#elden ring geq

[asklesbianonceler]

Metyr, The Gloam-Eyed Queen, and The Nox

Lore, item, and speculation analysis. Looking at coincidences and theories a bit closer below the cut.

This is a little more disjointed than my last analysis.

@dykeishheart Replied to your post: I would be curious to know if you think anything in particular about the finger ruins of Rhia and Dheo being shaped just like the godslayer incantation insignia. I haven't seen any people mention it before but I was almost wondering if it's a false thread, like maybe it isn't meant to look like that intentionally bc nothing in Ymir/Metyr quest uses or mentions black flame or the gloam-eyed queen. Unless we interpret Metyr's pink gazing eye as 'gloam' (twilight)

I got this reply and said "yeah, I'll finally get into this!" So thank you!!

I've mentioned vaguely having thoughts on The GEQ/Metyr connections as well as Metyr's connection to the Nox but never got into any of it concretely. I know this specific reply isn't saying Metyr and the GEQ are connected beyond this but I've seen it A LOT and I've wanted to talk about it so it's a good excuse!

You can scroll down to my "Actual Interpretation" header if you want to skip over other's theories and a brief GEQ summary

I want to start by giving an overview on the points I've seen floating around that bring up visual similarities between Metyr and the GEQ so we have a basis for this.

The pattern on Metyr's face, the fingerprint, is similar to both the shape of the godslayer incantations as well as, as user dykeishheart pointed out, the above ground finger ruins

Metyr's tail fingers are in a twist, similar to the helix on the godslayer greatsword.

The godslayer greatsword has a swirling, fingerprint-like pattern on the beginning of the blade before it breaks into a twist

The dominula cape has similar patterns to the incantation as well as the finger sorcery symbols

Jolan and Anna's armor of night, has another similar fingerprint/godslayer-like symbol on the front

My hesitancy with addressing this in detail is that I don't want people to think I'm telling them they're wrong or coming off as argumentative. This is simply my take on the theory. But we're no strangers to characters being associated with the GEQ

So without further adieu, with the points I'll be contesting laid out, here are my thoughts on why Metyr is not connected to the GEQ.

GEQ basics:

We know the GEQ had her own two fingers, was an Empyrean, and was a direct timeline competition to Marika. It seems that, to the Greater Will, they were both potential candidates vying for Elden Lord, each trying to unite the lands between, and possibly the land of shadow, to the GWs plan. It is unclear if at this time the fingers were already unsound and giving baseless messages. I personally do not believe so as these were likely the first sets of two fingers to be bestowed upon Empyreans and still in their early history. It would also make sense that the GW would want false or unfit gods killed off before it's new plan is enacted.

The GEQ controlled destined death, a key aspect of the Elden Ring and one that would be incredibly dangerous for Marika who sought godhood. Thus she and Malekith went to war against her and her Godskins

She raised her godksin from birth, turning the dead flesh of unnamed, and unimportant gods into her children- via the godskin swaddling cloth, also directly connecting her to motherhood.

The meaning of Gloam is roughly synonymous with evening, dusk, twilight, and crepuscule, a time of day characterized by sunset- a blueish to orange/sometimes purple sky. We could also interpret this as "coming to an end" the setting of the sun, the absence of light, or gold. (making her a direct foil to Marika)

Her and her apostles are associated with Black, obsidian, and a deep purple gemstone

My first question about this theory is, what is the theory specifically? That Metyr IS the GEQ or that the GEQ was a follower/champion of Metyr/sanctioned by Metyr?

ON TO

MY ACTUAL INTERPRETATIONS:

My initial thought on the godslayer seal/symbol was always that of inverted fire. A fire devoid of warmth or life, the opposite of those wielded by others in Elden Ring. This is still my interpretation. The Stone set in the middle of the seal, to me, also do not seem intentional enough for me to connect it to Metyr. Had it been anything but black I would be more inclined to give this more weight. Metyr's eye is red/orangeish, bearing an odd crossed separation down its iris. I believe there are too many similar swirling, round patterns in other incantations for this to seem concretely intentional. The Frenzy Flame, Dragon communion, and others all have a swirling in the center. The other thing setting this symbol apart from a fingerprint is the symbols between each ring.

As far as the finger ruins shape, to me they almost feel like sites of large meteor crashes, further suggested by the falling star beast. And Metyr herself is a falling star. Their shape to me feels like a trail of something hitting the ground and settling. I believe it says the lampreys aren't from the land of shadow as well but I could be wrong. They feel very alien and touched by outer presence. I think their fingerprint line shape also feels like the ripples of something crashing there.

Metyr is also a shockingly developed god in comparison to the Elden Beast, so much so that I cannot see her being or sanctioning The GEQ. As I got into in my Ymir Analysis post, Metyr is given strong characterization and emotion. She is loyal and subservient to the GW to the end. Even when she is abandoned she remains true to the purpose it gave her, grieving her corrupt children, waiting, alone, and growing resentful- but only to the point of physical violence via her thrashing and wielding of her head as a weapon. Her built up anger, as her remembrance weapon states, manifests in crushing blows of her head as a weapon. Her utmost rage is literally her beating her head against the ground in frustration, to the detriment of those around her and likely herself. She is described as a kowtower to the GW and seemingly deals with far too much of her own grief, self doubt, and obligation to come up with her own agenda or enact another agenda herself/take any matters into her own hands to the extent of the GEQ. We have also seen the result of her direct connection with others via Ymir and seeing as this is the first/only time we see finger sorcery learned from her it's unlikely anyone else ever made contact to this extent. Her connection to the GEQ is that she birthed the fingers that told the GEQ what to do.

Perhaps, as many others, the GEQ was enamored by the teachings of her two fingers and took inspiration from its form. This wouldn't be uncommon. We see fingerprints in Frenzy flame items, Nox items, and the fingerprint shield- which is an item I would like to get into a lot more in a moment. But to connect her that closely to Metyr feels incredibly out of character for Metyr. Metyr is also largely connected to int builds and sorcery. Never Faith. Even the High Priest Hat boosts both Int and Arcane, not touching upon Faith. I also believe the lack of godskins in the land of shadow is incredibly telling. If the GEQ had connections to Metyr there would surely be something mentioning her blackflame or godskins in the DLC

Both are also associated with motherhood, but to the point that i think it's the opposite of something that connects them narratively. The GEQ has such a specific and unique way of creating her children/warriors, far too different from Metyr's

As far as the connection to her tail fingers goes, there are also countless other connections to helixes being associated with the divine, a main one being the hornsent. Her sword also doesn't have the classic spinal look down the center of the blade that both the Sacred relic sword and fingerslayer blade do.

In terms of connecting dominula to the godskin, that is entirely possible, but this just comes back to my feelings on the godslayer symbol. Connecting anything at all to the finger sorcery symbol would be baseless. This design takes far too much inspiration from the Carian and Raya Lucarian sigils to not be something Ymir created for his own sorceries, thus unique to the land of shadow and his studying of Metyr.

Metyr also seems far too connected to the stars for me to associate her with someone who's name means dusk- a time of day characterized by sunlight still being in the sky albeit fading. You really can't see stars during this time and certainly not enough for them to seem bright. She is far more associated with pure night than evening. Great segway.

The Nox and the Fingerprints and a Slayed God

Like I wanted GEQ lore in the dlc. I wanted to know more about her. But I truly think she's dead :(

I think sometimes we're just looking for GEQs so much that maybe we're overlooking some smaller revelations from the Metyr quest.

Specifically in regards to the Nox's reason for banishment and the fingerslayer blade.

Jolan and Anna are nox swordhands of Night. Their armor describes the swordhands as being born deep underground and their armor bears the fingerprint marking- actually described as a fingerprint in the description this time. But they don't wear this armor because they are in Metyr/Ymir's service. They arrived at the land of shadow wearing this armor that is designed to keep them in the dark and there were more than just two of them. We find the armor on a corpse in a body bag in bonny gaol, next to multiple other bodybags. But we can say for sure there were at least three swordhands here. And they must have had a purpose here for them to be the only Nox in the lands of shadow.

And this got me thinking. What other items specifically reference fingerprints and at first it just seems like frenzy items which seemed like a dead end. But there's one specific item that although related to frenzy, references a time before that- The fingerprint stone shield which is "part of the tomb of an ancient god---- the very seeds from which frenzy first started" So similar to Godwyn's death, a death created an unforeseen consequence, but who was this god? Who killed him? Well, aside from the GEQ, there is one other group of people known for knowing how to kill gods. The Nox. And they had a reason to do so. The Fingerslayer blade is born of a corpse and bears a similar helix and spinal design to the sacred relic sword, implying it is from the body of a god. The sword of a vassal/god that is capable of killing another. Perhaps this was the god the Nox killed in order to create the blade. Perhaps they did not kill this god themselves and merely robbed it's grave and defiled the body by rending the fingerslayer blade from it. The recurring fingerprint motif on the armor of the swordhands and on the tomb is an interesting connection. Regardless, the Nox did not want to be governed by the GW's influence, instead they followed the stars. They were the original GW haters and they wanted to kill one of its vassals and harm the GW. Which vassal did they intend to kill? Ranni uses it on her two fingers but perhaps it was made for Metyr, the source of the GW's messages that they hated so much. They were never able to use it. It's creation led them to be banished and stripped of the stars at the hands of the GW. Swordstress armor states, " Now they live under a false night sky, in eternal anticipation of their liege. Of the coming age of the stars. And their lord of night"

This would make sense as to why the swordhands are in the land of shadow. They were looking for Metyr. And it would also give us some food for thought on Jolan and Anna, Anna perhaps being the one who still believed in their original purpose and Jolan, having disagreed with her. Jolan instead believing she has found what the Nox were awaiting, the return of their stars and their lord of night. Her infatuation with stars, saying Ymir is her shining star, and doing as he asks without question, knowing he sees fate in the stars, heavily implies this is what she believes. Perhaps she too seeks redemption for what she's done as a swordhands, her weak heart leading her to forsake her original goal and seeking her fate in Ymir's stars.

Time to yap, because I understand I'm probably wrong about the ancient god connection bit:

Yapping: This ancient god to Nox connection is just theorizing. We could even theorize that the ancient god mentioned in the fingerprint shield is the GEQs grave and that maybe the Nox didn't kill this god and merely looted the grave, but the timeline on that might be odd. I can't say for sure. Further we can ask who's fingers were the three fingers, this ancient god's? GEQs? Or are they even fingers? Are they merely an apparition of something we will accept messages from? If Marika put the nomadic merchants in that hole in the ground it would also imply she put the tomb down there that held a dead god. A god she killed maybe? Really seems like that's where she puts shit she wants to forget about... The shunning grounds and all that.

Misc images that may be relevant!

[raviollies]

Messmer's fight having Radagon's leitmotif...my delusional crackpot theory is that he is a prototype of Marika attempting to expel curses from her body; so he's not a child in the traditional way...just a sapling...but it wasn't enough

Only later was she able to leave behind Radagon, fully divest herself of this burden and become a god, like Miquella did with St.Trina

[katyspersonal]

Queen of Lothric 🤝 Gloam-Eyed Queen mysterious female characters of high status and one missable statue of them that might be not even them as a ref with Fromsoft leaving enough clues towards them being and NOT being pre-existing characters (Gwynevere and Melina respectively)

Well Japanese script kinda confirmed Queen of Lothric is her own character by saying she was "even compared with (the) Goddess of fertility" but it isn't a common knowledge at all gfhfdnn

[irithylldancer]

Melina wields this dagger, but is it possible this description doesn't describe her? From what we understand, using oneself as kindling isn't unique to Melina (or Messmer). We can infer that Vyke's maiden was going to sacrifice herself as kindling, but he used his own body instead with the Frenzied Flame. Could this dagger have been found by Melina after the fact? And she found her purpose to become a maiden this way?

The second line, this is what makes people think she's connected to the Gloam Eyed Queen, but to me it sounds like the path of the Tarnished.

To walk alongside flame: travel with your maiden

Meet the road of Destined Death: claim the death rune back from Maliketh

I'm still thinking about the origins of Melina, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the current interpretations of her.

Editing to add: Blade of Calling... did this dagger somehow reach out to her? Or it attracts those with the potential to serve as Maidens?

And her last line in Flame of Frenzied ending: maybe destined death is the only way to kill a true lord of frenzied flame? Midra and Vyke were incomplete in that regards.

[do-it-for-radagon]

[warm up doodle] Stabat mater dolorosa

Stuck between two mothers as he is

[maranull]

Melina: Is spelled out that she's Marika daughter. Is spelled out that she's kind. Is spelled out that she cares about the Lands Between. Is spelled out who she is, what she stands for and for what she fucking burns herself to death.

The fandom: We know nothing about this mysterious woman. She's St Trina. She's the GlOaM-eYeD QuEeN. She's everything but what the fucking game tells us she is.

Why do y'all insist so much in completely erasing this specific character's motivations and values??

I'm done. Bye.

[snnumntik]

there is no game that makes me feel like I'm the only one who's right about it than elden ring

[recusantchicky]

what is good

[surelyspacejunk]

Messmer & Melina Speculation PART 2

Warning: some SOTE spoilers but mostly base game speculation

I've been playing around with different scenarios of what Messmer and Melina's lineage could be and here they are. I'm pretty sure that they were sired between a union of Marika and an Empyrean, due to each 'godborn' demigod having a butterfly.

Upon wondering who their parents could be, I stumbled into a pretty interesting theory for the Gloam-Eyed Queen and wanted to play around with it.

So so far, here are the possible scenarios for the fire siblings' parentage:

Marika had children with two different god/empyreans making Melina and Messmer step-siblings.

Marika had children with with the Gloam-Eyed Queen (aka GEQ) making Melina and Messmer direct siblings with fire and abyssal traits.

Marika had children with a god/empyrean who ISN'T the GEQ. There are plenty of other gods with fire/snake imagery such as the Serpent or even the Fire Giants (you can see snakes on the giant chalice.) They could even be unnamed.

At first I thought scenario 3 was unlikely, but the more I thought about it the more compelling it got. Why would Melina have all the traits that evoke the imagery of the of the GEQ if the GEQ wasn't her mother? The answer would be simple if Melina simply became the GEQ herself.

If I were to entertain this theory, it would mean that Melina was born an empyrean, waged war against her mother, lost, 'died', only to wake up ages later as your amnesiac spectral guide. It could also tie into Messmer's exile neatly if Marika feared a child from another empyrean could one day usurp her, regardless of his loyalty. Perhaps she assumes that consummating with non-empyreans (Renalla) would have no chance of creating new empyreans. However, Ranni is born, which makes Radagon leave his Carian family behind to keep the power within the family, leading to the births of Miquella and Malenia. Defanging Renalla and the Carians was a bonus, though peace was still kept by granting his Carian children 'demigod-hood' (even though they had it to begin with.)

Even though I think scenario 1 or 2 are more likely than 3, I kind of love the mess it would imply. It also gives some narrative sense to Marika as a disaster mother, stumbling into one mistake after another and hurting her children all the way.

Melina being both Marika's daughter and the GEQ brings up a lot of fun scenarios to play with but poses some problems as well. The biggest hurdle for this theory would imply that Destined Death had not been removed from the Elden Ring before the conflict.

I think this is the shakier part of this theory but it isn't completely impossible if Melina is Marika's oldest daughter. We aren't fully aware what the sequence of events were when the rune was removed and Marika seems to be quite good at omitting pieces of history she does not want in the Lands Between.

The conjection of Marika's relation with her kids would also have assume 5D chess on her part because she was also already sending away Godfrey away. Was she already planning for him and his warriors to rebel against the Fingers back then or was that merely insurance once she doubted their guidance?

That said, this is all speculation so take what you will.

I wonder if any of this makes any sense. No I will not make a lore reddit account I refuse.

[mitsybubbles]

Oh you can find Fire’s Deadly Sin at the windmill village huh?

[blaiddfailcam]

If Messmer is Marika's firstborn, then I highly doubt he'd be Miquella and Malenia's missing triplet given there would be a whole-ass Godwyn, Morgott, and Mohg between them (plus the Carians).

And if he was Miquella and Malenia's triplet, then the Land of Shadow likely would have had to been split from the Lands Between following Radagon and Marika's union, which was fairly recent in the chronology of the Lands Between.

Hmmm.

[asklesbianonceler]

This Metyr is the gloam-eyed queen shit is getting so out of hand on Twitter. Like please actually analyze her first. She is so compelling and complete and does not need to be roped into this for her to have complex and important meaning. I cannot write another essay I'm not strong enough.

[ratcoon]

𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘎𝘭𝘰𝘢𝘮-𝘌𝘺𝘦𝘥 𝘘𝘶𝘦𝘦𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘢𝘥𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘯𝘦𝘸𝘣𝘰𝘳𝘯 𝘢𝘱𝘰𝘴𝘵𝘭𝘦𝘴 𝘴𝘸𝘢𝘥𝘥𝘭𝘦𝘥 𝘪𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘰𝘵𝘩.

[katyspersonal]

Chat help me gdhgjghg I have an idea but I think I am not able to quite untangle it

1) Godskins are connected with snakes: the tails of Nobles and ELONGATION of Apostles, as well as their weapon featuring serpentine motif

2) Them and GEQ are also connected to wind: their whirlwind attacks and her tornado-looking sword, multiply this by 3 if you believe the statue in Farum Azula where we access Destined Death is of her

3) Long before Rykard rediscovered it, Gelmir used to be owned by Hexers that worshipped "serpent god" (Eiglay) and brought it sacrifices, she was once killed by a wind spear before

4) There had to be SOME "gods" that GEQ had to slay since her fire got reputation for it, but that could not have been anyone from Marika's family since Godwyn was the FIRST Demigod to die and that happened long after GEQ's defeat

5) GEQ was an Empyrean chosen by the Two Fingers, Destined Death is "forbidden shadow plucked out of Golden Order upon its creation", and we are told that with birth of Erdtree and gold "so shadow, too, was born"! Maliketh only got control of Destined Death after the defeat of GEQ by him, and Destined Death was the part of OG Elden Ring. Marika's Rune was too, so she claimed that symbol, not created it (caged divinity much), and so Death was claimed by GEQ. Either, Marika allowed Death to lay around and came to regret it when that other Empyrean got chosen and picked it up... or she knew who was playing the second fiddle from the start and relied on GEQ to be her ally, but then she wasn't.

6) Serpent is seen as a traitor of the Erdtree, also something about original sin (not to be confused with cardinal sin... unless?)

7) God-Slaying Flame, God-Devouring Serpent.. themes against "gods". Also Eiglay's skin is found in Shadow Realm albeit smaller than in her temple

Like uh...

WHAT IF Gloam-Eyed Queen was an ally to Marika, trusted as her OG blade before Maliketh became that? Marika later took charge of who gets immortality and who dies for good via Maliketh owning Death later, but why not earlier, especially if she removed Death from Elden Ring as soon as she took it? Right, because there was someone else to carry this burden!

So, GEQ would be slaying those other "gods" off the face of the Lands Between, cleaning the path for Marika as THE new God, ensuring her political power and new world to prosper? There were 'old Gods' mentioned, frikin Deathbirds are called Gods, who knows what Outer Gods made appearance, who knows who ascended in other ways (like 'Malenia, Goddess of Rot' but not with Rot kinda thing).

But then, maybe, when the time came and GEQ "killed" Eiglay (not really, she can't die apparently), she decided "well, actually... 👀" and turned on path of blasphemy (as in against Erdtree's God, Marika) first? The "could not turn back after what she had seen" kind of change? So, the connection to snakes was not there from the start but something she acquired! Maybe, in fact, what transpired did make Eiglay 'God-devouring serpent' and not just some serpent God waiting for sacrifices?

...or maybe it was simpler, and her link with snakes WAS there from the beginning. In either case, in the timeline GEQ would have to betray before Marika killed Fell God, because... well, GEQ had god-slaying Flame and unless Marika was dumb enough to just let Death lay around until someone picked it, GEQ was her ally on that, right? But doesn't seem like anything of a kind was involved, Marika did it herself 🤔

Knowing myself I definitely had forgotten some piece of the puzzle, but I really start to wonder whether "serpent is seen as traitor of the Erdtree" started with GEQ and not like, Messmer? Especially since his Base Serpent nature was a secret but for sure everyone knew of Maliketh's victory over GEQ? Just some thoughts?

[rare-ringofsacrifice]

Thinking about her... (the Gloam-eyed Queen) and all of the echoes/ripples of her

[blasphemousclaw]

you talked about radahn the other day, and while he's not my main elden ring focus i still find him very fascinating. one thing I'd like to mention is that radahn didn't really seem to have affiliations apart from his own thing in caelid. his faction used fire, which is against the erdtree and prior to the shattering warranted exile, and they use sorceries as opposed to GO incantations. as you said there are also abductor virgins, with the symbolism of snakes and them also considered erdtree traitors. if you go to redmane castle before the radahn festival you'll find both a misbegotten warrior and a crucible knight, beings hated by the regime, defending the castle. even jerren comments on them as if they were a part of his forces afterwards. godskin followers exist alongside his soldiers in his own divine tower, whereas everywhere else redmanes are shown in conflict with the environment. the tower even houses GEQ's sword.

(notably, godskins show up at 3 respective locations important to the carian siblings, but that's another discussion)

in previous versions of the game lore, radahn was known as the giant slayer - that is no longer likely to be cannon given the change of the timeline since, but it is something to consider when you see how much he idolizes godfrey currently. personally i think he may have held beliefs in the primordial crucible, which would explain his adoration for godfrey, as the crucible knights followed the old elden lord, and the variety of creatures employed in his army.

in addition, there's no proof of this, but i like to think tanith's crucible knight was sent by radahn, perhaps after rykard got devoured, for her protection, as rykard himself doesn't really have crucible ties.

I can’t believe it never occurred to me to connect these dots, I think you’re absolutely spot on that Radahn has ties to the crucible! Since the crucible knights directly served Godfrey, it makes perfect sense that Radahn would want to make use of them too. You’ve summed up everything really well, but I have one more potential connection to add:

There are only three colosseums in the game, and one of them is in Caelid. The description for the ritual sword talisman implies that the colosseums are “arenas where ritual combat took place” which occurred during the age of Godfrey, but “died out by the age of King Consort Radagon.”

The crucible knights actually have a connection to ritual combat as well—Ordovis’s sword is nearly identical to the ritual sword talisman…

…so I think it’s meant to be the same sword, which was used in ritual combat. This links Godfrey’s knights with the colosseums.

I wonder if Radahn sought out the colosseum when he relocated to Caelid? There isn’t one in Radahn’s native Liurnia, since Godfrey never conquered Liurnia. It certainly seems like Radahn would be into the idea of ritual combat, especially if it’s an old practice related to Godfrey… just a thought!

Anyway, all of these details that you mentioned emphasize that Radahn isn’t necessarily loyal to the current erdtree regime (as a lot of people seem to assume), and that emulating Godfrey matters much more to him than religious affiliation.

also I LOVE the theory that Radahn sent the crucible knight for Tanith!!!