#Gloam-Eyed Queen

[katyahina]

+1 Gloam-Eyed Queen bit?

ok For starters, guys I am sorry for being a dumbass with my frequient point on how as a firstborn Messmer is Marika's 'natural' fated opposite (talking like, there is no bigger story to his curse besides some things needing to die despite the world Marika wanted). Because in reality, Marika's natural opposite is Gloam-Eyed Queen!

Their runes are opposites of each other conceptually (life and death), but also in shape (same shape but upward vs downward)! Primordial Elden Ring includes both of them, where they meet at the top!

^ Also notice how the primordial Elden Ring features 8 rings, but the current one has only 4! It really does appear that Marika removed half of the whole thing. Maybe even more than that, with all the branching shapes and the spiral at the centre! The branches and the spiral represent the crucible and evolution itself, of course

In simplest terms, everything points towards how both Marika and GEQ were given their power simultaneously, to rule the world and represent opposing aspects for the balance, but Marika wanted to live forever (? she is literally called 'eternal') and removed the competition!

I am just being a huge clown about trying to keep all Elden Ring information at once and my brain is failing fdsggfds But yes, i rember now xD So, maybe Messmer and Melina turning out to be Like This was the result of Marika trying to deceive the fate and failing! She didn't want herself or her Erdtree to die in fire, but in turn, her firstborns were this same "hazard" all over again?

So, potential idea: originally Scadutree was domain of GEQ, again, originally complimenting it:

^ Incantations of Godskins are very whirlwind-ish, but at this rate I wonder whether the spiral of two represented GEQ and Scadutree, whereas the straight line through them represented Marika and Erdtree! But now Scadutree doesn't have the "owner", especially since Shadow Realm is sealed away (literally has Marika's veil all over the sky and Miyazaki himself pointed out it wasn't accidental), though Messmer can qualify now I guess?

So in other words, Marika's first children might have suffered as sort of karmic retribution for her two main attempts to deceive fate: Messmer got Fellgod'd and Melina got Gloameyedqueen'd. But, ironically, Messmer is doing GEQ's "job" and Melina is doing Fire of Ruin xD

[asklesbianonceler]

Metyr, The Gloam-Eyed Queen, and The Nox

Lore, item, and speculation analysis. Looking at coincidences and theories a bit closer below the cut.

This is a little more disjointed than my last analysis.

@dykeishheart Replied to your post: I would be curious to know if you think anything in particular about the finger ruins of Rhia and Dheo being shaped just like the godslayer incantation insignia. I haven't seen any people mention it before but I was almost wondering if it's a false thread, like maybe it isn't meant to look like that intentionally bc nothing in Ymir/Metyr quest uses or mentions black flame or the gloam-eyed queen. Unless we interpret Metyr's pink gazing eye as 'gloam' (twilight)

I got this reply and said "yeah, I'll finally get into this!" So thank you!!

I've mentioned vaguely having thoughts on The GEQ/Metyr connections as well as Metyr's connection to the Nox but never got into any of it concretely. I know this specific reply isn't saying Metyr and the GEQ are connected beyond this but I've seen it A LOT and I've wanted to talk about it so it's a good excuse!

You can scroll down to my "Actual Interpretation" header if you want to skip over other's theories and a brief GEQ summary

I want to start by giving an overview on the points I've seen floating around that bring up visual similarities between Metyr and the GEQ so we have a basis for this.

The pattern on Metyr's face, the fingerprint, is similar to both the shape of the godslayer incantations as well as, as user dykeishheart pointed out, the above ground finger ruins

Metyr's tail fingers are in a twist, similar to the helix on the godslayer greatsword.

The godslayer greatsword has a swirling, fingerprint-like pattern on the beginning of the blade before it breaks into a twist

The dominula cape has similar patterns to the incantation as well as the finger sorcery symbols

Jolan and Anna's armor of night, has another similar fingerprint/godslayer-like symbol on the front

My hesitancy with addressing this in detail is that I don't want people to think I'm telling them they're wrong or coming off as argumentative. This is simply my take on the theory. But we're no strangers to characters being associated with the GEQ

So without further adieu, with the points I'll be contesting laid out, here are my thoughts on why Metyr is not connected to the GEQ.

GEQ basics:

We know the GEQ had her own two fingers, was an Empyrean, and was a direct timeline competition to Marika. It seems that, to the Greater Will, they were both potential candidates vying for Elden Lord, each trying to unite the lands between, and possibly the land of shadow, to the GWs plan. It is unclear if at this time the fingers were already unsound and giving baseless messages. I personally do not believe so as these were likely the first sets of two fingers to be bestowed upon Empyreans and still in their early history. It would also make sense that the GW would want false or unfit gods killed off before it's new plan is enacted.

The GEQ controlled destined death, a key aspect of the Elden Ring and one that would be incredibly dangerous for Marika who sought godhood. Thus she and Malekith went to war against her and her Godskins

She raised her godksin from birth, turning the dead flesh of unnamed, and unimportant gods into her children- via the godskin swaddling cloth, also directly connecting her to motherhood.

The meaning of Gloam is roughly synonymous with evening, dusk, twilight, and crepuscule, a time of day characterized by sunset- a blueish to orange/sometimes purple sky. We could also interpret this as "coming to an end" the setting of the sun, the absence of light, or gold. (making her a direct foil to Marika)

Her and her apostles are associated with Black, obsidian, and a deep purple gemstone

My first question about this theory is, what is the theory specifically? That Metyr IS the GEQ or that the GEQ was a follower/champion of Metyr/sanctioned by Metyr?

ON TO

MY ACTUAL INTERPRETATIONS:

My initial thought on the godslayer seal/symbol was always that of inverted fire. A fire devoid of warmth or life, the opposite of those wielded by others in Elden Ring. This is still my interpretation. The Stone set in the middle of the seal, to me, also do not seem intentional enough for me to connect it to Metyr. Had it been anything but black I would be more inclined to give this more weight. Metyr's eye is red/orangeish, bearing an odd crossed separation down its iris. I believe there are too many similar swirling, round patterns in other incantations for this to seem concretely intentional. The Frenzy Flame, Dragon communion, and others all have a swirling in the center. The other thing setting this symbol apart from a fingerprint is the symbols between each ring.

As far as the finger ruins shape, to me they almost feel like sites of large meteor crashes, further suggested by the falling star beast. And Metyr herself is a falling star. Their shape to me feels like a trail of something hitting the ground and settling. I believe it says the lampreys aren't from the land of shadow as well but I could be wrong. They feel very alien and touched by outer presence. I think their fingerprint line shape also feels like the ripples of something crashing there.

Metyr is also a shockingly developed god in comparison to the Elden Beast, so much so that I cannot see her being or sanctioning The GEQ. As I got into in my Ymir Analysis post, Metyr is given strong characterization and emotion. She is loyal and subservient to the GW to the end. Even when she is abandoned she remains true to the purpose it gave her, grieving her corrupt children, waiting, alone, and growing resentful- but only to the point of physical violence via her thrashing and wielding of her head as a weapon. Her built up anger, as her remembrance weapon states, manifests in crushing blows of her head as a weapon. Her utmost rage is literally her beating her head against the ground in frustration, to the detriment of those around her and likely herself. She is described as a kowtower to the GW and seemingly deals with far too much of her own grief, self doubt, and obligation to come up with her own agenda or enact another agenda herself/take any matters into her own hands to the extent of the GEQ. We have also seen the result of her direct connection with others via Ymir and seeing as this is the first/only time we see finger sorcery learned from her it's unlikely anyone else ever made contact to this extent. Her connection to the GEQ is that she birthed the fingers that told the GEQ what to do.

Perhaps, as many others, the GEQ was enamored by the teachings of her two fingers and took inspiration from its form. This wouldn't be uncommon. We see fingerprints in Frenzy flame items, Nox items, and the fingerprint shield- which is an item I would like to get into a lot more in a moment. But to connect her that closely to Metyr feels incredibly out of character for Metyr. Metyr is also largely connected to int builds and sorcery. Never Faith. Even the High Priest Hat boosts both Int and Arcane, not touching upon Faith. I also believe the lack of godskins in the land of shadow is incredibly telling. If the GEQ had connections to Metyr there would surely be something mentioning her blackflame or godskins in the DLC

Both are also associated with motherhood, but to the point that i think it's the opposite of something that connects them narratively. The GEQ has such a specific and unique way of creating her children/warriors, far too different from Metyr's

As far as the connection to her tail fingers goes, there are also countless other connections to helixes being associated with the divine, a main one being the hornsent. Her sword also doesn't have the classic spinal look down the center of the blade that both the Sacred relic sword and fingerslayer blade do.

In terms of connecting dominula to the godskin, that is entirely possible, but this just comes back to my feelings on the godslayer symbol. Connecting anything at all to the finger sorcery symbol would be baseless. This design takes far too much inspiration from the Carian and Raya Lucarian sigils to not be something Ymir created for his own sorceries, thus unique to the land of shadow and his studying of Metyr.

Metyr also seems far too connected to the stars for me to associate her with someone who's name means dusk- a time of day characterized by sunlight still being in the sky albeit fading. You really can't see stars during this time and certainly not enough for them to seem bright. She is far more associated with pure night than evening. Great segway.

The Nox and the Fingerprints and a Slayed God

Like I wanted GEQ lore in the dlc. I wanted to know more about her. But I truly think she's dead :(

I think sometimes we're just looking for GEQs so much that maybe we're overlooking some smaller revelations from the Metyr quest.

Specifically in regards to the Nox's reason for banishment and the fingerslayer blade.

Jolan and Anna are nox swordhands of Night. Their armor describes the swordhands as being born deep underground and their armor bears the fingerprint marking- actually described as a fingerprint in the description this time. But they don't wear this armor because they are in Metyr/Ymir's service. They arrived at the land of shadow wearing this armor that is designed to keep them in the dark and there were more than just two of them. We find the armor on a corpse in a body bag in bonny gaol, next to multiple other bodybags. But we can say for sure there were at least three swordhands here. And they must have had a purpose here for them to be the only Nox in the lands of shadow.

And this got me thinking. What other items specifically reference fingerprints and at first it just seems like frenzy items which seemed like a dead end. But there's one specific item that although related to frenzy, references a time before that- The fingerprint stone shield which is "part of the tomb of an ancient god---- the very seeds from which frenzy first started" So similar to Godwyn's death, a death created an unforeseen consequence, but who was this god? Who killed him? Well, aside from the GEQ, there is one other group of people known for knowing how to kill gods. The Nox. And they had a reason to do so. The Fingerslayer blade is born of a corpse and bears a similar helix and spinal design to the sacred relic sword, implying it is from the body of a god. The sword of a vassal/god that is capable of killing another. Perhaps this was the god the Nox killed in order to create the blade. Perhaps they did not kill this god themselves and merely robbed it's grave and defiled the body by rending the fingerslayer blade from it. The recurring fingerprint motif on the armor of the swordhands and on the tomb is an interesting connection. Regardless, the Nox did not want to be governed by the GW's influence, instead they followed the stars. They were the original GW haters and they wanted to kill one of its vassals and harm the GW. Which vassal did they intend to kill? Ranni uses it on her two fingers but perhaps it was made for Metyr, the source of the GW's messages that they hated so much. They were never able to use it. It's creation led them to be banished and stripped of the stars at the hands of the GW. Swordstress armor states, " Now they live under a false night sky, in eternal anticipation of their liege. Of the coming age of the stars. And their lord of night"

This would make sense as to why the swordhands are in the land of shadow. They were looking for Metyr. And it would also give us some food for thought on Jolan and Anna, Anna perhaps being the one who still believed in their original purpose and Jolan, having disagreed with her. Jolan instead believing she has found what the Nox were awaiting, the return of their stars and their lord of night. Her infatuation with stars, saying Ymir is her shining star, and doing as he asks without question, knowing he sees fate in the stars, heavily implies this is what she believes. Perhaps she too seeks redemption for what she's done as a swordhands, her weak heart leading her to forsake her original goal and seeking her fate in Ymir's stars.

Time to yap, because I understand I'm probably wrong about the ancient god connection bit:

Yapping: This ancient god to Nox connection is just theorizing. We could even theorize that the ancient god mentioned in the fingerprint shield is the GEQs grave and that maybe the Nox didn't kill this god and merely looted the grave, but the timeline on that might be odd. I can't say for sure. Further we can ask who's fingers were the three fingers, this ancient god's? GEQs? Or are they even fingers? Are they merely an apparition of something we will accept messages from? If Marika put the nomadic merchants in that hole in the ground it would also imply she put the tomb down there that held a dead god. A god she killed maybe? Really seems like that's where she puts shit she wants to forget about... The shunning grounds and all that.

Misc images that may be relevant!

[blaiddfailcam]

Kind of an odd idea, but I wonder if the hides worn by Godskin Apostles/Nobles aren't exactly god skin, but skin of individuals parasitized by an Outer God's visage?

Parasitic faces are a weirdly common trend in Elden Ring as it is, between the Fell God on the Fire Giant's torso, Rykard's face sprouting from the Eternal Serpent's throat, and the Prince of Death infecting the carapaces of crabs feeding near sullied water. The faces that appear on the Godskins' god skins are all rather similar, each lacking mouths and sporting golden eyes. The Godskin Nobles' aprons are especially revered among their kind for the seven ubiquitous faces that graced whatever strange creature's backside it was fashioned from.

A ghost at the entrance of Dominula recites their pleading not to be flayed, insisting their "hide is filthy." Evidently, the village was harvesting human skin in their mad rituals, perhaps as offering to the Apostle above (the blue capes worn by some of the celebrants are marked with the Black Flame sigil). Stranger still, the Albinauric Mask's description alludes to god skin, as if whoever had slaughtered the poor creature had contemplated its proximity to godhood.

In both Rykard and the Prince of Death's cases, ingestion was required to give purchase to the invading visage, but as for the Fell God, it would seem that Outer Gods can infect hosts through lineage, hence the gaping hole in the trolls' chests inserted with a tombstone. Black Flame is likely derived from the Flame of Ruin, so perhaps it's likely that the faces on the Godskins' raiments manifested in a similar fashion. Whatever beings once bore them, their epidermis was revered for its suppleness, but it's possible this trait was emergent in "chosen" individuals regardless of their species, similar to Crucible horns.

Imagine waking up one morning with a mouthless face sticking out of your back and knowing some jackass with an oversized sewing needle would be out to get you. I don't know what's worse, actually—being hunted and skinned? or being stuck with the Wise Mystical Tree growing out of your ass cheek?

[gamingisalifestyle]

The Gloam-Eyed Queen by Ariamis Arts

[thatboreddrake]

The Identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen

Okay, so. I am once again asking you to bear with me as I attempt to stitch a cohesive lore from approximately three item descriptions and one line of dialogue. This was the product of one of my first forays into Elden Ring headcanoning, but I think this one actually holds some warning.

Once again, obligatory "this is a headcanon theory with, at best, threadbare evidence in the actual game, but also it makes the whole story make more sense to me" warning. This time, we will be looking at, if I am correct, the only character in Elden Ring who is never referenced by name by another NPC and the identity of a long-dead Empyrean whose servants are some of the most annoying bosses in-game. I am speaking, of course, of Melina, the Kindling Maiden and the Gloam-Eyed Queen.

As before, we're going to start with item descriptions to get an idea of what we know from the game:

Godskin Apostle set: "The apostles, once said to serve Destined Death, are wielders of the god-slaying black flame.  But after their defeat by Maliketh, the Black Blade, the source of their power was sealed away."

Godslayer's Greatsword: "Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh."

Black Flame Ritual: "The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers."

Black Flame Protection: "The Apostles were all embraced by the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the black flame was their armor within."

Scouring Black Flame: "The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost."

Godskin Swaddling Cloth: "The Gloam-Eyed Queen cradles newborn apostles swaddled in this cloth. Soon they will grow to become the death of the gods."

To summarize, we know that the Gloam-Eyed Queen was an Empyrean chosen by "the Fingers" (it is interesting to note that it does not specify whether she was chosen by the Two Fingers or Three Fingers) who led the Godskin Apostles and was eventually defeated by Maliketh. She also wielded a godkilling black flame, which lost its potency after Maliketh sealed away Destined Death.

As for Melina:

Blade of Calling: "Dagger given to one who set out on a journey to fulfill her duty long ago. The power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." (note: i'm assuming this was Melina's dagger because she uses it as an NPC summon during the fight against Morgott)

Aaaaaaaaaand I'm fairly certain that that's it.

In case you hadn't already guessed, I propose that Melina is the true identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. For one, consider the following line of dialogue from the Frenzied Flame ending:

"Lord of Frenzied Flame... I will seek you, as far as you may travel... To deliver you what is yours. Destined Death."

Metal. This is also significant because it shows Melina opening her left eye, which we never see at any other point in the game. The eye is of course a murky, "gloamy" color, as other's have pointed out before.

Given that we don't exactly know what the criteria is for a person to become an Empyrean, we don't really have any other evidence or clues to go off of, so Melina is the most reasonable choice for the role.

"But wait," you may say, "why does Melina talk as though her only purpose is to burn the Erdtree if she's the Gloam-Eyed Queen?"

I'm so glad you asked, random voice in my head.

The timeline would follow as such (speculation ahead):

Melina is the first daughter of Godfrey and Marika (more on this later). She's born fairly early during the conquest of the Lands Between, possibly even before the conclusion of the War of the Giants. As such, Marika has her trained in combat and incantations from a young age to help take down her enemies (Melina in-game has strikingly similar animations to the Black Knife Assassins, indicating to me that she received her training from the same source). Melina receives her training/mentorship directly from Malekith, the original wielder of the godslaying black flame.

When the Golden Order is established, Marika plucks the Rune of Death (Destined Death) and gifts is to Melina who goes on to serve as Marika's personal assassin (killing enemy gods and the like). In the interrim, Marika bears the twin omens, Morgott and Mohg, but all is right in the world while Godfrey is around. That all changes when Godfrey goes off to conquer the rest of Limgrave, and Marika gives birth to baby Godwyn

Melina returns home after a mission to find that her younger brothers have been thrown into the sewers. Naturally, being a good sister, she takes issue with this and confronts Marika about it. Marika dismisses her with a speech about how they don't need the omens anymore because she has a "proper heir" now. Melina storms out and begins talking amongst the other members of the Queen's Blades (proto-Black Knife Assassins name from @catcas22). Melina goes throughout the Lands Between recruiting from groups that have been ostracized by the Golden Order (Drake Knights, Crucible Knights, omens, and the like). These soldiers rebrand themselves as "the Godslayers" and swear loyalty to Melina.

The final recruit Melina needs is someone to hold off her own shadow while she goes after Marika (assuming that she has a shadow because I think all empyreans have them? anyway). For this job, Melina recruits Vargram, the Raging Wolf. Vargram was one of the first Tarnished, and aspired to be the shadow of an Empyrean (Raging Wolf Armor). I cast him in this role specifically because he wields the Godslayer's Greatsword in-game. Could be coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidence in Souls games.

Anyway, point being that the Godslayers and Melina march on Leyndell and demand that Marika surrender, so as to avoid unnecessary casualties. Marika, being Marika, absolutely refuses and sends out Maliketh to deal with the self-titled "Blackflame Rebellion." The battle ends with Vargram barely escaping with his life, Melina losing an eye, and Maliketh taking the Rune of Death and sealing it within himself.

Furthermore, Godfrey is banished from the Lands Between after returning from his final conquest, as Marika judges that he has too close of a connection to the Crucible. Also the fact that, based on his pre-fight dialogue, Godfrey had quite a close connection with his Omen children.

This whole chain of events would explain why Melina is not mentioned by any NPC in-game. She's been dead for so long and Marika has a good enough propaganda engine (her PR guy is called "the All Knowing" for a reason) that she is only remembered as "The Gloam-Eyed Queen." The only NPC we ever meet who would've known her personally, we unceremoniously murder for the Volcano Manor before we can talk to. In the aftermath of the Rebellion, many of the Godslayers lose their way, having forgotten the reason for their fight against Marika, and eventually devolve into the Godskin Nobles and Apostles that we fight in-game.

Random Thoughts that Don't Fit in the Main Theory:

Melina may have been the child of Radagon and Marika, rather than Marika and Godfrey. Don't like this one, personally, for the implications if nothing else, but anyway. For one, her name fits the convention of the Haligtree twins better than the convention of Godfrey's kids. Furthermore, there are three types of butterflies in Elden Ring: the Nascent Butterfly (Miquella), the Aeonian Butterfly (Malenia), and the Smoldering Butterfly (which is described as eternally burning). One theory posits that the Smoldering Butterfly represents Melina because she is called the "kindling maiden" and is an Empyrean like the Twins.

Melina was likely the one who planted the idea in Ranni's head of the Night of the Black Knives. The original plan would have been that Ranni kill Marika with the other half of the cursemark, thus granting Ranni her freedom and satisfying Melina's revenge. However, Ranni instead uses it on Godwyn, one of the few people Melina desperately wanted to keep safe.

Playlists for those who are interested:

Melina's internal conflict/character arc: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2ObmoqE0FSmehCPSiZgcNU?si=97e1b1c5cc6b4f37

The main events of the Blackflame Rebellion, courtesy of @catcas22: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7IRpa8iQV0Fqf9bvzUEwQ0?si=44f877dc2a544752

[elden-ring-item-descriptions]

Black Flame's Protection

A black flame incantation of the Godskin Apostles.

Summons black fire within, increasing physical damage negation. However, sacred flasks and other such forms of HP restoration are impaired.

The Apostles were all embraced by the Gloam-Eyed Queen, and the black flame was their armor within.

[maxwell-entropy]

...Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh

[redzombie]

Commission for @risingmoon336

The Gloam-Eyed Queen

[space-blue]

Melina, Messmer and the Gloam Eyed Queen.

Disclaimer : this is not my theory. I saw it in a buried youtube comment and it rings so damn true I want you all to see it! From this guy, in this video.

OK so I was watching a lore video and disagreeing with a lot of it. Good stuff though, and the comments were fun. As I scrolled, I saw this, which blew my socks away and is definitely my personal take now! (the comment is edited for readability)

Melina is a daughter to Marika and Radagon. This is confirmed as she’s represented by a butterfly. The butterflies we can find in game all represent the children of Marika and Radagon.

Nascent butterfly represents Miquella, Aeonian butterfly represents Malenia, Smouldering butterfly represents Melina. And then in the dlc we’re introduced to Messmer and Black Pyreflies.

I like to believe that the children of Marika and Radagon come in twos. First came the twins Melina and Messmer, and then came Miquella and Malenia. The later share a contrasting theme, Miquella is cursed with eternal youth while Malenia is cursed with Scarlet Rot which caused her to rapidly decay, symbolizing old age and death.

And then we have Melina and Messmer who both share the theme of fire. Messmer has his own flame, a flame which is notably different from any other pyromancy in the game, his fire is more red and more aggressive. He is able to share his fire with his followers, his fire knights who cast incantations of Messmer’s flame. Then when we kill Messmer, we obtain his flame as a physical item.

Now Melina’s flame was black flame, and in contrast to Messmer’s flame which could burn away all physical things, Melina’s black flame could burn metaphysical things (being burned by black flame does hp damage because it’s burning your very soul) and just like Messmer, Melina was able to pass on her black flame power to her own ‘knights’ the Godskins.

And so Messmer went on to use his flame to burn the enemies his mother pointed him at, where as Melina desired to burn the things that she could, she wanted to burn the Erdtree.

Marika couldn’t risk Melina tearing down everything she had worked for, so she had Maliketh confront Melina and defeat her. Maliketh then took Melina’s black flame just as we take Messmer’s flame, and he converted it into destined death, giving Maliketh sole control over the only thing that can kill the soul, thus truly killing someone once and for all.

(Note, Maliketh didn’t have destined death when he defeated Melina, which is why she’s still around, he killed her, but couldn’t get rid of her for good, nor did he need to once he took her power away.)

So when we meet Melina, she doesn’t know who she is or what her purpose is, but in time, she ultimately arrives at the same conclusion once again, she wants to burn the Erdtree, even without her black flame, she’s still the same person. We can then see to her wishes and use her to burn the Erdtree OR we can spare her and burn the Erdtree with the flame of frenzy.

And then in the flame of frenzy ending, we see Melina take on a new form, her original form, the form of The Gloam-Eyed Queen. Why has she reverted to this old form?

Because we kill Maliketh and unleash destined death, thus returning Melina’s black flame power to her.

The idea of Melina and Messmer being twins is backed up further by their association with the serpents. Messmer’s association with the serpents is obvious, where as Melina’s connection relies on the theory of her being the Gloam-Eyed Queen, where she’d then be associated with the Godskins, and we know the Godskins are associated with serpents.

My own musings...

What if Maliketh defeated Melina/the Gloam Eyed Queen, but let her be. Deafeated doesn't mean killed. It's possible she was burnt and bodiless because Messmer destroyed her. Marika already makes him do her dirty deeds with his subjugation of the shadowland, isn't it possible he requested he burn his sister so she could better control her as a spirit?

Things that don't really gel : why would Melina be "queen" of anything. Where would she have ruled? If she's an empyrean, as we know she was, where is her shadow bound beast, and more importantly, why wasn't Messmer? We know both Miquella and Malenia have no shadows (as far as we can tell) but were also both Empyreans despite the curse.

Perhaps it's because Melina inherited Grace, while Messmer didn't.

Perhaps the flames aren't the curse, but only the serpent inside of him. Making him uneligible, not only for grace, but also for empyrean status.

Now that I think about it, there's NOTHING to support this, but it's possible that Melina could have been the queen Marika puts in charge of all the shadowlands while she's off with Messmer in the Lands Between. There is a lot of death there. Maliketh and Messmer could have come for her together, Messmer burning her/returning her to Marika to control (and use later on).

[dragon-communion]

Alright so I have an insane crack theory about who Melina is, why she is the way she is, and her connection to Messmer.

I am almost 100% sure the Black Pyrefly and the Smoldering Butterfly use the same lineart, which is an even stronger connection than Miquella and Malenia's butterflies. What confirmed the Smoldering Butterfly for me is that we can find one(1) instance of them at the Forge right before we talk to Melina for the last time.

Also, item descriptions.

Smoldering Butterfly:

An eternally burning butterfly found near wildfires and elsewhere. Material used for crafting items. Serves as the kindling for a number of items.

Black Pyrefly:

Fiery butterfly with black cinder wings. Material used for crafting items. Flies in war-torn lands that have been scoured by Messmer's flame. They burn in dark and slender ribbons of fire.

I don't know enough about Messmer yet to draw conclusions from his butterfly, but Melina is the Kindling Maiden so that's fairly open and shut.

Considering these butterflies are basically the Exact Same Thing, and Melina and Messmer seem to have very similar fire-related curses, I'm looking forward to learning more about him. My current thoughts are:

Melina is burned and bodiless. By whom and why?

My initial thought was that since the Erdtree is also burned and bodiless (Leyndell is covered in ash, the Erdtree is a glowing ghost that drips no dew), she must've succeeded halfway once and then was Stopped Somehow. Her soul has to burn so the "soul" of the Erdtree can burn too, finishing the job. Her mother textually gave her this task inside the Erdtree, which can only be Marika.

With the addition of the DLC and Messmer, now I think she's part of a set. Both Melina and Messmer were destined to burn the Erdtree in some form, specifically with black flames. Messmer rejected that fate. Melina didn't. Messmer went on crusade for his mother to protect her interests- Melina acquired a whole bunch of snake-adjacent followers in the Godskins, and went on her own crusade against the Erdtree.

Marika objected to that and sicced Maliketh on her.

Then, around the time of the Shattering, Marika reconsidered her previous judgement- of all her children, Messmer and Melina were the only ones equipped to destroy the Golden Order, and Melina actually tried to do it. And since death was sealed, true death is impossible and Melina was still lingering around somewhere. Possibly in the Erdtree where all souls go.

Melina gets cut loose for Round 2: Kill the Gods electric boogaloo. She can't remember who or what she is, but clearly Marika had enough faith in Melina's utter conviction that Death should run indiscriminate to bank on her trying again, even bodiless and amnesiac. Or, perhaps, it's simply fate.

That gives me some very interesting ideas about how Melina could fit into Messmer and Marika's dynamic, because Messmer supported Marika in every way and Melina objected so strongly to the idea of eternal life that she got burned alive by Maliketh.

It'd be very, very interesting if it wasn't just Maliketh though. She was burned. Maliketh uses beast incantations, and only acquired blackflame after taking it from Melina. No flames of his own. So what fire did that?

Maybe Messmer killed his younger sister for his mother.

[littlebambdraws]

The Dark Flame Queen 

2 Days before Shadow Of The Erdtree

[sialiaaaa]

idk if it's entirely lore consistent but im happy accepting the dlc as answering most of my melina questions

so the lucy headcanon is:

- melina and messmer are marika's second- and first-born respectively

- both were cursed by the Fell God with fire in the ways that are evident in-game (messmer's flame, melina's kindling nature)

- melina's purpose being "given to [her] by [her] mother" refers to how her mother's actions got her cursed. she may even have been born "burnt and bodiless".

- the Gloam-Eyed Queen is a title or outer god influence that Melina inherited/has/whatever (it never comes up but there's no other satisfying explanation for the purple eye so idk)

- last crackpot theory: messmer was born with the fell god's curse and melina was born with the gloam-eyed queen's. as part of marika's plan to destroy the golden order (and to stop the GEQ) she burned melina with messmer's flame, leaving her burnt and bodiless, sealing her eye, and giving her her purpose as kindling

im reasonably certain i could ruin these theories with some evidence somewhere so if that happens ill mentally revise, but for now it makes me feel better about the lack of melina info

[facts-i-just-made-up]

Who is the Gloam Eyed Queen?

Seriously nobody seems to have suggested that "gloam eyed" means "closed eye." I think Messmer and Melina are the Gloam Eyed Queen's offspring, and I think she is likely a snake who married Plasidusax.

Oh wait this is to the Fact blog not my Elden Ring blog. Uh...

The Gloam Eyed Queen was Jackie Onassis because she really liked that one Radiohead song.

[mimocrocodilelol]

Marika’s offspring: first generation

[thatboreddrake]

Okay, bare with me on this one, because I am operating on a grand total of like, two lines of dialogue and a dream: a dream of finally getting a solid-ish number on the Elden Ring Timeline!

So, the first line of dialogue, which Ranni delivers during the cutscene for the Age of Stars ending:

Now cometh the age of the stars. A thousand year voyage under the wisdom of the Moon (emphasis added)

Fine, vague, poetic.

The second line, delivered by Miquella during the fight with Promised Consort Radahn if the player is hit by the grab attack:

"I promise you, a thousand-year voyage guided by compassion."

Now, once is vague, but twice just might mean something. Could it be metaphorical for "this is gonna be a long time"? PROBABLY BUT WHO CARES!

This brings me to my first main point: we have an official time-stamp on how often ages and gods cycle in the Lands Between, presumably. This means that this is a semi-regular phenomenon which could be looked for upon its arrival. Or perhaps, this time of transition is marked by visitors:

It is said that when Oracle Envoys appear playing their pipes, they do so to herald the arrival of a new god, or age.

Anyway, this allows me to slap together a somewhat coherent timeline of events for Elden Ring (effing finally):

The age we will start with is the Age of Dragons, led by Placidusax as Elden Lord (Remembrance of the Dragonlord) with Uhl, the Fire Giant, as the vessel of the Fell God and centered on the power of the Crucible (blatant speculation but its headcanon at this point). In the last few hundred years of the Age of the Crucible, the Hornsent begin to focus their efforts on producing a viable Empyrean to ascend to godhood for the next age. Side note, but this would also be when the denizens of the Eternal Cities were working on their project with the Lord of Night.

Anyway, through one way or another, Marika is chosen by the Fingers to serve as the Greater Will's vessel in the Lands Between after her village is butchered by the Potentates. This is also approximately when a proto-Radagon enters the scene through Empyrean mitosis (Marika severed her desire for order after the death of her family as per the Minor Erdtree incantation). For a time, Marika plays along with the Hornsent, if only to establish her base of power.

Her first stop is at the Eternal Cities, where she attempts to convince the Nox to join with her in the upcoming war against the Fire Giants. The Nox reject her upcoming divinity in favor of their Lord of Night, killing proto-Radagon with the Fingerslayer Blade as a symbol of their rejection. The Greater Will does not stand for this insolence, and sends the Malformed Star Astel to devour their sky and cast them beneath the earth.

Marika then allies with the berserker warlord Hoarah Loux and begins her assault on the Fire Giants of the Mountaintops. After all, their flame would be the one thing that could threaten the Erdtree during her reign. She manages to slay Uhl in battle, and shunts proto-Radagon's soul into his body, thus birthing Radagon as a proper Lord. However, at this point, Marika is diverted from her mission by the First War of the Dragons.

Emboldened by the defeat of Placidusax's god, Bayle the Dread leads his brood of drakes in a direct assault on Farum Azula. To counteract this threat, Placidusax sends the Ancient Dragon Florissax to instruct their erstwhile human allies in the practice of Dragon Communion. Among these, the greatest knight and leader of their order was Theodorix, a troll freed from the Fire Giants during Marika's initial assault. It is during this war that Marika and Radagon bear the kindling twins, Messmer and Melina.

Where Messmer fights on the front lines alongside Radagon and Godfrey, Melina instead takes up tutelage under Maliketh, Marika's Black Blade. After the war is over, and Placidusax has had three of his heads removed, he sees that the age of the dragons has come to a close and moves Farum Azula outside of time to await the return of his god.

Keeping their momentum, Marika and her forces carry on to complete their destruction of the Fire Giants, realize that the flame cannot be put out, and leave a nameless giant in charge of tending the forge. At this point, the time of ascension arrives, and Marika ascends to godhood using Radagon as her Lord catalyst. However, afraid of exposing Radagon's true nature to their followers, Marika instead takes Godfrey as the First Elden Lord, ushering in the Age of Plenty (Blessed Dew Talisman).

With her seat of power established, Marika dispatches her champions to complete their conquest of the Lands Between. Godfrey goes south to Limgrave to do battle with the Storm Lord and the inhabitants of the Weeping Peninsula. Radagon also goes south, but stops in the swamps of Liurnia to challenge the kingdom of sorcerers, who have been united under the rule of one calling herself the Full Moon Empyrean. Messmer, meanwhile, travels back to Belurat to exact vengeance against the Hornsent for their treatment of the shamans. It was this last expedition that was closest to Queen Marika's heart, and thus were they accorded the greatest share of golden grace of any of the Erdtree's armies.

In the ensuing 700 years or so, things proceed as normal. Messmer slaughters the Divine Beasts and burns the country to ashes. Godfrey's conquest of Limgrave nears its conclusion and he sets his eyes towards the Caelid Wilds. Radagon has fought two wars in Liurnia, finally forging an alliance with the House of Caria through his marriage to Rennala. Beneath all this, an old god conspires to put its own Empyrean on the throne.

Per Prince of Death canon (it is canon to me!), Melina is selected as an Empyrean vessel by the Deathbird who pushes her towards rebellion by exposing the injustices perpetrated under Marika's rule. Melina's breaking point is when Marika abandons her own children, the twin Omens Mohg and Morgott, for the sake of keeping up appearances (or so it seems). Taking the moniker of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Melina marches to Leyndell to cast Marika down from her throne and slay the Elden Beast with black fire.

This rebellion is stopped by Maliketh's timely intervention. He bests his former pupil in combat and, under Marika's orders, seals the Destined Death which gives her flame its deadly bite. It is at this time that the Land of Shadow becomes Shadowed, as Marika fears how Messmer may respond when he discovers that his sister has "died" in a rebellion against their mother. However, Marika's heart is not of stone. She sees anew that which had driven her daughter to such desperate measures, and vows to reexamine the fundamental tenets of the Golden Order.

Remembering what happened to the last civilization to deny the Greater Will, however, Marika banishes Godfrey and his Tarnished warriors from the Lands Between. Should another star come to punish the land, she would not have her beloved caught in the blast zone. Thus ends the Age of Plenty; Marika plucks the very concept of true death from the Elden Ring and the blessings of the Erdtree slowly begin to dry up.

Here, the Ancient Dragon Gransseax sees an opportunity to restore the Ancient Dragons to primacy in the Lands Between and assaults the very walls of Leyndell itself. However, he did not account for the tenacity of humankind, nor the power of Godfrey's son, Godwyn. Godwyn leads Marika's order to victory in this Second War of the Dragons, forging an alliance with the Ancient Dragon Fortissax.

Seeking to keep Marika loyal, the Greater Will recalls Radagon to serve as Elden Lord in Leyndell, threatening his family with true death at the hand of the Black Blade should he refuse. Together, Marika and Radagon usher a new thousand years of history, an Age of Order.

Towards the final quarter of this new age (fully guestimating here), Marika sees that she is running out of time to find a solution to the cycling of ages and gods. Conspiring with her step-daughter Ranni, she plots to use a fragment of Destined Death to sever both herself and Radagon from the Greater Will's control, if only to free them both from the curse of immortality. However, plagued by internal conflict and mistrust, Ranni takes this opportunity to free herself from the machinations of Manus Celes, a Two Fingers serving its own god. Marika is distraught as, rather than severing her own fate, she is instead left to deal with the aftermath of the death of her beloved son, Godwyn.

In a final act of desperation, seeking to end the cycle once and for all, Marika takes up her hammer and shatters the Elden Ring, that which represents order itself. Aghast at her actions, Radagon joins her inside the Erdtree, sealing the entrance using an aberrant sorcery to create a barrier of impenetrable thorns. He sought to repair the damage done to the Elden Ring, but erecting the barrier bled him nearly dry. Seeking to protect its last hope of maintaining control, the Elden Beast fuses Marika and Radagon into one and stuffs the shattered fragments of the Elden Ring into the gaping wound in their side. There, the fused, fractured deity would hang for hundreds of years, until the time for ascension came again, and the envoys arrived once more to herald the arrival of a new lord.

[elden-ring-item-descriptions]

Godskin Swaddling Cloth

Sacred cloth of the Godskin Apostles, made from supple skin sewn together.

Successive attacks restore HP.

The Gloam-Eyed Queen cradles newborn apostles swaddled in this cloth. Soon they will grow to become the death of the gods.