#Grima thoughts

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

Okay here I am again because the Grima brainrot is particularly intense rn and I just saw a post talking about.

Grima but as a woman. Like genderbend. Nothing changes, same looks, same personality, same behaviour, same ambiguous feelings for Eowyn. (I’d smash.)

I think it’s actually interesting considering that Grima’s flaws in the movies/books are hinted also to be rooted from his “unmanliness” (as Tolkien presents a lot of characters with honour and values considered “male”.)

But I think that even if he were to be a woman, there is a great deal of traits Grima wouldn’t possess to be considered conventionally “feminine” by Tolkien’s and many’s standards. (Such as beauty for example).

So yeah, it just occurred to me and now I’ve been thinking about this since 3am. This is the reason why I’m pansexual. We don’t care about gender. We care about silly evil pookies okay.

As always have a great day/night ! ^^

Yesssss!

Grima & Gender is a super interesting thing that I think about all the time. I love thinking about him and manliness, femininity, secret third and fourth options etc.

I know I reblogged the ask/reply that I had about Grima on Gender and Magic, so you have the gist of most of my thoughts as it relates to Grima performing gender (or not, as the case may be) within the context of masculinity.

But Grima straight up as a woman would be very interesting. Particularly because Rohan is quite gendered when it comes to the wielding of power - and quite binary in who wields what power.

(E.g., when Theoden departs Edoras to fight Saruman, he despairs over leaving the city leaderless because Eomer won't stay behind. It doesn't occur to him that Eowyn is even an option until Hama suggests it.)

Therefore, Grima being in a position of power that is traditionally masculine would be very interesting. Indeed, her entire performance of gender would likely be impacted by the uniqueness of her position. Queens, historically, were more passive in Rohan than in other countries so it's not like she would have someone to model herself on. Nor would there be a model for other people on how to receive and perceive Grima.

(Morwen, maaaaaybe, but honestly her epithet of Steelsheen is more about her appearance than anything else. Though perhaps her personality could be inferred from it... But truly, we only know her in the context of being wife and mother.)

Given the absence of models, would Grima into the more masculine aspects of how people would be reading her? Would she do the whole performance of "I may have the body of a woman but I've the head and heart of a man"? Or would she hyper-perform the femininity song and dance as a way to balance it out/make her more palatable to some?

Aside from the occupying a masculine position of power within the context of Rohan's society, Grima's other personality and physical traits would absolutely count against her being seen as appropriately feminine.

Good qualities for a Rohirrim woman to have is height, slenderness, fairness of face, and youthfulness. Grima's tall...and that's all she's got going for her.

Grima is also neither high-hearted nor noble in bearing let alone in birth (because nobility of birth is very important to one's perceived Goodness and Worth in Tolkien's world).

Grima is a sneak, a liar, a thief, and power hungry. Grima would be, fundamentally, a Woman Who Wants Something. And what she wants are things women shouldn't want.

Wanting Things in general, for both men and women, is a dangerous game to play in Middle Earth and the texts punish many of the people who do any major "unacceptable" desiring (or creating) of things outside their purview.

Grima's obvious foil, Eowyn, is a prime example. Eowyn wants to be a warrior, she wants to be queen, she wants to be part of the Gondor noble family (and assume the power and privilege that comes with that), she wants to be seen and heard and to have an impact on the fate of the world.

Some of her wanting was out of a selfless desire to save her home and her people, but a lot was also just her having dreams and desires.

Eowyn may have been named as Shieldmaiden of Rohan but it is evident that this was meant as an honorific that wasn't meant to be actually acted upon. Save, of course, in the gravest/most dire circumstances when all is lost and only women remain to defend the land because the men are dead. This is, indeed, the gist of the conversation she has with Aragorn and you can see her resentment and anger about what her expected role is to be compared to that of her brother and the other men in her life.

I think the fact that Eowyn reflects, in many ways, the ideal of womanhood is what saves her from being punished too hard. Eowyn is tall, fair, slender, young, high-hearted, daughter of kings, and has selfless and noble motives (alongside the more human ones).

She is allowed her transgression. She gets her great moment of battle against the witch-king. She gets to make her mark, to save people, to change history.

But, she also receives a bit of a personality transplant as a result of it. She gets to be a wife - but not a queen. She gets to be a mother who heals people. She gets to be a Proper Noble Woman and live, once again, in a gilded cage. The very thing she was so furious about initially.

I know there is the idea that she is healed and she has overcome her anger and has changed - but it still feels like the text punished her and robbed her. Of course, a huge part of the problem is that Eowyn is the only women we spend any real time with - if we had more women with diverse journeys and endings, it would be different.

It's subconscious to a certain degree, I think, also heavily informed by Tolkien's Catholicism alongside the culture of the time. The importance of the Marian archetype of womanhood etc. And we know Tolkien loved Eowyn's character and thought about her a lot, wanted to write a good story for her, but some of that stuff sneaks in regardless.

But all of this to say - if that is Eowyn's ending...what would happen to Grima? One who would be committing greater transgressions against gender performance let alone the whole Light Soupçon of Treason.

Because aside from wanting material wealth and power, we know that Grima potentially desires Eowyn. In the movie it's explicit but the books are more ambiguous. We are told, via Gandalf, that Eomer was concerned about Grima ogling his sister and threatened to kill him over it. Crucially, we never hear from Grima about this specific item and we certainly never hear from Eowyn.

Indeed, Gandalf's line to Eomer about how his sister is "safe now" says far more about Eomer's fears and concerns than it does about the reality of the situation. We know in ROTK that Eomer didn't know his sister's heart or mind - he didn't know she was unhappy with her position in the household and broader society, he didn't know she wa so angry and resentful, he didn't know she was in emotional pain, he didn't know what she wanted, he didn't know jack. Therefore can we think him reliable when it comes to being a fountain of knowledge about his sister's desires?

I mean...considering no one was paying much attention to her, and when they did they were reading their own things onto her (coughEomercough), perhaps Eowyn liked having Grima pay attention to her? Like, who knows. Someone who may have seen her and may have known what her fears and desires were might have been novel/nice (before she realized he's selling everyone out for a corn chip). Heck, Gandalf implies that Grima had a pretty good handle on Eowyn's innermost dreams and wishes, so take that as you will.

(I now have this image in my head of Eowyn and Grima getting wine drunk out back of Meduseld and bitching about people.)

All pure idle speculation for the sake of pot-stirring. Anyway, I keep getting distracted.

Grima as a woman feeling lust, though - that would be another strike against her. Honourable love and the implied desire that might exist because of it is fine. But in the text overt desire of a clearly sexual nature is presented in a mostly negative light. Let alone, in this speculation, Grima is lusting after another woman! That's even more unnatural and contrary! What a freak /sarcasm.

Then there's the cowardice - which is shown as a negative no matter who is displaying it. Though, I think of all the aspects of Grima, this is the one that would get more of a pass as a woman than as a man.

So yeah - given that Grima's entire personality is one that is contrary to what is modeled as Good Femininity it would be very interesting to see how it played out over the course of the text.

Everything from the banishment, which was predicated on Grima being expected to do battle alongside Theoden in order to prove that he is still loyal - what test of loyalty would Grima as a woman be expected to perform and then fail because she's too chickenshit?

The relationship with Saruman would be construed in a different way, also the hold Grima had over Theoden - that would take on different implications. And those implications would also change how Theoden is perceived, too, which is interesting.

That Theoden is leaning on a woman for support in ruling would make him seem even weaker and more foolish. It would be so interesting to see it unfold!

Then there's the rivalry with Gandalf - the positioning of them as two sides of the Odinnic coin.

Also the being tortured and tormented by Saruman after Helm's Deep. Not to mention the Scouring of the Shire and Grima's ultimate end. If Grima is a woman, in this, I think Tolkien would have had her ending be different.

----

Alright, I've banged on for way, way too long about this and went no where in particular, and all has been said before in different ways so I'm not landing on anything new or insightful.

Just wittering...I love wittering about Grima so thank you for giving me the opportunity to lol

<3 <3

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

Ah that’s because of a few thing! None of which is Saruman—at least in the books.

—he would have arrived to Edoras as Grima son of Galmod, which is his actual name.

—Wormtongue, or wyrmtunga, as it would be in Anglo-Saxon-adjacent world and Rohirrim is based on Anglo-Saxon English and wyrm, of course means dragon (see how it’s used in the Hobbit interchangeably with the word dragon to refer to Smaug). It’s the “translation” of his Rohirrim kenning to Westron that gives us the Wormtongue which of course, is a nice touch on the slimey side of him. But likely when it was first bestowed on him it would have been closer to “dragon tongue” in meaning due to his evident penchant for word play and riddling etc (the battle of wits with Gandalf in the books captures this much better than the film)

—essentially it went from “oh your good at word play and riddles, like a dragon” to “you’re untrustworthy and sly and slithery like a dragon” THEN in Westron it gets the “you’re a gross thing on the ground” meaning

So it’s not like he rocked up to Edoras as Grima Untrustworthy McUntrustworhiness as his name. It was just Grima son of Galmod.

—books have Gandalf imply that Grima’s been around court for a good amount of time and once was loyal to Theoden and Rohan and did his job (whatever it is) well and reliably. It’s only in the last so-many years that he switched sides

—which no one expected! So really it’s just Eomer and Eowyn and Theodred who are like “he’s being Suspicious” and half of it for Eowyn and Eomer was also Grima having the hots for Eowyn. Anyway, Grima was trusted! He was a member of the king’s household! There was no reason for the average person in court to suspect him

—as for bringing charges against him public, there would still need to be evidence and Tolkien states in the books that Grima was damn good at being a sneaky spy so there was nothing solid to bring forward as proof

—————

Anyway! That’s the very abbreviated version since I’m out and on my phone, but yeah. Not as straightforward as it may seem!

I love the trope of "oh look, it's the king's most trusted advisor." And then it's just the least trustworthy person imaginable. Like in LOTR, you've got Grima Wormtongue slithering around Theoden's court giving bad advice and telling lies uninhibited until Gandalf and the gang show up. His name is Grima Wormtongue. Forget becoming an advisor, why'd they even let this guy in? How'd he get promoted to a position like that? Who looks at a devious little man with a name like that and immediately goes "ah yes, he seems like a trustworthy advisor" Saruman's magical influence doing heavy lifting here.

[evostrashbin]

another quick warmup doodle meme redraw thingy that was funny to me

[pixlatedvampire]

I havent finished anything in a bit so please enjoy my favorite Grima doodles lmao 💗🥰

[sashayed]

it's not that i'm unsuited to ALL jobs. i just think we need to bring back the professions i could thrive in. grima wormtongue. "demimondaine." hallucinating cave priestess. etc

[samthepotterhead]

am I dumb or does beorn not look like a bear but more like a warg? and in man form he looks like a half transformed werewolf (like fenrir greyback in the movies).

sometimes I can't tell fili and thorin apart. I mean, they are related!

I only just remembered the spiders from the forbidden forest. another parallel between hp and lotr, but I totally glossed over that while reading the hobbit.

I don't know if I've said this before, but martin freeman is so perfect for this role. this inherit englishness and bourgeois vibe. and his body language and facial expressions!

elvish (I don't know which dialect/branch this is ok) sounds not so ethereal when spoken. I mean it was based on finnish, so…

that kili is considered tall for a dwarf works well with the fan theory/headcanon that he isn't fully dwarf.

was the silvan elf king featured this much in the book? and was he mentioned in thorin's back story at all? I honestly recall so little of the hobbit already... but again if it wasn't mentioned, it makes a lot of sense in the movie.

I think tauriel is a bit too human acting for an elf, they are usually so mysterious (legolas and the king are doing that). ok the guards were also in the book and not so elvish. maybe it's just a nobility thing.

I like the romance tbh. a pity they created the only female elf in the movie (apart from galadriel) for that, but better than zero like in the hobbit...

I always wonder how there are not a trillion elves since they can procreate but are basically immortal? like even if they go to the grey havens every once in a while, I'm sure many stay on?

is that balin's tomb? where is gandalf here? I'm a bit confused. but in general, the tie-in with the lotr plot works so well in this one.

ok the plot is quite significantly deviating from the book now. I'm not against it bc the lake town plot was super info-dumpy in the hobbit, but I also don't really need another basic male hero... but stephen fry I approve of! the counsellor gives off a very wormtonguey vibe. was this intentional? but man that was a lot of grossness in a few minutes.

the elves have exactly the weird springly step I imagined, I love the attention to detail :)

ok the secret door looks not so secret in this… but these sets are so intricate, I can't say it enough!

pretty sure the dwarf ring plot was not in the hobbit. will it be in lotr?

smaug, guarding a plot-wise important item is exactly like the dragon in gringotts in dh. though that is of course also originally from norse mythology. at any rate, I didn't remember that smaug could talk? and bilbo has learned not to tell a random being his full name and species. good job, bilbo.

man this movie is long… feels much longer than the first one. they are stalling with these dragon scenes. the liquid gold and statue part was cool, but unneccessary.

they really kept the women-belong-to-the.house theme going here :/ only bard's son is allowed to run around town. and how come no one else in lake town saw the orcs on the roofs?

saving kili's life has become a full time job for tauriel. in general, the kili/tauriel scenes are cute, but adding nothing to the pregression of the plot at this point. but now it seems they've know each other before? maybe I'm misinterpreting.

oh my god, it's ed sheeran. why is he in every fantasy thing? (ok, only in got as well, that I know of, but still - weird that it happend twice right? etc.) wait, I actually know this song, this was in the charts. I never knew this was from the hobbit! it honestly sounds like an ai generated song though, with the words "fire", "mountain" and "desolation" put in as a prompt...

too stunned by this revelation to properly rate the movie now, but I guess I liked as a whole, it was only a bit too long and not as well plotted as the first one.

[spinnenpfote6]

It took me so long to realize that Grima Wormtongue doesn't have eyebrows

Like the frickin' Leto Joker

That's literally the worst thing about him

It bothers me so much now

[felikatze]

Why does Grima have two bodies?

okay @ro-botany brought up the question and i think i have an answer.

The hand-wavey explanation is obviously "reincarnation bullshit" but we can get more precise than that. You're gonna have to suppose reincarnation theory with me cuz this doesn't work for possession theory i think but if you know me that's a given anyway.

Regardless. Part of dawn's spectacular reincarnation theory argument is a noted oddity in how future Robin was able to claim the Dragon's Table. bcuz, didn't they already do that in their own timeline? If the table contains Grima's soul, this Robin already has it. If they take what's sealed in the table now, they'd have two of those!

Unless, of course, everything inside the table isn't alive. Then they could claim it as often as they please! So what's in there? Grima's power?

Well, I say, Grima's corpse.

After all, we have precedent for dragons' bodies being sealed inside there, alive or not.

And, the future Robin has a demonstrated proficiency in controlling dead bodies.

If we suppose that the Grima in the table is dead, their soul went on to be reborn as Robin, we run into another fact. Robin isn't a manakete.

No matter if they have a dragon's soul or not, they are physically incapable of transforming. They are human, through and through. Yes, they have "Grima's blood" - in the exact same way Chrom has Naga's. It's likely a blood pact made with some human allied with Grima back during the Schism, same as any other draconic blood pacts throughout the series.

And, listen, Rogrima is such an overdramatic bastard, are they really gonna settle for bringing ruin to the world with a goddamn tome? No.

Yeah it's all assumptions, but it's not contradicting anything per canon, right, and how else do we have fun.

So, combining what I've laid out - everything sealed in the Dragon's Table is likely dead. Future Robin can take control of dead bodies.

Ergo, future Robin took control of their own past dead body, hence two of them.

TLDR: It's just one fuck-off huge Risen made of their own corpse that they now control like an additional limb.

Which would also explain why Chrom & co. only have to take out future Robin's human form. That's where the actual heart is, and without them, the dragon will just be a regular gigantic corpse again. Or even just crumble to dust (which is why we probably don't have one giant clean up action... thank goodness Grima was courteous enough to hold the final battle over the ocean.)

[the-priestess-of-dawn]

Been thinking about a postgame scenario that goes in a direction I don't think canon would ever take in a million years, but like... I think it could be really compelling...

And that's the idea of Chrom becoming Plegia's king after Grima's defeat. And specifically giving up his claim to Ylisse's throne to do it (leaving it to Lucina when she's old enough).

Because here's the thing... The game ends with Grima's defeat/Robin's return in the sacrifice ending. It doesn't address what happens to Plegia at all, and while I personally maintain that Aversa is the most qualified candidate to rule, her canon ending provides that she goes back to the village she was born in. So, fine. Let's give her that.

But SOMEONE has to do SOMETHING because realistically, Plegia is in dire straits. Validar, the king and the leader of the Grimleal, is dead. He gave, like, ALL of Plegia's resources to the Ylissean League (well, okay, we don't know how much, if any, he left in reserve, but... He really needed Walhart gone and it's not like he had any reason to think that anyone would need resources once Grima was running around, so... chances are good there's little to nothing left in the wake of the averted apocalypse). And the population has been utterly devastated, because not only did people (exactly how many is unclear, but presumably it took more than just a couple) have to sacrifice themselves to renew the fell dragon's power, but Grima was also spawning Grimleal onto their back at the final battle. Their losses are so immense...

So first of all, Chrom is definitely responsible for taking all their resources and setting half of them on fire (Now to be fair, Flavia and Basilio are also responsible, but... Idk, I kinda feel like they'd bicker with each other over who has to do the crappy parts of the job and then agree that they should just ask Chrom if he can do it. Like "Haha, if you didn't want to deal with thieves ambushing the Longfort to steal construction supplies, you shouldn't have gone and beaten me at the last tournament!" "Oh, shut up. Let's see if Chrom can send his thief friend over to talk these guys down. Or kill them, whichever." I mean, Chrom is always going to be their guy who knows a guy.) There's just no way Chrom would abandon the surviving Plegians who need help anyway, but especially not when he knows the war with Valm would've ended before it could begin without them.

Of course, there's the historical hostility between Ylisse and Plegia to consider, but... If anyone's protesting, it's probably the Ylisseans. Because the survivng Plegians, uh... probably were never Grima's most devoted followers in the first place (if you really wanted to give Grima your life, you'd rush to the front of the line at the Dragon's Table, right?) and even if they used to consider themselves true Grimleal, the religion's leadership is destroyed, and—for the purpose of this scenario, I'm considering it post-sacrifice ending—the fell dragon is gone and not coming back. These people narrowly avoided becoming Grima's breakfast or Grima's meat shields. They all almost certainly know someone who wasn't as lucky. And the one who saved them... Well, it was Chrom, wasn't it? Because he believed in humanity enough to challenge the concept of fate, a fate that the people of Plegia were surely taught was inescapable. Despite their history with Ylisse, it's hardly unreasonable for them to see Chrom as a savior to them specifically. The second coming of the Hero-King who ought for the lives of all humans, really.

And yeah, I'm going here... Chrom is Marth's descendant. Marth was Altean. Former Altea is is modern Plegia, so technically, the people can argue that he's actually theirs.

Doesn't it sort of make sense, even? Plegia is ruined, the god to whom the theocracy was devoted killed. "What we need is to restore the glory of ancient Altea!" And who better to help them than Chrom, Marth's successor in blood and in spirit?

But Chrom would frown and say no. Of course he's going to help them restore their country to prosperity—or at least to independent, peaceful functioning. But king? Sheesh, that's going too far. Come on guys, you don't really want that. Besides, he's already ruling Ylisse...

Except, he's not ruling it as Exalt. At least, not at first he's not. He forswore the title when he started his rule and in canon he is only official welcomed as Exalt after Grima's defeat. But what if he just... continued to not accept it. It's not like he ever wanted to be Exalt. He only has the right to rule because Emmeryn died—because he failed to protect her. It has nothing to do with any of his successes.

But if the Plegians made him their king, then it would be because of his own accomplishments.

And in a way I also can't help but find it heartwarming, because it was the Plegian people who got him to truly understand Emmeryn's ideals. He wanted peace, he wanted to follow her path, but it wasn't until the Plegians took her sacrifice for the peace offer it was and refused to continue fighting Ylisse that Chrom was finally able to comprehend what it meant that Emmeryn believed that all people wanted the same thing, that peace is something for everyone and not just purehearted saints like her who would never hurt a fly. So wouldn't it be sweet to expand on that existing connection? For the people who once bore a grudge against him and his nation to say, actually, our home is your home and you belong with us... For Chrom to reach back and decide that these are his people and that he will protect them...

Especially because that's what he's always done for Robin. Your father doesn't get to determine your path for you, your past doesn't dictate your future, you always have a place beside me because we are two halves of a greater whole. This AU is definitely a chrobin AU, because when Robin gets back I want them to rule at his side (after all, I do have feelings about Grima's loyalty to a people who have been praying to them to end their suffering for a thousand years).

Now, I do think that Chrom would never leave Ylisse while little Lucina was still growing up, but... Honestly it would probably take quite some time to establish a castle for Plegia's new ruler anyway (especially if they go super hard on the Altean revival theme and want it to be IN former Altean territory, which has become the "border wastes" and undoubtedly needs some help... But EVERYWHERE in Plegia needs help, so what better time to give the land some attention?) So when Lucina is an adult she can take over as Ylisse's true Exalt, and Chrom can focus his efforts on the other side of the border. I think he'd still be awkward about the whole thing, approaching it like "Well, I guess I'm here if you all still want me..." but Robin's there to give him confidence and the people there are SO excited for their hero to come and live with them and together they all usher in a new era of peace and prosperity as Ylisse and Plegia themselves become like two halves of a greater whole.

[veroni-woni]

one day I’m gonna ramble about why I think Robin/Grima are the same being in a way but not now .. probably with a Robin drawing idk

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

3, 9, 10, and 49 for Grima?

Two Grima anons!! Because you all are amazing and know me and the way to my heart

3. Obscure headcanon

Honestly, I feel like I've talked enough about Grima that all my headcanons have been exhausted in the "Grima Thoughts" tag and the "Grima Wormtongue" tag more broadly on my tumblr.

I suppose one that I've never voice too much, and haven't played with (YET. GET READY.**) is that I headcanon him as distinctly Not Cis but he's very convoluted and vague about what that means. The whole seidr aspect I read onto him adds different layers to how you can interpret that, especially given some views that seidr-working might have been viewed as an alternative gender, or an additional aspect to gender, or something in that ballpark of being different from man and woman.

I just enjoy that, aside from Eowyn, he is one of the characters you can make the strongest argument for being Outside the Gender Norms of Their Respective Society. This makes me very pleased and happy.

Grima just wants to be queen. Let him be one!!

--

**this only applies to people reading What Makes a King

9. Scene that first made me love (or hate) the character

For the movies it was the tear-drop scene in TTT after Saruman sends the uruk-hai off to Helms Deep. So much regret and realization of the scope of the impact of his actions captured in a single emotional moment. And it's fleeting! But so well done. No words are needed. Just dawning horror and that stomach-dropping-out-from-your-body feeling of What The Fuck Have I Done - This Was Not How It Was Supposed To Go.

In the books it's 100% when Grima is sassing back at Treebeard. He is Peak Drowned Rat and a GIANT TREE is telling him: You need to go to Orthanc. It's voer there.

And Grima. Who has been on a horse for two days straight, riding through the night, and probbaly hasn't eaten in 48h, and is now stinking soaking wet becuase Treebeard dropped him in the muck and mire of the waters around Orthanc. That man. That man looks at the Giant Tree, the stuff of childhood legends in Rohan, and his instinctual reaction is to be the sassiest most lie-filled bitch on the planet.

What the fuck Grima.

Grima: Well, since you don't think I was here on behalf of Theoden which was My Quickly Thought Up Plan Because I DID NOT Expect This. I will now just be super sassy at you as my fall back. Seems reasonable.

Tree Beard: ????

Love that deranged bastard so much.

Grima: [sees a being way, way more powerful than him. Gandalf, Treebeard, whatever] What if I just said some sick burns and was a petty bitch for fifteen minutes??

Eomer: . .... ..,, , as a treat?

Grima: As a treat!!

10. Best moment on screen (or in the book)

I loved his seduction scene in the film. That whole speech is masterfully rendered by Brad Dourif and Miranda Otto is also fantastic in that scene. Seeing her tempted, truly tempted, then pulling back like: nope, nope, nope, I can't. Grima's face when she leaves. Absolutely phenomenal.

I also love the "These Men Don't Know What Personal Space Is" scene with Eomer.

Nothing to see here. Move along everyone.

In the book, the best scene is everything in the Scouring of Shire. The wanting to take Frodo's offer of a helping hand. The desperation for that salvation from himself and the situation he is in - yet, he is so trapped in whatever it is he feels for Saruman. That quasi-enslaved state by the time we get to the end of ROTK. It's so fucked up and such a fantastic representation of the push/pull of abusive situations. I want out/I can't leave/I can see a future/I can't see a future. So well done.

(And I think Saruman-Grima dynamic is something Tolkien didn't know he had - at least in terms of the potential that is in it.)

While I have gone on before about Grima's death being a let-down in terms of thematic satisfaction, I do love, love, love that he gets to kill Saruman. He gets to put the knife in Saruman's back. That is so fantastic as a full circle of all the traitors betraying each other. ALSO, of course, Grima gets to kill the man who has spent the last eleven months torturing him for shits and giggles. We love to see it.

16. Deepest darkest secret they won’t even admit to themselves

I think Grima is very afraid to look at a lot of things about himself. He cannot look into the mirror straight-on. All truths about himself have to be captured in peripheral vision - which is to say, only ever faintly brushed against.

I don't know what the darkest secret is that he can't admit to himself. I suspect, for him, it's several. He's done so much harm in his life, and he's been also denied so much too, and wants so much, and has broken so much - it's all a tangled mess.

I think for Grima, what drives a lot of his actions post-Helm's Deep is a two-fold sunk-cost fallacy (that's the thing he can't admit to himself - it's not all lost. He can and should walk away. "If it's shit, hit the bricks" was not something he ever learned) and the inability to be able to see a life outside of Saruman. A path away from Orthanc. (Granted, no one was being helpful in that regard until Frodo. Literally no one. Not in any meaningful capacity.)

24. Most annoying habit

Maybe stop stealing things from people?

Probably, though, the sycophancy. The whole "oh my lord" this and "a wise/brilliant thing you said my lord" that. Ugh. Miss me with the verbal dick-sucking there, Grima.

I get why he does it. I 100% understand. I still find it grating. This is something, I will say, that turns up in fanfics more than canon. I've written it, myself, because it works for his character! It's what he would do! It makes sense post-Saruman that he would be like this! If he wasn't it would be weird! But my god Grima, get a spine and a sense of self-worth!

(Grima: shall not.)

For proper canon things, we don't really see enough of him to have specific habits to pick on. Because frankly, I find his thieving delightful and funny, if not a little whimsical. In fact, he should do more. Steal more things! Steal more things!

(Grima: Shall!!! Right now!!)

32. Something guaranteed to make them smile/laugh

Scathing commentary on people he hates. This man is a gossip and a first-class professional Bitcher. He can bitch with the best of them. Hearing dirty things about people makes him so happy.

Also, I think he likes word play and clever jokes. Riddling games and the like, especially ones that are terribly, terribly clever are near-guaranteed to make him smile.

I don't know that he laughs all that much. I think he does that snort/exhale as a form of "laughing" but I don't think he does full on laughing. Save very rarely, and I think it's a shockingly warm sound for someone who is a walking glacier in many respects.

49. Favorite toy as a child

Oh gods. This is hands down the toughest question. If only becuase I have only ever envisioned Grima's childhood as fairly toyless. But he would have had toys - even in the bleakest versions he would have had toys.

I can see little Grima, as a four/five/six year old, being partial to a small, carved cow. He likes the gentle eyes and is familiar with cattle and they smell like home. I can see him also having a small wagon as a boy and he would go out to a small copse and pretend to be a runaway who has joined up with a band of robbers or highway men. In the wagon he'd pack food and water and such, also his bow and a small knife.

Practicing a quick get-away since he was eight.

----

Thank you both so much! <3 <3 <3 This got long but 0 regrets. Grima deserves it.

[frodo-with-glasses]

More Reading Thoughts: The Scouring of the Shire

YOOOOOO HECK YEAH LET’S GOOOOOOOOO

(Okay so I downloaded Phil Dragash’s reading of this and listened to it on the longest plane flight of my trip and may or may not have made a total fool of myself grinning at it throughout LOLOL)

(But I didn’t have time to write my reactions to it until now so here we go)

“On the further side of the river they could see that some new houses had been built…all very gloomy and un-Shirelike” Uh-oh.

BAHAHAHA the way Sam immediately goes OFF

“SCREW YOU AND YOUR STUPID SIGN TOO”

I love Merry trying to be a diplomat

Frodo like “oh goodness gracious, now what trouble has that Lotho gotten up to with MY house”

(Also that little bit of stealth sass like “well I’m GLAD he’s not calling himself a Baggins anymore, I can pretend I’m not associated with him”)

Merry be like ���Fine, if you won’t open this gate, I’LL OPEN IT FOR MYSELF”

YO WHAAAAAT?? BILL FERNY?????

I mean I can’t say that I’m happy to see him but also it’s kinda fun to be this surprised. I’d forgotten all about him being here!

Haha the way he immediately runs away from Merry once he’s challenged tho

“Neat work, Bill!” HAHAHAHA

EAT PONY HOOF, LOSER

GOOD JOB BILL (the pony)

I love the fact that 50% of the hobbits’ intimidation factor comes from the fact that Merry and Pippin are so BigTM (and the other 50% is Swords)

Pippin listening to all this talking like “heck, I’m tired and wet and I don’t have time for this, just let me sleep in a shack if you want” is such a mood

Also Pippin tearing down the rule lists LOL

Sam has had it up to HERE with this nonsense

Me, at all the burning going on: “Uh-oh.”

“Looking both important and rather scared” Heehee X-D

“‘What’s all this?’ said Frodo, feeling inclined to laugh.” Me too, Frodo!

“Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools.” OKAY SAM GO OFF LOLOL

OKAY SO at this point in the audiobook Mr. Dragash had the most BRILLIANT reading for this line:

“To the discomfiture of the Shirriffs Frodo and his companions all… [dramatic pause, then raucous laughter erupts in the background] …roared with laughter.”

I LOVE IT SO MUCH IT’S SO PERFECT AHAHAHA

He also had a great reading for this part:

The sheriff, shouting after them, insistent but nervous: “But don’t forget! I’ve arrested you!” Frodo, with the softest voice ever: “I won’t. Never. But I may forgive you.”

Sam has a friend! :-D

I mean I’m sorry that this is the way we find it out but he has!! A buddy!!

Now I’m sure “cock-robin” must have had a different meaning in Tolkien’s time…

“If I hear not allowed much oftener, I’m going to get angry.” Same, Sam.

Eeeew the table hasn’t been scrubbed for WEEKS?? I can only imagine it looking like the underside of a restaurant table, months-old crusty chewing gum stuck on it and all. Blergh 🤮

LOLOL “They would have started earlier, only the delay so plainly annoyed the sheriff-leader”

Our four hobbits have come back from their adventure so delightfully full of SassTM

My word, if I keep pointing out every funny thing that happens here I’ll be writing down the whole chapter. Look at the hobbits hustling the sheriffs who were supposed to be “arresting” them!

NOW WHO’S ARRESTED WHO INDEED 🤣🤣

For someone who’s supposed to be arrested, it sure looks like Merry is the one who’s in charge :-3

And all the sheriffs like “WE GIVE UP” and the hobbits like “okay :-D”

ROBIN WAS ONE OF THE SHERIFFS THAT THEY WERE MESSING WITH OH NO 🤣🤣

“We shall break a good many things yet, and not ask you to answer. Good luck to you!” OKAY PIPPIN GO OFF

(......This is getting very long so I’m gonna put the rest under a read-more)

Nooooo look what they’ve done to Hobbiton D-8

This whole conversation is so tense. I find myself wanting to cheer on the hobbits’ comebacks, but the ruffian here always gets the upper hand in the next line…

DON’T SNAP YOUR FINGERS IN FRODO’S FACE!! Heckin’ RUDE! Only the Sackville-Bagginses have ever done that, and that’s BEFORE Frodo saved the world! D-:<

HECK YES, PIPPIN!! TELL ‘EM!!

“Down on your knees in the road and ask pardon, or I will set this troll’s bane in you!” >8-D Friendly reminder that Pippin stabbed a troll in the gut to sAVE BEREGOND— *is slapped*

The fact that Pippin, Merry and Sam immediately jump to Frodo’s defense, but Frodo does not. That says so much about their friendship, and about Frodo, and how they all see themselves and their roles in this story…and it’s so sad that Frodo hangs back, not even willing to defend himself…

But also how bad*ss is that, letting your three armed friends charge to your defense while you just sit there impassively?? It’s like the “cool guys don’t look at explosions” trope.

Pippin has exactly the childish drive for revenge that you’d think he would, but Frodo sees the reality of the situation and knows Lotho has been played as a puppet and is now a prisoner to his own schemes. Good stuff.

Frodo: “Violence isn’t the answer.” Merry: “You’re right. It’s the question, and the answer is yes.”

MERRY’S SPEECH HERE YESSSS

(The way the music swelled here in Dragash’s audiobook was so good ahahaha)

“Come on! I am going to blow the horn of Rohan, and give them all some music they have never heard before.”

OH.

HECK.

YEEEEAAAHHH!!!!!!! >8-D

(And this was the part of the audiobook where I grinned like an idiot and clapped my hands and bounced a little in my seat and probably confused the guy in the seat next to me LOLOL)

Sam HIMSELF wants to turn back for the horn call!! And so does Bill! Aaaaahhh!!

AWAKE! AWAKE! FEAR, FIRE, FOES! AWAKE!!

This was so well foreshadowed by the Ringwraiths in Buckland at the beginning of the book I cannot bELIEVE—!!

TOLKIEN YOU GENIUS

(Writer Brain is just buzzing with this right now, sorry, LOL)

“And your face is no worse than it was, Sam.” Is Farmer Cotton calling Sam ugly?? 🤣🤣 He’s roasting his future son-in-law LOLOL I love him already

Even Farmer Cotton ships Sam and Rosie ROFL

Rosie just asked why you left Mister Frodo! What do you do??

>Tell her you love her

>Run away

Sam ran away! (What a mood)

I love that they built the fire just for fun and because it’s against the rules, LOL! A fire is exactly the thing that would cheer me up too!!

I assume Robin was one of the sheriffs that took off his feather and joined in the revolt :-D

Merry like, “See, Frodo?? Violence!!”

“Good for the Tooks!” HECK YEAH

“I’ll bring you an army of Tooks in the morning!” HECK YEAH!!

It’s so sweet of Frodo to be like “I still don’t want anyone to die” but also still turning the logistics over to Merry’ cause he’s The Plan Guy

What have I said all along?? Merry is the Smart One :-D

FARMER COTTON JUST SITTING BY THE FIRE

WAITING FOR THEM TO COME

Okay Sam’s father-in-law is heckin’ BAD*SS I LOVE HIM

This is literally “put down your weapons, I’ve got a sniper with a bead on you”

“He aimed a savage blow at Merry who stood in his way. He fell dead with four arrows in him.” YOOOOOOOOO!!

I like to think Merry didn’t even flinch. Just like…watched him keel over dead. HECK.

I love how bad*ss all the hobbits get to be in this chapter ahahaha

Aaaaand all the others give up. Nice >:-D

Aww, Farmer Cotton and the Gaffer are friends! And Cotton would have housed the Gaffer himself if he could have!! I love how sweet they all are to each other ^-^

HA! Okay, Lobelia, that’s pretty cool, I admit. Maybe you’re all right after all. ;-P

The Gaffer just telling Frodo off for leaving 🤣🤣 And Frodo politely apologizing!! Because even though the Gaffer’s problems are small in comparison to everything else happening in the world, they’re still important! I’m love

AAAAAHHHHH FRODO GASSING UP SAM IN FRONT OF HIS DAD AND ROSIE AND EVERYBODY 8-D 8-D 8-D

This is so stinkin’ cute. Lookit my silver-tongued Baggins using his Words of Affirmation again! It’s the least he can do to repay Sam for all he’s done, but I think it’s the thing that means the most to Sam.

Frodo: “Indeed, if you will believe it, he’s now one of the most famous people in all the lands, and they are making songs about his deeds from here to the Sea and beyond the Great River!” Sam: 😳😅☺️ Rosie: 😲😍🥰 The Gaffer: “Sounds fake but okay”

THE TOOKS ARE HEREEEEE

I frickin’ love the “lure them into a trap and surround them with hobbits” tactic. You never think hobbits can be scary until there are A LOT OF THEM VERY SUDDENLY

I also think this is a fun use of the hobbits’ canonical superpower of staying hidden in plain sight.

HECK YEAHHHHH MERRY LET’S GO

Seventy ruffians dead, and only nineteen hobbits on the other. As casualties go, that’s not bad! Sad that any hobbits died at all, of course, but it’s a relatively clean victory.

Also the book gets Very Historical for a moment and I think that’s Very Funny

Heck yeah Cottons!

HECK YEAH MERRY AND PIPPIN!!

And Frodo does his part by protecting the ruffians who surrendered! The pacifist has a role to play. :-D

Noooo, look what they’ve done to Bag End!! D-8

NOOOOOO THE PARTY TREEEEE 😭😭😭

ME TOO, SAM, UWAAAAAHHH—

(Ted Sandyman accidentally foreshadowing Sam going over the Sea??)

Frodo is very right. If more hobbits are like Ted, the Shire is in real trouble. Worse is the enemy within than the enemy from without. :-/

“Save your breath! I’ve a better.” HAHAHA YES MERRY LET’S GO

Oh but look what they’ve done to Bag Endddd 😭😭😭

“Yes, this is Mordor.” Thanks, I hate it :-C

“If I had known all the mischief he had caused, I should have stuffed my pouch down Saruman’s throat.” Dude Merry sounded so angry in Phil Dragash’s audiobook here. (Also can’t believe that Merry’s bag has become the running joke that it is LOLOL)

>8-O >8-O >8-O SARUMAN!!

Saruman: “Ah, yes, they called me Sharkey in Isengard! A sign of affection, possibly.” Tolkien, in a footnote: “It was not, in fact, a sign of affection.”

I….do not like….how Saruman casts such aspersions on Gandalf. Nor how his accusations almost seem to have some merit at the moment. “When his tools have done their task he drops them.” That is dangerously close to accurate, or at the moment it feels like it is. Gandalf did leave them, even knowing that things were going wrong in the Shire…

But at the same time, it’s not Gandalf’s job to fix everything himself! The hobbits got to participate in the saving of their world, and they got the honor and the renown and the incredible experiences and the personal growth that comes along with it. Same thing here; they get the opportunity to be the heroes and save their own home. It isn’t easy, but it is good, and it has its own rewards.

“Well, if that’s what you find pleasure in, I pity you.” Frodo couldn’t be more right. Anyone who takes pleasure and comfort in the pain and misery of others is a pitiable person.

Frodo still refuses to kill. His home was defiled…his last comfort stolen…and his honor insulted to his face…and he still refuses to kill Saruman. Holy cow that takes some major strength of character. What an absolute chad.

YO WHAT

SARUMAN TRIED TO STAB FRODO

(And Sam leads the charge to avenge Frodo because Of Course He Does)

AND FRODO STILL WILL NOT KILL

THE ABSOLUTELY CHADDERY OF THIS HOBBIT

Talk about heaping coals on your enemy’s head, bruh. Even Saruman has to respect it.

And Frodo extending the olive branch to Wormtongue. Truly the G.O.A.T.

>8-O

EYOOOO??

WORMTONGUE KILLED LOTHO??

AND MAYBE A T E HIM????

Holy COW this got dark 0_o

(Also Dragash made Wormtongue sound absolutely miserable on that “you told me to; you made me do it”)

Aaaand Saruman is dead

And Wormtongue is dead

Something something Saruman’s spirit looking to the West, from which he came, and where he can never return again, and then being blown away to nothingness…

It really is the saddest thing that the end of the war happens at the door of Bag End. Nowhere is safe. The movies have the hobbits return to an unchanged Shire, realizing that they’re the ones who’ve been changed by their experiences, and they’ll never be able to see home the same way again (which is, I think, analogous to the experience of American Vietnam vets)…..but here in the book, the war comes home, marring the very land that our heroes set out to protect, which is what Tolkien experienced at the end of the Great War. They’re different kinds of tragedy, and they both hurt, but I think this one is just an edge more bitter.

…..Anyway, I loved this chapter! It ends with on a downer note, but the rest of it was a lot of fun. X-P

[evostrashbin]

the curse of immortality (spoiler: Kiran is also on this picture 👍)

[pixlatedvampire]

I havent finished anything in a bit so please enjoy my favorite Grima doodles lmao 💗🥰

[yusuke-of-valla]

Congratulations for Mai Okuma for being the best Camilla artist that isn't Kozaki, Legendary Cammy is gorgeous!

[roboraindrop]

Sorry I am absolutely lovesick rn--