another confusion since when Tyrion fell in love with Dany. And if he was so in love with Dany why he was suggesting to Sansa that they should remain married.

Beats me!

His relationship with Daenerys on the show never felt authentic to me, and like you said, it often contradicted the dynamics between him and Sansa.

This is the problem you create when you allocate parts of Sansa's storyline (the Jon romance, and the Tyrion love triangle) to Daenerys, while also needing to acknowledge the established history between Sansa and Tyrion.

That half-baked, last-minute insertion was complete nonsense. I'll eat rocks the day George turns his beloved Tyrion into an obedient lapdog, who is in love with his unhinged master. That would just make him another Jorah or Barristan, and what's the point of that? It would be redundant, and his perspective wouldn't bring anything new to the table.

Tyrion is the guy who mocked the idea of a savior.

Other slaves insisted that the guards were lying, that Daenerys Targaryen would never make peace with slavers. Mhysa, they called her. Someone told him that meant Mother. Soon the silver queen would come forth from her city, smash the Yunkai'i, and break their chains, they whispered to one another. And then she'll bake us all a lemon pie and kiss our widdle wounds and make them better, the dwarf thought. He had no faith in royal rescues. - Tyrion X, ADWD

Tyrion is the guy who became deeply concerned when he heard a red priest preaching her gospel.

Shouts erupted from the crowd. Women were weeping and men were shaking their fists. I have a bad feeling about this. […] Haldon Halfmaester had spoken of using the red priest to Young Griff's advantage, Tyrion recalled. Now that he had seen and heard the man himself, that struck him as a very bad idea. He hoped that Griff had better sense. Some allies are more dangerous than enemies. - Tyrion VII, ADWD

Tyrion is the guy who can recognize the psychology, fear, conditioning, and absence of alternative options that lead to a slave wanting to remain in bondage.

"Ghazdor's collar," the old man boasted. "Known him since we was born. I'm almost like a brother to him. Slaves like you, sweepings out of Astapor and Yunkai, you whine about being free, but I wouldn't give the dragon queen my collar if she offered to suck my cock for it. Man has the right master, that's better." Tyrion did not dispute him. The most insidious thing about bondage was how easy it was to grow accustomed to it. - Tyrion XI, ADWD

Tyrion is the guy with firsthand experience of slave owners infantilizing their slaves, to reinforce paternalistic authority and reliance.

"Bold Yollo. Bright Penny. You are the property of the noble and valorous Yezzan zo Qaggaz, scholar and warrior, revered amongst the Wise Masters of Yunkai. Count yourselves fortunate, for Yezzan is a kindly and benevolent master. Think of him as you would your father." […] "Your father loves his special treasures best of all, and he will cherish you," the overseer was saying. "And me, think of me as you would the nurse who cared for you when you were small. Nurse is what all my children call me." - Tyrion X, ADWD

x

"Let them come. In me they shall find a sterner foe than Cleon. I would sooner perish fighting than return my children to bondage." - Daenerys IV, ADWD

Despite my low opinion of him, I don't believe he's capable of being swept up by Daenerys.

Daenerys isn't his type, Sansa is. Tysha is. Shae is. Sex workers are. Penny would be, if he was sexually attracted to her. He seeks relationships where he can exert control, foster dependency, and provide protection and care.

Daenerys is too much like his sister.

[rise-my-angel]

Because I love salt, what do you find to be the most annoying lines of so-called evidence or foreshadowing for ships you hate? For me it’s hard to pick just one but Jon saying Sansa looked radiant is up there for me because the idea that Jon had a crush on Sansa in the first book or before is so much worse than the thought of them meeting again and then developing feelings (which I still hate, but it’s just not as bad). It’s super normal for people to think their siblings look nice. Arya’s POV chapters also remark that Sansa is beautiful. Ashford theory is annoying because it was originally about the hound and Sansa (also hate this ship but the fans are a million times more tolerable). I also roll my eyes when fans insist that the bride of fire line foreshadows Dany marrying Jon (and I even LIKE that ship but only in an AU in my head where Lyanna is Jon’s mom but Rhaegar is NOT the father)

"Because I love salt"

You have come to the right place as this is an accurate real life photo of me running this blog:

Thats a good one I hate though, multiple siblings and family members in this series all compliment one another. Even characters with bad relationships compliment each other. In the books, Arya recalls that her father calls her pretty, which only Jon ever also called her. Does that mean Ned had romantic feelings for Arya? Or Lyanna for that matter? No of course not. Thinking someone in terms of beauty is zero indicator of attraction in any way.

Also its even funnier with Jonsas because Sansa herself notes that Arya looks just like Jon, and then on multiple occasions notes that she thinks Arya is ugly. So, its even less compelling.

In the show Tyrion compliments Cersei's beauty all the time and we know there is nothing to it. It's reading into something that isn't there beacuse if they ignore the way beauty is used in this series as a common compliment towards other highborns, then its a really simple box to check on really stock symptoms of attraction. (I also dont really enjoy Sansan but it is funny how they just stay in their circle and mind their business like they somehow are winning based on being not fucking annoying alone).

I'm gonna rapid fire for Jon here because pretty much every single ship he has is backed by the worst evidence known to man.

The idea that Jon never thinks about Sansa because he loves her the most is dumb and not how we know Jon works. He holds back what he says not what he thinks. He thinks of Sansa the least because despite being his sister, she treated him like shit because she looks down on him for being a bastard. Jon cares about her, but not anywhere near how he cares about his other siblings who have clearly shown him love and respect.

The worst of Jon and Arya is a very very old outline that grrm scrapped. Its an outline that wasnt used and most of it isnt canon so it is literally a piece of non evidence for a ship that is disgusting. (Both Jonsa and Jonrya make Jons good older brother behavior towards his sisters look predatory and the shippers are all literally too blind to realize it)

Jon and Dany have literally nothing to back that up, because they are staged as moral oppositions to one another, dont know the other exists, and the idea that the motif of ice and fire will be about the coming together of romance is antithetical to everything grrm has established about the themes of his story. They are so far from being a ship that literally the ONLY thing they have to support it is the show and thats an absolute joke (see my every post that got me blocked by jonerys stans for more detail)

Ygritte is a rapist, so I accept literally zero "evidence" on that ones validity.

I also hate the "the actors have chemistry" argument to support really bad ships, because some actors having chemistry doesnt equal good romance, it equals good on screen dynamics in its own unique way. Like Tywin and Arya in season 2 have GREAT chemistry, but I don't need to explain why shipping that is creepy. Catelyn and Jaime have great chemistry, but it doesn't mean anything was actually there which could've worked.

Like shipping is fine, but so many people just INSIST it is canon or meant to be instead of something fun to think about. I joke ship about Stannis and Davos because its fun but I'm not over here arguing that people who don't ship it are "ignoring the text in front of them deliberately".

Also honestly, its really funny to me that you had to specify you'd only like that ship if they weren't related. Big oof on that one. Jonerys stans hate the idea they couldn't be related because they somehow think Dany being his AUNT isn't at all creepy. Like, Dany is related to Jon the way Jon thinks hes related to his MOTHER. There is no capability of romance or attraction there, that's crazy.

People who are biologically related but don't know it, 99% of the time are in fact, still not accidentally attracted to each other because that's biological survival instinct. Anti inbreeding protocol. But they think because DANY was raised to think her families blood superiority driven incest is fine, that somehow means JON would think its fine. Jonsas have no argument for that they just have to pray desperately that Jon would want to fuck his little sister despite how much it makes him look like a predator.

I'm sorry, I hope you have water on hand to wash down all this goddamn salt I just threw at you all at once.

Really, it isn't individual lines that irk me, its the overall tendencies of these ships to put more emphasis on things that don't even exist to justify something they don't even realize WHY people think it's creepy. I don't hate a lot of ships, just...all pro incest ones, and ones that promote predatory/rapist behaviors. Which is why I don't ship much in this series.

We're probably not meant to ship many people in this series if I in any way understand even a modicum of why grrm writes the lack of romance the way he does.

[snowblack-charcoalwhite]

Do you think that HotD creators are trying to recreate certain moments, quotes and even characters from GoT? I've seen this mentioned many times and I cannot say I disagree in general . For example, Daenerys imagery through Rhaenyra, Daemon being introduced in a Jaime Lannister style, sitting on the throne, too cool for the rules... Then smallfolk riots in KL with Helaena and Alicent in Sansa's role, certain one liners, the dagger and the prophecy ... There are many examples, really. I also saw a great analysis here about which characters (don't remember the creator now) from GoT they're trying to revive, e. g. Ned Stark with Viserys, Jon Snow with Jace, Dany with Rhaenyra, Jaime with Daemon, Littlefinger with Otto... I don't think these people are wrong, there is definitely certain aspirations from hotd writes to try and imitate some aspects of GOT because they see it as a recipe for success, and that's not necessarily a bad thing but is something they need to be careful with. The Dance should be be a whole new and different story and not a bunch of callbacks and references to another show. Anyway, have you noticed this or you disagree? Are there storylines and characters in hotd that seem to be types we already seen in GoT (some of the most mentioned are Daemon-Jaime, Rhaenyra - Dany Otto - Littlefinger, Larys - Varys, Aegon - Robert and Joffrey, Aemond - Ramsay (especially if they go with book accurate version from s2 onward). I disagree with most of these comparisons and I believe they are more fan inventions than necessarily something that the writers wanted to convey, but there are reasons for these parallels and I would like to hear what do you think.

Love your blog btw.

Hello! Thank you for the ask - and for the compliment:) And my apologies for the delay with answering.

In my opinion, HotD is definitely making callbacks (and a lot of them) to GoT - and the main reason for that is, as you said yourself, their reliance on the fame (and overall success - even taking into account the significant decrease in quality in later seasons) of the original show. And they are not alone in this: today a lot of ambitious media projects are sequels, prequels, remakes etc. of some successful, or even iconic, media created in the past years. I am definitely not against this on principle: for me the problems begin when a project is clearly being designed to either evoke a feeling of nostalgia or simply milk the popularity of the original media while lacking the actual quality itself.

As for the Rhaenyra - Daenerys parallel, I think that HotD is definitely going there intentionally in their desire to "atone" in some way for the way the latter was treated in season 8 of GoT after getting tons of fanhate for making a villain out of a female character (and not realizing that at least half of the complaints were about how poorly it was done and not even about the fact itself). And this is how we got a Rhaenyra who can't even order Vaemond's execution herself.

As for the other parallels - well, the imagination can run wild there. IMO Otto resembles Littlefinger just with the general scheming thing (he has always seemed more Tywin Lannister-ish to me) - and ASOIAF world definitely doesn't lack schemers. Aemond and Ramsay? Once again, the similarities are extremely superficial, as in both of them committing acts of cruelty - but Aemond wasn't a sadist, for starters, and, once again, there are A LOT of cruel characters doing cruel things in that universe. Aegon - Joffrey comparison doesn't work for me either (I addressed it in one of my earlier posts). The most ridiculous one, as I see it, is the Ned Stark - Viserys one. Comparing a man whose life was basically all about making hard decisions (which he did based on what he deemed to be right and honorable) to one who never had the guts to make even one and allowed his selfishness, weakness and self-pity to guide him which basically led to civil war that laid the foundation for the fall of his house? Nice try, guys.

Are the showrunners going for all the above mentioned parallels intentionally though? It seems to be the case with Aegon if we go by their own words; it might be the case with the rest of them judging by some of the official HBO Instagram stuff dropped earlier this week. Although, between HBO SM accounts messing up Vhagar's gender and posting a photo of Beyonce in all-black outfit with a caption along the lines of "Queen Bee has chosen the side", I don't even know what kind of professionals even run these accounts anymore.

Once again, thank you for the interesting ask, and all the best to you!

[jackoshadows]

@nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma 

I didn’t want to derail or hijack your Dany post, so decided to make a separate post to what I think is an interesting discussion. 

As I have mentioned in some of my earlier posts, I find Sansa to be a confusing mess mainly because the character herself does not introspect, does not think, does not connect dots, does not proactively try to figure things out.

Which is why it’s doubly frustrating that the same hypocrites who are critiquing Daenerys and Jon for their leadership will write praises of Sansa’s intelligence and political acumen when she is the least political of her peers and hardly ever engages in critical thinking.

And honestly, there’s only so much that age can be used as an excuse considering these are characters in a fantasy world where a 10 year old has been elected Lord Commander, teenagers rule as Kings and Queens and marry young. Dany and Jon have decided that they want to be leaders and so I judge them based on their actions and, despite their age, they have done a far better job than the likes of Cersei, Jaime, Robert, Ned, Cat etc. IMO.

One of the opinions I very much disagree with is the notion that Ned’s warning to Sansa or what Maester Coleman tells Sansa is vague and not understandable when, for me as reader, they come across as pretty succinct and clear in their intention. There’s also the fact that these warnings do not happen in a vacuum, there is always context for a character to put 2 and 2 together to come up with 4.

Here's Ned telling Sansa that it's dangerous for the Starks in KL

Father’s mouth twitched strangely. “Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

“I am looking for a fast trading galley to take you home. These days, the sea is safer than the kingsroad. You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards … and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service. But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans. We’ll talk again tomorrow.” - Eddard, AGoT

To then add context to everything Ned tells her, Sansa herself is witness to Cersei ordering her beloved pet wolf dead, Joffrey's sadistic mauling of Mycah and knowing what Jaime did to Stark men. It's clear to me that it's not that Sansa did not understand Ned's warning about the Lannisters, it’s that she preferred to ignore it in favor of wanting to stay in KL, marry Joffrey and become queen because she imagined herself to be in love with him. It's ignorant self interest, where she deliberately refuses to see the bigger picture of what is happening around her despite knowing all the facts.

Let us take the SweetRobin situation in book 5. Keep in mind that the Maester here is Westeros' version of a physician. So this is a doctor - an expert in someone’s health - talking to Sansa. Surely Sansa should start with the presumption that this man knows more about a person’s health than either she or Littlefinger does, right? When I go to a doctor, I don’t have to be a medical expert in order to take the doctor’s advice right? And we don’t get any of Sansa’s thoughts on Coleman’s competence as a doctor.

When Jon Snow as Lord Commander implements  Jeor Mormont’s defense strategy for rebuilding the Wall it’s because he trusts in Mormont’s experience and knowledge. As much as Jon was opposed to Bowen Marsh’s bigotry, he appreciated Marsh’s skillsets as a steward.

And while Maester Coleman is indeed incompetent and too scared of authority he does care about helping his patients. It’s a sad parallel that Coleman tried to save Jon Arryn in KL (from LF and Lysa’s poisoning ) and failed and now he will fail to save the son  as well. Recall that Pycelle was of the opinion that Coleman could have saved Jon Arryn and that’s why he kicked him out of KL

Tyrion tsked at him. “I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn’s own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died.”    

“A falsehood! Yes,” he whimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.”

The old man wept. “Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her” - Tyrion, ACoK

Coming back to Coleman and Sansa, from their conversation it's clear that Sansa ignores the doctor's warnings about SweetRobin's health because she trusts Littlefinger to know better that the politics of their situation is more important than SR's health. It’s a case of Sansa putting LF’s guidance and advice above the Maester’s.

Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns” - Alayne, AFfC

Now there can be an entire separate discussion on why Sansa is doing this given everything she knows about Petyr Baelish so far - Lysa’s confession about Jon Arryn’s death, LF being the last person she knows had Jeyne Poole, his role in the murder of Joffrey and framing Tyrion etc. Given that Sansa never introspects on all this we have to assume she is once again deliberately ignoring the truths right in front of her for whatever reason.

This is also why it’s mind boggling when this fandom takes away Arya’s critical thinking skills to prop Sansa up as the smart Stark. At 9, Arya is able to rightly guess that Cersei would harm Nymeria for what she did to Joffrey and drives her away.

Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ’shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.” - Arya, AGoT 

When Jaqen has Weese mauled by his dog, Arya is able to connect the dots and deduct that the supernatural is involved. Again, remember she is only 9/10 here.

She had been avoiding the Lorathi since Weese’s death. Chiswyck had been easy,  anyone could push a man off the wallwalk, but Weese had raised that  ugly spotted dog from a pup, and only some dark magic could have turned  the animal against him. Yoren found Jaqen in a black cell, the same as Rorge and Biter, she remembered. Jaqen did something horrible and Yoren knew, that’s why he kept him in chains. If the Lorathi was a wizard, Rorge and Biter could be demons he called up from some hell, not men at all  - Arya, ACoK

So is Sansa gleefully and maliciously having SR poisoned? No. Does Sansa care for SR's wellbeing here? Also no.

I write about how SR is most probably suffering from epileptic seizures in this post and the Maester's solution for this is to keep him as calm as possible. Excitement leads to shaking and seizures, which requires the Maester to dose the child with more SweetSleep, dangerous in the long term. For Sansa however, it is important that SweetRobin show up in front of the lords looking normal - even though the boy has a disabling condition.

So the doctor tells Sansa that to keep SR calm, he would dose him with the less dangerous milk of poppy. Sansa refuses because appearances are more important.

“Good. That is good.” His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. “This descent… my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered.” “The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn.” Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert’s frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. I wish he were here. He would know what to do. - Alayne, AFfC

No doubt the Maester is scared of LF (And is most probably going to be framed for SR's death by LF), and yet he perseveres to make Sansa understand that it's these feasts/events that's making SR have seizures requiring the sweetsleep.

“Give his lordship a cup of sweetmilk,” she told the maester. “That will stop him from shaking on the journey down.”

“He had a cup not three days past,” Colemon objected.

“And wanted another last night, which you refused him.”

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . .”

“Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs.”

I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep… you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose? I must speak to the Lord Protector. This feast… is that wise, I wonder, after the strain of the descent? Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise… music. Music frightens him”

“Lord Nestor will have no singers at the feast, only flutes and fiddles for the dancing.” What would she do when the music began to play? It was a vexing question, to which her heart and head gave different answers. Sansa loved to dance, but Alayne… “Just give him a cup of the sweetmilk before we go, and another at the feast, and there should be no trouble.” - Alayne, AFfC

Does the Maester explain the science behind how the drug works to Sansa? No. However, I think he makes it clear enough that the drug stays in the flesh and is dangerous to a person’s health.

And again, we know that Sansa understands what the Maester is telling her regarding the SweetSleep -

“Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.”

“You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns” - Alayne, AFfC

Then at the end of this same chapter, Littlefinger has a monologue where he tells her why they are doing what they are doing.

He turned her hand over and lightly kissed her wrist. “So tell me, sweetling—why is Harry the Heir?”

Her eyes widened. “He is not Lady Waynwood’s heir. He’s Robert’s heir. If Robert were to die . . .”

Petyr arched an eyebrow. “When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn’s bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. - Alayne, AFfC

This then leads to the sample TWoW chapter where Sansa as Alayne flirts with Harry the Heir so that they can get married.

So if Sansa expects SweetRobin to live long enough to marry, then why is she seducing Harry for him to offer to marry her when that depends on SweetRobin’s death?!

Which is why the conversation between Robert and Sansa is all sorts of ridiculous because even a sickly little 8 year old SR knows that Harry’s importance in all this depends on his death, Littlefinger has explained to her very clearly that SweetRobin will die and yet Sansa is talking about how his future wife will like his hair?!

If SR is going to live long enough to marry, than why is Sansa trying to marry Harry?

“I hate that Harry,” Sweetrobin said when she was gone. “He calls me  cousin, but he’s just waiting for me to die so he can take the Eyrie. He  thinks I don’t know, but I do.”

“Your lordship should not believe such nonsense,” Alayne said. “I’m sure Ser Harrold loves you well.” And if the gods are good, he will love me too. Her tummy gave a little flutter.

“He doesn’t,” Lord Robert insisted. “He wants my father’s castle, that’s all, so he pretends.”

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long  enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will  love about him.- Alayne, TWoW

This is why context is important and the Maester’s conversation does not exist in a vacuum. LF has told Sansa that SR needs to die for their plan to work and WILL die, SweetRobin has told her that Harry is waiting for him to die to get the Vale and the Maester has warned her that giving SR high doses of the drug is dangerous. After all this, how is Sansa going to be surprised by his death? That would be like being surprised when told that 2+2=4.

Six books in and Sansa remains a character who continues to ignore the truths in front of her for selfish reasons. That’s been a consistent character trait for her, from book one to her first chapter in book 6.

So is Sansa actively colluding with LF’s gradual medical poisoning of her little cousin in order for Harry to become the Lord of the Vale? Surely, in the back of her mind she must be aware of what is happening? However, it’s an unpleasant truth, one she does not want to acknowledge and chooses to ignore because it’s more important for her that LF’s plans to get Winterfell for her succeeds.

Does she care for her little cousin’s well being? No. Despite the Maester repeatedly telling her that the drug is dangerous to his health, she thinks the politics are more important.  

Remember in Sansa’s very first POV chapter with Arya and Mycah playing at the Trident and Joffrey showcases himself to be a sadistic ass?

Sansa was shrieking, “No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you’re spoiling it,” - Sansa I, AGoT

That’s her primary character trait. She is written as a character who does not want the unpleasant truths to spoil her personal narratives of Joffrey being a good person or Arya being responsible for Lady’s death or Cersei knowing better than her father or that SweetRobin is going to live long enough to marry a wife who will love his hair.

So we can either read Sansa as someone who is incredibly dense, who despite being presented with all the facts before her, still does not understand SweetRobin’s fate - when even 8 year old SweetRobin knows that Harry is just waiting for him to die. Or we can read her as someone who selfishly ignores the truth in front of her because it’s so unsavory and ‘spoils’ her idea of what she thinks is good and right and moral. In that, she knows that SR has to die and will die and yet keeps pretending that he’s going to be fine.

And both of these interpretations are in stark contrast with how Sansa is generally viewed in this fandom as being the smartest, most intelligent, most compassionate, idealistic ‘embodiment of hope’. She’s none of these things.

[lemonhemlock]

I'm a 'Martin won't ever publish another ASOIAF book' truther but in addition to King Bran being profoundly idiotic, Martin has major structural issues that are now too 'big' to 'fix' imo. Namely, the ages of the characters are ridiculous and are all wrong for where their arcs need to go. The characters on the show were aged up and even the younger ones grew up on screen so Bran and Sansa and Arya were at least into late teens/adulthood at the end of the show - one is 13 and other is currently 11 and Bran is like, what, 8 in books? sksksksksk Just absolutely disastrous.

The characters should have been in their mid to late teens at the start of AGOT, at minimum. Especially because Martin essentially treated them, and has them act, like adults. I'm sorry, but I don't think that man has any understanding between the mental and physical developmental differences between, say, a 14 year old girl and a 17 year old girl. Every character appears and acts like they are anywhere from 3 to 5 years older than they are.

Also, the POV structure, while interesting, has also been disastrous in actually getting the story moving because certain characters have to be in certain places for things to happen while others are just sitting around killing time.

Hmmm, I don't really agree about the POV structure. It functioned fine for three books and offered compelling court drama, battles, magical elements and intriguing plot-twists. AGOT / ACOK / ASOS are pretty well paced and I've even seen someone making the case that the series could even have ended in that point and would have been one of the best fictional fantasy experiments. I found myself agreeing and disagreeing. I think the ASOS ending would have still distinguished ASOIAF from other fantasy series in its toppling of the good-guys-win-everything type of wrap-up, but it would be way less ambitious than what GRRM ended up pursuing.

The pacing problems came about with AFFC/ADWD. And I'm not one to talk here, because I'm an AFFC truther and it's always been my favourite of the series, so my two cents on this is that Dany's Slaver's Bay plotline is too damn long. Tyrion is also taking too damn long to get to her. It's a drag. In the book she is supposed to solve the Quaithe riddle,* escape Vaes Dothrak, get herself an army + navy, make the decision to leave Slaver's Bay AND sail to Westeros, so that in TWOW she can fight Young Gryff, face-off the Others, become a mask-off tyrant AND get deposed? It's a lot.

I honestly think he should just give up the 7 book compartmentation, admit defeat and just add another damn book to the series to get Dany to Westeros and fit in his fAegon plotline. It's not like he doesn't have the pages. No one's gonna care if there are 8 books instead of magic no 7. But my guess is that he's hung up over some decisions he's made in the past and kept trying to make the gargantuan plot fit inside this neat box he envisioned - 7 books, King Bran, Caesar!Jon etc. It would explain why he tried a time skip between ASOS and AFFC and had to scrap it - it would make more sense for the Stark children to be older. But he characterized himself as a gardener-style writing who doesn't plan everything in advance and lets the story grow organically. In that case, he should make allowances if the story grew in a direction he did not initially predict and make the required changes! Maybe King Bran made sense when he first wrote the initial three-book outline, but that was a long time ago & many other plot points changed.

My advice is to just stop trying to make the plot fit the previous designs, stay true to the way the characters evolved and respect the themes you've painstakingly developed over the course of nearly 30 years. Otherwise what's the point? If your original ending doesn't fit anymore, think of another ending ffs. The show is irrelevant at this point, so what if the endgame will be different? IDK, I'd be thinking that this is my life's work and I have every right to do it justice. Perhaps that's what he's thinking too and why it's taking him so long.

I agree that the ages of the characters are ridiculous, but if a time skip really, really can't fit anywhere, it's better to compromise on the age issue and leave off with a teen monarch than it would be to impose a surveillance state in Westeros as the solution with all-seeing, all-knowing Bran. That's a starkly dystopic ending, if you ask me.

Not to mention that it clashes directly with the end of magic - how is Bran supposed to be the Tree of Sauron if there's no magic anymore and everything goes back to normal? On what basis does he even get to be king at all if he's just a regular boy? How will he even survive being pulled out of the weirwood net if magic leaves the realm of men?

*“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” JFC, if Dany has to get to Asshai, I will fucking scream.

[hamliet]

Rereading Fire & Blood

And random commentary I took while reading. First read it when it came out and read it a lot more closely this time.

Family Tragedies

The entire story is about loving families falling apart because they fail their kids. Aegon and Aenys. Visenya and Maegor. Alyssa and Rhaena and Aegon. Rhaena and Aerea. Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and... all of their kids? Especially Saera, Daella, and Gael. Alicent and all four of her kids.

Alicent really should have learned from Jaehaerys' death, because it foreshadowed her own. Jaehaerys was a good king but a terrible father, and he dies in the end thinking Alicent is Saera, the daughter he mistreated possibly more than any other child of his, come to make amends and forgive him. Alicent dies having lost all her children, wishing she'd prioritized her kids instead of prioritizing the throne for her kids. It's perfect tragedy.

Foreshadowing for ASOIAF

Princess Daenerys, the eldest child, the loving, compassionate, kind princess who cares for her little siblings, dying of the Shivers (aka cold: the disease) seems like pretty Obvious Foreshadowing Is Obvious that Dany will sacrifice herself against the Others, the literal embodiments of ice.

During the Dance of the Dragons, there're also some parallels between other characters in the Dance and those in the main saga. Again, these are not 1=1 parallels. The character's fates are not definite exact matches for where the main saga is going. But there is definitely some foreshadowing.

Baela is clearly Arya in that she's a kickass queen. She also marries Alyn Velaryon, a legitimized bastard. Wouldn't be surprised again if there's romance between Gendry and Arya at some point. There already kinda is.

Rhaena and Jeyne Arryn are both Sansa, right down to the Vale locale.

Sam Tarly is a girl this time who married her first husband's son for love and is thus accused of incest and there's a clear connection to our Samwell Tarly and his love for Gilly, who was subjected to incest. Again. Not a 1=1, just general ideas.

Sara Snow and Jacaerys, with the Pact of Ice and Fire, are clearly foreshadowing for Lyanna and Rhaegar and Jon and Dany, even if it's left very vague. Again, foreshadowing: rarely a 1=1!

The Red Kraken is Euron, and I do expect that much like the Red Kraken is destroyed by his own "prizes" because he doesn't see his wives as humans, Euron will probably destroyed by accomplishing his goals.

Cregan Stark and Aegon III remind me of Bran, in that George has said Bran gets the throne, but... it's probably more in terms of helping create the new world post-wars, and done in terms of delegating up power rather than like, lording it all for himself.

Daeron reminds me of f!Aegon because he's generally well-liked and seems like a good kid. However, he goes down in a city of flames that burns because of the Dancing of the Dragons--the one place they actually dance--which I'm pretty sure is Young Griff's fate. Plus, the sheer amount of times it was stressed that Tessarion is an unusually blue-colored dragon kinda reminds me of how Young Griff disguises himself by dying his hair blue.

Alys Rivers reminds me of Melisandre in that both are much-older powerful witches who have royal children although Alys's isn't a shadow thank the seven. Still, she works some kind of strange magic...

Biblical Allusions

Aegon's dynamic with his sister-wives reminds me a lot of the biblical Jacob and how he married Leah out of duty and Rachel out of desire (well, was tricked into it, but the same dynamic). Like Rhaenys, Rachel is beloved and dies young, but leaves behind a beloved son who is favored by the father.

Jaehaerys reminds me an awful lot of David from the Bible. Not saying in any way that there's a 1=1 intended retelling because there isn't, but there's definitely inspiration.

Maegor the Cruel dies impaled upon the throne's sword and the young nephews he tormented take over. Saul died falling on his own sword and David takes over; David is, like Jaehaerys, the youngest and so unexpected, good-looking, and ends up largely good at ruling. His tragic flaw is his misogyny even if it's not like, the obvious kind, and his terrible parenting despite truly loving his children. Also, Jaehaerys, like David, has a lot of kids and a lot of tragedy with said kids. 

But wait: there's more! Jaehaerys is dying and that's how Alicent's introduced at court. She cares for him on his deathbed. In the Bible when David's dying, a girl named Abishag comes to court and cares for him on his deathbed. The Bible notes he doesn't sleep with her, but there are still rumors, much like with Alicent.

Anyways after a lot of brouhaha where Solomon is the heir but Solomon's older brother Adonijah tries to take the throne from Solomon, and there's a lot of split in the kingdom before David intervenes with like his last breath, David dies. Solomon takes the throne.

Then Adonijah asks for Abishag as his wife! And Solomon freaks the fuck out! Because asking for a carer of the former king is like asking for the throne (in the olden days of the Near East, it was practice to marry the previous king's wives if you conquer a land); he knows it's a ploy to get it, and also that Adonijah is subtly threatening him. He kills Adonijah for it.

Sadly in this case Otto convinces Viserys to marry Alicent which is. Indeed. a plot for the throne, basically like "what if" of the Abishag story.

There's also stuff where David's family is prophesized to bring the Messiah.

Oh and Solomon's wife leads him astray and as a consequence his son gets the kingdom split in half. Sounds a little familiar to Viserys and what would happen to his kids.

If we're going here why not point out Keeping Up With David's Family, aka the books of Samuel, also include brother-sister incest, kinslaying, and rebellions. Somehow this stuff is fine for Sunday school.

Alchemy in Fire & Blood

There are a lot of alchemical references starting with Aegon's conquering. "On the seventh day, a cloud of ravens burst forth from the towers of Dragonstone" makes me think of this image:

The overall idea is that this starts the alchemical process, which will end in the prophesized Azor Ahai I suppose.

Maegor the Cruel deliberately casts aside the golden crown and wears one made of iron instead, to show his appetite for violence, because iron is ruled by Mars in alchemy, and Mars is the god of war; hence, it signifies violence.

It definitely seems like Visenya did some sort of dark magic to keep him from dying and it rendered him impotent. Kind of reverse alchemy.

Tyanna the alchemist is terrifying.

Jaehaerys riding a bronze dragon and Alysanne riding Silverwing, plus their eldest brother riding Quicksilver... kind of like an early version of what could have been the philosopher's stone, where the final three "elevated" metals are mercury/quicksilver, silver, and gold. But instead of gold, it's bronze, showing that we're nowhere near completion.

During the Dance of the Dragons: Sunfyre and Moondancer fight. Moondancer is green in color and tears parts of Sunfyre out. Reminds me of this classic alchemical image:

Of course, the sun and moon are also major symbols in alchemy. The sun is associated with the masculine; the moon, femininity. This seems relevant because, well, y'know, the entire Dance of the Dragons is founded on sexist principles. Okay, also on incompetence. But also sexism.

Moondancer is ridden by a woman (Baela). Sunfyre is ridden by Aegon (a man). The moon (woman) dies first, much like Rhaenyra. However, the sun (man) dies later of the injuries dealt to him by the moon/Baela, much like Aegon will die because of this war. The female rider, though, still very much a child in some ways, (Baela) lives a long, good life, and her legacy continues while the man's dies. Rhaenyra's line continues on, and she's the ancestor of so many of our characters in the main saga: Stannis, Robert, Renly, Arianne, Quentyn, Doran, Daenerys, f!Aegon, Jon, Varys most likely, and more.

[esther-dot]

If I remember correctly there was a scene where Missandei was taking care of an injured Greyworm. She kissed him as he told something about being scared to not see her again. Then also there was scene about Missandei saying goodbye to GW saying same line which was told by Jon to Dany. Compare these scenes to similar Jonerys ones where the latter lacks warmth. I don't know if it was deliberate or not. What do you think?

I can't find a gifset of it at the moment, but yes, Missandei (who is alive and well on Naath, thank you very much!) does sit by Greyworm when he is injured. Jonsas compared/contrasted Greyworm/Missandei with Jonerys and Jonsa a lot because they had so many similar scenes, but unfortunately, I'm not finding all those posts rn. Although, I have to point out @ladyandtheghost 's parallel in which she argued that just as Greyworm declared Missandei his weakness, Sansa was Jon's ( this post ) -- all the way back in 2017. Everyone who noticed the parallels was quite frustrated with how the show failed to offer adequate payoff for them, but seeing as Sansa was the trigger that got Jon to stabbity stab Dany aka her treason for love, I think the Greyworm x Missandei and Jonsas parallels were part of how D&D were laying the groundwork for the finale from s6 on. As pathetic as the the end product was, there were a few throughlines.

As for the Jonerys parallels...as you point out, the similar scenes make Jonerys look horrible. I assume they were actually meant to be contrasted with a couple that truly knew and loved each other which is why they paled in comparison. Greyworm and Missandei obviously had a lot more time to develop a dynamic which makes their love far, far more compelling (the actors are gorgeous and talented which helped too!), but in s7-8 there were a number of relationships that we can contrast jonerys with and inevitably, D&D put more time and effort into the side relationships than the “point of the series” (as everyone told us JonDany was). Since they were also running a storyline about protecting Sansa being more important to Jon than his own life or Dany's, about jon's love for Sansa being more important to him than his honor and duty, I have a hard time swallowing that they even intended Jonerys to be seen as an epic romance.

Often people blame the actors for the failure to make the relationship work (which is a pretty universally accepted sentiment, ), apparently Kit was having personal struggles at the time which fans have pointed to as an explanation for his poor acting. But he delivered in other dynamics, his face and eyes were alive in s7 when interacting with Gendry and Tormund, so I don't think that was the issue. I pointed out how the writing of Jonerys created no potential to make it compelling as D&D carefully included the fact that there was no obstacle to their relationship back in s7, so I have a few different explanations.

D&D were wanting to end the show, HBO/Martin wanted more seasons, so s6- s7 could have been written to allow for a quick closeout, or room to grow certain strorylines into 2 more seasons worth of content. If they didn't know if they'd have 8 or 16+ episodes to wrap things up, maybe they were trying to leave different paths open hence some odd writing.

Perhaps Jonerys was fan service, and they didn't want to do it but did it at HBO's behest or whatever so they didn't put in the effort that Greyworm/Missandei got, or Sam/Gilly, or even Gendry and Arya who all had recognizable beats progressing the relationship to an inevitable end. That's why there was a sex scene, but none of the compelling emotion we would expect from a love story that was so anticipated.

The last is the hotly contested, deeply unpopular belief that Jon will not love Dany, but will betray her in the books, and Jonerys was D&D romanticizing the plot points Martin gave them, just as they romanticized Jongritte and changed the point of that relationship. The theory for show verse had a lot of different names, political Jon being the most popular, and seeing as how Jon did betray Dany in the end, and for Sansa, which was the predicted endpoint (although as far as I can recall, none of us at the time speculated that he would kill Dany), I think that explains the oddities of Jonerys. That's the way I interpret it, and I think D&D were either pressured by HBO or their own fear of audience reaction led them to soften the dynamic/Dany's ending further because again, I do not think they believe they delivered a grand romance.

Obviously, the bad writing in s7-8 make most fans reject a lot, or all, of the developments hence the above being an unpopular stance, but I actually do think D&D were relaying in a very confused, contradictory way, some of Martin's plot points. The fact that so much in the end matched earlier ideas/themes...I don't buy that it was all D&D. I tried to wrestle all of that and Jon's love vs duty stuff in a very long post here .

What do you think?

[fromtheseventhhell]

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but it says a lot that the Stansas love the xenophobic, racist show ending and think it will be book canon whereas Key Five stans and other normal fans actually listen to GRRM saying the books ending will be different. Which would explain why Stansas originally hated the Ramsay plot in the show until they realized it could make her more important to Jon than Arya and they could use it to say Sansa is more victimized than Arya and Dany.

What gets me about the show is that there's just...no overall story being told. There are no overarching themes or points made, just us watching a series of events unfolding with no cohesiveness. There were plot points that went absolutely nowhere and no inconsistent characterization. Which makes sense, considering D&D's views on storytelling:

The story lines move forward and dig deeper as the episodes progress but rarely circle back and almost never pause for reflection. When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me.

They literally did not know or think about an overarching story. What gets me though is that all of the material was there in the books, they simply had to adapt it. Instead, we have them completely ignoring all of the book's themes for the entire show and then trying, poorly, to pretend like they cared at the end. The forced conversations about wanting to break the wheel and caring about the smallfolk were absolutely laughable. We had the one character who did the most to fight for the smallfolk, who was actually for systemic change, become a victim of character assassination. Then we had characters who actually show care and concern for the smallfolk in the books having that part of their character completely erased. They just wanted to shallowly trot out "cares about smallfolk" to make the characters they liked look better. Nothing actually ends up changing. The system doesn't get reformed and the people with the most power have never shown any indication of wanting to change the system. That's why people in this fandom praise conformity and demonize those who fight against the system. The only way their faves look "special" is if the staus quo ends up preserved. People will outright justify and defend classism because their favorite character is classist, and that's just where we are in terms of comprehension skills in this fandom.

[sad-endings-suck]

I have a theory why tradfems fester in the ASOIAF fandom, first one is that the fandom is filled with tradcels, so some are genuine pickmes who are into the series to get male attention. and others, the Stansas..i think they have a super shallow/self insert reading of their faves? aside from QITN/Jonsa/shitting on DanyArya nonsense they mostly like Sansa just because she's feminine. They praise stuff of her that is supposed to be seen in a negative light like her shallowness or lack of smarts and then make horrible takes about how she's revolutionary because she wears dresses unlike all other literature heroines cause they wear pants? nevermind they ignore the historical context for why Sansa would wear a dress in contrast to say a YA heroine living in modern day USA. it gets stupidier the more you think of it.

I definitely agree, and the whole situation is a lot more nuanced and understated than a lot of hardcore Stansas would have you believe.

I think the show can be blamed in part for depicting its female characters as archetypes of gender stereotypes. For example, Arya is often relegated to the role of the “not like other girls” female character. Dany is never allowed to be warm and caring like her book counterpart, and Sansa is made out to basically be a “damsel in distress” the first few seasons, and then a girl boss in the last few. The show runners really did not want these female characters to be multi-dimensional, they wanted to fit them into neat little gendered boxes.

The show would also rather have female characters r*ped than have consensual sex. As evidence by excluding female characters that do have a healthy relationship with sex (Asha, Val, Arianne) from the narrative.

In Westeros things like being intelligent, strong and independent are seen as masculine. Whereas traits like kindness, softness, and dependance on others are seen as feminine. But as the reader you are meant to know that traits like compassion or brutality are not feminine or masculine, and yet there are still readers that buy into the gender roles of Westeros without examining why they believe that adventuring for instance, is for men, and sitting in towers is for women. Gender is not as simple as “girls wear dresses and boys wear pants” and even though that is the general belief in Westeros, that is evidently not what the reader is meant to believe. And through characters like Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Asha, Arianne, Val, Brienne and more, that could not be made any more clear to the reader.

Some people are selective readers, some people have only seen the show and not read the books, others read the books a long time ago and have forgotten things, others only re-read their favs chapters and allow their favourite character’s own biases to influence their view of other characters. Despite the fact it is made clear no character is entirely objective and they all have their own biases and version of events.

Aside from that, I don’t get the Jonsa ship. To each their own, but I don’t understand how such an obscure pairing can be so popular. Jon and Sansa have not interacted one on one at any point in the entire book series (that I recall). On top of that, they only think of one another when they think of all of their siblings combined. I don’t believe there is a single instance of Jon thinking about Sansa individually or vice versa at any point in all of ASOIAF to date. Jon does think about Arya very fondly a whole lot, and vice versa. In fact, there is way more evidence for Jon x Arya than there is for Jon x Sansa (though I don’t care at all for either ship). But then again, maybe that’s why some Sansa stans insist on the Jonsa ship? Because they hate the idea of their favourite male character being closer to their favourite female character’s “rival” (Arya) than their favourite female character in question (Sansa)? I also think some people watched the show and saw how close Sansa and Jon seemed to be in the last few seasons and conflated that with some unseen truth that must exist in the books, even though we all know that pretty much everything in season 6 of GOT and onwards was bullshit.

Which brings me to my final point, which is that a lot of hardcore Stansas and Arya stans insist on this character war, and push the extreme idea that Sansa and Arya are enemies instead of… sisters that don’t get along.

[the-cryptographer]

i am trying to regain my asoiaf thoughts.

I forgot how much of a creeper Jorah Mormont is (something the show utterly didn't capture imho). Him being weird and paternalistically horny for Dany has been building up for a while. But him kissing her happened quicker than I remember. But I think the real thing that is striking me about him this time is the fact that he was a slaver. Like... there are a lot of ways I think Ned was an ineffectually idealistic ruler, but if there's anything to say he was 100% correct about it was holding Jorah responsible for trying to sell poachers he had captured into slavery, and it's something Jorah is incredibly self righteous about! He genuinely feels Ned wronged him and that his position shouldn't have been compromised for trying to sell off the criminals he'd written off as scum! It's interesting to see the connection that Dany and Barristan make between that and his plan for Dany to buy an army of slaves.

And, ah, yeah, the slavery plot... I'm not actually sure how I feel about it so far. It does feel a bit saviour complex and more than a little defining slavery by human rights violations rather than a labour system. But I did really enjoy Dany talking about how she herself was sold as property to Drogo and that's part of the sympathy she feels for them now. And tbh I'm also really glad Dany is actually doing something this book. I feel like last book she mostly just sat around not having a real plot beyond reminding us she was still alive and kicking across the narrow sea.

Forgot we started getting Sam's pov this book and not next one. Not actually sure how I feel about any of the Wall plot either? It seems to be getting increasingly bloated split between two characters this book, but I am enjoying Mance and Tormund and Ygritte, and how the lore of what's beyond the wall is getting expanded. But I think the ideology of the Wildlings being sort of more palatable by modern standards than the ideology of the Night's Watch creates a sort of dissonance reading this section of the book.

I also remember being into Jon/Ygritte in the show and when I read this before, and part of me sees why and the other part of me ;w; idk, it feels weird bc Jon is such a loser and a putz and Ygritte is so cute and confident and forward with her affections. and with every fibre of my being I feel she deserves better than this idiot who will inevitably betray her, but it's also just so clear that she likes him terribly and wouldn't choose anyone else - and that's also the larger part of her charm. So idk we'll see how it goes.

Over in King's Landing, it took me a moment to put together, but realised that Petyr told the Lannisters about the Tyrells trying to match Sansa to Willas because he heard it from Dontos and it was getting in the way of his plans to spirit her away to the Eyrie :')

Am enjoying the Tyrells. idk, I remember a lot of old drama about how they're entirely self serving and Marg is manipulating Sansa and this is toxic and not wholesome yuri. And that's all true, but also who cares. Tyrells are all flambouyant and self-serving and amusing af, and negging each other like crazy while also still being so invested in one another. Nothing not to love.

Also noticing that pretty much every character has gotten a moment to interact with the song The Bear and the Maiden Fair. Repeating motif! Ngl making me really hyped for when it's going to come up in Jamie's chapters.

I think another big part of this reread has been me reevaluating what the Arya storyline is and what it's about. I remember first time I was reading it being just so annoyed with the Arya fandom the show created when book Arya was quite rightly being more overtly in conflict with becoming a ball of violence with no other fixed identity. But rereading her sections I really see they're about how the subjugation of this or that Lord of Westros is pretty much all the same to the common people. And I do think that's a perspective this narrative sorely needed.

Think the last thing I have to share for now is... Davos. I'm actually not sure how to feel about his whole sudden religious fervor for the Seven and his vengeance schtick with Melisandre, but I did really enjoy the whole section with him being suicidal on that rock. Idk, it felt very visceral and familiar to me.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Talking about Hizdahr and Dany scenes in show, I wonder fans realize that Dany was literally behaving like Joffery to Hizdahr(who was basically in Sansa situation). There are certain book Dany fans who were unhappy with this because they think Dany was shown villainous. Like you mentioned that some of the scenes are more darker than books. Do you think makers knew what they are doing?

Well, Hizdahr appeared in Seasons 4&5, about the time the writing was getting weaker, but I think it’s apparent the writers knew what they were doing with Hizdahr, and that he was supposed to be a tragic figure Dæny doesn’t care about in the end (I mean Emilia said in S7 that goodbye to Jorah was “her shedding the rest of her humanity” so why not have the well meaning guy she repeatedly treated like trash be part of her arc?). No matter how you slice it, crucifying 163 random nobles without an investigation was a reckless move, as Dæny might’ve killed people who weren’t involved in crucifying the children—the show just made that obvious by having Hizdahr say his father was one of those who spoke against it. Same with her executing Mossador, a freedman leader who killed a Harpy’s son without trial; in the books Daario offers to kill them but she refuses and instead takes hostages. They tried to pull a plot twist with Hizdahr with many in the audience and even some characters thinking he was working with the Sons of the Harpy, but they stab him while he’s trying to lead Dænerys—the woman who killed his father, has him taken as a hostage, threatened him with dragonfire, locks him in a cell, forcibly marries him, belittles his culture, and threatens to destroy Meereen if they keep rebelling—to safety, proving he was looking out for her despite everything. Considering Dark!Dænerys ends up as canon in the show (and lbr there’s reason to believe it will be in the books), there’s nothing wrong with seeing her as the villain in her “relationship” with Hizdahr. In fact, it foreshadows her relationship with Jon come Seasons 7&8. I just wish Hizdahr’s death had more impact on the story, because he proved a lot about where her actions were going (as well as being a better leader of Meereen than Daario. Cmon show).

[jackoshadows]

@whitedragonwolf4961 in response to the two asks you send me:

1. I don’t think that how the books turn out is going to change anything with Jonsa shippers/Sansa fans in the same way that having pictures from space and scientific proof of the earth being round does not change the opinions of flat earthers. We have 5 books now. Do you think the absurd metas and rewriting of the story and characters we get from these stans have anything to do with those books?

These are the fools who came up with ‘political!Jon’ because they are cinematography experts who analyzed the light coming through a window on the boat when Jon and Dany were talking!!

These are the fools who continue using the TV show and especially show Sansa’s arc on the TV to speculate on her book story despite GRRM repeatedly disavowing that plot specifically in all his interviews and saying that the show and the books are two different and separate canon.

They don’t care!! Even if in TWoW we get Jon and Arya reuniting and there’s lots of mussing of hair and tears and love, they will just replace Arya with Sansa in their essays and talk about how it’s foreshadowing for Jonsa happening in A Dream of Spring.

Even if we get more hints of Jon and Dany being aligned in thought and purpose and of a future alliance between them in TWoW, they will still continue with how Jon is going to murder Dany for his true love Sansa in the last book because the colour red popped up in some corner of his room.

And if Arya becomes the Lady of Winterfell instead of Sansa? I expect lots of essays from bnfs and feminism experts about GRRM being sexist and what not. 100 % sure of this. After all they have been banging on and on about Sansa being the ‘embodiment of hope for the future’, the best politician on the planet, ‘Sansa Smart’, expert on food and diplomacy unlike political noob Jon Snow and violent killer Arya. How to deal with it? Oh no, we did not realize that GRRM is a woman hater who didn’t grasp the awesomeness of a character like Sansa.

2. Regarding Kit Harington and Jon Snow. I tend to not blame the actors for characters they play on TV shows tbh. I put the blame on ultimate hacks, Benioff and Weiss for failing upwards as rich, white men and turning in an horrendous script, full of one-dimensional characters, no plot, no themes and dripping with their sexism, toxic masculinity and femininity. There was really not much Harington could do when the script gave him literally nothing! Book Jon Snow is a rich, complex character with several layers of plot and story telling piled on him over 42 POV chapters. All they gave show Jon Snow was fighting in battles.

I know Sophie Turner gets a lot of hate and she just comes across as the typical rich, white teen when giving interviews. She honestly sounds like the stereotypical Sansa stan on tumblr. And yet the blame lies on Benioff and Weiss for taking tips on writing Sansa/Arya from teenagers reading tumblr metas rather than actually adapting the book you know? Turner was only spouting off what these hacks were putting out there on their TV show. And from everything Emilia Clarke is saying about how she was being pressurized in terms of nudity and sex scenes, the behind the scenes of this show is clearly a very toxic mess.

I think Kit Harington is a decent actor - he does good in comedy and I liked his take on a sleazy character accused of rape in season 2 of Criminal UK. Jon Snow is a hard character to play given how much of his POV is internal and yet Benioff and Weiss did not even attempt to faithfully adapt the book version just like they did not with Arya Stark and instead reduced these characters to tropes.

I honestly can’t say if another actor would have been better in the role of Jon Snow given the material on the show for the character is so poor. Would it have made a difference if they had an Olivier award winner in the role? All this award winner would do is swing a sword around and play supporting prop to other characters.

Actors will also defend the characters they play. We love these characters so much as readers of these books. These actors have spend ten years of their life inhabiting these characters and love them just as much as we do. Of course Kit is going to defend show Jon Snow just like Emilia defends Daenerys and Dinklage defends Tyrion.

I am just going to reserve my ire for

- Benioff and Weiss who seem to not even like fantasy, did not care for themes, characters and the story of the books, did not hire a writer’s room, had only male writers/directors and were petty in firing actors (by killing off their characters) if they criticized the show and

- GRRM, who even after seeing the utter mess D&D have made of his story has failed to finish a book in 12 years including a pandemic where we were all shut up inside our homes for close to 18 months.

GRRM is the reason for why the only ending we will have for this story started almost 30 years ago is the garbage that is the TV show. I am not entirely happy with the adaptation of the Wheel of Time tv show and I can see the showrunner taking hints from D&D in terms of how and what gets adapted for viewership numbers. And yet I am not all that bothered by this because we will always have the books and the book characters. We know how the story ends for these characters. Sadly with ASoIaF we will never have that while GRRM is busy consulting on the umpteenth spin off.

So yeah, don’t really blame the actors. They are only playing characters on a TV show and that depended on the script they got.