#GOT meta

[babylonfelldown]

I saw a tiktok about Jon and Theon and it made me remember how fuking insane their dynamic is

They're broken mirrors of each other: both of them just want the starks to see them as family, they want to feel wanted, they envy and hate each other.

Theon is a trueborn son of a great house, an heir even, but at the same time he's treated as a squire and a ward when convenient, (he helps Ned and Robb), he's also seen as a hostage and a threat, never quite trustworthy. He says repeatedly that he never felt wellcome by the Starks and that the only one to have any affection for him was Robb. Theon dreams to be wed to Sansa, not because he loves her, but because them he would be a son for Ned. He envies Jon because even being a bastard he's loved by Ned (ln a way neither Ned or his actual father loved him), his sibilings (all of them) love him, even if Lady Stark doesn't like him, he is family in Theon's eyes.

Jon is a bastard, he's a shame that must remain hidden, it doesn't matter how much Ned or his sibilings love him, he will never be a true Stark in the eyes of westerosi society. He is trusted but his loyality is always at question, Jon is a threat to Robb's claim in many peoples eyes, like he wants his brothers birthright, and the worst of it all is: he does. He desperately wants to be a trueborn son, but he loves Robb deeply, more than he could ever wish to be legitimate. He envies Theon because he is a trueborn son, he is an heir, he will get to have a wife and children of his own, legitimate children that won't be called names.

Truely insane dynamic of hatred and envy that culminates with both of them trying to one up each other on everything.

[sad-endings-suck]

Me: *is sad*

Me: *Remembers that both Dany and Sandor are horse girls.*

Me: *is less sad*

[bbygirl-aemond]

When Dragons Disobey Their Riders

Hi all! I wanted to comment on something that recurs in both Fire and Blood and A Song of Ice and Fire: Instances of dragons blatantly disobeying their riders, often even after multiple attempts by their riders to correct them. If you look at the context of the scenes where this occurs, I think it actually does a lot to show us the level of intelligence and agency that dragons have. Most importantly, in all of the scenes I'm about to discuss, the dragon is not disobeying their rider out of malevolent intent. They are actually trying to protect their rider, and think that their rider is making a request that would put them in danger.

Our first mention of this is with Alysanne Targaryen and her dragon Silverwing, in Fire and Blood. Alysanne is up North, by the Wall, and attempts three separate times to direct Silverwing north of the wall, but Silverwing refuses each time. Some people think Silverwing was wary of the cold, but I think this is unlikely since otherwise she would have refused to come that far north entirely. I think it's much more likely that Silverwing knew some freaky magic was going on beyond the Wall, and that it could be very dangerous for her rider.

Our second mention of this is with Area Targaryen and her dragon Balerion, in Fire and Blood. On her first ride with Balerion, Aerea disappeared for over a year, and both rider and dragon returned severely injured. Aerea's illness in particular was just straight up terrifying and very gorey, and she eventually died from it. Because of this, it's suspected that Balerion actually took Aerea to Old Valyria and that they encountered some freaky magic there. At this point in time, Aerea was trying to escape and go home, and there's a popular theory that Balerion, doing his best to obey her request, took her to the place he thought of as his home.

Our third mention of this is with Lucerys Velaryon and his dragon Arrax, in Season 1 Episode 10 of HotD. When dragon and rider are being pursued by a much bigger dragon, Lucerys is unable to calm Arrax down, and he attacks, which eventually leads to both of their deaths. Arrax is quite young, and he very obviously did this because he was feeling cornered and threatened, and felt like he had to defend himself and his rider.

Our fourth mention of this is with Aemond Targaryen and his dragon Vhagar, in the same episode, right after Arrax's attack. If you go back and look at GIFs of what this attack actually presented as, note the side the attack came from. Arrax flames Vhagar's entire head, and he does it from her left side-- the same side where her rider is blind, specifically because Arrax's rider blinded her rider. It's no wonder Vhagar retaliated; she felt that her rider had been attacked in a very vulnerable place by the same person who made her rider vulnerable and never demonstrated remorse for doing so.

Our fifth and final mention of this is with Daenerys Targaryen and her dragon Drogon, in the A Song of Ice and Fire series. For those of you who watched Game of Thrones, I'm talking about the scene in Mereen where Drogon rescues her from the assassination attempt in the fighting pits. Daenerys wants to remain in Mereen and continue to try to handle the conflict there, but Drogon ignores her commands and flies far off into the wilderness. As far as Drogon's concerned, Mereen isn't safe for Daenerys, so why should she want to stay there?

I think these instances all point to dragons being intelligent, but not enough to really understand politics--that, or they don't care. Vhagar doesn't understand or care that killing Arrax and Lucerys will cause a war; just as Drogon doesn't understand or care that Daenerys wants to remain in Mereen to rule. They prioritize their riders' wellbeing and demonstrate that they don't always think their riders know best. This makes a ton of sense especially for the older, more experienced dragons, who probably had to make more decisions during combat in order to keep their riders alive rather than just waiting for commands.

[ansheofthevalley]

Cersei and Dany have more parallels than Cersei and Sansa yet Sansa always gets compared to Cersei whilst Dany gets to stand on her own :/

(Sorry for taking ages to answer this.)

The way I see it, GRRM actually wants us to see and compare the three. To see them, in a way, as a triad:

It's no secret that George loves to use the rule of three (I talk about it a little bit here.) The way I see it when it comes to Cersei/Dæny/Sansa is to compare their ruling styles, especially since they're the strongest candidates to wield power by the end of the series (I'm talking exclusively about book canon, but we can take show canon into consideration since they are the last three big female characters wielding power by the final season.)

At first, Cersei and Dæny are foils, in a way. Cersei calls herself Queen (which she is, first Queen Regent/Dowager Queen, by being Robert's wife, then Queen Mother by being Joffrey and Tommen's mother). Dæny, however, in the beginning, rejects the title of Queen, saying that she's a Khaleesi. As the series progresses (specifically since she's -at least to her knowledge- the last Targaryen), she uses both titles: rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and Khaleesi. So, this would be where the contrast stops working when it comes to these two ladies: they both call themselves Queen, but most importantly, they seek that title because they're motivated by power and the desire to have the Iron Throne. Sure, their motivations are not exactly the same, but they can be boiled down to one word: survival.

(I've spoken about characters motivated by power in the quest for the Iron Throne and what the narrative does to them in show canon, but I can't find the posts, so I'm sorry.)

Now, what part does Sansa play in all of this? Well, we're told in the first book that she's meant to be Queen. After all, she was promised to the prince of the Seven Kingdoms. And she wants to be Queen... until Joffrey orders the execution of Ned. Then, we notice a change in Sansa: she's not interested in the games of intrigue, in the subterfuge. It can all be encapsulated in this quote: "If I am ever Queen, I'll make them love me."

Cersei thinks the best way to rule is to make the people fear you more than they could ever fear the enemy. And that's precisely what she does during her time in power. So, she rules by fear.

Dæny is benevolent to those suffering injustice. But she's also severe regarding those she disagrees with or thinks have interests that go against hers. She is not forgiving. In my eyes, she also has a fatal flaw - she's not interested in the day-to-day tasks that come with being a ruler, as shown in her stint in Meereen. She also relies on her dragons and the Targaryen legacy to instill fear in those who don't want to submit to her. She rules by good faith when it comes to the marginalized and outpowering the powerful with her dragons and armies. So, she rules by power and, to some extent, fear.

Sansa is benevolent with people. She knows what is expected of her as a Lady while in King's Landing. In the Eyrie, she learns to run a household and the day-to-day tasks that come with running a Great Keep like the Eyrie. But that's not all she learns throughout the series. She understands the importance of politics and how to exercise that power. She also understands people's importance; let them be Lords, Ladies, Common Folk, or bastards. She sees their value regarding of station. Also, since the end of the first book, she doesn't get fooled by the nobility; she's more distrustful of their true intentions, and that distrust makes her read each person she encounters more carefully, which, in time, will make her a keen politician (all in all, and this is what sets her apart from Cersei and Dæny, she's not actively seeking to rule. And, when it comes to the rule of three, the last link is the one that differs from the other two and, for that reason, is the successful one.) Sansa is compassionate with those deserving of compassion and sometimes with those who are not, but she's never cruel like Dæny can be or vengeful like Cersei is. This is not to say that she bends to the will of others because she doesn't. She stopped doing it back in King's Landing, starting with small acts of defiance. In the Eyrie, she's on a journey to finding her voice. So, she rules by compassion and observation.

Now, how does the rule of three apply in this instance? Let's first define what the "rule of three" is:

The rule of threes is a writing principle that suggests that three elements, such as events or characters, are more humorous, satisfying, and effective than other numbers. Audiences of texts in this format are also more likely to retain the information conveyed to them. This is because having three entities minimizes the amount of information needed to create the pattern, combining both brevity and rhythm.

By giving us different styles of ruling/approaches to power in threes, GRRM is making sure those ways stick with the readers. He's making it known that the approaches to power and ruling are important for the endgame: this factor will contribute to who ends up in power at the end of the story.

One could argue that the use of the rule of three in comparing Cersei, Dæny, and Sansa is rhetoric: he's comparing three different ruling styles, and we, as the readers, can decide who might be better suited for the title of Queen based on the rhetoric the characters present. (I speak about the difference between Dæny and Sansa - and Jon - as figures of authority here and here. Keep in mind that those metas explore the dynamics of the characters in the show.)

Cersei doesn't give a shit about anyone but herself and her family. She rules with an iron fist and doesn't hesitate to annihilate anyone threatening her power. She rules alone.

Dæny cares about people and uses her power (her dragons) to achieve some of her more altruistic goals, but at the end of the day, those goals are not entirely altruistic since they also serve her. She also uses that power to intimidate and cause fear. To top it all off, she relies heavily on the power that her dragons represent, even though she tries to use politics as a more subtle way to solve problems, but she realizes that if she wants to change the world as she wishes, she needs brute force. She needs her dragons. She uses both power and fear in any situation, whether it is good or bad. She, too, rules alone, even though she has people giving her counsel. (Though that can be explained with Targaryen exceptionalism, in a way. But that's a whole other thing, and this has gotten too long already)

Sansa, on the other hand, is more surgical in her approach. She sees the value in relationships and working together. She sees the value of people and the importance of day-to-day tasks. She relies on her powers of observation and what she's learned in court to solve problems. She rules by understanding: by understanding that she has to work together with people in areas she's lacking and by understanding the potential of each person around her. She rules by working together with those around her.

In conclusion, Cersei and Sansa have always been foils to each other, and that's been set from the get-go. You could say the same about Cersei and Dæny, too. But, as the series progresses, the lines dividing Cersei's style of ruling from Dæny's start to blur, leaving this triad somewhat like this:

[princesssszzzz]

Fire & Blood (HOTD) // A Game of Thrones (GOT) Imagery & Parallels

Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts." "Arya learns to fight in the Braavosi water dancer style with Needle." (AGOT, Arya II)

“Baela’s dragon, the slender pale green Moondancer would soon be large enough to bear the girl upon her back." “... a pale pink hatchling with black horns and crest, Rhaena named her Morning.” (Fire and Blood, 432 & 593)

“[Baela] is wild, willful, and wanton, as we feared,” (Fire and Blood, 648)

“[Baela] was as wild and willful a young woman as any in the realm” (Fire and Blood, 645)

“[Arya’s] long horsey face got the stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful.” (AGOT, Sansa I)

“And Arya … he missed her....so fierce and willful.” (AGOT, Jon III)

“Septa Amarys, who had been given charge of her religious and moral instruction, despaired of her, and even Septon Eustace could not seem to curb her wild ways.” (Fire and Blood, 646)

“Rhaena’s egg had hatched a broken thing that died within hours of emerging from the egg” (Fire and Blood, 432-3)

“Lady was dead” (ASOS, Sansa IV)

“Rhaena enjoyed a life of comfort and privilege, with maids brushing her hair and drawing her baths. Singers composed odes to her beauty, and knights jousted for her favor (Fire and Blood)

“She loved King's Landing; the pageantry of the court, the high lords and ladies in their velvets and silks and gemstones, the great city with all its people.” (AGOT, Sansa III)

“It would please me if he was not so old he could not give me children, nor so fat that he would crush me when we are abed. So long as he is kind and gentle and noble, I know that I shall love him.” (Fire and Blood, 649)

“When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong.”(AGOT, Sansa II)

"He's just stupid. He likes to polish helmets and beat on swords with hammers." Arya about the (legitimized bastard) Gendry

"You fool, you thrice-damned fool. If I dared, I would have your bloody head off." Unwin Peake to (legitimized bastard) Alyn

“Baela's dragon brought down our late king. There are many in the realm who will not have forgotten that. Crown her and we will rip all the old wounds open once again”(Fire and Blood)

[kadarakey]

Some of the best character analysis of Sansa I’ve come across 🩵🩵🩵

[rainhadaenerys]

A while back, when House of the Dragon came out and people realized that Dany's theme was playing every time they were talking about the prince that was promised, many people tried to claim that it wasn't Dany's theme, it was a Targaryen/dragons theme. So I've been wanting for some time to write about where exactly the "Prince that was promised" theme comes from, and prove that it comes from a Dany theme, not a theme about the Targaryens in general or about the dragons.

To begin, let's clarify which is the dragons/Targaryen theme: it's the theme "Mother of Dragons". More especifically, it's the famous "aa-AAAAHH" that appears almost every time we see the dragons (there's also a version of the aa-AAAH that can be heard very softly every time the dragon eggs appear). You can listen to it from 0:00 to 0:40 in the following video:

Meanwhile, Dany's theme is "Love in the Eyes". There are several little parts in the theme that develop into other themes throughout the show, all about Dany. One of the themes that was derived from Love in the Eyes is the theme "Breaker of Chains". I've been listening to Dany's theme "Love in the Eyes" to find out exactly which part of it Breaker of Chains comes from, and I'm pretty sure I found it.

The part of Love in the Eyes that originates the theme Breaker of Chains is the part from 1:00 to 1:20. Specifically, the wind instrument that is playing (there are also percussion and strings playing, but the part that originates the "Breaker of Chains" theme is the part of the wind instrument). Listen to "Love in the Eyes" from 1:00 to 1:20, and then listen to Breaker of Chains from 1:42 to 2:35.

As you can see, the theme "Breaker of Chains" comes from that specific part of "Love in the Eyes". And given that it comes from "Love in the eyes", this means that "Breaker of Chains" is indeed a theme specific to Dany, not a dragon/Targaryen theme.

Now watch the clips where they talk about Aegon's dream in House of the Dragon: the scene where Viserys talks about Aegon's dream, and the scene where Rhaenyra reads the dagger with the prince that was promised prophecy.

In both scenes, the theme playing is "Breaker of Chains", which is distinct from the theme of the dragons. The theme of the dragons does play together with the "Breaker of Chains" theme in the first scene, but in the second scene, when Rhaenyra reads the dagger ("from my blood come the prince that was promised and his will be the song of ice and fire"), only Dany's theme "Breaker of Chains" plays.

To me, this makes it very clear that the music of both scenes is referring to Dany, not just the Targaryens or the Dragons in general, because it's not just a general dragon/Targaryen theme that plays, it also plays a theme that is specific to Dany, "Breaker of Chains", that comes from "Love in the Eyes".

[mayberobbsa]

probably not that interesting to anyone else, and too small a thing, but it's quite intriguing for me

the frey girl robb's supposed to marry, roslin, shared a slight physical similarity to sansa... she had chestnut hair, which is a mix of brown-red (A Storm of Swords, p. 712). she was also gentle natured and had a talent for music- which can also be seen as similarities to sansa, who was gentle and had a love for music and romantic things

in a way, he betrayed sansa twice- once when he refused to exchange jamie for her, and once in although unknowingly, going for someone who looked the opposite of her instead of someone with a similar feature and doing so lead to his demise

[whateverthedragonswant]

The Iron Islands Was Never Getting Independence - 6x09 & 8x02 Parallels

So I was rewatching GoT for reasons and I came across this 6x09 scene (love that episode!!!) and I already kind of knew that they were setting up Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame in this episode, setting them up for their final chapter, but now rewatching it, it blows me away just how obvious it was how things were going to pan out in the end. That Dany would be the final boss. That it was going to revolve around her, Jon, and Sansa. All that.

This scene is one of those obvious instances.

Theon and Yara have always been mirrors for Jon and Sansa since Theon and Yara reunited after Ramsay. For their sibling relationship as well as the power pair they present and represent for their home/family/kingom. In this 6x09 scene, it's no different.

A lot of people have made the point that Dany granted the Iron Islands their independence because Yara/Theon asked while she didn't grant the North to Sansa/Jon because Sansa demanded. They couldn't be more wrong. It's all right here in the dialogue:

Dany: "You've brought us a hundred ships from the Iron Fleet with men to sail them. In return I expect you'll want me to support your claim to the throne of the Iron Islands?" - here nothing about independence is brought up yet but here it makes the dynamic clear: they would need Dany's support for the claim to the Salt Throne, meaning 1) that "kingship" is less than the king/queen of the 7K and it's only allowed to continue for a certain individual if the ruler of the 7K allows it, and 2) she is not coming from a mindset of granting them independence or acquiescing to their request

Theon: "Not my claim. Hers."

Dany: "Oh, what's wrong with you?" - for a woman who wants to rule the 7K in a place she has been told that no other Queen has ruled in (this is right before Cersei takes the IT), it's odd that instead of asking "why is that?" or "oh? interesting" or even being happy about another woman in a ruling position that's granted less than hers, it's an odd question to ask what's wrong with Theon -- I think the writers did this purposely to show a subtle difference between Dany's rhetoric that she consistently sells and how she actually is while also implying she intends to be the only Queen in the 7K, right down to the sub-monarchies (if that's a word)

Theon: "I'm not fit to rule."

Tyrion: "We can agree upon that at least."

Dany: "Has the Iron Islands ever had a queen before?" - oh, suddenly she's interested to hear this fact, why? because it now helps turn up the flames of hope for her destiny so to speak

Yara: "No more than Westeros."

Theon: "Our uncle Euron returned home after a long absence. He murdered our father and took the Salt Throne from Yara. He would've murdered us if we stayed." - what's interesting here is not only are Euron and Dany paralleled this season but also Theon/Yara are the antithesis of Viserys/Dany considering that's what happened to them, the latter two's father was killed in the rebellion/the IT being taken and they would have been killed had they not fled; but it also proves again that Theon/Yara are Jon/Sansa mirrors because Ned was murdered, the North was taken from Bran (aka the future rightful king after the vote in 8x06) by Theon and then it was taken by Ramsay, Bran & Rickon had to flee and then Sansa and Theon had to flee Ramsay

Dany: "Lord Tyrion tells me your father was a terrible king."

Yara: "You and I have that in common." - it's true, they do, but I'm also highlighting this line because it comes back around in 8x02

Dany: "We do. And both murdered by a usurper as well. Will their ships be enough?" - Dany immediately switches gears here - she sees the commonality they have, something she always uses when spreading her rhetoric to gain allies and subjects followers, but switches to "hey, do we have enough or no?" Meaning depending on the answer is what depends on her agreeing to ally with Theon and Yara

Tyrion: "With the former Masters' fleet, possibly. Barely. There are more than a hundred ships in the Iron Fleet." - if this line doesn't have Davos' line from 7x02 "If they break through the wall, do we have enough men to fight them?" & Jon bringing Dany and her dragons North to fight the Night King vibes all over it...

Theon: "There are. And Euron is building more. He's going to offer them to you."

Dany: "So why shouldn't I wait for him?" - this is exactly the same type of attitude we see displayed in 7x03-7x06; after everything she's just heard about Euron so far, no hesitation, "if he's got more ships why shouldn't I wait for him?"; a lot of people defend Dany's reluctance to help the North because of Jon's outrageous claims of the dead walking, she doesn't know who he is right away, and he should bow to her because the North is rightfully hers - but this line right here, it shows she only has one goal in mind and it's not to come to save people from a tyrant or to instill the rightful ruler back on the IT so she can leave the world better than she found it for her people - this is before the reception she gets in Westeros and then the North - it's RIGHT HERE

Theon: "The Iron Fleet isn't all he's bringing. He also wants to give you--"

Yara: "His big cock I think he said. Euron's offer is also an offer of marriage, you see. You won't get one without the other." - we see in 6x10 that Dany is more than well aware that she most likely will have to marry to secure an alliance over in Westeros, the when being the only question besides who - she knew this from what happened in Mereen and how she was going to have to marry to keep the peace before all hell broke loose, she knows this

Dany: "And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands?" - so now she's considering their offer, while she says this almost teasingly to Yara, we know that she knows she has to marry at some point and if she can secure the whole Iron Fleet, why wouldn't she? Especially since her single-minded focus is the IT? Because she doesn't want to marry aka she doesn't want to share power (something we see in season 8 after Jon tells her who he really is and how hard she works to keep him in that subservient dynamic by forbidding him from telling anyone) which is also how you can tell that throne room scene dialogue in 8x06 was rewritten in the 11th hour at Emilia's request (something she has gone on record admitting to), it was meant to be Dance of the Dragons 2.0 and it was coming down to one of them prevailing over the other

Yara: "I never demand but I'm up for anything really."

Theon: "He murdered our father and would have murdered us. He'll murder you as soon as he has what he wants." - not only are we getting another Aerys/Viserys/Dany reminder here but now Dany has her justification for not entertaining Euron's would-be proposal and allying herself to Yara and Theon despite their lower number of ships (I don't blame her here, I'm just calling a spade a spade)

Tyrion: "The Seven Kingdoms."

Theon: "All of them."

Dany: "And you don't want the Seven Kingdoms?" - exactly what she has been worried about - she's never wanted to share them so she's making doubly sure

Theon: "Your ancestors defeated ours. They took the Iron Islands, we ask you to give them back." - as Dany will remind us and Jon in 7x03, Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targaryen, the original conqueror she's been trying to be the second coming of - this not only has the North vibes due to that parallel but because it also links to 8x02

Dany: "And that's all?" - sounds like here it's simple for Dany, right? Wrong...

Yara: "We'd like you to help us murder an uncle or two who don't think a woman's fit to rule." - another line echoed in 8x02

Dany: "Reasonable." - about killing the uncle

Tyrion: "What if everyone starts demanding their independence?" - not only should Tyrion not be asking Dany this in the presence of Yara/Theon who have not been made allies officially yet, it's obvious they're having him point this out because it's going to lead to what happens in 8x02

Dany: "She's not demanding. She's asking. The others are free to ask as well." - 'which doesn't mean they'll get it' is the end of that sentence

Dany: "Our fathers were evil men. All of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We're not going to do that. We're going to leave the world better than we found it." - more Dany rhetoric

Dany: "You will support my claim as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms." THIS IS HER ANSWER RIGHT HERE - no independence for you Iron Islands, you're still a sub-monarchy but part of my 7K so no you don't get them back

Dany: "No more reaving, roving, raiding, or raping." - she reaffirms that with these conditions (which I agree with her here but the point is she's making it clear what she expects aka no independence)

Yara: "That's our way of life." - you mean like Dany is about to uproot Westerosi life as we know it in 8x05 and want to continue to do?

Dany: "No more." - "We can't build the new world with men loyal to the one we have." - 8x06

Yara: "No more." - having no choice, Yara agrees because at this point the other Lannisters don't care who sits on the Salt Throne (since they still have Tommen at this point) as long as they get any ships they need so it won't matter if Theon and Yara get murdered while Euron takes over/rules the Iron Islands - Yara knows they're not getting independence which is exactly why this little nugget isn't mentioned in her speech in 8x06 before Arya tells her to shut up about killing Jon

*Yara lifts her arm to Dany, after some confusion, Dany embraces her arm and they shake on it* (aka Yara and Theon get to live another day and hopefully have some dragon power backing them and they have a new 7K Queen)

And then, 8x02:

Dany: "I thought you and I were on the verge of agreement before. About Ser Jaime."

Sansa: "Brienne has been loyal to me. Always. I trust her more than anyone."

Dany: "I wish I could have that kind of faith in my advisors."

Sansa: "Tyrion is a good man. He was never anything but decent towards me."

Dany: "I didn't ask him to be my Hand simply because he was good. I asked him to be my Hand because he was good and intelligent and ruthless when he had to be. He never should've trusted Cersei."

Sansa: "You never should've either."

Dany: "I thought he knew his sister."

Sansa: "Families are complicated." (and here come the parallels to the 6x09 conversation)

Dany: "Ours certainly have been."

Sansa: "A sad thing to have in common."

Dany: "We have other things in common. We've both known what it is to lead people who aren't inclined to accept a woman's rule. And we've both done a damn good job of it from what I can tell."

(I skipped the whole Jon part of the convo)

Sansa: "I should have thanked you, the moment you arrived. That was a mistake." *she leans forward*

Dany *leans forward and covers Sansa's hand with hers*: "I'm here because I love your brother. And I trust him. And I know he's true to his word."

(skipping more Jon stuff)

Sansa: "What happens afterwards? We defeat the dead, we destroy Cersei...what happens then?" - Sansa is mentioning the agreement being honored on both sides, both of their enemies defeated, meaning they've given her her terms at that point

Dany: "I take the Iron Throne." - there's that single-minded goal again and what she really plans (she does not intend for any kingdom to secede from her 7K)

Sansa: "What about the North? It was taken from us and we took it back and we said we'd never bow to anyone else again. What about the North?" - here Sansa asks but she also lays down the line on what hers and Jon's mindset is when it comes to the North (and it's made clear by Arya in 8x04 why Jon really bent the knee to Dany in 7x06) and while it's in reference to the Boltons, it was also Theon who took the North first, and of course Aegon back in the day forcing them to bend the knee - so more parallels and just the thing Dany doesn't want to hear

And sure enough:

*Dany doesn't answer but removes her hand* - answer enough which is cemented by Sansa's expression and her sitting back away from Dany when the Maester interrupts them

And the very next scene, they literally have Theon showing up to ask Sansa if he can fight for Winterfell in the Great War. But first:

Theon turns to face Dany as expected, sees Sansa, and then looks at Dany, bending the knee (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)

Theon: "My queen." (aka no independence for you Iron Islands)

Dany: "Your sister?" - basically her saying 'oh crap, did your sister die? I know she was taken captive but did your murderous big cock uncle kill her? Crap, where are my ships? Why am I dealing with you?'

Theon: "She only has a few ships and she couldn't sail them here. So she's sailing them to the Iron Islands instead to take them back in your name." (aka NO INDEPENDENCE FOR YOU, IRON ISLANDS)

Dany: "But why aren't you with her?" (aka my dude, why are you bothering me? Go get me my land back like your faithful sister)

And then Theon gives us the answer we're expecting when he turns to look at Sansa and then asks if he can fight for her home/family. And we know Sansa is grateful, happy, and speechless. We know Dany is shocked, dismayed, sad, and angry that she's not getting that same type of loyalty/love on this side of the Narrow Sea (8x04 convo with Jon).

So basically, anytime someone says "but Dany was going to give the Iron Islands independence, she agreed to it, Sansa was rude", etc, just point them to these two scenes. Back in 6x09 "Battle of the Bastards" (aptly named and not just for the battle or Jon vs Ramsay) where Jon's, Dany's, and Sansa's endgame are all being set up. 6x10 sets up Cersei's, Tyrion's, and even Jaime's (but that's another post).

[eruherdiriel]

Dedra Meero and D*enerys T: Fandom Reactions to Female Villains

Note: This post assumes Dedra and D*ny are villainous characters. You've been warned (twice now). GOT critical, minor spoilers for both shows ahead (characterizations more than plot points). I am not discussing anyone's enjoyment of a character, rather, I'm examining interpretations of villainy and who we root for in a narrative.

I've watched Andor twice, and both times I was struck by how similar Dedra Meero feels to D*ny. So far, however, Dedra's arc is more coherent and the audience seems more united in how it views her, which fascinates me. (I know some are rooting for a redemption arc for Dedra, which I will discuss more later. By definition, that means there's something about her that needs to be redeemed, so I am assuming those folks generally accept her as a villain in her current state.)

Both Dedra and D*ny are women in a man's world who, in order to rise within a corrupt and oppressive system, adopt the brutal tactics of that system. They believe in said system even if it treats them unjustly for being women. Dedra believes that the Empire should be the ultimate power in the universe, that rebels should be rooted out and crushed, and that horrifying torture and manipulation are acceptable actions to achieve the outcome of keeping the Empire in power. D*ny believes in the Targaryen dynasty, that they are rightful rulers of Westeros despite being colonizers, and that dragons (a weapon no one else has, nevermind that the narrative tells us over and over that burning people alive is Not Good) are an acceptable way to achieve her goal of sitting on the Iron Throne.

The fact that they face obstacles and encounter misogyny everywhere rightly stirs in the audience sympathy for them. Syril's obsession with Dedra is terrifying to me, as is Viserys's assault of D*ny. With Dedra, the sympathy generated from these circumstances doesn't seem to outweigh all the heinous things we see her do and make people actively root for her. Meanwhile, D*ny made it through 8 seasons of Thrones with a large cheering squad intact. There's a few reasons why that could be.

Even on a show like Andor, where characters are allowed to be morally messy, Star Wars is an inherently binary, good vs. evil universe. The Rebellion vs. the Empire. The light side of the force vs. the dark side. Thrones lives in the gray. Sometimes that's not the right term, but it's how the audience is told it should see characters. At its worst, Thrones sanitized more villainous characters and dumbed down more heroic ones to keep everyone "gray," thereby oversimplifying and misrepresenting what it means for a character or action to be morally gray. Character motivations were buried to preserve plot twists, which led to confusion among some of the audience over who the ultimate heroes were. Andor shows us Luthen instigating an Empire crackdown and asks audience members to question his methods while also making the case for them. Cassian's trigger finger is ruthless, but how many times does that save his life? Save the life of someone he loves or someone else who will play a key role in the Rebellion?

Andor is also 12 episodes in (of 24 planned); characters are going to complete their arcs a lot faster than characters did on Thrones. That accelerated time line has an effect on fandom engagement, how much time people spend with a character (potentially allowing them to build more sympathy for said character), and how much time they have to transform that character in their mind (headcanons, fanfic, etc., all things I love but can convolute discussions about the original text). We also know less about Dedra than we did about D*ny, and very little about her personal life. Still, Dedra feels human, so don't mistake this for thinking she is a poorly drawn character. She's not.

A word on redemption: For me, Star Wars doesn't have a great track record with successfully completing redemption arcs. I know some people feel differently. But given the quality of Andor season 1, I think this show could do a villain redemption and do it well, but I don't want it to (please hold your tomatoes). It's enough for me that our good guys are doing shady things on behalf of the Rebellion. It's enough for me that the villains have sympathetic qualities. I still want them to be villains. Especially with Andor, the themes and plotlines are so resonant of the challenges we face in the real world that one of the few ways the show maintains the catharsis of entertainment is through good defeating evil. And it's important to me that Dedra stays a villain because there are villainous women in the real world and we need to remember that. It's part of why I was never bothered by the idea that D*ny would be a villain as well.

(I want to acknowledge the role actor's external comments might have had on viewing these two women as villains. I won't go into it too much because it feels a little icky saying I agree with one person's comments about a character they played and not another's, and also because I wish actor/writer/director etc. comments weren't taken so seriously in fandom. Also, I have not combed through every interview the actors have given so I only know the highlights, and I want to be fair to them that maybe their views have changed or they've said contradictory things elsewhere. /Disclaimer. To sum up, Emilia Clarke emphatically stated in post-S8 interviews that she stood by D*ny and "never saw [the ending] coming." Maybe this gives some fans "permission" to feel that way as well. Meanwhile, Denise Gough called her character a fascist [I know almost nothing else about Denise but I LOVE her for this comment.])

[la-pheacienne]

For all that they talk about GRRM being anti-war, anti-monarchy and anti-feudalism, they love neglecting to mention that he’s anti-Catholicism.

Disclaimer: if in any way I come across as agressive, it's not at all directed at you anon, I'm speaking very generally here, thank you for your ask💖

Listen. The sheer notion of "anti-war" is the stupidest of the stupidest political/moral/ethical attitudes that someone could have. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but someone needs to say it. "Anti-war" doesn't mean ANYTHING. Anti-which war exactly? You need to be specific. Not all wars are the same, not all wars are created equal, there are some wars that need to happen, that are fair, and some wars that shouldn't happen. Yes of course, it depends on where you're standing. But it always does, that's life. And of course in every war there are people suffering, but that's life again. If the enemy comes at your doorstep and wants to destroy you and everything you love or if you have been violently evicted from your homeland, what will you say exactly? Hunie I ain't doin' anything about dat cause I'm anti-war? Lol. No. The "anti-war" agenda is only relevant for privileged, white Americans and Europeans thinking they are Americans, who haven't felt threatened once in their life, who haven't lost anything, who don't know anything about human history and think that the solution to every problem on planet earth is peace and love. No.

GRRM definitely isn't anti war. There is no way a person that dedicates decades of his life reading and writing about brave warriors is anti war. Sure he's "anti- war" in the sense that he doesn't particularly fancy going out with a sword decapitating people, but he's not anti war in any fundamental way. And newsflash, none of the fans of these shows/books are. We're literally dedicating years of our lives reading about war and watching war happen and supporting aristocrats that lead their people to war. That's literally the plot of the story. So no, in real life I'm not anti war, and in the ASOIAF universe I'm definitely not anti war. All of my favourite characters are warriors and/or leaders to battle, Jon, Jaime, Dany, Stanis, Brienne. It's exactly the same thing in any fantasy story. Watching a fantasy story about warriors and being anti war is the most idiotic thing you can do. Go watch Gilmore Girls. Unfortunately, people who should have stuck to Gilmore Girls ended up watching GoT because of its popularity, and that's the very reason we have the Anti-Targaryen phenomenon.

The same for anti monarchy. Like, I don't particularly approve of monarchy, my country has no monarchy because we literally chased the monarch away, thank god, and I don't think it's a good model of political structure in any country. That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that Europeans lived with that for centuries. Some monarchs/emperors literally changed history for the better. They conquered, they educated, they revolutionised, they made progress, they broke centuries of tradition. I don't see monarchy, again, through the lense of the privileged American who thinks their country discovered democracy and scorns any other political system because they just know better. No honey you don't, and you didn't discover shit. Magna Carta was created under Monarchy. The Catholicism received it's fatal blow because of a Monarch. Women and bastards gained power and legitimacy because one day a female bastard decided that she could be a better Queen than her brother or her perfect religious female cousin. Cities and schools were created by monarchs. Scientific progress that changed the world was funded by Monarchs. They also did terrible things, they are also responsible for destruction, slavery, misery. But perfectly democratic leaders side eyeing literally every single President of the USA ever also did all of the above. My whole point is, you can be "anti monarchy" if you don't like the way it works, that's fine, I am as well, but if you think that every single Monarch in history was just a "bad person" and you don't acknowledge the value and impact of certain rulers and certain periods of human history then you're simply illiterate. Again, people who think that way somehow ended up watching Game of Thrones, a show about Monarchs, and again, that explains the Targaryen hate. Watching a show that tells the story of Monarchs and Aristocrats doing vile and great/heroic deeds and being "Anti-monarchy"? Sure, you can be, but what is the point of that observation in that context exactly? It makes you look like a fool.

About anti Catholicism. Sure the faith of the seven has clear parallels to the Catholicism, the Great Sparrow was a character that came straight from the Inquisition, the Hightowers are pious little hypocrites that hate women and demonize sex and bastards. The parallel is there. In that particular aspect I do think GRRM consistently shows obsessing over religion as something inherently bad in his universe but it's really not that important because religion is not the focus of the story. Power is. The Hightowers' problem is not that they are religious, even though that makes them even more unlikeable. Their problem is that they are greedy MFs that started a war for nothing and they destroyed an entire realm because they preferred that than to see a ruler with a vagina on the Iron Throne. So it's not about religion exactly, it's about a unfair war (a war motivated by greed and treason) versus a fair war (a war motivated by the need to reclaim what has been taken from you by force and treachery). GRRM is definitely anti Catholicism though, that much is certain, but religion has a secondary role in his universe any way.

[teenagecriminalmastermind]

this thread is excellent and also gave me so many more thoughts

first off, it's a great example that easily described how people who have been abused are at a higher risk of becoming offenders because they have a low set point to begin with - especially aegon.

it was a throwaway line in a later episode, but when Aemond mentions the disgust of his brother taking him to a brothel when he was a pre-teen, there is no way Aegon did that without being introduced to it by someone older and in a position of authority (most likely his father or grandfather).

more likely his father because otto is more religiously conservative, while viserys openly claimed at a point that he and daemon "fucked their way through Flea Bottom" when they were younger.

so while he is an offender, he is very much a victim of sexual abuse himself and is enacting what he has been taught as not just accepted but expected of him - his depravity is absolutely not excusable but it is also learned and not innate, and the way aegon and aemond grow up shows the diathesis stress theory in action.

the theory that mental and physical disorders develop from a genetic or biological predisposition for that illness (diathesis) combined with stressful conditions that play a precipitating or facilitating role.

while aegon may have had a predisposition for sadism that his brother does not, he probably would not have offended had he grown up in a healthy, balanced environment that wasn't physically, emotionally and psychologically abusive and neglectful.

aemond, despite growing up in the same kind of environment, was subject to less abuse by both parents and also most likely did not possess the predisposition to be a sexual sadist. instead, he grew up behaving in a manner that directly fed into his mother's approval, becoming more religiously and socially conservative.

(I could do a complete breakdown of the greens personalities as a result of their upbringings from a clinical standpoint but that would turn into an academic essay lmao)

[daenerysstormreborn]

It really grinds my gears when people try to insist that Jon never really loved Dany because he undeniably canonically loved her even after she torched King’s Landing. This isn’t me reading between the lines or theorizing. It’s in the script of episode 8 which is publicly available.

We all know season 8 was shit and hope the books do things dramatically differently. And I personally think that Emilia and Kitt had poor on-screen chemistry, so they struggled to convey love. But it is unquestionably canon that Jon and Dany loved each other to the end. Jon feels he has nothing left worth living for once she’s dead. He really truly did not want the throne. He was ready to die right along with her. He was going to let Drogon kill him. Honestly it could’ve been an incredibly tragic scene had it been better written and had Jon and Dany shared more screen time with better actor chemistry. Always a Jonerys truther here

[bbygirl-aemond]

Dragon Biology (Part 2): Skull Shapes

Hi everyone! I made a first post HERE where I explained that I wanted to do a breakdown of everything we know about dragon biology and the different variation we have. I just wanted to get into the science of it because I was curious, and I also wanted to see if the biological evidence provided support for any of the popular fan theories about which dragons might be related. As a reminder, here are the hypotheses we'll be investigating as we go along:

Vhagar -> Vermithor

Dreamfyre -> Sunfyre

Dreamfyre -> Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal

Syrax -> Arrax, Vermax, Tyraxes

In that first post, I discussed two aspects of dragon biology: Coloring, and size. Please check that one out first before reading this one, because I'll reference it in my final conclusions section! So let's get into it below the cut:

Dragon Skull Shape

Skull shape wasn't a category I'd really noticed, but the HotD showrunners explicitly said that they designed every dragon to have one of three skull shapes: That of a horse, that of a wolf, and that of a T-rex. As a side note, the easiest way to distinguish between these three is to look at the size of the forehead/nose bridge area, at the top of the head and kind of between the eyes. T-rex is the narrowest, and horse is the flattest/widest, with wolf as a kind of in-between. The jaw shapes are also slightly different, but I find the forehead the easiest way to tell. Also, remember that this describes general shape, and doesn't include any of the dragons' crests and horns, which have a lot more variation.

Let's start with the horse shape, with a very flat, wide space at the top of their heads, and a straight jaw with a more rounded chin. We have confirmation that Syrax is representative of this category:

These are the dragons whose visuals best fit that shape, with a picture of a horse skull for reference. This is interesting, because remember that the theory is that Vermax and Arrax might be Syrax's kids, and their shared skull shapes lend evidence to this theory.

Now let's move onto the wolf shape, with a slightly narrower space between the eyes and a straight, pointy chin:

These are the dragons whose visuals best fit that shape, with a picture of a wolf skull for reference. If you compare it with the T-rex shape below, you'll see that it looks fairly similar but has a few subtle differences; namely, that the top of the head is still flatter.

Finally, let's move onto the T-rex shape, with a very narrow space between the eyes and a more convex, sloping jawline with less emphasis on a super pointy chin. We have confirmation that Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are meant to fit this shape:

(There's no picture of Viserion because I was being picky about the angle but we know he matches his brothers). I also think that Dreamfyre likely has this shape, going mostly off of her jaw. Again, this is interesting because of the theory that Dreamfyre was possibly the parent of Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal. The skull shape and crest situation definitely supports this theory.

There are two other dragons that I think fit this category; they look fairly different from these first three, but that's largely because of the crests along the jaw and forehead, not because of the actual contours of the skull. So let's take a look:

There's obviously still some variation within this category. I grouped Vhagar and Vermithor together because they resemble each other most strongly due to the lack of crests and horns (and also because otherwise the pictures would be too small lmao).

Final Conclusions

Okay so here I'm just going to go through all of the biological evidence we do or don't have for the hypothesis of dragon relations I mentioned at the beginning of this post. Then I'll combine this with any narrative evidence to provide an overall opinion on whether or not I believe each theory.

Vhagar -> Vermithor: Though not every aspect of their coloring is the same, the uniqueness of their scale color I think is cause to support these two being related. Both of these dragons are described as having the same size, which supports the theory. And finally, both dragons have not just the same skull shape, but the same presentation of crests and horns, which is distinct from the other dragons within their skull category. Overall, I think there's a fairly strong amount of biological evidence for this theory. Combined with the narrative evidence, and the fact that the ages line up, which I've discussed here, I firmly stand behind it.

Dreamfyre -> Sunfyre: There is some evidence within coloring (wings, specifically being the same pink color) to support them being related. These dragons are described as having the same size, which supports the theory. We'll have to wait until season two in order to make a determination about Sunfyre's skull shape, since we just have concept art that that's known to sometimes change a lot (think of the official Vhagar concept art, which looks fairly different from in the show). So for now, skull shape is inconclusive. The non-biological evidence for this theory is mainly the -fyre suffix at the ends of their names, as well as the fact that the ages line up just fine. Overall, I'm undecided on this theory, and want to wait until we see more of both dragons in season 2 of HotD.

Dreamfyre -> Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal: Coloring information reaffirms that the three brothers are related. In some ways (wing, eye, and crest color), it points to Dreamfyre possibly being their parent, but not definitively so. As mentioned above, I think size is inconclusive because though Drogon is bigger than Dreamfyre could have been at that age (she's definitively smaller than Balerion, who he's compared to), we don't know if Dreamfyre's size represents her true potential. The evidence behind the skull shape does actually support this theory; they not only share the same skull shape, but the same distinctive patterning of crests and horns along their jawline and likely their forehead. Because of the wing color, and because of just how unique their skull and crest patterns all are, I do lean towards believing this theory.

Syrax -> Arrax, Vermax, Tyraxes: Lastly, coloring doesn't provide positive evidence for Syrax being the parent of Arrax, Vermax or Tyraxes. But it does provide evidence that at least Arrax and Vermax are likely related, and probably as brothers, given what we observed about Dany's dragons. All of these dragons are described as having the same size, which supports the theory. They also have all of the same skull shapes, though Vermax and Arrax don't have the exact same crests that Syrax does (hers are very distinctive). So based on biology alone, I do believe Vermax and Arrax are brothers, and that they're likely Syrax's offspring because of their skull shape. And narratively I think the show has basically confirmed this, with the deliberate mention of Syrax's eggs being considered for baby Visenya in season 1 episode 10 of HotD. So overall, I stand behind this theory.

Hope you guys found this interesting! :)

[daenerysstormborntargaryen]

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

What does this line mean? What are the implications, the message it is trying to send? Is it a better line than the changed one in the show?

These are questions I have been asking myself as of late. Initially, I wanted to explain why I liked the show's version better, but as I thought about what the book's version meant, I started to change my mind

To be honest, the reason why I liked the show's version better for so long was because I thought it was more impactful. By saying "The Lannisters send their regards" rather than just Jaime, it made the Lannisters seem like a unified front, a great House that is not to be fucked with and not just a singular great man. It would send the message that it is not the actions of a singular person but something that will set a precedent for the House as a whole when dealing with, ultimately, people getting in their way.

But then I started thinking about why Tywin would have them say Jaime specifically. I came to two major conclusions:

1) Tywin doesn't care that Jaime is a member of the Kingsguard let alone the Lord Commander, he still wants Jaime to inherit Casterly Rock. Cersei is the Queen, just the thing Tywin wanted her to be, thus he wants to keep her right where she is. Tyrion is the heir of Casterly Rock but Tywin would rather bring the Seven Hells upon Westeros than see Tyrion as the Lord of Casterly Rock. He has always seen Jaime as the heir, his heir. When he made his vows, Tywin was pissed as all hell, at Jaime, at Aerys, at everyone. But then Joffrey set the precedent that members Kingsguard don't have to serve for life with the dismissal of Baristan Selmy, thus opening up the path for Tywin to make his wishes come true.

Several time through the series, we see the song "The Rains of Castamere" used as a threat, a reminder to any and all of what Tywin Lannister is capable of. The ruthless destruction of Houses Reyne and Tarbeck solidifies Tywin's fearsome reputation and I believe the Red Wedding is meant to be Jaime's Castamere. By giving him the responsibility, Tywin is securing Jaime's legacy almost. Already Jaime is well-known for being one of the greatest swordsmen alive, but he needs to be more of a threat, more of a foreboding presence at the back of people's minds than just someone who is pretty handy with a sword. If people believe Jaime capable and willing to do something as horrible as the Red Wedding, what else is he willing to do to protect the realm (or just his family)?

However, similar to Castamere, the Red Wedding is a huge, huge, huge political mistake. It is not a show of power, of skill in battle, of cunning or wit. No, it's a demonstration of brutality. It says to everyone else that the Lannisters will do whatever they want in response to slights, minor or otherwise. The Red Wedding especially does this. Sure, you crushed the Northern rebellion and took out a huge threat to your power, congratulations. Now no one trusts you or respects you or will want to be by your side. They may fall in line out of fear, but fear can only hold people for so long and to such lengths. Tywin os still upset, to his dying day, of the perceived failings of his father. He hated how his bannerman laughed at him, hated how a "whore" wore his mother's jewels and clothing, hated the weakness he saw. But I would argue it is better to be underestimated yet respected than feared yet reviled. When the going gets tough, who will come to Lannister aid after this? After this violation of a sacred law, Guest Right, who would ever want to be on the side of Lannister?

2) This is more of a narrative reason, though I certainly believe Tywin may think similarly, but this line is also a twisting of the knife. Cat let Jaime go and everyone and their mother told her what a horrible idea it was. Now, it's come to bite her in the ass. Had she not released Jaime, I am not entirely sure the Red Wedding would have happened but that is a whole different discussion. Fact of the matter is, she did and now she has to watch her son be murdered in front of her. How could she not blame herself? How could she not blame the Lannisters for being cravens wholly lacking honor? How could she not blame the gods for their cruelty? This line is the cherry on top of the tragedy of the Starks.

While (iirc) Tywin did not know Catelyn was the one who let Jaime go, I believe he thinks he somehow escaped on his own, I do think he would also view it in the same way. As consequence of taking his son, and of letting him slip through their fingers, their lives are forfeit. Yes, when they rebelled their lives were forfeit to begin, but I think Jaime's capture pushed Tywin to such a drastic means of dealing with them.

At his core, Tywin is a petty, vindictive person who values getting his revenge more than actually doing what is best for the Lannister name. True, he may believe this is the best course of action, but that just goes to show what an emotionally-driven, lack of forethought moron Tywin truly is. He is not clever, he is cruel. Do not confuse the two. And, much like every other Lannister, Tywin seems to believe because the Targaryens conquered and kept the peace through fire and blood, he can do whatever violent acts he wishes and history will laud him for it, but he is not a Targaryen, it does not work the same way. Targaryens for centuries were viewed as closer to gods than men, Lannisters never were held in that esteem. All he is doing is dragging the Lannister name through the mud.

One of the things that makes Tywin Lannister notorious in Westeros is told about in the song "The Rains of Castamere," which details how Tywin brought about the end of House Reyne and House Tarbeck, serves several times as a reminder and threat of what Tywin Lannister is capable of ie complete ruthless brutality. It is intended to keep people in line and to keep their noses clean. I believe Tywin wanted to give Jaime a similar reputation.

[satrryeys4eva]

why do most targaryens have mommy or daddy issues sometimes even both LET THEM BREATHE

Incest is a hell of a drug.

(I'd fucked up too if my uncle dad or sister wife were that crazy)

But honestly it's from the fact that because of incest none of the relationships are healthy.

And most women who marry into the trag fam end up dying tragically so they can't raise their kids, or like alicent all of their kids are a product of rape,(men who marry into the fam don't count because their kids take the last name of the dad so they aren't counted as targs)

The Targ's "keep it in the fam" shit also causes unhealthy attachments to form as in the toxic incest relationship of thier parents they see their future .

That's not even counting the fact that they are told their inter lives from ridiculously young ages that any love or care they feel for their fam is inherently romantic attraction because they are targs.

Anyway Freud would have a total field day with them