#Grima thoughts

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

I’m having so many Gernot thoughts - he’s rotating delightfully on the pottery wheel in my head

I just enjoy positioning him within the historical reality of early 16th c Bavaria and thinking through the many options there are for what motivated him, what made him tick (beyond the obvious of greed and fear) and man, he’s giving me as much delight as Grima does in exploring the “uglier” parts of humanity and what makes us function that way

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

Ah that’s because of a few thing! None of which is Saruman—at least in the books.

—he would have arrived to Edoras as Grima son of Galmod, which is his actual name.

—Wormtongue, or wyrmtunga, as it would be in Anglo-Saxon-adjacent world and Rohirrim is based on Anglo-Saxon English and wyrm, of course means dragon (see how it’s used in the Hobbit interchangeably with the word dragon to refer to Smaug). It’s the “translation” of his Rohirrim kenning to Westron that gives us the Wormtongue which of course, is a nice touch on the slimey side of him. But likely when it was first bestowed on him it would have been closer to “dragon tongue” in meaning due to his evident penchant for word play and riddling etc (the battle of wits with Gandalf in the books captures this much better than the film)

—essentially it went from “oh your good at word play and riddles, like a dragon” to “you’re untrustworthy and sly and slithery like a dragon” THEN in Westron it gets the “you’re a gross thing on the ground” meaning

So it’s not like he rocked up to Edoras as Grima Untrustworthy McUntrustworhiness as his name. It was just Grima son of Galmod.

—books have Gandalf imply that Grima’s been around court for a good amount of time and once was loyal to Theoden and Rohan and did his job (whatever it is) well and reliably. It’s only in the last so-many years that he switched sides

—which no one expected! So really it’s just Eomer and Eowyn and Theodred who are like “he’s being Suspicious” and half of it for Eowyn and Eomer was also Grima having the hots for Eowyn. Anyway, Grima was trusted! He was a member of the king’s household! There was no reason for the average person in court to suspect him

—as for bringing charges against him public, there would still need to be evidence and Tolkien states in the books that Grima was damn good at being a sneaky spy so there was nothing solid to bring forward as proof

—————

Anyway! That’s the very abbreviated version since I’m out and on my phone, but yeah. Not as straightforward as it may seem!

I love the trope of "oh look, it's the king's most trusted advisor." And then it's just the least trustworthy person imaginable. Like in LOTR, you've got Grima Wormtongue slithering around Theoden's court giving bad advice and telling lies uninhibited until Gandalf and the gang show up. His name is Grima Wormtongue. Forget becoming an advisor, why'd they even let this guy in? How'd he get promoted to a position like that? Who looks at a devious little man with a name like that and immediately goes "ah yes, he seems like a trustworthy advisor" Saruman's magical influence doing heavy lifting here.

[evostrashbin]

another quick warmup doodle meme redraw thingy that was funny to me

[pixlatedvampire]

I havent finished anything in a bit so please enjoy my favorite Grima doodles lmao 💗🥰

[samthepotterhead]

am I dumb or does beorn not look like a bear but more like a warg? and in man form he looks like a half transformed werewolf (like fenrir greyback in the movies).

sometimes I can't tell fili and thorin apart. I mean, they are related!

I only just remembered the spiders from the forbidden forest. another parallel between hp and lotr, but I totally glossed over that while reading the hobbit.

I don't know if I've said this before, but martin freeman is so perfect for this role. this inherit englishness and bourgeois vibe. and his body language and facial expressions!

elvish (I don't know which dialect/branch this is ok) sounds not so ethereal when spoken. I mean it was based on finnish, so…

that kili is considered tall for a dwarf works well with the fan theory/headcanon that he isn't fully dwarf.

was the silvan elf king featured this much in the book? and was he mentioned in thorin's back story at all? I honestly recall so little of the hobbit already... but again if it wasn't mentioned, it makes a lot of sense in the movie.

I think tauriel is a bit too human acting for an elf, they are usually so mysterious (legolas and the king are doing that). ok the guards were also in the book and not so elvish. maybe it's just a nobility thing.

I like the romance tbh. a pity they created the only female elf in the movie (apart from galadriel) for that, but better than zero like in the hobbit...

I always wonder how there are not a trillion elves since they can procreate but are basically immortal? like even if they go to the grey havens every once in a while, I'm sure many stay on?

is that balin's tomb? where is gandalf here? I'm a bit confused. but in general, the tie-in with the lotr plot works so well in this one.

ok the plot is quite significantly deviating from the book now. I'm not against it bc the lake town plot was super info-dumpy in the hobbit, but I also don't really need another basic male hero... but stephen fry I approve of! the counsellor gives off a very wormtonguey vibe. was this intentional? but man that was a lot of grossness in a few minutes.

the elves have exactly the weird springly step I imagined, I love the attention to detail :)

ok the secret door looks not so secret in this… but these sets are so intricate, I can't say it enough!

pretty sure the dwarf ring plot was not in the hobbit. will it be in lotr?

smaug, guarding a plot-wise important item is exactly like the dragon in gringotts in dh. though that is of course also originally from norse mythology. at any rate, I didn't remember that smaug could talk? and bilbo has learned not to tell a random being his full name and species. good job, bilbo.

man this movie is long… feels much longer than the first one. they are stalling with these dragon scenes. the liquid gold and statue part was cool, but unneccessary.

they really kept the women-belong-to-the.house theme going here :/ only bard's son is allowed to run around town. and how come no one else in lake town saw the orcs on the roofs?

saving kili's life has become a full time job for tauriel. in general, the kili/tauriel scenes are cute, but adding nothing to the pregression of the plot at this point. but now it seems they've know each other before? maybe I'm misinterpreting.

oh my god, it's ed sheeran. why is he in every fantasy thing? (ok, only in got as well, that I know of, but still - weird that it happend twice right? etc.) wait, I actually know this song, this was in the charts. I never knew this was from the hobbit! it honestly sounds like an ai generated song though, with the words "fire", "mountain" and "desolation" put in as a prompt...

too stunned by this revelation to properly rate the movie now, but I guess I liked as a whole, it was only a bit too long and not as well plotted as the first one.

[felikatze]

Why does Grima have two bodies?

okay @ro-botany brought up the question and i think i have an answer.

The hand-wavey explanation is obviously "reincarnation bullshit" but we can get more precise than that. You're gonna have to suppose reincarnation theory with me cuz this doesn't work for possession theory i think but if you know me that's a given anyway.

Regardless. Part of dawn's spectacular reincarnation theory argument is a noted oddity in how future Robin was able to claim the Dragon's Table. bcuz, didn't they already do that in their own timeline? If the table contains Grima's soul, this Robin already has it. If they take what's sealed in the table now, they'd have two of those!

Unless, of course, everything inside the table isn't alive. Then they could claim it as often as they please! So what's in there? Grima's power?

Well, I say, Grima's corpse.

After all, we have precedent for dragons' bodies being sealed inside there, alive or not.

And, the future Robin has a demonstrated proficiency in controlling dead bodies.

If we suppose that the Grima in the table is dead, their soul went on to be reborn as Robin, we run into another fact. Robin isn't a manakete.

No matter if they have a dragon's soul or not, they are physically incapable of transforming. They are human, through and through. Yes, they have "Grima's blood" - in the exact same way Chrom has Naga's. It's likely a blood pact made with some human allied with Grima back during the Schism, same as any other draconic blood pacts throughout the series.

And, listen, Rogrima is such an overdramatic bastard, are they really gonna settle for bringing ruin to the world with a goddamn tome? No.

Yeah it's all assumptions, but it's not contradicting anything per canon, right, and how else do we have fun.

So, combining what I've laid out - everything sealed in the Dragon's Table is likely dead. Future Robin can take control of dead bodies.

Ergo, future Robin took control of their own past dead body, hence two of them.

TLDR: It's just one fuck-off huge Risen made of their own corpse that they now control like an additional limb.

Which would also explain why Chrom & co. only have to take out future Robin's human form. That's where the actual heart is, and without them, the dragon will just be a regular gigantic corpse again. Or even just crumble to dust (which is why we probably don't have one giant clean up action... thank goodness Grima was courteous enough to hold the final battle over the ocean.)

[reshiram]

i wish for feh EOS everyday but i do have to admit ive been smiling at this ever since it happened this morning.

[spinnenpfote6]

It took me so long to realize that Grima Wormtongue doesn't have eyebrows

Like the frickin' Leto Joker

That's literally the worst thing about him

It bothers me so much now

[thiswaycomessomethingwicked]

I wanna tell you I really cherish your transfem Grima reading. She lives rentfree in my head since, conniving and such <3

💜💜💜💜 yessss i am so glad!! I stand by Grima being trans as just as valid a thought as other more favoured characters being read as trans (coughfaramirasatransdudecough)

Trans women get little to no rep, too, in fandom and I think that’s a shame

Let grima be a queen! It’s what she wants!!

[roboraindrop]

*lays face down on the ground* I have so much love in me and I can't decide who it is going to

[evostrashbin]

the curse of immortality (spoiler: Kiran is also on this picture 👍)

[pixlatedvampire]

it happened... i rewatched two towers finally...

part 2

[the-priestess-of-dawn]

Been thinking about a postgame scenario that goes in a direction I don't think canon would ever take in a million years, but like... I think it could be really compelling...

And that's the idea of Chrom becoming Plegia's king after Grima's defeat. And specifically giving up his claim to Ylisse's throne to do it (leaving it to Lucina when she's old enough).

Because here's the thing... The game ends with Grima's defeat/Robin's return in the sacrifice ending. It doesn't address what happens to Plegia at all, and while I personally maintain that Aversa is the most qualified candidate to rule, her canon ending provides that she goes back to the village she was born in. So, fine. Let's give her that.

But SOMEONE has to do SOMETHING because realistically, Plegia is in dire straits. Validar, the king and the leader of the Grimleal, is dead. He gave, like, ALL of Plegia's resources to the Ylissean League (well, okay, we don't know how much, if any, he left in reserve, but... He really needed Walhart gone and it's not like he had any reason to think that anyone would need resources once Grima was running around, so... chances are good there's little to nothing left in the wake of the averted apocalypse). And the population has been utterly devastated, because not only did people (exactly how many is unclear, but presumably it took more than just a couple) have to sacrifice themselves to renew the fell dragon's power, but Grima was also spawning Grimleal onto their back at the final battle. Their losses are so immense...

So first of all, Chrom is definitely responsible for taking all their resources and setting half of them on fire (Now to be fair, Flavia and Basilio are also responsible, but... Idk, I kinda feel like they'd bicker with each other over who has to do the crappy parts of the job and then agree that they should just ask Chrom if he can do it. Like "Haha, if you didn't want to deal with thieves ambushing the Longfort to steal construction supplies, you shouldn't have gone and beaten me at the last tournament!" "Oh, shut up. Let's see if Chrom can send his thief friend over to talk these guys down. Or kill them, whichever." I mean, Chrom is always going to be their guy who knows a guy.) There's just no way Chrom would abandon the surviving Plegians who need help anyway, but especially not when he knows the war with Valm would've ended before it could begin without them.

Of course, there's the historical hostility between Ylisse and Plegia to consider, but... If anyone's protesting, it's probably the Ylisseans. Because the survivng Plegians, uh... probably were never Grima's most devoted followers in the first place (if you really wanted to give Grima your life, you'd rush to the front of the line at the Dragon's Table, right?) and even if they used to consider themselves true Grimleal, the religion's leadership is destroyed, and—for the purpose of this scenario, I'm considering it post-sacrifice ending—the fell dragon is gone and not coming back. These people narrowly avoided becoming Grima's breakfast or Grima's meat shields. They all almost certainly know someone who wasn't as lucky. And the one who saved them... Well, it was Chrom, wasn't it? Because he believed in humanity enough to challenge the concept of fate, a fate that the people of Plegia were surely taught was inescapable. Despite their history with Ylisse, it's hardly unreasonable for them to see Chrom as a savior to them specifically. The second coming of the Hero-King who ought for the lives of all humans, really.

And yeah, I'm going here... Chrom is Marth's descendant. Marth was Altean. Former Altea is is modern Plegia, so technically, the people can argue that he's actually theirs.

Doesn't it sort of make sense, even? Plegia is ruined, the god to whom the theocracy was devoted killed. "What we need is to restore the glory of ancient Altea!" And who better to help them than Chrom, Marth's successor in blood and in spirit?

But Chrom would frown and say no. Of course he's going to help them restore their country to prosperity—or at least to independent, peaceful functioning. But king? Sheesh, that's going too far. Come on guys, you don't really want that. Besides, he's already ruling Ylisse...

Except, he's not ruling it as Exalt. At least, not at first he's not. He forswore the title when he started his rule and in canon he is only official welcomed as Exalt after Grima's defeat. But what if he just... continued to not accept it. It's not like he ever wanted to be Exalt. He only has the right to rule because Emmeryn died—because he failed to protect her. It has nothing to do with any of his successes.

But if the Plegians made him their king, then it would be because of his own accomplishments.

And in a way I also can't help but find it heartwarming, because it was the Plegian people who got him to truly understand Emmeryn's ideals. He wanted peace, he wanted to follow her path, but it wasn't until the Plegians took her sacrifice for the peace offer it was and refused to continue fighting Ylisse that Chrom was finally able to comprehend what it meant that Emmeryn believed that all people wanted the same thing, that peace is something for everyone and not just purehearted saints like her who would never hurt a fly. So wouldn't it be sweet to expand on that existing connection? For the people who once bore a grudge against him and his nation to say, actually, our home is your home and you belong with us... For Chrom to reach back and decide that these are his people and that he will protect them...

Especially because that's what he's always done for Robin. Your father doesn't get to determine your path for you, your past doesn't dictate your future, you always have a place beside me because we are two halves of a greater whole. This AU is definitely a chrobin AU, because when Robin gets back I want them to rule at his side (after all, I do have feelings about Grima's loyalty to a people who have been praying to them to end their suffering for a thousand years).

Now, I do think that Chrom would never leave Ylisse while little Lucina was still growing up, but... Honestly it would probably take quite some time to establish a castle for Plegia's new ruler anyway (especially if they go super hard on the Altean revival theme and want it to be IN former Altean territory, which has become the "border wastes" and undoubtedly needs some help... But EVERYWHERE in Plegia needs help, so what better time to give the land some attention?) So when Lucina is an adult she can take over as Ylisse's true Exalt, and Chrom can focus his efforts on the other side of the border. I think he'd still be awkward about the whole thing, approaching it like "Well, I guess I'm here if you all still want me..." but Robin's there to give him confidence and the people there are SO excited for their hero to come and live with them and together they all usher in a new era of peace and prosperity as Ylisse and Plegia themselves become like two halves of a greater whole.

[skully-64]

As the lead taction of the Ylissian army, and personal friend of the acting exalt, Vinnie had been taken along to ask for assistance from the new king of Plegia.

Aversa, the royal adviser, guides them through the castle, speaking about the new king, Validar, talking about how the both of the are Grimleal, worshippers of the dragon Grima. As they all approach the meeting room, she explains that they meant to pay a visit to Ylisstol, though is cut off by the arrival of the king.

Vinnie immediately recognizes him, the assassin that tried to kill Emmeryn two years ago, now the king of Plegia. He can hear Chrom talking, though he pays no attention, his mind racing to come up with some explanation of how a man he himself killed is now standing before him as the king of a country.

"And you must be Lady Vincian." Vinnie blinks, and looks up at Validar as the king addresses him.

"Sir Vincian." he corrects. "You know of me, Sire?"

Validar chuckles darkly, his mouth contorting into a grin that set off all the alarm bells in Vinnie's head "Sir Vincian, my apologies. The whole world knows of Ylisse's master taction! And indeed, I see the sparkle of wisdom in your eyes."

Vinnie averts his gaze, and the meeting continues. Though he really should be paying attention, he can't seem to bring himself to. After a few minutes, a new figure stepped into the room, dressed in the same coat that Vinnie wore, and though he wore a different garb underneath the coat now, she was wearing the same clothes he had when he first awoke two years before. A small amount of raspberry hair seeps out from beneath the hood that covered her face

"The heart still sleeps, but the blood flows through it. And the blood is strong." The figure speaks, sounding uncannily like Vinnie when he doesn't remember to shift his voice to a more masculine pitch.

Vinnie looks up at the figure, taking in her appearance. Silence covered the room for a brief second, before Vinnie spoke "Are... Are you speaking to me?"

She did not answer. Fredrick stepped forward, and spoke with the same confidence he always did "Good hierophant, I would ask you to lower your cowl. In Ylisse, it is a courtesy expected of one in the presence of royalty."

She was silent for a beat, before responding "You are a long way from Ylisse, sir...But very well..." She pulled down her hood, and Vinnie's blood. Her raspberry hair covered half her face, and there was a strand far longer than the rest on the other side. Her eyes were a deep greenish blue, with little flecks of gold throughout, and she looked Identical to Vinnie. "Is that better?"

Vinnie stayed silent, thought the others let out cries of surprise in reaction. The woman smirked, seeming pleased with the reaction she had caused. "My name is Vincian. Oh, and that was your name as well, wasn't it? what a strange coincidence..."

Vinnie could barely hear what else was said, though they were rushed out soon after that. As soon as they exited the castle, and were out of earshot of Aversa, Validar, and the other Vincian, Vinnie turned to Chrom. "That's not possible." he was sure that his face, as well as his voice betrayed his panic, as he was too rattled to maintain his usual facade of calm.

Chrom nodded "She looked exactly like you, er, well not because you look like a woman-"

Vinnie cut him off "Yes, that, but her name..."

Chrom blinked "A strange coincidence all things considered, but-"

Vinnie cut him off once more "No, Chrom, I made up the name Vincian. not when you first found me in that field, before then. Sure, it's possible someone else thought of it at some point, but it's not a plegian name, and it sure as hell isn't common." he paused to take a breath, "The nickname Vinnie is common with another real name, but it has more of a masculine connotation... It's all too much to be a coincidence. it's like her whole.. well, everything, is modeled after me..."

Chrom and Fredrick both gave Vinnie a grave look. neither of them had answers either. Still, they had bigger things to focus on at the moment than this.

[veroni-woni]

one day I’m gonna ramble about why I think Robin/Grima are the same being in a way but not now .. probably with a Robin drawing idk

[felikatze]

guys i think instead of considering whether grima is a reptile we have to consider a much more terrifying possibility.

all dragons in fire emblem are mammals.