#I do think there is an argument to be made that ignoring an aromantic reading

[asexualsimonsnow]

A few people in the tags on my Agatha romance plot line poll are voicing the same sorts of thoughts I had. I did not like her romance plot line because she had all these lines in the two previous books that, to me and many others, were implying her aromanticism. To have a chapter from her POV where she expresses feeling broken due to a suspected inability to feel that type of attraction only to later have this “resolved” by her finding the right person was extremely frustrating and disappointing.

Even beyond an aro reading of the character, it’s disappointing to see her coupled up at the end of the third book. So much of the first book was about subverting the expectations that come from these types of stories. One of these expectations seemed to me to be not just that the chosen one gets the perfect girl, but that all the characters are neatly coupled up by the end and have romance as a part of their story. In the first book not only is Agatha not with Simon, the chosen one, her supposed destiny, she’s not interested in coupling up and fulfilling that expectation placed on her by the world in which she lives and by the type of story she inhabits, at all. It feels like backtracking on her character growth to watch a romance play out for her in the third book.

[chubs-deuce]

Charlastor brainworms anon here again. I was reading your reply to a recent ask and i have to say I agree, and also it's really silly to me that some people act like charlastor is some kind of morally dubious ship.

I don't think anyone's here to ship this because they want it to be canon, it's honestly just for fun! There's nothing wrong with it being non-canon compliant.

As an aroace lesbian, charlie isn't even lesbian herself, just in a lesbian relationship. So many ships split up canon pairings anyway, it's not something new. And i think people tend to forget aromanticism and asexuality are broad spectrums, it's not a black and white one or the other. The aroace label can encompass a lot of different identities, and there are many ways to pair alastor and charlie while still respecting his identity. He could be romance favorable, or they could be queer platonic, or people could just generally have different headcanons for him. It's also very telling that I don't see people bringing up how he's aroace nearly as much with radioapple or other ships. Fan works don't have to be an exact mirror of whatever's canon, and that's not the serious issue that some people act like it is.

Right?

I've generally noticed in recent years that people act so much more viciously towards non-canon ships when they're het-presenting.... :')

I think a lot of it has to do with how fandoms generally tend to assign more inherent moral value towards more visibly queer pairings... Combine that with the bs that is twitter's infestation of performative activism and morality policing in modern age fandom culture and this is the result lol

What gets me is the sheer fucking hypocrisy of it all tbh?

People keep conflating Aromantic and Asexual and confusing them with one another in their anti posting about this ship and it will never not be the bane of my goddamn existence tbh, especially because they're not even consistent with what ships they apply this criticism to, as you've also pointed out.

I will personally assume that anyone who can't tell these two labels apart and acts like they're one and the same yet whines about shippers not respecting Alastor's canon sexuality is probably nobody worth listening to anyways.

Charlie btw is canonically bisexual, and the amount of blatant fucking bi erasure I keep seeing people do just to feel morally superior for calling her a lesbian like it's a clever argument against a non-canon ship is so tiring...

Ultimately the best course of action is to silently block and ignore them.

Can we go back to that era of the internet where people would explore shipping two characters just because they stood next to each other for three frames or because their color schemes match or something equally insignificant?

We had so much more fun getting creative with how we just made random dolls kiss for fun back then :(

[carnivalcarriondiscarded]

@real-oddity YOUR WISH IS MY COMMAND ok before i wordspill, keep in mind that this is all pure assumption and speculation cobbled together from looking at the map and tidbits i hope i'm remembering correctly. take all of it with a Hefty grain of salt

so.

i think that Julie's character arc might be about societal norms, the pressure of expectation, and how those conflict with the self. because i think the puppet show intended for her to be Wally's love interest - but that's not what either her or Wally want.

STAY WITH ME I HAVE EVIDENCE. first, lets look at Julie's house:

all of the blatant heart decoration, from her tree to the windows to the hedges and even the welcome mat. no other building has heart imagery, and especially none this heavy handed. it just screams Love Interest to me.

like if i was designing a house for a love interest character for a children's puppet show in the show's time period, i'd go ham on it. children's shows are rarely subtle. and more often than not in shows, especially in older ones, the "main character" (in this case, Wally) always has a love interest, and that love interest is always blatant. usually the Moment they appear onscreen, the viewer goes "oh, ok, thats the love interest."

not only that, but look at the windows. to me, they look a lot like eyes - reminiscent of Home. The way the curtains fall, the placement, even the structures under the sills looks like eye-bags. Julie's house is also the only house other than Home to only have one floor, not two. and then there's the fact that she has no flowers outside her house, but she has white daisy decorations - mimicking the white daisy flowerbeds flanking Home's door.

"but why do you think that's not what she or Wally wants" so glad you asked. lets start with Wally:

for one, there's the smiley-face balloon featured in the above image, tied to the swingset. two heart-shaped balloons colored red and blue are on either sides of it. as soon as i saw the balloon, i went Oh, that looks like Wally. but when have you ever seen a smiley-face with closed eyes? when does Wally close his eyes - he loves eye contact! to me, it seems indicative of Wally ignoring or avoiding the hearts.

that, and - now this part is definitely a stretch - the trees behind Home are set up in a strange way to me. Julie's house gives the appearance of "staring" directly at Home. but the trees behind Home are hiding it from the house's view.

(also, just imo, Wally doesn't seem very romance-oriented to me. he just gives off huge aromantic vibes. i could be completely off the mark and might be proven completely wrong <3 i probably am <3)

now here's why i think Julie is also not on board with this:

one, it's interesting to me that Julie's house has a lot of heart symbolism, but her character design doesn't. Wally has hearts on the soles of his shoes, but those have been explicitly linked to Barnaby's heart-shaped paw pads.

Julie's character design and symbolism is all about flowers instead of hearts. Which ties to her being in a best-friendship with Frank, a distinctly platonic relationship.

now, an argument could be made that the show might've wanted her to be Frank's love interest, or have had a Who Will She Choose, Frank Or Wally subplot. what backs this is her being close to Frank (the platonic nature of their relationship could've been a deviation from the "script" due to our lovely fruity Frank Frankly), and the fact that outside of Wally, Frank is the only other neighbor to have a white daisy growing in his "yard". though that could just be to depict his closeness with her - like Barnaby having paint supplies outside his house despite not being a painter like his bestie.

(if you want to read a dissection of neighborhood flowers and their symbolism, here's a post all about it)

also, it just occurred to me - the only design thing she has in common with Wally is her little tie thing. it's very reminiscent of Wally's ascot. but it's also Very vaguely similar to Frank's bowtie. it just stands out - Sally doesn't have any neck accessory (that we can see), Poppy has her shawl, and everyone else has ties. im stretching again. this is a yoga post

and again, despite her house being heart-infested, nowhere in Julie's canon images (outside of the Valentine's Day cards), her character description, or pretty much anything relate to romance. she's centered around friendship and fun.

all in all, it gives the vibe of the show wanting her to be a love interest, but Julie either ignoring it or actively going against it.

obviously something like that would influence her character arc, if not be a big part of it. then - HOLD ONTO YOUR GRAIN OF SALT HERE, FELLAS, I COULD BE MISREMEMBERING - there's the thing Clown said about homophobia being a... not quite theme, im missing the word rn, but it'll be a factor. which makes sense, this is a cast of mostly queer characters from a late 1960s / early 1970s kid's show.

the obvious target for any homophobia, internalized or otherwise, would be Frank & Eddie. but they're not the only gay folks around. Julie (i believe) has been stated to be bi, Poppy is a lesbian, and i'll eat my cats if Sally isn't some flavor of gay.

so i think it's entirely possible that Julie might get in on that storytelling element. if the show wants her to be a love interest, maybe she is. she's just interested in the wrong person (looks intensely at Sally)

all in all, i think she's going to have an arc about resisting the role chosen for her and her struggling with that. and i think it's going to be a Big struggle. i think she might make some Horrible mistakes while grappling with her inner conflict bc of the intense effect expectation/pressure have on a person's mind

(which might uh. which might tie into the flower symbolism i rambled about yesterday, but that's so much of a stretch that it's practically molecular. still. im Thinking.)

[an-aro-without-an-ace]

An Essay On Alloaro's

Before I begin this stupidly long post, I want to add a disclaimer. This post is going to talk specifically about alloaro issues in the community, and only those issues. Everyone one in the aspec community faces issues that deserve to be talked about. That being said, there is a trend in the community to focus on issues skewing more towards asexuals and aroaces. So this post is for those who are rarely talked about. Alloaro's.

With that out of the way, lets begin. The aspec community encompasses two seperate communities of identity. The Acespec Community, asexuals and their spectrum. The Arospec Community, aromantics and their spectrum. However their is this common practice of using aspec in reference to only the Acespec community which is problematic in a few ways. This discourse has been coming up again recently with people claiming that aromantics are included under asexual using aspec to refer to asexuals. This is aromantic erasure, but it also has a heavy impact on a smaller community within the Arospec Community. One thats often forgotten about and the topic of this post.

The discourse around aromantics being under the asexual identity is extremely alloarophobic. It erases us as an identity as it implies that to be aromantic you have to be asexual or be irreversibly linked to asexuality. Its gotten to the point where "Not all aro's are ace" isn't enough to drown out the arguments, which in all honesty it never was enough. Discourse has turned into antagonism against a small community that barely ever gets its voice heard.

If you've made it this far, wonderful. Now, I'm going to break down issues we face inside and outside the aspec community and hopefully how to fix them.

Lack Of Informative Alloaro Centered Content

Its seen all the time. Aspec and LGBT positivity and informational posts simply forgetting the existence of aromantic identities or even worse, when alloaro representation ends at "Not all aro's are ace". To be clear, we have terminology that can be used beyond a single sentence of representation. Terminology that can helo those who may be questioning their orientation and are unable to even find posts about being allosexual and aromantic. How can we fix this? Simple. Acknowledge our terminology. Instead of saying a single line about us, mention us as who we are. Allosexual Aromantics.

Our Representation Being Flooded Over

I want you to imagine for a second you are in the shoes of a questioning alloaro. You've struggled with your aromanticism and don't know if thats even who are, or if you're just a "late bloomer". So, you turn to the aromantic community to try and learn about others experiences. Thats when a knot forms in your throat. As far as you can tell, almost all of the most shared, acknowledged, and featured content around the community is either blatantly asexual or aroace. You know for a fact you aren't asexual, and now you've found yourself reinforcing the idea that you can't be aromantic because of that. Just imagine that for a second. This is something tons of alloaro's have gone through before discovering that such a line of thinking is false.

How many times have you seen posts talking about how the aromantic tags get flooded with purely asexual content? Or that other aromantic identities are forgotten over the vast majority of the community favoring aroaces? This is a massive issue, and it just reinforces the idea that aromanticism and asexuality are connected or are requirements for eachother. Alloaro content and posts get burried under a slew of aroace and asexual content. Content that sometimes doesn't even get tagged as aroace, but just aromantic, making it nearly impossible to filter out for alloaros who want the allosexual part of their identity acknowledged. A passage from @aroworlds "Allosexual Aromantic Erasure: A Guide" says it best.

"Aro-aces deserve the right to see aro-ace content in aromantic spaces, but we need to address this imbalance in terms of what content dominates and how it impacts allo-aro participation in our shared community. Only then can we renegotiate a relationship that doesn’t tend to allo-aro erasure."

How can we fix it? Simple.

If your content doesnt substantially mention aromantics (more then just a sentence tacked on at the end), do not tag it aromantic. And for gods sake, NEVER tag purely asexual content as alloaro.

If your content is aroace, tag it aroace or include asexual in your tags. This allows alloaro's who want to see more representation of their allosexual identity to blacklist the term asexual in their feed. It also helps differentiate the content from being seen as aromantic and nothing else.

A Refusal To Acknowledge Or Talk About Alloaro Experiences

I've said it before and I will say it again. The alloaro experience is fundamentally different then that of aroaces, asexuals, and other identities in the Aspec community. ALL EXPERIENCES IN THE ASPEC COMMUNITY are different and simply assuming that since you've mentioned aroaces or aromantics means that you covered everything is erasure. The way we experience our aromanticism is changed due to our allosexual identities. In the aspec community, it's almost more accepted to be aroace then it is to be alloaro. In spaces for aspec discussion alloaro's often have to filter out their allosexual experiences in fear of offending or making someone who isn't allosexual uncomfortable. Rarely do you ever see a space for alloaro discussion and as a result our struggles often go unheard or even ignored by the community.

Lets take a moment to mention what we face, so that we can at least get the acknowledgement we deserve.

The coding of sexual attraction and sexual acts being inherently romantic

The vilification of sexual acts without reciprocal romantic attraction

The assumption that FWB is societal representation of alloaro's

The unspoken community caution around talking about sexual attraction or sexual experiences in the aspec community, even when tagged as aromantic or given proper warning to asexual members

Being labeled as predatory by society and even within LGBT spaces and communities

A lack of even the slightest education on how to go about sexual encounters without romantic intent in a healthy manner

The flooding of sex negative content in the aromantic tag (along with simply asexual content as a whole)

And much more I could mention but the list would drag on forever. How can we fix this? Simple.

Create more spaces for alloaro discussions and boost content that shares our struggles. Never assume you've covered our experiences because you've mentioned aroaces. Never assume you've covered our experiences because you've mentioned aromantics without specifically talking about alloaro's. Help change the atmosphere of the aspec community to make it more acceptable to talk about sexual experiences in aromantic spaces because they are not the same as asexual spaces.

Closing Statement

There is alot more I could talk about in this essay but its gotten to a length in which I doubt anyone would actually read further so I'm going to wrap things up. All aspec issues and experiences deserve to be discussed, bo matter what identity it centers around. However, that means they deserve to be discussed equally. Whether intentioned or not, refusing to acknowledge the differences in alloaro experiences is erasure, and it harms us as community. We need to elevate the voices of those who go talked over or unheard in our community. We need to stop the harmful ideas that come about when a community for all aspec identities is dominated by the views, opinions, and experiences of one side. The Aspec community is for Asexuals and Aromantics. Two separate identities with their own struggles, experiences, needs, and lives. If we can acknowledge that, and stop lumping ourselves together as if the other side doesn't exist, we can come together as a community.

Everyone deserves a voice, so lets give them one. One we're willing to hear out.

[cat-sapphics]

Hey!

I follow the" aroace lesbian" tag and your recent posts have come up in my feed so I just wanted to say that being arospec, acespec (demiromatic graysexual, both labels in the aromantic and asexual spectrums) & lesbian is completely OKAY and you should not let anyone tell you the contrary. Especially uneducated people so 😚🤍

Many aroaces use the term aroace to encompass being in both aromantic and asexual spectrums; this means you experience little to no romantic/sexual attraction and that's more than valid. You can be both arospec and aspec! 🔥 Or arospec and asexual. Aromantic and acespec 🥺🤝

The way YOU experience romantic and sexual attraction is just different to the average allo person, & that doesn't make it any less valid. Attraction is an abstract concept and we shouldn't be putting ourselves into boxes but letting feelings be that, feelings.

Your experiences are necessary and important to our diverse & big aro/ace communities as an aroace lesbian! An aspec person is that who experiences little to no romantic attraction. That's it. THAT'S OKAY 🥰

And being an aspec lesbian is more than valid too, it's not a contradictory term because the little and fluctuating romantic & sexual attraction you DO experience, is ONLY towards women/nb so; I don't see why lesbian isn't a term you can't use. A lesbian is a women/nb female aligned person who experiences romantic, sexual and/or emotional attraction towards women/nb female aligned people. Check, check & check ✅

All in all, ace lesbians, aro lesbians and aroace lesbians are ALL part of the lesbian community & our unique experiences with romance and sex are necessary and valid for it 💓

Sorry if this got long, hope I made my point clear. Aroace lesbians have always been lesbians so don't let any exclusionists steal your peace 🧡🤍💖

thank you!! thank ya thank ya thank ya!! i really appreciate it <3

i will say, i think some of the anons i got did make some valid points (obviously not everywhere you look but they at least gave me something to think about in general) but it really took me by surprise how condescending and disapproving they all were. super uneducated too, i said i experience attraction differently or at least less frequently than average allo people and like ?? that doesn't mean i'm secretly a self-hating lesbophobe ?? you don't get to determine that for me if i'm genuinely happy even though i participate in lesbian discourse and am passionate about keeping the definition specific and closed ?? lol i didn't redefine lesbian or take away its initial meaning so it really had me peeved

i think most of their comments reflect on how they don't believe in aromanticism and asexuality being a spectrum, which i guess i invited by my own doing since i have some conservative and exclusionary views on the lgbt community and that affects my following/audience, but my response to that is that i use these labels because they bring me personal comfort. when i say i'm demiromantic i don't mean that alloromantics have zero standards when it comes to a potential partner or are completely mesmerized by the idea of hook-ups, just that the connection they need to start crushing comes within a decent time period with a personal connection, but not a super strong and deep and loving one that makes it exceptionally hard to fall in love despite however much we may desire to. the label doesn't exist to imply something bad about """normal""" people, it exists to name an experience many people have but to an intense degree. so, yes, it's a pointless social construct, it probably means nothing to you and that's fine, but it still means something to me. i'm not crying oppression or marginalization, and i'm not claiming that i'm lgbt on the basis of being demiromantic/greyasexual, but through being a nonbinary lesbian. that's the difference between mspec lesbians and aspec lesbians, is one is actively harmful to multiple groups and actually Does spawn from a place of internalized lesbophobia and/or biphobia, and the other is just "mmk this is just for me and affects nothing at all, it doesn't drag you into anything at all, i still qualify for lesbian the way you (should!) see it as technically even if you do believe it's redundant, so just... leave me alone" cause it reflects more on them than me when they make it their business by unfairly assuming things about me

same applies to me being greyasexual. still trying to figure out if it means that i experience sexual/physical attraction less frequently, less intensely, or both, but does that matter?? genuinely?? this is also redundant but i didn’t wanna leave it out of the paragraph about me being demiro fk;ljslkgbdvhbs. the aro disapproval part isn’t acceptable at all but i can at least see it since romance is so normalized and is a core part of, y’know, lgb relationships; the greyace disapproval however....... i don’t wanna label it as acephobia because i don’t really believe in aphobia being a thing, but it still kinda rubs me wrong to claim that sexual/physical attraction is a requirement ykyk... NOTHING WRONG WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEX OF COURSE (i myself kinda wanna try someday if that works out) i just think frowning upon someone who doesn’t UNLESS they try to claim they’re lgbt on that basis is.................. not really cool. i really hope people who read this understand what i’m trying to say and don’t label me as an ace inclus who thinks aphobia and oppression are real, i was just trying to make a point about my personal experiences oops lmao

and then it became "aroace means NO ATTRACTION AT ALL" okay... so i'm angled aroace, that's a sub-term since aroace is literally an umbrella term, actually (unlike lesbian, shit's complicated ykyk). "YOU'RE NOT AROACE THEN"....... they don't even like the idea of oriented aroace now either, so like, what then, are aroace people just never allowed to feel love or positive feelings from other people ever? jesus christ. i'm not even getting into this, i consider aro/ace identities to be secondary to describe one's attraction so this debate should not be as important as, say, discourse centering the L, G, B, or T. it's just dumb all around tbh

hope i addressed all the arguments against it, but i can't really care at this point if i missed something :/ i'll probably get a mean anon about it so don't worry!! /s jslgjgjkshkj;lhfp

speaking of, i've had to delete so many anons and even turn off the option to ask anonymously because of this discourse. it's so pointless in my opinion, so i've just stopped giving them my time unless i think it's worth answering - but even then, i try to keep it fairly short. i genuinely was not expecting my take on (cishet) ace discourse to turn into myself failing to be seen as a "real lesbian" despite literally meeting its definitive qualifications and then it just kept building up ?? stan behavior tbh, especially since plenty of them obviously come from the same users

i apologize for the rant. i just never really felt like i'd be listened to if i tried to explain my identity, so i gave up and just tried to ignore my way out of it. so i really genuinely appreciate your ask, especially since i can identify you. it really feels like i actually have someone on my side now, so even if you ever disagree i'd know you wouldn't harass me about it. it really means a lot, i really needed this from you and i don't wanna dump more shit but i feel that you deserve to know. so thank you again <3

[fruitquake]

listen. idk what your headcanons for reg are,,, but,,,, aroace reg coming out to sirius?? brotherly feels??? if you don't vibe with that just bless me with those two brothers, i need to see them hug

mate, i literally love this prompt. here, i hope you like this and that it gives u all the black brother feels <3

hope it’s okay i made this a muggle au, they’re just what i do best lol

(also: at first sirius is quite ignorant but pls read the whole thing before judging)

-

Regulus’ heart was beating like a hummingbird’s as he raised his hand and knocked on the door to his brother's room. 

“What do you want?”

Sirius no doubt knew it was him. Their parents never knocked.

Regulus opened the door, struggling to control his breathing. “Uhm… Sirius?”

Sirius was sitting on his bed, laptop in front of him. He rolled his eyes when Regulus entered. 

“Hang on, guys,” he said to the computer screen. Regulus recognized the faces on the screen as Sirius’ friends: James, Remus, and Peter. He took out his headphones and finally looked at Regulus. “This better be important.”

“It is!” Regulus said. It was important. If Sirius knew how much courage it had taken to come in there in the first place, a kind of courage he likely wouldn’t be able to muster again, he would understand the importance. “Please, there’s something I need to tell you.” 

Sirius sighed, turning towards his computer again. For a moment, Regulus thought he was being given the cold shoulder, but then Sirius said to his friends: “Gotta go.”

He hung up and closed the computer, then looked back at Regulus, eyes softening as he noticed how nervous he was. “Everything alright, Reg?” he asked.

“Yeah,” Regulus answered in a shaky voice. Why was he so nervous? Surely, he didn’t have to worry about Sirius not accepting him, when Sirius himself understood what it was like to be… different. 

Sirius himself hadn’t gotten the luxury of coming out on his own terms. Regulus had found out about him and Remus last summer, despite Sirius’ attempts at hiding their relationship. At first, it had been difficult to look at his brother the same: Their parents’ bigoted views had gotten to him, however much he tried to deny it. But over the course of the year, he’d gotten so much better, and then… Well, he’d started to realize he wasn’t “normal”, as their parents put it, either. 

He’d thought he was gay at first. It was the only other option he knew and if he didn’t fancy girls, he had to be gay right? He’d ignored the fact that he didn’t fancy guys either, constantly telling himself that it would come eventually. But then he’d discovered the term “Aromantic”, and everything had made sense. 

“Come on, Reg,” Sirius said, gesturing for him to sit down on the bed. “Tell me what’s up.”

Regulus sat next to him. He wasn’t scared to tell Sirius anymore. He was ready. “I'm asexual,” he told him. “And aromantic.” 

The blank look in Sirius’ eyes was hard to read. “Sorry, what’s that?” he asked after a moment. 

“Well,” Regulus said. “You like boys. Some people like girls, and some again like both…”

“Very well observed, Reg.”

“And I,” Regulus told him. “I don’t like anyone. At least not in that way.”

Sirius stared for a moment, then he shook his head. “That’s not a thing,” he said. “You can’t just not like anyone.”

“No, it is a real-”

“Maybe you’re gay,” Sirius interrupted him. “Trust me, at first I was confused, too, as to why I didn’t like girls.” 

Regulus wanted to cry. His own brother didn’t believe him. “I’m not gay,” he said. 

“There’s nothing wrong with being gay!”

“That’s not what I’m saying!” 

Sirius was taken aback by the sudden raise of Regulus’ voice. He’d tried to hold the tears back but there they were, pooling up in his eyes and slowly rolling down his cheeks. 

He managed to catch Sirius’ shocked expression before turning around to leave. Before he shut the door, he briefly turned around to look at Sirius. “I thought you of all people would understand.”

-

My love <3: everything alright? we haven’t heard from u all evening and u usually never stop spamming the groupchat

Sirius looked at the text from Remus, thinking about a good response.

Sirius: Dw I’m fine. Just had a bit of an argument with Reg

He bit down on his lower lip. To call it an argument wasn’t entirely fair. He quickly added another message:

Sirius: I think i might have fucked up

My love <3: how so?

Sirius: Well, it’s kinda hard to explain in text. Can I call you?

My love <3: ofc

Remus picked up after the second ring. “Hey,” he said. “What’s going on?”

Sirius hesitated, before asking: “Have you heard the word “aromantic” before?”

“Yeah, why?”

“Well,” Sirius mumbled. “Reg told me he was aromantic. And... asexual? But… That’s not a real thing, is it?” he asked.

“Yes, Sirius, it is a real thing.”

Oh… “Shit,” he whispered, the image of Regulus running out of his room with tears in his eyes playing in his head again. “I definitely fucked up.”

“You told Regulus it wasn’t real?” Remus asked. 

Sirius sighed, rubbing his eyes. “I… Yeah.” He wanted to try and defend himself but did he really deserve that? “I’m a terrible brother,” he mumbled.

“Well, it was definitely not okay for you to invalidate his identity like that,” Remus said. “But it doesn’t make you a terrible brother. I know how much you care about him, Sirius. You just need to make it up to him and, most importantly, let him know you support him.”

Sirius nodded. “Right,” he said. “Yeah, you’re right, babe. I need to do that.”

-

The music from Regulus’ headphones was so loud he barely heard the knock on his door. He paused the music and sat up in bed, unsure if he’d really heard anything. 

He heard the next set of knocks quite clearly, though, and his brother’s voice which followed them. “Hey, can I come in?” 

Regulus thought back to his conversation with Sirius yesterday. That’s not a thing. You can’t just not like anyone.

“No,” he answered. “Leave me alone.”

“Reg, please,” Sirius said. “I have something for you!”

“Go away.”

There was a pause, and Regulus thought Sirius might’ve left, but after a while he said: “I’ll just slide it under the door, then.”

Regulus turned on his music again and turned away from the door, but he still saw the piece of paper sliding through the small space underneath the door. He didn’t care. Whatever it was, he didn’t want it.

The song ended and a new one began, the loud bass drowning out the world. But it couldn’t silence his curiosity…

He glared at the piece of paper on the floor, before finally giving in and picking it up. 

His heart caught in his throat. It looked like a handmade card of sorts. In the middle, Sirius had drawn a heart, one side in the colours of the asexual flag, the other coloured like the aromantic one. Above the heart he’d written, in pretty cursive letters: “Sorry,” and underneath: “I was a dick.” The “was” has been scratched out and replaced with “am”.  

Regulus teared up, but this time they were tears of joy, as he rushed out the door. He almost collided with Sirius, who was still standing in the hallway. He glanced nervously at Regulus.

“I know this doesn’t make things right,” Sirius said. “But… I hope it counts for something.”

Regulus nodded, looking down at the card still clutched in his hands. It was clear that a lot of effort had been put into it.

Sirius put his hand on Regulus’ shoulder and he looked back up at him. There was a sincere look in his eyes, something Regulus had never seen from him before.

“I’m sorry I was so ignorant, and so quick to judge,” Sirius said. “That’s exactly how people treat me for my sexuality, so… I really should’ve known better. I’m sorry.”

Regulus bit down on his lower lip. He wasn’t going to cry in front of his brother again; it was embarrassing enough the first time. 

“I just want you to know,” Sirius said, “That you have my full support, Reg. I… Yesterday, after our conversation, I spent hours doing research and I found out some really interesting things. Did you know sexuality is a whole spectrum?” His eyes glistened with excitement. “Like, asexuality and aromanticism are even spectrums of themselves! Isn’t that cool?”

Regulus couldn’t help but grin. He was having trouble concealing his own excitement. “Yeah,” he said. “That’s cool, Sirius.”

Before he even realized what was happening, Sirius pulled him into a hug. A real, warm, brotherly hug. Regulus couldn’t remember ever being hugged like that before. He didn’t quite know how to feel about it.

“Y’know,” he said, arms hanging awkwardly in the air as he wasn’t sure where to put them. “I really appreciate your support, but this is kinda weird. We never hug.” 

That only made Sirius hug him tighter. “We do now,” he said. “C’mon, just roll with it, you’re ruining the moment.

Slowly, Regulus returned the hug. It actually, strangely, felt… Good? “Thank you,” he mumbled, feeling safer and more loved than he remembered ever feeling before. 

Sirius chuckled. “We should do this more often.”

[saltyaro]

[Image description: The cover of the 5th book of Aromantic (love) Story. It features a drawn woman in a red tank top, a white skirt that hides her heels, and red high heels shoes. She has her hands on her hips and looks confident.]

You know what I forgot to do? That review on the 5th and last tome of aromantic (love) story. For those who weren’t aware yet, I’m not going to keep the suspense going on any longer: yes, it is safe, no, the heroine doesn’t end up as a straight woman. That’s already a victory in itself, so now all of you can go ahead and buy it if it’s available in your country ;) 

The actual review is under the read more, it’s not spoiler free so!

So, Futaba (the main character) tried dating to see if she’s able to develop romance, or not. The person she chose to do so with of course knows about it, and they’re actually both trying it to see if they can understand romance. Futaba still can’t imagine romantic attraction outside of sexual attraction, which frustrates her, because she *knows* allo aces are a thing so obviously, sexual desire isn’t necessarily linked! The viewpoint of her (straight dude) partner-in-crime is...well, not surprising at all, actually. His opinion is that romantic feelings are born of, on one hand, wanting the other person’s happiness, while also wanting to possess them and keep them all to yourself. 

This is, well. A very Straight Man™ way of seeing things, but, on the other hand, this point of view isn’t limited to them. (I promise, I’m not going to ramble about how it’s scary that society puts such a violent feeling as the most beautiful and important. Not on this post at least)

Fun note, at least for me, you have the classical “guy is sick, girl brings him medicine” except...Futaba gives him the medicine and just. Leaves. I love her. Well, she ends up going to his apartment, but that’s where her being aro really stands out. Usually, in a basic romcom, everyone’s flushed, and it’s annoying. But Futaba is aro, so she isn’t embarrassed, she just sees someone she cares about being sick and wants to help. She’s very natural and stoic about the whole situation. It may seem like a detail, but honestly I find that so important!

She explains that, when she was a teenager, she avoided men as much as possible (to avoid romance) and I relate. So fucking much. I don’t know if any of you did the same, but with my parents bugging me about boys, I just avoided them as much as possible (with a few exceptions). I didn’t feel unsafe around men yet back then, so I know that’s not what it was. 

She explains she was afraid of creating misunderstandings, and ended up not using the world “love” at all because of that. I relate to that so much too, I’m trying to heal from that, and I think it’s important, really important, for us as a community, to learn to separate love from romance. Anyway, this kind of struggle that just...hinders your vocabulary options is really a shame, and I’m glad to see a character mention it (and not be shamed for it!).

Are you ready for some Hetero Bashing™? Because Futaba reunites with her friends and they talk a bit. The Straight dude (Kyosuke) asked Futaba to think about marrying him, and she’s a bit “huuuuuh” so she talks about it to her friends. Friend 1 is like “well, you don’t need to be *in romance* to get married. I have friends, a straight dude and a lesbian, who got married by necessity” and Futaba expresses that she never thought such a thing would happen to her, she never thought of marriage being an option for her. Friend 2 they says that it’s the contrary for her, impossible to avoid the idea of marriage and children, despite not wanting either, because it’s been so ingrained in her head. “you know, the “to perpetuate the specie” argument, like having descendance is every human’s mission...”

And the friend 1 says “ah...the perfect exemple of a notion made by straight people to validate their point of view!” and I love that?? I mean, in general, even in the larger queer community, we’re dancing around the argument, finding proof that there are non-straight animals in all species, and all. She then adds “If reproductions is *that* important...then rich single people could have a ton of kids using articifial fertilization and bingo, they’d have contributed to society’s well-being!” Friend 2 is like “uuuuh, that would raise ethical issues” to what friend 2 answers: “Personally, I kinda reaaally don’t care for lessons of morality from a society that considers sexual minorities and childfree people as useless. If we consider that humanity will necessarily go extinct one day, then mating to reproduce is nothing but a useless cycle”. I really like that take which’s why I *had* to share it despite it being so long to read haha. 

Futaba is surprised by her words, so friend 2 explains that friend 1 is worried that a straight guy is going to steal Futaba from them, and she doesn’t want to be abandoned. Friend 1 is bi but that’s a very aro sentiment here tbh. 

(Straight bashing, over)

You have the usual meeting with the family...god, how realistic is that, you see your aunt and uncle you haven’t seen in maybe years and the only thing they’re interested in, is whether or not you’ve found a romantic partner. I swear, I got annoyed for the character cause it’s so true. She’s bothered (and I am too) by her grandma’s affirmation that everyones gets married someday. I hate that, it really, really annoys me that I supposedly can’t be free to make my own decisions! But she also knows that it would be useless to explain to her grandma that her words are paternalism, so she lets her be. Because she means well, and maybe that’s the worst thing about amatonormativity and its assumptions...that the people upholding those mean well. 

The manga also touches (rapidly) on Futaba feeling of guilt for not being sincere with her family. Her parents aren’t pressuring her to get married, but she knows that seeing their only child, still single, and over 30, is sure to make them worried (especially given she’s not exactly wealthy). I can’t express how much I love seeing a character like that, she knows what she wants, but there’s still this lingering feeling that keeps you from feeling totally at ease, regardless of how much confidence you’ve got. It’s only natural and nothing to be ashamed of. 

I think one of my favourite moments of this book - maybe of all the serie? is after Kyosuke’s friends remotivates Futaba by, basically, telling her to do what she always did, fight out of spite, even if that means to accept to sometimes take hits (this happens throught the phone). Kyosuke says to his friend, that he would never have neeb able to say such things to him, and his friend answers that love blinds him, and prevents him from seeing what she really needs. To that, Kyosuke doesn’t answer, and his friend understands immediately and says “That look...maybe you actually nurture this self-deception.” 

And I love this moment because, for Futaba to be happy, she needs to be single, and free. From him, and his expectations of romance, because even though he knows, rationally speaking, that she won’t ever feel the same, he still wants her, and still wants to be the one at her side - when no one should be. Not in a partnership way anyway. He’s actually choosing to ignore the rational part of him because he still hopes for her to make the difficult choice, and stay at his side, because it’s not really that he wants her to be happy but rather, that he wants to be the one to make her happy, which is of course, extremely selfish and possessive. I love that it’s just laid here, without ambiguity. What’s great also, is that the straight dude in romo realizes what he’s doing, even if he tries to ignore that. Later in the manga, Kyosuke thinks to himself that he couldn’t help but hope that she would concecede, yield, and accept him, despite knowing that’s not what she needs, and knowing that’s not the way you build a positive relationship. I...don’t know if alloro usually know they’re doing such things? I don’t know what’s worse, to be confident you’re not doing that shit when you’re doing it, or to keep on doing it even though you’re aware. 

On a sidenote, I really, really like that she got boosted by the least expected person? They don’t like each other, they’re more or less at each other’s throat most of the time cause he’s sexist and unsentitive, but in the end, he was touched by the anger in the beginnings of her work, and it built a sort of...professional trust between the two of them. Like, those characters won’t ever be friends, but there’s still that little place of trust between them, it’s a delicate portrayal of ambiguous relationships. 

Basically, what ends the manga, if the end of Futaba’s own manga (the romantic comedy). And I really like the outlook she has on it, at the end of her 2 years and a half of work. Even though she didn’t want to write such a thing, in the end, she met a lot of people thanks to it, and, through challenging her own vision of relationships and romance, she finally managed to complete her certitude in herself and who she is. I think that’s a lovely parallel. 

It also ends her questions, and she rejects Kyosuke (I usually can’t help but laugh when a Straight man gets rejected in fiction I’m an asshole I know). Their conversation is really lovely after that, and challenged the expectations of partnership. Kyosuke asks her if she would have accepted his proposal if, like one year ago, he didn’t feel anything towards her. And her answer is no. She did think about it, imagining their marriage as a fake straight couple, and how she knew that, while it would have asked concessions and sacrifices from both of them, they could have been happy.  But what she needs isn’t some stability based on renunciations, but ton confront reality, so she can live in agreement with herself. 

Also, the moment after her choice, loneliness and worry strike her, and she acknowledges that feeling, because it’s okay, it doesn’t mean she made the wrong choice. It will pass. 

The younger guy who’s also in romance with her, interestingly enough, resolves the situation in a very mature way. He asks her if she’s found her answer, when they’re about to part ways (he’s no longer her assistant), and she says that, yes, she doesn’t feel romance - and he thanks her, for having endured his weirdness all this time, and bids her farewell. And we then have his thoughts - while his decisions, to act that way, was difficult for him, he did so because it was the right thing to do and he realized that insisting would have bothered her. That was nice. The situation is weird for Futaba too, because, as his senior, she kinda felt responsible for him, protective maybe? And she’s a bit overwhelmed by how much this kid’s grown. 

There’s an epilogue of sorts, and we can see that Futaba decided to entirely live while being true to herself, which also means making some changes. 

To conclude: I really liked this serie! It’s nice to see a woman over 30, finally embracing herself - despite having gone through doubts, even at her age - after making sure she was right about her feelings. She’s, well, asexual I think, but it’s the aro part that matters to her, and really has an influence on her life, the ace part is more of an afterthought. It’s also nice to see a nonamorous aromantic woman! Aro women are already hard to grasp in our amatonormative and migogynistic society, so a nonamorous one probably even more so. 

It was overall a really nice experience, I’m not going to say everything was perfect, and her aromanticism is the topic of the story, but Futaba is also her own person and this is never downplayed in favour of talking about her identity. Definitely something too rare and, as such, very enjoyable. 

[notlikelyneurotypical-blog]

I am so upset over the Gaud "discourse" (bullying) I can't sleep, so here is me running through the "reciepts" because every time Gaud talks someone jumps on and attacks..

A little perspective, I had never heard of @biggest-gaudiest-patronuses until last month. So I'm not an avid follower, I didnt participate in Gaudapocolpyse, or watch any of the livestreams- I just hate bullying and railroading. I am a female Autistic Jew who has survived childhood sexual abuse (and I'm adding that because of some of the stuff people are accusing Gaud of).

I went through the "reciepts" you can find on biggest-gaudiest-callout the updated version as of January 27, 2019 and I made notes. So buckle up cause this is going to be a long post. Bear with me I am on a cell phone so there will probably be a plethora of grammar and spelling errors. Here goes:

-the callout starts by stating that Guad is 27 and has a mostly minor fanbase this statement is made on the assumption that tumblr is 13+ and Guad makes "teenage humor" whatever that means, I'm a legal adult and I like the jokes, and one anon stating that they and their friends are 13/14. So it is just flat out assuming and you know what they say about assuming.

-next it states that Gaudpocalypse was a protest for the NSFW ban, which isn't true. It actually started because a person commented about an actual holiday (I believe in Catholasism) that had to do with pink that fell on the day. It was in the works before tumblr announced the change, so this was flat out bad fact checking.

-Gaud also commented that the "sexy" fan art they were expecting was Patrick Star in fishnets type stuff. They used NSFW, because as a fellow autistic they were taking it literally to mean Not Safe For Work, so not something you'd want to explain to a boss or co-worker- not porn.

-They have already addressed the Tuba fanfic, which is also not porn.

-Taking "age is just a number. a number estimating your proximity to death." to be pedophile related are purposely ignoring Guad's morbid death humor that they are known for.

-If we are vilifying people for reading yaoi, add me to the list. I went through a hard SasuNaru phase and not even 5% of it was G rated. (and you know what, I was a minor when I got into it and now that I've aged out of minorhood doesnt mean that I instantly stop liking what I liked).

-Shota: I went through a phase where I read rape, pedophilia, and even incest fanfics. And you know what, it was actually encouraged by my therapist. Sometimes people look at dark things because they are trying to work through their trauma. Now I don't know Guad's past, I don't know if there was abuse or anything, but either way: reading a manga, a fanfic, or even watching anime does not make you an abuser or pedophile. Sometimes it is a person the pedophile left behind trying to take control or figure things out. (The comparison is like saying that people that read James Patterson are serial killers or that only perverts watch Law and Order SVU).

-P.S. stop calling manga child porn. It cheapens what child porn actually is and the victims of it.

-"Recommending" Big Mouth on Netflix, personally I haven't watched a single episode, but it seems about the same level as South Park. It isnt meant for kids. And it obviously got approved by Netflix, so take it up with them if you don't like it.

-Okay hot take, apparently saying you don't want MAPs interacting with you coupled with wanting to know if someone is over 18 before you find them attractive makes you a pedophile- makes sense /sarcasm

-As a Jew, the whole sumptuary laws post was witty word play not antisemitism that Gaud wasnt even the OP for. (although the laws themselves are hella antisemitic, or at least were used for that purpose.) ((still doesnt make the two equal)).

-Wearing a kimono is not racist- I think you need a dictionary and a lesson on racism.

-Autism and Asexuality; Guad's post was about figuring yourself out and said "people on the autism spectrum are significantly more likely than general populace to identify as asexual or aromantic" - this is statistically accurate, there is no ableist statement here. They did not say all Autistics are asexual or that Autistics can't have romantic or sexual relationships, Gaud simply stated a fact and it was said in a post about themselves ans trying to figure out what they are.

-Reblogging a 12 year olds address for furbies, yeah not a good or smart decision and Gaud deleted the post. Nothing else can be done about it now and this happened over a year ago and as far as I've seen Gaud learned for the mistake ans hasn't done anything like that again.

-The Discord Server. Gaud asked for the server to be taken down. People are blaming Guad because they created the server and when they left things went south. The users were breaking Discord ToS and doing horrible things. However l, blaming Guad because they created the server is like blaming Ford for drunk drivers because they made the car.

-Canabalism- this is laughable. 98% of the time Gaud is posting as an incorpreal eldritch being...just really look at the blog as a whole and ask yourself if you're making smart conclusions.

-The "crayon fiasco": Guad raised money to eat a crayon on livestream. People have taken issue with this for a variety of reasons. 1) "Gaud said the money was for rent and bought champagne" no, no they didnt, that was a joke. The money was indeed for rent, the cheap champagne was bought with a gift card. 2) "The money could have gone to medical expenses or someone in need." People are allowed to give and not give however they see fit. This arguement is about as strong as standing in front of a movie theater and shouting that the patrons should donate their money to food banks instead of watching a show and when they still go watch the movie calling the movie evil forexisting. 3) "Gaud is manipulating minors into giving them money" first of all most minors don't have that much money and I see it no more manipulative (actually I see it way less manipulative) than my sister asking my mom for money for Club Penguin. It is paying for entertainment which we do all the time and I still have yet to see the stats that it is "mostly minors".

I'm just over everyone railroading and bullying Gaud. When Guad does apologize for something people start screaming that the apology is manipulation. You have made a situation where there is no winning. Gaud ignores the callouts and you don't like. Gaud asks for information on some of the accusations and they get called names. Gaud apologizes ans gets accused of manipulating. What do you honestly want? You have built an argument on stunted facts, and just scream loud enough and long enough trying to get Guad to break. People have already started blocking Guad based on the telephone game of rumors and "reciepts" that I just went through. Enough is enough. If you don't want to follow Gaud or read their posts that is up to you, but just be quiet already. In the words of Frozen "Let It Go".

@biggest-gaudiest-patronuses if you want me to take this down I will, it is your business after all. I just couldn't stand idly by and watch what these people are doing.

[elexuscal]

I find myself so perpetuallly... frustrated by the discussion regarding Good Omen’s and the queer representation. From both side of the debates. 

Like, on one hand, as someone ace, I am always craving more asexual rep. While not being aromantic either, I also value that representation that focuses on deeply intimate friendships, or what could be called queer platonic relationships. And as a writer and biologist who just gets deeply frustrated by how people generally always project human sexual and gender norms onto non-human (or non-biological) beings, I appreciate a lot of the subtly on these issues in the Good Omens show.

So for this, I get pretty cheesed at people saying that on screen and/or implied sex is the only way to show meaningful queer relationships. I also get frustrated by people even saying romantic relationships with on-screen kisses. That’s a great way to deligitimise aro/ace’s experiences.

So, yeah. In that sense, I really loved the Crowely/Aziraphale relationship depicted in the show, and the last scene with the nightengale... mm, made me feel warm and tingly.

THAT SAID

Hey, I also get the other side! Anathema/Newt got a sex scene, while Shadwell and Madame Tracey got to move in together! Wouldn’t it be nice to get something that explicit?!

 And the explicitness wouldn’t even be fore me as a queer person. I know how to pick up on subtext; most of us do. It used to be all we could get. It’s more for the straight audience, you know? The ones who still are on the fence about queer stuff, or generally oblivious to it.

 I’ve sat with my parents as the most queer, UST-laden scenes have played out in things like The 100 or The Favourite, only for them to be completely sucker punched when two ladies to start making out. There’s no way folks like them are gonna be reading Crowley and Az as queer. 

So even though i wouldn’t personally call Good Omens queer-baiting, I also understand why some people are! And I respect their perspective! They’re folks who have been burned before, who are tired, who want something better! That’s all fair.

And then there’s the question of Authorial Intent. 

I like me some Death of the Author; I honestly have a lot of respect for Gaiman embracing it here. At the same time, I also think knowing an artist’s perspectives and backgrounds can be valuable for reading a work. (Which is what everything comes down to- there’s rarely one single interpretation of a piece, but many!) 

I’ve seen a lot of people saying Neil Gaiman’s written plenty of great queer characters before, so he can’t be criticised for any failings here.... Eh, I don’t buy that argument. I’ve made plenty of great cakes before. I’m still capable of making a bad cake. And if I sold that cake to folks, and some of those people didn’t like it, well- they’re free to say so. If they give some advice on how to make it better in future, I’m free to take it. Even if I don’t, other bakers might.

Plus, some folks have pointed out that Gaiman’s writing of other queer characters have been... less than ideal. Honestly, I’m not super familiar with Gaiman’s work outside GO (I’ve read some Sandman, some Marvel 1602, read American Gods, watched Coraline), so I’m really can’t comment much here. From a brief piece of research, I did find some pretty gross transphobic stuff here. I suppose I’d just generally encourage folks to do research, consider things in context, and don’t put anybody on a pedestal. 

I’ve also seen some similar stuff about Terry Pratchett. And yeah, Pratchett wrote some very powerful stuff that can be read with a queer lens, like the women dwarves of Discworld and all of Monstrous Regiment (both of which I hold dear to my heart). At the same time, explicitly queer characters were pretty sparse in his novels, and a number of his books made some pretty gross jokes about ‘mannish’ women that hurt both cis and trans women. 

And listen! I still like both of their writing! Love it, in fact! But that doesn’t mean I’m going to ignore the flaws in their works!

Nothing gained by rushing to Gaiman’s defense here, acting like he can’t be criticised. He’s a world famous, highly successful author. He can take critique. Some people have legitimate frustrations with how this queer stuff was handled. Let them air their frustrations. Even if Gaiman doesn’t see them, or respond to them, some other creator might- and we might get better queer representation elsewhere.

---

TL;DR-

- There’s some aspects of Crowley and Azriphale’s depiction that deeply resonates with queer viewers, especially the ace and aro communities.

- There are other aspects that felt too subtle or handwashy for some.

- Both perspectives are valid. We can discuss both sides without being cruel or dismissive of each other.

[posi-pan]

Hi, I’m not ace but I 100% support them and I know for a fact they are part of the lgbt community. I have a question though: “cishet” means cisgender heterosexual, and far as I can tell, aces can’t be heteroSEXUAL because they don’t feel sexual attraction (they can be, however, heteromantic, right?) so... I believe that “cishet” automatically wouldn’t include aces. Am I wrong? Please educate me if you can. Thank you.

hi ok so I’m not ace either, so I’m definitely not the person to be reaching out to about this, but I’ll try my best to explain it as I understand from seeing aspec people talk about this.

this is probably going to get a bit long and rambly

the way anti-ace people weaponize “cishet” against aspec people is that they don’t use it to mean “cis heterosexual” they use it to mean “cis heterosexual OR heteroromantic” because one can be cis, asexual, and heteroromantic or cis, aromantic, and heterosexual. and in their mind, therefor those people are “cishet” because, again - in their mind, the attraction those people experience, whether romantic or sexual, is “straight”.

actually, I take it back that they don’t use “cishet” to mean “cis heterosexual” because some do, so when they say “cishet ace” they could be invalidating or erasing or minimizing asexuality. in the way anti-ace people do when they claim asexual means you don’t want/like sex. like, “just because you don’t want sex doesn’t make you queer/lgbt, you’re still straight” that sort of thing. that sort of very wrong, very ignorant thing.

but I’ve seen a lot of aspec people (rightfully) argue that “cishet” means “cis, heterosexual, AND heteroromantic” so no, a cis ace heteroromantic person or cis aro heterosexual person is not “cishet”. and also that to allocishet people, ace and aro people are not the same as them, they don’t experience the same things and are not included in society’s idea of what the ~status quo is for attraction and relationships. the way anti-ace queer people reject aces/aros from their community is the same way non-queer people reject them from their’s.

and also when people say heteroromantic aces or heterosexual aros belong with non-queer people over queer people, and use “cishet” to exclude them, it doesn’t make sense to me, because people outside of queer, more specifically aspec, circles are not going to think, “ah you’re heterosexual but what’s your romantic orientation?” or vice versa, ya know? they conflate sexual and romantic attraction, which is why aspec people who have different attractions are not the same as and shouldn’t and most likely wouldn’t be included/accepted as the same as non-queer people.

(then there’s the whole “aspec people don’t face oppression” argument to exclude them, which is just literally, factually incorrect, on both the claim and the basis of inclusion. but that’s another topic.)

idk if any of this made sense or is worded properly or in the best way but I tried

also the blog asexualadvice is all about aspec identities, so you should check it out, they’ll probably have a lot more helpful information on this. also this thread from asexualjournal on twitter, and their account as a whole, is very informative.

and for anyone reading this: no, this is not an invitation to tell me aspec people aren’t queer. your message will be deleted/you will be blocked.

because spoiler alert: all aspec people are queer and part of the community.

[aroworlds]

Because this is a very long, multi-part ask from an anon, I’ve copied the whole thing into a new post for ease of reading:

To be honest, in the past I was on the exclusionists’ side with the SAM (Split Attraction Model). It’s harmful! Stop forcing it on people! Attractions don’t need to be separated like that! Even though I myself am technically aroace. I was angry because I felt like I was being erased and spoken over in the ace community. I felt like I was being forced to separate my romantic and sexual attraction when they weren’t separate. It made me furious that I couldn’t make a post or comic calling myself asexual without some ace commenting, “no, asexuality is actually x aces can do/feel y that’s not what asexual means!” As if I’m confused.

So basically I hated that the SAM was forced on the word asexual any time someone used it. I’ve somewhat changed my mind recently: I now understand that splitting attraction is crucial to some people, but I do think we need something else because I can also understand genuine reasons why some are adverse to it and feel like its forced on them. There has been concern with using existing terminology and splitting them into romantic and sexual attractions.

Maybe instead of doing this we could create terms that are shorter and mean the same, combining the two attractions into one distinct identity. For example, a panromantic asexual is, uhh, tresexual? Not the real alternative–just to show what I mean. Arosexual or aseromantic could be umbrella terms for aspecs who feel one type of attraction and not the other. I’m not saying we should abandon the terms we have now.

Like I said, I’m not against the SAM any more (I’m sorry I ever was) and definitely think anyone can identify how they want. But I think we as a community need labels that are more concise and convey more information. I think it will make it easier for aspecs to find people that are most like them instead of just one part.

Just so folks know: you (general you) don’t need to insist to me that you’ve changed your ways. You don’t need to prove to me that you’ve learnt better. You can just say “I no longer believe that” and leave the conversation there. I dislike the purity culture tendency of having to constantly demonstrate one’s growth and resulting apology in order to reveal a less-palatable truth about the people we were, and I’m not going to demand it of the people who are doing the risky and dangerous thing of revealing their past in conversation with me.

We can’t grow as a community unless we talk about the beliefs we held and why we held them. We will fail in outreach to others if people don’t feel safe to talk about their history–we will fail to learn the unspoken undercurrents of why harmful attitudes are compelling. Folks who have learnt and changed are a vital bridge between two sides, and I think any requirement to constantly apologise or offer up reassurances for making a mistake long after is only going to stop the people we most need to hear from talking to us.

And oh is this a reason we need to better discuss and understand.

It is difficult to have conversations about aromanticism that encompass the non-split attractions of asexuals and aros who don’t use the SAM while still highlighting the experience of aromanticism as felt by folks (ace and allo alike) who do need the SAM. The fact that I’ve had to write out your identity with such a clumsy, ridiculous line to clarify your shape of ace against other shapes of ace encapsulates this in a nutshell: for crying out loud, asexuals who don’t use the SAM! That’s not your ace identity! The fact that I do not know a better way to talk about you (or the non-SAM-using ace character in an earlier ask) in clear, simple, concise language is a problem. I shouldn’t have to keep referencing the SAM just to clarify your particular identity and experiences. Anon, I know you live this and don’t need my explaining to you the exceedingly obvious, but I’m writing this out because my attempt to respond to you is such an example of the problem you’re discussing with how we use the SAM, and it only worsens when you have to endure folks correcting you in discussing your identity. When I can’t even respond to your asks to validate you without floundering, we have a problem.

Right now, we either push aside non-split aces and aros to focus on the rough groupings of aro, ace and aro-ace, or we settle on awkward attempts to include you. Neither is good enough.

I want to stress that you should feel angry, othered, alienated and hurt by the sheer degree of circumlocution needed to talk about your experience as distinct from folks who identify as aro-ace and alloromantic asexuals, and the corrections you endure when you do talk about who you are without it. I’ve felt the pain of losing a word myself: when I came out as agender in 2012, it meant genderless (other neutral-gender meanings now used for agender were covered by neutrois) and it is a difficult and alienating thing to see my identity used to include other experiences of having a gender. In my case, I do have the word genderless to fall back on, but I still feel divorced from a word that was once fully my own. I am still corrected by agender-as-neutral-gender folks telling me it isn’t a problem that agender is conceptualised as a gender instead of as the absence of one, even though said conceptualisation is a constant microaggression I endure from the non-binary community. We talk on the evolution of language in LGBTQIA+ communities and the importance of accepting these shifts to be more inclusive; we don’t talk about the pain of having one’s identity shift to mean broader umbrellas and how to manage when we’ve lost that precise word to say exactly who we are. We don’t validate each other in our feelings of losing language, and in not doing this, I think our activism falls short.

When we do try to talk on the pain of this language and identity loss, we’re seen as regressive or hateful–even exclusionary. We’re seen as holding back the LGBTQIA+ community’s progression and growth. Is it any wonder that some folks lean in exclusionist directions when there’s no space to recognise, discuss or explore our feelings?

The fact that ace means many things is a problem, and most of us, myself included, lean on aro-ace in our conversations because we don’t have the lexicon to handle aces and aros with non-split attraction.

At the same time, anon, I am so leery of conjuring words for allosexual aros to describe individually the combination of our split attractions.

My first argument against is that aromanticism already makes us less allosexual to non-a-specs. Conversely, allosexual attractions also tend to make us less a-spec in a-spec spaces where aro is treated as a second thought to the ace. Alloromantic asexuals have the advantage of ace being an aspect of their identity, the more recognised and centred side of the a-spec umbrella in a-spec spaces; allosexual aros have the disadvantage of being aro, the less recognised and actively de-centred side of the same umbrella in a-spec spaces. To have a word that doesn’t specify both the aromantic-spectrum or the allosexual attraction identities seems a thing that to me will be taken advantage of by allo-allo spaces and a-spec spaces alike, to further erase and deny whichever part of allo-aro they find inconvenient or difficult. It will also exclude us from the communities based around our allosexual attractions, communities that already erase and deny us.

The reason I tried to deny my pansexuality for so long, to ignore the fact that both grey-ace and ace didn’t fit me all the time (honestly: more of the time) was to better belong in a-spec spaces–to be included in the community in ways aro alone, at the time, didn’t grant me. I felt I had to be aro-ace because aro wasn’t enough to be heard and accepted. Even now, there’s little to no conversation on being gay and aro, bisexual and aro, heterosexual and aro, or lesbian and aro (amongst other allosexual aro identities) in aro-spec spaces, and language that doesn’t name our allosexual attraction, I fear, won’t halt that trend.

Secondly, our attractions are split, so why not the language used to describe it? Why shouldn’t the language directly encapsulate the nature of our identities and experiences by requiring two words to communicate it? My abrosexuality and my aromanticism are two different things–shaping each other, yes, but separate experiences nonetheless. I have no need to merge them together in a way that is unnatural to me. I want the world to see the component parts of who I am. I see your suggestion as a way to un-split our language, to create singular and unified terms for two experiences. While there’s every possibility that some folks will like this, I think it diminishes and disregards the reasons why many aro-aces (especially in aro-spec spaces) ID as aro-ace and why many allo-aros require two words.

Lastly, I do not see how the structures of the words you’ve offered are any improvement on already-extant language (like “pansexual aro”) in terms of communicating meaning when this is already communicated without undue difficulty. We already have umbrella terms in allo-aro and allo-ace; I don’t understand the point in replacing these with another single word.

The problem is not the existence and use of the SAM. The problem is not the terms aro-ace, allo-aro and allo-ace. Introducing specific un-split words for the combination of a person’s split romantic and sexual attraction isn’t a solution, anon, because it does not address the problem we’re facing in how we use language or how it is currently harming you.

The problem as I see it is that “ace” is used to mean, simultaneously, allo-ace, aro-ace, ace-spectrum and non-SAM-using-ace. That’s four different meanings and experiences attached to the same word! That is what we need to address: the fact that there is no distinct, non-clumsy term for depicting precisely how you are ace, because it can be used, alone, to mean four different things. That is where the lack of clarity lies, not in words like “pansexual aro” or “panromantic ace”. In fact, if using “allo-ace” were more common (as a descriptor, not an identity) in ace-spec spaces by allo-aces, I suspect it would be easier for you to exist as ace alone without using the SAM and enduring the “but aces can experience aromantic attraction!” corrections.

In that light, it seems to me that the easiest solution for clarity of language and expression of pride and identity is to crate a new modifying term before “ace” and “aro” for non-SAM-using aces and non-SAM-using aros. This is not a good answer and I will acknowledge that. I’m sure, anon, that you connect to ace as much as I connect to agender, that you want to use your own word to describe who you are. I’m not offering this lacking knowledge of what it’ll cost you to conjure a word that describes, solely and specifically, non-SAM-using ace when ace alone fits that use in your heart and history.

This way, though, better fits how the community already uses language; it doesn’t require a complete overhaul of established terminology. It also gives you space to communicate your shape of ace now without waiting on the rest of the ace-spec community to catch up.

I’d look at finding another word or prefix, so we have aro-aces, allo-aces and [invented word]-aces. In other words, every ace fits under the umbrella of ace with an accompanying prefix describing their shape of ace, so you don’t have to identify as aro-ace or reference the SAM at all. Uni-aces/aros? Mono-aces/aros? A prefix that means “only” or “wholly”? I don’t know what that prefix might be, and I am not the right person to choose it–this conversation should be had amongst a-specs who don’t use the SAM. I’m just throwing out a couple of words so folks get a sense of what I’m suggesting and how it might work.

I’ll stress that I don’t mean that you need to identify as [invented word]-ace: I don’t identify as allo-aro or aro-ace, but instead use those words to communicate my experiences where appropriate and as a reference to how I am aro-spec. I mean this usage in the same way: you identify as ace and ace alone, and when someone questions you or expresses confusion, this is a tool to describe how you are ace, just as allo-ace and allo-aro describes a way of being ace and aro.

I do want to conclude by validating you, again, anon, in your pain–and you are free to disagree with my conclusion, as is anyone else. Please, everyone, take my words as a discussion point, disregard them where necessary and get a conversation going, even if that conversation is proving me wrong, because we need a solution above all. I hate that in writing this post I must hurt you by using clumsy and alienating constructions to convey my meaning. There’s nothing right about my language in this post, and I am so sorry that I don’t know how better to refer to you as the ace you are and refer to, specifically, your shape of ace.

Whatever happens from this post on, we must do better.

[kissed-by-aphrodite]

Recently, I’ve seen a bit of a reigniting of the ongoing “argument” between people in the LGBT+ community who identify bisexual and who identity as pansexual. I don’t know if something specific had occurred to add fuel to the fire, if perhaps I am just coming across a few rogue threads and such that don’t represent that larger goings-on of the community, or something else entirely, but honestly watching and reading some of the things being said has made me feel sick to my stomach. I don’t know if this post will help the discourse, or if it will further worsen it... but if I don’t speak my mind and my heart, I will be devastated for it.

I will not attempt to speak on the definition of bisexuality, or what anyone who is bisexual has been through. I do not identify as bisexual, and therefore can not speak from a place of personal experience. I do, however, identify as pansexual, and I do so proudly. My personal definition of pansexuality is to feel romantic and/or sexual attraction regardless of gender. This means, to me, that when I love someone, my attraction to them has nothing to do with whether they are male, female, gender fluid, non binary, trans, cis, or any other variation on or off the gender spectrum. I love them for their mind, their heart, their soul.

When I see people arguing about the validity of bisexuality, pansexuality, and their apparent “interchangeability”, it frustrates me. Sexuality, gender identity, gender expression, romantic attraction, etc. are all beautiful, regardless of how they are expressed or labeled. The only time that things get ugly is when we attempt to attack, belittle, and invalidate each other. I have seen people throw around a multitude of definitions for the label of “bisexual”, those people being of the label bisexual themselves or otherwise. I have also seen the same thing done for the label of “pansexual”. I have a friend who identifies as gay, yet he has felt attraction to women and can become emotionally connected to them. He holds firm that the term “gay” fits with how he identifies and views himself. Who am I to tell him any different?

My journey to discovering my own sexuality was a long, difficult, harrowing one. I was experiencing residual conflicts from trauma I experienced as a child. I was in an intolerant community. I was incredibly ignorant in the many different facets of the LGBT+ community. I did not have an idols or role models. I was lost. I began to feel different at an extremely young age, but still did not find the label that truly felt good in my heart until I was 18 years old. I am 20 now. Being able to call myself Pansexual has brought a lightness and joviality to my life these past two years that I never could have dreamed of when I was growing up. And for someone, whether they are in the LGBT+ community or otherwise, to try and take that away from me breaks my heart. I have watched those dear to me suffer because they dared to be themselves. I have felt fear for my gay friend going to college on his own. I have felt fear for my lesbian friend going home to her family for the first time after coming out. I have felt fear for my bisexual friend when a boy she was out with found out she had been with girls and began making exceedingly leud comments. I have felt fear for my non-binary friend when they chose a new name and began going by it in public. I felt feet for my transgendered friend when he corrected someone who called him by the wrong pronouns. I have felt fear for my Muslim friend when she wore her hijab in public. I have felt fear for my black friend when we were walking on a dark street at night. I have felt fear for nearly everyone who is close to me, and the millions who are not. We all have been made to be afraid of simply existing as we are.

If you identify as gay, whatever that means for you, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you identify as lesbian, whatever that means for you, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you identify as straight, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you identify as bisexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you identify as pansexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are polysexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are omnisexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are skoliosexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are demisexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are grey asexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are asexual, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are polyamorous, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are intersex, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are transgender MTF, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are transgender FTM, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are agender, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are genderfluid, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are bigender, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are trigender, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are pangender, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are genderqueer, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are demigirl, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are demiboy, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are androgynous, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are queer, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are non-binary, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are questioning, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are homoromantic, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are biromantic, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are panromantic, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you are aromantic, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you a cisgendered, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you have no idea what you are besides you, you are beautiful. You are valid. If you have yet to find a label that feels right, you are beautiful. You are valid.

Do not feel ashamed for who you are. There will always be people who do not understand, who do not agree or believe. There will always be people with more hate in their hearts than love. Do not hate them, nor should you pity them. Show them love, show them understanding, show them patience. Often, those who reject love were starved of it. It is not weak to love, nor is it weak to feel pain. We are all beautiful creatures created by whatever force or natural occurrence you may believe in. Let us be grateful for our lives and live them with passion and kindness.

I do not want to live in fear of myself. I do not want to be made to feel ashamed of who I am. I do not want someone to think it is their place, their right, to dictate who I am. I am Me. I am Pansexual. I am Proud.

[twitcherpated-replies]

Editing to add: I did actually ask in the replies to the post if OP would be interested in a response from someone who ships Desmond with his ancestors, and used to hard-core ship incest. Just want to make clear that while my asking if they wanted another POV was unsolicited, the below essay was not; I wouldn't have written it if they had said no or did not respond. The reply in which I asked has since disappeared, prompting this clarification. I may actually delete this as a reply and repost as an original post, because despite not being wholly unsolicited it does seem to be an unwelcome addition. Regardless, for now, the below remains as it was when I first posted it 6/7/22.

A few clarifications right off the top:

The following is based on my personal experience. While I’ll also theorize on wider trends, mostly this is about why I personally do things.

Second, this isn’t an argument attempting to sway someone to my side. It’s just me putting a human face on someone who does a thing you (general) find reprehensible, and attempting to explain the reasoning behind the reprehensible act.

(Third disclaimer that occurred to me as I was writing: I’m asexual, aromantic, and autistic, and that definitely impacts my worldview with shipping.)

So. Incest Shipping.

Right off the bat, I agree with Trickster that some incest shipping comes from the simple expediency of two characters being in proximity to each other. Examples include Frozen, where sisters Anna and Elsa are the only two female characters given any significant screentime and development, and Supernatural, where the two characters who interact the most are brothers.

The thing I’d disagree with is that in cases of proximity incest shipping, the taboo is part of the appeal.

In my personal experience, when I was big into incest shipping, all of the incest ships I was into were proximity based. I didn’t get into these ships because they were incest, I got into them because--well, frankly, because I read a good fic and thought oh wow, that’s super good and interesting. Or much shallower, saw fanart and said, yeah, those are definitely two hot people being hot, hello.

 So if I wasn’t there for the incest, how did I feel about the incest?

Oh boy. Cliquey, mostly. I felt cliquey about the incest.

There were, undeniably, very good pieces of fanfic that featured incest ships, that I liked reading. And the incest in them was inescapable. One of the hallmarks of a good fic in the genre was that the author actually dealt with the full implications, acknowledged that it was incest and had the characters grapple with that. Well thought out internal emotional conflict makes for good, interesting reading, and that conflict was centered around the very thing that made this kind of fic objectionable to people at large, so there was no ignoring it.

There were also, undeniably, people who just wanted two hot brooding characters to be together, and didn’t actually care about the incest. In this particular fandom, literally half the characters in the franchise were blood-related to each other, so there were plenty of people who thought two characters made a good pairing but didn’t want to deal with the incest thing, so it was brushed aside in favor of uncomplicated “Blood relation doesn’t really matter.” Very similar to when you find a fic on AO3 where “all the characters are aged up.” The author didn’t actually think through and plot out the characters being older, they just wanted to ship the characters without dealing with the nastiness of literal children having sexual thoughts and urges, so they’re ignoring the problematic thing in the simplest, most straightforward way possible.

So above we have what I’ll call Explore incest shippers and Ignore incest shippers. People who want to explore the ramifications of a relationship between these two related characters, and people who want to ignore that these two characters are related, for the sake of shipping them.

Here’s the thing. There are definitely, definitely definitely, people who ship characters who are related to each other because they are related to each other. Honestly the emphasis is because I need to remind myself of that, that incest is a well established kink/trope, that there’s very much evidence in society of people explicitly being into that. I’m going to call those people Taboo incest shippers. That’s a simplification, I don’t know that they like incest shipping just because it’s taboo, but that seems to be the general consensus for why it’s a thing.

To someone who doesn’t like incest shipping, Explore shippers, Ignore shippers, and Taboo shippers probably all look the same. And they are all reviled.

It’s not always obvious. In a fandom where incest shipping is really common, it might feel like, everyone does this awful thing and somehow *I’m* the outcast for thinking it’s awful. But even in fandoms where incest shipping is common, there’s an obvious divide. There’s a sense for incest shippers that wider fandom thinks we’re disgusting and hateworthy for shipping incest.

And so we circle back to: how did I feel about the incest? Cliquey.

I was both an Explore shipper and an Ignore shipper. Honestly, I’d read a few published franchises already that did varying levels of incest shipping in real actual books and didn’t think either option was that weird. Exploring the fucked up implications? Cool. Compartmentalizing the fucked up implications and just enjoying them together? Also cool. The, “this is hot because they’re related” was something I heard and internalized as A Thing but wasn’t actually true for me. But there was a very obvious Us vs Them of incest shippers and people who thought incest shipping was disgusting. There was discourse and essay posts and people yelling about it at each other. What I knew was that I liked these ships, and some people thought liking these ships was awful. So I yelled right on back, about how good the ships were actually, about how exploring the taboo was good for this or that reason, how incest fic was actually literary art, how we liked it because it was fucked up, or how it wasn’t fucked up actually, what’s fucked up is power dynamics and not blood relation and they’re only technically siblings, anyway.

I wrote some eloquent arguments, if I do say so myself. They lacked overarching coherence, because I couldn’t really reconcile how some of what I enjoyed was Ignore shipping, and some of it was a handful of really good authors going “wouldn’t it be fucked up if--” with all the inherent hurt and angst. And I definitely couldn’t reconcile those with “and them being related is hot actually” because it actually wasn’t to me. It was just a thing people said, so I said it too.

So I firmly believe that some of the most vocal pro-incest shippers are reactionary. This is not to say that their beliefs are invalid, that their arguments are bad, or that they don’t actually like incest and just think they do. Only that, based on my personal experience of when and why I was most vocal about incest shipping, it’s part of the in-group vs out-group mentality. People are telling me I’m bad for doing this thing, so I’m gonna loudly defend doing this thing, and also shout about how actually this thing is good and they’re bad for judging me for it (because them judging me makes me feel bad and I don’t like that). The strength with which they argue with you that their ship is okay and good actually has a big heaping helping of, they are sick and tired of being told they’re wrong for shipping it. So they get loud and defensive over something they may not actually be that passionate about, because what they are passionate about is, oh fuck you for judging me/*sad puppy eyes* please stop judging me.

To actually address the specifics of shipping Desmond with his ancestors:

Again, I agree with Trickster entirely that proximity shipping plays a large part. Probably the largest part, in the AC franchise. In the original modern day storyline, there are only a handful of characters with names: Desmond Miles, William Miles, Clay Kaczmarek, Shaun Hastings, Lucy Stillman, Rebecca Crane, Warren Vidic, Daniel Cross. If we rule out characters we know have some level of blood relation to Desmond, that leaves us with Shaun, Lucy, Rebecca, Warren, and Daniel. Two of them are templars actively trying to either kill or imprison Desmond. One is...maybe that, maybe not, definitely dead at Desmond’s hands. That doesn’t rule them out for shipping, just makes things complicated.

So the only “straightforward” ships available to Desmond are Shaun and Rebecca. If someone wants to ship Desmond and doesn’t like those ships, they have to get creative.

Then there’s the problem that the modern day characters aren’t very filled in.

I love Desmond. He is, very genuinely, my favorite character, the one I read fic after fic after fic about. He is also a cardboard cutout with almost no canon characterization and very, very little screentime. Most of the modern day characters have relatively small screentime and minor characterization. But Desmond in particular, by virtue of being the player character, invites the player to identify with him, project onto him, see him as their self avatar in the game.

Am I saying the people who are into Desmond literally see him as themself, as a self-insert? No. I’m saying that the audience is encouraged to identify with him by virtue of him being the player character, by the very nature of player characters.

The primary assassins of each game, Altair, Ezio, Connor, they’re by far the most developed characters in the franchise. We know the most about them, players spend the most time as them, I don’t really have to go super far to explain people like these characters.

So for someone who latched onto Desmond, it’s not even really about, “I think he’d be good with this character” or “There’s obvious chemistry here.” Desmond is pretty blank, we can stick him anywhere. But the most obvious, first things to reach for are the most well known, most popular characters in the franchise--the historical assassins.

I don’t think there’s any Taboo interest in shipping Desmond with his ancestors. I’ve never seen any Explore takes. In my opinion, shipping Desmond with his ancestors is 100% pure Ignore. It doesn’t even *register* as incest for most people reaching for it. Not that they don’t know that Desmond and his ancestors are blood related, but that that just doesn’t fall under the incest taboo for them. Arguments that “no matter how far apart they are, it’s still incest” don’t work when like--like you gotta remember that some people in real life for real marry their second cousins or whatever. Society is comfortable with a certain amount of genetic relation. Which is not me saying that’s right or wrong that society is comfortable with it--society is comfortable with some really fucked up shit. But people of a certain genetic distance being in a relationship is a societal norm.

In conclusion, there isn’t a big reason for Desmond/Ancestor shippers. They’re not shipping it because they’re titillated by the incest taboo, because they’re working through some toxic shit, because they’re looking to explore uneven power dynamics and how that can utterly ruin people. They’re shipping it because they like Desmond, and the Ancestors are the easiest reach to throw Desmond against a more developed character. Them being related only factors in for the brief second it takes to brush that aside as unimportant.

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THEORIES PLEASE

PHEW ok so strap on your cowboy boots and slap on some yoga pants bc this is gonna be a bumpy ride and maybe a stretch

Under the cut is gonna be rambling on fandom discourse nonsense, yaoi/fetishism and incest shipping

So ok yaoi/fujoshi culture was and still is pretty rampant in fandom spaces

And assassin’s creed wasn’t an exception to that starting in 2007

I remember there’s like,, actual yaoi mangas being sold with altaïr and Malik and Robert de Sable or whatever that got law-slammed by Ubisoft bc copyright but my memory is fuzzy on that.

Yaoi is ,, really reductive and fetishistic (it’s a shame it’s an early exposure for people who ARE of those sexualities or identities to go “huh thats an option” but at the same time view themselves as inherently sexualized or “sinful” which is a learning experience I underwent)

It still remains popular among fans who aren’t of those identities and don’t want to actually commit to allyship. On top of that, there’s the homophobic streak of how same sex attraction is “taboo” and people wanna find their cheap thrills through that.

So lots of men get shipped together, irregardless of relations or logic or just to get women out of the picture depending on the ship. “Taboo” comes into play here especially when incest starts getting involved.

Like,, Ive seen popular artists ship Kadar and Malik and Altaïr as a threesome (emphasis on threesome in the sexual sense) while actively scorning Maria for no reason, and ezioleo shippers who pretty much disregard and invalidate every other relationship Ezio has been in (I’m a firm believer in every relationship Ezio had reflecting and building his growth as both an individual and a reciprocal partner)

And when ac3 came into the picture, when there’s not really a “direct” man to ship Ratonhnhaké:ton with (a leo for Ezio, a Malik for altaïr, Shaun for Desmond, etc)… they went to shipping him with Haytham. Because they’re the only men in that ac3 radius (you got wackos shipping him with Washington and Lee too, but while still gross, those are more fringe I think). Bonus since it’s ✨taboo✨!! You got an incompatible, racist, and a blood-father and son relationship in one gross package.

But hey it’s the most popular ac3 ship according to fic sites so … must be the guy+guy thing.

So I think that the “shipping Desmond with his ancestors” thing is another effect of this type of “taboo” yaoi culture, while disregarding the actually LGBTQ+ fans of the material who have way better insight and other options for shipping when it comes to the games (I’d prefer Frenchfrye over Rothfrye by a long shot though the former is completely a fan-thing— at least it doesn’t perpetuate predatory tropes in conception)

Or maybe some people think they’re far removed down the family tree enough to be shippable which,, not.

Or maybe some people are new to the fan base and just thought these characters look cool together— where I’d advise to educate them that they are related and hope they change their mind. If they’re still adamant,, block n move on.

Anyways hope that makes sense!

[singwhenyoucantspeak]

So, I’m seeing a lot of ace discourse on my dash today, which is an odd coincidence since this is a topic i had a very long in depth conversation about yesterday with another friend. While I often reblog posts to signal boost information about asexuality and particular experiences of acephobia, I realized I have never really made a post or spoken up about it myself. With this in mind, I have decided to post a summation of the comments I made to my friend yesterday to let you all know what my thoughts are and why I personally believe we need to fight against the acephobia present in our community and support ace and aro people of all positions on the spectrum. That said, I don’t really feel like going through and editing everything I said yesterday, so I apologize if the following has tone issues or spelling errors etc, I’m just copying and pasting what I said in this conversation. I also want to note here that I myself am not on the ace/aro spectrum, I am lesbian/queer. The question posed to me was basically what is my stance on the discourse, and this is some of my response: 

I'm against gatekeeping. Ace people of all romantic orientations experience oppression from normative society. Inter LGBT+ community prejudice is strong between all sectors. Biphobobia, transphobia, and even lesbophobia are extremely prevalent as is sexism from gay men and yet we HAVE to work together as a community. Are some ace people who are heteroromantic homophobic? Probably but a lot of gay people also do homophobic shit and I've read enough and seen enough in the world to know ace people are oppressed by heteronormative society even if they are heteroromantic, and the same goes for aromantic people who might be heterosexual. But, tbh many many ace people are also aro and a lot of the non ace community wants to pretend like that's not a thing and that since they don't experience any same sex attraction they should get out of the community, which is stupid. There are also hetero trans people so using same sex attraction as the measuring point or definition for belonging in the queer/LGBT+ community doesn't work anyway. So yes it sucks when anyone the queer community does something prejudice or holds prejudice views and there are ace people who do, but they are still not privileged in society and to say they are is to ignore multitudes of proven life experience which is VERY dangerous for all kinds of reasons. 

And we as a community HAVE to form coalition regardless of what inter prejudice we have or else we CANNOT combat the current heteronormative hegemony. We have to respect each other and work together if we want to destroy the system that is oppressing all if us, even if sometimes it sucks. But tbh I've seen wayyyyyyy more shitty acephobic lesbians on here and actually not a single homophobic ace person so yeah that's just one instance of my personal experience but I think gatekeepers exaggerate the problem they bring up and need to look at their own selves and their own ability to listen to others with empathy. Because unfortunately we all rely on society learning to listen to us with empathy. Even with coalition there is not enough of us to change society without straight allies and how can we be so hypocritical as to expect religious heteros to put aside their beliefs and listen to us with empathy and change their views if we cannot do the same within our own community.

Also I think maybe it's important to note that my stance on this issue wasn't made based on Tumblr discourse alone. I actually came to this position while taking the queer theory course in my last year of undergrad and reading a bunch of scholarly work that also discussed this so I'm not just randomly jumping on whatever train my favorite blog is on... If that makes sense. I point that out not to be elitist about academia, but because I think that there is a common occurrence on Tumblr as well that people just pick up whatever stance on an issue that a blog they admire holds, I've in fact even found myself guilty of that, so with something this fraught with conflict I think it is important to self reflect and make sure that's not what I'm doing. 

I've also noticed a pattern in which many acephobes are also transphobes. And I think it comes from this paranoia of thinking that cis straight men are trying to infiltrate our community for some reason... Tbh I don't understand it. It's the idea that trans lesbians are really straight men in disguise and in a similar way ace people are really straights in disguise... It's so problematic and unnecessary.

I've reblogged quite a few pieces of writing on what oppression is like as an ace person if you're interested in reading some of that, I will include links to some resources at the bottom of this post. Because they do experiences a very different kind of marginalization than lesbians or gay men, so I think sometimes it's hard for monosexual L/G people to quite understand.

But I also want to make it clear that being ace is NOT an excuse for doing homophobic shit. So I'm definitely not advocating to not call out homophobia when you see it. Just that we should be addressing it on an individual bases in terms of individual actions, not advocating to exclude an entire group from our community out of fear that they might have prejudice.

i'm also just gonna add a couple things: there is definitely a difficulty in the fact that ace people and sexual queer people want and need very different things and that creates problems when trying to make a space that is safe and inclusive of both. Because queer people do not have the freedom to express their sexuality in heteronormative spaces so they rely on queer spaces to do that but sex repulsed aces can then find those sexualized spaces to be very hostile environments. The problem is that telling queer people not to express their sexuality in every queer space because it is hostile toward ace people IS homophobic. we need both kinds of queer spaces. Because queer people NEED a space to safely express themselves and their sexuality. But ace people and also younger queer people need the non sexualized safe spaces as well so we need BOTH. and people don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around the fact that it doesn't have to be either or. Ace people need to self police and know when they are going into a space that may not be comfortable for them, but at the same time queer people need to recognize the importance of having equal opportunities of safe spaces that are not hypersexualized. it's hard because there are so few opportunities for physicals spaces for us in GENERAL that it seems almost impossible to guarantee we are providing for the both, and the easy out is to just decide to exclude someone. but while that is an easy answer, it's not a good answer.

at the same time, again it gets very very complicated with relationships. some of the reports of acephobia on that lists I have linked I think need more detail because i do not believe a queer person who wants a sex life should be forced to be celibate because their partner comes out as ace. That is a case in which two people find out they want very different things, and while it sucks, a relationship is likely not going to work out. BUT, the way that that is handled is what makes the difference between it ending up as acephobic or not. and tbh I've been thinking a lot about this and I think part of the problem is that asexuality is so unkown. it really needs to be a conversation before the relationship gets too serious, but a lot of ace people do not know they are ace before they've ended up in a serious relationship. so the fact that ace people continue to get broken up with BECAUSE they are ace is a symptom of acephobia, not because their individual partners are necessarily acephobic, but because the system forced them both into that situation in the first place.

tbh I think the solution to is, is actually sex positivity, which needs to be understood as NOT the same thing as the forced/hyper heterosexuality that the media enforces now. I mean as in open conversation about sex and sexuality and sex education. I think part of the problem is that because the dominant christian culture is so weird about sex, there is a lot of argument toward ace people of "Oh you're not ace, you are just repressed and need to learn how to appreciate sex. sex is weird for everyone at first, but you get used to it and learn to love it, you just need to give it a chance." I think it'd be helpful to get rid of that weird ass christian repressive culture because then it is more clear that asexuality is a real thing and that a person's awkwardness toward sex due to a sexually repressive religious upbringing is in fact NOT the same experience as people who do not have sex drive and do not enjoy sex. because a sexually repressed person who feels that way due to christian upbringing can and will learn to become more comfortable with sex (I AM CASE IN POINT)  but an asexual person CANNOT and trying to force them to is very harmful/painful for them.

So yes, it's a shitfest of complicated issues, but that is just my take on it. also aphobia and biphobia sometimes go hand in hand due to this issue: https://singwhenyoucantspeak.tumblr.com/post/157331442151/straight-couples-shouldnt-be-at-pride so just another thing to think about. In the end, I’ve noticed that most gatekeeping heavily relies on heteronormativity which is like the exact thing we are trying to dismantle.

Links to resources: 

this one has a LOT of info, especially if you keep reading down to the bottom with the tons of links https://singwhenyoucantspeak.tumblr.com/post/163230928631/its-all-a-fucking-joke-right

i don't know a lot about the blog posting this but seems like a source of more info https://singwhenyoucantspeak.tumblr.com/post/127991052391/bhryn-asexualthings-asexuality-is-an

https://singwhenyoucantspeak.tumblr.com/post/103997214821/prettyarbitrary-oreides-pungeon-mistress

also this an example of why from the  standpoint of representation etc. ace people need our support https://singwhenyoucantspeak.tumblr.com/post/156705124231/how-is-riverdale-queerbating-and-ace-erasure 

There are probably more posts that I have reblogged with more or better info but this is what I could find since i never tagged any of it. Also, if any ace/aro people have input they want to add or want to discuss anything I said please feel free to sent me an ask, a private message, or just comment on this post.

[thewillowness]

No more apologies.

CW: Frank discussion of mental health. Also. very long and disorganized writing.

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This year has been pretty challenging because of a confluence of several unrelated matters. By large, though, the perfect storm of events that took place since a year ago and now has taken a serious toll on my mental (and physical, to an extent) health. I am slowly recovering from all this as of this writing, but all this spring and summer I was not able to motivate myself to do anything at all. 

In retrospect, the signs were there. I no longer enjoyed engaging in activities that I once loved to do. I was sleeping too much and even then I was exhausted a few hours later. I was, from time to time, bordering on the paranoid, having my anxiety to be debilitating. 

Often I questioned why I am here, what in the hell I am doing, and any prospect for a better future. 

I’ve wasted a large bulk of my lifetime, mostly trying to survive and nothing more. I had a long history of homelessness as an adult. When I was still newly on the street, I dreaded every evening and boredom was unbearable. The only goal in my life was to make another day fly by me as fast as possible so I could survive one more day. That was most of my life during my 30s. 

I have never had a normal childhood and I have never had a normal adult life. That sometimes causes me an inferiority complex, when the kids who graduated from my high school the same year have already built respectable careers, earned multiple postgraduate degrees, and making families and children. 

To add to this, the last three years in the United States have done a lot of damage to my own psyche. Having been exposed to the daily barrage of news about hate crimes, racist terror, institutionalization of extreme homophobia at the highest level of the government, and ethnic cleansing policy from the top, I have internalized so much of racism, classism and homophobia into my subconscious. Frankly, before the rise of Trump, I had not given much thought about discrimination or hate despite my being a member of the marginalized minorities. Now no day will pass without at least thinking about it. 

I know that people around me are barely tolerating me, perhaps out of pity, perhaps out of their own guilt. Nobody has really liked me, and even though from time to time I made an attempt to be “likable,” I’ve given up on that prospect.

I tried to get a date and get laid for years in vain, but now I realize that I was doing all that (1) out of curiosity, and (2) because “everyone else is doing it.” I had internalized the rather heteronormative (and assimilationist) social narrative that relationship is good, romance is good, and everyone’s goal should be marriage and family. Fuck that. 

Now I firmly believe that I am aromantic, and it makes sense because as an autistic I cannot relate to people like normies might. 

People look at me with disgust, and I know I creep them out. They obviously try to be polite and don’t tell me that in my face but I am not fooled. 

For too long I longed to be normal. I wanted to be one of the normies. I wanted to be accepted. I wanted to be taken seriously. 

Being taken seriously meant freedom. It also meant more income. More opportunities. More friends. Maybe more sex. 

But I am starting to see the error in my thinking, because of two recent events.

1. Recently I attended an all-day conference called Build and Monetize. It was a conference geared toward consultants and other entrepreneurs. One thing I learned was that almost everyone thinks they’re not being taken seriously (”impostor syndrome”). The other thing is that I don’t have to market myself to the “normies” but rather I could play on my own difference (now working on this!) -- no more trying in vain to compete.

2. Like you, I have been following Greta Thunberg. It’s hard now to believe that merely a year ago, she organized a “School Strike for the Climate” at the Swedish Parliament and NOBODY showed up (like almost all of the events I had organized so far!). She just stood there alone. In 2019, she’s met Barack Obama, gave a speech in the United Nations, and is a leading voice of the youth climate movement and the global conscience. Her one-person protest has grown to one of the largest mass demonstrations in world history, ranking at par with the Women’s March on Washington (2017) and Occupy Wall Street (2011). I really wished I was her when I was 15. Like Greta, I was already very much politically and socially conscious at that age. Despite the haters (mostly the right-wing, how predictable) and critics feigning compassion, Greta actually was the right person to be doing this.  

“She admitted her passion was partly down to viewing the world in stark terms. The result of her simplistic approach, fuelled by her condition, is that she has presented this issue with more clarity and competence than almost any adult activist or politician in recent years. And there is something rather beautiful in hearing this teenager demonstrate by her actions how society is stronger when it embraces difference – a message that seems so pertinent to our troubled age. Indeed, this aspect of her stance as a now-public figure on the autism spectrum is arguably as important as her bold stand on climate change, given many prevailing attitudes.“ -- The Guardian, April 23, 2019.

I don’t believe like some that autistic people are some new “supergroup” that will save the world. I think we’ve always been here. But I do think our clarity, moral outrage, allergy to bullshit and refusal to go along are some of the many disabled skills that can be part of saving the world. -- Truth Out, Sept. 25, 2019.

A few years ago, Thunberg’s ascent to fame likely would have been framed in the media as that of an inspiring young girl “overcoming” her disability to become the leader of a worldwide movement. But Thunberg herself makes a different, more radical argument: that she became an activist not in spite of her autism but because of it. “I see the world a bit different, from another perspective,” she explained to New Yorker reporter Masha Gessen. “It’s very common that people on the autism spectrum have a special interest. … I can do the same thing for hours.” Thunberg discovered her special interest in climate change when she was just 9 years old, and she couldn’t understand why everyone on the planet wasn’t similarly obsessed with preventing it.A visceral feeling of repulsion toward deceit and hypocrisy is also common among people on the spectrum. As Thunberg told the BBC, “I don’t fall for lies as easily as regular people, I can see through things.” She has a particular contempt for the professional propagandists and apologists who prop up the fossil fuel industry and discourage the development of renewable energy resources, dismissing UK claims about reductions in carbon emissions as the result of “very creative accounting.” -- Vox, Sept. 24, 2019.

In fact, Greta Thunberg may have been the absolute best thing that happened to the autistic community in modern history, when most people’s perception of autism was pretty much shaped by the film Rain Man and propaganda from Autism Speaks. 

At the very least, Greta is my inspiration. (And despite what the haters think, she is beautiful and her face almost reminds me of a classical Greek or Roman sculpture. She could as well be a Greek goddess incarnate.)

Back to the topic, I feel that I’ve wasted good two decades of my life trying to fit in and be “respected” (read: act and speak like normies, according to the white cisheteronormative middle-class standard of “respectability”), and engage in activities that normies might find “respectable.” 

Between apologizing for being “abnormal” and internalizing ableism, classism, racism, sexism, and heterosexism, I had wasted so much of my creativity and energy on this uncompensated labor to make people around me “comfortable” so they might “accept” me. 

Fuck that. I’m done living my life like this, so as to please the normies for a pittance in return (and mostly uncompensated).

They never understand me anyway. They have never walked a tenth of a mile in my shoes at the intersection of multiple oppressions. They may be well-meaning but their privilege means ignorance, self-righteousness, meaningless virtue-signalling circle jerk, and unwillingness to learn (and it’s not my responsibility to “educate” them without compensation, either).  

And yes, history of “mental health��� is history of colonialism and racism, too. What many non-Western and pre-Christian Western cultures called it shamanic gifts or witchcraft, the Christendom called it “hysteria” and “lunacy.” (Note: I have studied cultural anthropology of shamanism as a purely academic subject for two semesters. I do not purport to be a shaman nor it is my intention to appropriate their traditions.)

I am instead going to quadruple down on my “craziness,” and I will no longer apologize for it. (For the most part, “mental health” in our society is just a mechanism to enforce social order and norms -- if there be any question on this, ask why it is always the police that responds to mental health “emergencies” and not EMTs.) I am turning the landmine that it my “craziness” into a goldmine instead. 

And fuck the normies. 

[sapropel]

New thread because the old one was so long! @ungracefulace​

I am back from my spiritual journey and my mental health is in a downward spiral! It is a race against time to see if I can finish this response before my brain shuts down! Who’s! Ready!!!!???

I first want to talk a tiny bit about the DSM thing you brought up. Here’s a link that addresses it from my “ref” tag.

https://goblincourse.tumblr.com/post/162148435657/a-concept

I want to address in your link what this link does not.

Your link talks about how asexuality is NOT in the DSM and is given special mention in a little-used version. At the very worst, this issue is procedurally incompetent, NOT oppressive. Misdiagnosis is not oppressive, it is not malicious. Your concern is unaware or perhaps malicious psychiatrists trying to treat ignorant ace kids for their asexuality, I imagine. I’m not going to say that’s impossible, that some people don’t have an agenda, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that it happens at any significant rate.

“Also having your sexuality seen as an illness is literally systematic oppression. Like, it’s a literal system set up to oppress a minority group.”  You’re also working under the assumption that putting “asexuality” in the DSM (which… it isn’t?) was done SPECIFICALLY to oppress asexuals which is, in fact, a wild assumption. There is no evidence that there is a secret aphobic agenda in the medical community and if you show me any evidence to the contrary I will eat some fucking crow right now.

Another issue is that the issue is made America-specific, but like… I am an American. I understand Americentrism is an issue on Tumblr but for the sake of argument I think it’s best we argue about systems here.

Your second link: If you read closely, I’d make an argument that this person is actually arguing that you shouldn’t repress your sexuality just because you’re religious, NOT that asexuality itself is bad.

Even if this person WERE specifically denigrating asexuality, as I said before, it is one person. Many religious sects hate various groups of people that aren’t actually oppressed. Again, I’m not saying discrimination isn’t possible. As a matter of fact, I can actually imagine that growing up aromantic in the Mormon church could be extremely troubling for some people. I am NOT saying that this is systematic, but there are situations in which you can be disadvantaged. This can be true for most groups of people.

“Religious persecution is systematic oppression.” Not necessarily! For that to be the case, it would need to be widespread, deeply cultural, and part of a group that holds power over the general population. Various religions persecute scientists in the field of climate change and evolutionary biology but these scientists aren’t oppressed or even, in most cases, censored, because these religions no longer have the power to do much about it. Can they be discriminated against? Again, yes.

“By calling asexuals non human, by using our confusion about our sexuality to medicate and [pathologize] us, it is a systematic attack on asexuals. Making asexuals an oppressed group.” This is an iffy one. Again, ask yourself: what scale is this happening on? Is it widespread? Deeply cultural? Part of a power imbalance? I also find the implication that people are PURPOSEFULLY doing this to attack asexuals very interesting, because most of the time I see inclusionists argue that it is in fact the invisibility of ace people that contribute most to their “oppression.” This implies that the medical community knows enough about and hates asexuals enough to devise a destructive conspiracy against them, has enough power to implement it; AND that the general population is so ignorant of asexuality that we oppress them on the front of invisibility and erasure.

“ What qualifies as enough for you? “ This is another tricky one. I’m not the arbiter of oppression or anything. I don’t decide the exact amount. You have to take a qualitative perspective with this kind of thing. So again, a couple questions:

1) Is it widespread? Do you see this happen on a large scale in all pockets of the United States? How many data points do you have? Does this affect ALL aro/ace people REGARDLESS of class, race, gender, religion, etc?

2) Is it deeply cultural? Is it engrained in the media? Entertainment? The professional world? Where would this oppression come from? What are the roots? Are they unique to asexuality/aromanticism or are they byproducts of misogyny, homophobia, and ableism? Is it, in a word, inescapable?

3) Is there a power imbalance? Is there a power dynamic that prevents or hinders socioeconomic growth and mobility for aro/ace people? Are aro/ace people systematically silenced and censored? Are there laws in place against aro/ace people, or are there institutions or policies placed to keep them down?

Okay, next part! This is another tricky part because it requires nuance, critical thinking about, and a balance of 1) distancing oneself from privilege and 2) living authentically without having to censor oneself.

I sincerely doubt that aro/ace people have been discriminated against in the workplace, but I don’t have any sources to say otherwise.

I also SINCERELY doubt anyone has been disowned SIMPLY for not feeling romantic/sexual attraction. I’ve only ever heard of one person claiming that to be the case, and it turns out they were “kicked out” for being a brat to their parents, not because of their identity. I’m looking at you, Max “Rat Hands.”

I’m sure that some people have been raped for being ace. It would not surprise me. Besides the very obvious intersection here with misogyny and toxic masculinity, I mostly just want to point out that this is discrimination and this itself does not constitute oppression.

“Having organizations that try to support you badgered because you don’t count to those people is not a few people being mean.” This is misleading and a bit upsetting to be that it was phrased this way. When groups SPECIFICALLY geared towards helping LGBT people, like the Trevor Project, begin to help non-LGBT people, it’s extremely reductive to say that the outrage is mere “badgering.” What happens in these situations is that resources for LGBT people are diverted to help non-LGBT people, in institutions SPECIFICALLY to help us. When a suicide hotline takes a call from a non-LGBT person, that is one less person who can help an LGBT kid in a crisis. And it’s not just this. Scholarships, events, campaigns ALL have similar resource drains where non-LGBT people will take resources from actual LGBT people, and when we’re a group that’s already struggling and already so deeply marginalized, it’s frustrating.

I want to add that I absolutely think aro/ace people should have institutions and resources geared specifically for them, but I do not think they need to piggyback off of already-existing LGBT entities.

“If someone is attacked for being ace, that is not toxic masculinity or misogyny that is literally aphobia. “ You’re right, that would be anti-ace discrimination. But again, I feel like context is important. Lots of times when someone talks about aggression they received for being aro/ace, the reasons are more likely due to misogyny or toxic masculinity and less often have anything to do with being aro/ace. I’m not saying that it’s impossible, I’m saying it’s important to look at the Gestalt.