#For the J and D fans s8 was that

[atopvisenyashill]

What are your thoughts on pol!jon? I’m no fan of j/d but pol!jon feels so out of character and cruel that I really can’t see it

Oof okay that’s an interesting question.

I think there's a lot of elements to the political!jon theory that people tend to just conflate into one big theory similar to how the grand northern conspiracy has some parts that are a little galaxy brained and some stuff that makes perfect sense and has a lot of grounding in the text.

So for anyone who is unaware - I know a lot of my oomfs didn't get into the series until after the show stopped airing - the pol!jon theory came from s7 of the show to explain the absolutely inconsistent and stupid decisions jon makes in s7 and s8. The idea was that, basically, like Torrhen Stark before him, Jon Snow bent the knee to Daenerys at Dragonstone not because he actually wants the North to be tied to the Iron Throne again or because he's loyal to Daenerys but rather because he is attempting to manipulate her; when he realizes that she will not come North to save his people but did cross the Wall to save him he makes the decision to seduce her in order to bring her to the North to defend his people.

Now...a lot of people really dislike this theory. They feel it's too cruel of Jon to do, it's OOC, I've even seen some people say that any sex between them is noncon (which...aight), etc etc. I do understand to a certain point why people think it's out of character for Jon to do this but the thing is...he literally has already done something very similar in canon. Look at his relationship with Ygritte:

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder’s mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. I have no choice, he’d told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play. His body had played the part eagerly enough. His lips on hers, his hand sliding under her doeskin shirt to find a breast, his manhood stiffening when she rubbed her mound against it through their clothes. My vows, he’d thought, remembering the weirwood grove where he had said them, the nine great white trees in a circle, the carved red faces watching, listening. But her fingers were undoing his laces and her tongue was in his mouth and her hand slipped inside his smallclothes and brought him out, and he could not see the weirwoods anymore, only her. She bit his neck and he nuzzled hers, burying his nose in her thick red hair. Lucky, he thought, she is lucky, fire-kissed. “Isn’t that good?” she whispered as she guided him inside her. She was sopping wet down there, and no maiden, that was plain, but Jon did not care. His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple. “Isn’t that sweet?” she said again. “Not so fast, oh, slow, yes, like that. There now, there now, yes, sweet, sweet. You know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. Harder now. Yessss.” A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I’d abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. It need never happen again. He was still a man of the Night’s Watch, and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven.

Now, I don't think this is rape on either side but it's certainly uncomfortable, dubious consent wise, and not meant to be just a straight romantic scene. Ygritte isn't aware - though she does suspect - that Jon hasn't truly joined their side. Ygritte feels he's holding onto his vows out of stubborn pride or perhaps ignorance; she does not suspect he's actually going to betray them, but she can tell he's clearly conflicted over his desertion. Jon, meanwhile, is only having sex with Ygritte to prove he's a true deserter; he is actively manipulating her by playing on her fondness for him and invoking Wildlings customs like bride stealing when they have sex here.

So the idea that political!Jon is out of character doesn't really work because while Jon is clearly guilt ridden over it, he can and has used sex and romance as a manipulation tactic before. As for it being too cruel, well, let's ask Gilly about Jon's capacity for cruelty then hmm?

“You will make a crow of him.” She wiped at her tears with the back of a small pale hand. “I won’t. I won’t.” Kill the boy, thought Jon. “You will. Else I promise you, the day that they burn Dalla’s boy, yours will die as well.”

Jon is quite capable of cruelty when he wants to be just as surely as he's capable of manipulation. This doesn't mean he doesn't feel guilt or that he doesn't care for the people he manipulates. On the contrary, I think part of why Ygritte continuously echoes in Jon's mind as a sort of mentor figure is because of the guilt he feels for leading Ygritte straight to her death. When Ygritte briefly opens up to him about a past abusive relationship, he doesn't dismiss her at all, and seems to make an effort to otherwise be kind, affectionate, and loving to her. He's just also planning on betraying her because he feels the Wildlings as they are currently organized are too dangerous to just be set free on the unsuspecting North (and he's not wrong - his alliance forces the Wildlings to put down their arms, yes, but it also empowers the Wildlings to come to the negotiation table as equals, as people of Westeros rather than as nameless, faceless barbarians).

So no, I don't really think it's OOC for Jon to realize that the enemy he is facing is too dangerous to deal with as is but if he maneuvers them in such a way that they have to listen to him and negotiate as equals, he can keep his own people safe while in a prime position to deal with the threat if it gets out of control. He is also capable of ruthlessness - the entire battle at the ending of ASOS, killing Qhorin, the baby swap, killing Janos Slynt, etc - and cruelty and sexual manipulation.

I also think - and basically everyone agrees, it's not just me - that their "romance" is written incredibly badly and weirdly. So much so that I think it made sense that people would wonder if Jon has an ulterior motive. I reblogged this gifset to my personal a few years ago and you can really see Jon is just over everything that's happening on Dragonstone, he's incredibly unimpressed with Dany, he refuses to even indulge in her fantasies the way he does with Ygritte (like when Ygritte makes that "oh let's disappear into the caves" comment, Jon is wistful! He brings it up as she's dying to comfort both of them! He doesn't like what he's been doing even though he feels it's necessary!), and I know Kit has never been particularly gifted at emoting but he looks just straight up miserable the entire time he's with Dany.

So...even back in s7, I didn't think Jon was actively plotting to murder Dany but I did think he was manipulating her to get the end goal he wanted (protection for the North) and that there was a high chance he was going to turn on her later when the time was right. It wasn't like he was thinking "alright so once the Long Night is ended, here's my twelve step plan to get Dany off the throne and murder her" but I do think he felt like well, once the Long Night is dealt with, there's still a lot of other problems we have to deal with and who knows what might happen as those problems arise. I never thought he was interested in her long term. Some people seemed to think that was beyond the pale but like, that's literally how he felt about Ygritte - he never considered this a long term relationship even if it was a serious one.

If we get anything like that in the books - Jon seducing Dany to get close to her dragons - I generally imagine it going that once he figures out how to ride one of the dragons, he just makes off with it and leaves her high and dry. Maybe he plays up the "we're the blood of the dragon" angle as a distraction of some sort. But like - is he actively manipulating her specifically to usurp her? No. But is he worried about the North and willing to once again put his sexuality, emotions, honor, and body on the line to protect it? Yeah, I think that was the initial plan when they wrote s7 and if Joner.ys happens, I do imagine it's going to go like that; not actively trying to kill her (anymore than he was actively trying to kill Ygritte) but definitely using her feelings for him to get the goal he's aiming for (protection for the North).

[esther-dot]

Myrcella and Trystane had better chemistry than Jonerys despite less screen time. Myrcella had better reaction of her parentage as it was more family moment than Jon parentage.

They were so sweet!

It’s absolutely baffling to me that D&D had no trouble delivering romantic pairings that were believable except for their epic romance of the series. I personally don’t hold the actors responsible or even really blame lack of chemistry (in the 8x04 scene Kit acted Jon kissing Dany just fine), and think the problem was in the writing and D&D’s failure to decide what they were doing?

I wrote this a few years ago:

It’s so weird that D&D wanted to present J*nerys as forbidden love when the only thing that prevented them from getting together in s7 was…nothing.

Tyrion and Dany planned for a strategic marriage back in s6, we even have the Littlefinger/Sansa convo in s7 to clarify that a Jon/Dany marriage would make the most political sense, and Jon might “want” to marry her.

If they were meant to be a parallel to Jon/Ygritte, love between two soldiers on opposite sides of the war…well, that just doesn’t work when Jon and Dany are the ones in power.  If J*nerys was meant to be a parallel to Rhaegar/Lyanna…that comparison doesn’t make sense because a Jon/Dany union would have been the political solution, not a problem (pre-parentage reveal). Missandei dismisses the bastard issue, and since a marriage alliance would could have ended their stalemate in s7, the writers left no reason for Jon (or the advisers) not to suggest it. And it would have been far more believable that Jon suggest that than try to father a bastard with Dany (considering his trauma surrounding that issue). The only in-world reason they left us with for why Jon didn’t suggest marriage during s7 is that he didn’t want to.

It was on the writers’ minds because of that convo between Littlefinger and Sansa, so clearly they thought of it and just opted never to explain it in s8. Which means D&D tied the culmination of the show to a relationship that they hoped we would see as star-crossed love when the story they gave us said it wasn’t.

(link)

And, not only did they not pick a specific approach to make it overall make sense, they didn’t have heartwarming moments where J/D seemed to actually connect as equals. All their scenes involved political disagreements or reminders of Dany’s ambition. Well, all but the sex scene but they didn’t give any context for that, we just had them and Bran’s voiceover (he did nothing to deserve that!) in a very off-putting scene. The decisions were all so determinedly bad with them! I have watched couples that make me care about them in-spite of awful writing, but it’s unreal to me that D&D didn’t actually sit down and figure out what their angle was and the result was a toxic mess. So much of the impact of the finale rested on the horror of Jon killing Dany that it is inexcusable they failed there. I suppose at that point they could have been so checked out that they didn’t make sure the scripts aligned, but we’ve been told how they micromanage the performances so without a coherent thought behind the J/D story, and with them feeding ideas without a clear picture of what they were up to, I think they made it very difficult for the actors to do much.

Anyway, it really is amazing that such a huge chunk of s7 was dedicated to getting J/D to bang, and everyone (fans and critics) complained about how awful the relationship was while D&D had no difficulty with delivering other romantic pairings like Myrcella and Trystane that weren’t as pivotal to the ending of the series. I think that habit of changing the story in the editing process bit them in the ass big time with J/D because that relationship was just so jarring, I have to think they were going back and forth on different ideas and that contributed to how off it was. I wasn’t a shipper, was the most casual of fans when I first watched s7, but I didn’t enjoy any of their scenes. All were deeply unpleasant, and usually, there’s a breaking point where the characters connect emotionally and it draws you in and you see how they’re good for each other/make each other happy/or if it’s a toxic ship, you have that undeniable chemistry and believe they’re inexorably drawn to each other. But nope! I got nothin. When I watched the finale I thought D&D had been working against their own story during s7-8, and I still can’t figure out what the hell they were thinking.

I agree about Myrcella’s parentage reveal too. I can still remember her face when she’s talking to Jaime. It was presented in an emotional/relational context which makes it matter to the audience, but I actually can’t remember the specific words Jon says when he’s told, just that he was angry and stormed away. He tells Dany “it’s true. I know it is” so we know he accepts it, but I don’t know what to make of his feelings. Is he upset with Rhaegar? Ned? Is he ok with being a Targ? Did he wish he wasn’t? How did he come to accept it so quickly? What inside of him told him this was true? None of that mattered to D&D, they wanted to get Dany angry, isolated, and paranoid. That was all the use they had for parentage reveal. 😩

[first-of-her-nxme]

It looks like one of my answers doesn’t show up in the tags so I’ll copy it here, just in case. It might be interesting for the asoiaf fans, Jaqen’s and Arya’s fans in particular;)

So, the question I received was:

Where is the coherent foreshadowing for Jaqen and Arya? It all seems taken out of fucking nowhere

And here we go:

It starts in the very first book when Arya names her direwolf after the queen who married a Dornishman, and it never stops because Arya and Jaqen are repeating Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s story. Of course, in ASOIAF, the story is never exactly the same. Which by the way gives me hope that at least they will have their happy ending. Or the closest thing to a happy ending, which in George Martin’s world means less heartbreaking than the others’s endings;d

Trouble with Jaqarya foreshadowing is that George Martin started writing the story with a five year gap in mind between Arya’s arrival in Braavos and A Dance with Dragons. So, when he first envisioned the story he already had a 15 year old Arya in mind. It means that Arya and Jaqen would have reunited in A Dance with Dragons already and she would have been old enough for a romance. It also means that Jaqen’s identity would have been revealed in A Dance with Dragons.

But, since GRRM abandoned the idea, we have to wait for the reveal till The Winds of Winter. As a consequence the whole build-up is made of hints, symbols, clues, metaphors, parallels to R/L and so on. Nothing is said explicitly because it would ruin the big reveal of who Jaqen is and what’s ahead of them.

So, from the top:

1. Arya names her direwolf after Nymeria, a queen who found home far from her own country and who married a Dornishman. Jaqen is half Dornish, he is Elia’s and Rhaegar’s son, Aegon VI. I already pinned the answer about his true identity to my profile so please read it if you need further explanation.

Thanks to the Game of Thrones finale we know that Arya will sail across the sunset sea. I searched through the books after s8 and of course I found information that they both, J&A, will leave. I guess I need to thank D&D for Arya’s ending, otherwise I would have overlooked the clues completely.

So, either they will find home far away, somewhere in the sea, or in Braavos or in Dorne or they will return to Jaqen’s castle ( the Red Keep or Dragonstone ). Wherever they will stay, it’s going to be far from Arya’s birth place, Winterfell.

2. Nymeria has golden eyes, Arya thinks that they shine like golden coins - it’s another connection to Jaqen ( Aegon ) who switches his iron coin for a golden dragon in A Feast for Crows. The coin is poisoned and kills Pate but it’s also a symbol of courtship. Pate needed it to claim his beloved Rosey.

3. On the way to King’s Landing, Arya is picking up flowers in the Neck, perhaps in the same area where the flowers for Lyanna’s crown had been picked. Ned is deeply moved when he sees Arya with the flowers because she reminds him of Lya. The flowers are purple - purple is the symbol of royal birth, of the rightful heir to the throne whom Jaqen ( Aegon ) is. They are called poisoned kisses and burn Arya’s hands - Jaqen is using poisons and represents fire. He is a Targ, a future dragon rider. Arya will also burn her hands and lips in the House of Black and White while learning to make poisons.”Poisoned kisses” is a bad name, it implies doomed love which reminds us of R/L. For Arya it means a love for the murderer. Hopefully with a happier ending than Lya’s love.      

4. Ned tells Arya that she will marry a king and rule his castle and they will have sons. Like I said before, Jaqen is the rightful king. In A Clash of Kings, Arya even reveals his identity though it is very cleverly concealed in the scene when she gives him his own name. To be brief: it's a play on words; he asks her if the name of the king she wants dead is Joffrey and she answers the name ( of the king ) is Jaqen H’ghar. So Joffrey is not the king, he’s impostor, the true king is Jaqen.

5. In King’s Landing, Arya has dreams of Rhaenys though she doesn’t realize it. She also catches Rhaenys’s cat, her “little dragon”, and kisses its forehead. In Harrenhal, Jaqen kisses her forehead as if to return the kiss;)

6. Arya ruins Sansa’s silk dress and offers to make her a new one. Sansa tells her she could make a dress good enough only to clean the pigsty.

That pigsty is kind of a big deal.

In fairytales, princes disguise themselves as swineherds to hide their true identity, like in H.C Andersen’s story “The Swineherd”.

George Martin used this motif in his books too. In AFFC Jaqen wears the face of Pate “the Pig Boy”. Arya, on the other hand, lives in Braavos in his house, makes dresses and sweeps the floors. She lives in the Pig Boy’s house, in the pigsty, and cleans it -  just like Sansa has said. Only the pigsty is the prince’s house like Ned has foretold.

7. In Harrenhal, Jaqen wakes Arya from her wolf dream and kisses her. This motif comes from the Sleeping Beauty fairytale - only the prince can awake the sleeping beauty.

8. Also in Harrenhal, Jaqen and Arya make their “weasel soup”. They pour hot broth on the guards to free the Northmen. Jaqen gives Arya a pair of padded gloves and he is wearing the identical gloves himself, while they struggle the pot of soup between them - it’s a metaphor for sharing power. Gloves are symbol of power and noble birth.

The cooking pot is another motif borrowed from “The Swineherd” - the prince has a magic pot that plays a song. Jaqen ( Aegon ) has a song too, a song of Ice and Fire.

9. Jaqen gives Arya his coin ( we already know it’s a symbol of courtship ) and she pays with it for a passage across the narrow sea. She crosses the sea to get to the House of Black and White, the house of darkness.

In Greek mythology, the souls of dead people pay with a coin to cross the river and get to the Underworld. Arya, like Persephone, is first shown while picking up flowers and then she descends into the Underworld seduced by GRRM’s version of Hades. Hades has a three-headed dog, Jaqen has a prophecy ( and the coin ) of a three-headed dragon.

10. When Arya meets the Ghost of High Heart, the witch compares her to Jenny, a girl with flowers in her hair who fell in love with a Targaryen prince.

11. In ASOS, Arya listens to Tom Sevenstrings playing My Featherbed song. The song was written by Rhaegar for Lyanna. It tells the story of Jenny and Duncan Targaryen but Rhaegar concealed his own feelings for Lya in the text. The lyrics refer to Arya and Jaqen as well - they repeat J/D and R/L story of a Targaryen prince and a girl from the North.

Of course Rhaegar didn’t know about his son and Lya’s niece when he wrote the song:))

The song is not about Gendrya, like people think. I already mentioned it in one of my answers. It’s very important because it helps to understand what had happened in Harrenhal and what will happen to Arya and Jaqen.

Arya hears My Featherbed after Gendry invited her to the smithy. He knocked her over and they wrestled. Her dress was torn and she looked as if someone had tried to hurt her. Right after Tom plays Rhaegar’s song. Gendry obviously didn’t want to hurt Arya but that scene explains what Robert did in Harrenhal after Rhaegar left - he was furious that Rhaegar crowned Lya so he demanded “his rights”. That’s why Lyanna ran off. Rhaegar was her rescue.

12. In the House of Black and White Arya sleeps under the red blanket which reminds her of her favorite blanket from Winterfell. I’m sure it’s Jaqen’s blanket, and perhaps his bed too, because red is his color: red hair, red poison, red war, red god, red comet over Harrenhal, red dragon (?)  - red accompanies him throughout his journey. Of course black is his color too, it’s the color of the Stranger. Red and black are the colors of House...

13. In Arya’s Braavosi chapters GRRM concealed the story of the beginning of Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s love in Harrenhal. But that’s a massive story to tell so I will write a separate post about it.

14. Finally, in Mercy chapter Arya hears the story of the first Black Pearl of Braavos, the pirate queen, and her affair with King Aegon IV. She sighs wistfully and says that she would love to see a dragon too. Dragon here means more than an animal, GRRM once again hints at her future romance with the Dragon.

15. “Mercy” chapter parallels the prologue to A Feast for Crows. Originally it was meant to be in AFFC but GRRM eventually moved it to TWOW.

Perhaps GRRM wanted Jaqen’s chapter to start AFFC and Arya’s chapter to end the book. The prologue is a chapter with two main motifs: dragons and love. “Mercy” is a chapter of revenge and love for a dragon. The prologue starts at night when Pate’s beloved is sleeping naked in her room. “Mercy” starts at dawn when Arya wakes up naked in her room and sees a dragon boat passing beneath her window.

But those two chapters are so rich in parallels that they deserve a separate post as well:)

16. While Jaqen and Arya are having their adventures in Oldtown and Braavos respectively, in the North Mance is infiltrating Winterfell. Mance is posing as a bard. He sings a song of a Dornishman’s wife in turn with the Northman’s daughter. It’s another delightful hint that the Northman’s daughter, Ned’s daughter is ( well, will be ) the Dornishman’s wife.

As you can see it’s a pretty massive foreshadowing. I probably still omitted something because there are really tons of those clues.

I hope you’ve enjoyed the read.

Thanks for the ask :)

[ladyandtheghost]

How “The Dany-Show” ruined GoT at the core: 3-point system

1. Sansa vs. Cersei: 

How is it possible that we had a million reunions - many of them involving secondary characters for fluff and fan service with zero impact on the plot - but these two women who had so much drama, so much unresolved business, never saw each other again? This is where you would have found the good story to tell and a major plot strand to resolve: the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters. This is what started it all, this is where it should have ended. This is the story they should have focused on. 

So why didn’t they? 

Because Game of Thrones was already dead and gone and the series had become The Dany-Show and nothing but The Dany-Show. 

Every character, every story arc, everything had to be directed towards Dragon Barbie and her drama. So of course there was no time or space for anything that was not related to the The Dany-Show. Basically a black hole that sucked all the great storylines and characters into its dark void. 

Massive loose plot strands like the Stark-Lannister showdown were left to rot, because it was far more important to show off that CGI budget for gratuitous dragon shots and inane conversations between secondary character including sex jokes on the main. 

There was literally more screen time allotted to the dragons than to Cersei...

After four seasons of Sansa and Cersei constantly referring to each other and the day they would meet again (willingly or not), it’s scandalous that they shoved so many characters back together for pointless reunions that were more or less blatant fan service (Bronn and the Lannister boys, really?!) but the big conflict, the personal drama that was playing out between Sansa and Cersei - that had actually taken on political dimensions now - did not even get a single scene? 

Wrong choice. 

I mean can you even imagine how Lena and Sophie would have acted the shit out of their reunion, because I can and it makes me furious that we were robbed of it. When two characters have so much unfinished business, so much foreshadowing and so much history that still isn’t resolved, the least you can expect is to give them at least a half-assed resolution - but we did not even get that, because it had nothing to do with The Dany-Show. Because all the characters have to only think about Dany and relate to Dany and if there is to be a conflict between female characters, it has to involve Dany and no one else. 

Poor Lena deserved better than to be reduced to playing a two-dimensional shadow of Cersei Lannister who was little more than a prompt giver to The Euron Greyjoy Side-Show (because sex jokes!) 

Also Bonus fuck-up: the prophecy of the YMBQ? Cersei died in the arms of Jaime, if anything Dany’s attack had given her back the one person/thing she cares about. So how exactly did Dany rob her of “all you hold dear” when Dany’s attack caused Jaime to literally drop Brienne like a hot potato, declare his undying love for Cersei and run back into her arms for his final moment? 

Before that, Sansa had already “taken” Jaime into her services together with Brienne. He’d actually switched sides to serve “another queen” (just not Dany) and at least this prophecy made sense for two seconds but of course the YMBQ had to be Dany because it’s The Dany Show, whether it makes sense or not...

They just didn’t care anymore, did they? 

2. Little...who?: 

So we have half a dozen characters rolling up to Winterfell who knew Littlefinger and his dirty business, and Arya, Sansa and Bran are about to go: 

Only for some reason: NO ONE asks. 

There is not a single reference to the fact that the Stark kids found out that Littlefinger is the mastermind behind 90% of everything that has happened since S1 and that he was executed for this. It’s like it never happened and he never existed and neither did all the important plot points before S8. 

Did Jon ever find out that Littlefinger betrayed Ned and conspired with the Lannisters to bring down the Starks? 

Did Tyrion ever find out that Littlefinger framed him at the Purple Wedding?

Did Varys ever find out that his nemesis was outsmarted and defeated by three teenagers?

Nope. Nope. And nope.  

Ain’t we all?

A character who’s been hailed as MVP by a huge part of the fandom because he knew how to network and play the game™ that is advertised in the title like no other, isn’t even mentioned again. One of the most popular theories re: S8 was (ridiculous as I found it myself) “Littlefinger isn’t dead” because many people felt he was still important to the story and there was also a lot of unfinished business with other characters he was connected to...Jon, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei, Sansa...

Instead, Littlefinger himself, his death and every plot point he was ever involved in was simply erased -  because Littlefinger and his relation to these characters had nothing to do with, i.e. did not contribute to...you guessed it...The Dany-Show and therefore POUF, he never existed...

3. R+L = who gives a f***

But you know, these are minor grievances compared to the fact that Jon’s character was not only dumbled down and turned into a complicit in genocide...

Jon’s parentage story arc - you know, THE big revelation and PLOT TWIST  - was turned into a side note, a five-minute mini drama that was more about how this will affect poor little Dany and her feelings. 

They gave us scenes of Dany waxing on about how Jon’s being the one true king stresses her out because she wants the throne and what she expects him to do about it - but they ROBBED us of the moment Jon tells the Stark siblings that he is not truly their brother, but their cousin. 

Because who cares about how Jon feels about this and his “siblings” coming to terms with the fact that:

their father Ned Stark had kept Jon a secret from everyone 

that he had not fathered a bastard and betrayed their mother

but saved the one true heir, at cost of his honour, 

they lived with the Targaryen crown prince and raised him under everyone’s nose...

No, no, the important thing is how Dany feels about it all and how it affects her. 

After the huge build-up, the theories, the overt foreshadowing,  even more infuriating - after throwing poor Elia and her children under the bus and making Jon legitimate...

After literally EVERYTHING in this series leading up to the moment when everyone would know who Jon Snow truly is...it had no effect on the story whatsoever, besides contributing to Dany finally revealing the full extent of her insanity (which was only a matter of time anyways)

Heir to the Iron Throne? Targaryen Prince? Rhaegar’s son? PTWP?

The point is: Drama for poor little Dany because her nephew doesn’t want to fuck her anymore is the actual heir. 

You can’t even say that it led to her advisors finding out and betraying her because that is something they should have done ages ago, at the latest when she burned the Tarlys. It gave them a legitimate alternative option, yes, but it was not the first time they thought she needs to go...

At least R+L=J served one good purpose: it rubbed Dany’s nose in it that she is not special at all. She is NOT the last Targ, nor the “princess that was promised” - and it was never her destiny to rule, she was only ever the “aunt” of the prince. 

Sadly, this is again ALL about Dany and her feelings and how everyone else reacts to her in light of the news that Jon is Aegon. 

So R+L=J is not even about Jon in the end, it’s just another element of The Dany-Show. And once Dany is gone, it’s like R+L=J also got erased (just like Littlefinger and the Stark-Lannister-conflict) 

...because let’s just send the Head of House Targaryen and last of his line beyond the wall again just because the murderous army of the mad tyrant, whom he heroically freed us from, demands it...and of course we have to wrap up the last five minutes of this shitty episode. 

Conclusion: 

D&D just REALLY didn’t care anymore once The Dany-Show was over and it’s painfully obvious to see. The good news is that all of these plot points that got erased/dumbled down/ignored^^ are things that are important to GRRM, which gives me hope for the last books at least...

[thestupidhelmet]

What other couple from different show or movie are like hyde And Jackie or could be

Oh, man. Okay, might be some unfamiliar, older, and even some problematic choices on here, but I’ll add clarification / commentary.

Claire Standish and John Bender and from The Breakfast Club.

I’ve called then the proto-Jackie/Hyde years ago. And they definitely have that dynamic. But after reading this article by Molly Ringwald (Claire) from The New Yorker (April 6, 2018), it’s obvious how problematic John’s treatment of Claire is.

Bruce and Jill from the movie Long Ago, Tomorrow (or Under the Raging Moon).

This is a fantastic but sad movie. Bruce’s character has a lot of Hyde’s sarcasm and views girls the way Hyde does pre-Jackie (and treats them a bit Kelso-ish) at the start. But once his life completely changes due to contracting polio and becoming paralyzed, he becomes intrigued by Jill -- who is very smart and also paralyzed due to polio. She’s very smart, and he’s attracted to her -- but an ass to her at first. But their relationship develops in such a lovely way and changes him. Same as how Hyde’s relationship changes him.

I don’t want to say more because of spoilers, but I 100% recommend the movie.

Isaiah and Rachel in Crash Into You by Katie McGarry

This is a book recommendation, but this relationship is as Jackie-and-Hyde as it gets. I love it.

Adora and Catra from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power

A cartoon -- and this relationship is far more extreme than Jackie and Hyde’s. (Also the characters are women, but does that matter? Not to me.). But, man, you want the angst and tsundere and softness (eventually) of Jackie and Hyde? Watch this show.

Clarke and Bellamy from The 100

This one ends even worse than J/H do in S8 (because of some behind-the-scenes B.S.), so don’t expect any end-game satisfaction here. Just pain. But the actors were told by the show creator/showrunner to play their relationship as romantic for six years (Bob Morley, the actor who plays Bellamy stated this on a video q&a with a fan recently), so one can enjoy the Jackie/Hyde-esque dynamic of their relationship during seasons 1-6.

(And for any Clarke/Lexa shippers, I enjoyed their relationship, too, and wasn’t happy it ended or the way it did. This is just me answering the anon’s question.)

Maxine Shaw and Kyle Barker from Living Single

They have a definite Jackie/Hyde dynamic. Their characters aren’t like Jackie and Hyde, but their relationship fits, imo.

Jeff and Annie from Community

The age difference between the characters (not actors) is a bit ... uncomfortable. But their relationship definitely has a Jackie/Hyde-esque dynamic but less antagonistic. It’s a slow-burn with quite a bit of tension, but what we get of their relationship (friendship and romance) plus blink-and-you’ll-miss-it validations and moments are very satisfying. 

Jane Goodale and Eddie Alden from the movie Someone Like You

Eddie is very Hyde-like, and Jane is Jackie-esque, and their relationship should satisfy your Jackie/Hyde needs.

---

And that’s what I got for now. :D

[shieldofrohan]

I was struck by your idea that there may be a Jonsa political marriage in TWOW or early in ADOS because I could NOT figure out why they made all those parallels between them and Ned/Cat in the show without addressing it. But, your idea worries me because in s7 they compared J/D to Rhaegar/Lyanna, and while I can't imagine Jon being unfaithful, Dany falling in love with Jon was what brought her North. So how does that/the love triangle we saw on the show play out if Jonsa is already married?

Hello @esther-dot! First of all thank you for your ask, people don’t ask me anything usually so your ask made me really happy. 

I wrote a long answer I guess, sorry :

First let me say that: I think we are giving too much credit to show. After S4 the show kind of stopped following the books. I mean look at the S5 Ramsay/Sansa nonsense. D&D made it clear that GRRM gave them some important scenes for them to work with so I see the show as a slide-show of some scenes from books tbh. For example the arrival of the Knights of the Vale was sth you can find the hints of it in the books. Or the trial and death of Baelish by the hand of Sansa. Even the death of Daenerys was foreshadowed in the books. But the plots to get to those scenes were all D&D if you ask me. So they had to fill the gaps and they did it how they wanted. 

At this point I really can’t see a version of Asoiaf without a jonsa plot. Jonsa is the most foreshadowed plot in the books. The hints are starting in the prologue of the AGOT and they keep going in the AFFC and ADWD, and you can even find hints in other books of GRRM. Jonsa foreshadowings are surrounded by marriage and children imagery. So not having a jonsa marriage or kids seems unlikely to me. 

I am looking at the j*nerys foreshadowings and they are all about them being enemies. For example these two chapters that follow each other:

“No. Dany shivered. No, no, oh no.“Are you deaf, fool?” Reznak mo Reznak demanded of the man. “Did you not hear my pronouncement? See my factors on the morrow, and you shall be paid for your sheep.” “Reznak,” Ser Barristan said quietly, “hold your tongue and open your eyes. Those are no sheep bones.” No, Dany thought, those are the bones of a child.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

*

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

The next morning Xaro’s galleas was gone, but the “gift” that he had brought her remained behind in Slaver’s Bay. Long red streamers flew from the masts of the thirteen Qartheen galleys, writhing in the wind. And when Daenerys descended to hold court, a messenger from the ships awaited her. He spoke no word but laid at her feet a black satin pillow, upon which rested a single bloodstained glove. “What is this?” Skahaz demanded. “A bloody glove …” “… means war,” said the queen.

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

*

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There’s a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.“It is worse than I feared, my lord,” Marsh announced when he was done. He sounded gloomier than Dolorous Edd.Jon had just been thinking that all the meat in the world surrounded them. You know nothing, Jon Snow. “How so? This seems a deal of food to me.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

Dizzy, Dany closed her eyes. When she opened them again, she glimpsed the Meereenese beneath her through a haze of tears and dust, pouring up the steps and out into the streets.The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon’s neck and cried, “Higher!” Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon’s wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!”

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

*

Jon clasped the offered hand. The words of his oath rang through his head. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

I really try to see some romantic hints in those but I can’t find them. So why did D&D choose to do j*nerys instead of jonsa? Let’s face it: Their main audience are locals and Dany lovers. People were waiting them to bang... (ew). And when he was asked about Grrm’s intentions about Jon and Dany, Alan Taylor (director) said that he can’t tell what Grrm said because it is a S8 twist. So even the most j*nerys shipper director couldn’t confirm that j*nerys was sth Grrm told them about. What Grrm told them was a S8 twist, which turned out to be Jon killing Daenerys. I bet they chose the route of a romance instead of them being enemies (Dance of Dragons 2.0 ?!?!?!) so they could shock the audience with the final twist (a poor choice i must say).

So what I am trying to say is that: j*nerys is probably not a book thing. Or at least it can only be one sided in the books. Look at the S7-8 Jon Snow.. they made him so OOC to be in love with Dany... I am sure that Book!Jon won’t be in love with Dany. To be fair, I even can’t see Jon in Dragonstone or etc. Traveling during a White Walker threat is not a good idea. He won’t have such a time to go to DS and fall in love with someone like Dany. Dany is a combination of Cersei, Joffrey, Stannis, Selyse and Melisandre... Can you imagine Jon falling for those? No I don’t think so. I mean there is even dragon glass in Skagos... why would he bother to go DS? And we know that Dragons don’t like North and I can’t image using the fire threat to beat the ice threat... So her dragons won’t be the main forces against the Others. 

I tried to explain why Show!J*nerys was so forced to please the audience and how it was a fan service plot. But still an one-sided j*nerys can happen in the books. There are more foreshowings for this tbh. I am imaging an Aerys-Joanna-Tywin kind of triangle in the books. 

I mean look at this: (I have examined the Jon chapters that follow Dany ones in the ADWD and there were some interesting things. Maybe i’ll write a meta about them one day but for now let’s focus on one hint that I found interesting)

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.” “As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

[...]

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

This is Daenerys’ wedding chapter and she learns about her father’s jealousy about Tywin and Joanna’s marriage. 

And bonus: she also wishes that Daario to take her away like Rhaegar did with his Stark lady. So in her wedding chapter she mentions the love between a Targaryen prince and a Stark lady. 

But she also knows that no one is coming for her. 

And Jon chapter follows this chapter. And he talks about: his dislike for Selyse and Melisandre, kinslaying, daggers in dark, the grey girl. So he won’t like Daenerys either, kinslaying is an important hint (both for Dany-Viserys and Jon-Daenerys) and I bet that Grey Girl is Sansa. 

Now we know that Dany is Aerys 2.0 with dragons and she will end what her father has started by burning down KL. So in this triangle Dany is Aerys. 

And who are Joanna and Tywin? 

The first J+T pair she’ll meet will be Aegon and Arianna probably. They are cousins too and Aegon chose not to be just a consort to his aunt by marrying her, so he’ll probably choose Arianne to gain Dorne’s support. I always consider Aegon (fake or not) and Arianne as a warning for Daenerys about Jonsa. Aegon has parallels with Sansa and Jon (secret identity with different hair color and secret Targ parentage etc). And Arianne has parallels with Sansa (The girl in the tower trope). So those two will be a test for Daenerys before she meets with Jon and Sansa. But her main test will be with Jonsa.

Jonsa fit into Joanna/Tywin pair more. They are cousins and they grew up together and after them being reunited they will be very important for each other. 

And let’s not forget about the fact that Tywin was the Hand of Aerys and he betrayed him and his son Jaime killed Aerys in the throne room... We are all aware of the parallels between Jaime and Jon already. But Jon was also her adviser and she wanted to rule the 7K with him. But in the end he betrayed her. I believe that Jon’s Ygritte arc might be useful for him to lure Dany into some false trust. But him sleeping with her and loving her and later lose her in his arms sounds like a cheap copy of Ygritte/Jon plot and it makes no sense. 

I think Dany will be taken with him and he’ll use this but it doesn’t mean that they will be lovers. Because it seems like Grrm is going to use RLJ in Jon’s romantic life (like he planned in the original/first outline with Jon-Arya romance). And RLJ has no effect on j*nerys. They can still f*ck and marry... 

I mean Grrm even put an uncle-niece marriage (Jonnel-Sansa Stark!!) in the Stark family tree to show that Starks have no problem with marrying with their uncles/aunts etc. Grrm only considers the marriages between siblings and parent-children as incest. So j*nerys is not a doomed love. But for jonsa; RLJ makes everything smooth. Therefore RLJ must be used in jonsa plot.

So Dany is the Aerys of the triangle and no Targaryen prince will come for her because they are busy with their Stark ladies. (Rhaegar- Lyanna and also maybe Jacaerys and Sara Snow?) 

To explain the early Jonsa political marriage, I must say that I was inspired by the Grand Northern Conspiracy. According to this theory, Howland Reed is the keeper of Robb’s Will about Jon and he is also the one who knows about RLJ. 

It does not go north with Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, who expressly carry false letters, and is often feared lost at the Twins in the chaos following the Red Wedding. Another possibility, however, is that the document was secreted away in Hag’s Mire and has now been retrieved by Lady Stoneheart. Who in turn, for a real kicker of an ironic twist, delivers the suspected proof of Jon’s kingship to Greywater Watch for safekeeping, care of Howland Reed, who then knows more of the crowns Jon’s entitled to than any other man living in the world of ASOIAF.

https://zincpiccalilli.tumblr.com/post/52748381148

Let’s accept this theory and say that Howland has the Will. Without his proof other lords can’t just announce Jon as the KITN. I believe that Howland will be present at Winterfell to show the Will. But Howland was also a friend of Ned Stark. And he is loyal to House Stark. He kept RLJ as secret for years to protect the Starks and Jon from Robert’s wrath. But Robert is dead and he has no reason to keep this secret anymore. And I can’t imagine him sitting quietly while other lords declare Jon as the King while a true born Stark (Sansa) is sitting right there. He wouldn’t betray Ned’s memory like that. So he’ll spill the tea with RLJ too. And after that maybe Sansa will finally have some agency for her choice of husband. So them together will be the one answer of North’s all wishes. 

And let’s not forget that GRRM said he knows which characters will end up married. But in the show there was no marriage. So I am still waiting a marriage. 

And even with an early Jonsa marriage, Jon and Dany might still meet. Imagine S7 with a married Jonsa. Jon leaves Sansa to fight a battle. It would be a great parallel with NedCat. Ned left Cat while she was pregnant to go to war. And maybe there will be rumors about Jon and Dragon Queen just like how Ned betrayed Cat. But like Ned, Jon would be loyal to Sansa and North too in truth. 

Maybe Jon will gain Dany’s trust and help her against Aegon. And return she’ll accept to help North. But in the end I don’t think that Dany will come/or stay in North. Also in the Jon chapter that comes after Dany one, Jon was warned against Dragons:

“Salladhor Saan?” “The Lysene pirate? Some say he has returned to his old haunts, this is so. And Lord Redwyne’s war fleet creeps through the Broken Arm as well. On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.” “Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.” “My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.” No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

Maybe Dany will want sth more from Jon and will be jealous of Jon and Sansa just like her father was jealous of Tywin and Joanna. Maybe Jon will betray her in most unexpected time just like Tywin betrayed Aerys. 

Btw I am still waiting for a battle between Daenerys and Jon in Trident after he betrayed Dany. (You know Dany dreamed about a fighting against an usurper in ice armor in Trident... Jon will be the Usurper because he’ll be the King of North and Dany will see North as a part of her Kingdom.)

So my timeline would be like this:

- Jon and Sansa reunite and take North back

- The Will and RLJ happen and they unite their claims by marriage

- A dance between Aegon and Daenerys and she loses a dragon

- Jon gains her trust only to use her and pacify her to protect the North during the Dance

- Him refusing the bend the knee and them becoming enemies

- Daenerys loses one of her dragons

- Daenerys and Euron being a chaotic duo for Westeros

- Daenerys burns down KL and marches to North for revenge

- North (aka Jon) vs Daenerys in Trident

- Daenerys dies and Drogon gets hurt

- Jon refusing the throne so he can go back to North (the Duncan of Dragonflies jumped out)

- Bran becomes King

- Jon returns North to fight against the Others etc. (I refuse believe that he’ll be punished and sent back to Wall? Grrm literally has to kill him to free him from Night’s Watch so I don’t see him returning there)

- Epiloge. 

***

Well I talked too much about too many things but I hope my answer was not such a bullsh*t :) 

Thanks again for the ask. Let me know your thoughts. 

[unknown-terrain]

My advice to those bothered by NCW reposting that twincest video is to use the mute feature. Or, hell, unfollow him. I think there's a faction of Braime fans who believe he secretly hates the ending and hasn't trashed it for fear of risking future work or whatever. (Which is ridic. 'cause white men are Teflon in this industry.) But he legit wrote Benioff and Weiss a love letter thanking them for how they wrapped up Jaime's story! (Apparently it didn't matter to him that Brienne got fucked over in the process.) Did he like Braime? Sure. I think a lot of it was a combination of him pandering to fans 'cause it got him positive attention and being unhappy with Jaime basically having no real story beyond being Cersei's lapdog, though. The reason he acted like such a condescending douche about the backlash was 'cause he obviously didn't see the ending as the gross glorification of an incestuous relationship we saw it as, but viewed Jaime as a romantically tragic hero for running back to rescue and die with the woman he loved. It's been two years, NCW is dying on that hill.

Based on what another anon told me looks like many people did unfollow him after reposting that Twincest thing but yeah I was surprised other J/B shippers were shocked he posted that. I wasn't. Which is why I unfollowed him two years ago. He wants to continue looking like a crazy has-been defending incest/abuse, then he can keep doing that and become even more irrelevant. I see so many still making excuses for him though but hey if they still wanna follow him and be a fan of his that's their choice but don't complain when he starts showing his complete and utter devotion to D&D's vision again. Him getting booed at Comic Con when he defended Jaime's ending was gold and you can tell he was bothered by that lol. Anyway the J/B fandom doesn't need him and never really needed him tbh. Gwendoline Christie doesn't get enough credit for being the og J/B shipper. She was the first one of the two to say aloud J/B were in love and she also didn't degrade the fans for hating S8.

[daenerys-targaryen-moved]

I like Sansa and Dany. I dont get why people feel they need to like one character and bash the other. To me it just feels wrong. Both have qualities that are enjoyable and I think that's what people SHOULD focus on but fail to because they want to look socially righteous or whatever.

They really do have a lot in common, a lot more in common than what the fandom likes to portray and accept. Both are young girls. Both are orphans. Both have been abused and used by those around them. Both have flaws. Both have made mistakes. Both have been forced to endure physical, emotional and psychological pain. Both have learned and grown from the girls they were when the series started. Both have been married against their will.

I came into the fandom as a Dany, Jon and Arya stan. At the time, season 7 had just barely began, and I didn’t really care about Sansas character as much as I did theirs. By following Dany, Jon and Arya stans, I of course found inconsistencies and things that I didn’t like about s6 Sansa that I hadn’t really had a problem with before joining fandom. Then s7 happened, and more out of character things happened with her, more entitlement happened, more of her fans started hating on Dany for getting in the way of their ship, and it became quite unbearable to follow any Sansa stan because got had Sansa have conflict with every fucking character she came in contact with from s6 to s8. As a Jon stan, I couldn’t deal with them calling him stupid and just thinking with his cock ect. As an Arya stan, I couldn’t deal with them saying that Arya is just a psychotic murderer who only thirsts for blood and isn’t a true Stark and wouldn’t have survived what Sansa did ect. As a Dany stan, I can’t deal with them calling her mad and crazy and a tyrant and a whore and a foreigner ect. I now have this association with her character with all of those nasty people that I still deal with on a daily basis.

Now that the series is over, I’m able to kind of take a step back and just try to let go of GoT because I know in my heart that every single character in s8 was out of character, but especially Sansas character because D&D had no idea what to do with her character after s5 so they just made her entire ‘arc’ up. Everything after s5 is... literally just fanfiction when it comes to her and GoT. I really do think that D&D felt that they needed to give her this huge platform because of what they did to her in s5 / s6. The outrage was so intense (even I hated it when it aired and happened), that I think they realized they fucked up and tried to turn their abused naive girl into a Strong Powerful Women when they didn’t need to? They had no reason to marry her to Ramsay, other then they had no idea what to do with her character and of course went straight for ‘let’s abuse a woman!’ tactic. I’m trying to find Sansa stans who don’t hate Daenerys and villify her every chance they get because I want to at least like her book version. I want to at the very least be able to feel okay about her? The show and her stans (the bad ones) make it really hard but I’m trying you know lmao. I don’t want to be this person who just can’t stand a character based off of their show counterpart or their fans. I know she’s not perfect, but neither is Daenerys or Arya and I love them more than anything. I know she has flaws, but so does Daenerys. Being flawed isn’t a bad thing, in fact, it makes the character more human to me. I really want to let go of GoT, I want to rebuy the books, I want to actually pay attention to Sansas character because deadass I only ever really read Daenerys chapters, she’s been my favorite sense day one and no one is going to top her for me.... but like I said... I want to try to like sansas book counterpart and just be in this bubble away from Sansa stans who hate Dany and Dany stans who hate Sansa I’m just so tired. I know that I complain a lot about Sansa stans, but trust me I’m never ever talking about decent / non crazy Sansa stans if that makes any sense. I’m never talking about mutuals or friends or anyone who doesn’t villify Daenerys. I’m specifically talking about those Sansa / j*nsa stans who villify Dany for breathing. I’m just tired. I want to be defined by the things that I love, not the things I hate. I want to be happy and full of light and goodness and I don’t want to deal with bullshit anymore. I’m so tired of antis and everything that they come with I’m just sick of it. I want to follow and befreind more sansa stans who like Daenerys and Arya and Brienne. I want to follow and befriend more asoiaf based blogs because Game of Thrones was a fucking nightmare that needs to be put to rest. Sorry that I want and rambled on (my brand) but yeah, this is how I feel about it all lmao.

[ms-anne-xia]

I haven't seen S6 in a long while, but were there any scenes between Tyrion and Daenerys that lay groundwork for his rampant devotion to her for S7 & S8? It feels like he goes from highly skeptical of her, to being meh or curious about her, to stating high praise about his belief in her within only a few 1 on 1 encounters with her. It strikes me as very contrived.

Yeah, I’m just like you OP. Tyrion just randomly believing in Daenerys when he started as being skeptical of her really doesn’t make any sense. I did see a Tumblr blog make a whole post about this, but I forgot their name. So, I’ll try to put my opinion in.

Firstly, Tyrion questioning whether or not Daenerys will be a good ruler was very fresh and relieving, seeing as everyone either praised her or worshipped her. There was no real love where she was. It was simply blind worship.

Daenerys in the show has been in three relationships, and then add Jorah and, supposedly Tyrion, who were madly in love with her:

With Drogo, she learned how to pleasure him and eventually fell in love with him. Despite this, however, the relationship started out as abuse, so Dany falling in love with her abuser/rapist is really just pure Stockholm Syndrome, and no one can convince me otherwise.

With Daario, in the books Daenerys fell for him because (and I shit you not) he had blue eyes and was attractive. Yeah, her crush on him shows that despite being a quote on quote Queen and conqueror, she’s still a young girl. Even though in the show, it says that Dany never really loved Daario, the books clearly say that she’s absolutely infatuated with him. However, like in the show, I don’t believe it will last. Me personally, I think Daario will be Danys treason for gold, seeing as he is a sellsword after all. But hey, I could be wrong. I just don’t think the couple is pure romance or anything, rather than just pure lust.

Now, let’s get to Jon Snow. I’m just gonna say it: this ship was only made canon in the show simply for the sake of fan service. The fans wanted this for years, so of course D&D made it happen. After all, anything to make this popular show more popular. But when it happened, it was overall terrible. There was no chemistry between the characters (despite the actors being best friends), it was rushed and OOC (for Jon at least but even for Dany to an extent), and then it turned into flat out emotional abuse, with Dany manipulating Jon into keeping his heritage a secret. But you’ve probably seen a bunch of antis already shit on this atrocious relationship, so I’m not gonna get too into it. Besides, those posts explain the problem with J*nerys better than I do.

With Jorah, I definitely believe he could’ve and should’ve been the best choice for Daenerys. He’s been with her since the beginning of her story, has seen all her highs and lows, and overall is very much dedicated to her. If anything, they should’ve been made a thing over J*nerys. Not only would it have been kind of a plot twist and a huge slap to the face for certain incompetent fans, but at least it would’ve made sense. However, as much as I ship them, I do agree that they’re not on equal footing, with Dany being above Jorah in every sense of the word.

With all these relationships mentioned, let’s get to Tyrion, which is a confusing take. In the books, he doesn’t decide to go to Meereen to meet Daenerys cause he believes in her. It’s simply because he has nothing better to do. That’s it. They haven’t even met in the books yet. But just like J*nerys, D&D wanted to feed into the fan service.

When they do meet however, Tyrion keeps his skepticism in tact and even says that Daenerys is terrible to an extent. I think maybe when he heard Dany talk about breaking the wheel, perhaps that’s when Tyrion started to change his mind about her, but that shouldn’t be enough even for him. If they wanted to make this duo interesting, once Dany finishes her talk of the wheel, have Tyrion ask how, and then cut the scene. It would show that Tyrion doesn’t necessarily believe in Danys pretty words, cause that’s simply what they are: words. She has to prove to him that she’s really worth fighting for. And it would show that despite all her talk, Daenerys doesn’t have any real plans for her future rule in Westeros (if she ever sits on the IT in the books that is)

Now in the books, Tyrion is in a very dark state of mind. He tries to get back on his feet, and joins Varys in his journey to meet Daenerys. I think Tyrion in the show saw Dany as this glimmer of hope for him, that there’s still good in the world. And when she makes him her Hand, that’s when he’s regained a sense of purpose. But even if Daenerys gave Tyrion a reason to live, that doesn’t mean he had to be blindly loyal to her and even flat out fall in love with her like all the other men. It just makes show!Dany even more of a Mary Sue.

I wouldn’t have minded if Tyrion was curious about Daenerys even after he became her Hand, but there’s no way that he’d just constantly praise her to the point where it looked like he was brainwashed and a part of a cult. Tyrion should’ve definitely remained skeptical of Dany and even should’ve second guessed his decision to join her the moment she set fire to the Tarlys.

So to put it shortly: no. There’s barely any scenes where it depicts Tyrion’s transition from a witty and intelligent character, to a devoted fool to Danys cult of personality.

Thanks for the ask!

[starksinthenorth]

...

I’ve been pretty absent from Tumblr and AO3 over the last month or so. In that time I: moved back to the city my school is in from where my parents live, started a new job, dealt with my city’s race riots/protests happening right outside my building (the stores on the first floor got broken into two nights in a row and a neighbor got maced by a cop while watching from their balcony, a friend got arrested for violating curfew - and that’s just a few things that happened), and started a new job. I live alone with a cat and dealing with the emotional isolation from friends and family has been more draining than I anticipated. My apologies for not responding, but with all the personal shit I just did not have the emotional energy to deal with ship wars and people’s adamant defenses of their faves.

This post is an address to a series of comments on my fic, Brave, Gentle, Strong, on AO3 by someone who has (generally) been respectful until recently, when the comments got somewhat more demanding and entitled. In fairness, I did promise to answer but just did not have the emotional space to deal with this. There’s a lot in those comments, so I’ll be addressing them in chunks. Here goes.

Request to tag fic “Sansa-centric”: I’m not going to be doing this. This fic is not Sansa-centric, I have fans of J, S, and D who have all enjoyed it and are sticking around despite controversial decisions I’ve made. While it’s mostly a romantic angst fic, the political plot thus far has been wholly dedicated to Dany finding a way to get her throne. The ending will be successful in that endeavor. If you do a “find” search on the “entire work” option, Dany appears 569 times, Daenerys 153 (total = 722); Sansa 837; and Jon 732. I have a horrible habit of using epithets, and “queen” appears an additional 197 times, most of which are “the queen” or “his queen” in reference to Dany.

Advocating for Dany is encouraged, not discouraged: I never said I don’t want people to advocate for their faves. Especially since I’m still not as familiar with Dany, I don’t mind people calling out areas I’ve miswritten her. Someone mentioned that I only have Sansa and Jon reflect on Dany’s beauty and not her strength and accomplishments. That’s not entirely true, but a reread did show me I have ways to go on making that more evident. Part of the difference with her and Sansa being appreciated by the other/Jon was two-fold: 1) Sansa was coming into the already established relationship of Jonerys, and 2) Sansa gets trashed a lot more in fanfic that I’ve read. When I was mostly into Jonsa it was a few years back and writers were still kind to Dany. When I got into Jonerys fic, it was during/after S8 and the writers were absolutely TERRIBLE to Sansa. I had my reasons for making Sansa appeared loved by the other two; but it’s on my list of things to add in on edits to show ways that J and S appreciate her more than just being pretty.

The reason that comment was made was some threatening and uncomfortable comments made by Dany stans.: I got some pretty awful comments from other Dany stans and it made me very adverse to reading any comments about her because of it.

I am a fan of Dany.: I really hate having to defend myself to people just because Sansa is my fave. I wrote this fic in anticipation of the horrible things to come after 804: Who Would Ever Want to be Queen?, a decent amount of fics with D/S as the premier couple in a happy way, and even some J/S fics where she’s featured positively. I’ve also written plenty of meta, rants, and defenses of her on tumblr: book!Dany and saving Missandei; how Dany could have been pro-slavery out of bitterness and wasn’t; Jon won’t kill Dany; GRRM Does Not Want Us to Think Negatively of Daenerys in ADWD; How Dany + Sansa will meet; Way D&D Fucked Up Daenerys Targaryen #32423423; and more. Like, just because bad things are happening to a character doesn’t mean the author hates them.

 This OT3 is made of characters I deeply care for. I just also really like angst. This fic is tagged heavy angst and we’re only 2/3 of the way through part 1 of 2.  

OT3’s future together:

1) Dany’s first child. I’m confused why you think Dany is “unhappy” when she leaves them at King’s Landing. She’s concerned to realize she’s pregnant – she stutters through her excuses to go away before puking; Missandei describes Dany as thus: “The look on Dany’s face nearly breaks her Hand’s heart. The joy and worry mixed with so much pain. She’s already lost two children. Must she lose a third?” Dany is severely worried that this child will die and explicitly doesn’t “want to pain [Jon and Sansa] with the news” that they could lose a child. Dany is an incredibly giving, loving character, but she also has an aloofness to her. This isn’t necessarily a negative thing, but it’s something she’s dealt with in canon: “Do all gods feel so lonely? Some must, surely.” (ASOS, Dany VI). And while they’re happy, she’s still dealing with that and learning to trust her partners. That’s why she goes to Dragonstone to give birth.

2) Writing Health poly relationships: You point out “Poly relationships that are healthy, have three or more people who love and respect each other. Equally.” And that’s what I’m working towards. The problem between how we each view this is in that exact statement: I am working towards a healthy relationship. They aren’t in one yet. Everyone has some personal and plot issues to work through before they can get together. And for that to happen, various plot devices needed to occur. It is not the purposeful “destruction and misery of one [partner]” in this fic from the other partners’ POVs. It’s an authorial decision to make everyone pretty miserable before they can be triumphant. I’ve written a fair amount of angst and fics that are literally just characters suffering. It’s a dynamic I like to explore and this has been labeled Heavy Angst since the first chapter was posted, back when it was just Dany taking a nap and chatting with Sansa. If angst isn’t your thing, this isn’t the story for you. I’ve said it since the beginning. I’ve been doing reading in on this and how to write it better, but at the end of the day they aren’t a couple yet. They’re each individual parties thinking as individuals about their individual interests. They still need to realize they’re better together, and they aren’t there yet. If you want to know how that looks, checkout The Price of a Princess, a newer fic about their future as parents and rulers together.

3) Authorial plot devices do not equate abuse character behaviors. You said it was “abuse” that I had a plot device (the miscarriage) that is going to cause character and romantic development. That’s not abusive behavior. The characters are unaware of the events as they occur. A living human cannot abuse fictional characters. You might disagree with the choices I made about this plot, but it’s not abusive because only one of us is actually a person.

[sailorshadzter]

S8 GOT was a mess so it's not surprising everyone is trying to figure out why characters did what they did. I don't get the idea that Jon gave away his crown b/c he thought D was worthy of it. It still doesn't make him look good if that's what he thought since he didn't discuss it with Sansa or the NL's who made him king. And if he didn't want it Ned's trueborn heir was right there when he was crowned. What do u think? Its been months and i'm still upset about what they did to Jon's character.

i mean honestly...... I DONT KNOW ANON.

truly, i dont. 

none of season 8 made sense (and lets be real, the last few episodes of season 7 didn’t, either.)

if you’re looking at it without the idea of the “political jon” theory, it makes no sense. none at all. but, if you believe in political jon, as i do, you can piece things together. it’s not perfect and it wasn’t well done, but its the only way you can look at things and say “okay MAYBE this is what was happening” or “maybe this is why jon did this” honestly, thank god for fanfiction, it gives us everything the show didn’t. 

i think in the end, d&d just didnt give a fuck. it didnt matter to them because the show was almost over, it was going to get millions of views no matter what, and in the end... they still got paid.

in the end, they left us with more questions than answers & thats was so infuriating. why was the build up to the night king 7 seasons long, only to solve it in one episode? and no, im not mad that arya got the kill instead. im mad that this thing we heard about for the better part of 7 seasons was over in a single episode (that was dark as fuck & no one could see what was happening anyways) what was the point of R+L=J? why did brienne go to king’s landing in the end? why the fuck was BRAN king? why was jon punished for killing the tyrant queen that nobody wanted around, anyway? & dont even get me started on the fuck ups in the show like left behind coffee cups & water bottles. or gendry not knowing his own name???? what???

yeah, nothing really made sense in season 8. but when it comes right down to it, all i can say is d&d just didnt care anymore. why care when regardless of how fans reacted, they made bank? who cares how we, the audience, take it, when in the end they make millions and we’re left with the pieces of a show most of us have devoted 10+ years to. 

[esther-dot]

So Arianne used sex to manipulate Arys for her Queenmaker plot and no one in fandom bats an eye. But when we predict Pol!Jon saying that Jon is having sexual relationship with Dany to have her in North suddenly we are making Jon a rapist . Especially when Dany was in power. Fans accused us saying we are delusional. We have so many instances in books and show where characters used sex as weapons to manipulate others. I am not saying it's correct but it's not impossible.

It’s really hard to compare book to show like this because Martin seems to have a much more consistent view of things than D&D, but I’ll try to talk about it.

Arianne doesn’t have the political power that Jon who was king had. She felt desperate to right a wrong and used her limited means to do so. We aren’t meant to agree with her actions, but I can’t fully blame her either. Men used their daughters or sisters bodies to achieve political ends via marriage, I’m not gonna be upset when an ASOIAF woman decides to achieve her own ends via sex. Obviously if she abuses someone, I’ll condemn that, but Arianne wasn’t. Arys is an adult, obsessed with her, he wants this. If he were her prisoner or she was threatening the life of his people/family, it would be wrong. So, to me, she isn’t Jon in the scenario (she didn’t have many options) and she wasn’t Dany (denying a person free will).

The show writing around Jon was so strange who knows what the intention was. Jon had political power, Jon should have taken Sansa’s advice and sent someone else to speak with Dany, so if we were being fair, Jon should have recognized his error instead of coming home pretty pleased with himself. Jon certainly regrets going to Dragonstone after his initial meeting with Dany, but I think the way they wrote the J/D interaction, we were meant to realize Dany wouldn’t have come North unless she had fallen in love with Jon. That’s what I saw in s7, and it is what she said in s8 which is…well, it means they’re indicating it was the right call. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Martin makes Arianne’s choice lead to disaster (gets condemned by the narrative), while the show justifies Jon’s risk taking. Another reason it’s impossible to create an equivalence, the books and show were written with totally different frames of reference. I suppose the distinction between the two is that Jon’s choice was selfless (giving up power) whereas Arianne’s was about securing her own rights but that’s only true if we ignore the fact that in s7 they acted like Jon didn’t have to kneel and he did it anyway ie it was no longer about the greater good. The writing in s7-s8 was so contradictory it’s hard to argue anything specific, but they seemed to want us to believe that Dany’s armies and dragons helped save the world which signals to the audience he was right. 🤷🏻‍♀️

ANYWAY, I would argue that pol jon isn’t as offensive as people claim it is by pointing out that Jon was a captive. D&D made quite a point about that, so it wasn’t the case that he pursued any form of relationship there or seduced Dany or wanted anything but her help, and if given the option, he would have left when she refused to help. He isn’t a predator, he’s the prey. This is why it is an Ygritte 2.0 situation. He wants to protect the North but ends up in the hands of the enemy, an enemy who develops an interest in him. The show made a lot of comparisons, but they also contrasted it, in that, it never seemed to me that Jon developed sincere feelings for Dany. It felt like, given the opportunity her own interest in him presented, he extended his compassion and went along with her interest to influence her for the greater good. Again, not for his own political gain, he gave up his crown, but he needed her dragons and armies or they would all die, and he needed to keep her from doing anything like what she kept suggesting (riding off and burning KL, for example, frightening the North by swooping in on dragon back etc) because she was so volatile. I have no explanation for what happened/why they tried to simultaneously say Jon was a true believer while he was actively guiding Dany and trying to keep her from going full fire and blood s7 on, but he was clearly concerned by her tendencies and worked to temper them. So, yes, he was manipulating her even without a pol Jon interpretation, but it’s clearly the right thing to do considering the circumstances and what would have happened if she wasn’t being encouraged to not give into her impulses.

With Ygritte we know the entire time that Jon has a sexual relationship with her that he is loyal to the Watch, but no one called Jon a rapist then, so I don’t think it makes him a bad person if he remained loyal to the North while with Dany. In both instances Jon was a prisoner, the woman had the power in the relationship, and the woman was consistently pursuing sex with Jon even when he wasn’t interested. (This is very clear in s8 when Dany keeps coming on to Jon when he is drunk or after he’s pushed her away). That is objectively wrong. People were more invested in Dany than Ygritte, so I understand why they might take her perspective on things and feel betrayal on her behalf, the way they didn’t for Ygritte, but that discrepancy, the fact that we know Jon was right to remain loyal to the Watch and “betray” Ygritte, that’s what tells me the objections to our interpretation of Jon s7-8 isn’t actually about applying a consistent standard. I’d be much more inclined to be sympathetic to criticism of our theories if the fandom acknowledged that book Ygritte is creepy and that Dany was creepy af in s8. Whether Jon loved those characters or not, they mistreated him, and if fans can’t admit that, we can’t have an honest conversation about the situation Jon was in. If they don’t want to consider the power dynamics at play, whether or not Jon was free to do what he wanted without dire repercussions, we can’t have a real conversation about his motivations or actions or any theories regarding them.

Ultimately, the fault is with D&D though. They knew their endgame and instead of committing to it and writing a path to their end, they wrote contradictory nonsense. Characters can make choices we don’t like, but it has to make sense for them to do so. D&D didn’t make those choices make sense. It’s very possible Jon and Dany don’t have a sexual relationship in the books, pol Jon was mainly an attempt to make sense of what show Jon was doing when we knew what Dany was about to do, but D&D ended the show without ever addressing the nonsense they made him do for two seasons straight. So frustrating!

[mebongster87]

Making sense of S08E01

While some of the parts of Episode 1 have turned out as predicted/expected including Daenerys facing opposition from the Northern Lords and their displeasure at Jon having bent the knee, Jon being told the truth of his parentage, Bran telling Daenerys about the situation of the Wall and wightViserion, there is one thing that did surprise me to some extent and that is Jon and Daenerys going for a joy-ride on Drogon and Rhaegal amidst the chaos and imminent danger the North faces now that the Wall has fallen.

I am not sure when we see this sequence but if it happens AFTER the Northern Lords Assembly with Daenerys and Jon and Tyrion, then it makes sense for Jon to don his PoliticalJon cap and whisk Daenerys away to not only assuage her fears and discomfiture but to reaffirm his “love” for her. Cue the cringe-worthy romance and dragon-riding. I am firmly on team Not make Jon ride a lizard WMD but oh well.

From the politicalJon standpoint, it makes sense as to why Jon is doing what he is doing. However, let’s put aside this theory and look for other potential explanations of why we see Jon riding Rhaegal and seemingly being in love with Daenerys from a more objective and general perspective. The audience thinks Jon and Daenerys are in love, so to pick things up from where they ended last season, it is only natural for them to act that way. Daenerys is truly in love with him and EC is acting her heart out in demonstrating that. The doubts lie with KH’s expressions and while I believe in PoliticalJon, most of GA does not subscribe to this theory (they think Jon is honorable to the bone, yawn!!!). The GA think A Song of Ice and Fire means A love song of Jon and Daenerys. While it’s clearly far from that, the GA firmly believe that. D&D are making a show for the masses, giving them J/D romance is their way of keeping them happy. The real catch lies in what happens after.

As I mentioned, there is another way to explain this segment that is reminiscent of something that we have seen before. (reiterating LF’s “everything that happens will be something that you have seen before” line because it is pertinent)

Jon and Daenerys looking all loved up at the start of the S8 is to ensure that the GA and their old nans are lulled into this belief. 

Jon “could be in love” with Daenerys, simply because he does not know the full extent of her journey through Yunkai, Astapor, Meereen. What he hears are the good things he has been told by Tyrion and Missandei, both completely drunk on the Khaleesi Koolaid. He knows Daenerys went to deal with the Lannisters, but he does not know about the Tarlys being burned alive, at least not at the point in the episode when this dragon romance montage happens. Tyrion and Varys never tell him what she did to the Tarlys. Killing helpless, outnumbered, and overpowered Lannisters....yeah Jon does not know about that either. He remembers Sansa’s lessons about not trusting Cersei and the Lannisters are his enemy foremost. Additionally, what Jon sees is her coming to their rescue during Wight Hunt and given how useful the dragons were in obliterating hundreds of wights (even though the walkers and NK are immune to fire), he still thinks that “Daenerys is our only chance”....it’s a misjudgment on Jon’s part. He is incorrect and just does not fully know it yet. This isn’t the first time he has misjudged his enemies abilities....remember Ramsay and his battle nous at the Battle of the Bastards. Ramsay beat Jon in his own game of planning the battle out, pincer move and all that. In time, even Jon will come to realise that dragonfire is not the answer to defeat the NK.

So safe to say, it would not be too farfetched to think Jon is in love with her. The GA is certainly convinced, so kudos to D&D.

This J/D romance is a callback to S05E04 The Sons of the Harpy....when we see a very moving, heartfelt, and emotional scene between Stannis and Shireen...where Stannis talks about how he refused to send a baby Shireen away to Valyria for her greyscale and how he left no stone unturned to cure her and says “You are the Princess Shireen of House Baratheon and you are my daughter”

and the background music swells when Shireen rushes to hug Stannis and this moment is so touching..so emotional that it really goes a long way to make Stannis look like a proper human who is a parent to a wonderful and innocent child.......right???

Think again.

How long did it take to get from that to this, when Stannis burns Shireen because he wants to fulfill his destiny in an episode titled S05E09 The Dance of the Dragons???? 

Not even 6 episodes!!!!!

Even now, book fans and show fans think Stannis the Mannis was the rightful ruler and have a hard time coming to terms to Shireen’s burning. However, if you have paid attention to this show, all the signs were there...right from the start. In fact, we are introduced to Stannis for the first time in a scene, where he is burning his brother by law on the Dragonstone beach.....is it any surprise that he would not burn his own daughter who has king’s blood to become the Prince that was promised???? Shireen’s death by fire was shocking and disturbing AF but was clearly not unexpected if you had read the signs and the writing on the wall.

How long do we think it is going to take Jon and Daenerys to go from that “loved-up” to this????

image courtesy @brujhahii

All I am saying is that we believe in Political Jon theory, we believe in Dance of the Dragons 2.0, the GA either does not know about these or does not think will ever happen. We must be delulu Jonsas, if we are coming up with these theories right?????

Well, think again.....because D&D are absolutely coming for the GA with this shocking sledgehammer of making Jon and Daenerys fight.

They fucked and now they will fight. Jon and Daenerys are fundamentally different individuals not because they are “ice” and “fire”, but because one is a defender, “the shield that guards the realms of men” while the other is a conqueror who takes what she wants with “fire and blood”. They want fundamentally different things with their lives.

This season will be a season of revelations, not just for the characters as they figure out who they are, what they want and what they have always been...but also for the audience to wake up and smell the coffee and come to terms with who and what these characters are. It is a season of “truth”. They will make us choose between Jon and Daenerys and can it get any more ironic than the fact that in a promo named “Together” we see the fraction of Jon-Daenerys alliance taking place???

We have a shot of two dragons flying, from the dragon-flying montage possibly, followed by this scene of Jon walking away and leaving Daenerys...indicating the collapse of their alliance. (I personally think this shot happens in context with Sansa’s kidnapping plot but we’ll see.)

“The hero is the villain from the other side”-GRRM and now we will get to see that.

[nyarnamaitar]

About that NYT article...

Emilia’s latest NYT article has pissed me off for a number of reasons, but I really don’t think it means that we should be anxious about Dany’s S8 arc. Or, in other words: dark!Dany won’t be a thing, FFS. I love the Dany/Jonerys fandom, but some of you really need to stop letting Dany antis’/J*nsa shippers’ rhetoric get to you.

I’ll try to break down my reasoning:

1. Apparently, Maureen Dowd, the author of the article, is quite infamous for her stance on real-life women. She poses as a feminist, yet she made quite the career out of bashing, amongst others, Hillary Clinton. This doesn’t mean that she hates Daenerys, but every piece of writing -- and certainly an opinion piece, which is what the NYT article is -- directly or indirectly reflects the author’s views and well, let’s just say that I’m... Wary of Dowd. I’ve seen Dany fans complain that this press tour has been overwhelmingly negative for Dany and while I agree that the Northern lords and their stans are wankers with shriveled up penises who need to get their priorities straight, I wouldn’t say S8′s promo has been that bad for Dany fans at all. Dany heavily figures in S8′s advertising, photoshoots, and trailers and most of this material consists out Dany and Jon as a couple.

2. The NYT article content that pisses me off the most are the comments on House Targaryen and how the Targaryens are equated with madness, which implies that Dany’s questionable leadership choices are a consequence of her parentage, which is... Problematic to say the least. One does not have to be mentally ill or have a mentally ill father to make bad choices. As not to stray off-topic too much, I’m just going to say that I really dislike the way this fandom talks about mental illness or how mental illness is capitalised upon to discredit a character one doesn’t like. However, going back to the NYT article, these anti Targaryen comments are almost exclusively the author’s and based on Dowd’s track record, I’m inclined to dismiss them. Having read Fire and Blood, ASoIaF fans -- or at least those with basic reader comprehension skills -- know that most of the Targaryens weren’t mad and that a lot of Targaryen kings have done good things for Westeros. 

3. As for Emilia’s comments, there are a number of things I want to address. 

(A) First of all, it seems like the Tarlys’ execution will be a big deal in S8 (*sigh*), which is why I think that when Emilia talks about Dany’s ‘Targaryen impulses’ (my words), she’s mostly talking about the loot train battle and the subsequent burning of the Tarlys. Although (and strangely enough) Dave Hill has come out and stated that Dany made the right call in executing Randyll and Dickon, the show is obviously using this scene to manufacture drama by teasing mad queen!Dany. I really wish this weren’t the case, but alas, it is. That being said, I still agree with Dave Hill. In-universe, the Tarlys’ execution wasn’t exceptional at all and it pisses me off that Dany gets shit for doing something lots of other characters have done, too. 

(B) I don’t think Emilia’s comments are entirely off the bat. Dany does have darker impulses and in the books, Dany herself is very much aware of them. She continuously questions her own judgement and sanity, which convinces me that she won’t ever become truly mad. Fuck that noise. 

(C) I find it... Unfortunate that Emilia’s buying into the House Targaryen = madness crap, but we should keep in mind that we don’t know the context of the interview, the amount of time Emilia received to adequately answer Dowd’s questions, etc. Plus, I’m quite fond of Emilia and I don’t want to bash her at all, BUT a lot of the GoT actors don’t have a particularly good grasp on their characters. Maisie’s interpretation of Arya is atrocious. Sophie’s comments on Sansa’s character arc are laughably bad (The warrior of Winterfell? Really?). And while Emilia loves Dany, she’s not an exception. She doesn’t know the lore as well as we, the fans, do. It’s sad, but it’s true.

So, in short: I don’t think the NYT article “proves” that dark!Dany/mad queen!Dany will be a thing in S8. I think it attemps to emphasise that Dany has darker impulses and that she’s made mistakes that will haunt her in S8, i.e. the execution of the Tarlys and its effect on Sam. I agree with the article in the sense that, yes, Dany is flawed — just like pretty much all of the ASoIaF/GoT characters are. However, I vehemently disagree with how the execution of the Tarlys is treated by both D&D and the anti Dany section of the GoT fandom.

Based on everything we've received so far, including BoatSexBaby’s and Friki’s spoilers, nothing indicates that Dany will become dark/darker in S8. The NYT article just serves to foment the GoT hype AND highlight the darker aspects of Dany’s character that the audience should already be familiar with. It doesn’t tell us anything particularly new about Dany’s arc and character in S8.

Plus, I don’t think we pay enough attention to the good things the NYT article has to say about Dany. It recognises the double standard female rulers have to face in Westeros; it praises Dany’s character arc and iconic status in the show; it ends on the note that if Donald Trump lived in Westeros, Dany would be the one to overthrow him, etc. These arguments are hardly negative and don’t point to dark!Dany/mad queen!Dany at all. 

So, while some parts of the NYT article are dumb (and even upsetting), I don’t think we should be very alarmed by them. My opinions on Dany’s character and storyline in S8 haven’t changed since the article’s publication and I truly believe we should all calm down a bit.

[ladyandtheghost]

“Show your work”: D&D were simply too dumb to follow their own equations...

Going through my feed and seeing all the brilliant metas and parallels and interpretations people still come up with so long after S8, it still boggles the mind where D&D literally “lost the plot” with storylines they’ve pushed on us for seasons on end, like Political!Jon and/or Jonsa. 

All the hints of Jon being “smarter” than Robb than everyone gives him credit for

All the foreshadowing

All the parallels 

All the tropes 

All the jealousy

All the protectiveness

 All the tension

All the prophecies

All the camera shots

All the dialogue 

All of this^^ and more that makes no sense in retrospect with the outcome we got

Bringing GoT to a logical conclusion was almost like solving a maths problem: 

D&D followed the right equations and did most the calculations correctly along the way...but for some reason ended up coming out with the wrong result that makes no sense because all the previous numbers were correct and should have amounted to a certain outcome...

Instead they chose to disregard all their previous work and just put a random number they believed would be more popular with the audience. 

Even R+L=J as a theory name reminds us that GoT used to follow logic. Theories like R+L=J did not come out of thin air, they were “worked out” following hints and facts and logical developments in the books and show. 

When we say that “J” is the result, we have no problem “showing our work” and how we got to this conclusion. 

Jon slavishly following Dani on the path of genocide and Sansa ending up on her own in the end are two results were I would very much like to see the “work” that can be traced back to logically lead up to this ending. 

It can’t. 

It’s the panic result you put when you have no time left, you don’t know what you’re doing anymore and hope the teacher doesn’t notice your bullshit. 

By the time they wrote S8, D&D had everything ready, everything neatly laid out, but for some reason they got lazy. And they knew it. People who are not committed enough to see an epic story like GoT through to the end - and by end I mean its LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS - should never have been given this assignment in the first place. 

I just hope that Martin will take the path of logic and follow his own previous “work” rather than cater to fan service and abandon all pretence of writing a coherent story. 

In the end, It *is* still his story, no matter how much D&D drove it against a wall. 

(So here’s to hoping for Winds of Winter in 2020...)

[thestupidhelmet]

RE: J/H music. can I suggest some songs from Harry Styles' album Fine Line. there are a few that made me think of JH sooo bad, either in canon or related to a few common tropes/headcanons I've found in fanfics. most of them make me think of s8 JH, or post s8, tho there are a few that refer to their summer together and their relationship. Golden, Watermelon Sugar, Cherry, Falling, To Be So Lonely, She, Sunflower vol.6, and Fine Line (this one FOR SURE fits JH)

Posting this for the Zennies (and Harry Styles fans) out there. :D