#HH Analysis

[jubileemon]

There is a more symbolic reason behind Alastor's and Lucifer's mutual dislike between each other, in biblical lore the stag is meant to represent Christ while Lucifer is represented by the snake.

[mandareeboo]

Vaggie having a human backstory is cool but there is something so captivating about her being *made*. She was crafted for the express purpose of killing sinners... Man I need to find some fics focusing on that

There is a lot of fun that can be done with the idea of Vaggie being born human first (what makes someone hate people so much to commit massacres? What did she go through to hate sinners with such vitriol? What did the world do to her?) but the concept of Exorcists being made for Heaven is just. Mwah. Ten out of ten.

It does, technically, relinquish the blood on Vaggie's hands a bit to make it her entire birth, but that blood is then transferred onto Heaven. Because that implies Heaven crafted Beings! People with hearts and lungs and feelings. And made them to kill.

Someone crafting each and every Exorcist and giving them a sword or a spear or any other close-range weapon and set them on people who (to their knowledge) can't fight back at all. People who couldn't even lay a scratch on them! Telling them that this is just, that this is God's will, that they are doing a kindness to Heaven. The fucked-up-ness of that is intoxicating to me. Crafting someone out of dust and a rib and having them become your loyal and bloody guard dogs.

(Also, it makes Vaggie the THIRD woman created for Adam who just. Left his ass. And I find that irony delicious. Lute really was the only person who could stand his ass.)

[canibalistic-brownie]

Something that I think is (perhaps intentionally on the creators part) misunderstood is the reasoning Lute taking Vaggie’s eye. At that point in time Lute and Adam had no way of knowing that the angels could be killed by angelic steel. They probably knew they could be harmed from training, but they didn’t think they could die. So at no point in Lute’s mind was she planning on killing Vaggie.

Throughout the show, eyes are used symbolically for power, divinity and unknown forces (the root of all evil, whatever force gave Alastor his powers, the elders). Heaven itself uses eyes as a common motif in design and the exorcists even have their own specific eye motif (X O).

The idea of having your eyes open is to be powerful and part of what taking her eye means is to tell her physically that you are weak, it’s to set her apart from the other exorcists. The Red X over her eye is like a scarlet letter saying “I fucked up” and she can never remove it. No longer an exorcist but forever branded by it. Different in a way she always was [one stripe instead of two, (O X) instead of (X O)] and never given an opportunity to forget it.

It was never meant to be a death sentence or a blind rage attack. It was a removal of rank and a red letter to show all that she was weak and unworthy, a step below the rest.

Do I think it was done in rage? Absolutely, but it wasn’t done in blind rage. Lute was calculated and cold the way she was always meant to be.

[bigbeanbear]

Totally! There are actually so many details of their love if you look close enough. Plus, they are in love for 2-3 years as Charlie says clearly that she’s been sharing her life with Vaggie for 3 years in episode 7. They are in a stable healthy relationship that has way past honeymoon phase, so they don’t really need grand gestures all the time to show that they love each other deeply.

Also, they are not a PDA couple, one can say that they prefer more intimate moments in private. For example, Charlie kisses Vaggie’s eye patch in their bedroom, and More Than Anything Reprise happens in an empty hallway. Some couples like to keep very intimate things just for themselves and not for display. Holding hands is enough for them to support and comfort each other while they are in public. This is just their couple dynamics and their way of love language being physical touch.

And their communication is also pretty healthy as a long-term couple.

In episode 3, when Vaggie is frustrated with herself falling Charlie, and goes on to belittle herself of no worth, Charlie immediately assure that she matters and points out what she said about herself is not true; while Vaggie is not in the mood to listen to Charlie’s comfort, Charlie still respects her boundaries and leave her alone as requested. After Vaggie sorts out her feelings and comes back, she apologizes for “being crazy”, but Charlie immediately apologizes for pushing Vaggie out of her comfort zone too, validating Vaggie’s feelings. Charlie also assures Vaggie that they are a team and they can figure things out together.

Then in episode 7, when Charlie is mad about Vaggie hiding big secrets from her, she still cannot stop loving her: she cries on Vaggie’s side of bed because any kind of Vaggie’s presence comforts her; she picks the souvenir for Vaggie as soon as she arrives at Rosie’s out of habit; she cannot do her job pitching her idea well because she’s thinking about Vaggie. Meanwhile, Vaggie did try to talk to Charlie about this secret reveal thing because they communicate to solve problems. Even though Charlie shuts her down, Vaggie still does what Charlie wants her to do and finishes her task well. I suspect that Vaggie’s unique love language is receiving gifts, because as soon as she sees the souvenir brought by Charlie, she knows that Charlie forgives her and still loves her. That single action speaks louder than words, and obviously Charlie knows that Vaggie loves receiving gifts from her, that’s why she did it subconsciously and she doesn’t really need to say “I accept you” out loud.

On the contrary of some critics, I think both chaggie focused episodes, 3 an 7, are actual pretty well written to show much Charlie and Vaggie are a good couple that cares deeply about each other, respect each other’s boundaries, and most importantly, they communicate, both verbally and nonverbally.

In the end, I’d like to mention that both episode 3 and 7 are written by Ariel Ladensohn, a married sapphic writer in real life. She and her wife have been married for years. So that’s why both episodes reflect how long-term couples work and it feels so real in my eyes. I would like to be in a relationship like Charlie and Vaggie’s too (heck, seeing them being so healthy prompts me to seek romantic relationship again). Chaggie is not a cute first crush, but a loving relationship in the long run. To be honest, as someone who consumes a lot wlw content, I think that we need more of this kind of sapphic representation besides the common falling-in-love ones.

In Defense of Charlie x Vaggie:

Hazbin Hotel is far from a perfect show. I quite enjoyed it, of course, but that doesn’t mean that it lacks significant issues (not that I mind, nothing is perfect, and I believe people should be allowed to enjoy flawed media). One such complaint that I see often is that the show’s “main couple,” protagonist Charlie and her girlfriend Vaggie, are “boring,” or that they “lack chemistry.”

Personally, for me, the relationship between these two ended up being one of, if not my favourite part of the show. I’ll admit my bias that as a lesbian myself, I’m always a sucker for any kind of wholesome sapphic relationship that I can get in the media. Even so, though, these two stood out to me particularly well.

And while, yes, I can absolutely see why their dynamic isn’t the most favorable to some people, I don’t think it’s correct to say that the writers “can’t write meaningful relationships” or “don’t understand love” (which are both real comments that I’ve seen whilst I’ve been a part of this fandom).

The first and most blatant criticism that I come across is that the two are rarely affectionate with each other, and while this seems to be the case at first glance, I can’t help but disagree. Though we rarely see the pair actively kissing or engaging in other activities that one would perceive as romantic, it’s clear that they find comfort in each other’s presence, even if it’s subtle.

Throughout season 1, the viewer is shown numerous instances of Charlie especially being comforted by her lover’s touch. For example, while Charlie is on the phone with her father, Lucifer, at the beginning of episode 5, we can observe that she is clearly anxious about the interaction. When it’s clear that Charlie is getting stressed, Vaggie opts to take her hand, and it can be inferred from her expression in the moment that Charlie appreciates this gesture, even if she finds herself preoccupied.

Keen-eyed watchers of the series will notice that the two are frequently seen in contact with each other, or at least in close proximity, implying a love language related to physical touch. However, while frequent, some argue that these little exchanges aren’t enough to sell the idea that the couple are truly involved with each other.

People seem to be disappointed that we don’t get to see any more intimate or outwardly romantic interactions between the pair outside these small snippets or the More than Anything reprise (which in truth was unfortunately very short). But in my personal opinion, I think this dynamic makes them even more compelling. Sure, they may not be the most affectionate of partners while on screen, but I never needed them to be in order to be convinced of their love for each other.

Keep in mind, Charlie and Vaggie have been together for years, they’re out of the honeymoon phase. They’re also both incredibly busy people, especially with the updated, much sooner extermination date introduced in episode 1. As much as it sucks, doing cute stuff with their respective partner probably isn’t their priority.

The beauty of this, though, is that despite it all you can still feel their love. Vaggie would do anything for her girlfriend, and she does. Their relationship is built on such genuine, wholesome trust and support for each other.

You can tell from the way they look at each other, and from the way they talk to each other, that even despite the chaos and despite the time, they are in love. So much so that even a potentially devastating reveal like Vaggie’s true identity is nothing more than a speed bump for them. It’s really quite lovely to see.

That’s why I can excuse the atrociously short run time of their duet, it’s their first moment of peace in months, and possibly their last ever, they don’t have time to do much, and yet they choose to spend this time declaring their love for one another, because they are still the most important things in each other’s lives. It’s so blatantly clear that their love is genuine, in this moment and outside of it.

I personally feel as though, in the world of the show, the relationship between Charlie and Vaggie is very realistic given the situation they’re in, and if I’m being honest, they have the kind of relationship that I myself would love to have.

In short, I understand why some people don’t like this pairing. I can understand liking other things better, and I don’t dislike anyone who does. I can understand wanting more from it, and hey, I’d appreciate it if they sprinkled in a few extra kisses next season just to feed the fans, but that doesn’t mean that what’s there doesn’t already exist. In my opinion, I think Vaggie x Charlie is beautifully written.

There are honestly so many other little things I could bring up about why I love these two so much. You are, of course, welcome to disagree, but I encourage those who do to avoid harassing those who contributed to the writing of Hazbin Hotel, or those who actually do appreciate this aspect of the show.

However, I also insist that people try to look beyond the surface, to see the detail and the beauty of this pairing, as well as other aspects of the show, or other pieces of media.

Because art is beautiful.

[achromaticegoist]

Something I noticed about Adam's Wings (Hazbin Hotel)

They're always folded in like a really specific away, close to the sides rested comfortably under the arms

You can compare it to the other angels and their wings like Lute and the other Seraphim. Adam has his wings out sometimes just like them but as far as I know this is another way to differentiate his character

Very noticeable next to lute, is it like a laid back/strict kind of thing?

It's just cool that there's like nobody talking about this it's like the only thing I could think about whenever he was in a scene lolll

THE CURVE? THE COMPARISON? It can't be becuase his wings are big, maybe that's a part of it but the seraphim have large wings and they posture them just like lute (and all the other angels in the background)

IS HE THE ONLY BIRD MODE? IS THAT IT? IS ADAM JUST PART BIRD

FANFICTION WRITERS GO HAM I NEED CONTENT OF THIS BIRD PLEASE

IS IT FOR AN ANGSTY REASON? IS IT BECAUSE HE SAW BIRDS DOING IT BACK THEN SO HE JUST COPIED THEM?

I'm so attached to wings as you can tell by past fanart I love wings

[moon-andstardust]

I'm so happy that they are portraying both Stolas and Via's struggles. This episode handled the complexity of their relationship so well.

In some regards Via is right, Stolas did lie to her. Stolas was partly right to have done so: a child shouldn't have to carry all of their parents' hurts and grievances.

But he took it too far, he hid too much. So now that it's all starting to come to light Via feels gutted: her father is not who she thought he was. Her image of Stolas is literally being shattered:

They were so close to each other and it turned out that didn't matter at all because not once was he honest with her about anything remotely important in his life*.

She starts doubting everything. What else could he have lied to her about? Was he just pretending to like spending time with her when in truth he was miserable the whole time?

(Note: Blitzø's face is replacing her own on the portrait)

Stolas was such a cornerstone in her life that his percieved betrayal makes her feel like her world is burning down around her. I've been in Via's position and it hurts so so much.

This line in her song feels like payback: I didn't know you, so you will not get to know me either

Stolas felt like he had to hide every ugly truth of his marriage so "that girl could have a semblance of a normal life" but not only did that not work, it further complicated matters with Via, who now thinks she can't trust her father anymore.

The other problem is that Via still doesn't have the full picture! She deserves to know dammit! That's her family! Due this she can only draw her own flawed conclusions which is just painful to watch.

[jubileemon]

In most forms of media, the whole "my girlfriend/boyfriend has been keeping a secret and I'm angry" situation has the angered lover making "I don't think we should be together" or "we should break up if I can't trust you" statements.

Vaggie didn't even attempt to justify her secrecy to Charlie. In most situations like this in media, when a character would keep a big secret from their significant other, the secret keeper attempts to rationalize their deceit. However, Vaggie doesn't do that, or she might've done when they came home, but we didn't see it anyway. Either way, Vaggie understands the pain she caused Charlie and doesn't attempt to make an excuse for herself.

In this case, Charlie's expressing a very justified hurt that Vaggie couldn't trust her when Charlie knows that she has proven herself to be incredibly understanding and open as a partner, but at no point does she say that she's lost trust in Vaggie. And while Charlie gave Vaggie a cold stare earlier, she never made a comment about planning or wanting to break up with her. Even when she felt lied to, Charlie never thought of ending her romance with Vaggie. She still sends Vaggie to get them help from Carmilla, showing that in spite of everything, Vaggie will always be someone that Charlie trusts.

[bigbeanbear]

Exactly, I think the low vs high ranges are deliberately differentiated in these songs, to show the two sides of Vaggie: the one with a tough shell, and the one with a soft heart. I actually think it’s a smart choice.

ik a lot of people are upset about how vaggie's speaking and singing voices are so different but what if. what if. what if vaggie's singing voice is high pitched and angelic because that's her true nature? because she's actually an angel? singing is a form of self expression after all, and vaggie's songs are when she's at her most vulnerable, when she doesn't have her walls and barriers up.

I also think that her voice adjusts depending on the situation? like when vaggie sings whatever it takes, she sings in a higher pitch because she's singing about protecting the love of her life, charlie. but then in songs like happy day in hell, or you didn't know, where she admittedly only has minimal lines, her voice is a lot deeper.

like think about you didn't know specifically. "careful charlie, keep a cool head" has a deeper tone because vaggie is literally telling charlie to hide away her emotions, her authentic self, and instead present a calm and collected front. we see this again in "don't, adam, please" where vaggie is literally trying to hide her past, and her angelic heritage, begging adam to not expose her.

but then more than anything reprise?? where she's singing her gay little heart out to charlie?? where she's telling charlie she's so in love with her, and that she loves her more than anything?? that's when vaggie's voice is high again, because she isn't hiding anything this time, her walls are down and she's being her authentic self. she's in love with charlie fricking morningstar and she's not afraid to show it.

[mandareeboo]

I gotta say they made a great plot point in Carmine killing the angel to protect her daughters. It makes it so the angels have no recourse- what else is purer than a mother caring for her children?- and inspires confidence in hell's kindness over heaven's.

[phoenixlionme]

Charlie's Hatred towards Lute

Look at the difference between these three shots - The first one has Charlie is her normal form sweetly holding hands with Vaggie in a darkly comedic moment before Adam makes his obnoxious rant; the second has Adam in the middle of said rant with everyone looking upon in varying levels of disgust, with Charlie's being the only one looking like she, to an extent, pities him but still in a funny way; and the very bottom takes a more serious tone with Charlie in her more demonic form and her arm now protectively holding Vaggie closer while they both glare daggers at the now injured, one-armed Lute. Why such a stark difference?

With Adam, Charlie was just fighting him (possibly going for the kill in the heat of the moment) but stops Lucifer from killing him. And in the middle picture, while not defending him, still gives him a look of pity (as I stated); plus, she could've stayed in her demon mode given how he was still being antagonistic and threatening but doesn't. However, when confronted by Lute, the inverse nearly happens - Charlie is in her demon mode despite Lute no longer being a threaten; Charlie is protectively holding onto Vaggie by the shoulders while glaring daggers (with her girlfriend) at Lute; her line of, "It's over", is nothing but cold words hiding an enormous amount of anger; in contrast to her look of pity to Adam, Charlie has nothing but pure hatred on her face. Her whole stance screams, "You are VERY lucky I'm letting you live after what you did my girlfriend" or something along those lines.

Now, we didn't see or hear Vaggie tell Charlie about the reasons behind her fall, but given Charlie's look, you can tell she knows what Lute did. And then the crazy bitch tried to kill her girlfriend again. Vaggie has been Charlie's biggest and most loyal supporter as well as a caring, devoted girlfriend; so to learn how she was viciously cast out most likely enraged her. And given that Lute is going to be a bigger antagonist in S2, Charlie's anger and hatred will be brought forth. And I can't wait.

[shadebloopnik]

We all noticed how Alastor only ever seems to sing reprises, or how he only ever interrupts songs by others. It fits his personality and character so damn much its amazing.

He sung a reprise of Charlie's song in the pilot to get into her good graces. He interrupted Vox and Lucifer's solos, using their own melody to against them to assert dominance and make the song his own. He takes and steals and bends himself to fit any situation.

But he WASNT DOING that in the finale

His melody was vastly different from the others. It didn't fit in the song.

Even the Vees' verse somewhat fit in with the theme, playing on the same beat, but not Alastor's. He changed the whole tune, grabbed at the lively beat and forced it down.

He was alone. There was no audience to play for. No need to pretend.

For the first time, we got ALASTOR'S song. No masks. No performances for anyone else. He didn't play off others, no. This is HIS melody, and no one else's.

I saw a lot of people complain how his part didn't fit into the song and YES THAT'S THE POINT. HE DOESN'T FIT IN. He only sings to the song's tune when he was back with the others. Alone, he never sung to the same beat. We can see now, clear as day how he never was on the same wavelength as the others. He doesn't associate himself with the main cast, nor with the villainous vees. He works alone, he doesn't need a harmony from companions, he refuses to.

We're finally starting to see him.

[directorhachi]

Yeah, their relationship reads alot as "very complicated" to me. Don't get me wrong, it leans VERY hard towards negative, but at the same time...

While Husk was very annoyed to see Alastor back, he also joined in hugging him?? And it didn't look like he was being forced or anything, and it wasn't like everyone was hugging him???

I think that like...while Husk definitely dislikes Al and how he's treated, he might also be the person in hell who understands him the most. And I imagine that infuriates Al....and yet, I think fundamentally everyone wants to be understood by someone.

As for why Alastor kept Husk alive, I imagine that at least at the outset, it was a thing of like...having a former overlord to control, to show off how powerful Alastor truly is. Also, given it's heavily implied that Husk would cheat in order to win gambling sessions for souls, it could be that Al owning his soul is Al's way of like...punishing him? But the problem comes in that Husk has clearly changed and improved as a person and Alastor is still treating him like that ruthless overlord who needs to be put in his place.

I didn't intend for this to get so rambly, their relationship FASCINATES ME and I want to see more f;ljkfdsjakl;sdaflkj;sfad

Okay, but if Husk was an overlord...

Why didn't Alastor kill him?

Like Alastor made a name for himself by picking off overlords and broadcasting their screams according to Mimzi right? So how come Husk wasn't one of them?

Husk feels "comfortable" enough to get mouthy with Alastor without any backlash (except for that one time).

So what makes him so special, to avoid death by radio?

[bat-anon]

“Together, they wished to share the magic of free will with humanity offering the fruit of knowledge to Adam’s new bride, Eve, who gladly accepted. But this gift came with a curse, for this single act of disobedience, evil finally found its way into Earth; with it, a new realm of darkness and sin…. As punishment for their reckless act, Heaven cast Lucifer and his lover into the dark pit he had created, never allowing him to see the good that came from humanity, only the cruel and the wicked.”

“Our people, Charlie, are awful! They got gifted free will and look what they did with it! Everything’s terrible!”

“You see? This is exactly what I’m talking about, Charlie. You build something nice, you invite people in and offer them everything and they just bring violence and chaos to your doorstep. It doesn’t matter how well-intentioned you are, they’re always gonna disappoint you!”

Oh.

Lucifer is upset about the sinners because he blames himself. He gave them free will with Lilith because they loved humanity, and it created sin and Hell. He’s only ever seen the bad his actions had caused. He stuck his neck out for the humans and defended them to Heaven and now all he sees is them betraying him by proving Heaven right.

[drama-glob]

I love getting to see Zestial and Carmilla Carmine appear in the third episode of "Hazbin Hotel," but aside from their designs, I just treasure the friendship (or perhaps more ;) ) that these two have. ^_^ I find the duality of it sweet that someone like Zestial, who Sinners were actively trying to run away from and set themselves on fire at the mere sight of him as well as being someone who revels in their screams, is able to be observant and show genuine care when those close to him seem distressed. ^_^<3<3<3 He's scary and clearly has done many evil things, but he's more than just that. ;)

The slight smile on Carmilla's face when she sees Zestial as well as her daughter having a more obvious one at his arrival certainly shows that he's been kind to Carmilla and her family over the many years. Carmilla definitely cares for Zestial too with her not standing for Velvette's disrespect as well as her looking at him during her song "Whatever It Takes," to which Zestial seems to be processing what she's saying/show concern since he likely doesn't want her to take on such a burden or see her hurt either. ^_^<3<3<3

*I totally ship them by the way in case that wasn't obvious. ;) ^_^ <3<3<3 I'm mainly worried that either Carmilla or Zestial will die soon because of their connection and Carmilla's slight against Heaven with killing the angel. ;_; ;_; ;_; Both deaths would have significant consequences with power vacuums, but I'd mainly just be sad because one of them is dead. ;_; ;_; ;_;

[phddyke]

Currently there’s a lot of discussion going on about whether or not Alastor was sincere in saying Charlie was like a daughter to him, and also why he disliked Lucifer—since many people pointed out his eye twitched and he’s annoyed from the moment he showed up, NOT from the moment Lucifer said he hadn’t heard of him or expressed surprise about the bar he (Alastor) made.

I see there are theories floating around about him disliking Lucifer because of Lilith, and while that is certainly possible, I see people are also discussing the possibility that Alastor had an abusive father while he was alive, as it would explain a lot of his behavior.

If that’s the case, then that might have been where his immediate suspicion and dislike of Lucifer came from. He knows that Lucifer is somewhat of a “dead-beat Dad” (although we all now know that’s because of his depression and he does love his daughter a lot), so when he hears that he’s coming to the hotel, he’s annoyed about that. What, he magically wants to be a part of Charlie’s life now? He’s partially projecting about his own issues with his father, but he’s also thinking, “Well, Charlie deserves better than that. I’ll remind her that I’m here as a surrogate father figure and she has her own found family. She doesn’t have to deal with this sub-par treatment from her Dad even if he is Lucifer. In fact, I’ll step up to act as her father just like I wish someone had done for me.” He may also be annoyed that Lucifer can come waltzing in after doing nothing when he, as he pointed out, has been here since Day 1—and yet it’s Lucifer who they all have to work to impress, who still gets the recognition of “Dad.” The lyric “Sadly there are times the birth parent is a dud” also makes me think he’s speaking from his own experience, but it can’t be his Mom because Vivzie said he’s a mama’s boy (and you can kinda tell that from the pilot).

Also explains why he didn’t interfere during their “More Than Anything” song. People theorized he was trying to goad Lucifer into helping Charlie, and while that may be true, if this has something to do with his own father issues, then seeing Lucifer’s genuine love, care, and support for Charlie made him happy. He doesn’t need to interfere because he sees that Lucifer is trying and he’s treating her well, and that’s all he wants. It’s not like his father at all.

[bigbeanbear]

There are people who call freaking chaggie toxic??? Jeez, I wonder which sapphic canon couple haven’t been called “toxic”

i feel like it's pretty safe to assume the people who say Chaggie is toxic because of Vaggie's attachment to Charlie haven't really been deeply in love before, especially not in a situation where their partner literally saved their life.

Sure a dynamic like that could go sour if you become too overbearing/demanding or controlling out of fear of losing them, but Vaggie is very obviously not that?

I can't exactly put the feeling into words, it's sort of a situation you have to experience in order to understand. But when you owe someone your life, especially when it feels that person is also your soulmate, of course you dedicate the rest of it to making them happy and giving unyielding support. Of course you feel like you owe them the world, because they're your whole world and the only reason you're even still here.

Yes it can create a power imbalance and your partner could take advantage of the obsessive loyalty that level of dependency breeds, but Charlie chooses not to because shes not abusive and she respects and loves vaggie.

Charlie recognizes that Vaggie has self worth issues and places her value in how useful she is to her, and instead of making it into a toxic situation charlie takes the time to reassure vaggie that she doesn't need to be 'proving' herself and that she is loved and valued as she is.