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Episode 81 Transcript: Either Be Straight or Be Gay With A Gay Earring

[intro guitar music] G: Hello, everyone, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For this episode, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 21: "When the Levee Breaks," written by Sera Gamble. Oh my god! This is a Sera Gamble episode.

C: Yeah, she does a lot of the big Sam ones, right?

G: Yeah. I still think about that one interview, whatever [C: Oh, yeah.], like, Jensen was asked, like, "Do you think the characters belong to the writers or the actors?" which [laughing] is a crazy question, by the way! And he said, "Sera Gamble thinks Sam is hers." [both laugh] [C: Well. Well.] Well, she and I, just exactly like each other. Except for the everything else.

C: Didn't she have that quote about how she thinks that there's like, a straight guy inside of her, and like, that part of her, comes out when she's writing Dean? [G laughs] Like, you are the straight guy inside of her.

G: [laughing] And then there's a gay guy inside of her that comes out when she's writing Sam.

C: That's true. And [both laughing] you are the gay guy inside of her. And you are the fire, and you are the forest, and you are a witness watching it.

G: [laughing] Yeah. And there is a bisexual guy in there that's writing Cas, and it's also me!

C: That's true. [both laugh] So we have a Q&A for Season 4. [G: Q&A.] Your questions will be due by midnight, Eastern Time, on January 27, 2024. [G: Hell yeah.] We only announced this like, two days ago, but [laughing] we don't have any questions yet, you guys. [G laughing] This is so embarrassing. Can you help?

G: This is true. We put it at the very end of the episode too, so no one else heard it.

C: No one was listening. But yeah. I don't know. Hit us with the Qs and we'll give you the As.

G: Okay. So "When the Levee Breaks," which [laughs] you have told me is pronounced "leh-vee"-

C: Due to the pronunciation in "American Pie."

G: [laughing] Yeah, because Crystal said to me, "They say Chevy to the levee, not Cheevee to the leevee." Okay. [laughing]

C: Well, society if they drove a Cheevee Impala. [G laughs]

G: To the leevee, even. [C: Yeah.] Well, before we go into this episode, this episode will focus- or does focus a lot on Sam's demon blood addiction arc and specifically on the medical abuse that is enacted on Sam by Dean and Bobby upon the discovery of this thing.

C: That Supernatural then justifies.

G: Yeah. This episode- this episode is going to be a tough talk, and if you think it's going to be a tough lesson as well, you know, just proceed with caution.

So "When the Levee Breaks," what did you know about this episode before you went in?

C: So I know that Sam was gonna be locked in the panic room and he would hallucinate. The two hallucinations I knew about were like, Mary stroking his hair and telling him that he's strong and also stronger than Dean, and then one of a younger Sam with yellow eyes. I know that there's like, a light from a hole in the ceiling, and like, a fan going and that like, there's gonna be famous, famous shots of him sitting on the floor, cross-legged, looking up at it.

G: Yeah, which is, of course, the cover of this episode.

C: Yes. And that at some point he also hallucinates himself having black veins in the mirror. I know that Cas lets Sam out of the panic room to start the Apocalypse or whatevs, and then at some point, Bobby holds a gun at Sam, and Sam takes it and directs it towards his heart and tells him to shoot. That is what I knew. I did not realize that the Destiel scene was gonna be in here until it was happening.

G: And what a shock it is! I mean, we'll get into it when we get there. This episode is a lot. And something that I found completely fascinating is Cas- because it's a lot, the Cas scenes, which are evidently like, not, like, comic relief or anything. Like, they're not funny. - They are like, the breather parts of this episode, you know? [C: Yeah.] Because everything else was so heavy. And every time Cas is on screen, it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, the crying can now stop for a little bit, [C laughs] because we're about to look at Cas's beautiful face." [laughing] Like, I- you told me when you were watching this, "What's the point of Cas being here? Is he just here to look pretty?" [both laugh] And I think he is, honestly. Like, he's here to look pretty so that you have some relief over the fact that everything is so miserable.

C: Yeah, yeah. He is just a hot piece of ass me this episode, I'm afraid.

G: Yeah. [laughing] Don't be afraid. [C laughs] It's fine.

C: [laughs] Why are you afraid?

G: Why are you afraid?

C: Yeah, the "Then" sequence- I'm glad that they don't have the scene where Sam and John fight and Sam's like, "You told me if I left, I should never come back!" [G laughs] Like, let us make that connection ourselves about that. [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] It'd be so corny if it was in there. I don't know. It's what you expect. [G: Yeah.] Demon blood drinking, Dean being like, a dick about it, like, "If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you." That's in there, right?

G: That's crazy that-

C: He said that?

G: I mean, I didn't know that this episode ends with how it ends. For some reason, I thought that fight happens in Season 5.

C: About what?

G: Like, Episode 2. 'Cause they part, right? In Season 5. That's why there's the whole Sam is behind the bar and Dean is having a date with Cas episode in Season 5. [C: Right.] And I thought before that, like, before they separate, that's when the fight happens. Which, I don't know. I guess I'm getting my wires crossed because it happens here, so. [C: Yeah.] I did not expect it to be here. And I know that fight is about like, "Sam, you're a monster." So I didn't really- I don't know. Like, when I was watching the teaser, I was like, "Why are they bringing this up?" [C: The-?] And I mean, I know why. I know why. It's because, you know, it's Dean's entire mindset. But I thought they were gonna lean on something else this episode.

C: Got it. Like the "I hated that you lied so much" [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] parts of Season 4 instead?

G: So in the end, when it is obvious that they lean completely on the "If I didn't know you, I would want to hunt you" part of it, it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, everything is so miserable, and now everything is even more miserable, so."

C: Sure is, bud. And we also get the clip from "Home" where Mary apologizes to Sam [G makes pained sound], and he goes, "For what?" And he's so young and sad-looking. He's such a little baby. And I already started getting emotional. If I rewatch "Home," will it be like, not good? Or like, is it good for real?

G: I mean, it was also good to me, and I did also watch-

C: - it before, and all of Supernatural also. Yeah.

G: Yeah. But to be fair, when we started this podcast, I was so Season 1-pilled. Like, the reason why I was like, [bratty] "We should start a Supernatural podcast!" was because- I don't know why I'm doing that voice. [C laughs] But because I watched Season 1 just a little bit before, right? So like, I remember those stuff, like, completely. And the future episodes and the future seasons I remember less. So maybe I was already in the mindset of "I would like it" because I was in Season 1 mindset. [C: Yeah.] So maybe. I don't know.

C: Maybe.

G: Yeah, we start the episode right where we ended last time, which is Bobby and Dean have just locked Sam into that goddamn room. [C sighs] Sam is- what happens here? They lock Sam in, and then Sam is there for a while, right? [C: Yeah.] And then Dean comes back to open the window. [C: Mm-hm.] And yeah, as Dean does that, you know, Sam is in his "This is not funny. Let me out. It's crazy," etc etc, "Just open the door." And Dean is saying like, "I'm not letting you out until you dry out." Sam said, "Look, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have lied to you. Just open the door." And Dean says, "You don't have to apologize. It's not your fault. [angrily] It's not your fault that you lied to me over and over again. I get it now. You couldn't help it."

C: I hate him.

G: But like, he's not saying this in any way that is-

C: It's very bitter.

G: I mean, it's still a bad thing to say, but if it comes from a place of trying to understand, it would be less [laughs] terrible. Because, like, even if the action is bad, it is coming from a place of trying to understand, and so therefore, there's a thought of, "Well, let's just make you understand it better 'cause you are trying to understand, right?" But like, this is not coming from a place of trying to understand anything. This is just "I'm angry. I'm bitter. And fuck you, dude." [C: Yeah.] And yeah, Sam's saying, like, "I'm not some junkie," and Dean-

C: Right, which, I guess like- I guess first thing, when Dean is saying like, "Oh, it's not your fault you lied to me. You couldn't help it." like, bitterly and sarcastically or whatever, it is 'cause he is like, saying-

G: "You're on drugs," yeah.

C: "This is your addiction," that's what he's saying. The fact that, yeah, like you said, the fact that he draws this conclusion and then uses it to be more angry at Sam instead of more compassionate is pretty wild. Like, [laughs] why would that be the direction you go into, Dean? Okay, if your brother's been lying to a bunch, and you're like, "Well, I don't like that. Why are you doing that?" And then you discover it's because of like, a substance abuse issue, then like, [laughs] you're supposed to be less mad at him.

G: Yeah, like, because this is like- I think we've said it before, like, last episode. But it's like, purely a "he's mad that Sam is drinking demon blood." [C: Yeah.] Like, that is that where the anger is at. And it's not about "Sam is doing something that Dean doesn't like" in terms of the other things. Like, "Sam is acting in a way that Dean doesn't like." Because, like, if that is what Dean is angry about, then, well, he should have been angrier, like, before he found out about the demon blood. [C: Yes.] I guess the whole point Dean is trying to make is like- you know, one of the common things that people do say to addicts, which is like, "It's your fault," which [groans loudly].

C: Yeah, Dean's saying, "I agree with that. And I'm saying it." [G: Mm-hm.] [screams] What a guy. Sam's also being ableist here. But he's not the one being medically- or, he is the one being medically abused, so. [laughs] Like, we can deal with that after he's out of the panic room.

G: Because the words they're using here are, you know, junkie. And then Sam says, like, "Oh, you're trying to twist this into some drug intervention thing." So like, you know, the- what they're trying to say in the script is very clear. Like, the parallels they're trying to draw in the script is very clear. [C: Yes.] I think it was like, last episode, I was like-

C: "It doesn't have to be one-to-one," yeah.

G: Yeah, "Does Dean and Bobby understand that this is the blah blah blah." Yes, they do. Yes, they understand it's a medical thing.

C: And they're being worse because of it.

G: And everything is so horrible!

C: Yeah, they're like, "It's a medical thing? Great. Now we can do medical abuse!" Like, [laughs] okay.

G: And Sam says here that like, "I'm not drinking the demon blood for kicks. I'm getting strong enough to kill Lilith." And then Dean-

C: Yeah, which is why people use drugs in the first place. Like, "blah blah blah, it gives me powers," like plenty of people use drugs because it like, gives them powers in a way.

G: People do cocaine to do things.

C: I'm reminded of a community organizer- Yeah, exactly. Like, a community organizer who spoke to like, my group at school once or whatever, who, like, runs a mutual aid fund for unhoused people in the city was talking about how like, for example, like, if you're homeless and every time you try to sleep on a bench or something, and like, the park is closed or whatever, the cops come by and force you to leave, like, sometimes the best option to like, keep you walking all night instead of getting arrested, is like, to do like, a stimulant. Like, plenty of people do drugs for like, quote unquote "powers." And Sam doesn't need to separate himself in that way.

G: And also- How do I say this? I'm not American, so my perspective, in like, you know, the Philippines, which is where I live. So where I live, the attitude and the like, perception and everything towards drugs, it's just- you know, it's just going to be different, 'cause it's a very different place. We've gone through very different things, like, in recent history. But from my understanding in the United States, isn't it like, a lot of people are addicted also to painkillers?

C: Yeah, there's like, an opioid epidemic, I think, yeah.

G: Yeah, problem in the United States. And like, that too is like a- that starts from a place of trying to not be in pain. [C: Yeah.] And you can argue, continues from that place also. And you know, like, people who have anxiety, if a downer helps you, well, it helps you. [C: Yeah.] This perspective of like- [laughs] whatever Sam's saying here is [C laughs]- I don't know. The thing is like, I don't want to criticize Sam so much for like, his views on whatever, because again, he is in the position of trying to argue to someone who is enacting abuse on him to stop it. So like, I'm not saying that Sam should have the correct views on drug use just, as a character, but I'm saying like, if you're trying to reason out with someone who has the views that Dean has, you would try to communicate with him in a language that fits his views because he has the power over you. [C: Yeah.] So you have to, pretty much.

C: Though I guess we're meant to believe that Sam [G: Sam thinks this?] does believe what he's saying, I think so.

G: Because of his hallucinations later, yeah.

C: Yeah. I don't know. Hopefully, once he's out and does some healing- which may never happen [both laugh]-

G: I mean, it's Supernatural.

C: - maybe he can work on that.

G: Aww. You know, this entire episode, it's so miserable. It truly is.

C: Is he gonna be in that Pit next season?

G: Like, the entire time, I just keep on trying to fast forward into the future Supernatural to be like, [fake-teary] "But, you know, like, Sam does-"

C: Hashtag it gets better?

G: [laughs] Hashtag it gets better. I don't know. Like, Dean dies at the end of the show and Sam keeps on. [C laughing] Hashtag it gets better, I think.

C: [laughing] Yeah. For real.

G: I mean, the main thing that I thought about a lot this episode was that someday, Sam is going to be friends with Rowena. And Rowena is like, a representation of everything Sam's afraid of, you know? Like, she has powers, she like, does devil worship, whatever, and she is on the side of the demons, like, just by technicality. And those are all things that Sam is being accused of right now, and he is so afraid it's true for, like, some of those things. And Rowena's all of those things, and you know what? She's happy, she's competent, she's slaying. She's in a beautiful dress all the time.

C: Yeah, she's a natural redhead.

G: Yeah, [laughs] she's a natural redhead. And more importantly, like, she's on Sam's side. Like, I mean, not at the beginning, I suppose. But for most of it, like, they're friends, you know? And this is something that Sam was so afraid of becoming. And she's fine! And like, I think about that, and, I don't know. And that's just what I mean that, like, [laughing] I try to fast forward to the very future to be like, "Well, someday, Sam is going to meet Rowena. And [laughing] also, Dean will die." [C laughing] It's going to be okay, you guys!

C: If only there was a period of time where Dean was dead and Rowena wasn't.

G: Oh, yeah, this is true.

C: They don't overlap properly. Very sad.

G: Yeah. Maybe Robina was the blurry wife [C laughs], and, you know, Eileen was also inside, and that's why you didn't see her. But she's also there.

C: That's true. That's true.

G: Yeah. God, [laughs] imagine if, like, Sam did get together with like, Eileen or something. And then Eileen decided to be like, "Okay, we'll name the kid Dean." Like- [laughs]

C: No.

G: This is why you got divorced, Sam.

C: That would not happen. [G laughs] Like, this new Dean Winchester would never come to pass.

G: [laughing] Like, this is why Sam got divorced. [C laughs]

C: I think Rowena dared Eileen to do it [G laughs], but she thought Sam wouldn't actually go through with it, but he was like, [emotional] "Oh, you really want to honor my dead brother that much? [G laughs] Like, it'd be rude for me to say no. I didn't know you and Dean were so close." [G: For real.] And he has it down on the birth certificate, and she's screaming and crying. Well, that kid still has time to be trans at any point in their life, [both laugh] and that includes changing their name to not Dean.

G: Sam says, "I'm getting strong enough to kill Lilith." And then we have this extremely wonky line [C: What? Wh-?] where Dean goes, "Strong?" [C laughs] And Sam says, "Yeah." [both laughing] And Dean goes, "This is about as far away-" I can't even say it without laughing! "This is about as far away from strong as you can get. Try weak." [C laughing] Watching this, I was like, screaming, like, "What the fuck is going on, honestly? What is this?"

C: Men will be like, "I view this as an addition parallel to heroin addiction, and that makes you weak, desperate, and pathetic."

G: [laughs] No, I mean, I understand that, but also like, the whole like-

C: You can just say "Strong?"

G: [laughing] "This is as far away from strong as you can get. Try weak." [both laughing] is the funniest line that's ever been said on all of Supernatural.

C: Yeah, he's in the antonyms section of thesaurus.com. [G laughing] He's like, "No, see, the color on this is like, really gray, which means that it's like, the word that's really unlike the word I've looked up, and the words that are dark red are similar."

G: [laughs] Well. He's weak. [laughs] He's far away from strong as he can get, which is weak. [C laughing] But yeah.

C: [laughing] Supernatural is an educational program for elementary schoolers. They're learning about antonyms today.

G: Sam says, "Killing Lilith is what matters. Or are you busy so being self-righteous you forget about her?" [C: Slay.] And Dean says, "Lilith's going to die. Bobby and I will kill her, but not with you. Congrats, Sammy. You just brought yourself a benchwarmer seat to the Apocalypse." [C: Well.] And he slams down- he slams that fucking window cover, and, you know, Sam was inside, just shouting, "Let me out of here." It is fascinating that, you know, Dean immediately is here being like, "Congratulations. You're not going to fight in the Apocalypse." It's also what's brought up later, like, "No, I'm the one who's supposed to be, not you," whatever.

C: Mm. What is Dean supposed to like, do? Like, no one told me his task.

G: I don't know. Like, be Cas's sub? [both laugh] I don't know. Something, I suppose.

C: What is interesting is that Sam is just doing his like- He's like, responding to Dean like, defensively and angrily. But then, at "You just bought yourself a benchwarmer seat to the Apocalypse," that's when he starts like, getting scared again and telling Dean like, "No, wait." But alas. Which I guess the point of that is just that he's- like, the main reason he wants to get out, even right now, is to kill Lilith, 'cause that's his main focus. But yeah. Oh, Sam.

G: Yeah. I don't think it comes from a place of like, "I want to, you know, have a role in the Apocalypse," blah blah blah. [C laughs] Like, I don't think it's coming from that specific perspective. It's coming from a "I just solemnly do not think that Bobby and Dean can do it," which is a very different mindset.

C: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, don't think they can do it either.

G: Yeah. And I mean, Sam does kill Lilith, and [laughs] then it starts the Apocalypse, so hell yeah, baby.

C: Hell yeah. I hate the window cover on the panic room door so much. [G: Yeah.] Like, the way that Dean just slams it shut when he leaves as like, a "this is just to show that I have power over you, and I decide when you like, get spoken to, and when you're listened to. And also, I just want to prevent you from seeing out of this tiny room because I wish you to be miserable forever." And also, this is "I feel guilty about locking you in here. So by like, shutting this window cover, I'm like, pretending that there's like, an animal in here [G: Yeah.] or like, no one in here." Like, shut the fuck up, Dean.

G: That is actually- That topic of like, Dean being like, "Oh, that's not Sam, that's, you know, someone else." And what really brings it up is later when Dean and Bobby are talking and like, Dean is like, "So when's it gonna end?" you know? And it's like, I feel like the kind of message inside that is like, "When are we gonna get Sam back?"

C: Exactly. Like you haven't broken your trust inexorably. Like, he's not gonna be like, the Sam you knew before Season 4 when he comes back, because you have done this to him.

G: I mean, it follows a lot of the things that people say about addicts, and like, people with mental illnesses that are severe. It's like, "Oh, that's not them anymore." So, like, the treatment is less trying to help the person and more trying to bring them back. [C: Mm-hm.] And so that excuses a lot of methodologies where you ignore the status of the patient right now, like, how it's going to affect them right now for the benefit of "Oh, but in the future, it's going to be them because this person in front of me right now is not them." And Dean dehumanizing Sam is like, well, it's horrible.

C: Sure is, bud.

G: The thing is, you know, that perspective comes from a place of- I'm sure it's difficult to be in a situation where a loved one is experiencing this, but it's just that so much of the talk about this kind of stuff is focused on that, you know? Like, if you have any mental illness that isn't like, quote-unquote "the acceptable ones," if you look that shit up online, I swear to god [laughs], it's so easy to find which ones society thinks are like, acceptable mental illnesses and which ones are not, 'cause if you look up like, "how to deal with depression," it's always like, "how do you deal with depression?" with your depression. "How do you deal with your anxiety?" You look up "how to deal with schizophrenia," it's like, "how to deal with a loved one who has schizophrenia." [C: Yeah.] You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] Addiction, again, I don't really understand how the cultural aspects and the societal environment regarding addiction is in the United States.

C: Yeah, plus in 2009, so.

G: Yeah, plus in 2009 also. But like, I feel like that also applies to addiction with the addition of people treat it as if, you know, the burden of fault is solely on the person themselves. So, you know, that also adds another layer of complexity. This is the point in the episode where I just - for context, I don't really take much notes in episodes anymore. In the beginning, I used to a lot, but now that I'm more comfortable with my English, I don't really do it. So this is the point where I just [laughs] paused it completely and start typing. Like, just long, long, long. And it's not even specifically so that I can talk about it in the podcast. It's just that it's so much, and I wanna put it out there. Like, a lot of the things I type out, it's not like, even for discussion, really. It's just that [screams] [C: Yeah.] It's so bad! I need to get it out! [C: Yeah.] Yeah, this is the first episode of Supernatural in recent memory of mine, like, since we got back from our break, where I'm thinking of it outside of Supernatural. Like, I am realizing again that, like, media makes you think about your life type shit, you know? [C: Yeah.] And yeah. Pretty horrible episode to think that of, but good lord.

C: Good lord.

C: We go to a bit later in the panic room, and Sam- Like, there's lights flickering. And then he starts calling out that like, "Guys, get down here. Something's coming." It's a hallucination of Alastair, but the fact that they don't check on him at all. Like, something could be coming. It's the Apocalypse. But whatever. So person who appears, hallucination of Alastair, and he ties Sam up crucifixion style [G: Yeah.] to a cross in a devil's trap. It's like, kinda like the boob strap table situation, except [G: Except there's no boobs?] he's fully clothed. I mean, there's boobs. They're just under a shirt. [G: This is true.] It's just a torture scene where Sam's screaming and telling him to stop, and Alastair's like, cutting into his stomach with a knife, presumably. We cut to like, the camera from an outside perspective. It's Sam on a bed in the middle of the devil's trap, with his arms out crucifixion-style, like, screaming and stuff. And there's a bucket by the side of the bed [G: Oh. Yeah.], which was upsetting to look at, but, I mean, there's no plumbing down there. Ugh.

G: You know what? I would say this. The directing in this episode is excellent. Not to-

C: [laughing] And it's by Robert Singer. [G laughs]

G: I'm sorry to everyone, but like, Robert Singer slayed with this one.

C: Yeah. I do agree with that.

G: Like, I mean, my favorite part, we're gonna bring it up later, is in the right before the fight scene at the end, the way Sam's face is framed and Dean's face is framed, it's amazing. But here, in this one, all the hallucinations, the way it's done is like, hallucination. And then, as Crystal said, there's like, a third-person point of view where you see that Sam is having a hallucination and talking to no one. They do it for, I think, every single one. Or I'm not sure they do it with the young Sam, but they do it with Alastair, with Mary, and with Dean. The way it is positioned in the narrative in every single one of those is, I think, very excellent. Here, in Alastair, I mean, obviously, this is a hallucination. So we know that it's hallucination. It's violence. Alastair's enacting violence with Sam. And then with Mary, we also know it's a hallucination, but now it's like, an act of kindness. And so, you know, the distinction between "Sam is alone, and he's so afraid, and he's hurting so so so much." And then with Mary, it's like, "He's alone, but he is feeling hopeful," and, you know, he is being given comfort. And then the last one, we don't start with the explicit knowledge that it's a hallucination. [C: Yes.] 'Cause it's completely reasonable that Dean would be there, standing there. And the conversation actually starts with Dean showing like, considering in a way that he hasn't before. It starts with him being like, "Why are you doing this, Sam?" Well, he says, "Why are you doing this to yourself?" But like, this is like, the first time, pretty much, that Dean has asked an explanation from Sam, [C: Yeah.] and is trying to understand what Sam is going through, why he's going through it, etc etc. And it does start from a benevolent place. And you're thinking - you go in, you're thinking, "Oh my god! Are they finally gonna talk? [C laughs] Oh my god! Dean is like, actually trying to put out like, an olive branch to try to understand Sam." And then it cuts to like, the third person POV, and you realize this is a hallucination. And I legitimately just start sobbing so much. Because it's like, even in Sam's subconscious, he is trying to give Dean the benefit of the doubt. Like, Dean, is currently enacting this fucking so horrible thing to Sam, and Sam's subconscious is still like, "But Dean is doing it out of like, trying to help me. Like, he's trying to understand me." And then the scene continues, and then it turns into the, you know, the Dean in Sam's hallucination being as evil as he becomes like, you know, later in that episode. But that small moment where you think Dean is going to reach out to Sam and try to actually understand him and talk to him, and then it's a hallucination with Sam's brain. It's truly, truly a fucking moment. And I think the buildup from it- the buildup to it from this scene with Alastair first time it happens, and then Mary, and then Dean is quite excellent. So yeah. Good job, Robert Singer. Apparently, the fucking zoom is not his only trick in his basket. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. They did like, one zoom that I found really, really annoying.

G: [laughing] Which one? Which one? Which one?

C: It wasn't like, a Robert Singer zoom. It was just like, the zoom on like, Dean's face when he's like, "I'm a hero, [G laughing] and I'm not gonna let my brother turn into a monster."

G: I didn't even realize that there was a zoom this episode.

C: It's not- Am I lying? What if there's no zoom at all? Should I check?

G: Robert Singer zooms are truly one of a kind. [laughs]

C: Yeah, it wasn't a Singer-type zoom; it was just a normal zoom.

G: Like, they need to name that zoom the Singer zoom because buddy, it sure is.

C: [laughing] Yes, there's a zoom. [G: Hell yeah.] A subtle one. It's at like, 22:20, if you want to see Dean be the worst guy alive.

C: We go upstairs to Bobby's, and he and Dean are imbibing substances that they will later be told- like, we'll be told by like, Supernatural, that they're addicted to - in order to feel better in a situation. Interesting. [laughs] They're drinking whiskey together.

G: Sam is very audibly screaming in a background.

C: Yes, he's screaming, "Stop! Stop!" Dean goes like, "How long is this gonna go on?" And Bobby's like, "Oh, I'll look it up in my demon detox manual. Oh, wait! There isn't one. Like, I have no idea how long it'll take. And also, Sam might die." Like, [laughs] okay. [G: Yeah.] So I guess here's where-

G: So it's like, we're going in blind. [C: Uh-huh.] And the thing is like, they don't know what's going to happen. This is essential. They don't know.

C: They have no clue.

G: First of all, why didn't they put Sam in a place where, potentially more comfortable. And if it's because they're afraid he's going to- well, I mean, there's a lot of issues already with that. But, like, if the point is that "We need to keep him here and help him," which is like, okay, fine. If that's the stance we're going to take. Put somebody in the room with him! [C: Yeah.] Have somebody watch him! He's going to die. [C: Yeah.] I legit- like, if Cas didn't let him out, I think he would have died.

C: Yes. Bobby says so.

G: Bobby said that, too, yeah. I can't believe Bobby was like, "He might die." And Dean was-

C: And they were just like, "Okay."

G: Dean wasn't like, "I need to be in that room to make sure that we're not going too far, and that he won't die." But, like, Dean, is not going to do that because his perspective is like, "Can't do anything. He's gonna die."

C: "That's not Sammy. That's not Sammy."

G: [laughing] His perspective is like, "If he's going to die, at least he's gonna die with less demon blood [C groans] than he had earlier." [C: God. God.] But he will have demon blood, like, fundamentally. [laughing] It's like, he was a kid, and he just has it. I mean, we've talked about "What the fuck does it mean to drink demon blood and then have demon blood?" [C: Yeah.] whatever that means. But also like, is Sam the only one who can develop like, powers from drinking demon blood?

C: Well, the other psychic kids could. But are you saying like, [G: If I did it.] "If a regular schmegular person did it." Yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

G: 'Cause like, [laughs] I mean, the line that, you know, Bobby said is like, "No one ever wrote one." which is like, "But did somebody experience it in the past?" [laughs] Like, did someone just have a demon boyfriend? And then they-

C: Right, were into bloodplay or whatever?

G: Yeah. Did somebody just eat someone out while they're on their period, and that someone happened to be a demon? Like, what's the situation here?

C: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if Sam has community in that way.

What they're doing right now, right? Like, they're locking Sam in a room and not letting him in case he drinks demon blood or whatever. Like, they're enacting like, a cold turkey method on him. And like, the thing about that is, they're drawing parallels to real life. And the thing about going cold turkey like, in real life is that it can be dangerous. Like, there's some drugs, like alcohol, where, like, in serious cases, quitting cold turkey causes people to like, literally die of alcohol withdrawal syndrome. Also, just in terms of like, completely unassisted, like, remission from substance abuse, like, there's like, a paper that was published a month ago in the Journal of Drug and Alcohol Dependence, and it found that, like, opioid addiction treatments that aren't assisted by medication like methadone are literally worse than not being treated at all. Like, as in like, just continuing to take the drug, or like, get better on your own or whatever, like, in terms of risk of overdose death. Because if you go cold turkey, you lose your tolerance really fast, so then, like, if, after you leave the program, you relapse, you're a lot more likely to overdose and die. So like, they're doing this thing where they're taking Sam off of demon blood with no medical assistance, and also, when, like, Sam himself, did not agree to stop using. And now they're locking him in a room and ignoring him. So like, like they said, they don't know anything about this. Like, they fully could have killed Sam with this, or like, if the unassisted opioid treatment situation happens, if he leaves after they've kept him there for a while, and then he takes demon blood again because, like, he didn't agree to be in this panic room, like, this isn't something that he's agreed to stop doing, like, he could have overdosed and died. And like, they are aware of this because Bobby literally says later, like, "I think we're killing him because of cold turkey and all that shit." But like, they still stick to the strategy, and they still make Dean seem like a good guy by wanting that to be the strategy. [G: Yeah.] Because, despite like, all this evidence, like, there's an obsession with going cold turkey as like, the correct-

G: "Getting clean," yeah.

C: Yeah, as "getting clean." Yeah, that kind of like, language, it's like, the only correct way to be in remission from an addiction is to go cold turkey, and not because, like, you're worried about- it's not because of like, the science, because that's not what the science says. And it's not because, like, you're concerned about the health of the person going through withdrawal or whatever and you think that's the best way.

G: 'Cause Dean wants him to die instead.

C: Yeah, [laughs] Dean literally wants him to die instead! It's because, like, yeah, like you said, it's the drinking demon blood itself [G: Itself, yeah.] is the issue. Like, that is something that Dean and Bobby and the show considers to be like, an evil action that, like, dirties- your soul, Dean literally says. That's what they've been saying this whole season with like, Chuck's whole fucking "Sucking blood? You gotta know that's wrong!" shit. Like, it's literally just "We think the action itself-" like, "We, Supernatural, think the action itself is disgusting, and like, we think that you, as viewers, think that, like, the act of like, being addicted-" or, sorry. "The act of like, taking substances or like, the condition of being addicted is like, disgusting also, and we're going to draw on that to make you scared of Sam this season to make you want him to stop drinking demon blood." [G: Yeah.] But like, yeah, doing drugs is like, a morally neutral action and addiction is a morally neutral condition, and also, like, the actual issues, are like, if like, it causes you to hurt people in some way, [G: Yeah.] but like, Sam has not hurt anyone this season because he wanted to drink demon blood. Like, it's never happened. Dean hasn't seen it. We haven't seen it. Like he- what? Like, he cut that demon's neck to drink out of it before he killed her?

G: [laughing] And then stabbed her!

C: He was gonna kill her anyway. [laughs] [G: Yeah. So.] He was going to kill her anyway. Dean wanted him to kill her anyway. Like, he was Alastair with his mind? Dean was going to kill Alastair with the knife. [G: Yeah.] Like, Dean keeps telling Sam you should kill people with a knife instead of exorcising them. Like, [laughs] I think Dean's the one doing harm there. What are- the only action I can think of that could be like, bad is like, lying to Dean, and like, this is a very disproportionate response that something Dean can just get over or talk through with Sam some more. So like, it's not about any like, actual like, harm that exists. It's just moral disgust at this drug use thing.

G: Here's the thing. Later on, in the episode, Dean says something that you just mentioned that I found so interesting. I'm gonna bring it up now. But he says "his soul," "you're like, dirtying his soul" or something. [C: Yeah.] And I was like, "Wait does Dean think that drinking demon blood means that when Sam dies, he's gonna go to Hell."

C: Yeah, I think Dean thinks that. It could be true, for all we know.

G: I mean, it could be true. But like, that thought, then, like, recontextualizes Dean's, like, moral righteousness feeling in his situation, and like, the, you know, the, as you said, the "die human" bit. Because it's like, well, if that happens, at least Sam will have a chance to not have, like, you know, eternal donation and torture, which Dean knows for a fact is what happens when you go to Hell when you die. Except the show does not do anything with that, does not lean into it. It is like, a one-mentioned line that you have to make that leap to get to. [C: Yes.] So I heard that line, and I was like, "Wouldn't it have been interesting if maybe they leaned into that just to provide us with some like, I don't know, like, moral ambiguity?" Whatever. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. 'Cause like, what is good and what is bad, and like, Sam is trying to stop the Apocalypse, but he's doing this thing that might get him to Hell. Is that good? Is that bad? What's happening? And I don't know. It's like a "what if?" of this season, I feel like. 'Cause Dean did just come from Hell. Like, that is a fresh memory. And if you evoke that very fresh memory to be like, "And the reason why I don't want you going down this path is because I'm afraid that you're going to be in Hell, and when you're in there, no one's going to get you out like they did me, and you're just going to be suffering for the rest of eternity." And like, that's a valid fear. It would imbibe Dean's actions with more validity, I suppose.

C: Yes, but they already think that you think he's right.

G: Exactly. But like, Supernatural already assumes that Dean's perspective is already selfishly imbibed with reason. So like, okay, well.

C: Yeah. And it also says something about Dean and Supernatural as a whole that he thinks that "Sam's gonna go to Hell for drinking demon blood, but if we tie him down and force him to not drink it for a few days, and then he dies, like, it leaving his body [G: Yeah.] will be what allows him to get into Heaven." Like, it's not about like, his actions or his wants or anything. It's just about like, "let's get the bad, evil, dirtying stuff out of him."

G: Yeah. It's because, Dean, you know, Supernatural itself is a very biologically deterministic show, just fundamentally.

C: Do you think Sam thinks he's gonna go to Hell?

G: Interesting question. I don't know. Maybe he hasn't thought that far ahead. If you stop the Apocalypse, I feel-

C: Yeah. He thinks he's gonna die, though. [G: Yeah-] He's like, "I'm gonna stop the Apocalypse and probably die in the process."

G: Yeah. But, you know, I mean, if you stop the Apocalypse, I feel like that gets you like, a ticket to Heaven [C laughs], even though you're kind of terrible. I mean, Sam is kinda terrible, but not for the reasons that Supernatural is trying to tell. For other reasons. [both laugh]

C: Yeah. Yeah. I think that he does think of himself as like, being clever and using the demon blood as a tool, so like, he's not going to be treated by the Heaven and Hell system like a monster or like a demon, or whatever. Yeah, I think he hasn't thought that far ahead, but like, if you asked him, "Do you think you're gonna go to Hell?" he'll go like, "I mean, probably not."

G: It's because Sam's treating the world like it's generous in the way it thinks of him. Like, he thinks that the world is going to see him and see complexity.

C: Right. Which is why he's so shocked when Ruby's like, "If the angels see me, like, they're gonna kill me and possibly you, also" in like, 4.02, or whatever?

G: Yeah. And it's like, "Why? I'm not doing anything wrong."

C: Yeah, "And you're not doing anything wrong. We're trying to save the world."

G: And, you know, Sam in that place is trying to be like, you know, come from a place of complexity and trying to understand the situation, except this world of Supernatural, and you know what? the world outside of Supernatural that is making the world of Supernatural refuse to engage with him with complexity, so now we're here.

C: He still has like, complexity. [G: Yeah, yeah, of course.] Like, this, episode is about giving him depth. But they refuse to engage in his demon blood drinking with complexity, mostly.

G: I was thinking that one, yeah.

C: Yeah. God. Literally no telling how long it will take Hell or Sam will even live through it. Okay, Bobby this episode is kind of odd, [laughs] because, like, he sort of later acts like Dean just sort of made him do this, and he's not that into it. What is the situation with Bobby right now? Maybe we'll get into it later, but like, I'm unsure how like, Bobby seems to oscillate a lot in terms of like, whether or not he wanted to do this to Sam in the first place, and like, how he feels about it. [G: Yeah.] But I think it's just because he's like, there to provide an opposing perspective to Dean's, so there's not a lot of internal consistency.

G: I think Bobby just got himself in a position where Dean called him first, is what happened. [C: Mm-hm.] If Sam called him first, I think this would be quite a different situation.

C: Huh. Like, [laughs] Sam would be like, "I need you to help me mediate a discussion between me and Dean"?

G: Pretty much. Like, "Dean is mad at me. I don't know what to do. Here's the situation. Can you help me?" And if he did that, maybe Bobby would be like, "Sam, I don't think you should be doing this," but I don't think he'll be locking Sam up, you know? [C: Yeah.] But because Dean is first one to be like, [dramatically] "Bobby, we need to lock Sam up! Bobby, please!" So now they're here.

C: Yeah. I mean, to be capable of doing it either way, but [G: Yeah.] I am sad that Sam didn't call him first.

G: Like, sometimes you have two annoying friends [C laughing], and one of them calls you about their drama, and this is what happens, yeah.

C: Yeah.

We get Bufus. [G: Hell yeah.] Like, I feel like this is our first proper Bufus.

G: Well, I mean, Bobby was like, "You should go to Rufus and bring a thing."

C: That's true.

G: And Rufus was like, "Who sent you here. Bobby Singer? Oh, hell no. Go away, Dean." [C laughs] right?

C: I think so.

G: That's love, baby! [both laugh] [C: It is.] That's old yaoi.

C: It really really is. Like, they will be more divorced than Destiel ever could be.

G: Yeah. You know it's more romantic than getting divorced? [laughing]

C: What?

G: [laughing] That's such a funny beginning to a statement. [C laughs] Well, nothing is more romantic than getting divorced and then getting back together. And you know what? Bufus will do it. They will do it. [C: That's true.] I believe in them.

C: I believe in them. Bobby's phone rings, and he picks it up, and he goes, "Hello. Suck dirt and die, Rufus. [G laughs] You call me again, I'll kill you!" [both] Love is real! [both laughing]

G: "Suck dirt and die" is so funny. [C laughing] Like, I don't- what does that even mean? What image is that trying to like, gather from? Is it just like, a-

C: I think it's like, "Get buried alive and then suffocate."

G: Well, yeah.

C: Yeah. It's so good. I don't know. It's about like, being familiar enough with someone that like, you do this, and you know that they'll call you again.

G: It's funny because, I mean, Bobby immediately knows why Rufus is calling.

C: Mm-hm. Yeah, he says that it's because Rufus knows. [G: Ooh.] But like, about what? Just about the seals, right?

G: That he's gay. I don't know. [C laughs]

C: Like, I thought it was about like, Sam's demon blood addiction, but later, it's just about the seals.

G: It's just seals, is what's revealed.

C: Yes. Did Bobby tell him?

G: Did Bobby tell him? Oh my god, love is so real! [laughs]

C: Yeah, no, for real, though.

G: I mean, what are the times in this show where somebody tells someone about a seal? Dean and Cas in that fucking- [C: Living room?] kitchen? [C: Oh, the kitchen, yes.] Ruby and Sam on that bed. [laughs] And you know what? Rufus and Bobby.

C: Also in bed.

G: [laughing] So love is real. Also in bed! [laughs] Love is real.

C: Love is real. The phone rings again, and Bobby goes, "I'm busy, you son of a bitch. This better be important." Agh, literally, he calls again! Right after. I love love.

G: [laughs] Do we sound so ridiculous? I mean all of this shit earnestly. [laughing]

C: [laughing] No, I mean it too. Except I probably think that getting divorced isn't that romantic. But the rest of it, I mean it.

G: No, I think getting divorced and then getting back together is romantic.

C: Oh, yeah. That's romantic.

G: You have to get married twice. That's where the romance is.

C: Exactly.

G: We go back to the room. Sam's there, and there is another Sam in there. It's Sam as in "After School Special" Sam. Oh my god! “A Very Supernatural Christmas” and “After School Special,” it's the same Sam?

C: Is it? No, it can't be. Wait, is it?

G: It says, it says.

C: Wait, okay, but the "Something Wicked" Sam was a different guy.

G: Yeah. But who does fucking- what does he even look like in the thing? Yeah, that is him.

C: Hi, Colin Ford. Is that his name?

G: Yeah. Hi, Colin. That's real nice. I did not connect that dot. I suppose he looked quite young, so.

C: This is the hallucination I started tearing up while watching, and the other two are the ones that you started tearing up while watching, so it's about the complexity of the human experience [both laugh] being the spectrum of times Supernatural's 4.21: "When the Levee Breaks" that you cry.

G: Exactly. And I want to reiterate, I did not tear up. I sobbed, so.

C: Right. You're right. That's another scale to think about.

G: Yeah, that's another one, yeah. It's young Sam, and he's like, "I'm a hallucination. And it's me, or I guess it's you." Sam is talking to his younger self in kind of like, a defeated way. Young Sam is just being like, "What happened? How could you do this to me? I thought we were gonna be normal." And Sam's like, "I tried. But, you know, didn't pan out that way. Sorry, kid."

C: Yeah. But he does sound quite sincere on like, "I tried. [G: Yeah yeah yeah.] I did." Like, he is looking up sadly and sounding hurt. [G: Yeah.] And like, he does sound sorry on the "Sorry, kid."

G: Young Sam says, like, "I mean, that's all you have to say? It's all we ever wanted, and we were so close to get away from Dad. You quit hunting. You were gonna become a lawyer and get married. Why'd you blow it?" And Sam says, "They killed Jessica." Which- [C: Yeah.] This entire conversation is like- [laughs] every single line is like, "Boom! Boom! Boom!" First of all, "You got away from Dad." specifically, not "You got away from them," like, Dean is not included in this equation, which is, well, that's something to me. [C: Yeah.] This kid is like, what? 12?

C: 14, Sam said.

G: 14. I mean, that's 4 years of your life you dream of getting out. [C: Yeah.] If Sam went to college at 18. Do we think he did?

C: Yeah, I think he would have applied as soon as he could. [G: That's true.] Though, you're right, it would take- it's possible that, like, he had to repeat some grades while growing up. I mean, we assume he was 22 in Season 1.

G: He's 22, dude. That's true.

C: No, that's true. 'Cause if he's 4 years younger than Dean, we have Dean's 26.

G: No, no, no, but also, like, Dean did say, "For 2 years, I didn't bother you." [C: Oh.] So maybe Sam went to community college.

C: Sam was a senior. Okay, so he started at 20-

G: Sam was a senior.

C: Wait, so Sam just fast-tracked through college, then?

G: No no no, yeah. Sam was a senior. He took the fucking thing and he was gonna be in law school next year-

C: He took the LSAT, but, well. Okay, he was going to law school next year for sure? 'Cause you can take the LSAT like, [G: Anytime.] earlier. So maybe he started college when he was 20 or something. [G: Yeah.] I think we're meant to think that he did the four years or whatever, though.

"You got away from Dad." "You quit hunting." is the next one.

G: "You quit hunting." which is, I mean, we've said in the past that Sam was like, "I won't have to quit hunting. I can just go to school," and it's John-

C: No no no, but he wants to.

G: It's John who was like, "No, you leave, you leave forever, for whatever reason. Don't ever come back to the hunting world." So, Sam, I think, like the "I'll still hunt" was kind of like, a concession for him. It was like, "Don't worry, Dad. I'm gay, [C laughs] but I'm not going to wear the gay earring," you know?

C: [laughing] Yeah.

G: So John replied, [both laughing] "You! You either- you either be straight, or you be gay with the gay earring." And he chose the gay earring.

C: Yeah. Yeah. But I think also, this episode puts a lot of focus on Sam like, always knowing, like, from a child, that there was something wrong with him. [G: Something wrong, yeah.] And I think in that case, like, he probably did want to quit hunting his whole life, because it's like, "If I leave this world where there are monsters into the normal world where there aren't, then I no longer am potentially a monster."

G: You know all that fucking conversation about like, Sam's like, [faux-emotional] "Ever since I was a kid, I knew." Who the fuck, when they're a child, doesn't think there's something wrong with them? [C laughs] No, sincerely. [C: True.] Like, I think every single person was like, "I was a monster when I was a kid."

C: I don't know if I thought I was a monster. I probably thought I was like, [both] a crepe and a weirdough. [G: Yeah.] [laughs] Yeah.

G: I think I've talked about this in a pod. I will talk about myself constantly [C laughs] on any occasion. [C: This is true.] But I think I've said that- [laughs] That's true. No, but like, I was talking about how like Sam didn't have friends the way Dean did or like, you know, Dean was closer to Bobby, Dean was closer to blahblahblahblah, and Sam probably felt very disconnected because of that. Because everybody seems to like Dean more. And it's like, I think that's part of the reason why Sam was like, "Something's wrong with me, because, like, people don't like me as much as they should." And his basis is like, how much they like Dean because Dean is the only other kind-of-his-age person in his life. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, Sam, have you considered that maybe Dean is just charismatic, and you're just a killjoy? [C laughs] Like, that's fine. Doesn't make you a monster, dude.

C: Yeah. I mean, also, like, do we have canon on like, when John started suspecting something was up with Sam?

G: [laughing] I thought you were like, "Do we have canon on if Sam is a killjoy [C laughing] when he was a kid?" I mean, he probably was. I don't know.

C: What? Sam as a kid was perfectly fine and nice. [G laughing] He literally- like all Samgirls, I'm saying, "He literally gave Dean the toy from the cereal!" [G laughs] Like, I don't know what issues you have with that kid. [G laughing]

G: Yeah. So Sam as a kid was canonically not that much of a killjoy. So yeah. I don't know. I mean, wasn't there this whole bit where John was like, following Sam in Stanford?

C: Yes.

G: So- but I mean, that's after he left, so that could very well may be, like, I don't know.

C: I feel like he knew pretty early on. I feel like Sam could sense that John treated him differently in like, a bad way. I think that could definitely cause you to think something's wrong with you.

G: Yeah. The problem with trying to summon like, facts about Supernatural is that there's Supernatural- especially like, with Sam and John and who knows what-when-where - like, there's the Supernatural TV show. And thenso much of like, the Supernatural comics or whatever, the whatever, the anime, [laughs] the journal, whatever, it's like, kind of very John- the seasons where John is present and centered, right? [C: Mm.] So there's also that to gather from. And then there's also just my head. So I don't ever know which ones are true. I have no idea. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] Supernatural is so long. It's so difficult to find anything about anything.

C: Yeah. I don't rember.

G: Yeah, then young Sam continues, like, "You were gonna become a lawyer and get married." 14- I mean, young Sam knows about Jessica. So we can assume that this is like, a future desire, the being a lawyer and getting married. But imagine like, being 14 years old, [laughing] and being like-

C: "I want to be a married lawyer when I grow up." [G laughs] Yeah.

G: No, I think maybe it's just like, "I want," you know, "a normal life." [C: Stable job.] And to Sam, a normal life is like, picket fence, get married. And maybe he really wanted to be a lawyer, ever since he was a kid. Like, I don't know. Maybe he saw a movie. What's a lawyer movie?

C: Legally Blonde? [laughs] When did that come out?

G: I love that the thing I was about to say was To Kill a Mockingbird. [both laugh] So that's the lawyer movies that you and I know collectively, is Legally Blonde and To Kill a Mockingbird, yeah.

C: Okay, Legally Blonde is 2001, so that's about when, like, Sam started at Stanford. [G: Yeah.] So maybe he was something else before he was pre-law, and then he saw Legally Blonde.

G: You know what? [laughing] Maybe he played Ace Attorney. Maybe he was like, "Let's move to the pre-law department." [C laughs]

C: Yeah, the nonexistent one.

G: As we said, Sam says, "They killed Jessica." [C: Yeah.] which is, it's fascinating that's the first one. That's like, the main reason. [C: Yeah.] I mean, it is the main reason because he did go back. He did go back.

C: Mm-hm. He was going to stay.

You bring up that like, Sam calls her Jessica nowadays, and young Sam calls him "Jess"- or, sorry. Young Sam calls her "Jess" here. Like, what does it mean?

G: Because I think the young Sam is trying to appeal to the emotional aspect. Jess as a person, not as an idea.

C: Yeah, Jessica's the name on the gravestone.

G: Young Sam says, "If you haven't ran off with Dean, you'd had been there to protect her, and she'd still be alive," which is- I think we have been talking about how like, Sam's perspective on being a hunter, your responsibility to the people you love [C: Yes.], blah blah blah blah blah. And like, this is like, you know, this is Sam's psyche manifesting that thought and telling it to himself. Like, something that I think he wanted to tell-

C: Jimmy and Adam?

G: Yeah. Something he wanted to tell Adam that was like, "Well, if John taught you how to be a hunter, you would have stayed with your mom, and she won't be dead." So. Young Sam, as Crystal said, "You think Jess would want you to turn into this? She loved you. You think she'd be happy you using her as an excuse?" Who give a shit? is my perspective. She's dead! Who give a shit? [laughs] Sorry. No, but seriously! "Do you think she would want this for you?" Who- she's dead! [laughs] [C: Yeah.] She doesn't want anything due to not being alive. [C laughs]

C: I mean, what with the afterlife in Supernatural, she may as well be looking down and frowning and shaking her head right now. [G: Exactly.] We don't know.

G: Every time I think about how in Supernatural, if they die-

C: Wait, didn't they say she was in Hell in Phantom Traveller? [laughs]

G: Oh my god, you're right!

C: Oh my god, Jess.

G: She's looking up, being like, "No, Sam, do it. You and I can be together here forever if you continue down your path of- I don't know. Something."

C: Yeah, no, I forgot about that part. Yeah, Sam's saying, like, "I know," with a clenched jaw about how like, he's responsible for Jess's death is a lot worse now that I remember that he knows that she is in Hell. And it's like, not because she was a bad person, just because she was killed by a demon who dragged her down to Hell or something. How the fuck does this shit work? [G: Exactly.] Like, Mary's in Heaven. Wasn't she killed in approximately the same way?

G: Yeah. And she was also a ghost for a very long time, except she was a benevolent ghost [C: Yeah.] because Supernatural's afraid of women who are murderous.

C: Letting Mary kill children 2K22, yeah. But okay, I guess it doesn't really matter what she thinks, but the point is that Jess was like, the symbol of normality, and like, his way out of the hunting life. [G: Yeah.] So it's like, "Well, now, you will never get out."

G: Sam says something that- this is like, the first line in episode where I go [gasps] [pained sounds] which is, "I'm sorry. I am. But life doesn't turn out the way you thought when you were 14 years old. We were never gonna be normal. We were never gonna get away. Grow up!" [C makes pained sound] [singsong] Oh, it's miserable! [C: It is.] It's because, like, you know, how like, a common thing people say is like, "If blahblah-years-old me would look at me now, they would be so proud." [C: Mm.] And it's like, yeah, [laughs] but also, your life can turn to complete shit tomorrow, and when 14-year-old you looks at that person, they'll be like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?" [laughs] So who knows?

C: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wait! Everyone should read "Thesis 5" by a_good_soldier on AO3.

G: What's that about?

C: It's- Sam's like, Stanford self- Sam is 37, and then his 20-year-old Stanford self comes back. And they talk.

G: Oh my god, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. [pained sounds]

C: Agh. I should reread that one.

G: Now, young Sam has become menacing. And he's like, "Maybe you're right. Maybe there's no escape. [menacingly] After all..." [laughs] I mean, he doesn't say it like that. But he says, "After all, how can you run from what's inside of you?" And there's like, a whole thing, where, like, he's flickering. He flickers from one place to another, whatever. [C: Yeah.] And his eyes turn yellow!

C: Hell yeah, baby.

G: Absolutely horrible effects, honestly. But you know what? Emotional impact-

C: Did it? [G: Yeah.] I thought it looked fine. I couldn't tell that there was an issue.

Yeah, no, Sam looks like, horrified at this. [G: Yeah.] And I think- Do you think that Sam likes to think that there was like, a before and after period for him? I think so. Like, 'cause like, he also gets really upset at Dean saying, like, "You always knew there was something wrong with you." I feel like as much as Sam is like, currently in a place where he's like, "My younger self is like, stupid, and he needs to grow up," like, first off, he doesn't really feel that. He's just like, trying to like, squash down the pain that he feels at disappointing his younger self. Also, I think he does like to think of his younger self as like, a- like, not like, "pure," but just like- like, that's a before period person. Like, he exists in my memories as he is, and like, he can't be changed by my present actions. [G: Yeah.] So I think that seeing the yellow eyes is like, a corruption of that idea. [G: Yeah.] Also, when he talks to that teacher in "After School Special," that guy asked, like, "Did you ever like, go off and do your own thing?" And Sam was like, "I did, for a bit. But then I-" Does he use "grow up" there as well? Yeah. Yeah. So Mr. Wyatt asked, "So you've managed to do your own thing, then, huh?" Sam goes, "Yeah, for a while, yeah. And I think I went to college because of you. But, you know, people grow up." So it's the same language. But like, I think that he does view like, the "for a while" as like, a respite. Like, a little bubble of time in his life, that, like, he can keep away from the rest. And also like, childhood him is like, a part of him he can keep away from the rest. But, like, you know. Now childhood him has yellow eyes, and it was- like, we were never gonna be normal. We were never gonna get away. It is very sad that the growing up language was used both times. Like, agh. You can still leave! Like, not now, I guess, 'cause you are in a situation, but, like, your dreams weren't stupid, and you should think about them again.

G: Yeah. The thing about Sam is he- I mean, we've talked about this before, but, you know, a lot of times when you are in a terrible situation or depressed, etc etc, the mindset tends to be like, "Oh, being hopeless," or, you know, "being sad, being blah blah blah is the mature [C: Yes.] perspective, and it's the- everybody else are like, deluding themselves by being happy."

G: Bobby comes back. Apparently, Rufus has been tracking a lot of omens. And, well, there's so many seals that are being broken recently, and also incredibly rapidly. They need 66 seals to break, right? [C: Yes.] And 666 are present, so. Yeah, it's horrible. And, I mean, later, it's revealed that like, there's like, two or three left or whatever, and Sam's like, "What the fuck are the angels doing?" And Ruby is like, "I don't know." And apparently, they DGAF, and we know why. It's because they want the Apocalypse to happen. [C: Mm-hm.] So Bobby's looking at this and he's looking at Dean and he's looking at this, and he goes, "Hey. [laughs] What if [C laughs] this is so important that this fucking domestic drama of ours is not really- it's not really the right time to be having it." Yeah, he says, "I don't like this any more than you do, but Sam can kill demons." Why do you not like that? I mean, I think it's a good thing to be able to kill demons. But whatever. "He's got a shot at stopping Armageddon." Dean says, "So what? Sacrifice Sam's life, his soul, for the greater good?" which, we've talked about it. [C: Booo.] "Is that what you're saying? Times are bad, so let's use Sam as a nuclear warhead?" And the thing is, if this is really the place where Dean is coming from, it's like, I understand. Except it's not. [C: Yeah.] It's not.

C: Yeah, if it's like, "The drinking demon blood is like, an action that Sam's doing to like, try to stop the Apocalypse that's like, hurting him, and like, I'd rather stop the Apocalypse," like, okay. I disagree with the actions, but I understand being against the drinking demon blood. But nah. But nah. That's not where he's coming from.

G: Bobby always does this, right? Like, "Look, I hate-" this is like, his usual speaking whatever. Okay, I have a question. Do you like Bobby? Do you care about Bobby?

C: I'm completely neutral on this guy.

G: Do people like Bobby?

C: Danica likes Bobby.

G: Is that for real?

C: Yeah.

G: Why? Danica, come here to the podcast. Come back and tell us why you like Bobby.

C: Like, he's nice, I think, was the extent of the reasoning. [both laugh] She also likes Ruby because she's nice and maintains this throughout watching up until the end of Season 7. And you know what? Real.

G: I mean, Bobby is constantly like, a neutral position in the show. Like, he exists to give information and to mediate, basically. So, I don't know. And I think he has his moments, but I just am not- I do not like Bobby. I don't hate him, but I don't like him. But you know what? He does feel embedded enough in the show that like, when he dies, it is a big deal, you know? 'Cause it's like, we are losing a part of the show. We're leaving something behind as we move to Carver Era. But yeah. All that, because he says, "I know you hate me for suggesting it. I hate me for suggesting it, too." [both laugh] He's so funny! And he says, "I love that boy like a son."

C: Like, no, you don't. You love that boy like a coworker.

G: [laughing] He literally loves that boy like a coworker.

C: Like, when he said that, I had to immediately pause so I could like, laugh and laugh and laugh for so long. Like, you don't.

G: The thing about Bobby is- I don't know. "I love Sam like a son." But like, a son that he kind of hates. [both laughing] Like, yeah, that's his kid, but he's like, "Ugh." [laughs] [C: Yeah.] That's like, his kid that he discovered was his kid like, later on in a kid's life.

C: Like, Sam is his Adam?

G: Yeah, Sam is his Adam. But instead of like, thinking, being like, "Oh, I shall be, like, a cool father because I'm trying to impart, like, a good impression on this kid," he's like, "I mean, he already grew up without a dad. I don't know why I need to be here. [both laughing] Like, he's fine." And that's Bobby's perspective in life.

C: [laughs] Yeah.

G: "All I'm saying is, maybe he's here right now instead of the battlefield [laughing] because we love him too much."

C: Like, wow! Like, god. Like, plenty of people do enact abuse, or like, specifically medical abuse, on people 'cause like, they think it's an act of love or whatever, but boy is it annoying to hear out loud.

G: [laughing] No, it's just that I don't think Bobby loves Sam. [laughs] And also, like, definitely this is not an act of- Okay, I retract that. I do think Bobby loves Sam. But-

C: Like a coworker.

G: Not like a coworker. Like, you're like, the kid of someone.

C: A nephew?

G: [laughs] Like a nephew. "The kid of someone." Yeah, just like a nephew! [C laughs] Yeah. Or like, the kid of your mom's oldest sister's first kid. You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] [both laugh] Like, that's- I mean, yeah. "I like him, but like, they're pretty distant, and we see each other once a year, and, like, I don't know. Recently, he's around more often, but eh." [C: Yeah.] Like, I feel like Bobby thinks of Sam as like, "There is an obligation of love here, and it comes from the 'we're family' thing." [C: Right.] Like, you know. He does think they're family, and he loves him like he's family, except sometimes you don't like your family that much, so.

C: I'm not sure about the obligation thing. Because when Dean comes back, isn't he like, "Bobby, what the fuck. Weren't you supposed to be looking after Sam the whole time?"

G: [laughing] He was like, "I don't know."

C: And Bobby- I don't know how Bobby responds. My understanding is that it's a "I did not know that was a requirement."

G: No, no, no, he was like, "I tried to, but I couldn't contact him. And he tried to go away." And it's like, yeah, that's reasonable.

C: That is reasonable. So I guess he does have that kind of familial obligation thing.

G: The thing is, I insult Supernatural as a show to hell and back about how like, oh, they're family, they don't really like each other that much, blah blah blah. Like, I remember, like, [laughing] when the Sam and Mary scene was happening, I thought to myself, "I cannot imagine having a conversation like this with any of my family." So like, who knows?

C: Who knows?

G: Anyway, now that we've mentioned that, you're with Sam and Mary.

C: Sam's vision's blurry, and like, he's trying to get to the pitcher of water that they left in the room, but like, he's too weak to move, which is another reason that someone should have been in the room with him if they were gonna do this. But whatever. But then Mary appears. And she's like, in, like, her death outfit, so the white nightgown and the bloodstain over the abdomen.

G: Why is this? Like, do you think they-

C: I mean, it ends with like, "Don't make my death-" like, or, "Make my death mean something," right, is how it ends?

G: Yeah. But like, do you think John was like, "Okay, Sam and Dean. And let's sit down and talk about how your mom died and looked when she died"?

C: Sam was there, looking up at the ceiling, and also-

G: He was six months old then!

C: - Azazel showed it to him in Season 2.

G: Oh my god, you're right! I'm so sorry, Sam, for ever doubting you.

C: Wait, did he cut away before the end?

G: No, no, no, I think Azazel showed the like, lifting Mary up and the ceiling, etc. So yeah, I think that's reasonable. Sorry, Sam. [C laughs]

C: So she says, "Poor baby." He notices her, and he goes, "Mom." which does make me emo that- yeah. I mean, of course he would call her "Mom," but it still matters to me that he calls her "Mom."

G: I mean, I think- I don't know if we've talked about this before, but like, Sam calling Mary "Mom" reminds me of how, like, Dean is the preserver of Mary's memory. [C: Yes.] More than John. 'Cause like, if John would talk to Sam about it, it would be like, "Mary was" or "your mom was." But like, Dean is the one who calls Mary, like, "Mom." And so probably, it was Sam who was like, "Hey, Dean. Can you tell us about our mom?" And Dean was like, "Oh, Mom, was blahblahblahblahblah." That's why- I don't know- he calls her like this. [C: Yeah.] It's just, all Sam knows of Mary is what he saw in the Azazel vision.

C: Yeah. He didn't even get to be in 4.03.

G: Yeah, he didn't even get to be there. Even that is told to him. Oh, Sam. Sam!

C: He'll get to meet her in "The Song Remains the Same," at least.

G: Well, yeah, also in Season 12. But-

C: That's true. That's way later, though.

Mary goes, "Sam, you look just awful." [laughs] She's so funny. Good for her!

G: When Mary says, "You look just awful," I was like, "See? She's just like any mother, for real." [both laughing]

C: No, literally. [laughing] She should've come in and been like, "I hate that haircut. Is there more acne on your face? It's because you're not sleeping like, early enough. [G laughs] Are you using that cream that I mailed you? No? Why not?"

G: [laughing] No, exactly. She should've been like, "What's wrong with your arm? Why do you have that rash? Are you taking your antihistamines?" [both laugh] Like, she should have said that.

C: And Sam goes, "Let's hear it. Go ahead. You're disappointed. You never thought I'd turn out this way. You should have raised a baby girl. I should have been a better son." [both laugh] He says, "I'm a piss-poor excuse for a son." He says, "Your heart is broken. Am I close?" Oh, I'm so miserable! [G: Yeah.] I'm so miserable. But yeah, I guess Uriel did say in 4.07 that like, "What you're doing is specifically, like, bad to your mom," right?

G: "Because it's what killed your mom," yeah.

C: And I feel like Sam's probably been having this feeling for a long time already. Like, yeah, "Am I breaking my mom's heart right now?" Agh. Sorry, Sam!

Mary says, "Not at all. You're doing the right thing, Sam." And Sam just looks up with so much surprise and like, naked hope that like, maybe he will receive comfort, and be like, redeemed in this moment. And it's a lot! It's a lot. She says, "What you're doing is brave. You're not being crazy. You're being practical. Sam, I am so proud of you." I don't- Do you think that he thinks Mary would actually think this, or is this mostly just his brain coming up with something to soothe him?

G: It's just- I think what it is is that there is like, the person who, if they said, "You're doing the right thing, Sam" that would soothe him the most [C: Yes.] is Mary. And so his brain is putting him in that situation.

C: Yeah, I agree. Especially 'cause he's recently gotten into that "You can only trust family" mindset, and, like, John is dead and hated his ass. Dean has just done this to him. So he has to conjure up Mary, like, the last person in his subset of people he can trust, in order to like, shape her words to, as you said, soothe him.

G: It is interesting that young Sam, Jessica is the topic, [C: Mm-hm.] but Jess is not part of the hallucinations. [C: Yeah.] I think maybe a part of it is that if Jess comes in and is like, "It is fine that you're doing this, Sam," [C laughs] like, even Sam's brain is like, "Nah." [both laugh]

C: Yeah. "I don't know about that one, folks."

G: [laughing] Like, when you're at night, and you're like, daydreaming about situations [C: Yeah.], and you're like, "No. That's too realistic, even for my fucking like, night daydreams."

C: [laughs] Yeah. For real. You've met Mary. What do you think she would actually think about this?

G: Honestly, I think she would be like, "Yeah." Mary in Season 12 is portrayed as incredibly practical and not as bogged down by like, moral obligations as dictated by family. [C: Right.] She fucks Ketch.

C: [laughs] I think working for the Men of Letters is much worse than drinking demon blood.

G: Yeah, exactly. Mary was also like, hiding things from Sam and Dean. [C: Yes.] Like, the gun thing was a situation. And also, like, [laughs] she doesn't know these kids. Like, she doesn't know these- And that's a whole- like, that's a big point in Season 12. That like, "I mean, when I left, I had a small baby and a toddler, and now you're, I don't know. 47?" [both laughing] I don't know how old Dean is! Yeah. However old Dean is, he's that old. And Sam is 4 years younger.

C: Like, 37?

G: 37. He's 37. [both laugh] Yeah. So yeah. And like, I don't know. We can talk much about, like, "What would Mary think? What would Mary think?" But the thing is, the Mary in Sam's brain who is his mother, who knows him and understands him and loves him, that's not the Mary of Season 12. But I think that that actually like, allows for a more, like, empathetic point of view. Because she's not seeing it like, a family issue.

C: Like, "My baby boy..."

G: Yeah, like, Dean is seeing this as like, "You lied to me, and we're family, and that's wrong." To Mary, it's like, "There's a guy here who drinks demon blood. I mean, doesn't look too bad." [C: Yeah.] But also, Mary of Season 12 exists in a completely different time than, you know, Sam and Dean right now. [C: Right.] And by that, I mean, like, she grew up at a different time, and also she is in a different time. So. Maybe 2009 was just a rough time for drug addiction in the United States.

C: I mean, it's currently still a rough time. It's always a rough time. [G: It's true.]

Sam goes, "But Dean-" and Mary says, "Your brother doesn't understand. I was raised a hunter from a long line. We understand that there are gonna be hard choices, and we do what we have to to get the job done." Which, I feel like, didn't you say like, very recently that- I feel like all the things that we were like, "And why does it Supernatural like, talk about this regarding Sam in Season 4?" like, all of them are happening in 4.21. Like, I feel like I brought up, "Hey, what about Jess?" And you brought up like, "Hey, what about Mary and the Campbells?" when Sam was talking about the Winchesters being cursed. And it's like, it's crazy that like, it seems like for this episode and the two before that, like, the scriptwriters maybe actually like, [G, laughing: Talked to each other? Yeah.] read each other's scripts [laughs] and actually worked to build something that was consistent and built up over time. Like, wow! That's a new high for Supernatural.

G: I think the thing about this episode is that neither- like, none of the other seasons prior felt like this when you were going into the last episode, you know? [C: Yes.] Like, Season 3, the penultimate Season 3 ep didn't feel like this. Season 2, no. Season 1, no. Absolutely not. This is the first one where it's like, "Okay, so we're gearing up for something." And it is fun. And if you told me, "This is the penultimate season," I would be like, "Yeah, that makes absolute sense." Like, they're doing this because that next season is going to wrap everything up in a big bow 'cause it's going to be the final one. And then it wasn't!

C: Yeah. Slaycation. She says, "Yes, our family is cursed, but you have the power to turn it into a gift. You can use it against them." Augh. Like, to Sam, like, the family curse always came from John and from being a Winchester, which meant like, an endless cycle of like, revenge and anger that he's been caught up in. And Mary's like, "Well, but you're also a Campbell. And like, we've been hunters for a long time. And like, we're practical. And we know how to like, use curses or whatever like this to our advantage." And that's- it's nice that Sam gets this. Despite all of your family, like, being dead or like, betraying you right now, like, there are all these people that you never got to meet who are your family still, and they would understand you [G: Awww, yeah!] and they would like, support this.

So Sam asks, "For revenge?" And Mary says, "No. For justice." Yay! Exciting! It gets to me. It gets to me [G: Yeah.] that, like, Sam's whole thing has been revenge for like, four seasons, but, like, Mary's like, "No, like, there is something else, and it comes from my people, and you can do it." And like- didn't I mention in our “It's a Terrible Life” recording that, like, Sam immediately wants to be a hunter, and he wants to do it because he wants to like, help people. [G: Yeah.] So there's like, this idea that, like, Sam without the Winchester upbringing would be like, a hunter for justice. [G: Yeah.] And like, this very hallucination is providing that perspective for him again.

G: Yeah. Like, "There is a reason why you're doing this that is removed from the toxicity of how you were brought up." [C: Mm-hm.] [both] Aww. Sam!

C: Sam. But even the the nicest hallucination is still gonna- yeah, Sam goes, "What's in me, Mom, it's..." and Mary goes, "Evil. And you know it." So we're not even- we're still not- we still don't have the the breadth of perspective that I would like from Supernatural regarding this. [G: Yeah.] And Sam goes like, "What if it's stronger than me?" And like, I think Mary is looking away, and he goes, like, "No, look at me. What if Dean's right?" But like, Sam is gonna contain Lucifer in his mind and then jump into that pit, right? Like, he is stronger than this thing that he considers evil right now, which I still don't know what it does to you, but apparently, it does something to you besides make you have powers or whatever. But yeah, yeah. Oh, Sam. And [laughs] Mary goes, "Dean can never know how strong you are because Dean is weak."

G: Slay! [both laugh]

C: It's so funny. And Sam does look kind of disbelievingly at her at this. I think this is his moment where his brain's like, "Even this daydream is a little unrealistic. Let's wind it back."

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

C: But she says that Dean locked him in here because he's terrified and in over his head, and Sam just has to leave him and kill Lilith on his own. And Sam says, just in a very resolved voice, like, he already knew this a year ago or whatever. He goes, "Even if it kills me." Mary goes, "Make my death mean something. I'm counting on you, Sam. Don't let anyone or anything get in your way, not even Dean." Augh. Yeah. 'Cause like, Mary's death and the way that's related to demon blood has been an idea throughout the season. And she's reiterating like, what he said in "Metamorphosis," which is like, "But like, there's demon blood inside me, and like, I can never scrub it out, but like, I'm trying to make the best of this situation." So yeah, reaffirming that shit. She like, strokes his hair and then kisses him on the cheek, and, augh.

G: Sam leans into it. I mean, it was- prior to that, she has been like, stroking his hair a little bit [C: Yeah, the whole time.], and he has been leaning into it. And yeah. [C: Yeah.] [both make sad sound]

C: [laughing] And now we cut to a totally different vibe. [G laughing]

G: Okay, I mean, the entire Mary and Sam scene, as I've said, made me really emotional because it's like, you know, everything we've talked about. This is Sam comforting himself with the thought of his mom. So I'm like, sobbing. I'm crying. [C laughs] I paused the video to be like, "Okay, I need to get myself together to be able to watch the rest of this episode," and eventually, I do. Very nice, very nice. I press play, and [C laughing] I am immediately bombarded by this weird sex foreplay that Dean and Cas are doing. [laughs] And I'm like, "What is happening?" [C laughs] Because, like, the thing is, I mean, I know this scene exists. I know that it exists in this episode. I went in knowing that this is gonna happen. The last time I think I've watched this scene was in a like, scrubbing through episodes trying to find it for an AMV or something, you know? [C: 'Course.] So when I last watched this, I was in a Destiel mindset. Like, I was already thinking of Destiel. So while watching it, I'm like, "Wow! What a thing!" But looking back to that, I'm like, "No, but like, I thought that because I was already in the mindset, right?" I already was thinking of Destiel. So of course I'm gonna think, "This is so Destiel" because I am thinking that of everything that I see of them at that point because it's the lens that I'm using to view it. But now that, like, you know, this episode is so serious and so much is happening, I'll probably be like, "Yeah, it's just a plot thing, and, you know, it's not like, Destiel. They're just talking. Whatever." I went in, and I'm like [C laughing], "This is- like, whatever this is is even more intense, sexual, and sensual [laughing] than I ever previously thought." [C laughing] Honestly, what the fuck? Why did they put it here? I mean, I know why they're put it here.

C: Yeah, like, it does have plot relevance.

G: Like, it is just such a wild, wild thing to put in an episode, honestly.

C: Yeah. I just- the lighting does a lot for Cas looking like the most devastatingly attractive guy around.

G: Yeah, I think I've talked about it before, right? The whole, like, they put Cas in the dark and quiet to be like, give him mystery, except it just made him more really hot.

C: - except it just seems like an illicit love affair. [both laugh]

G: Yeah. Also, we need to bring up here something that I brought up with you and you were like, "We need to talk about it in the podcast," which is the honeypot Cas theory. [C: Yes.] So to those unaware, I mean, it's not that famous of a theory, I think. It was just like, a couple of posts here and there, maybe. I'm not sure. But like, way back, I probably saw a post that was like, "Why was like, Cas the angel being sent in Season 4 of Supernatural?" Like, and the way he approaches Dean. We have the, you know, the meeting, where he's very like, excited to be there. You know, he's sweet, even. And then the second episode is like, well, [laughs] one of the most sexual scenes [C laughing] one of the most Destiel sexual tension scenes in Supernatural. And then after that, it's he's trying to connect to Dean, you know, he's trying to comfort him. He sends Dean to the past, and then that ends with him putting his hand on Dean's shoulder and, you know, they share this look, and it's real intense, and then he talks about his feelings. And it's like, okay, but like, was Cas, like, supposed to do this because he was supposed to win to win Dean's affections over? [C: Mm.] So yeah, that is something that has been bouncing around in my head. Like, what if Cas is a honeypot? Have you considered? Well, apparently we have.

C: Yeah. [laughs]

G: What do you think of this? Do you think it makes sense? Do you think-

C: I think it makes sense. I mean, the straightforward narrative is just that he got attached despite himself and his superiors pulled him back, whatever whatever. [G: Yeah.] But I do think that it's like, after they saw that Dean seem somewhat attached back, they were like, "We can use this."

G: "We can keep sending this thing." Yeah. I have been thinking about the fact that when Cas was kind of demoted because he quote, "likes Dean too much," and then they made Uriel, like, the lead, they still made Cas fucking tag along. In "On the Head of a Pin," Cas was still there. And Cas was still like, on Uriel's side, even though Uriel was doing all the talking when they first enter that motel room where they get the info, right? And it's like, what's the point of him even being in there? He says one sentence that like, Uriel cuts off immediately, right? The rest of it is like, Uriel can say that. Uriel can do that. Why is Cas here? And the reason why Cas is there is because Dean likes him and will probably be able to soften him up. When Dean was like, "Oh, I'll talk to Cas alone." And Uriel's just like, "Okay, I'll go. I'll head upstairs." [C laughs] And it's like, did they plan that shit? Were they like, "Oh, we're gonna have a good cop/bad cop, and then the good cop is gonna be Castiel 'cause Dean already likes him."

C: I think it's likely. Like, I mean, Dean agrees to do the torture because of how Cas tells him about it, and says there's no no other option, etc etc.

G: Yeah, and like, I don't know. Here, I mean, allegedly, Dean has been calling out for two hours. [laughs] And I'm thinking, like, "Okay, so what was happening in those two hours?" [C laughs] Were they like, "We can't send Castiel down there, 'cause like, last time he almost told Dean!" And they were like, "But who else are we gonna send? Do you think anyone else would Dean listen to? Like, who do you think could convince Dean to do this? [C: Right.] Only Castiel could." "Yeah, but he's fucking- wants to whatever!" [C laughs] So yeah. [C: Yeah.] I don't think Cas went in specifically instructed by Heaven to be like, "You're going in there because Dean will like you" or "to make Dean like you," but I do think at some point, the liking has been considered in the tactics. [C: Yeah.] Because, I mean, you know, "See, he has this weakness. He likes you." is like, a thing that Uriel says. So like, Heaven knows it for a fact. And like, pretty much before Dean even knows it. So like, I think they can also sense if Dean likes Cas even before either of them know it. Dean likes Cas, right?

C: I wasn't sure of it, but I think in this episode, I was like, "Yeah, I think so."

G: There's a line here where he says, "God, you're a dick these days."

C: Yes, exactly. And the fact that there's like, a former- that means that there's a former version of Cas that he liked.

G: I liked that line because it's kind of like- he's not saying like, "You should change your mind." He's like, "I understand that you can't, but good lord. I hate it." You know, he extends more generosity of thought towards Cas [both laugh] than Sam, like, this entire episode.

C: Yeah. Demons bad, angels good, I guess.

G: Yeah. Dean is in the, you know, the yard. Bobby's salvage yard. He is just standing there, and then, we turn around, Cas is there! He's under a lamp! He's under a lamp! [C: Yeah.] It's so cute! And yeah, as Crystal said, the lighting in this scene really does wonders for this guy. He is so beautiful. I forget that, like, a big part of why Cas appealed so much is because [laughs] he's just good-looking. [C: Yeah.] Like, Dean, have we considered this? He probably had. And also like, there's, like, fucking scrap metal behind him that looks like a wings! It's so cute!

Dean is like, "I've been here two hours. I've been screaming," whatever. And Cas is like, [Australian? accent] "Well, what can I do for you?" [both laughing]

C: [laughing] What? What? Why did you do that? Yeah. Why not?

G: He says, "What do you want?" And Dean says, "Well, you can start with what happened in Illinois." And yeah, Cas is pretending he doesn't know what the fuck Dean is talking about, but Dean is like, "You know what it is. Like, you, I don't know, disappeared on me."

C: Cas says, "It was nothing of import." [G: Yeah!] Which I love, I love when Cas says import. It's great. [G: Exactly.] And he looks- yeah, like, he's walking towards Dean while he's talking, and he has his like, hands in his pockets, [G: Yeah.] and he's like, looking over his shoulder a bit like, while he's walking, and it's sort of like a "I don't want Heaven to hear" but also like a "Look, I'm so casual. I'm so casual. Like, it's not even a big deal what you're talking about" thing. [G: Yeah.] It's great!

G: And Dean goes, "You got ass-reamed in Heaven, [both laugh] but it was not of import?" And Cas says, "Dean." And then he does the turning your shoulder thing that you mentioned. Like, he's looking behind his back. And then he faces Dean, and he just goes, "I can't. I'm sorry."

C: Ah! Look at those big, sad eyes.

G: This is like- it's crazy. We have so many like, reaction shots of Dean, I think uncharacteristically so. Do you think Robert Singer was Destiel truther [C laughing] from the very beginning? Like, what's happening, for real? Why are they so close together? Why did they hire a crane? [laughing] Like, that's crazy.

C: Literally! Like, that's a lot of money, I'm pretty sure.

G: [laughing] Why did they hire a crane? Oh, god! Well.

Cas says- he starts walking away. [laughing] I love how every time Cas is in a scene, we will just talk stage directions [C laughs] to hell and back. But Cas starts walking away so his back is towards Dean, and Dean's following him with his eyes, and he goes, "Get to the reason you really called me. It's about Sam, right?" which is a line in my-

C: In your "Your Dog" AMV.

G: We keep on bringing this shit up, but that truly is a fucking AMV of all time. [C laughs] I am unsatisfied with some of the cuts in that thing, so maybe I'll remake it.

C: Rework it? Yeah. Could be fun.

G: Hell yeah. Dean asks about if Sam can actually stop the Apocalypse and all that crap. Cas says, "Possibly, but, as you know, he'd have to take certain steps." And he turns back to look at Dean with his so- his eyes are so wet. [C: Yeah.] [both laughing] What is going on with this guy? Like, what did the makeup department do to Misha Collins?

C: I don't know. Maybe it was allergy season?

G: Exactly. Like, this whole time, we're like, "Cas's so wet, pathetic eyes." And it's like, there's just dandelions, you guys. [C: Yeah.' But okay, Cas says here, "Consuming the amount of blood that it would take to kill Lilith would change your brother... forevah."

C: That's not true, though, is it? It didn't happen. Yeah.

G: He got rebooted a little bit, right? [C: Huh.] Like, at the end of Season 4, they were gonna get like, light, whatever, that thing. And then he got rebooted. [C: Okay...] And like, I think they mentioned it in Season 5, Episode 1 that like, "Oh, I got rebooted."

C: Well, Cas gets rebooted.

G: Cas gets rebooted. Sam gets rebooted. They end up on a plane.

C: Sam also gets rebooted? [G: Yeah.] Oh. Huh. I don't follow enough Samgirls. [G: Yeah.] Should've known that. Okay, so it is true, then?

G: What do you mean "it is true"?

C: That consuming the amount of blood it would take to kill Lilith would change Sam forever, he just gets rebooted so he's fine.

G: I mean, I don't know if it's true, because we don't have forever to find out, but-

C: That's true. And Cas is currently very much under Heaven's thumb during this convo.

G: Yeah. Do you think he's lying? [C: Um-] Because I feel like him being like, "Dean. I can't." That's not a lie.

C: Yeah, but that's when he's facing Dean and walking towards him in his like, secrets voice. But when he turns back around and like, goes back to his normal voice, it's his like, business-as-usual thing. [G: That's true.] So like, I don't think he's in the same mode as he was in the "Dean, I can't." [G: Yeah, that's true.] Like, probably the "Dean. I can't." was like, kind of a warning about the rest of what he was gonna say.

G: Yeah. Like, "Dean. I can't." is kind of like, his fourth wall break [C: Yeah.] from his performance of being the Angel Castiel, here to deliver information.

C: Right. But I don't- I guess there's no reason that it would be untrue. I mean, the reason would be that like, this is the thing that Cas and Heaven know would cause Dean to finally agree to take up the mantle. But like, I think for the Supernatural that it makes sense that that would be the case. [G: Yeah.] Also, like, don't Sam's eyes turn black in 4.22?

G: Yeah, I think so.

Anyway, Cas says, "Most likely Sam would become the next creature that you would feel compelled to to kill." [C: Boo!] nd then he starts doing this thing where he just keeps on saying Dean's name. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Yeah. He goes, "There's no reason this would have come to pass, Dean. We believe it's you, Dean. [C: Dean.] Not your brother." [laughs] Cas read like, a seduction-

C: I think he read like, a flirting manual. [both laugh] Yeah, exactly.

G: He picks up a Cosmo magazine, and he was like, "Okay, how to get him to have rambunctious sex with you [C laughs]-" Do people still say rambunctious? [C laughs] Whatever. It was 2009. They probably did. "- under 5 easy words." So yeah. He says, "We believe it's you, Dean, not your brother. The only question for us is whether you're willing to accept it. Stand up and accept your role. You're the one who will stop it." And at this point, he is back to like, facing Dean.

C: Oh, yeah. He's walking closer and closer on the "We believe it's you, Dean." shit.

G: And we get reaction shots, right? Like, Cas face, Dean face.

C: I don't know. I only took screenshots of Cas. Probably Dean was there.

G: No, but like, my point is, we don't notice first how they're standing. [laughs] [C: Oh.] And then we get like, an outside shot [laughing] of both of them together, and they are so close together. It's so funny! [C: Yeah.] We're back to reaction shots. And it's like [laughing], there's just this- [laughs] I'm so sorry. There's just this shot of Cas just looking at Dean, and it's like, "What is happening?" Wait, I'll screenshot it.

C: The one I sent you?

G: [laughing] It's a- Yeah, the one you sent me. This one. What is this? [C laughs] What is- Like, sincerely, what's going on? [C: I don't know!] Like, who is this? Why are you looking at him like that? The audience can't even see it. He's just looking at Dean, and he has a chin, is what's happening. [laughs] Honestly, not to give Misha Collins- well, anything. [C: Yeah.] But he literally went into that studio and was like, "I'm going to be gay today in front of this camera." [C: Yeah.] And he was.

C: Yeah, that is appreciated. If only he could do anything else right.

G: Dean says, "If I do this, then Sammy doesn't have to." And Cas says, "If it gives you comfort to see it that way." [C laughs] Which is well, one, an insane thing to say. And two, an insane thing for Dean to hear and be like, "Okay." [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] What is Dean doing? What is he doing? I mean, it's like, a desperation thing, right? [C: Yeah, he's desperate.] He's desperate to find anything. Like, at this point, Cas can say anything and be like, "Will this work? I don't know. Probably, but maybe not." [C laughs] He'll still be like, "Well, let's try that, probably." [C: Mm-hm.] But it's a big ask. It's not like, Cas is asking like, a small exchange for this.

C: We also, as I said, have no idea what it is Dean's actually supposed to do, though.

G: And that's the big reason why it's such a big ask. If there was a clear outline, a clear contract of what is going to go down, then it's like, "Yeah, okay, we can define the risks." But here, it's like, "Sure. Whatever, man." And Dean says, "Oh, god, you're a dick these days," which, again, is like, the-

C: He's enough of a presence and personality in Dean's life that there are versions of him that Dean has different opinions on. Like, that's something.

G: Yeah. And then Dean walks away.

C: They fuck nasty.

G: [laughs] No like, earlier, when Cas walks away, Dean is like, over his shoulder. And now, Cas is over Dean's shoulder. It's a whole thing. [C laughs] This is like, the only scene where we go this in-depth with the fucking whatever. But it's really is so important. This is vital. It's vital [both laugh] to talk about this scene. I mean, maybe not every Cas scene ever, but like, this scene specifically, it's crazy. Dean says, "Fine. I'm in." And Cas is like [laughing], "You give yourself over wholly to the service of God and his angels?" [C laughs] which is truly a crazy statement. And, I mean, I'm sure Dean is going through a lot mentally in this scene [C laughs], but I'm so mad at him, and I do not give a shit. [C: Yeah.] So let's just focus on how fucking weird the fucking words here are. But yeah. Dean is just like, "Yeah, exactly." And Cas goes, "Say it."

C: Um. [laughs] Well. [both laugh]

G: Oh. Well. [C: Well.] Yeah, Dean is like- turns around kind of disbelievingly, like, "Are you really gonna make me do this?" And Cas just looks at him. Well, again, this face is like, what are we doing here like? Like, what are we doing here? [C laughs] Well, honestly, what are we doing here? Wait, [laughs] I'll screenshot it again and I'll send it to you, 'cause it's craazy. Like, what- Every single face Cas makes in this scene, he looks like he is so sad, and he's about to cry. [C: Aww.] There's so much distress in all of his life.

C: I mean, he does not want this for Dean. [G: Yeah. That's true.] And he is the one to lead him into it by manipulating his misguided concern for Sam and all that shit. [G: Yeah.] So he is sad. It's a sad moment for him.

G: Yeah, he is the serpent in this situation. You know what I mean? Like, the whole point is to like, tempt Dean to fucking get here. So yeah. [laughing] Maybe Cas is a honeypot. Who knows? [C: Yeah.] Dean starts walking back, and he goes, "I swear." [laughs] I mean, "I give myself over wholly to serve God [both] and you guys." [C laughs] Cas continues the oath, which is, "You swear to follow his will and his forward as swiftly and as obediently as you did your own father's."

C: What is this?

G: Cas says, "Now, it's personal." [laughs] And he made it personal, baby!

C: Yeah. He's been on Earth for 2000 years, but the only models of fatherhood he studied in depth were like, [both] God and John Winchester, and he was like, "That's just normal. Like, I put this in all of the oaths that I make people make 'cause I just assume that their dad was like John Winchester."

G: Actually, this entire scene, Dean also looks like- you know, he's like, distressed a little bit. He's apprehensive. And, you know, for obvious reasons. This is a big ask, and he's saying a big yes. And this is the part where he like, puts his game face on, and he just goes, "Yes. I swear. Now what?" And Cas is like, "Whatever." We keep on going, Cas is looking at him but really, Cas is looking at him. But yeah. Dean goes, "Now what?" And Cas just goes, "Now, you wait, and we call you when it's time." And then [laughs] they're standing so close together, staring at each other. [C: Yes.] And the camera, like, just stays there, and it starts to zoom out. [C: Yes.] And if you thought they were standing close together, [C laughs] wait until it zooms out and shows you all of this free space they have [C laughing] in this fucking yard. It's so funny! And like, they just stand still for a long time, and then Dean shifts a little bit, like, looks down a little bit. And you're like- Cas is still just standing there. And we have said this over and over again in the past, that whenever Cas talks, he is so efficient. [C: Mm-hm.] He gets there, he says his piece, sometimes, he doesn't even give a shit what the other party says. And he's out. He's out. [C: Yes.] He teleports just out of there immediately.

C: Every Cas scene ends with him like, disappearing, basically.

G: Yeah. And in this scene, it's like, we're waiting for him to disappear, and he just stands there and looks at Dean. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] And it- I think, well, one, maybe he's waiting for them to fuck nasty. [both laugh] We need to take this seriously. Or do we?

C: Yeah, he's like, "Cosmo Magazine says, step 5, we fuck nasty. Like, is it happening?" [G laughing]

G: No, but I think what they're trying to convey here, aside from "these two are gonna fuck at some point in the show" [C laughs] is Cas is waiting for something. And like, maybe he feels like he hasn't said enough yet, and so he's here. 'Cause every single time, like, Cas leaves when he's said everything he wants to say, and now he's still here, meaning that he probably still wants to say something, except, you know, "Dean, I can't."

The thing is like, have you noticed how we didn't even talk about anything substantial about Cas's emotions in this scene? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, I mean, what emotions? He has big, wet, sad eyes. [laughing] Didn't I say he's literally too hot for me to like, think about him in depth, because when I'm like, "What does Cas feel?" and his face appears in my mind, and I'm like, "Oh my god. I need to fuck that." [laughs] and then that's it.

G: No, but like, I mean, I was also- earlier, we were waiting in the call, I was like, "Okay, but how are we gonna talk about Cas?" 'Cause like, we kind of know how we're gonna approach Dean and Bobby and Sam. So like, "Okay, but like, how about Cas?" And it's like, I don't know. He has a scene later with Anna, but even that is like, it's kind of nothing.

C: It's not nothing, but-

G: It's not nothing in the Anna part.

C: Yeah, my thoughts in that scene were just for Anna.

G: Yeah. But the Cas part is like, [laughing] is he also a honeypot for Anna? What even is going on? [C laughs] I mean, what it is is like, if any other angel calls Anna, Anna would be like, "Oh, I'm definitely gonna get into trouble," but she trusts Cas to not get her into trouble, and then he does. And it's because they have a- they have a rapport. Is Cas just their go-to rapport guy? [both laugh] Like, is it like, "We need to get on Heaven side," and they're like-

C: Yeah, "His autistic swagger has everyone swooning. Like, let's get Cas in here."

G: Well, that scene is over, and I'm exiting the fucking VLC Media Player of Supernatural Season 4, Episode 21 that [laughing] I only pulled out for that scene so I can say the exact blockings [C laughing] one scene at one fucking movement at a time.

C: Soo true. And by VLC Media Player, you mean legal site Netflix [G laughs] where, suddenly, Supernatural is available on Netflix Philippines! It just is. Don't think about it.

G: Don't think about it.

C: We're back at the panic room. And Sam is seeing like, his veins turn black and the color like, spread across his hands and up his arms. And then he looks in the mirror, and then, like, they're spreading through his face as well. He just does not enjoy seeing this, and he's calling out for help. We cut up to Bobby and Dean, who are hearing all of this, but still having a regular conversation.

G: Yeah. I do think that even if Bobby doesn't bring it up or anything, like, Dean is already having the thoughts of, "Maybe this is a bad idea." [C: Yeah.] Because the first time that we pan out, and Sam is screaming, it's also to Dean's face first, [C: Right.] and in that one, it's like, he's steely, and he's like, "Oh, how long is it gonna go? How long is it gonna be like that before he's back?" And, you know, that one is kind of like a "He's still very resolved in his anger." He's like, disconnecting himself from the situation that like, "That's not Sam who's screaming, so I don't give a shit." But this one, the pan here is like he's starting to think, like, "Uh-oh. That is actually Sam screaming, I think."

C: Yeah, okay. I think that he is more aware that it's Sam, but I don't think that he's having second thoughts about this course of action, I think he's more like-

G: Oh, yeah, the "uh-oh" is not like, about the action. [C: Yeah.] It's just like, "Someone in there is suffering," yeah.

C: "This is gonna be unpleasant for me while I medically abuse Sam!"

G: Yeah, while drinking alcohol.

C: Yeah. So Bobby goes, "What? Like, you willingly sign up to be the angels' bitch?" And okay, it's transcribed as angels' with the apostrophe after the S, so like, the multiple angels's bitch. But he just says it as angels', which does sound like an l-apostrophe-s. And given that like, we just saw that go down with Cas, like, well. [G: Slay.] That was sex.

G: [laughs] I mean, the thing is, if that scene happened in any other episode, we would probably do a bit more focus on the like, "Why is it kind of like, a sexualized aspect?" blah blah blah blah, "What does it-" It's just [laughing] I hate Dean so much this episode, and I just- I cannot spare him any thought. Is that bad? Should we-?

C: No. I mean, [laughing] I say that all the time. I think you're allowed to say that, too.

G: Well, yeah. [C: Yeah.] That's happening.

C: And then Bobby goes, "Sorry. Do you prefer sucker?" This is how you- this is how you use gender-affirming language [both laughing] for your trans family, coworkers, and friends.

Okay, sucker's a sexual thing. [G laughs] [G: That is, yeah.] Sucker is like, you're blowing Cas, and bitch is like, he's fucking you in the ass? [G: Yeah.] Yeah. Maybe he's just like, "Oh, sorry. I don't know if anal's something you do. Let's switch to a different sex act that I described."

G: [laughing] Wait, that's so funny! Are you the angel's bitch? And then he looks at Dean's face and is like, "Mm, maybe wrong. Sucker?" [both laughing] And he's like, "Mm. Is it just a handy? What's going on?"

C: Is he your handler? Yeah.

He's surprised that Dean would trust the angels now, and Dean's like, "Uh, no, I don't. They come on like shady politicians from Planet Vulcan." [G: Real.] I don't know Star Trek so good, but I think like, Cas and Spock are brothers in a way, right?

G: No, that's the- Yes, it's true. I saw this Tumblr post once like, "Cas is definitely like Spock, and Dean is kind of like Kirk, but not for the reasons he thinks he is. For other reasons." [both laugh] and I agree with that completely. But I do find it fascinating. Because the angels Dean has seen, specifically the ones that, like, he is talking about here, so excluding Anna, is Cas, Zachariah, Uriel, right? And like, Uriel and Zachariah definitely do not act like Vulcans. Like, at all. So like, this is purely a Cas thing. [C laughs]

C: Zachariah definitely acts like a shady politician.

G: Yeah. But Cas is the only one who acts like a Vulcan. And not like- I don't mean like, "like Spock." I mean, like, "like a Vulcan." 'Cause the whole- there's a whole speech thing going on with that one. Yeah. So.

C: Okay. Yeah.

G: I don't know. [laughs] I find it fascinating that he like, Cas is like, his main, like, vision of an angel, I suppose.

C: First one and all that.

G: And he says "they." [laughing] He/they rights for Castiel. [C laughs]

C: For real. And Dean says that he had to do it 'cause there was no other option. "It's either trust the angels or let Sammy trust a demon." He Sammy-s a lot this episode. 'Cause he does it to Cas, too. Like, he says, "Oh, if I do it, Sammy doesn't have to." And like, first of all, you've lost Sammy rights. And secondly, I think it's another way to distance the Sam in the basement from the like, pure, good Sammy kid brother in his mind.

G: No, no, no, no. [C: No?] I think it's the opposite. I think it's Sammy is the little kid

and Sammy is the baby [C: Yeah, that's what I-], and a baby, you have power over [C: Mm.] to dictate their actions. So it's- I don't think it's like, separating like, that Sam to Sammy.

C: Okay. Like, current Sam is Sammy-

G: It's like, imposing that authority, yeah, of like, "You're a little kid who doesn't know what he's doing, and I am the big brother who knows what's up."

C: Yeah. Doesn't he know he's literally shorter than Sam? Like, maybe he should think about that.

G: [laughs] He's literally- what does he call him the other time?

C: Ginormo?

G: That's literally Ginormo, Dean. What are you doing? [C laughs]

C: Bobby is like, "Okay, I see your point." And then they notice that there hasn't been pained screaming for "help" and "stop" in the basement, and they're like, "Oh, I think something's up. Let's go down and check." Which, yeah, logical, but does mean that it's been like- it's like, five seconds not screaming. So it means it's been nonstop pain. [G: Yeah.] Like, even during the Mary hallucination? Like, what-

G: Probably not, but like, during the Mary hallucination, Dean was apparently outside [C: That's true.] doing something with a crane, and Bobby [C laughs] DGAF, so.

C: Yeah. So they go downstairs, and they look in, and Sam's having a seizure on the floor. And Dean goes, "What if he's faking?" And Bobby goes, "You really think he would?" And Dean goes, "I think he'd do anything." Like, fuck off.

G: The thing is, if someone has stayed there with Sam, I think you will know, like, that he's not faking. And if he was, you will know also, you know? [C: Yeah.] 'Cause you're seeing him. And this "is he faking?" thing is caused by the fact that, like, [laughs] Dean is looking into this room for like, the first time, you know? [C: Yeah.] He doesn't know what the like, usual current state of Sam is.

C: Yeah. And it's like, "He's faking so that we open the door and check on him, and then he'll escape." Like, I mean, this is due to the fact that you locked him in a room without his consent. Like, the fact that he would have to fake in order to escape you doing this to him is maybe something you should think about!

G: Also, he was screaming, like, the whole time, right? [C: Yeah.] So, I don't know. It's- [groans] Horrible! And it is horrible.

C: Yeah. They're like, "This is no cause for concern. He's just going through hallucinations, and we think that leaving him there to deal with that all by himself is the right thing to do."

G: With a fucking bucket on the floor, yeah.

C: Yeah. And he can't reach the water that he wants to drink, 'cause he is too weak, but, you know, whatever.

G: I mean, you're not gonna kill him because of the fucking, like, actual withdrawal symptoms. [laughs] Like, he's gonna die of dehydration first at this point. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's sweating buckets right now. Like, he needs water. Ugh. Whatever.

Sam starts- like, it's like an invisible force that's like, throwing him against the wall and stuff. And at this, they're like, "Okay, he can't fake that, so let's go inside now," which means that they would have stayed or left if it wasn't this. Because Dean says, like, "I think he'd do anything." And Bobby is just like, "Yeah, agreed, bud." Like, ugh!

G: I'm just thinking of like, a situation where Sam dies and he's just lying there, and Dean is like, "Oh, is he really dead? Or is he just faking it?" [C laughs]

C: But whatever. People can become better people, and I think that Dean has the chance. But I don't think he does become a better person [laughs], so, thanks, Jenny!

G: Well, I think there are going to be more breathing room for him in the future. But you throw him in an intense situation, and it's always gonna be like this. And the situations will change in type, and also the subjects of his horribleness will change. [C: Mm.] Honestly, sometimes it's like, "Maybe it's good that Cas becomes a permanent in this show," 'cause at least [laughs], like, there's someone to share the burden of Dean. [both laughing]

C: Yeah, like, Sam gets yelled at 50% less 'cause Cas is getting yelled at the rest of the time. [G: Yeah.] And, you know, Cas isn't there a lot of the time, so a lot of it goes to his voicemail [G laughs], and Dean feels better after, and Cas deletes that shit.

G: [laughing] Yeah, exactly. He has no bars. He doesn't even receive it!

C: [laughing] Yeah, he's in Heaven. It's not going anywhere. [both laugh]

Ugh. This is a very cynical interpretation of Team Free Will, but it feels correct in this moment because Dean is a piece of shit right now.

G: Yeah.

C: So like, they go in. They have to pin Sam down. They have to get like, a belt between his teeth, so he doesn't like, bite like, his mouth off or whatever. And then they like, secure him to the bed with like, chains and belts and shit to prevent him from being thrown around the room, etc etc. Bobby says, you know, "We gotta tie him down for his own safety." And Dean says, "Let's just get it over with." [hisses] [G: Yeah.] Hatred and also biting.

When the hallucination starts, like, when Sam wakes up, like you said, you think that it's real Dean, and like, I thought it was real Dean. And I like, wrote down like, in my notes, like, "I'm glad they had someone waiting for him to wake up because to wake up chained up like that with no explanation, [G: Is absolutely terrifying, yeah.] no window, knowing your screams will be ignored, will be so terrible." But no, they literally did leave him down there to wake up alone!

G: They left him alone to wake up alone and [laughing] to the point that Sam's brain made a Dean-

C: Yeah, to come up with a explanation to make him feel better so he doesn't lose it!

G: Sam wakes up. Dean is there. He tugs at his chains, and Dean just goes, like, "We had to. Demon blood flinging you around the room." And then he goes, "Tell me something, Sam. Why did you do this to yourself?"

C: Yeah, you had a pretty positive interpretation of that line. I think I immediately just got angry at the way that blame was being assigned in the sentence.

G: I mean, yes.

C: But you're right that for Dean, [G: For Dean, trying to reach out.] this is a step forward. [G: Yeah.] 'Cause he never let Sam explain before.

G: Sam goes, "You know why." And Dean says, "Yeah. Kill Lilith, right? The big excuse. But why? What? Revenge? Right?" And Sam says, "Of course."

C: Which, like, did the Mary scene mean nothing to you? I thought we were doing something there. [laughs]

G: I mean, this is like- [laughs] you have to remember that, like, these are hallucinations. And these are like, different parts of Sam's psyche talking back to him, you know? [C: Yeah.] Like, this is like, a different train of thought that he's running with in this one. [C: Mm.] And that one is a different train of thought that he's running with, so. [C: I suppose so.] Yeah. And Dean is like, "Revenge for what? For sending me to Hell? Did you happen to notice I'm back? Alive and kicking. So what's the point?" And like, this line is like, I think it's nice. Because it's like, you know, because if the plea is like, "Sam, please stop doing this," which, well, that's kind of the plea. The kind version of the plea that Dean is doing. Having this conversation of like, "Why are you doing it? For this? Well, you don't have to do it for that," you know. It's like, I think that is an approach to do it that isn't- You know what? 'Cause I was like, "It's a better approach," but like, [laughing] any approach is better than [C laughs] whatever the fuck this is. But it is a better approach.

C: Though, I mean, I don't know if this is like- if this hallucination is like, trying to convince Sam not to do it. I think it's just like, "I'm gonna force you to admit that the real reason-"

G: Admit that you just want to be important and blah blah blah. [C: Mm-hm.] "But actually, you're a monster." No. That's what it turns out to be. [C: Right, but currently, right.] But like, Dean's face is different in this scene. Like, he is actually looking at Sam, talking to Sam,

asking him questions. Like, Dean has not asked [C: The bar is so low.] a single question about this! [laughs] So, like, yeah. Bar is on the floor. This is like, a conversation they're having. And like, you know, at least they're talking, and it seems like it's an actual conversation, not just bullshit. And then Sam goes, "Point? How about stop the damn Apocalypse." And then we zoom out, and he's alone, and I just pause the episode. I start crying so hard. [C: Mm.] It's because we have that whole thing about the "Metamorphosis" where it's like, "How could I even explain to you? It's not like you can understand." and then Dean not asking questions. And it's like, here in Sam's brain, as I've said, Dean is like- he is giving Dean the benefit of the doubt of like, "Oh, Dean is trying to reach out," whatever. [C: Mm-hm.] But also, he is explaining himself. Like, for real. He's saying that like, "Yeah, it is revenge. But also, like, there are other things at stake here. So who cares if the main motivator is revenge? There are other motivators, and they're good." I don't think Sam, in like, quote "real life" would do this, like, prior to the events of what's happening right now. Later, he does attempt to, right? But do you think Sam, if Dean hasn't discovered and volunteered the information, would explain it to Dean like this? Well, he wouldn't volunteer the information. [C: Yeah.] If him and Dean had a conversation in that car before Bobby called, I don't think Sam would bother with this kind of shit. As I've said then, it's like, he was just like, "Oh, let's just get it over with. Do you want to punch me?"

C: Well, he goes, "Do you want to punch me?" blah blah blah, and then Dean says no, and then Sam goes, "Okay. Well, can you at least let me explain." I think that he would have said the same stuff.

G: He would have said, "It's for revenge"? It's the Apocalypse.

C: I think he would bring up the Apocalypse first. But I think that- I don't know. They're pretty comfortable talking about revenge in this family. I think it would come up if Dean asked a followup question, at least.

G: Yeah. [laughs] I feel so bad for Sam. [C: Yeah.] And I mean especially because Season 5 happens, it's a lot, and he goes down that pit. Season 6 happens, he's a different person. [C: He's soulless.] He's soulless. And Season 7, [laughs] he's going through some shit yet again. And then-

C: Oh yeah, he's in that hospital. He's going through- what? Like, Lucifer sickness or whatever the fuck?

G: Or whatever shit, yeah. [both laugh] And then Season 8 happens, and he is back as much as he could be. This is Sam. This is like, the first time he's like, Sam again without the heavy stuff happening, pretty much, you know?

C: Right, he gets some breathing room.

G: We get some breathing room. And, I mean, that season ends with [laughs], well, "Sacrifice." But he gets to breathe. He gets to live a life, even. And then we see him, like, be Sam, but he becomes different. He becomes a lot more quiet. 'Cause like, I mean, you could say a lot about Season 1 to 3 Sam, but he speaks his mind, you know? [C: Yeah.] He says things. Season 8 onwards Sam, I do not see him as that. I see him, actually, as the Sam at the end of this episode, just trying to steal the knife away from Dean, just trying to be like, "Dean, don't kill Ruby. Dean, please, let's just talk. Dean, I'm going to appeal to you as kindly as and calmly as I am." And like, yeah, that's good, and for some people, that's like, a sign of development. Sign of maturity, even. I can't help but feel that for Sam, it's more of a "I understand the danger, now, of actually expressing myself [C: Mm.] the way I would like to." Like, if I'm angry- 'cause like, anger is often portrayed as like, a negative emotion, right? But like, you can express anger. You can be angry in ways that are fine, you know? [C: Yeah.] Like, you don't have to break things or shout or whatever when you're angry. In the future, I feel like even that, Sam has to be like, "No, but I can't do that, because even just a singular misstep into being 'bad' is already too much. Even just a little bit. Even an emotion like anger, which is not inherently bad, but can lead to bad things, I can't experience anymore, just in case." You know? [C: Yeah.] And I don't know. Maybe I'm misremembering the future seasons. I mean, there's a lot of them, and, you know, it's different for every single one, probably. I don't know. But like, Sam does change. I feel like a lot of future seasons, Sam will remain stuck being the Sam at the end of this episode, you know?

C: [makes sound sound] I mean, the Sam at the very, very end of this episode is pretty neat, but yeah, the one trying to talk Dean down is sad. It's a sad situation.

G: Yeah. We go back to the hallucination, and Dean is saying, "Oh, this stopping the Apocalypse is my gig, not yours. The angels said so, remember? God picked me, man. [C laughs] So you got any other fantastic excuses? Hmm?" [both laugh] He said, [dramatic] "God said it's my turn to stop the Apocalypse!"

C: Yeah.

G: So we go to the living room, and Bobby and Dean are talking again, and Bobby is saying, "Okay, Dean. [laughs] So like, let's reconsider. Like, are we actually sure that what we're doing is the right thing?" Dean is like, [laughs] "Bobby, you saw what's happening down there. The demon blood is killing him," which we have said, like, there are ways to see this other than that, and all of them are more correct [both laugh] than that way. Bobby says, "No, it isn't. We are." [laughing] And Dean is surprised by this? He is shocked, upset-

C: Yeah, he's like, "What??"

G: And Bobby goes, "I'm sorry. I can't bite my tongue any longer."

C: Like, maybe you should have unbitten it earlier. Like, when Dean called you. [both laugh]

G: [laughing] This is what I'm saying. Like, literally, Bobby just called by the wrong guy in the drama.

C: Yeah, and he's like, "You want me to put a bucket down there? Yeah, okay, sure."

G: Happens to the best of us. [both] And also the worst of us.

Bobby goes, "We're killing him, keeping him locked down there. This cold turkey thing isn't working. If he doesn't get what he needs, soon, Sam's not gonna last much longer." And like, he's talking about the demon blood. But I don't know. I don't know. It's not like- as you said, it's not like- 'Cause if we're going with the addiction, and if it really is- if the point really is to get him off the demon blood, right? [C: Mm.] It's not just like, demon blood or cold turkey. And by cold turkey, it means [laughs] "We're leaving him in a room to die," you know? [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Like, go down there and check on him! [laughs] I don't know. Literally go down there! Like, you can enter the room, be like, "Hey, how are you doing?" [laughing] Like, have we just completely lost it? And Dean goes, "No, I'm not giving him demon blood. I won't do it."

C: [deep voice] "I won't do it!" Fuck off.

G: [laughing] And Bobby goes, "And if he dies?" And Dean goes, "Well, at least he dies human."

C: What is this?

G: First of all, he's still human. He's not- again, we've talked about how the fuck someone turns into a demon [C laughs] by drinking demon blood and if I turn into a fucking [C: Cow.] pig by drinking pig blood. But I mean, Sam already had demon blood before. So Dean thinks he wasn't human even back then, when he does kind of say, so. [C: Mm.] Yeah, [laughs] I guess so!

C: He's not going to "die human" because he didn't drink demon blood for two days and then dies of dehydration on the floor.

G: Yeah. So he's going to die some kind of demon, anyway. So might as well live!

C: Yeah, if that is your mindset on how the blood works. Like, yeah.

People have made the point you made that like, "Oh, Dean just doesn't want Sam to go to Hell." Like, okay, well, in the show where everyone stares at the camera and says the themes of the show, like, I would believe that if Dean stared at the camera and said some shit about like, "And I was in Hell, and it was terrible, and I don't want Sam there. Like, I went to Hell to avoid him going to Hell." blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Like, okay, if that is the case, say it. But he doesn't say it. There's just the one soul line, which, like, could mean anything, honestly. So like, yeah. It just literally just is, like, "I would rather my brother be dead than be doing drugs.

G: It doesn't even have to be him explicitly looking at the camera and saying that. [C laughs] Although this is Supernatural, it probably will be if they went that way. But like, just one line here like, "Then at least he dies human." And like, I don't know, something like, "And he won't go to Hell." It literally is just one line. That's just one line. Just one line. Just one line! [C: Yeah.] And the fact that they didn't bother to put that in means it doesn't mean that! [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Like, this is wishful- like, me bringing that up was not in the context of, "And this is what really Dean was trying to do!" It was wishful thinking. [C laughs] It was like, "What if that was what Supernatural was about, and the entire course of Season 4 was changed because of it." [C laughing] Like, you know what I mean?

C: Yeah. And it's- even if that was the case, like, he could go down and tell Sam, like, "Hey, I'm pretty sure that you would go to Hell if you keep drinking this." And if Sam's like, "That's okay. My priority is stopping Lilith." Then like, you just- you let it happen!

G: Yeah, I mean, he let that fucking guy go to Hell. That painter guy. Right?

C: [laughing] Yeah, he absolutely did. He let many people go to Hell.

G: He let Bela go to Hell!

C: He let Bela go to Hell.

G: Just because, I don't know. He hated her? I mean, he seems to also hate Sam, pretty much. [laughs] [C: Yeah!] Like, I don't know.

C: Yeah. I don't know. I think this a moment when we're supposed to be like, "Oh, I think Dean's going too far," which is why, like, we cut to Dean and the hallucination being mean. But then, when we cut back to Dean, it's like, "No, but like, he's really nice, actually." And it's like, [laughs] I don't think that the extra sentences you provided him make him any less horrible after we cut back to him. But, you know.

C: So we're back in the panic room, and the Dean in Sam's hallucination is saying like, "I know why you really drink that blood, Sam." And the whole time Dean is talking, Sam is telling him, "Stop talking! Shut up! Leave me alone! I don't wanna hear it."

G: And he's kind of like, circling Sam. [C: Yes.] Sam's in a bed in the middle of the room. Why is it- It's crazy that the bed is there. But anyway-

C: I- I mean, I was better than not having anywhere?

G: But with Anna, the bed was in the corner, right?

C: Oh, well, they put it in the middle of the devil's trap on the floor.

G: Oh, you're right. Yeah. [C: Yeah.] Why?

C: What, did they think it would maybe keep Sam from leaving the circle?

G: You could put it in the corner of the devil's trap. [laughs] It's still in the devil's trap, I feel.

C: I think it- okay, it's not to prevent Sam leaving because he's standing close-ish to the window of the door when he talks to Dean, right? But like, when Cas gets him out, he breaks the devil's trap. Like, so was it holding Sam there in some way?

G: Honestly, I think the reason why it's in the middle of this thing is so they can do the whole fan right above him thing, which is, you know, they really utilize this episode.

C: Dean says, "It's cause it makes you feel strong, invincible. [laughing] A big, bad wolf in a world of little pigs." And Sam's denying it, and then Dean presses on and says like, "It's more than that. It's because your whole life, you felt different. Am I right?" Men will hallucinate their brother calling them the f-slur. [laughs] And Dean says, "Oh, I hit a little close at home, huh? And you weren't different because you were some lonely kid, or because of your weirdo family. It's because you're a monster." He continues, he says, like, "You were always a monster, and you only feel right when you're sucking down more poison and more evil." Aww. It's sad. It's sad! If this is like- this has been part of Sam's journey for-like, in Season 2, his attitude towards monsters was a lot more like, "Let's look at the situation more holistically. [G: Yeah.] Like, just 'cause you're a monster doesn't mean you have to be evil." And he is that way in 4.04 as well. And that is him trying to like-

G: But like, he kills that guy.

C: Jack? In 4.04?

G: Yeah.

C: Yeah, and he was about to eat Dean or whatever, so that was him trying to reason it through himself. Like, "Okay, maybe I'm not human, but that doesn't make me a monster." And then, like, I feel like later, in Season 4, he leans very hard into the "I'm a hunter. Like, monsters are gross. [laughs] Like, if you're not human, shoot it." as he does with the ghouls in 4.19. And that's like, him trying to be like, "I'm a hunter. I'm human. I'm just using this like, demon stuff as a tool or whatever." So like, yeah, through seasons over seasons, he's been trying to figure out different ways to grapple [G: Yeah.] with the fact that he always felt this way. And, agh. It's sad. Like, I think we had more hints of this than- like, Sam praying every single day came out of nowhere in "Houses of the Holy," and it was very effective, coming out of nowhere. This, I feel like we sort of knew about, but I feel like- I think I knew more about it from fandom than like, from the show. Like, is this the first time in canon that Sam expresses that he's felt different ever since he was a child?

G: I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

C: When else would he have-

G: I mean, he was always like, weird kid with the knife or whatever. [C: Yeah.] Oh, no! That's Jo. [laughs] But he's just like Jo for real, yeah.

C: Yeah, I mean, in "After School Special," he has like, "I don't want to be a freak," but like, he just means it like, "I don't want to be part of this hunter family." Like, that's the "because of your weirdo family" part that Dean's talking about.

G: Mm. There's something else, is what you're saying.

C: Yeah, I feel like this is the first time that they say in the show, like, "Sam always knew that there was something internal that was like, wrong with him." Sad to think about.

G: I always knew it, too, Sam. [both laugh] You're not special.

C: So we go back up to Dean, and I- I wish he was dead. [laughs] They're doing this camera angle on him o like- I don't know. To make him look taller or more determined, or something. And he's going like, [dramatic] "I would die for him in a second. But I won't let him do this to himself. I can't. I guess I found my line. I won't let my brother turn into a monster." And there's a slow zoom on his face to show how he's like, such a hero and such a good person for saying this.

G: He's literally not. Like, what is wrong with him?

C: And I hope he dies, and he will. Thanks, Jenny. Like, what is this? [laughs] Like, this isn't noble. Like, what?

G: I don't think it's a "he's a hero," though. I don't think that's kind of the framing.

C: Okay, what do you see it as?

G: But also, I may just be projecting to the everything

C: I mean, you might be right. What do you see it as?

G: I don't think it's a hero. It's just dramatic. He's saying something dramatic.

C: Bobby afterwards drops his whole, "I think we should stop doing this" shtick, so like, we're supposed to think that this convinced Bobby, at least, so we're supposed to think that this- And I think that the point-

G: I don't think there's any convincing happening here. [C: Okay.] 'Cause it's like, this is Dean's brother. Dean is calling the shots. And Dean said, "No, we're not gonna do that." He doesn't need to convince Bobby.

C: He didn't have to like, go after him with a shotgun, though.

G: That's true. Bobby's just annoying as fuck. [laughs] Sorry! Maybe he was.

C: But okay, I think that the other reason that I feel like it is supposed to be like, "Dean's so great" is just like, we're supposed to see this in contrast with the hallucination Dean, and we're supposed to be like, "Real life Dean hasn't given up on Sam yet, and he's so nice for that, [G: No!] whereas hallucination Dean is being so mean by calling him a monster right now, whereas, current Dean thinks that he's turning into one, but he'll stop it."

G: But, like, Dean, at the end of this episode does say that like, "You're always like that."

C: Because Sam finally says, like, "I don't want to stop. Like, for realsies." And then I think that's when Dean's like, "You are a monster for real."

G: Ohh, okay, okay.

C: 'Cause he does tell Sam, "Okay, like, let's go hunt Lilith. Just me and you. Like, that sounds fine." And then Sam's like, "No, I want Ruby there, and I'm not gonna stop drinking demon blood." And Dean's like, "Oh, okay. So there's just fundamentally something wrong with you as a person. And you're not human anymore. Okay, great." At least, that's how I see the progression.

G: So like, here, the argument you're making is he still doesn't think that Sam was a monster since birth.

C: A monster yet. Yeah. Just that demon blood-drinking is doing it.

G: And if he continues drinking demon blood, he will turn into a monster. And then later-

C: At least, according to Cas.

G: I mean, yeah. You're right. [laughs] To be fair, an angel did say he's gonna turn into a monster if he keeps on drinking demon blood. But only if he drinks enough to kill Lilith. Which is Sam's goal, so, I mean, he's probably gonna do that if he continues. That's pretty funny, then, if like, at the end of that, Dean was like, "Oh, when he starts drinking demon blood again, he's not gonna turn into a monster. He was a monster, [both] always." [laughs] Dean is- Jesus!

C: Yeah. There's a dramatic zoom. It can mean anything. "I guess I found my line." Like, you didn't shoot when you thought he was about to kill Jo in "Born Under a Bad Sign." I mean, as I said, it's not about like, [both] the actions. Yeah, he's not trying to prevent harm. He doesn't have issue with Sam causing harm. He has issue with Sam drinking demon blood, which is [annoying voice] icky! It's bad! [G: It's yucky!] It's yucky! [laughs] And then that action that doesn't harm is what turns him into a monster to Dean.

Because we cut right back to Bobby's panic room, and there's like- the audio's overlapping a little bit, I think, when hallucination Dean, says, "Monster, Sam. You're a monster." So yeah, I think it is like a- like I said, hallucination Dean's given up on him but [sarcastically] real Dean's a good guy! Sam's struggling, looks distraught. He goes like, "Dean. No." Dean says, "And I tried so hard to pretend that we were brothers. That you weren't one of the filthy things that we hunt. But we're not even the same species. You're nothing to me." Sam goes like, "Don't say that to me. Don't you say that to me!" And he just- he sounds so emotionally wrecked about it, and it makes me sad! Like, he actually does still care about their relationship. Wah! 'Cause I guess this season has been like- like, Sam has been telling himself, like, "Dean's weak and incompetent and stupid, and that's why I have to step up." And like, his brain, conjures up Mary saying that him also. But like, there's still like, a part of him that like, yeah. Like, Dean's his brother. He cares about his opinion. He trusts him. He wants him with him. And it's- yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Sam.

G: I mean, he raised him. I mean, maybe not raised him, but he was there the entire time.

C: They grew up together.

G: Yeah. I mean, he did look up to Dean. Like, that's something that he did do. So.

C: God, do you ever think about how like, Sam has literally no one to text. [G laughs] Like, Dean will do some fuckshit and like, who's he gonna talk to about that? Like, Bobby? Like, no. [laughs] Like, Ruby? Like, maybe. She's not gonna reply! I mean, Dean also has no one to text, but like-

G: He's annoying as fuck.

C: Yeah. he's annoying as fuck, and I also feel like he has Cas, or he's starting to "have" Cas in a way that Sam does not "have" Ruby.

G: I mean, he did scream himself to force for two hours.

C: For two and a half hours.

G: What a commitment! Two and a half hours. Dude, just give up. [both laugh]

C: I mean, maybe he was just jacking it. [G laughs] Like, he was jacking it for two and a half hours, and then at the end, he was like, "Oh, and also, Cas, you can come down here."

G: He was doing karaoke for two and a half hours [both laugh] and at the end, he was like, he was on the mic going, "Um, Castiel? Castiel, if you're here, this next song, [both] it's for you." [C laughs] And Cas shows up!

C: Also, this is a moment when, like, Ruby has abandoned him for like, a few weeks, and it's why he's going through withdrawal at first, so [G: Yeah.] even if he did have Ruby about as much or more than Dean had Cas, he doesn't right now.

Also, Dean does have Bobby. Dean literally called his best friend Bobby and was like [whiny], "Sam's so bad! Will you lock him in a room for me?" and Bobby was like, "Yeah." Dean is like, the only person that can love Sam, sort of, in the situation- social situations that he's found himself in.

G: Literally like, Dean and Bobby is like, if Dean calls Bobby about Sam, Bobby would be like, "You're so right. Like, so true, bestie!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Sam calls Bobby about Dean, and he's like-

C: "Well, do you wanna consider it from his perspective for a bit?"

G: No, this is what Bobby says. [laughs] He's like, "Look, I can't really judge because I'm not in this situation. [C laughing] Like, I don't know the full story. You know, I'm also Dean's friend, and I don't wanna impose, you know? I just wanna be neutral." [both laughing] That's Bobby.

C: Literally. The Dean hallucination disappears, and hours pass until it's night time.

G: Sam is lying down, and I think he's awake at this point, although I'm not sure. I think he's asleep, and then the cuffs like, open, and then he wakes up. He is chained to the bed, and he gets unchained. He gets up, and the door like, opens, and he gets out. As he is moving up the stairs from the basement, we see Cas! in the background!

C: We see him through the slats in the staircase, which is a fun shot. [G: Yeah.] It's so funny that he told Dean, like, "Sam's gonna be wuined forevah if he stops Lilith! So do you prommy to serve God, be coworkers with me, and not mend?" And Dean prommied. And then he was like [laughs], "Slay. Okay, I'm gonna let him Sam out to stop Lilith, now."

G: He goes up towards the room, and he closes it with a finger. Like, he strokes his finger through the air, and it closes the door. And I remember this scene pretty much exclusively from the [C laughs] "Heretic" Sastiel AMV. [C: Yeah!] Yeah.

We go out, and there's a figure hunching over a railing. [C laughs] And I was like, "Damn, that person has Cas's coat." [both laugh] It's because I don't think I've ever seen Cas hunched like this. [C: Really?] Like, he has bad posture in that one scene, but like, not like, leaning over a railing. Does Cas ever lean on anything after this? [C laughs] I do not think he does.

C: [laughing] He has many seasons to lean on something. I'm sure he does.

G: The next time he is like, at a pier, he is just standing there, hand in pocket. [C: Aww.] And it's in Season 9. [C: Alright.]

Anna shows up. He turns around. She's there. And he has, again, wet, pathetic eyes. Full frown, everything. And Anna goes, "What did you do?" And Cas is just going, "You shouldn't have come, Anna." And it's not like a menacing thing or anything. He is expressing a genuine, like, "It's sad that you're here!" Anna is going, "Why would you let Sam Winchester out?" Cas says, "Those were my orders."

C: Is Julie McNiven like, not a good actress, or are they just giving her bad lines? Like, Anna's just not been particularly scintillating in like, this episode or 4.20.

G: 4.16 is the last one where she's been a good character, I feel. [C: Mm-hm.] The thing is like, I think she was appealing in 4.16. There were times before, [overlapping] in 4.09 and 4.10 that she was good. She just did not have chemistry with Dean, which was made essential by the plot that she has. But she doesn't. It's fine. [laughing] This episode, I did to myself, [C laughs] "Are the two female characters in this episode played by terrible actors, [both] or am I just misogynistic?"

C: [laughing] I also had- 'Cause the thing is, there are times when I think that Cas is badly acted, but [laughing] I don't bring it up in the podcast because to do so would be to acknowledge the existence of someone playing Cas when he is in fact, his own guy. So I think it's a maybe a- Because I'm less invested in Ruby and Anna's characters, which, like, could come partly from place of like, misogyny, I am more willing to notice their bad acting and then say it when I see it.

G: Yeah. When did you think Cas was badly acted? I mean, when Misha Collins was playing Jimmy Novak [C laughing], we insulted him to hell and back. But that's because that's Jimmy.

C: Yeah, exactly. Jimmy's not sacred. [G laughs]

G: We are so Cas-pilled. I don't think people realize how much we're so Cas-pilled.

C: [laughing] I think people know.

G: [laughing] I do think people- Like, before we started this podcast, it was all we talked about, pretty much. Like, we just talked about Cas. [C laughs] Maybe not all, but he showed up in every single conversation.

C: When we got to Cas, we were lot less Cas-pilled than we have been in the past. [G: Yeah.] And I don't know if that's good or bad for the podcasting experience. I think it might be bad.

G: Honestly, I think it's good. [C: Okay.] Because if we were as Cas-pilled-

C: That's true. We would like, [laughs] skip over every Sam scene in this episode.

G: We won't talk about everyting, and I think we won't even talk well about Cas. It would just be like, "Oh my god, he's here!" which we kind of are doing this episode.

C: [laughs] Yeah, I don't know if we're doing that much better.

G: [laughing] It's so funny that, like, you know, like, I mean, this is a heavy episode, so obviously, like, the joking around with like, the Sam and Dean stuff- especially the Sam stuff- is kind of like, a bit, you know, [laughs] impossible with the- Or like, the way we do it with the Cas scenes, like, "Well, that's inappropriate, and I just don't think it will be funny if we do it," just because, well, it's a different topic. [laughs] But then Cas shows up, and you're like, "Are they gonna fuck raw?" [both laugh] Like, everything is a sex joke. And, well, that is where the mind goes, unfort.

C: Yeah, upon seeing his pretty, pretty, wet, sad eyes. [G: Yeah.] And the line of his mouth when he looks sort of sad, is truly enchanting.

I think in 4.15, like, when we were just coming back, I saw Cas, and I was like, "I don't know if he's that well-acted." [G: Ohh.] But just 'cause I was seeing like, prestige actors David Tennant and Michael Sheen for like, three months, [laughs] and then I came back to D-list actors on Supernatural. [G: That's true.] Yeah, I don't know. And also, like, I mean, we said that he's very bad during the fight scenes in 4.16, but yeah.

G: This is true. But [laughs], that's a Cas thing. [C laughs] Even that, it's fine. It's fine!

C: Yeah, you had the perspective that he's getting used to his body and such. [G laughs] I just had the perspective of "This is kind of cringe to watch, innit?" [G laughs]

G: I mean, I don't know. I'm trying to think of any scenes-

C: There's never been a moment when you were like, "Cas isn't acted well"?

G: I mean, [laughs] the confession was pretty bad. [C screams] It was horrendous. And that's not even Cas for half of it. That's Misha Collins [both laughing] coming out of the screen to say, "I'm in love with Jensen Ackles."

C: [laughing] We can't- this is a joke, but we can't. We can't do it. [G laughs] Have we Cockles joked in the podcast before? As Dean said, "That's my line. I won't let this podcast turn into a monster."

G: [laughing] Well, it was a joke. It was a joke!

C: I know it was a joke, but do we- We've probably mentioned Cockles before. I guess it's fine.

G: Well, [laughing] here is our "That's officially a joke" thing [C laughs] just to make it clear and ease Crystal's worries.

G: Anna's like, "Orders? You saw him, Cas. He's drinking demon blood. It's so much worse than we thought."

C: Ugh, whatever. [both laugh] Like, whatever. That's how I feel about this.

G: "Dean was trying to stop him." And Cas goes, "You really shouldn't have come." And he is fully facing Anna now. There was a portion of this conversation where he was turned around, but now he's facing Anna, and two angels show up and hold Anna by her side. And we go to Cas's face. There's like, a bright light from where Anna and the two angels are. And then they're gone, and it's just Cas.

C: Yeah, it's quite sad. When they take her away, he, like, does turn his head back to the side. Like, he's statue-moding her. And, ugh. This must suck for Anna so much. Like, she thought that she helped Cas like, rebel against Heaven and do free will, so she was like, "Nice one, Anna." But then he got lobotomized and came back and is trying to start the Apocalypse. [G: Yeah.] And like, he called her, and like, she came because she like, cares about him, and like, [G: Trusts him, yeah.] he's the only other angel who's a little bit like her. And probably, she's like, "Even if he got lobotomized, there's probably part of you know that free will in him, and like, he was like, doubting in 4.16, and like, I helped him turn towards the free will path, and maybe I can do it again, and we can be like, friends again, or whatever." And like, when Cas says, "You shouldn't have come," like, it's pretty similar to in 4.16 when she shows up, and he says, "You shouldn't be here. We still have orders to kill you." To which Anna replies, "Somehow, I don't think you'll try." Because, like, she trusted him, and like, his goodness and their relationship. [G: Yeah.] And now, like, he says the same thing, basically, again, and she probably still thinks that like, "Well, this is still Cas, and I trust him. And like, we're siblings. I was his commander. We've known each other for 2000 years. It's gonna be okay." And then now she's back up in like, Heaven angel jail, which is the place she said last episode was just like, the worst place ever to be. [G: Yeah.] And she's gonna break out and then like, die. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] I think that's like, the rest of her storyline.

G: I mean, what is the reason why they bring her out there? Like, no, no, no, no, like, I mean, from the Supernatural writer perspective. 'Cause they're trying to put her in the back burner? 'Cause they're trying to figure out what to do with her?

C: Yeah, they're just trying to get her out of the way 'cause they're like, "We don't have use for this character." [G: Right now, yeah.] I mean, they haven't really been utilizing her that well since 4.16, anyway, either. Like, she was just like, their angel Bobby.

G: I wonder when they like, gave up [C: Yeah.] on the Anna situation. 'Cause she was- we keep on saying that she was supposed to be-

C: Yeah, the Cas. And then after everyone liked Cas so much they were like, "Well, we don't really know how to close out Anna's story now. So up into the the bank vault of Heaven you go."

G: Yeah, it's gonna be Season 5's problem.

C: It is sad that they, yeah, as you said, gave up on her character in this last part of Season 4.

G: Yeah. I mean, I feel kind of stupid saying this, because shows are made up of people, pretty much, and their relationships with each other, so I don't wanna be like, "Oh, it's bad if a character is defined by like, her relationships." [C: Yeah.] 'Cause like, well, duh! But, I don't know. I just do not like that they define her with like, her relationship with Cas, which they do develop and I like, and then with Dean, who like, there's nothing there. [C laughs] I understand that's because she's a new character, and it's like, if she's a new character and it doesn't work out, you wouldn't like, you know, try to keep her around. You would just be like, "Okay, let's get a new character in here." And I understand that. It's just, again, if it's just like, you know, one woman, if it happens to one female character, it's like, "Okay." Doesn't have to be like, egregious. But when it's a pattern of "Oh, we have a female character, and she's interesting, but maybe not in the way we thought she should be. So let's put her in the back burner and then bring her back a couple of episodes later to die." [C: Mm.] And it's like, they do it here with Anna. They will do it later with Jo and Ellen. Have we ever met-

C: [laughing] They're playing longcon with Sarah Blake. [G: They literally longcon-] 6 seasons between her first appearance and then her death, whatever. Oh, Missouri. They fuck up Missouri real.

G: Yeah. No, but like, shockingly like, at least Meg is a person, I feel like.

C: Oh, yeah, I feel like they do an okay job with Meg.

G: Ruby is a person. And, I don't know. Supernatural is kind of good at writing demon women, I suppose, is what we can conclude. Well, that's two, so I don't know.

C: Not all of them.

G: Who are the other demon women?

C: Like, Lilith.

G: Lilith, that's true. I just wish Supernatural [C laughs] has a more robust cast of characters. [C: Yeah.] And, you know, that includes women in the show. I don't know. Maybe consider not having to pair them up with Sam or Dean. [both laugh] Like, let's see how that goes. I mean, Jo- no, they did pair up Jo.

C: They paired Jo with Dean. Meg, they don't really- [G: With Sam, not really, yeah.] They pair her up with Sam for a bit, and then they don't.

G: Yeah. And it does work. Yeah, I mean, she's still interesting.

C: Yeah. They're gonna pair her up with Cas later, baby! But yeah.

G: That's true. I don't know. The Anna stuff is just- again, it's not like, Supernatural the show's everything's fault, because, like, the audience, did also react [laughs] pretty negatively to her. And it just becomes this cycle of the writers are apprehensive to write female characters, and when they do, it's not their best work.

C: And it means they curate an audience that hates female characters. [G: Yeah.] Because they give in to the people who hate women each time.

G: Yeah. And then, like, the audience complains, the show's like, "Whoops. Okay." And then the show puts out the complaint, and it's like, it becomes this arduous cycle of "Well, who's to blame?" And it's like, you know, "It's the fans!" "No, it's the show!" I don't know. It's probably me for still watching it, honestly. [both laugh]

C: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I say this often, but it's like, the people who would make the best critical Supernatural podcast are people who quit watching Supernatural after two episodes [laughs], like, 'cause it's too bad.

G: Yeah. [both] Anyway. Cas sees all this and goes, "Eh?" [laughs] No, he doesn't. He's real sad. Has real sad eyes. [C: Incredibly sad.] He's looking [singing] down to the river- I forgot the tune to "The River" by Bruce Springsteen, so, I'm so sorry.

C: Well, I don't know it. Sorry.

C: So we're in the salvage yard, and Sam's trying to steal a car when Bobby shows up holding a shotgun. [exasperated] What is the gun for, Bobby?

G: [laughing] Why did you say it like that? [goofy] "What is the gun for, Bobby?"

C: I just- I'm curious. Like, does he think Sam's gonna try to hurt him for locking him in the panic room? I mean, that's valid.

G: [laughing] That's so funny. That's so funny. I thought that you were quoting Sam. [C laughing] I was like, "Does Sam say that? And why does he say it? Also, why is Crystal saying it like that?"

C: [laughing] No one said that.

G: [laughing] Well, Sam should have said, in the voice that you just did, [goofy] "What is the gun for, Bobby?" [both laugh]

C: Yeah, Bobby would've let him go.

G: Bobby's like, "Who the fuck are you? Where's Sam Winchester?"

C: I don't know if it's for self defense because he thinks Sam's gonna hurt him, or it's like, "I'm just gonna force Sam back to the panic room by gunpoint." I think it's more of the latter. Sam sees this, and Bobby is like, "The only place you're going is back inside with me." Sam says, "No." And Bobby goes, "Damn it, boy!" And like, he's clearly supposed to be having like, a moment, but like, no one's making you do anything, Bobby! Just leave him alone!

G: You know what? I think [laughing] Jim Beaver is also a bad actor. [C laughing] But no, because I've been saying, like, "I don't know. I just find it impossible to connect with Bobby. Like, I don't know. It's just, he gives information, then he's gone." We have other characters in this show who gives information and is gone. [C: Caas.] Cas was like that. Rufus was like that. Ellen was was like that for a while. I mean, the thing about Bobby is he's kind of like, likeable, but not that much. Like, he's not charming. I mean, he doesn't have to- because, like, I don't mean charming as in like, you know, like, happy, whatever. I don't mean that by charming. Like, Rufus is like, an asshole, a little bit, to Dean. Like, he's not pleasant. But he's charming. Bobby is not charming. [C: Yeah.] Like, Sam is a killjoy, but he's charming. [both laugh] Bobby is a killjoy and is not charming. [laughs] I'm sorry for insulting Bobby to hell and back, but yeah.

C: Maybe Jim Beaver is a bad actor.

And Sam doesn't back away, and he goes, "You won't shoot me, Bobby." And Bobby says, "Don't test me."

G: [goofy] "You won't shoot me, Bobby." [C laughs] What accent is that, by the way?

C: It's not an accent, that I'm aware of.

G: It's just a voice?

C: It's just a voice. I don't know what the voice is trying to convey. Maybe like, game show host-esque.

G: I still, I love that like, Italian New Yorker, you know what I mean? "Fugget about it!" No no no, that's different.

C: [laughing] I think that's it.

G: That's it? You think that's it? Okay, great. [C: I don't know.] [laughing] What is another thing that Italian New Yorkers say?

C: Like, "Hey, I'm walking here" seems to be the other one?

G: "Hey, I'm walking here!" [laughs] This is bad. [both laughing] What are we doing? Let's stop this immediately. [laughing] I'm sorry, Italian New Yorkers!

C: [laughing] Sam's literally about to have a moment. [G laughs]

And Sam goes, "You won't do it. You can't do it." And I think- is the underlying sentiment, like, "You're too weak to"?

G: Hm. I don't think- 'Cause if it's like, "You're too weak," it would be a more taunty, you know, situation. But like, he's using his soft voice. [C: Yeah.] He's using his puppy dog eyes, whatevs. I feel like maybe, like, Sam's thinking, "Oh, he's not gonna do it. He's too weak." But like not weak in terms of like, you know, like, will, but more of soft of heart, which is a different thing. [C: Yeah.] You know, like, when Bobby was like, "Maybe he's in there because we love him too much." Like, Sam is out here, about to get into this car, 'cause Bobby loves him too much. But also. like, even if I didn't know Sam Winchester personally, if he was like, standing there like, [glum teenager] "Are you gonna shoot me?" [laughing] Why am I doing that voice? [C laughs] Well, if he's standing there, going, "Are you gonna shoot me? Are you?" I'll be like, "No!" That's not like, a love thing. That's just like, I don't know. Who wants to shoot people? [C laughs] I don't know. Not me.

C: Many people on Supernatural.

G: Many people on Supernatural, this is true.

C: Yeah. So Bobby says, "We're trying to help you, Sam." And Sam takes the gun, and then repositions it so it's like, pressed up right against his heart, and he says, "Then shoot." Oh, it's miserable. Sam is, like, suicidal this season, like, [G: Yeah.] just as a like, "I'm probably gonna die when I kill Lilith. And I'm fine with that. Excited, even." But like, yeah, this is very-

G: I mean, part of this is like- [C: Yeah, trickery.] No no no. Like, a part of it is like, "I know Bobby won't shoot." But, as you said, like, if he dies, well. "What am I gonna do? Don't-" like, you know. "Sure. Why not?" But like-

C: Specifically "Killing me would help me."

G: Yeah. And I don't know. Like, oh, Sam. And like, yeah, a part of it is tricking Bobby because he does bang him up over the head. [C: Hell yeah.] But yeah.

C: But yeah, I think he means what he says here. [G: He does, yeah.] You know, Bobby just stands there. They're both just standing there. And then Sam grabs the gun from him and knocks him over the head. And there's like, a moment after Bobby gets knocked out where Sam sort of stands there and like- before he drops the gun, sort of sadly down on the ground. Like, what was the pause about?

I mean, like, it is a choice to not take the gun with him. I guess it is just like, "Well, what's it gonna do?" But also, like, Sam- this car does not have like, weapons in it, I'm assuming. [C: Yeah.] And Sam has to use the knife in Ruby's boot or whatever in order to drink her blood. He seems to be making like, a deliberate choice at go somewhere unarmed. And like, part of it, I think, is just like, "Well, soon, I will get my powers, and then I'll just be able [G: Yeah!] to like, do stuff without weapons."

G: But what if he gets attacked by a werewolf?

C: Yeah, what if he gets attacked by something else? There's also no guarantee that Ruby's actually gonna show up this time, like, when she hasn't all the other times. Like, I mean, this could also be like, part of the passive suicidality. Like, "If something happens to me on the trip, like, I'm not gonna defend myself."

G: I mean, this is what- I do wonder about this. Did Cas like, heal him a little bit? What's happening? Because he was just having delusions, he was just having hallucinations. Yeah. So now he's not, and like, later, he is portrayed to be uneasy, but pretty much a similar vibe as like, last episode before Dean found out, you know?

C: Yeah, I think that's possible that- [G: The angels would order that?] Yeah, the angels would order Cas to like, make him able to drive for a bit, 'cause we need him to actually get the place to start the Apocalypse and all that. But also, I don't know. Maybe he's just having an easier time. Like, could just be that. But I think the healing also makes sense.

But also, I think there's the fact that he really wants to reconcile with Dean, right? Like, that's like, one of the things he tells Ruby after he drinks the demon blood and feels like, more physically comfortable again. Like, is it like a "If Dean finds me, I don't want to have a gun, like, when he's here, 'cause like, I want to make sure that we just talk"? He's probably not thinking that far ahead.

G: You know what- the reason why I asked the like, "Did Cas heal him?" is like, Sam is obviously not in like, a state of mind that involves careful thought, like, when he was in the panic room. Right now, I don't know, but like, I think you can make the argument that he's just not thinking about it right now. [C: Yeah.] I mean, there are other more pressing things, like, "I need to get out of here," which I think is the most pressing thing. [C: Yeah.] "So if I get out of here without weapons, it's fine as long as I'm out" is like a-

C: He's already holding the gun. Like, it was a choice to drop the gun. [G: Oh, you're right.] I guess it's also like, if Bobby wakes up and is like, "Dean, Sam ran off, and he has a gun," like, I feel like when Dean finds him, it is gonna be a different sort of attitude than like, [G: Yeah.] "Dean, he ran off, but he's unarmed." So I don't know. There could be some strategizing there.

G:You know what he took? [C: What?] He didn't take the gun. But you know what he took? He took Bobby's cap. [both laughing] No, because Bobby was on the floor, and his hat was off, and like, I mean, it probably just fell, you know, like behind him or something. But I was thinking, "Did Sam take his hat? That is so mean!" [C laughing] Like, I understand that Sam just went through the worst abuse that most people can fathom. [C: Yeah.] But he didn't have to take Bobby's hat! [C laughs] Now Bobby's head is exposed to the world! Is that fine by you, Sam? Bobby obviously doesn't want to expose it to the world. Now it's exposed. What are we gonna do about it? [C laughs]

C: For real. He wanted to like, do some roleplay sex with Ruby, and Ruby was like, "You know, I think that like, old man that like, tells you lore sometimes is kinda hot." And Sam was like, "Say no more. I got this." He hotwires the car successfully, and he's off.

G: Anyway, Dean is finally awake. Why the fuck are they not doing turns in sleeping?

C: I don't know. I mean, I assumed that Cas had put them to sleep.

G: This is true. But also, I think they just DGAF. I mean, you would only do the like, "Let's take turns resting" situation, if, like, you are actively looking out for Sam. [C: Mm.] Like, you're actually watching him. Then it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, it's my shift to watch him." But like, they're not, so like, I totally buy that they were just like, "And now it's nighttime. I want to sleep." [laughs]

Bobby and Dean, they go into the panic room. and they're talking about how, like, you know, Sam got out. and Bobby's like, "I don't know. Maybe he had help." and "Every like, devil's trap is busted." Dean is like, "Oh, like, demon? So like, Ruby?"

C: Blaming women for everything, I see.

G: Yeah. It was Cas all along. It was angel, Castiel, Dean. Now what? Now what?

Did did they even realize, or are they told ever that that's Cas? Cas did that?

C: Probably. Like, when Cas gets Dean in the green room, it would come up.

G: I don't know. Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe it would. But also, it'd be really funny, if like, you know, like, many years from now, like, ten years from now [C laughs], they're like, just hanging out. And they're reminiscing. And they're like, "God, we really got into some crazy shit back in the day." Yeah, and Cas is like, "Yeah. I remember when Sam was going through demon blood withdrawal, and he was in that panic room, and like, [laughing] angels told me to open that door."

C: [laughing] "To like, let him out. Isn't that crazy?"

G: "Isn't that so funny? Why the hell did I do that? Oh my god! Do you guys remember?" [C laughs] And everyone at the table was like, "What the fuck?" [C laughs] And Charlie is also there. She's like, "Sam was addicted to demon blood?" [C laughs] And yeah, it was a real fun time.

C: Yeah. True. 'Cause it wasn't in the books. How the fuck did Chuck write Season 4 as a book series without that?

G: [laughs] What do you mean?

C: Like, Chuck, Season 4 Supernatural got published as a book series by Chuck in universe, but he left out the demon blood. Like, what was- How'd he do that?

G: Are you for sure that you-

C: Well, he said in 4.18 that he didn't even put in the books because he thought it would make Sam unsympathetic.

G: And then it actually got published?

C: Well, doesn't he have a fan convention in later- Also, like, Cas is in the musical. [G gasps] Like, Cas doesn't show up until Season 4.

G: Castiel! [singing] "I'll just wait here, then." [C laughs] What a corny-ass song, but oh my god, it's so cute! And also so terrible. [C: Yeah.] But we've talked about it, and we will talk about it more in the future, just by virtue, and also because we're watching the episode. Well, I don't- You're right. I suppose he put it in eventually, cause it's completely essential, so.

C: I mean, it could just be like, "Sam's using his powers. And they didn't like that he was using his powers. And then he used his powers so raw and so hard that he killed Lilith."

G: God. You think Chuck Kidz Bopped the Winchester story? [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I love it.

At some point, Bobby goes like, "How Sam got out isn't as important as where he is now." [laughs] I love how I just completely changed that fucking sentence. Well, he said, "How he got gone out ain't as important as where he got gone to." Which is fun. I was like, "That's a really fun turn of phrase." It's just, I can't say it. Like, whatever it is about Bobby's accent that makes him able to say this properly, that I do not possess it. And Dean just goes, "I'll tell you one thing. I hope he's with Ruby, 'cause killing her is the next big item on my to-do list." [C: Boo.] And Bobby is like, "I thought you were on call for like, the angels." And Dean goes, "I am on call, in my car, on my way to murder the bitch." Which, you know. Ugh.

C: Like, ugh. I'm trying to understand Dean's perspective, but like, just due to the fact that the show has still not sold me on "drinking demon blood is bad," me and Dean have nothing in common right now.

G: Sam is in a hotel room. The transcript describes it as a nice hotel room.

C: It is a nice hotel room.

G: You think so?

C: I thought that the octagons in the paneling were really cute, at least. [laughs]

G: I mean, but this is not like, a hotel room, isn't it?

C: Like, I think it's a hotel room and not a motel room. I think that-

G: How do you know? 'Cause the wall's like, ugly.

C: Is it?

G: It is.

C: Oh, I wasn't noticing that much. Let me check.

G: I don't know. To be fair to me- I mean, actually, this is not fair. To anyone. [C laughs] [C: Okay.] I don't think I've ever been to like, a cheap hotel. So like, I don't know what they look like.

C: Yeah, I've only been to cheap hotels in China, so I don't know what the US ones look like.

There's like, a couch in there, in addition to the bed. Like, there's a decent amount of room to spread out. I think that's more than a motel would give you.

So Sam's like, sitting on the couch, and he's shaking. Ruby knocks on the door, and she comes in, she's like, holding her like- She's like, holding onto the strap of her bag in a way that's very cute. And like, her whole affectation here is very like, "Oh, like, I'm flirty, and I'm nice, and I'm here to help you," or whatever. I have missed her smile. It's good to see her again. Like, I feel like I almost forgotten what her voice sounds like. But she says, "Honeymoon suite? Really? I'm flattered." And they establish that she could not have gotten Sam out of that room, but it doesn't matter who got him out 'cause he's just out. Which is kind of Bobby's sentiment, I suppose. And Sam asks like, "Where the hell have you been?" Like, apparently, the last three weeks, she's just been trying to find Lilith, so she has not had time to check her voicemail. She says, "I'm sorry you're hurting. Really. I had no idea that Dean would do that to you." And okay, like, is the consensus that, like, she deliberately ignored him for three weeks to like, get him into like, a bad emotional state so he would be more willing to listen to her when she came back?

G: Probably. [C: Probably.] It is like, a very common like, tactic to, you know, like, give attention, or like, something that person wants or needs, and then take it away to like, reaffirm, like, power dynamics. [C: Yeah.] I mean, I buy that she was looking Lilith. But those are not exclusive things.

C: Yeah, I also buy- But, okay, weren't she and Lilith working together?

G: No, they're not. She's working for Lucifer.

C: Oh, right, 'cause Lilith doesn't want to die. [G: Yeah.] So like, now that she's found out that Sam's gonna kill her and she has to die, like, she probably is actively trying to evade Ruby and Sam. But yeah, you're right. Ruby could pop in and give Sam some blood.

G: Yeah, or reply, which she doesn't do. No bars. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] [C laughs] [laughing] That line is still the funniest thing in Supernatural. Cas is like, "Oh, there's no signal." And Dean's just like, "No bars?" [both laugh]

C: Yeah, it's Heaven, bro. What about "I had no idea that Dean would do that to you." [both] Does she think that's true?

G: I mean, I don't think she really thinks that.

C: Yeah, I mean, she's been on the receiving end of Dean trying to kill her in a way that Sam has not before. [G: Yeah.] I think she knows that Dean would turn on Sam very instantaneously.

G: There's no reason for her to think nicely of Dean, no?

C: Just that, like, medical abuse is pretty bad.

G: I mean, it's different from Dean to her to Dean to Sam. [C: Yeah.] No, what do you mean? What do you mean?

C: Oh, no, I'm saying that like, she does have no reason to think well of Dean, but I do think that like, she could think that he'll probably just respond by like, punching Sam some. Like, not necessarily like, lock him up, 'cause that doesn't really help with her plan. Like, she couldn't get him out. [G: Yeah.] Like, if he actually stayed in that panic room forever, like, Lucifer would not have been able to rise. She didn't know Cas was gonna let Sam out. Like, she would've been screwed.

G: Does she know that the angels want- Or is that like, hidden knowledge even from her?

C: Huh. I assumed that she wouldn't know because- [G: She wants Lucifer to rise.] Yeah, and she thinks that Lucifer is gonna reward her and Sam. I don't think she thought that he was going to possess Sam. Like, I don't think she knows about the final battle.

Sam says, "You and me both." Which is sad. [G: Yeah.] Like, again, he did have faith in their relationship. I do think that Ruby's like, anger at Dean, or like, feeling sad that Sam's hurt like, does come from like, a real feeling, but it's just that like, she cares about Sam and doesn't want him to feel hurt, but like, she also needs him to follow her plan exactly as she wants it to happen, and if that means hurting Sam or lying to him or whatever, like, it's a necessary evil.

Sam explains that he took this really nice hotel room to throw Dean off the scent, 'cause Dean knows his habits, his aliases, everything, and knows exactly which motel Sam would pick. Ruby says that "It won't be easy to shake him. I mean, he knows you better than anyone." But like, I think she is saying it a way to like, get Sam to say, "No, he doesn't." So that's something that he'll have said to drive a wedge between them so more. And, you know, Sam does say, "Not as well as he thinks." And Ruby's like, "You know, it's sad that things have gotten this bad between you two."

G: While giggling and twirling her hair. [laughs]

C: She's so funny. Yeah, like, "Oh my god. Like, you guys are like, doing so bad? And it's like, 'cause of meee? Oh my god, whoopsies!"

She like, tries to start comforting him by like, stroking his hair, but like, midway through hair stroke, he like, slams her down on the bed. And then it's like, yeah, no, it's like, a sex fakeout. Not a sex fakeout. They're just making it sexual in that like, he's moving down, and it's like, a going down on her motion, but then it's to get a knife from her ankle sheath. So he cuts her arm and drinks blood out of her. [G: Yeah.] And she has her "I'm a sicko" smile on as that happens

G: That one post that's like, "And the thing about Season 4 is that no matter what you want to say about Sam and Ruby, [laughs] those two actually do wanna fuck each other." [C laughs] [C: Yeah. I mean.] Because, yeah. I mean, the actors did meet here and get married, so.

G: We're back to the salvage yard. Dean and Bobby are, I don't know, figuring out where Sam went. And Sam stole the car, and then that car is left somewhere, and in that place there are two cars that have been stolen. A 1999 Honda Civic, blue, nice and anonymous, like Sam likes. Or-

C: I'm looking this up, and that's a really nice color of blue. It's fun! It's got a fun mouth.

G: The other car that has been stolen is an '05 Escalade with custom rims. Dean and Bobby are like, "Oh, Sam would choose the Honda Civic, like, on a regular day, but [laughing] because he's trying to throw it off, he chose the other one!" And like, yeah, I don't know.

C: I think it's kind of corny. It's kind of dumb. [G: It's corny as fuck.] This isn't like, a puzzle, for like, two-year-olds. Like, I don't care about the reasoning you're going through here.

G: No, it's like a reverse psychology. And it's like, what if Sam actually did reverse reverse psychology? And Dean's like, "No no no. I'm gonna reverse reverse reverse psychology."

C: "He was only a psychology major. [both] He wasn't a reverse psychology major." [G laughs]

G: A part of me also is like, I mean, I couldn't figure out what was- Because, like, Sam never explicitly says, like, "I'm trying to throw Dean off," right?

C: He does. He tells Ruby. [G: Doesn't he just say-] He says that he chose the nice motel because Dean knows what motel he'd normally choose.

G: Exactly. So part of me is like, that's not saying that "So that Dean won't find me." A part of me is like, "Wait. Was he trying to get Dean to find him?"

C: No.

G: You really think no? Like, what if Sam is doing the reverse reverse psychology? You know what I mean? To get Dean to find him. He's like, "Dean is gonna think I'm trying to hide from him, and he's gonna find me if I'm trying to hide from him."

C: Okay, no, no. Sam says, "Whatever it takes to shake him."

G: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.

C: If you hadn't taken that nap you would have remembered. And by nap, I mean full nights' of sleep. [G laughs]

G: This is true. I slept for seven hours in between this part of the episode and the last part. [C: Slay.] But Dean is like, "I know that kid. So yeah, he took the custom rims Escalade." [C: Boo.] Boo, honestly.

C: No, you don't.

G: No, you don't. And he never did. And he never will.

C: Exactly. And calling him a kid is doing the same thing as calling him Sammy has been doing this season.

G: That we mentioned, yeah. Dean goes out to find him. Meanwhile, Sam Ruby are having post-demon blood drinking-oitus, and [C laughs] Ruby says, "Your appetite has gotten much bigger." And Sam takes a bit of an offense at this, but Ruby's like, "No no no, that's a good thing. It means you're getting ready to kill Lilith. You're getting stronger." This is when she relays the final seals breaking thing that we have talked about and that the angels are just, I don't know, doing fuck-all about it. And she said she found something big, which is that the 66th seal, it can't be broken just by any demon. It needs to be broken by Lucifer's first.

C: I mean, that's true. Only Lilith can break the last seal, it's true. [laughs] She isn't lying about that.

G: "Lilith is the final seal!" I love it. And Sam was like, "What the fuck is Lucifer's first?" And the whole story is that God, liked humans more than angels? Lucifer was like, "Hmph!" and then decided to, you know, twist and tempt a human soul into the very first demon as a "screw you" to God. And it's what he has done. Lilith is that first demon. [C: Fun.] It is pretty fun.

C: Do you think he did it when she was like, a kid?

G: I mean, could be. [C: Could be.] She wants to eat babies! [laughs] Good for her, honestly. Like [C laughs] this is like, such fun demon behavior.

So Sam is like, "Oh my god! So if I kill her before the final seal, Lucifer's never gonna rise!" What happens if Lilith gets killed before the 65th seal is broken?

C: I don't know.

G: Is it essential that she's the 66th seal?

C: Probably.

G: It's essential? So like, if he gets killed one seal before [C: Like, early?], it doesn't pass over to the being the final seal's broken?

C: If the Apocalypse couldn't like, start until the first seal. Like, like, they didn't start counting seals until after Dean broke in Hell, right? [G: Yeah, that's true.] So I think they stop counting seals after Lilith dies, and if you didn't hit 66, then, oh, well, no Apocalypse for you.

G: So like, it's like, the Righteous Man breaks. That's the first seal, right? [C: Yeah.] And then the final seal is the first soul that broke must die. [C: Pretty fun.] I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, pretty fun.

C: Wait, okay. They don't know about the Empty yet. Like, what the fuck do they think happens when they kill a demon? Like, because it's different from exorcism. So they aren't going back to Hell. Like, where are they going? Heaven? [laughs] Like, clearly not. What do they think is gonna happen?

G: I don't know. They disappear into the wood. Also, like, isn't it so sad that there's no rest in Supernatural? [C: Yeah.] I mean, I've talked about this before, but I don't like the Heaven and Hell thing, situation, like, in my personal life, just because like, I just want to be dead. I just want to be asleep, bro. [C: Yeah.] Like, why do I have to continue existing? And yeah. At least, like, in the Empty, they are asleep. So that is eternal sleep. They're not being tortured or anything. Cas being awake there is a Cas thing. He's a specialest little princess. That's why he's awake.

C: I thought they had like, nightmares about their worst moments or whatever.

G: No, Cas was given that 'cause he refused to sleep.

C: That doesn't seem like it would help you sleep.

G: No, that's kind of like, the Empty's just mad at him at this point. [C: Okay.] Yeah, it was like, "You're gonna be awake? Fine. I'm going to be a bitch about it." [laughing] Every time I say "bitch" in a conversation that isn't quoting Supernatural directly, I'm like, [giggly] "I'm like- I'm so edgy." [both laughing] [C: Yeah.] Maybe I am! [C: Maybe you are.] But Ruby has been able to track down one of Lilith's closest member in her entourage. Her personal chef.

C: Sam is like, "Oh my god, what does Lilith eat?" She literally told you "Baby blood all the time" in 4.18. Like, were you not listening?

G: Yeah, I mean, in that one, he's like, "She's exaggerating to scare me." But no, she literally does eat that, Sam.

C: We cut to a hospital, and there's two nurses talking, and one of them has a twisted and evil expression on her face the whole time, or whatever.

G: I did think to myself that the nurse that turns out to be a demon, "Oh, that's like, terrible acting, I think." And then she turns out to be a demon, and it's like, [laughing] "Oh my god, this demon is so bad at acting! I think that's so fun. That's so fun." [C laughs] When the other nurse was like, "Did you hear about the horrible thing?" and she's just like, "No!" [C: "Noo!"] I was like, "Girl, you're going to reverse slay in a community theater." Like, honestly. [C laughs]

C: I think that's called a flop.

But okay, so two nurses start talking, and the human one is saying that there was this neonatal nurse at a nearby hospital who just stole two babies but now says that she doesn't remember what happened at all. And the demon nurse is like, "Oh my god, that's crazy! Like, no one would hurt a baby. They're just so delicious!" [laughs] [G: Love her, honestly.] And then her eyes go black for like, literally no reason. 'Cause usually, when this happens, like, in the show- [G: They're trying to show someone, yeah.] - it's because they're trying to communicate that they're a demon to someone else. But like, this is just like, "In case you, as a watcher, didn't understand yet that this nurse with her creepy smile calling babies 'delicious' that we cut to right after we said that Lilith's is at a hospital [both laugh], like, just in case you didn't know, she's a demon."

G: You know what? What's happening here? [C: What?] She saw the production of Fleabag on a theater, and she's like, "I'm gonna be just like that for real." [C laughs] So throughout the day, she's doing like, fourth wall breaks to be like, "And I'm just like Fleabag," and this is one of those moments. [C: That's real. I believe that.]

C: Back at the suite, Sam and Ruby are discussing their plan to get to this demon. Apparently, they're gonna go find her at the graveyard shift tomorrow night, and that in order to kill Lilith, Sam's gonna have to drink more demon blood than Ruby can give him right now. Also, at this point, Sam has like, washed his face and shit, and he's slicked back his hair [G: Yeah!] to make him look incredibly ugly.

G: Yeah! This is his Lucifer in 5.03 - I think that's not true. 5.04 is "The End" - look, yeah.

C: Right. Oh, is that what is? Yeah, no. It's his evil hair look. [G: Yeah.] Earlier, when we were supposed to feel somewhat bad for him, like, his hair was like- [G: They put his hair down, yeah.] Yeah, yeah. But now it's like, prominent sideburns, everything slicked back. He looks terrible. Like, sorry, Sam. [laughs] [G: Yeah. Sorry, Sam.] Yeah. But at this, Sam sighs. And Ruby's like, "Sam, come on. It's okay." And Sam says, "I know I need more. I get it. I know it's okay," which is like, a new progression for him, and I'm happy for him that he's at this place, but he will be torn away from that place very soon. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] And he goes, "I just- I wish he'd trusted me, you know. And I just hope, when all this is over, I hope we can fix things." Oh, Sam. I don't know about that one. It's not happening for a good few seasons, and probably not even after that.

G: You know, we've talked about this. But the only way that Sam and Dean can have a better relationship is to just like, meet each other like, I don't know once every [C: Once a month.] two months, or something. Yeah, like, you need to meet maximum six times a year for this relationship to work, you know? [C laughs] And it just makes me sad. Get out of there, Sam!

C: Yeah, they should not live together.

G: The thing is like, maybe if they were apart, they would have a better relationship, except because of who Dean is, fundamentally, as a person. even the idea of being that apart is like, [faux-teary] "And you've thrown away the entire relationship!" Like, he's never gonna welcome that with any- yeah.

C: Yeah, he is the "You not rocking wit me? [overlapping] I'm gonna kill myself!" guy.

G: And Sam should do it anyway, just to see if Dean accepts it or kills himself. [C laughs]

C: Is that too much for the episode? [G: Sorry.] I mean, I don't disagree, [G laughs] but I don't- a lot of people sad at Dean's death cause they viewed him as being passively suicidal, and they were all projecting their depression on like, Dean Winchester?

G: [laughing] Their 2020 depression on Dean Winchester. [C: Yeah.] I think that's a different conversation, yeah?

C: Fair. Okay. Well, Sam should not rock with Dean.

G: I mean, like, Sam being like, "We should probably like, lead separate lives" is a different thing from Cas dying, which is what is the more immediate prompt of Dean's immense hopelessness at that point, you know?

C: Yeah, but like, at this point, I don't think Sam is aware that they have to only see each other six times a year. [laughs] [G: Yeah. For him, it's like-] "Let's go back to normal or whatever after the Apocalypse." [G: Yeah.] Oh, that makes me sad, because, like, there's been a lot of like, "I'll probably just die when I stop Lilith," but now, like, Ruby's given him a plan, and like, he has some hope and stuff, and now he's like, "Maybe when this is over and Dean and I are both still alive, like, we can build a better relationship."

G: Dean is, you know, driving off to wherever the fuck, and Bobby and him are talking on the phone, and Bobby is relaying information about like, which town is close to what and where the car broke down, etc etc. Dean has figured out where Sam is, pretty much, and then Bobby goes, "Hey, Dean. Listen. Us finding Sam, it's gotta be about getting him back, not pushing him away." Too late for that, honestly. [C: Yeah.] Bobby goes, "I know you're mad, Dean. I understand. You got a right to be. But I'm just saying, be good to him, anyway. You gotta get through to him." This is like, last episode, like, towards the end of that episode, I talked about like, Dean's perspective in the situation and what that means. And this is what Bobby is saying here is like, pretty much what I was trying to say there. That like, yeah, Dean is mad. Unlike, Bobby, I don't think he has "the right to be." [C: Yeah.] But he is mad. So let's just, you know, let's facilitate the rest of the events from that point of view. Like, what I was trying to say then was like, he's mad. He should be good to Sam, anyway, even if Sam did actually do something wrong. There is not a version of this story where Sam is bad enough that they could do this to him, and it would be completely fine. [C: Right.] So, yeah, it's like, yeah, you're mad. But like, it's disproportionate, and also [laughs], there's no situation where it would be proportionate. [C: Yes.] So yeah. The problem here is that, I don't know. Like, Bobby's definition of "good," I think, is very different from like, my definition.

C: Yeah. I mean, again, he thought that locking Sam up was like, 'cause they loved him too much.

G: Dean arrives at where Sam is, and we get this shot where Dean is hiding behind the wall and Sam's getting out of this room and Dean like, peeks over, blah blah blah. And then Dean goes into the room that Sam's in, and Ruby is there, packing up. [C: Yeah.] And Dean like, immediately goes to attack her.

C: Yup. With the knife. [G: With the knife.] He doesn't even have any holy water on him or anything. Like, he loses this fight. It's kind of embarrassing for him. And he thinks he can kill Lilith? [laughs] Like, get real, Dean.

G: Sam comes in, disarms Dean and everything. His tone in this scene is- well, we've talked about it, but, well, it truly is something. And it is the tone, pretty much, that Sam will carry for the rest of the show, even. It's just defeated. It's like, "No, Dean. Just let her go. Just take it easy." Dean is mad.

C: And I think he's also trying to like, make his eyes wide in order to be like, "I'm being welcoming. And I'm like, open to discussion," blah blah blah blah blah. I think it gets defeated later, but I think currently, it is hopeful.

G: No, no, no. I suppose I don't mean defeated in that he has given up on whatever. It's more of like, "I understand that the situation here is: Dean is angry." And it's like, kind of just like, trying to manage the situation now instead of like, I don't know, being mad that this is the situation in the first place.

C: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

G: Dean, all of his lines, it was like, shouty. But he goes like, [petty] "Must have been some party [both laugh], considering how hard you tried to keep me from crashing it." But yeah. [C: Yup, exactly like that.] Yeah, he goes, "Solid try, but here I am." And Sam goes, "Yeah, I'm glad you're here," [laughs] which is truly a fucking thing to say. I thought it was funny! And he's doing the "Let's just talk about it." And Dean, every single time Sam suggests anything, "let's talk about it," like, "we can go together," whatever, it's always like, "Yeah, as long as Ruby's dead. As long as Ruby's gone." Like, blah blah blah! Yeah, Dean says she's poisoned Sam. "Look what she did to you. I mean, she up and vanishes weeks at a time, leaves you cracking out for another hit." And like, Dean actually does have a point there. It pisses me off a little bit more, even, that it's like, now the situation is like, "Look! She won't even give you your drugs!" [both laugh] which is- and it's like, you, also- [C: Yeah, you wouldn't give him his drugs!] What's happening here? But like, what Dean is trying to say is like, "She's manipulating you. And you're like, fine with that." [C: Mm.] You know what I'm so mad about? When Sam goes, "You're wrong, Dean." Dean goes, "That's a lie. You're lying to yourself." [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Like, that's my line, Dean! Fuck you and your stupidass hair!

Dean is mad that this is a manipulation tactic. It's just that, well, rich coming from him, kind of the situation. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. And it's also like, the way that he's- like, he's been telling Sam for like, a while that Ruby's manipulating him and this is something that he's been thinking all season, but- I feel like I've probably already said this, but it's the way that, like, "She's manipulating you" is a reason for him to be more angry at Sam 'cause it's like, "You're too stupid to see that she's manipulating you" when it's actually like, well, it means that there were actions taken so that Sam would trust her more so that, again, it should be something that makes you more sympathetic, not less.

G: Dean goes, "I just want you to be okay. You would do the same for me. You know you would."

C: "Do the same"- like, what is he even talking about? Like, killing Ruby? Like, "I want you to be okay, and once I kill Ruby, you'll just magically be okay again. And you, too, would kill my evil demon girlfriend if I had an evil demon girlfriend." Is that what's he saying?

G: If Dean is working on the point of view that Sam's being manipulated, the solution is not to go, "Come with me, or the only option you have in life is to stay with the person manipulating you." [C: Yeah.] You cannot give those kinds of ultimatums, because, well, one, it's not gonna work. And two, if it works, great. If it doesn't, it will worsen the situation in all possible ways. Because now this person knows that you're not gonna be there, and the only person in their life is going to be the person who is manipulating them. So what the fuck now?

C: Yeah. Dean is just, okay, blaming Sam for everything. And he's like, "If Sam doesn't choose me, then like, I don't care about them anymore."

G: Dean understands that there is manipulation happening here, but I don't think he understands what the fuck manipulation is. [C: Yeah.] Do you think it's just-

C: I think he thinks it's just lying. So he's like, "Sam's been manipulating me all Season 4." [laughs]

G: Yeah, he thinks it's just lying, and he thinks that if you say the truth, or like, if you expose that someone is being manipulated, that's the end all be all of it. But like, Sam obviously doesn't think he is. [C: Yeah.] So like, there must be more to this conversation. And yet, Dean, the entire time, is like, "Oh, either get out or be with her forever." And it's like, "Okay, so you're just leaving your brother to be manipulated for the rest- Okay, great." [C laughs] [C: Slaycation!] Sam's like, "We figured out where to get Lilith. Stay with us. We'll do this together." And Dean is like, "That sounds great, as long as together is you and me and not that demon. Bitch." [laughs] Well, he doesn't say, "Not that demon, bitch." He says, "Not that demon bitch." And yeah, "You kiss her goodbye, we can go right now." Yeah. Sam says, "I need her to help me kill Lilith. I know you can't wrap your head around it, but maybe one day, you'll understand." Aww. And then he goes, "I'm the only one who can do this thing." Dean's like, "Well, no, you're not!" Sam says, "What? The angels say it's you? Is that what's happening?" And Dean is like, "What? You don't think I can?" [C laughs] And this is the start of the part of the episode that's pretty much like, "But Mommy said!" [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Yeah, and then Sam said, "No. Mommy said you can't. You're not strong enough." [C laughs]

Sam is saying, like, "I'm being practical. I'm doing what needs to be done." Dean is like, "No, you're not going to do anything."

C: Why- I think Dean should mention first what Cas said about the amount of demon blood Sam needs to drink to defeat Lilith-

G: - is going to change him forevah.

C: And that he already promised- like, he already gave himself up to the service of God and the angels or whatever. Like, doesn't that seem like relevant points to this disagreement.

G: The thing is, Sam is being practical [C: Yeah.], if a little egotistic. And Dean is being so egotistic and not practical at all. Like, Dean's offense here is that Sam thinks he's not strong enough. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, Well, you can say here that "Well, it doesn't matter if I'm strong enough or not, 'cause I already offered myself up for this. It's not too late for you." That's like, an argument. 'Cause it is too late for Dean. There's no going back for him. But like, Sam can still sit this one out just in case it kills him, you know? [C: Yeah.] And yeah. I don't know. Like, I think this is very vital information you're missing, Dean. You can think of Dean as generously as you can. You can think that, like, "He's doing this because he wants Sam to be safe." To not, you know. But the narrative only gives you hints of it. It only gives you "what if"s of it. So yeah. Sam goes, "Stop bossing me around, Dean." And, you know, the lines sound intense, but this entire time, he is speaking in a way that is like, he is literally just trying to talk to Dean.

C: Yeah, he sounds pleading, I would say.

G: Yeah, he says, "My whole life, you take the wheel, you call the shots. I trust you because you're my brother. Now I'm asking you, for once, trust me." They always do this, where it's like, "You did this for me, so now I'm doing this for you." "I'm doing this for you because if it was me, you would do it for me." [C: Uh-huh.] It's like, both of them are so annoying. [laughs] I'm sorry. Well, what if they are? And Dean replies to this with, "No, I don't think you know what you're doing." And Sam goes, "No, I do!" And Dean goes, "Then that's worse! Because then it's not something you're doing. It's what you are."

C: Boooooo! That doesn't make any sense! [G: Yeah.] I guess it's like, "I don't think any human being would willingly make that choice, so therefore, it means you're not human." [laughs]

G: Is this like a "You're doing a gay act, and it's like, you don't know what you're doing." "Yes, I do." "Then it's not just because you're doing something gay. You are gay." [C: Yeah.] [C laughs] What is a real-life parallel to this?

C: [laughing] I think what you just said makes enough sense to me.

G: Yeah. I don't know. What the fuck does that even mean?

C: No, okay, maybe it's like, "You don't know what you're doing." And Sam's like, "Yes, I do." And Dean, like- [G: "Then you are the person who would do this."] - ignores that entirely, and he's like- [sighs] Yeah, no, I think it is the "That you're a person that would do this means you're not human anymore." [G: Yeah.] Or "The thing that you're doing changes what you are."

G: Yeah, I think maybe this is Dean being like, "You're being manipulated." And Sam is like, "No, I'm not." And then Dean is like, "And then that's worse! 'Cause you're just doing it out of your own volition." But it's still something that he's doing, it's not about who he is. I don't know.

C: Yeah. It- okay, I mean, this could be like, a new statement, though. Like, Sam's like, trying to explain, and Dean's like, "Okay- [G: "I know what you are"?] - what I said earlier about 'you don't know what you're doing,' like, that's like, bullshit. Like, the real reason that I like, have an issue with you right now is that I have an issue with what you are." Like, it could be like, a new idea introduced.

G: It's a goalposts moving, you know, of like, "So this action that you're doing, you don't think is wrong. Well, who you are as a person fundamentally is wrong," you know? And it's like, "Okay, well, whatevs." [C laughs] But yeah. Dean cuts himself off, [laughs] in fairness to him. [C laughs] And Sam was like, "No. Say it."

C: He still says the whole "what you are." [G: Yeah.] He just cuts himself off before he calls Sam a monster. A very low bar.

G: Dean says, "It means you're a monstah!" [both laughing]

C: [laughing] What? Okay, yeah. Why not?

G: [laughing] He turned into a completely different person when he said it. Sam is just looking at this, so sad, so sad, so sad. And like, you know, we did have that- We did just have that fucking scene where he, you know, thinks about this, and Dean says this. "You're a monster, and you mean nothing to me." And it's what Dean is saying now, so. Sorry, Sam! [C: Yeah.] Yeah, he's crying. He's tearing up. He's crying. No no no. Dean is crying.

C: Sam's also teary. Both of them are crying.

G: Sam just looks at this and goes, "Okay, okay, yep." And then he punches Dean.

C: Yayyyy! Kill him, Sammy, bite him! The other way around.

G: Bite him, Sammy, kill him! Yeah. Literally, bite him, Sammy, kill him. [C: Kill him.] And then, yeah, Dean is on the floor. He gets up, punches back, and then they're in a full brawl. They're truly fighting. And I forget, but is this the first brawl? Like, is this the first, like, Sam and Dean are fighting this way-

C: - and it's not 'cause they're possessed or one-sided.

G: And it's not anything else, yeah yeah yeah. This is like- [C: I'm like, pretty sure.] I think so, too.

C: Like, there's been like, violence between them before, but it's always been one-sided, and by one-sided, I mean it's always been Dean hitting Sam. [G: Yeah.] But yeah, this is a real brawl. And I feel like the sudden punch from Sam in the face that starts this is like, quite similar, I think, to like, the punch that Dean throws out of nowhere at Sam in "Metamorphosis."

G: No, I don't think so.

C: Not like- just in terms of like, how it looks. [G: Oh, not in terms of vibes, yeah yeah yeah.] Not in terms of like, the context. Yeah. In terms of how it looks, but like, it's a different situation, I think, given there's a lot more provocation before it. And it's the fact that, like, I feel like this is- I think this is the first time Sam has punched first. And Dean responds the way that Sam has never responded when Dean punches first. [G: Yeah.] And then that is what turns it into a brawl once there's like, an answering punch. Like, that's when it is different from all the previous [G: Yeah], like, encounters in this way.

G: I mean, the difference here is that- because the Dean punching Sam, I didn't think it was a call to fight [C: Yeah.], it was like a, "I'm punching you," and that's a different thing than a "Let's punch each other." [C: Yeah.] This one is very much a "Let's punch each other" fist, you know? [C: Yeah.] And they do! They punch each other! And oh my god, Sam is truly- [C: Truly buff this season.] He is so big! He is so big.

C: Yeah. He's Ginormo.

G: He's [laughs] this fucking ginormo. And it was- I don't know. I was a bit surprised because, like, he throws Dean around. I mean, there is no doubt in this scene- not a single moment was Dean having the upper hand. But yeah. Stuff is breaking. There's like, mirrors breaking. There's like, the walls thing. They're all breaking.

C: Yeah. And they're all breaking Sam has [both] thrown Dean through the things. [both laugh]

G: And yeah. Finally, Dean is on the ground, and, you know, he's like, got a bit of a bloody nose, whatevs. And Sam is just above him, like, walking towards him, like, heaving. [C: Yeah.] His jacket is slightly- like, it's not perfectly on him. There's like, a slight ajar situation. It's not like, off him or anything. It's just- it's a bit further out on his shoulders, and it makes him look even bigger. Sam is like, 6'4. Both Dean and Sam are so tall.

Dean is on the ground. Sam sees him, and then starts strangling him!

C: Yeah, babey!! Like, I don't think we need to put a "it's bad to murder your brother" disclaimers here [both laugh], because sometimes, it's good to murder your brother, and this is one of your situations.

G: Yeah, this is if Abel woke up and was like, "God, my head hurts. What the fuck is that?" [C: Yeah.] and then strangles Cain. [both laughing] Like, that's what's happening here to me, personally. So this is fine, I think. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

G: Yeah, anyway. Yeah. But Sam stops. And- I mean, like, what are the reasons he stops? Well, that's Dean. [C: I mean, he still-] No, let's change the question. Why is the reason he starts?

C: He's angy? [laughs]

G: He's angy. I think the point of it a little bit is like, "See, I can stop myself. I'm not a monster. I'm not gonna kill you." [C: Ohh, interesting.] Because it's like, if he just goes here now and then goes away, I don't think it sends the message as clearly that, like, "I stopped myself from killing you." Because, like, this brawl doesn't really have the intention of killing in mind yet, you know? But like, going down there and strangling Dean and being like, "See, I have the ability to kill you. But I didn't! [both laugh] I'm not a monster." [laughing] That's crazy. Crazy logic to take. But like, it's what happened to me, yeah. I love it.

C: I mean, that's pretty slay. I did not really see it. Like, I think I just saw it as like, [G: He's angy.] emotion getting the best of Sam, and in that moment, he was like, "I wanna fucking kill that guy." And then, when Dean starts struggling more, he was like, "Oh, perhaps I should not fucking kill that guy."

G: He doesn't. He stands up. The cameras- oh, we haven't even talked about the cameras in this scene. I really like the point when Sam and Dean were talking to each other, like, still just talking, and Sam's face is like, just normal framing, and Dean's face is like, we look closer to his face, and like, he looks a little bit more menacing. And I did find that fascinating, because it is very clearly made aware by the camera that Sam's the normal guy, and Dean is like, a menacing creature in this situation. [C laughs] [C: Uh-huh.] In this one, Dean is on the floor, and the camera shot is like, looking up to him, which is, well, yeah. [C: Yeah.] And he goes, "You don't know me. You never did. And you never will." [C: Fuck yeahhh!] And never does. [laughs] He never does.

C: I mean, this isn't like, a win in Sam's mind, given that earlier, he really did want to reconcile and make things good between them. But like, pretty badass line!

G: I mean, I know I purport to be the person who's seeing things from Dean's perspective in this podcast, but, like-

C: You don't say that that often. I don't think you purport.

G: Really? Well, I try to be, because god knows you won't do it. [C laughs] But like, in this scene, I literally do not give a shit about how Dean receives this, you know?

C: Oh, absolutely not. [laughs]

G: Is he gonna receive this as like, "No, Sam is wrong." Well, he's not wrong. I mean, "Sam is right." Well, yeah. You should have realized it sooner. I don't know, buddy. [C laughs] So I don't know. I don't think there's any like, interesting avenues to explore that aspect of this scene. But like, what Sam is thinking is like, on one hand, it's like, relief, I suppose, that, like, "All this time, all my life I've been trying to like, tell this person who I am. I've been trying to express like, who I am. I've been trying to share my reasonings and explain myself, all that crap. But you know what? He just never will. Like, he doesn't know me, he never did, he never will." [C: Yeah.] And a part of it is acceptance. And of course a big part of it must be so horrible to think that a person who purports to be- I love to say that now, don't I? [C laughs] - But a person who purports to be the person who knows you the best in the world, and the only person who can know you and love you in this way. And, you know, we know that Sam thinks highly of family as like, the ultimate form of love. And Dean is pretty much his only family at this point. So this is the only person who can care for him in this way, and he is never going to understand. And it's not even because Dean is just incapable of it. It's just, there is a lack of trying, you know? And that must suck even more. [C: Yeah.] That like, "You never understood me, and you never will. It's not a matter of something is fundamentally wrong with you the way you claim there's something fundamentally wrong with me. It's just because no matter what happens, you will just refuse to see me as a person worthy of being understood in this way."

C: Yeah. Horrible. Oh, there's a webweave of Sam and Dean using lines from Charly Bliss's "Threat," which are- have you seen this one? It's the one that goes, "You say you love me, and it sounds like a threat / I'd rather be dead than have it be true / That no one could ever love me more / Love me more than you."

G: Yeah. I think the first time I saw that, I messaged you and was like, "I'm so miserable!" [both laugh] And I probably was.

C: I think about it often. It's a good webweave. Though I think that I read the "and you never will"- I think that your interpretation of it is part of it. I think also, part of it is like, "I'm removing myself from the room right now. I'm removing myself from our relationship right now."

G: Yeah, "And you will never know me anymore. I will not give you the option."

C: Yeah, because we're not seeing each other ever again, like, you don't have the privilege of knowing me after this point.

G: No, but the thing is, there was a time in this conversation where Sam goes, "Maybe you don't understand this now, but maybe one day, you will." And Dean can still do that, even if Sam is not there, even if they don't speak to each other ever again. Dean, with his own self and his own mind and his own thoughts, can come to conclusions about this story in a way that is like, "Yes, I was right, and I did fuck up that one massively." And I think what Sam is saying here is like, "Whether I leave or I stay, like, you trying to understand me and you understanding me and you knowing me is not reliant on me anymore. It's on you, and whatever you do, it's not gonna happen." [C: Yeah.] Is anybody else so miserable? [laughs]

C: I mean, Sam is.

G: That's the thing about like, any relationship, really, is that the moment it's like, "I'm the only one who can understand you," it's bad. Like, there's a difference between "I understand you best," or "I know you best," 'cause I feel like that is something that can happen. But best is not equivalent to "I know you wholly." [C: And exclusively.] And also exclusively. Dean claims to be the knower and understander of Sam wholly and exclusively. And it's like, yeah. The moment I feel like a relationship starts doing that, especially family, especially family- 'cause I'm sure many people also have heard like, "Oh, family is the only one who can understand you." or "Family is the only one who will know you like this or accept you like, this, or whatever."

C: Yeah, or that you can trust, or that you can turn to when you need help or blah blah blah blah.

G: And, well, I think your family should be your number one area where you turn to when things go bad or something. Should be not, not like, is. But it shouldn't be the only. Once that word starts creeping up in there, yeah. And for Sam and Dean there's no even creeping up, even. It's just there, always. [C: Mm.] Horrible. [C: Yeah.] Sam starts walking away, and Dean goes- he's still on the floor. He goes, [faux-teary] "You walk out that door, don't you ever come back!" [C laughs] And then-

C: Like, I know it's meant to be- It is something. But like, have you seen the video of this fight that like, someone put on Tumblr, and they were like, "Hey, just like, watch this out of context, and if you're not a Supernatural fan, like, can you tell me, is this like, emotional to you, or like, funny?" and everyone put like, funny? [G laughing] And I think it's because of the way Dean delivers it. Like, it's laughable. It's funny to me.

G: [laughing] I know I put voices on in this podcast, but how I did it is exactly how he does it. [laughing] Like, I swear to God. [C: Yeah.] [C laughing] That was a perfect rendition of that that delivery. [C: It was.] It was pretty funny. He should've done it in-

C: I know it's 'cause you were almost strangled to death- What?

G: [laughing] He should've done it in the accent I was doing earlier. [C: Which accent?] "You're a monstah! [C laughs] You walk out that door, don't you evah come back!" He should have said that.

C: Yeah, no, Sam would have just stopped in shock and turned around.

G: He would have been like, "Did I cut off oxygen supply to your brain? [both laughing] What's going on?"

C: Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, this is a reference to the Stanford fight, and Dean is casting himself as [both] John in that situation to make it clear that this is like, a fully end of relationship thing. Sam walks out that fucking door. Go, babygirl!

G: Sometimes, I think to myself, "I wish there was just something- something that actually affected Dean long-term," you know? Like, sometimes I think like, here, it's like, Dean is like, "You walk out that door, don't you ever come back." And he thinks he's in the right. He does. [C: Yes.] And then the narrative proves that he is in the right. [C: Yeah.] And then they still separate in Season 5, and even that one, it's like, "Well, I was doing the right thing then, and now, I'm doing the right thing to call you back."

C: Yeah, "It's really good of me to like, be the bigger person and call you back despite how badly you wronged me."

G: Like, sometimes, you just have to be punished by life, you know, to realize that like, "Okay, that was like, a bad thing I did, [C laughs] and I probably shouldn't do it again." And the thing about Dean is like, he never- like, bad things happen to him, but there's always somebody else to blame, or there's always something else to blame, or he is made out to be "Actually, he's the person who's in the right. It's just the circumstances or whatever." [C: Yeah.] The blame is always offloaded from Dean. And I'm not saying that we should blame Dean for everything, although, I don't know. [C: Well...] [both laugh] Maybe we should. I'm not claiming it, but like, maybe. [C laughs] But I'm just saying that having something in your life go wrong, fully because it's your fault, could be in some situations, if it is something you're able to recover from, really helpful in like, your future decision-making.

C: Yeah. Or Dean just realizes his actions were wrong, [G: Have consequences.] regardless of like- even though, like, he's right about how blah blah blah, like, Sam eventually, like, raises Lucifer, he still should not have done any of that shit. And also, he's still trying to kill Lilith. Like, if he successfully killed Lilith and followed the angels' plans, the same thing would have happened. But like, that just doesn't seem to get through his head in future seasons, I'm pretty sure.

G: I don't think he thinks of things in actions. He thinks of them in outcomes. The outcomes always rewards him, and because that that thought process of outcome vs action, he also doesn't look at the merit of the actual action. I think maybe even disconnects the consequences from the action itself. The thing about Dean is like, he thinks something is deeply wrong with him - I mean, we've talked about this before [C laughs] - something is deeply wrong with him, but he does nothing to fix it. And a part of it is that he thinks he could do no wrong also? [C: Mm.] Like, "if he does something wrong, he was right to do it" kind of situation. And yeah, horrible. Like, sometimes you're a terrible person, and that's fine. And Dean, like, always thinks of it as like, he is a terrible person, and it's not fine, but like, "It's who I am." And it's like, Jesus Christ. Well, whatevs. Whatevs. Not whatevs, because we will continue watching this show for 5ever, and it will carry it with us for that long. But I don't know.

C: We sure will. [G: Yeah.] And what really really annoys me is that the last shot of the episode is [G: Is Dean!] on Dean, like, on the floor, and like, the point is like, "Oh, isn't it so sad that Sam beat him to a pulp and now he's like, on the floor, injured like that?" Like, no, Sam should have killed him. [laughs] Whatever.

G: Dean doesn't really ever get a redemption arc, I feel like. For anything. And the reason why is the narrative doesn't deem his actions worthy enough of being- of needing a redemption, I believe. And also, like, you need to acknowledge fault to redeem yourself, I feel like. And again. He never does it. And this is part of it, also. Even here, in the scene, it's like- I mean, they do- they do frame this scene as like, "Dean went too far, [C: Right.] but he's right to take the things he's thinking, but it's too far." [C laughs]

C: He wasn't being polite enough about it.

G: Like, Bobby's like, "You have to be good to him." And it doesn't mean consider his point of view, [C: Yeah.] it doesn't mean try to actually connect with him as a person, it doesn't mean treat him like a human being. It just means "be niceys to him so he'll agree with you." [C: Yeah.] Like, dude. Well, anyway. [C: Well, anyway.] What did you think about this episode?

C: I mean, there are ways in which it was very good, and there are ways in which it was very bad.

G: Truly horrible, yeah. Yeah. I like this episode. I was afraid to talk about it in the podcast because I was really emotional watching it. I don't know. I feel like in the podcast, I already talk so much about myself. I was afraid I was gonna bring up things about myself, too. But like, I think talking about it did help me in like, trying to see it in a less emotional POV and more of a like, "Okay, so like, what are the actions trying to tell us?" I do think that between the two of us, I tend to be the one who's more generous with like, what Supernatural is trying to say. [C: Yeah.] And this one, when you're just watching it, there is a tendency to be like, more generous with it. Because, like, it is an emotional episode, and they do try to make you feel for Sam. [C: Yeah.] It's just that once you start breaking down what the fuck they're actually trying to do, it's like, "Oh, yeah, no, it's still a terrible show. It's still terrible. Don't worry about it." [C laughs] [C: Yeah, suppose so.]

C: Okay, so before we move on to Best Line/Worst Line, we realized during the recording that, like, we keep saying Misha Collin's a horrible person recently, but like, we haven't said why. And I think it's just because we assumed everyone knew [G: Yeah.], but like, basically, what we're referring to is, a few months ago he wrote this substack article about Israel's genocide of Palestinians, but it was like, very like, "both sides," "My heart breaks for both sides." It utilized a lot of like, Israeli propaganda about the founding of Israel. [G: Yeah.] And then when people- Yeah?

G: Like, what's particularly egregious about it is, he paints it not as a emotional call to action. It's like, "Oh, I researched it, you guys. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] And I read about it, and don't worry. Like, I know what I'm talking about, because I know the history now because I looked into it." [C laughs] And it's like, okay, well, fuck you, dude.

C: [laughing] Why have you cast yourself as an educator on this? And also, why are all of your takes ransom? [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] But yeah, after he was criticized for it on Twitter, he just doubled down. He kept saying that he didn't want to call it a genocide because he feels like it devalues [G groans] like, "actual genocides like the Holocaust, or attempted genocides like indigenous people in North America," which wow! [laughs] What an interesting way to word that, Misha Collins. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] But anyway, so like, that is the situation. And secondly, while we're on this topic, we're going to add links in the description of this episode to donate to the PCRF, the Palestine's Children Relief Fund, the World Food Program, and then Grey, do you wanna introduce- Oh, wait sorry, I also have to do the e-Sims, sorry. Now that we're on this topic, we're putting links in the description of this episode to the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, the World Food Program, buying e-Sims for Gaza. [G: Yeah. So.]

C: I guess it's Best Line/Worst Line? I mean, there are a lot of good lines- I think I was very taken by Mary's "For justice," even if they don't do too much with this episode. [G: Yeah.] I think it's the line that made me feel the most.

G: I've never really understood why I felt so emotional watching that scene, but when you explained it as like, Sam thinks of himself as a Winchester and that he is like this because he is a Winchester, but here's Mary coming here and being like, "That Winchester curse you're talking about, like, that comes from me. And also, it doesn't have to be a curse." [C: Right.] Yeah, and when you were like, "There are people- You think of family as the main indicator of morality, and the family you're with right now thinks you're evil, and the dad who raised you thinks you're evil. [C: Yes.] But I don't think so, and I'm your family, and we come from a long line of hunters who are all family, who all don't think so." [C: Yeah.] And like, yeah, that means something to me, and I think it means something to Sam, who, like, does value that perspective.

For my best line, I quite like the line, I don't know. "Suck dirt and die, Rufus." [C laughing] I don't know. [C: That is good.] I- what is the best line in this episode? I suppose the parts that I like, I didn't really think of in terms of lines. I really like, the whole cutting out from Dean hallucination to review that it's a hallucination. That's not a line, but that is the part of the episode that really got to me the most. [C: Aw.] So yeah, I'll choose that. It's my honorary best line. [C: Okay. Worst line.] Worst line for me is, "You're so far away from strong. Try weak!" [C laughing]

C: Oh my god, yeah. No, that's pretty funny. That's pretty clunky writing.

I think that Anna showing up and being like, "Oh my god, you let Sam Winchester out? He was drinking demon blood. It's so much worse than we thought. Dean was trying to stop him." was very wooden and very dumb, [laughs] and just not good. I mean, the only purpose of it is like, maybe to make it clear that the angels didn't know the details. Like, that's the only new information we get. The rest is just like, a shoddy summary that like, adds nothing to Anna's character or Cas's character or the plot. Spread those sheets?

G: Oh my god, you're right. We will spread those sheets!

C: Misogyny, Ruby gets called a bitch quite a bit.

G: Yeah, I think we can count 1 in there.

C: Yeah, I think that's a 1.

G: Racism. No. Homophobia. [C: Not that I recall.] Not that I recall. There is so much- [C laughs] this episode is so egregious, and it gets a 1?

C: Yeah, we just don't have an ableism column, because- [G: We decided against it.] - we decided against it because we were like, [laughs] "I don't think that we're the people who can give a number of points to ableism," but this would be a 5.

G: Our misogyny, racism, homophobia tally is such a like, big proof of like, how if you do your criteria strategically, you can do anything. [C laughs] Uh-huh. Like, because our criteria is misogyny, racism, homophobia. There were some truly egregious episodes this season-

C: No, Sera Gamble traveled forward in time, saw our spreadsheet, and was like, "I've got the funniest idea, you guys."

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. And it's- remember when we were like, doing like, a Sam and Dean misogyny count?

C: Uh-huh, so when there was other misogyny, it's like, [laughs] "Well, Sam and Dean didn't enact it. Guess there's nothing we can do!"

G: Yeah. And like, we very quickly realized that like, this show is so egregiously bad in ways [C laughs] that we we did not anticipate. [C: Right.] Well, yeah. [C: Well.] Our next one is- [C: The IMDb.] This episode is gonna be high.

C: This would be a polarizing episode, but I feel like it's high.

G: Yeah. I think maybe, you know, last episode, I guessed a 9.1. I think I'm going to- and it wasn't a 9.1. It was like, an 8.7. [C: Yeah, it is.] I'm gonna guess a 9.0 for this one.

C: Okay, do I want to go above or below that? I'm gonna go above and then regret it. [G: Okay.] 9.1.

G: Okay, here we go. It is- holy shit! It's 8.5!

C: Okay, did people take issue with the things we took issue with? Or is there something else going on? Are they like, "I don't think Dean would be that mean"? Like, okay, well, let's see. There's only 9 reviews. [G: People like it in the reviews.] This person says, “Every episode of Supernatural has been good so far.” Not sure about that one.

G: This one, it says, "I have a problem with S4, it's this weird obsession with torture this season suddenly developed and it is most prevalent here because that Allistair halluciation was totally out of place."

C: That's true. Like, what was the point of that one?

G: Yeah. And like, Sam isn't even- he wasn't tortured by Alastair, they don't have a bond.

C: Is this supposed to represent Sam's fears of going to Hell? [G: I mean, maybe.] That would be interesting, I think, if they did anything about it.

G: I mean, also, like, they don't have a bond. Did Alastair and Sam even talk, like, other than Sam kicking his ass?

C: No. Yeah, I think Sam just killed that guy, and that was it.

"But the most heartbreaking scene was when imaginary Dean told Sam he is a monster while the real one was upstairs saying he would die for his brother in a second." [G laughs] Well, five minutes later, guess what Dean does.

G: Dean does call him a monster! Like, for real.

C: Yeah. But you know what? They do say, "Dean, you punched Sam so many times before and he just stood there and took it like a man, why didn't you do the same?" [both laugh] Real.

G: Stand there and take it like a man, Dean. [C laughs]

C: I agree with the actions prescribed, but not the way they were prescribed.

This person thinks that the that this episode has a lower rating because it's slower-burn and less action-centric. Which, I don't know. Do you think that's why?

G: That's not true.

C: I guess if you don't care about Sam that much, you would be pretty bored during the hallucinations, I suppose?

Oh my god! CubsandCulture, I wish! They said, "I think it is exceedingly likely that one of the Winchesters will kill the other in the series finale." [G: Yeah!] That could be fun. Sad that it doesn't happen.

G: Well, anyway, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 22: "Lucifer Rising." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your poddycasties.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com, with official tag #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod. That’s where our outtakes live. Also, like, if you have some spare money this week, like, probably give it to one of the links in our description of this episode instead. [G: Yeah.] Check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com, but not this week, a different week. [both laugh] Again, links in the description instead. And also, we have a Q&A, and you can send in your questions using the Tumblr or email, which Grey will tell you, before January 27, midnight Eastern time, 2024.

G: Yeah. And that email is [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye! [guitar music]

#transcript

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