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catilinas · 2 years ago

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ok now that it's not 3am hopefully i can be more coherent. but also please bear in mind that i have watched through the whole show a whole: once. extremely recently. and also haven't read oedipus rex for approx one million years, and have Also only actually Studied seneca's oedipus, which is fucked up in a slightly different direction. and also departs from sophocles' oedipus in having tireisias literally summon laius' ghost to ask who killed him. so that's a fun parallel to think about!

anyway. the point i only made about two thirds of last night probably ends up in the vicinity of: yes it does turn out that oedipus / JGY did do those things! but how are the internal audience of The Wider Community, and the external audience of You The Viewer made to be convinced of this? in both cases narrative devices (the external audience already knowing the oedipus myth / fate being real in greek tragedy probably / prophecy real / Focalisation Via Ghost / also i am thinking about how sisi's story is revealed by narration and flashback simultaneously. does that happen Anywhere else? would it be as believable if it was just her narration, without the seeming veracity lent by the narrative device of visual flashback? i think about this often) privilege the revelation of a particular angle of a story, And give that revelation a level of certainty/authority that you wouldn't get from A Character Just Saying The Same Thing In An Argument.

i think also girard (hi girard) would think it important to say that Which angle of a story the narrative is made to privilege is. arbitrary is the best word i can think of. not in that an author is making arbitary decisions about the direction of the narrative (+ sophocles Isn't really able to Change the narrative, only to arrange how it happens), but in that: in the moment of mimetic crisis, Anyone could be scapegoated / sacrificed to/by the narrative like this. but the act of sacrifice (including the creation of the Guilt Narrative, the truth of which Does Not Matter to the violence being enacted) functions to obscure the arbitrary nature of the sacrifice.

which! (i'm about to ignore oedipus completely rip) a) explains why JGY doesn't die for reasons to do with his actual crimes ('The attribution of guilt that henceforth passes for “true” differs in no way from those attributions that will henceforth be regarded as “false,” except that in the case of the “true” guilt no voice is raised to protest any aspect of the charge.') ('sacrifice is primarily an act of violence without risk of vengeance.'). not getting into the depths of legal / judicial systems as sacrificial but it's like. 'guilt' / 'justice needing to be done' is more about designating certain targets of violence as acceptable and then carrying out that violence in a way that leaves no risk / possibility of vengeance on their behalf than anything else.

and b) literally that is JGY's whole point to WWX in the convo in ep48 that made me the most insane out of everything in the entire show because. he just kept tweeting out the mimetic theory thesis statements. something along the lines of 'peace' (whose peace?) relying on the existence of conflict against acceptable targets of violence (/someone/ is going to get scapegoated. what does it take to redirect that?). and again. until the violence actually kicks in, the direction is arbitrary. but then because JGY is saying all this after the violence has occurred, Of Course the target was inevitably going to be WWX ('A particular version of events succeeds in imposing itself; it loses its polemical nature in becoming the acknowledged basis of the myth, in becoming the myth itself.') ('The old pattern of each against another gives way to the unified antagonism of all against one.').

(and ok uh. i'm still midway through the novel but got to wwx losing his shit at nightless city literally yesterday and went Absolutely Nuts over the narrative refusing to describe events basically as soon as jyl dies—like no, you the reader Do Not get to know what actually happened! you only get to see the polemical version of events already having succeeded in becoming the acknowledged myth! augh.)

so what if JGY's list of reasons for WWX inevitably being scapegoated sounds equally applicable to himself. that's the crisis of differentiation babes. but anyway. when the fact that 'guilty' and 'requiring justice' and 'being (made) an acceptable target of violence' are related concepts and can flow into one another but are very extremely not Equivalent. and! are attributed to a person less by being True than by a particular narrative internal to the story managing to Stick. when that fact is emphasised via the Main Narrative being very visible about also doing the exact same thing.

wrt 2) honestly who is to say creon Wasn't trying to overthrow him. that is kind of a vibe in oedipus at colonus tbh. am i only going With that vibe because the existence of that narrative of potential guilt is making creon seem very scapegoatable. is it because creon is oedipus' brother-in-law and Of Course hashtag Enemy Brothers would have that conflict. Of Course that conflict will continue in eteokles and polyneikes. who can say. also was it in antigone the musical where there's this suggestion that creon totallyyyyyy was doing fucked up shit and maybe causing their civil war. that was fun.

and 3) i would soooooo read that but also i NEED to know who the equivalent to antigone would be in this situation! + the theban civil war <3

#this play isn't even really about the incest! it's about the nature of fate and the cost of truth!!#<- prev YEAH. and now im thinking about that one bit of uhhhhhh violence and the sacred#'If we eliminate the testimony brought against Oedipus in the second half of the tragedy then the conclusion of the myth#far from seeming a sudden lightning flash of the truth striking down the guilty party and illuminating all the mortal participants#seems nothing more than the camouflaged victory of one version of the story over the other#the polemical version over its rival—the community’s formal acceptance of Tiresias’s and Creon’s version of the story#thereafter held to be the true and universal version the verity behind the myth itself'#rip i realise i am a) pasting literally a paragraph in the tags and b) thinking abt jgy as oedipus instead#(he Did have a patricide moment though. like that is notably a thing that did also happen if under very different circumstances)#but mostly i am thinking about how the revelations of jgy's crimes are consistently Focalised Through Other Stuff#like are you seeing the actual thing or like. someone else talking about a letter written about someone else knowing about etc etc etc#and there is a limit to how much of that is just because the protagonist isn't able to see it Directly#but the result is like. im not going to paste another girard paragraph but there IS one about how all the accusations against oedipus Are#Just An Argument with tiresias (and creon?) and it's only the injection via prophecy etc of what an audience Knows is in the myth that#breaks the stalemate of This Is Just An Argument by Revealing the crimes the audience already knows were fated#i think the way the narrative (can it count as a narrative if it's a play) of oedipus rex relies on an audience knowing and trusting a myth#is v similar to how the narrative of mdzs/cql uses focalisation to allow The Victory Of One Version Of The Story Over The Other etc

@catilinas I am reading this tag analysis on the Oedipus post like 👀👀👀 and wANT TO HEAR MORE because

1.) The discrepancies between the version of events in CQL that we see unfold as viewers in real time and the version we get from NMJ during the Empathy sequence are a constant subject of rumination for me, and they're yet another example of seeing JGY through not one but two sets of filters, and NMJ's version of events is the last we see, and thus forms our lasting impression, but it's so far removed from the originals you don't even realize how much they've omitted unless you watch them back-to-back. Meanwhile, Tiresias's account is one of the first things we hear, but it colors everything that comes after it because We All Know The Story, the characters themselves fixate on it, and everything unfolds more or less in real time so we the viewers don't have time to forget anything and never got to see Oedipus or Jocasta or Laius outside of this moment.

2.) something something JGY claims that someone tried/ is trying to harm him every time he's confronted, and Oedipus accuses Creon of plotting to overthrow him

3.) what if "JGY lives" AU in the style of Oedipus at Colonus

#hi. hello. it's violence and the sacred (1972) time.#also if the readmore does not work for some reason: I Am So Sorry.#mdzsposting #oedipus #girard #incest mention —#beeps

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shitpostingkats · 3 years ago

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Epsilon, Carolina, and Parallel Character Arcs

To me, there are two lines that stick out from the freelancer collection. The culmination of the two characters that play center stage for the entirety of the duology, Epsilon and Carolina. Their stories wrap in two of my absolute favorite, gutpunching, and heartfelt lines of the entire show:

"I forget you."

and

"Your past doesn't define who you are. It just gives you the starting point for who you're going to be."

Epsilon and Carolina's quotes work in parallel to each other; on one hand, Church making the deliberate choice to lose the memory, to stop, for the sake of someone he cares about. He forgets. And Carolina, making the choice to hold that close, to move on, for the sake of herself. She remembers.

What makes this absolutely fascinating is they’re following the same story, healing from the same pain.

Red vs Blue is all about memory. Unabashedly, the show has been very vocal about its primary theme since the day they first decided to have actual writing. But one thing I think doesn't get enough attention is how this is carried over and represented in season 9, the season that flashes between the memory unit and PFL's early days. In Church, the usage is obvious: he's living in a memory, a projection of his old life. Might as well make it a good one. But the other side of the season is also a recollection. It's Carolina's memory. We get to see the good times, before things went wrong, before people died. We get to see the twins working in tandem, the team functioning. Carolina and York banter. Wash is still the goofy rookie. They drive through the city listening to music and crack jokes and show off. Sure, it shows the beginning of some of the tragedy to come, but the freelancer side of the season ends with a scene between Carolina and the director, saying 'this was the warmup. From now on, it will be serious.'

Church and Carolina are both remembering their teams. The people they love. And how their lives got ruined by project freelancer. Those moments, those memories, are going to be the driving force and rage behind their team up, their quest for revenge. The idea that these people, this family, was hurt by one man and his stupid goals, is their shared trauma that leads to them being the driving force of the plot.

Even in season 9, we see Church trying to hold on to his memories. To make sure he has all his facts right, that everything, down to the smallest detail, reflects real life. Eventually, he uses this for closure. He finds Tex, and sees the rage she's carrying in her. Not at what the director did. Honestly, she seems to be mostly over her past as Allison seeing as it, you know, wasn't her. But the same idea, that so many lives were lost, all for the sake of someone that wasn't her. That she didn't get to make her own choices.

Same trauma, different result.

She sees Epsilon, trying so hard to remember, to hold on to everything, and she says "hey." She tells him off. She says ‘Even if these memories matter to you, holding on to them is hurting me.’ So Epsilon lets go. He decides that these memories aren't going to save anyone, they're just going to keep both of them from healing.

Tex was the reason Epsilon was even created. Like he says, "You were the memory. You were the key."

Epsilon is memory. He's the key. And he choses to throw it away, so it can never be unlocked again. It's bittersweet but it isn't fair, her being brought back over and over, her very autonomy violated, for the sake of someone else’s story.

And hey! That's another theme he shares with Carolina!

The idea that the stories we see in television, the ones guided by trauma, aren't always correct, because your pain doesn't mean you can hurt other people. And not in a "oh you want to Kill the person responsible for your trauma and that makes you a Bad Person and you will eventually have a Change of Heart." (Though that does, kinda, happen, buts it’s way more nuanced and well written and makes much more sense for their personal arcs than the stereotypical 'uwu murder is bad' trope.) No, Carolina and Church are never decried for their goals, for wanting to lash out or obsessively remember. They get called out when their ideals, the ones explicitly labeled 'noble' or 'romantic' by popular media, hurt the people who are trying to help them. Church compulsively follows Tex through layers of memories, chasing the girl he's determined to love. In any other story, that would be sweet. Carolina wants the director dead, wants the man who hurt her and her friends killed. In any other story, that would be heroic. But both of them get called out for their behavior.

“Romance happens in movies. In real life, it’s called stalking.”

And, interestingly, by the people who they aren’t hurting. In the memory unit, Tucker, walking restraining order, is the first one to make Church question if what he’s doing is wrong. Carolina is berated for her treatment of the reds and blues by Wash. Wash. Wash, the guy who’s the only one other than Carolina and Epsilon who knows the entirety of what the director did, the guy who’s carrying the traumas of three different people in his head, the guy who should want the director dead more than anyone. But he also has his experiences from the previous seasons. He’s the one who steps up, like Tucker did, and tells her ‘I know books and tv have taught you that this is okay, that you can treat people like side characters in your personal story, but I’ve been down that road. In reality, it just makes you a jerk.’

Trauma does not give you a free pass to be a bad person.

Throughout season 10, our story is now flip flopping between Carolina-and-Epsilon, and the final days of project freelancer. The bad days. Connie’s death and Maine’s degradation and Tex’s betrayal and the final mutiny. And, most importantly to Carolina, her final fight with York.

Though it pains me to do so, I’m going to pull a quote from season 15.

“Sometimes, I think York was my chance at a fresh start. And I threw it down an elevator shaft.”

Carolina is fighting between the two sides of herself, the parts she sees as being “splintered” by the project. The good leader, the team commander, the captain of her little family, versus the ruthless soldier, the headstrong killer, the ‘best of the best’. She spends time tracking down all the old bodies of her teammates, trying to reconcile how much she loved them with the fact that they all betrayed each other. Connie’s helmet, Tex’s crashed ship, and, once again.

York.

When Epsilon shows her the recording of York, she sees her chance at a ‘fresh start’. She sees her old teammate, her almost love, the man who was willing to die to do the right thing. Epsilon tells her “I know what it’s like to spend your whole life chasing ghosts.”

From his perspective, this is crucial advice. The choice to stop remembering, to move on and let go, is what kept the woman he loved being forced to live, over and over again. It's the choice that got him out of the memory unit, that allowed him to overcome his grief and have a semblance of closure.

But to Carolina, the memory of York was the only thing giving her reservations. The memory of ‘do the right thing, no matter the consequences’. The memory of a family, of friends, of jokes in the pelican and a lighter that says Errera and the idea that she got more from the project than years of hell and trauma. The idea that she needs to ‘let go’ is exactly what breaks her.

Again, same history. Same pain. Different ways they come out of it, different ways they heal.

From then on, Carolina is dead set on killing the director. She’s ruthless, vicious, and downright suicidal. Epsilon, who was just beginning to stitch himself together, feeds into it, with newfound whiplash after getting his full memory back. Together, they become a dysfunctional little battle team of loathing, eventually driving away any help they had and dooming their vengeance to failure.

(Of course, they only survive because the very people they abandoned look at eachother and decide ‘They were hurt. They hurt us. But this thing they’re chasing, this trauma, is what brought us together in the first place. And we’re going to hold on to that companionship, the shared history, instead of the actions made by someone mad with grief.’ You know, kinda like the original pfl chose not to do.) (Honestly, people really undervalue the sim troopers in my opinion. They went through almost the exact same thing the PFL team did, just on a broader, less personalized, level. The fact that they look around and, without even knowing it, choose love and sticking together the exact same way Carolinas' previous family didn’t, is hecking underappreciated.)

But I digress. Honestly, I think up until the very end, Carolina planned to kill the director. This wasn't a big lie, she wasn’t on the fence. She really planned to put a bullet in his skull.

I think the reason she didn't, the reason she walks away, is the usual strange trifecta that the series had been running on since season 6: a combination of Alison, the director, and the ai he created because of her loss.

When she enters the room, the first thing she sees, no, hears, is her mother. Her mother, reminding her husband, reminding them both, to never say goodbye. A message from almost literally beyond the grave to not miss her, not mourn her, but just to. Think of her as not being here right now. Carolina wonders if she should have decried her teammates' memories the way that she did.

Next, she sees her father. A man who, in his own words, “has a mind more filled with memory than it is with hope.” Honestly, props to everyone on that scene, because up until then rvb had some really rocky human animation, but that moment, that frame, is so bleeding with tiredness and hopelessness that it hurts every time. She sees a man who is so overcome with mourning, with seeing someone he loved as “gone”, that it killed hundreds of people. I think Carolina decides not to kill him, not because he looks so lost, but because she sees what she will turn into, if she puts a gun to his head.

And finally, my sweet darling Epsilon. God fucking damn you and your funky little robot monologues that tear my heart out of my chest. Epsilon screams at the director, lists his crimes, finally lets all the deaths that have been piling up spill out of him, and there's a very telling line that I adore with the entirety of my soul.

“I’m here to remember what you’ve done. Someone has too.”

Because that's what Epsilon sees himself as. Not a person, not a fragment, just a memory chip to use to hold the director accountable. That's literally how Epsilon is introduced to the cast; the piece of evidence that can testify against project freelancer. He thinks he’s just a receipt.

But Carolina hears this and thinks ‘I can remember them.’ All season, she’s been thinking about the final days, the betrayal and the scheming and the family that ripped itself apart. But she needs to remember the earlier flashbacks, the joking team and the days when things were easy, too. She’s been living this season in a memory, and she didn’t even make it a good one.

Like Church, she chooses to fight for her team, for her memories, and for herself.

“Your past doesn’t define who you are. It just gives you a starting point for who you're going to be.”

So Carolina chooses memory the exact way Epsilon didn’t. She kisses her father on the head and assures him he’ll be remembered not as the director, but as Leonard. She walks out, decides to let herself remember York and Tex and Wash and Connie and the twins.

It’s no surprise that the season ends on an anecdote about Allison. Carolina, the woman who’s remembering her, and Church, the ai who forgot. These two people, who both loved her, albeit, in wildly different ways, swapping a story that isn’t tainted by PFL, just a small cheerful story. They aren’t mourning her, not like the director did. They’re acknowledging that she’s gone, that her death shaped their lives, their shared trauma, and they’re digging through the pieces to find something they want to hold close, something to build themselves on anew.

Your past doesn’t define who you are. Your memories shape who you become. But you get to pick which ones you keep, which ones you hold on to. You get to decide which experiences are your starting point for who you’re going to be.

#red vs blue #rvb #rvb carolina #rvb epsilon #essays #listen I just have a lot of thoughts about the Legitimately Good writing the middle seasons of rvb had and I want to talk about them

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fishyfod · 4 years ago

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Winter & Yang Parallels and Contrasts

A comparison of Winter Schnee and Yang Xiao Long, and how they are shaped by their society and circumstances.

Or a thinly veiled excuse to gush about two characters I like

[gif by 5by5brittana]

This is split into four parts:

Pre Volume 1 backstory and characteristics

Relationship with younger siblings

Parallel Journeys between V1-5 and V7-8

Rough Speculation for Volume 8

Spoilers for RWBY V8 E1-7. Under the cut because this turned out very long.

Also, take this with a grain of salt? I wrote this for fun. This really is just, me going off the deep end.

I. Childhood and Upbringing

Winter and Yang are both the eldest children of their respective families, and have spent most of their lives growing up in the shadows of their legacies: the Schnee name and the fallout of team STRQ. These legacies are tragedies, and for better and for worse Winter and Yang are in the unique position where they also know the before, the brief time their families were whole (at least on paper). As their families broke apart, Winter and Yang have felt the need to fill the parent role for their younger siblings (more on that later).

This is the curse of the parent-sibling*, in which the lines between adulthood, childhood and parenthood are all blurred together when one is still a child. Winter grew up as Willow and Jacques’s facade of a marriage slowly fell apart and Willow turned to alcohol, leaving Weiss and Whitley under the care of Jacques - a manipulative abuser - and someone had to step up between him and Weiss and Whitley. Klein, it should be noted, was the exception to the rule, as most staff reported to Jacques. Yang never had Raven, she lost Summer and for a while Taiyang after he shut down - someone had to take care of Ruby. Qrow just couldn’t be a full-time replacement to any of them

* [I believe the professional term is “parentification”.]

[RWBY Official Manga Anthology Vol. 4: I Burn]

This is Winter and Yang’s own personal tragedy, and as inspiring as it might seem from the outside - a mature, responsible child that helps parent their younger sibling - it is not at all healthy for the child in question. It does not matter if things might’ve improved later, the damage has already been done. Parent-siblings tend to become caretakers as well, and this manifests in both Yang and Winter, albeit in very different ways.

Which leads me to the next point, which is to emphasize the differences in both of these scenarios. The expectations from the Schnee name are very much a product of high-class society and Atlas superiority, which is very different from STRQ’s private falling out. Winter is roughly 7 and 10 years older than Weiss and Whitley, so she’s about 12 when Weiss (5 at the time) would become more aware of Jacques’s behavior, 17 when Willow began drinking. Yang was about 6 when Summer disappeared and the trek to the woods happened, and it is unknown for how long Taiyang shut down. Willow became seriously depressed just before Winter left for Atlas, whereas Taiyang eventually got back on his feet. Winter was abused by Jacques, Yang was abandoned by Raven.

Winter’s speech often involves doublespeak with hidden meanings, a strict deference to decorum, and a fair share of veiled (or unveiled) insults. She is closed off, and rarely engages in open physical contact. In private with her siblings or close friends, she tends to be softer, and may hug or pat on one’s shoulders. She has learnt this behavior in order to navigate Atlas society and quell her father whilst protecting herself and her siblings. Unfortunately, Klein appears to be the only staff to put the children’s needs before his servitude to Jacques, so even Winter’s interactions with Weiss and Whitley are soured by this prim, and at times, hurtful behavior; even then appearances must be kept. This is why Winter doesn’t act like a typical “Mom friend”, and why her need to take care of others manifests differently: in her conscience and willpower to protect others. Hence, she trains to become a huntress, the personification of protection, a way to help despite her difficulties expressing that need more conventionally.

Yang is open and outgoing, an easy conversationalist and very physically affectionate with her peers. She is upbeat, and also tactful at the same time. Why? Some of it has to do with her severe abandonment issues, making her more prone to bask in her connections to others. Equally important are the experience and circumstances she had growing up. She grew up in Patch, a relatively small community that is at best middle class. She had Ruby - only two years younger - to entertain and to teach, and in such a small household that also means many chores and mundane responsibilities to take on. By all accounts, Taiyang made enough of a recovery from his depression to parent well enough, and seems a fairly affectionate person himself. With all this encouragement and learnt skills, little hinders Yang from caring for Ruby and others openly and proudly. Ergo, Yang acts like a “Mom friend”.

These are Winter and Yang’s main personas, one uncaring and one unreserved. It is only natural that away from prying eyes or when put on the edge, they drop the facade and act contrary to it. For example, when Winter is angry or provoked, she lashes out and loses her composure. Usually, when Yang is angry she acts quite cold and restrained in her anger, and tries to project an unaffected persona. Alone with those she loves, Winter is more open and talkative, where Yang allows herself to be melancholic.

Yang may be open and candid, and could even be described as wearing her heart on her sleeve, but she is extremely reticent when admitting weakness or sharing her own personal grievances. Which is incredibly like Winter, though she is also taciturn in general. They have a tendency to avoid creating truly personal connections with others. They’re both used to putting on mask of strength and reassurance, and are quite adept at controlling their emotions (to a point). This is a defensive mechanism - they emulate the adults in their lives (who know the values of keeping up appearances) since they do not believe they will be taken seriously otherwise. They have internalized that no one will act on their behalf unless they offer something in return. By acting quasi-maternally to their younger siblings, they continue this act because it’s how they think a responsible adult should raise children.

[RWBY Official Manga Anthology Vol. 2: Mirror, Mirror]

The “practice” in home on their sisters developed in them the belief they should put others before themselves, even outside their family. Selfless as it may be, without moderation this behavior could be quite unhealthy. The lack of concern to themselves makes them feel lost and without purpose, with low self esteem and self-destructive tendencies.

Winter gives up the luxury of the Schnee inheritance for servitude in the army, a perfect place for someone who believes herself expendable. She says her personal feelings don’t matter, and is willing to throw down her life for others. Sounds familiar? Yang wants to become a huntress, which conveniently allows her to help others while drifting along life with no true purpose. She has very low self esteem initially, and her semblance literally benefits her taking hits for everyone else.

Intertwined with this, is a desire to find purpose, and to find value in oneself. They seek independence and a sense of control. For Winter, this meant training in the Atlas Academy and abdicating the title of Schnee Heiress. She remembers well when she could no longer rely on her father’s allowance. For Yang, it’s having a bike of her own and going out at night. She becomes protective of her appearance and long hair.

It’s worth noting that particularly a physical aspect of this independence - fighting - was something taught to them by the neglectful parents. Taiyang taught Yang to fight hand-to-hand before Beacon, and the hereditary nature of the Schnee semblance means Willow was most likely Winter’s first mentor.

Part of this behavior is also a need to escape the situation at home. With Winter that goes without saying - Jacques is abusive. Yang wants to leave the home she held together when she was a child; note her desire to travel the world, and her attempts to distance herself from Ruby so she won’t have to be relied upon even at Beacon.

In a sense, they’re both searching for the same thing - a parent to replace the ones who failed them. Ironwood and Raven both offer to be their replacement parent, at the cost of asking the children to leave with them to a new home, the one they’re leading and ruling. This doesn’t fix their family problem, and personally I believe neither Winter nor Yang full-heartily saw it as a solution, but they were both desperate enough to find anyone - anyone at all - that would take a weight off their shoulders and put them first. Yang searches for Raven, hoping she’ll find in her a mother despite everything. Fortunately for her, Qrow saved her from running after Raven prematurely. Unfortunately for Winter, James’s close friendship with Jacques meant he has known her from a young age, had observed how Jacques manipulates her and her family, and eventually offered himself as a savior from her situation at home. He had subtly groomed her into thinking the military - and more importantly, himself - was her only option to escape Jacques.

Despite this major difference, some similarities between Yang and Raven’s relationship and Winter and Ironwood’s relationship persist: the bandit lifestyle Raven offers Yang is militant and violent, similar to Ironwood’s army. Yang’s learnt conditional trust in authority would fit quite well with a bandit hierarchy built on perceived strength. Winter’s authoritarian outlook lends itself quite well to rise up in the ranks of the military.

Lastly, I’d like to point out the “inherited” philosophies of their respective replacement parents:

Raven’s philosophy: The weak die, so the strong survive on their own.

Yang’s philosophy: If I am not strong, I am weak and will be alone.

Ironwood’s philosophy: Every sacrifice is worth the cause.

Winter’s philosophy: I am not worth anything, so I can be sacrificed.

They’re all destructive mindsets, but the children inverted the implied destruction caused to others into their own self-destruction, in concordance with their shared need to put others before themselves. Part of the children’s progression will be to rise above these philosophies.

II. Yang & Ruby vs. Winter & Weiss

In the previous section I explained why Winter and Yang both act quasi-maternal and how it affected their growth and character. Now let’s examine their primary familial relationship, with their younger sisters Weiss and Ruby.

The simple truth is that much of what I said about Winter and Yang’s childhood is equally true for Weiss and Ruby, which could be explained quite easily - there’s only so much a child can do to replace adults. The important distinction is that for Weiss and Ruby someone did put them above everyone else, and that’s Winter and Yang. Consciously or by instinct, the elder sisters wanted to provide the younger sisters the safety they felt robbed off, and to give them the opportunity to grow and live as children like they couldn’t. In turn, the younger siblings put them on a pedestal and idolized them.

It is heavily implied Winter acted as a buffer between Jacques and Weiss, and was her confidant. Note how fluently they communicate their true thoughts to each other by hiding them in sneers and insults, yet drop all pretense in private and speak clearly what’s on their mind then. Winter worries about Weiss’s health and well-being, and isn’t interested in her studies and ranking; this is a deliberate choice to belie what Jacques instilled in Weiss, to put her happiness before her image. Winter mentored Weiss’s semblance training and is her harshest critic. She was Weiss’s main motivator to rebel against Jacques, and advised her to cut ties with the Schnee name like herself; she warns her of the futility in trying to reason with their father on his own terms. Winter encouraged Weiss to follow in her footsteps as a huntress, and also in her decision to figure herself out independently.

Yang, in her own words, was the one to hold everything together following Summer’s disappearance. She protected Ruby from feeling loveless and alone as she herself felt, by putting herself there where Taiyang couldn’t be. She gave her attention, she read to her and hugged her. She played with her and entertained her, and went along with every joke and scheme Ruby wanted to make. She enables Ruby to let loose and have fun, to take pride in her accomplishments and to stand up for herself. It’s important for Yang to show her support and pride in Ruby as frequently as she does, most likely to compensate the times Tai couldn’t. Among her family, Ruby goes to Yang when she is worried and afraid. Yang truly was Ruby’s best friend growing up.

Note how both Winter and Yang instilled values in Weiss and Ruby that are better than their own, and encouraged them to be better than themselves. They want them to actively search for happiness, although they themselves seem incapable of following the same advise - Winter went to a thankless job with little reward, Yang is afraid of forming friendships that are not just surface deep. The younger, prodigal sisters are assertive and have set themselves clear goals and ambitions in contrast to their elder sisters, who both prefer to follow and dedicate themselves to others.

[gif by deshieart]

The idyllic picture I described here is not complete. Winter and Yang may have significantly improved Weiss and Ruby’s childhood, but in their limited power as children - or perhaps their simple human limitations - there are blind spots in their relationships. There are issues the younger sisters have separate from the ones the elders tried to shield them from.

Winter still grew up in Atlas and under Jacques, and she is not immune from the dangerous influence of both. Early on, Weiss seemed to believe in similar ideas, and part of that behavior is due to Winter’s influence. Although Winter’s escape from home is understandable, it must’ve left some Weiss bitter being left behind. Winter forwent the Schnee name, where Weiss wants to change it for the better, and part of me can’t help but think Weiss’s conviction was affected by Winter leaving home.

As she grew up, Yang had two main caretakers - Taiyang and Qrow - who both experience difficulties addressing and sharing their problems openly. Yang, in turn, learnt not to share her own issues and put on a reassuring facade. She compartmentalizes, keeping her issues separate from what she shared with Ruby. But children are more perceptive than we might think, and Ruby must have picked up on Yang’s behavior and took it in. Ruby has her own version of keeping to herself - she ignores her problems and represses, avoiding the issue altogether with seemingly no healthy outlet. [x]

The narrative of the show tends to juxtapose these relationships against each other, cutting from one to the other and comparing them side by side, parallel or anti-parallel. The most obvious contrast is in their warmth: in Volume 3, Winter and Weiss are polite and reserved even privately, having lunch at an outdoor cafe. Yang and Ruby are loud and brash, playing video games and ribbing each other with their uncle. Winter pushes Weiss to confront Jacques directly, Yang seems content to support Ruby’s initiative by following her.

In volumes 4 and 5, the narrative matches the sisters in opposites: it is Yang and Weiss that are bound home and want to leave, and Winter and Ruby fighting in Mistral. Yang and Weiss overcome their personal struggles, and view their sister as their salvation, but end up finding each other first by chance (incidentally, Yang “returns” to Raven at the same time Winter returns to Atlas back to Ironwood). Meanwhile, Winter and Ruby become aware of Salem and the larger war at play.

When they are united with their sisters, this trend continues as Yang initiates the hug with Ruby and stops her nervous blabbering, and Weiss hugs Winter to stop her alarmed frenzy. Yang and Weiss reassure Ruby and Winter of their well-being.

[gif by sirianhewigxiii]

Come Volume 7, Winter returns as a full-time character and we see how after their respective reunions, the sisters return to their preestablished roles. Winter and Yang support Weiss and Ruby in their decisions and actions, listening to their younger sisters as they did before. Now, however, the sisters are on a more even footing: Weiss is now free of Jacques like Winter, Yang acts more assertive like Ruby. As a result, the relationship is less one-sided. For example, though Winter is not as doubtful of Ironwood as Weiss, she listens to her input and divulges a secret to her, showing that despite having differing opinions they begin to see each other as equals. Yang goes along with Ruby’s plan to hide Salem’s immortality from Ironwood (and even takes it a step further when she reveals Amity to Robyn), but she’s not afraid to tell her she doesn’t feel comfortable with that decision. It’s a step up from what they had before.

In the finale of Volume 7 and the premiere of Volume 8, the bonds between sisters are challenged, and they separate from each other. Winter chooses her loyalty to Ironwood over her trust in Weiss, Yang chooses her conscience over her innate trust in Ruby. Mind, these situations are not completely the same: the split between Ruby and Yang is pragmatic and they still view themselves as united, the split between Weiss and Winter is ideological and they are on different sides of the conflict.

I’ll leave my speculation what will happen to the sisters in the latter half of Volume 8 for the last section.

II.V - Winter & Whitley

A brief aside about Whitley, would be to ask if what I said about Winter’s relationship with Weiss could also apply to Whitley. The answer is of course no, Whitley and Winter clearly have an entirely different relationship here. Frankly, pinpointing its exact nature more precisely is difficult, since the center of the Schnee narrative is Weiss and we have little interactions between the Schnees that don’t involve her. I cannot offer you a definite reason as to why the difference exists, but I have a few guesses.

I’ll assume what we see of Weiss and Whitley in volumes 4 and 7 is similar to what Winter and Whitley had, and take into account Weiss’s statement that Whitley never really liked Winter (or her). As Willow pointed out to Weiss, Whitley was left alone with Jacques, and began imitating him and emulating his hurtful behavior. Jacques took him under his wing, when Willow was at her worst, Winter away, and Weiss in the process of leaving. Deep down he understands he was being abused by Jacques, but with the cards stacked against him his damaging attitude becomes clearer - and particularly, the likely reasons he resents Winter and Weiss for.

[gif by chittychittyyangyang]

So how come Weiss and Whitley turned out so different, and how does Winter factor into this? For starters, I’ll point out again that Winter’s influence on the Schnee household is very limited, and that humans tend to make mistakes. For her to gloss over Whitley, or to presumably ignore him, could be due to several reasons. Perhaps connecting with someone 10 years your junior was just too difficult. Maybe Jacques intervened more often with Whitley, seeing as he was younger and impressionable.

It’s difficult to tell what exactly happened here between Whitley and Winter, and I don’t think specifying here is helpful. I’ll sum up by saying that however their relationship turned sour, I lean towards the reason being human error rather than malicious intent. Family situations tend to be complicated.

III. Yang & Blake vs. Winter & Penny

Here I want to talk about more subtle parallels between Yang’s journey throughout volumes 1-5 and Winter’s journey in volumes 7-8.5. The major comparison here would be between Yang and Blake’s relationship, and Winter and Penny’s relationship.

Before I begin, I’d like to stress that although Bumbleby is clearly romantic in nature, here I’m more interested in their development separate from the romantic aspects of it. As such, it’s not my intention here to argue in favor of romantic Winter/Penny, though I have nothing against it. I view it more as a platonic relationship with some familial undertones.

I explained in the first section how Yang and Winter keep people at arm’s length, so it’s natural to wonder about the exceptions to that rule, their relationships with Blake and Penny respectively. When they meet their new partners, Yang and Winter seem mostly set in their ways, with no real tangible goal beyond wanting to help others where they can. To them, Blake and Penny are a breath of fresh air, determined and purposeful, and they’re challenged by their perspective.

To me at least, how Yang and Blake interact during Beacon is quite similar to what we see of Winter and Penny’s relationship in volume 7. It starts off as a working relationship, but the continuous presence around each other has lead it into easy affection. It’s a give-and-take of differing personalities finding common ground, though here the more apt analogy would be Yang/Penny and Winter/Blake. They begin feeling safe with one another, opening up and sharing intimate details about themselves, and the other’s opinion and well-being matter to them. They even work well together as fighting partners.

[gif by chittychittyyangyang]

Yang tells Blake about Raven and her complicated family life, partially in an attempt to stop Blake from overworking herself. After Winter’s outburst at Jacques, she shares with Penny her vulnerability regarding her family, and tells her she can’t let her emotions take control of her. Neither Blake nor Penny accept their lessons at face value, and question those beliefs. Was Blake’s determination really like Yang’s quest to find Raven? Are Winter’s emotions truly a hindrance and Penny should follow suit? Still, their disagreements don’t stop them from caring about each other, as we see when Yang hugs Blake and Winter holds Penny’s hands.

Blake is a faunus rights activist who fights for what she believes in, and Yang admires her for it, and is also subtly inspired by her. Penny is dedicated to her role as the Protector of Mantle, and Winter is endeared by her devotion to the cause. In both cases however, this beautiful aspiration is soured by Adam and Ironwood, who use Blake and Penny’s noble efforts for their own gain.

Next both relationships experience a “falling out”. Yang fights to save Blake from Adam at the end of Volume 3, and sacrifices her right arm trying to protect Blake. At the end of Volume 7, Winter and Penny fight Cinder, and Winter sacrifices her body (and purpose as a Winter Maiden) for Penny. We have Yang and Winter, defeated and critically injured, left behind by Blake and Penny, both running away from their controlling abusers Adam and Ironwood.

There’s an interesting tidbit here about their natures as characters, as both “falling outs” hammer on a shared flaw between the couples. Yang and Blake are both afraid of putting their trust in someone else, one is afraid of being deemed unsatisfactory and the other afraid of hurting by association. Winter and Penny are both self-sacrificial, the former thinks her opinion and thoughts are worthless, the latter wishes to put all the weight of the world on her shoulders. The finales and aftermaths of volumes 3 and 7 are a cruel display of these flaws.

Yang and Winter are both injured enough to require a replacement for parts of their bodies, a robotic arm and an exoskeleton. The supplier of both limbs is Ironwood, who projects himself onto both women, “rewarding” them for selfless acts of heroic sacrifice like he sees himself. He saw Yang’s fight the the tournament, criticized her harshly for it, then heard about her noble sacrifice and told her he wishes she’d return fighting soon. He groomed Winter to be his second, scolds her when she disobeys him, and after her injury emphasizes her importance to him. It seems to me that Ironwood attempted to make Yang indebted to himself like he managed with Winter before.

The process of recovery for both women is difficult, and in Winter’s case rushed. On a purely physical level it could be argued they have recovered from their injuries, as both eventually return to the field after their recovery. If we consider their emotional state, things become trickier; though Yang was at first offered a fairly lengthy recovery period on her own terms, in Volume 4 her main motivation to recover is not for herself but for other’s sake - appeasing Tai and worrying for Ruby. Similarly, Winter’s recovery is overshadowed by Ironwood’s orders and the current situation’s time constraints.

This behavior on Yang and Winter’s part is not so strange to me, when I consider Taiyang and Ironwood’s roles in their lives. Because of Taiyang’s issues when she was a child, Yang learnt to put others before herself, particularly when it concerns Ruby and Tai. Yang’s recovery becomes less about herself and more about others after Tai subtly insults her intelligence and her “moping”. I view this as falling back into old habits, Yang learning that if Tai is put through too much then she’s taken too much space (she puts on her arm after overhearing Tai saying he has to stay to take care of her), and must compensate by putting Ruby (and in a sense Tai) first.

[gif by sister-ilia]

After accepting Winter to the army, Ironwood acts as some form of surrogate father to her. Winter looks up to him because he offered her safety from Jacques, and looks for his approval constantly. Look at her reactions when she’s scolded by Ironwood for misbehavior. Ironwood offered her asylum in exchange for subservience. When Winter is in her hospital, he first reminds her how reassuring it is to have her on his side, and then proceeds to kill a councilman for disagreeing with him. It’s an indirect threat against Winter, one carefully cultivated throughout their working relationship in the military.

Regardless, the physical recovery is only part of a larger process Yang and Winter have to go through. Volume 5 made it quite apparent Yang suffers from PTSD and emotional trauma from her fight with Adam, and Blake leaving triggered Yang’s fear of abandonment. She faces Raven for the first time, and is haunted by Blake’s mere mention. She struggles against the past - the parent she wanted to put hope unto - and the future - the hope she has in Blake.

Winter faces similar struggles in the first half of Volume 8 parallel to Yang in Volume 5. She is traumatized by the fight against Cinder, most likely with PTSD as well, and Penny leaving as she did has shook her inner beliefs. For the first time, we see her visibly struggling to adhere to Ironwood’s orders with ease, and she’s deeply concerned for Penny’s well-being. She is torn between her loyalty - to Ironwood, the parent she put her trust in - and her moral compass - to Penny, who challenged her to follow her feelings.

Coincidentally, RWBY chose to portray Yang and Winter’s stress with a shaking fist, where they were injured. Having said that, Winter displays many similar physical ticks like that before her injury, but the deliberate focus on the same tick as Yang is too great for me to ignore.

Both of these struggles are also marked by a decisive choice to take action and be assertive, which is remarkable where these two are concerned. Yang forms the plan to find Ruby via Raven and refuses her offer to join the tribe. Winter forgoes Ironwood’s orders to bring team JYR to custody, and instead relies on them to save Oscar from the Whale.

Yang’s recovery does not in Volume 5 either (nor does it end in Volume 6 for that matter), but at the moment Winter’s parallel arc is unfinished. I’ll speculate about this a bit more in the next section.

IV. Rough Speculation

So when I say rough speculation, I mean it in two different ways. One, is that I’m mostly focused on characters arcs, and they’ll be fairly abstract. Two, is that I’m fairly sure most of these parallels are accidental and not intended, so I don’t hold much hope any of these will come true. Instead, think of these as “if I wanted to make these parallels intentional, how would the story proceed next?”

One parallel I do think is intentional is between the sisters. It is the first time we observe both relationships put into the test, and the outcome of this split will obviously change the sister’s dynamic with each other. How will these two relationships compare to one another by the end of the volume, I do not know, the current arc isn’t finished yet. I can only comment on how I want and hope these relationships will proceed. Currently, I see the physical split between the sisters as an opportunity to reevaluate themselves independently of the other’s influence. And, I think this change will be positive for all of them.

Though it’s obvious Yang’s choice deeply affects Ruby and will contribute to her expected breaking point, I think Ruby will come out stronger at the end of it. Yang’s choice to take charge herself is obviously very important to her growth as a person. Given how RWBY framed their split around a mutual understanding both sisters’ viewpoints are correct, I don’t think their reconciliation will be one-sided - they will come to understand where the other is coming from, and their relationship - and team RWBY - will grow from it.

Despite the difference in circumstances, I think Winter and Weiss will echo this development as well. Jacques may be mostly neutralized, but the Schnee family won’t be miraculously healed because of it. At the moment, Weiss is facing that reality now with Whitley and Willow, and I think her arc this volume will lead her to begin healing her family in earnest. Winter will almost definitely leave Ironwood, and for the first time in her life she’ll be free from someone seeking to control her, free to follow her conscience. It will also give her an opportunity to reconcile with her family without Jacques’s influence, which ties in quite nicely with Weiss’s arc - Weiss pulling her family together, Winter letting herself be pulled to them. Weiss and Winter’s bond will come out stronger, and the Schnees will finally have a chance to heal.

[gif by wnterschnee]

You might’ve noticed I put a lot of emphasis on when and where Winter and Yang make choices for themselves, because I think these moments are vital for them to grow as a person. Starting with Volume 5, there’s a been a slow progression where Yang asserts herself more often, which culminates in her decision in Volume 8 to break away from Ruby with her own objective. Like her, Winter in Volume 7 quite often disagrees with Ironwood’s plans, yet follows them anyway because of her loyalty to him. This loyalty is no longer enough to sway her in Volume 8 when she starts disobeying his orders.

Again, I’m comparing two unfinished arcs, but I’m excited to see where this development will lead us. Having Winter and Yang parallel each other like so would really hammer home how similar these two can be beneath the surface. If at some point it involves more direct contact to drive each other, that’d just be icing on the cake. For now I’ll enjoy that their only personal interaction with each other is Yang telling Winter “[she’s] still just following orders?”, followed by a glare - hopefully this preludes a future conversation between them talking about this exact point.

I’ve already touched upon predictions related to the first two parts of this analysis, what about the third? Here we can go a bit wilder, because we already know what happens to Yang (and Blake) in Volumes 5 and 6. How would I mirror Volumes 5 and 6 with Winter (and Penny)? When I think of Yang’s recovery arc, two major scenes at the ends of Volume 5 and 6 come to mind.

The first is her confrontation with Raven in the Maiden Vault, an incredibly powerful scene where Yang properly confronts Raven and calls out her cowardice. One of the reasons it works so well is how difficult it is to realize Raven’s place in Yang’s life is not clear cut; Yang hates her for abandoning her and shirking her responsibilities as a parent, yet there is still love between them. Raven’s reaction itself is both an admission of care when she concedes to Yang, and also another failure on her part by leaving her off with the responsibility, running away again. In simpler terms, Yang reluctantly confronts someone she cares for deeply, yet isn’t on her side.

Who would be the Raven to Winter in a parallel scenario? One possibility is Ironwood, who holds a similar position to Winter as Raven did to Yang. Ironwood is an almost paternal figure to Winter, but he’s making wrong and dangerous choices, and Winter seems to realize it as well. He used her and exploited her, but also offered her safety and stability. Even after Winter defects, I don’t think Winter will want to fight him physically (if she’s capable), and would probably attempt to sway him with her words. Admittedly I don’t foresee Winter’s attempt at non-aggression to be successful like Yang, so it might come to blows anyway.

A second possibility it to put Penny in Raven’s place. Given that Penny’s also Maiden like Raven, and she’s on her way to the Atlas Vault, there’s some potential thematic parallels. Given their established relationship, I think neither would want to confront each other physically, and would rather talk instead. It’s possible here Winter and Penny will switch metaphorical roles, and it might be Penny that gives Winter the final push towards the heroes sides. It’s also possible, given Penny’s hacked plot line, that Winter will instead have to sway Penny back from whatever the hacking did to her. The last interpretation would also fit in quite well with Winter and Penny’s arc focusing on personal choice and feelings winning over.

The other incredibly important scene in Yang’s arc is the Bumbleby vs. Adam fight. Blake and Yang finally liberate themselves from Adam, Blake’s abuser and Yang’s personal enemy, and they defeat him by working together. Yang is freed of her personal demons, Blake of her literal demons, and in the aftermath of his death they mend their relationship. Their trust in each other won over strength.

[gif by sister-ilia]

If a parallel scene to the Nevermore fight would exist for Winter and Penny, I can think of three characters that could fulfill Adam’s role. Cinder already set her eyes on Penny and is fairly likely to fight her again, and in their previous clash injured Winter. It matches fairly well plot-wise, but I don’t think Cinder is enough of a personal villain to either Penny or Winter to match the same gravitas as Adam. For similar reasons, Watts, Penny’s “puppeteer”, can also fill Adam’s proverbial shoes in this imagined scenario, but I fear he’s too inconsequential overall.

Or, it could be Ironwood in Adam’s place. Ironwood seeks to control Penny (like Adam did with Blake), and acts as Winter’s personal demon (like Adam was to Yang) by continuously conditioning her to repress herself. Like the Nevermore fight, there’s a motive for them to avoid killing him, but given Ironwood’s current state of mind he might push them to that edge in self defense. Even if Ironwood’s defeat would not involve death, it would be a liberate Penny and Winter, freeing them from his control once and for all - but a Pyrrhic victory all the same. I’ll admit, this might be my favorite way to defeat Ironwood.

Coda

I’ll emphasize one last thought regarding these character arcs - it is my strong belief character progressions, and healing arcs in particular, do not have a clear and set timeline. What I outlined here are not endings, but steps in the way. RWBY seems to agree with my train of thought, and with Yang in particular we see this in her current arc: yes, she has progressed immensely from Volume 3, but the healing process does not simply end, even if it may seem that way on the surface. I approach Winter’s character in the same manner; I have high hopes of her character and as a person, but change is an ongoing process, and I’ll treat it as such.

Thanks for reading my analysis! I know it’s a bit long and messy, I’ve had to skim through some ideas that could be expanded upon, so send an ask my way if you’d like me to elaborate on anything.

Other interesting reads:

Kali-tmblr’s essay regarding siblings relationships.

Tumblingxelian’s review of Yang’s Volume 4 arc.

Petracore’s review of Winter’s Volume 7 arc.

Theseerasures’s comparison of Winter and Yang.

Schneefamilyincorrectquotes talking about Schneeblings.

#Winter Schnee #Yang Xiao Long #RWBY Analysis #long post #RWBY8 #RWBY #my posts #fishy.analysis

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bigskydreaming · 3 years ago

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Dick has said it out loud explicitly, to Damian, that the mantle of Robin was his to pass on. Why do people still feel entitled to talk over him?

IMO? For the exact same reasons that people harp on so much about it being a retcon that Robin was Dick’s mother’s nickname for him and that originally he based the name on Robin Hood. To be perfectly honest that doesn’t make a damn bit of difference in regards to the fact that either way the point is still that Dick created Robin and it wouldn’t exist without him.....but the constant attempts to minimize its emotional significance to Dick and any kind of special attachment to it that he has and that the others can’t claim to share....

IMO these are just attempts to distance Dick from the mantle and make him seem less relevant or important to its very existence....freeing up people to focus on the importance of Robin as a symbol and a mantle to everyone else but without having to attribute any special credit or significance or respect to Dick as the originator of the mantle and the character that the other Robins are literally the legacy characters of.

It’s pretty annoying and very shortsighted IMO as actually, emphasizing the connection Robin has to Dick’s first family just enhances the weight and poignancy of Dick ultimately giving each of the other Robins his blessing when he didn’t have to and thus literally choosing them as his new family even without having to rely solely on a connection to each other via Bruce.

Of course people don’t seem to really want to do that either....given how rarely Dick’s blessing even gets acknowledged amid all the angst about who replaced who and who was fired and who wasn’t. It’s kinda ironic...I know so many fans HATE the version where Bruce fires Dick and so whatever they can not to acknowledge it and dismiss it as a retcon....and the ironic thing is? I get it. I totally see why it’s not something they want to run with and to be quite honest I can take it or leave it myself. I like exploring versions of events where Dick was fired, I like exploring ones where he wasn’t. Both have room for digging and delving imo.

My only beef with people who are soooo loud and quick to always dismiss the firing as just a retcon that doesn’t count.....is that in the pre Crisis version of events where Dick voluntarily gave up Robin and decided it was time to move onto a new identity....he gave Robin to Jason himself. The significance of that version of events isn’t JUST that it was Dick’s own choice to move to a new identity and that there was no conflict between him and Bruce about it...it was equally of significance that the Robin mantle was still viewed as inherently his, made by him, and his and his alone to pass on to a successor.

There is no version where Dick gave it up voluntarily but had no role in choosing Jason. The very premise of that mix and match honestly makes no sense because why make such a fuss about Bruce not having overstepped and fired Dick when it was never his place to say what he could claim as his identity or mantle on his OWN (fire him as his partner, sure that was always Bruce’s right, but tell Dick he couldn’t be the hero persona he created for himself? Fuck off Bruce LOL).

But my point is that mix and match makes no real sense because why preserve Bruce’s character from stepping between Dick and the mantle he created to honor his first parents....only to then turn right around and have Bruce still treat it as a Wayne family hand me down that Dick had outgrown when it was only EVER a Grayson family hand me down whose only connection to the Wayne family was through Dick being a member of both families and a bridge connecting them?

Whether Bruce fires Dick as Robin and gives it to Jason or JUST gives it to Jason without Dick making that choice....the one isn’t any better than the other because in both cases the actual offense is still the same: it was never Bruce’s to do ANYTHING with other than what Dick wanted done with it. Take on a new partner? Sure. But give him the mantle made of Dick’s work, Dick’s past, Dick’s every action as Robin? Nope.

So really the mix and match only serves one real purpose, for anyone who is intent on dismissing the firing as just a retcon but sees no need to uphold Dick choosing to give Robin to Jason instead of Bruce doing that...when Bruce doing that is literally part of the exact same retcon they’re so intent on discarding!

The only real purpose that mix and match serves is to keep Bruce centered in the Robin succession with his choice to give it to Jason being the basis of Jason associating Robin with Bruce. It keeps Bruce as the person Jason thinks of and feels connected to every time he thinks of why he’s Robin at all....because Bruce is the one who gave him the symbol that was already well known and full of meaning when Jason stepped into those shoes.

And then of course at the same time the mix and match also ‘lessens’ Bruce’s offense to Dick in taking Robin against his wishes WHILE also suggesting that Dick has less basis of feeling resentful of Bruce passing it on to someone else without his say so because it’s not like he was using it anymore right? And that was his own choice right?

But so what if it was? That doesn’t make it any less his creation and his legacy. It doesn’t make it any less a Grayson family connection and somehow more a Bruce Wayne family connection.

And that’s my beef. That’s the big irony of how flat out counter intuitive the mix and match retcon thing is and always has been. It only accomplishes half its objective....keeps the later Robins more connected to Bruce via it than they are to Dick via it....because it ultimately still runs through Bruce. But it fails to accomplish its secondary objective simply because refusing to acknowledge that Robin is intrinsically tied to Dick Grayson and not Bruce Wayne like....doesn’t actually make it any less true.

And that’s why imo the question should never have been “does your fic go with the version where Dick gives up Robin or the retcon where Bruce fires Dick” ...no, the right question in my mind should have always been “does your fic go with the version where Dick gives Robin to Jason or the retcon where Bruce gives it to Jason.”

And here’s the sticking point:

People always point to Bruce and Dick’s initial connection as the basis of their entire Dynamic Duo partnership. They understood each otrher via their parallel experiences losing their parents to murder. Bruce saw himself in a young Dick Grayson and he wanted to help Dick figure out a way forward to life after his parents’ death by drawing upon his own experiences.

But at the same time, they aren’t the same. Even with Bruce guiding Dick forward through his trauma and grief by following a map made of his own prior experiences, the end result was not the same for both....but it still used some of the same road marks on their respective journeys.

And this is why the Dynamic Duo were always emphasized as partners, as complementing each other, balancing each other....things they could only do because they were not the same and even using similar coping mechanisms to deal with their PARALLEL tragedies....produced entirely different results.

Both used their tragedies, their traumas, their PAIN to fuel their pursuit of justice and desire to help protect people. Both built new personas for themselves to use in their shared missions here....personas which embodied what they wanted to accomplish in these guises while at the same time reminding them why they were doing this.

But the personas they created ended up looking very different despite being born of similar crucibles...because they prioritized different things....and because they were honoring different people.

No matter how much Bruce and Dick have in common due to circumstances they are very different people who are both products of the families and places they come from....and thus even when using similar PROCESSES to build something out of their parallel tragedies, what emerged from the fires once they were done creating from their traumas.....don’t look the same. Aren’t interchangeable.

And neither are their creators.

Bottom line, it in my opinion flat out does not work to attribute more connection to Robin and the succession of that mantle to Bruce than Dick.....because Bruce would never, COULD never create that specific mantle out of his grief and pain any more than Dick ever would or could have created Batman out of his. Because they are too different. They needed different things out of their journeys forward, they were commemorating having had different journeys behind them, they were walking a shared path side by side but you can’t switch the clothes they made to wear going forward anymore than you can switch their footprints beneath their feet....they don’t fit into what the other made because it wasn’t made BY them and it wasn’t made FOR them.

So riddle me this, Batfandom: how does it make sense to focus on their parallel tragedies and how they moved forward from those in similar ways and on a shared trajectory, emphasizing how this is the entire basis of the Batman and Robin partnership from its very inception.....

Only to then view the role Bruce’s grief, his loss, his pain played in birthing the Batman mantle as something sacrosanct, undeniable....these things go hand in hand, there’s no separating them even when others end up wearing the Batman mantle as well, even through multiple generations....

But at the EXACT SAME TIME....treating Dick’s grief, HIS loss, HIS pain and the role all THAT played in birthing the Robin mantle....as something that barely comes up as a footnote the second you put the costume on anyone other than Dick? Something the others never even feel inclined to THINK about when reflecting on the mantle they’re wearing and where it came from and why it exists?

Why is the one rated as so less significant than the other....if the entire point of Batman and Robin is that both heroes were born from the ashes of tragedies so similar they understood each other in ways most other mentors and sidekicks never came close to?

How’s that work exactly?

Look, you’ll never catch me arguing that Bruce isn’t and shouldn’t be central to the Batman mantle, mythos, succession, etc. And I loved Dick as Batman too. But it ultimately should always come back to Bruce no matter how many people add to it in their own ways. Because it’s not just about what Bruce made.....it’s why he made it that matters too. The act of creating Batman is as important to the story of Batman as the created Batman.

And those very same reasons are precisely why Bruce shouldn’t be regarded as central to the ROBIN mantle, succession, etc.

To dismiss the Graysons as not being definitive to the greater Robin mythos is to say Thomas and Martha Wayne bear no special significance to the Batman mythos.

I love that being Robin connects these siblings and ties them all together as part of the same family. I love it being a shared family tradition that encompasses all of them and marks this family of choice as having been specifically chosen by not just it’s patriarch but each other.

But it’s not Bruce’s family tradition and it’s not a Wayne or even a Batman hand me down.

Because it doesn’t even come from Bruce’s family.

It comes from Dick’s. He brought it with him. It’s what connects him to what came before life with Bruce because as everyone knows but so many people often forget to give MEANING....

Dick Grayson, for as much as he is Batman’s son and is undeniably Bruce’s family, had a life of his own before he ever met Bruce.

He didn’t begin with Bruce Wayne. He didn’t come from Bruce Wayne.

And neither did Robin.

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thinkingisadangerouspastime · 4 years ago

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do you think zuko treated mai fairly? i mean... why didn't he trust her to tell her his deepest thoughts when he abandoned her in the fire nation? i know he loved her but i don't understand why he didn't just tell her instead of hurting her unnecessarily. they're cute but i find it so hard to get past this, i would be so hurt if my bf didn't tell me something so important. and then mai just. forgives zuko so easily even after he locked her in a cell still not trusting her. mai deserves better :(

It’s kind of funny you ask this, because I lowkey have a lot of feelings about the phrase “x deserved better than y”. For one, I’m always cautious around it, because in the A:TLA fandom I’ve seen it thrown around in two main ways:

“Katara deserved better than Aang!” followed by the most ridiculous slander labelling Aang as abusive, toxic, manipulative, etc. (Funnily enough, though, a lot of those people will also go and ship T.aang. Like T.aang is an Excellent ship, do not get me wrong, but it’s clear they just say ‘Katara deserved better’ because they hate K.ataang and don’t necessarily care one way or the other about Aang.)

“Zuko deserved better than Mai!” followed by the most obnoxious bullshit also labelling Mai as abusive, toxic, manipulative, etc. and even - I kid you not - saying she’s “too ugly” for Zuko. At worst, racist; at best, shallow. (And again, funnily enough, a lot of them will then ship M.ailee, again proving they don’t really care one way or another about Mai, they just hate M.aiko.)

Now, I’m not getting into the K.ataang vs Z.utara vs M.aiko ship wars, lmao, but those are the two primary ways that rhetoric is used. It’s kind of embarrassing, tbh, how fandom tends to use the phrase to discredit pairings and demonize characters instead of… you know. Moving on with their lives, lol.

But your ask fascinates me, anon, because you bring up the point of Zuko not trusting Mai, thus leading to the conclusion of “Mai deserves better than Zuko.” Which is interesting, because as I just mentioned, for most people who follow the “x deserves better than y” phrase, it tends to be used the other way around!

Firstly, however, I want to say that you don’t have to ship Maiko. You can read my explanation and walk away still feeling exactly the same way about Mai and Zuko’s relationship (love it, hate it, indifferent to it, all that jazz), and that’s totally okay! But I’m going to do my best to explain what’s off with the rhetoric of “x deserves better than y,” specifically regarding Maiko. My thesis, as it were?

It’s not about “deserve.”

Disclaimer: This obviously does not refer to genuinely unhealthy/abusive relationships. I shouldn’t have to say that, but we all know how Tumblr is. I digress.

Love isn’t about “deserve.” At first glance, that’s kind of a confusing take, isn’t it? Don’t we all “deserve” someone who will respect us, appreciate us, and treat us well? Of course we do! But those are just qualities of any healthy relationship. When I say that love isn’t about “deserve,” I mean that love can’t be simplified quite so easily. Here is a definition of “deserve”:

“do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment)”

How do we make ourselves “worthy” of love? I (an optimist) don’t think we do. Love isn’t about worthiness; I believe we are all “worthy” of love simply by existing. Instead, I argue that love is about openness. It’s not about if we “deserve” love or not, but rather if we allow ourselves to be open to it.

All of this is to say that it’s not about whether or not Mai “deserves” or “deserves better than” Zuko; it’s that she is open to receive love from him, and he from her. She wants to love and be loved by Zuko. No one else. She says it to Azula herself: “I love Zuko more than I fear you.” Mai chooses Zuko, full stop, just as Zuko chose her by a) doing everything in his power to keep her out of his betrayal of the Fire Nation (why would he risk putting a death sentence on her head, too?) and b) reuniting with her happily at the end of the show (i.e. he didn’t brush her off; he smiles his widest smile in the entire show during that scene!). So it’s not about “deserve.” It’s about these two kids loving and finding love in one another. A Shakespeare quote is particularly relevant here:

“Love sought is good, but given unsought is better.” (Twelfth Night – Act 3, Scene 1)

We are all looking for love, be it romantic or platonic or anything in-between, and there is no better feeling than we receive love even when we feel we don’t “deserve” it. Mai is willing to work with Zuko to make their relationship work despite his mistakes, because it’s not about if he “deserves” her, but because she knows he is willing to grow and improve (and she is, too).

Also, within the series of A:TLA (specifically towards the middle-end of Book 3), it can be concluded that Zuko believes that he is no longer “worthy” of Mai’s love. That he doesn’t “deserve” her love because of how he abandoned her (and she is the only thing about the Fire Nation he regrets leaving behind). Mai disagrees with him. She is open to a relationship with Zuko because she loves him for an infinite number of reasons (one being that he does what is right, including going against the Fire Nation, even if she did not at first understand). When Zuko realizes this by the time the finale comes around, they reconcile in a tender embrace.

And what reason are we ever given to doubt Mai regarding whether or not she “deserves” better than Zuko? Mai is perfectly aware of her own worth. She breaks up with Zuko in “The Beach” because his behavior is inexcusable and she knows that she doesn’t have to put up with it. Even in the comics, which are handled poorly, I don’t entirely hate the Maiko breakup because again, Mai knows that she does not have to be responsible for Zuko’s well-being. She loves him, she loves him so much, and she tries to help him, but she is not his therapist. So again, why should we doubt Mai? Going back to the A:TLA finale - Mai knows what she “deserves” and what she doesn’t. She knows what she will and what she won’t put up with. And after everything, she is still open to a relationship with Zuko. Because love isn’t about “deserve,” and it never has been.

To address your other questions:

why didn’t he trust her to tell her his deepest thoughts when he abandoned her in the fire nation? i know he loved her but i don’t understand why he didn’t just tell her instead of hurting her unnecessarily.

You almost answer your question yourself, anon. “[H]is deepest thoughts”? Who tells anyone their “deepest thoughts”? We actually talked about this in my Shakespeare class (I know, right? lmao). A very common trope in Shakespeare’s tragedies is a lack of communication. We all read Romeo and Juliet and Othello and were like “dude, if they had just talked to each other, none of those bad things would have happened!!” (and thus those tragedies might have been comedies).

My professor agreed with us. Then he asked, well, why do you think Shakespeare doesn’t have anyone communicate?

One brave soul said, “That’d be too easy.”

Which is… almost right. Perhaps, narratively, it would be too easy. The plays would definitely be resolved much faster. But the truth? It’s too hard. People don’t communicate clearly in real life. They hide certain things because they’re embarrassed, they’re ashamed, they’re afraid. Even couples who’ve been together for years will admit that they don’t tell each other everything, for whatever reason. People are imperfect, and thus their relationships are, too.

(Slightly amusing sidebar: Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are actually an example of a perfect couple, because Macbeth confides everything to Lady Macbeth in Act 1. And, well, we all know how that went down[hill], lmao.)

So why didn’t Zuko tell Mai the truth when he was leaving the Fire Nation? He was afraid! He says it himself in “The Boiling Rock”: “Everyone in the Fire Nation thinks I’m a traitor. I couldn’t drag her into it.” Zuko is afraid of what might happen to Mai! He knows the Fire Nation now has a price on his head - why would he wish that on Mai? It’s bad enough that she’s the (former) girlfriend of a traitor! How much worse might it have been for her if she’d been associated with him after he’d threatened the Fire Lord’s life*? I’m not saying this to excuse Zuko’s decision, because perhaps Mai would have agreed to join him (although we cannot conclude this with total certainty), and I certainly think breaking up by text letter was a pretty crappy way to go about it, but all the same, he was trying to protect her. When Mai realizes this, what does she do?

Saves his ass from Azula and utters one of the most iconic lines in the entire series.

*Also, a kind of interesting parallel presents itself between Zuko and Hamlet here, lmao. One interpretation of Hamlet’s “get thee to a nunnery!” scene with Ophelia is reading it as him trying to cut ties with her in the cruelest way possible so she wouldn’t try to follow him and possibly get hurt as he killed Claudius (aka regicide, the highest crime in Denmark). While it’s arguable that Zuko isn’t quite so perceptive, lmao, there is the possibility that Zuko thought breaking up with Mai in such a callous way would help prevent her from remaining attached to him and thus getting mixed up in his mess (killing the Fire Lord, aka the A:TLA equivalent of regicide, the highest crime in the Fire Nation). Just something to ponder!

and then mai just. forgives zuko so easily even after he locked her in a cell still not trusting her.

I don’t know if I’d call her forgiveness “easy.” Making the decision to betray Azula? That’s hard. Mai was signing herself up for a death sentence, because Azula doesn’t take prisoners (Aang can testify to this, lmao). If Ty Lee hadn’t been there, Mai almost certainly would have died. So yeah. I wouldn’t call her forgiveness “easy,” anon. I think it’s one of the scariest choices she ever made.

Of course, one can argue that Mai’s true forgiveness of Zuko actually came later, which I don’t necessarily disagree with. I think Mai’s initial instinct was to trust Zuko because she knows him better than perhaps anyone (thus she realizes he wouldn’t walk away from the Fire Nation without true cause), hence her betrayal of Azula. When she survived because of Ty Lee’s chi-blocking (since honestly, Mai probably didn’t think she’d get that far) and was ultimately imprisoned, I bet she had plenty of time to think about Zuko and her relationship with him. Working on that presumption, again, I don’t think I’d call her forgiveness “easy,” because she likely took several days if not weeks to process everything.

Also, you say Zuko doesn’t trust her because a) he didn’t inform her of what he was doing when he left the Fire Nation and b) he locked her in a cell at the Boiling Rock. I understand that perspective, but again, I go back to this line: “Everyone in the Fire Nation thinks I’m a traitor. I couldn’t drag her into it.” Does that sound like someone who doesn’t trust Mai? I think the better description is that Zuko feared for Mai, as I mentioned earlier. Did he lock her in a cell because he thought she’d betray him, or because he thought it was the last thing he could do to protect her when everything went to shit as he, Sokka, Suki, and etc. were all escaping from prison? Could it have been a little bit of both? We can’t say for sure, of course, but given how happy Zuko was around Mai in “Nightmares and Daydreams,” I think his love for her ultimately outweighed his worries about Mai’s ties to Azula, which leads me to conclude his locking her in a cell was less about distrust and more a final, last-ditch attempt at keeping her out of his mess.

Plus, Zuko has issues. Mai knows this. She loves him all the same for it. As I said earlier, she is open to giving love to and receiving love from Zuko. I think it’s a bit of a discredit to Mai’s character to assume she forgave him easily. And besides! She told him herself: “But don’t ever break up with me again.” Mai implicitly tells him hey, don’t pull that BS again, and Zuko gives her an embarrassed smile before they hold each other in a gentle, loving embrace. It’s not a direct statement, and maybe that puts some people off from it, but Mai is firmly implying that she wants him to trust her more, and Zuko acknowledges this (and he’s rightfully a little embarrassed that he kept her out of it, since hindsight is 20/20 and he now understands she probably would have gone with him; do remember, of course, that he had no way of knowing that initially).

do you think zuko treated mai fairly?

Well, how do we define “fairly”? I guess the short answer is no, he didn’t, but what other choice did he believe he had at the time? Answer: none. It was either keep Mai out of it and guarantee her safety or drag Mai into it (which Zuko likely saw as a selfish option, i.e. what right did he have to pull his girlfriend into treason just because he didn’t want to lose her company?) and risk losing her. As viewers, we know there’s more to the situation than that, but Zuko doesn’t have our luxury. So his decision to keep Mai out of it and thus try to protect her? I would call that a “fair” assessment, yes.

And besides, anon:

“The course of true love never did run smooth.” (A Midsummer Night’s Dream - Act 1, Scene 1)

Mai and Zuko chose each other. Who are we to deny them their happiness?

#yes i WILL quote shakespeare 24/7 and what about it?#maiko #mai #zuko #avatar the last airbender #atla meta #atla #atla mai #atla zuko #atla analysis #the boiling rock #amy answers #amy analyzes #anon #adding line break after i post btw!!

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bellamyblake · 3 years ago

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As usually I'm a big fan of your meta, I was wondering what you would say Bellamy and Clarke's biggest tragedies are and if they define them and how do you think they define them as characters? Thank you

ohhh, another very tough question! thank you, nonnie!

well i'd say that if you look from the outside perspective of things, that is the not fandom side of things, like if you pull yourself out from all of it you can quite clearly define their tragedies and what shapes them as characters and more importantly, why they are HEAD and HEART to begin with.

i think because it is not as much talked to on the show, their first tragedies and what shapes them tend to get quite undermined (that also is because the show really does bring so many tragedies in their lives as well, one crises over the other, so we tend to ask ourselves not only when does it end but where it began, right?)

and for me i think it all began both similarly and at the same time very differently, a paradox of sorts, just like the head and the heart.

both their first tragedies were about their parents.

bellamy loses his mother and feels guilt over it because he was the reason for it to happen, taking octavia to that dance, do you ever wonder how many times he probably asked himself in that year on the ark all alone-what if he had just stayed home, what if he never took her, right?

his mom's passing was his first major sin and that is one of the reasons why i was certain that if he, as a character was to die and if j/ason was any semblance of a storyteller, he had to bring his mom before the end and i was right even if he absolutely fucked it up. you had to go to that original first big tragedy/sin just like clarke saw her dad more than once right?

and i should add here that bellamy can't be entirely blamed for what happened. i think aurora herself knew this was inevitable it was just the question of when and how and bellamy ended up being the answer to those questions.

i think it wasn't just bellamy who stopped existing the day octavia was born-from then on his mom was a ghost of herself, a person as if sick with case of untreatable cancer-she knew she was going to die, she was living on borrowed time, how much?

nobody knew but i assume with time, seeing as how much bellamy loved octavia, she guessed it could be him who resulted in this and i still believe it'd have been great to see that last moment before she was floated that i am sure happened between her and bellamy and what they talked about.

anyway- that aside

so his first big tragedy was his mom's passing and clarke's was her dad's and those two deaths shape their stories going onward.

bellamy is all heart, he is all family, he is all about saving those you let into your heart and fighting for them no matter what. his tragedy is that he loves too much and in his love he makes mistakes because he just wants them to be okay but they never truly are no matter what he does, right?

he is a character looking within, both himself and everyone else-he loves passionately and dearly and it is to a point that can kill him and everyone else as it becomes reckless in its goodness-so those are both his blessings and his curse.

aurora set a model for him-family is everything.

i think one problem the show never truly managed to fix is that octavia and bellamy's protective streak over her sl ended in season 1. bob talks about it himself-it was finished and from then on it should've only ever extended to the others AND octavia but not just her. that works well in season 2 and 3 but then it regresses after her beating and HIS beating up over what happened and what he did for the good of the many that ended up leading to a massacre. and they never let him get rid of that constant self-beating that chases him from the moment his mom dies.

so we have bellamy, family, heart.

clarke's model is quite the opposite, set as an example by her dad who wants to tell the truth about the ark and let people decide, take care of THE many, not the FEW or just HIS family. clarke takes up on that model and she never stops fighting for it. on many instances she doesn't just fight for the 100, she fights for her father too and for what this belief that people deserve the truth and that THEIR people should be saved stands for, right?

so she is external, head.

and what i think makes both of them as characters and as a dynamic so unique and why people love the head and the heart parallel is THEIR meeting point.

ultimately bellamy and clarke fight for the same thing, coming from different angles. so bellamy extends his heart to not just his sister, but jasper, monty, monroe, harper, etc, all the hundred and grows to LOVE and care for them as HIS family, as part of one WHOLE and he FIGHTS for that family and Clarke looks on it logically, accepts the 100 as HER people now who she has to TAKE care of like her dad wanted to take care of the arkers and she intends to fight tooth and nail to do this.

apart from those first big tragedies that set the trajectories of who they are as people, as characters, i'd rather say for Clarke her first next big tragedy is killing Finn and Mount Weather and for Bellamy it is Mount weather and then the bombings of it that results in Gina's death.

Those two lead to two bigger tragedies and mistakes-one is losing L/exa for Clarke and the massacre for Bellamy as well as Lincoln's demise.

That is why by the time they reach season 4 I believe both of them are sad and d.epressed as fuck, say what you want about it but so many things in the dialogue point out to it, for Clarke it is so pronounced you can basically shudder if you take out just those lines of hers and frankly I think so is for Bellamy.

They believe they ultimately failed at their goal-they tried to do the best to save their kids/their people by killing other kids/people and losing others that they loved-they are so lost and alone that I think both of them in a way welcome the death wave and don't believe they should ever survive or outrun it.

And as much as I don't like the time jump it was in part a necessity. They couldn't keep being the same people IF we wanted to see them alive-they simply had stopped existing they were so sad, so they had to be buried in the ashes and reborn and they were.

How well it was done is another question but anyone who fails to see what happened to them isn't really paying attention.

So...that's all I guess LOL.

#bellarke #bellarkeedit #bellarke meta #bellamy blake #clarke griffin #the 100 #my ramblings #that nobody cares about #answered

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samiralula01 · 4 years ago

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Jason Todd is the Anti-Batman

* A pointless rambling of the relationship and parallels between Bruce Wayne and Jason Todd.

Picture this opening scene: There are two boys in a dark alley.

One is dressed in an expensive suit with a tie his dead father helped him with only earlier that evening. His hands are stained red with the same blood now puddled on the grimy cement. His face is in shock.

The second boy is dressed in tattered jeans and hoodie. His hands are stained with tires grease and are clutching a tire iron. His face is in shock.

Decades later, there are two more scenes to consider.

A seriously injured man sits slumped over in his father’s study. Without warning, a bat crashes through the window, and everything falls into place. He now knows what he needs to do.

Elsewhere, an emotionally distraught teenager is curled up into a fetal position on a hotel room floor. Heart wrenching cries can be heard from him. But it is only momentary. He now knows what he needs to do.

These two individuals are Bruce Wayne and Jason Todd. While they are both broken and determined men, Batman is a hero. The Red Hood is not. He is the anti-Batman and this is why.

Two Boys in an Alleyway

Despite similarities in their stories’ early themes and elements, Bruce and Jason came to walk down very different paths. One of justice, and the other vengeance. Batman is determined to protect the innocent and Jason more so on punishing the guilty. Both their ideologies have intrinsic flaws, of course, and will naturally clash often. But this wasn’t always the case.

Before they became a father and son perpetually in mourning for who they once were and what could have been, Bruce and Jason were remarkably similar. The two are cut from the same cloth and Bruce knows this better than anyone else.

In the Dumpster Slasher three-part story line, (Batman #414, #421, #422) Bruce becomes emotional. Violent. He sits in the batcave alone that night and contemplates his emotions.

“Nearly blew it. I let it get too personal. Lost my detachment...nearly lost control. Almost beat Cutter to death. Wouldn’t have been any big loss.”

Only one issue later, at the end of this story arc, Robin is out on the streets and becomes angry when he happens upon a pimp is threatening a prostitute with a knife. Now, I want you to compare his line here to Bruce’s and note what Jim Gordon said to him as well.

Batman: "I think he’s had enough, Robin. What were you trying to do, kill him?" Robin (Jason): “Would it’ve been that big of a loss if I had?”

It is important to note here that Batman is not worried or upset just because Jason roughs up a pimp. That would be hypocritical considering his own earlier actions. If anything, it’s because one of the main reasons Batman even takes in these kids, these ‘robins,’ is because he doesn’t want them to be like him.

And Jason was acting just like him.

Jason can and has screwed up and failed due to his own actions, but it was never the reason Batman became upset with him. His reactions in the comics when Jason does things like running ahead and ‘jumping the gun,’ are more like this:

He either makes a teaching moment out of it or is attempts to understand Jason’s reasons in doing any such thing. When Bruce does become harsh in his discipline, it’s either when he feels as though Jason has endangered his own life or as I said, he acts too much like him.

While there are quite a few more similarities between Bruce and Jason that makes them alike, such as both being introverted and interested in obtaining all sorts of knowledge that they might not even feel is relevant, they are both, at the core of their characters, deeply caring and compassionate people.

The differences only start to show with how they act on it.

The Not-So Dynamic Duo?

“What happened to you as a child, the terror, the pain, the horrors (...) you were broken, and I thought I could put the pieces back together. I thought I could do for you what could never be done for me. Make you whole.”

Hot take. Jason Todd is a villain and is best written as a villain.

Not in that campy way like he’s written during Dick and Damian’s Batman and Robin run while wearing that stupid pill-headed hood, (although, I grant he has a few lines that are enjoyable to read) but in all his serious, vengeful and downright brutal motives.

The Red Hood is the perfect Batman villain because he’s so different from what the widely perceived perfect foil to the controlled and disciplined Bat is...the Joker.

The Red Hood was vengeance at its purest. It is justice without being tempered by mercy. It is the rage of victims who were forgotten to become statistics. While other vigilantes wait for a cure, hope for rehabilitation, and pretend their system works, the Red Hood is a man of no such faith.

And this makes him a villain. And a damn good one.

During the Red Hood’s time as a crime lord in Gotham, he goes around blowing up buildings. He throws grenades into trucks. He mows down his competition with gunfire. Batman comes upon the bloodied hanged corpse of a man he was finished interrogating.

But what is so compelling about this all is that before all the murder, all the guns and explosions, Jason Todd was a very different little boy. And all the great and memorable villains start that way.

The Joker is not someone you’re meant to sympathize with or even understand. In fact, I find him more terrifying because he’s unknown. He has no backstory (unless you want to believe the one he gave in Killing Joke, but the clown has a new story for every face he meets) and seemingly does what he does for a laugh of all things.

Jason Todd is in pain. He’s traumatized. Betrayed. Buried. Replaced. He is no one’s son because his father abandoned him.

Once upon a time, Jason Todd was a boy who saved himself. One of the biggest lies that Batman himself perpetuates is that he saved Jason from a life of crime. He tells Alfred that Jason was always dangerous. Bruce simply took him off the streets before he could be any worse.

But I don’t believe that’s true.

Jason grew up surrounded by crime, poverty, substance abuse and yet this amazing kid saved himself everyday by making a conscious choice to be kind and care about school, care about keeping his mother alive for over a year when he was just a child himself. That amazing kid was magic.

Jason Todd as Robin was magic.

“Jason smiles. A bright smile. The kind Robin, the Boy Wonder should have.”

A good portion of his character’s assassination was in order to push the Tim is the perfect Robin idea. It was editorial decisions. The same ‘suits’ who insisted that Tim Drake be the Robin in the New Adventures cartoon despite having Jason’s backstory and personality. But I digress on that.

Jason Todd was an introverted, studious, and emphatic person. He wanted to make friends with other kids his age even though he was a loner at heart. He joined the school baseball team and was a class officer, even if his training kept him from most social interactions.

He was also very much in tune with non-verbal cues and small changes in the environment around him. He was a thoughtful person who could be found admiring the stars or passing by scenery. When he teams up with the New Teen Titans, we get to see these aspects of his personality:

“I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything so beautiful before. We’re actually riding above the clouds.”

“Every so often, I notice you become awfully agitated...like something was going on you didn’t want to be part of. Something’s wrong, isn’t it?”

It didn’t take Bruce long to fall in love with this boy and ask to legally adopt him. He found him to be smart, thoughtful, quick at learning and funny as hell. Their first meeting opens with Batman laughing in the very same alley his heart was ripped out decades earlier.

Even in the Rebirth canon, (RHATO #48) we see that Bruce is already set on taking in Jason while he’s still with Ma Gunn’s school. He likes this kid. A lot.

“Butler, actually. You’ll meet him someday, I’m sure.”

Jason Todd was happy. Most of the time. Unfortunately, he still wrestled with depression and would sleep all day on occasion and could be found crying hidden away on his own, withdrawn from the concerned Bruce and Alfred.

In A Death in the Family, Alfred and Bruce sit down and discuss Jason’s worsening mental health, particularly after the Diplomat’s Son where Jason becomes witness to sexual assault, suicide and the failings of both Batman and the GCPD to protect innocent people. Barbara, his tutor, someone he cared about and got along with, is also shot a few months earlier.

Bruce thinks Jason has become suicidal. Alfred does not disagree with this theory and supplements it with things he’s observed himself about the ‘lad.’

“I’ve come upon him, several times, looking at that battered old photograph of his mother and father, crying. When he’s seen me, he’s hidden the picture and left the room, refusing to talk.”

It is then that Jason discovers the truth about his mother at the worst possible time, when he’s not even thinking straight, and thus leads way to the tragedy that will be his murder at the hand’s of the Joker.

The Curse of Jason Todd

“Do you have any idea what you have done?! Do you? You have no inkling of what you’ve created -- what you have unleashed! You have set free a curse upon this world!”

Red Hood: Lost Days, which depicts Jason’s dark post-resurrection origin, opens with Ra’s al Ghul bellowing this line, the steam from the Lazarus Pit still rising off of him.

I’m not going to analyze this line, I’m just using it to supplement a point of mine I hope I’m getting through well enough. The Red Hood is a compelling, tragic villain. He is similar to Batman in ways that Bruce always knew and may have even feared because of how intimately he knows his own deepest, darkest thoughts. Jason is the perfect foil as an antagonist for him because of what he represents to Bruce.

And it’s not his anger, or his rage, or even his brutality.

It’s his compassion. His caring. His emotions. And how they can open up the worst parts of themselves.

Both are motivated by preventing whatever trauma happened to them from ever happening to anyone else. They both trained for years with this motivation. And they’ve both acted out on the very person who inflicted their trauma onto them.

Here’s where their paths start to differ, however, and what separates them with a line of morality.

They both get angry. They both care so damn much. About Gotham, about innocents, about each other. They both get too emotionally invested and deal with consequences related to that. To manage with that, Bruce shuts down. He creates all these choices, rules and symbols. He uses every ounce of his self control to keep them.

Bruce Wayne is not a good person. He forces himself to be with discipline and will. He chooses to be a good man and constantly pushes himself to live up to that. Because it’d be too damn easy to be just like the Red Hood.

Jason doesn’t understand that. Because no matter what Bruce had done or will do, he doesn’t hate him. He can’t. Despite his denial of the fact to different people, he still thinks of Bruce as his father. This great figure that so many others revere and are even intimidated by.

He’s not the only bat-kid to think of Bruce in this light despite the fact that the man is not. It took Dick years to overcome that perception. Tim only just started to begin understanding this true nature after his own father was murdered.

But even if he did understand his (once)father, he still became the complete opposite of him despite so many early parallels. He doesn’t hold back his words and emotions, he doesn’t go into a state of controlled dissociation or emotional disengagement.

Jason Todd—the Red Hood—is Batman without all his rules and control. In a way, he’s what the darkest part of Batman himself wants to be. Jason does what Batman can’t do when it’s needed.

Because in Batman’s book, life beats out justice. Even if he could take down abusers and murderers, he won’t. He will choose saving and protecting lives over the apprehension of killers...he always does.

Batman is justice. Red Hood is vengeance.

Jason is a victim’s fantasy. He punishes and kills the guilty. Something Batman won’t do.

He is the anti-Batman for better or for worse.

#jason todd #bruce wayne #comic meta

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madmaddoxfuryroad · 3 years ago

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HSMTMTS: Season 3 thoughts

So I’ve been ruminating a lot about this show today (like every other day) and I got to thinking about what they might do for season 3. Less so plot-wise (I mean season 2 is just over halfway through), but more about what musical they might do, what the cast might be, and how that could tie into the individual characters and their arcs (some more so than others, but c’est la vie).

In trying to figure out what musical they might do, I started first with the obvious: what does Disney own? I don’t think they would return to the HSM franchise (until the final season, but thoughts on that for another day), so anything related to that and other DCOMs I counted out. I also eliminated all Disney animated/princess films. I love them, don’t get me wrong, but seeing as this season they are doing BATB, I don’t think they would immediately go into another animated-film-adapted-for-broadway right after that. So at that point I wasn’t quite sure where to go. Mary Poppins was really the only other thing that came to mind and while I love the film and broadway show I just don’t think it fits the cast well slash even has enough parts to really showcase them. You have Mary and Bert. And then I guess Mr. and Mrs. Banks? Then the kids are a whole other issue. It just felt messy. So I just started thinking about broadway shows that I like, I mean if they wanted to, Disney has the money and could pay for the rights to use most shows. Then everything fell into place.

Into the Woods. I am 100% positive I am letting my bias for this show cloud my judgement, but if you stick with me, I think I can persuade you (or not, your mind is your own and I respect that). First off, Disney owns it. At least I think they do. They made the movie (RIP), so I am going to safely assume they have the rights at this point. Next, yes it contains fairytale elements, which might make you feel it’s a little too close to BATB, but it is such a deconstruction of fairytales and their tropes that I almost feel like it is an amazing follow up to a more traditional fairytale. It introduces conflict and the real world into these fantasy scenarios, which I feel goes really well with high school in general and growing up, expectations being shattered, and learning to alter your world view (I really love this play). Plus, I think it would be exciting to see this cast do a more broadway-type show. Obviously BATB is a broadway show, but I think there is a lot of reliance on knowing the film and less on the play itself. And not going to lie after Julia Lester’s rendition of “Home” last week (which I have not STOPPED listening to) it would be amazing to hear these teens tackle more broadway-style music. Which, takes me to my final point: the cast. What I love so much about Into the Woods is how it is very much an ensemble cast. Yes some roles are bigger than others, but if you have a named character, odds are it’s a fairly good role. And the whole HSMTMTS cast is so talented, I like the idea of them picking a show where it does not feel like anyone is sidelined with their part. Now the only thing left to do is cast it…

FULL disclosure. I ran into an issue early on that I ended up thinking Ashlyn was perfect for every female role and Seb was perfect for every male role. But I was eventually able to push through and cast it (in my humble opinion) pretty well. So I am just going to go off in the order that I cast them, because I think it will help explain my thought process.

THE CAST

Cinderella - Nini. Once I got over my need to hear Julia/Ashlyn sing “No One Is Alone” (loophole to this coming later), this felt like a pretty natural fit and was one of the easiest to cast. For one, I just think Olivia’s vocal range pairs very well with Cinderella’s and she could do beautifully with her songs like “On the Steps Of The Palace”. But what really got me was the way she parallels the character so perfectly. Cinderella is a character who always dreams of more but isn’t quite sure what that “more” is. And because she isn’t *quite* sure what she wants, the character is often seen grappling with indecision (see: “On The Steps Of The Palace”). Most of Act I is her being stagnant and letting the Prince take the active role. Finally in Act II she starts to get a better sense of who she is, who she wants to be, and what she doesn’t want. So this felt like it tied in really nicely with Nini’s journey and would be a great role for her, especially when…

Cinderella’s Prince - Ricky. Yes, yes I know. Ricky and Nini playing love interests? Groundbreaking. But stay with me. For one, I just like the idea of Ricky not getting the lead male role, and this part is perfect for him, regardless. The whole relationship between Cinderella and her Prince mirrors Nini and Ricky remarkably well. The way the Prince sees Cinderella as this perfect maiden who, if he could just be with her, would be the only thing he would ever want/need. But of course this isn’t realistic and isn’t how relationships work, which they both come to terms with by the end of Act II. Their break-up/parting ways scene might be my favorite in the entire play and I think it would be so great for Ricky and Nini to get to perform. In part because the conclusion of the scene is basically them both admitting that they will always love the idea of the other, even though they don’t actually work as a couple. (**I am operating on the assumption that they will have broken up in season 2 and are still broken up, but never really dealt with it). Honestly I recommend just watching the scene I will link it here (it goes from about 2:12:35-2:15:00). Plus, I could totally see there being an episode where they are trying to rehearse this scene, but it just isn’t working so Miss Jenn has both of them improv it or rewrite the lines to something that might feel more comfortable or personal. And I just see that being a really beautiful moment for the two and a chance for growth and closure. I could go on about this dynamic, but I will move on to my final point: “Agony”. First, while it is mostly a comedic song, you can take just the first verse of the song and recontextualize it really nicely as a Ricky pining kind of song, which I absolutely dig (not quitting on my Rina endgame, and you can’t make me) I mean: “If I should lose her, how shall I regain the heart she has won from me? Agony, beyond power of speech, when the one thing you want is the only thing out of your reach”. And BONUS I think we could also get a full-on version of “Agony” in all its absurdist glory with…

Rapunzel’s Prince - EJ. Well, sort of. Technically, no. BUT for the purposes of “Agony”, yes. At this point EJ will have graduated, but I don’t think he will be written out of the show, so it remains to be seen exactly what his place will be. I just think these two 100% need a song together and this is 100% that song. I could see it being something as simple as EJ is helping out with the show, the unnamed kid playing Rapunzel’s Prince is out, so they have EJ fill in. Or they have to have him go on for that kid last minute during the performance. It’s a quick, easily explainable thing that would have SUCH a great payoff.

Jack - Big Red. This was certainly one of the easier ones to cast, but my first thought was of course Seb. Jack is just a boy whose best friend is his cow and Seb radiates that energy. But I needed him for something else. Enter Big Red, the perfect Jack. For one, Big Red has a lot of that starry eyed wonderment that Jack has, that none of the other characters do. There is a purity and innocence to the way Jack sees a lot of things. That pairs nicely with Big Red. And it also opens the door for him to grow and mature more as a character. By the end of the show, Jack is in a place where is needs to transition more to adulthood and with Big Red being a senior by season 3, I think there is a lot of potential here. Also, with Big Red as Jack, I really like the character he is often paired with in scenes, but I will hold back until I get to them.

Witch - Kourtney. Yes. It is her time. One can debate over which character is the “main character” of Into the Woods, but for me it’s the Witch. And Kourtney deserves this. Did I heavily consider Ashlyn for this as well? You know I did. But I grow more and more confident in the casting of Kourtney the more I think about it. First thing’s first: the Witch belts, and I mean BELTS. Dara is such a powerhouse vocally that she would crush every moment of that; I have total faith. But the Witch also has such quiet and tender moments that people don’t think about as much, but are so necessary for the character to be effective and I think she also has that on lock. We have not seen a ton of it (so I would be eager to get more) but when she did her version of “Beauty and the Beast” she was able to find soft but strong moments in the song, and it was so lovely. Then, from a more thematic POV, the Witch is characterized as “the voice of reason”. While everyone else is running around in their fairytale dream world, she is always the one there dolling out the reality checks. And if that ain’t Kourtney. Basically, I think it is her time to get the lead and she would be amazing in this role.

Baker - Seb. Finally settled on a role for him. But really, how could it be anything else? I have felt since the first time we heard him sing (in Truth, Justice, and Songs in our Key, I think) that he was severely underused. The Baker is essentially the male lead, and he has earned it. I don’t think there’s much more that needs to be said here.

Baker’s Wife - Ashlyn. Here’s the thing: could someone else be cast as Baker’s Wife? Yes. And I am sure they would do a fine job. But the thing about this role is that you often don’t realize how fantastic it is until you see someone really great playing it. There’s heart, humor, tragedy, and so much more all wrapped into this character and I would far and away trust Julia/Ashlyn with this above all others. And Baker’s Wife gets to sing a short reprise of “No One Is Alone” so I get to win both ways. No matter how I try to cast it or rearrange characters, I keep coming back to the fact that Ashlyn is just hands down the correct choice. Plus she is one of the better options when it comes to having chemistry with Seb. And I’m not even talking about romantic chemistry, just more about the camaraderie of it, and being able to really see them as a team worth rooting for. They both have an inherent sweetness that makes you care for them, which is crucial for the show. AND this would be another opportunity for Julia Lester to flex her acting after playing VERY different roles in HSM and BATB. Basically, I don’t know when it happened, but I think I am a Julia Lester stan and I only want what is best for her and I think this is it.

Little Red - Gina. “Didn’t see that one coming did you?” -Pietro Maximoff. And honestly same. There’s always that tough moment in casting when you’ve done the more obvious ones and then you feel sort of stuck with cast choices that weren’t really your choice. But this one really grew on me. Hopefully, I can do it justice. And I will be the first to admit Gina deserves her time to shine because I do think she is amazing. It just isn’t her time yet. It also doesn’t help that Into the Woods is one of the LEAST dance-centered shows and dance it where she really puts all others to shame. So this is where we landed. But it works. I promise. Little Red as a character is pretty naïve, but covers it up with over the top confidence. That feels pretty Gina. I love where her character has gone and all the growth she is displayed in trying to be more vulnerable. But there is still a part of me that does miss mean girl Gina and I think Little Red is a great way to get that energy without backtracking the character development. I don’t think she would be the stereotypical “bratty” Little Red, but I think she could still do something great with it. Also very similar to Jack, Little Red is one of the more innocent characters that has to grow up and face a lot of harsh realities over the course of the play. And I have no doubt Gina would nail that aspect of it, too. And speaking of Jack, Little Red has a number of scenes interacting with him and you know what that means: Gina and Big Red bonding time! I really like the idea of these roles bringing the two closer as friends. And I already head-canon that they would have a ton of fun playing with the fact that they are now Big Red and Little Red (especially since he is on the shorter side and she is on the taller side). Basically I see this as a way for them to build up a really good rapport. I am also pretty convinced that Big Red is a secret Rina shipper, and this would only add to that. And finally even though this is not a dance-heavy show at all, one place where they could add a dance is during “Hello Little Girl”. Now I will be the first to admit that this song is dicey at best, particularly for Disney. But even a scene working on the dance with just the instrumental, no lyrics, could be great. I see it as a partner dance with the wolf (I don’t know dance terms, so maybe this is super vague). And oh, wouldn’t you know it? Cinderella’s Prince is often double-cast as the wolf! (WHAT ARE THE CHANCES) Meaning the Wolf would also be good ol’ Richard Bowen. And I like the idea of getting Rina scenes of them trying to work on the dance, but Ricky is super bad a leading, and they just have fun trying to figure it out. It’s also nice that it is absolutely not a romantic dance so the two wouldn’t feel any added pressure and could just have fun with one another, and that really is when Rina is at its best (not that I would say no to a scene where Gina has to teach Ricky the BATB waltz, but I digress).

Narrator/Mysterious Man - Carlos. By process of elimination, you probably could have guessed who was next. And I know this one also feels like a weird choice but I do kind of love it. First you have the narrator, which is another one of those roles that is only as memorable as the actor playing it, which I think is right up Carlos’ alley. He is always trying to put his unique stamp on things and be memorable and he would take the narrator in a very enjoyable direction. There’s also the matter that I see Carlos as something of an assistant director with Miss Jenn, which makes him a third-party observer of the shows inherently, so it is almost a little meta that he would also end up being the narrator. Then there’s is the mysterious man. I love the idea of Carlos getting to play two very different characters, but I love it even more because the mysterious man is the father of the baker which makes for a lot of sweet moments between the two of them. Yes it might be a little weird for Seblos to be playing father and son, but there is such a vulnerability and tenderness in the moments between the two characters, particularly during “No More” that I can get over it. Because I think they are one of the few pairings on this show that could really pull that off. I just think this character would be a great way to exhibit the range of Carlos.

**BONUS ALTERNATE CASTING**

I really, really love this idea and could not fault them if this was the direction they went, but I ultimately decided against it, mostly because I felt too strongly about another character having the role BUT:

Baker’s Husband - Carlos. I just really love the idea of Seblos getting to be front and center, with their dynamic as the focal point of the show. And honestly Carlos would also do an amazing job as this character. I mean, Seb and Carlos singing “It Takes Two”? How sweet is that? This would also be a great way for the development of their relationship to get a little bit more attention, instead of a side story here and there. There is a lot that could be done with this from a story perspective and I would be here for it.

Unfortunately, then that leaves me unsure of where to put Ashlyn. She could be Jack’s mother, but that feels like such a waste of her. I mean, she would do well and she does have the lead this year, so it’s not SO terrible her having a more minor character, but it just doesn’t feel right. And I really just feel so strongly that she would be the best option for Baker’s Wife out of everyone. And it opens the door to develop the Seb and Ashlyn friendship more, which I am always here for.

Anyway. Those are my thoughts. If you made it this far: wow and thank you!

#hsmtmts #rina #hsmtmts season 3

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tarhalindur · 4 years ago

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The Tragedy of Madoka Kaname

One of the most common charges leveled at Homura, especially in the context of shipping arguments, is that the relationship between the two girls is unhealthy because Homura keeps overriding Madoka’s agency.

It’s not entirely wrong. But it’s also not quite right, either.

Looking over everything again, I rather think that at least in the main series this is partially missing the point, and in the most ironic of ways - most of the accusations about Homura denying Madoka’s agency are, in fact, ignoring Madoka’s own agency.

After all, Gen Urobutchi is notoriously a fan of hamartia - tragedy wherein the downfall of a character flows directly from that character’s own personality and flaws.

Madoka Kaname is not immune to this.

(Spoilers go under the cut.)

There’s a few keystones to Madoka as a series, but the one that’s been drawing the most of my attention is the Junko-Madoka conversation in episode 6. Which does get noted by the fanbase, but there’s one line in particular in the context of Madoka not knowing how to make mistakes that strikes me as critically important and that doesn’t get talked about that often: “The more responsibility you have on your shoulders, the fewer mistakes you can make.”

Junko, as is often the case, pairs being a perceptive judge of her daughter’s character with a understandably very poor assessment of the situation her daughter is in. That line is Madoka’s own hamartia: twice during the series, Madoka makes a small mistake in a situation where all the weight of the world is on her shoulders, with disastrous consequences. (Whether Madoka intended to make either or both of those mistakes? That’s an interesting question. It’s possible. To quote the other Junko line that sticks with me from that conversation, “sometimes, if you’re in a dead end with no way out, making a big mistake is an option”.) The second is the strongest argument for the existence of Rebellion. But it’s the first one that’s relevant here: Madoka’s request to Homura in episode 10 not to let her turn into a Witch.

A completely understandable and even noble request, on the surface.

There’s only one problem.

To wit:

A) Madoka is a show that benefits massively from shifting interpretative lenses, nowhere more so than in scenes like this. (This applies to Madoka’s second mistake, too - the show is meant to be looked at both through a Christian lens and through a Buddhist one, and the mistake is only visible through the latter.)

B) One very old take on magical girls as a genre, dating back IIRC at least as far as Sailor Moon and Card Captor Sakura if not a decade further, is the magical girl transformation as a metaphor for puberty. And we can be quite sure that PMMM is using that take - as Kyubey himself tells us in one of the most infamous (and infamously hard-to-translate because Japanese pun) lines of the series, “in this country they call girls ‘shoujo’, so for girls who grow up to be ‘majo’ is it not appropriate to call them ‘mahou shoujo”?”... operative words “grow up”. (Madoka can be very, very unsubtle when it really wants to make a point, and this is a case in point.)

Therein the problem: from the perspective of PMMM’s version of magical-girls-as-puberty, Madoka’s request can be neatly rephrased as follows: “please don’t let me grow up”.

Homura agrees to this. (This in turn is a mistake on her part, of course. Even setting aside everything else - and as I’m about to get into, that would be a mistake itself - I’m pretty sure it’s counterproductive to what Homura really wants deep down; given the archetype she’s trying to wear and her comments to Madoka in 11, I suspect Homura would be happiest protecting an equal.)

Everything else flows downhill from that.

It’s why Madoka becomes increasingly timid (on the surface, anyways) and unable to do anything at the same time that Homura outgrows (or, more accurately, appears to outgrow - again, parallels) her early-timeline self and becomes increasingly assured and self-confident - as Homura grows up, Madoka is regressing back to a childlike state. (I am, of course, not the first person to note this. But I’ve never seen anyone else note that you can set aside Homura’s agency entirely and still get this result because it’s the logical consequence of Madoka’s own request.)

And it’s why Homura disregards Madoka’s agency. By asking Homura to not let her become a Witch(/not let her grow up), Madoka has inadvertently placed Homura in a parental role over her. And a situation where a child under your care is unwittingly doing something fatally dangerous to themself? That’s exactly a situation where it’s considered acceptable and usually outright praiseworthy to override the child’s agency. (Something Homura is likely quite familiar with given her health issues. Which stands in stark contrast to basically everything else about parenting, given the strong implication that Homura’s parents are either absent or dead.)

And finally, it’s also part of the problem that Homura runs into. After all, there’s one problem with trying to prevent someone from growing up. It doesn’t work. Entropy triumphs. (With one notable in-universe class of exceptions... and oh would you look at that, that exception class is exactly what Madoka eventually turns to to make good her request. For herself and everyone else.)

(The payoff, of course, is Homura breaking down during her conversation with Madoka in episode 11. For what’s probably the first time in subjective years, Homura treats Madoka as basically an equal, trusting her with an explanation of the actual situation. And it works, albeit indirectly; Madoka manages to figure out a solution to the problem after Homura does this.)

(Note also the implicit contrast with Madoka’s other non-biological maternal figure in the series, Mami, whose role is instead to push Madoka to grow up. There’s a reason for the Homura-Mami fight in Rebellion. And I note a couple of existing things suggesting Mami will have a prominent role in Walpurgis no Kaiten...)

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seance · 4 years ago

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2020 content creator tag

RULES: answer the questions and then tag 10+ other creators to answer the questions!

finally got around to do this, terribly late i know and i’m sorry but i swear i wasn’t ignoring all the incredibly talented people who tagged me! thank you so so much for thinking of me guys ♡ probably lost some @ in the process cause my notifs are a mess. @goinesjennifer @juliesmolina @faeryglass @almondchestnut @olisgifs @andyoudoctor @yenvengerberg @iridescentides @juliesmolinas

first creation and most recent creation of 2020: god, i already said this but giffing really became my #1 coping mechanism this year so i have a LOT of stuff just from this year. the first one is this THE WITCHER INTRO CARDS gifset and the most recent is actually my julie’s gifset from yesterday but i’m not satisfied with it so! i’m gonna say this KLAUS AND FIVE PARALLELS gifset instead.

one of your favorite creations from 2020: oof, this is super difficult because i get attached to most of my creations, even if they don’t come out as i initially hoped. i’ll go with this five gifset BIRDS HOVER THE TRAMPLED FIELD just because it’s a perfect example of a rare occurrence aka when both my inspiration and my vision and my skills align and i manage to create something exactly how i first imagined it. and also because i think there’s not better fitting poem for this man.

a creation you’re really proud of: i have a few but maybe this ODE TO NUMBER FIVE gifset just because i had a very specific vibe i wanted to give off and i think i managed alright with the colors, texture and design choices! and then i can’t not mention this YOU WERE ALWAYS GOLD TO ME gifset just because i literally poured all my heart into it. this song and these people mean so so much to me.

a new style you tried this year and a gifset that uses it: my style really evolved at the speed of light starting july and i still can’t believe the things i learned once i just let myself try. i keep having new ideas and trying really hard not to dismiss them and see if they work out, telling myself it’s okay if they don’t! i think this ALLISON HARGREEVES gifset basically has it all: the blending, the font work, the shape play. or even this JATP + BODIES OF WATER type of style, complex blending such as this one WILLEX SUPERSTAR is slowly becoming my trademark and i’m not mad about it, i love playing around with fonts like i did in this ALEXREGGIE gifset even if i know it gets really crowded and hard to read sometimes, or even with lines and block of colors like i did here JATP BORN FOR THIS, i finally got back to play around with textures JATP SCRAPBOOK and even JATP DISCOGRAPHY i also tried my hand at creating entire new “atmospheres” playing with specific visual choices like i did in the HARGREEVES AS PARANORMAL INVESTIGATORS set.

your favorite coloring: okay you guys know coloring is easily my favorite thing to do in the world and i’m usually pretty proud of every outcome because i remember how difficult it was for me, for years i thought i would never learn but i still did it, all by myself just keeping trying like a madwoman lmao basically all my the umbrella academy gifset are my pride and joy because did you see that show? how shitty the lighting is? gifmakers need a miracle every single time. so i’m gonna list a few that i still look at fondly ♥

THE SEVEN HARBINGERS OF THE APOCALYPSE

WILLIE AND CALEB

YOU CAN SET YOURSELF FREE (HARGREEVES)

SEASON ONE FAVORITE EPISODE

ALWAYS GOLD TO ME

THE OLD GUARD + RICHARD SIKEN

a creation that took you forever: basically everything i do ahah just because one way or another i always get stuck on something for hours at end be it the fonts or the colors or the scene choices. but i’d say this STRONGER + HAGREEVES SIBLINGS gifset just because my inspiration went off and i decided i wanted to try a bunch of different techniques all at once and my brain didn’t let me rest until i did it all. to think it all started with just that “everyone will know me by a different name” line, oh my god.

your creation from 2020 that received the most notes: this VANYA + HER SIBLINGS LOVE gifset with 15.406 notes that i kinda hate because what’s up with that font? and the ugly coloring?! totally gonna remake this one because they deserve far better.

a creation you think deserved more notes: oh my god deep down i want to be selfish and say so many because that number never really match the effort i put in most of my gifs but i’ve also learned not to get too bitter about that, few people rb it, even fewer people comment on it but those people are worth more than anyone else. if i had to chose i’d say either the ALWAYS GOLD TO ME set just because it means so much to me, this ALEXREGGIE set that was so fun to make and i love how the colors and the font work came out, this VANYA + EMPATHY set, and this SWEETIE LITTLE JEAN one.

a creation with a favorite scene/quote: i rarely do actual, canonical quotes and i never use just one scene gsjds- so i’ll go with this DIEGO + LOVE FOR HIS FAMILY one even if i don’t like the font and again ALEX&REGGIE being themselves.

a new fandom you joined and a creation you made for it: considering i was already the umbrella academy and the witcher obsessed i’d say the old guard (YOU KNOW ME WELL) and julie and the phantoms (FAVORITE FRIENDSHIP)

a creation you made that breaks your heart: oh, if you know me even one bit you also know i thrive on angsty feelings, they’re usually my main inspiration not gonna lie so choosing is not that simple! again, this KLAUS AND FIVE parallels gifset because of the sheer tragedy of their lives, this SWEETIE LITTLE JEAN five gifset, this KLAUS HARGREEVES one and this I WANNA BE NUMB AGAIN, this DEAR FORGIVENESS, YOUR BOOKER because this man is a walking tragedy (and this PIECES OF ME DIE ALL THE TIME too for good measure) and then this HARGREEVES SIBS + DAUGHTER gifset.

a ‘simple’ creation that you really love: i have brainworms and once i’ve learned how to do something i never manage to come back to the things i did before so i’ve rarely made “simpler” things lately. maybe this JATP + TIMES OF DAY still qualify.

a creation that was inspired by another one (add both your creation and the one that inspired it!): this FAVORITE JATP CHARACTERS with the circle text inspired by this gifset by the loml @evakant // this JATP ROLES with the triangles technique inspired by this work of art by @anya-chalotra and this WARRIOR JULIE set with the text layout inspired by a lovely gifset that now seems to be deleted :(

a favorite creation created by someone else: i love everything my mutuals make but there are some people who really pushed me to always learn more and their gifs are still my absolute favorite thing to date. for example: this THE OLD GUARD TAROTS set by @milkovivhs // this incredible HARGREEVES SIBLINGS one by @yenvengerberg // this GERALT OF RIVIA masterpiece by @anya-chalotra // this CROWLEY set by the queen of colors herself @meliorn

some of your favorite content creators from the year: really too many to count, my mutuals inspire me every single day, the keep my creativity alive and seeing their creations on my dash is always such a treat! so, all the above for sure and then: i‘m stupidly proud of @sunsetscurving i saw her grow into the giffing process with such speed and such vision, everything she does is so pretty, but all my mutuals are incredibly talented. they don’t do anything half-assed, everything they do perfectly mirrors their efforts! @captainheroism @emeraldphantoms @nora-reid @amandaseyfried @rockyblue @juliesmolina @juliesmolinas @lettersdeeplyworn @jakeperalta @kennyortegas @merceralexs @alexreggieluke @calebcovington @andyoudoctor @almondchestnut @iridescentides @number5theboy @evakant

and for good measure, another a couple more creations of yours that you love: excluding all the above i’ll go with

JATP FAVORITE QUOTE

HARGREEVES AS GREEK DEITIES

YOU ARE HERE TO RISK YOUR HEART

THE JATP GEMSTONE SERIES x / x

SOBRIETY IS OVERRATED

AMOR C’HA NULLO AMATO

IF MEMORIES COULD BLEED

this took me so long that everyone else already did it before me so i don’t think i can tag anyone, if you’re reading this and feel like doing it please feel free!

#text #creator tag meme #ari.txt #my eyes are burning so bad this took SO LONG #aodgsd- how did you guys do it so fast?!#maybe i just gif too much sh*t lmao #love you all with ALL my heart

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ariainstars · 4 years ago

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Ben Solo - A Sad Star Wars Story

Warning: longer post. (And possibly, a few unpopular opinions.)

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For a start: I’m not here to say I like how the sequels ended with Episode IX, in particular the way they handled their protagonist.

It sucked, to say the least.

I am writing this because looking back now, I can hardly imagine how the authors could have wrapped up the sequel trilogy with the happy ending we expected.

Let’s start with that word: happy. Honestly, did anyone want Ben to be “happy” with what Rey has become? I did expect her to fall down the rabbit hole. We repeatedly have witnessed how aggressive and judgmental she is; and by all logic, she had to meet her own Dark Side in order to realize that she has no right to judge the man she first knew as Kylo Ren. The moment I heard Palpatine’s evil laugh in the first trailer, I figured he had come to pursue Rey, not him. Unfortunately, her moment of shock was short and she hardly learned from it; if anything, since Luke sent her right back into the battle. This scene may have been what fanbros expected from Luke, but honestly, it was ridiculous. It did not fit to The Last Jedi’s Luke and it did not do Rey any favor.

And: had Ben emerged victoriously, found his happy ending, how would the title “The Rise of Skywalker” be justified? He is a Skywalker by blood, but in fact he is a Solo.

Wrapping Up the Saga

The sequels were received with mixed feelings from the start. Fans of old were angry at The Force Awakens since it seemed to say that history was repeating itself; that the heroes or the original trilogy had brought down the Empire but not managed to preserve peace. We saw them separated from one another as they once had been, disillusioned and worn out. Not the mention the wasp’s nest that was raised by The Last Jedi! If the Prequel Trilogy dismantled the illusion that the Jedi were perfect, the Sequel Trilogy definitively does the same with the Skywalker family. Both messages are clear for everyone to see, provided one is ready and willing to see them.

If Star Wars is a tale with a moral - and given its approach and the fact that it was handed over by Lucas to Disney of all studios it is - then the authors are trying since the 80ies to teach our minds to a compassionate approach on both villains and heroes. One of the main reasons why many fans dislike the prequels is that they expected to see the Jedi and Anakin / Vader being cool; they felt let down by witnessing the Jedi’s narrow-mindedness and Anakin’s strong emotionality. The affronted reactions to The Last Jedi were on the same line of thought. The prequels showed that the Jedi were not the good guys, and for the observant viewer this is already clear enough in the original trilogy. But it was only with The Last Jedi that the elephant in the room was finally approached.

Through Rey, The Rise of Skywalker makes clear that wanting to be a Jedi does not entail actual heroism but the conviction of being a hero. And Rey’s dyad in the Force, the tragic figure of Ben Solo, warns about the dangers coming from a child and teenager no one believed in as a person because everybody only saw his powerful potential.

The Jedi’s Failure

Neither Luke nor Anakin nor Rey needed the Jedi in order to become heroes. They already were good-hearted, brave and idealistic when we first met them. The Jedi ways did not make any of them happy; they learned to use their powers and employed them for short-lived “victories”, but they never found lasting peace.

Not a few fans have wondered how Luke Skywalker, who believed in his father despite all, could give up on his nephew that fatal night (even if it was only a moment of panic). Simply put: as strong and mature as he is by the time of Return of the Jedi, Luke suffers from a father trauma, and he desperately wishes for Vader to become Anakin again, his father, who used to be a hero. When he asks Vader to leave and come with him, it is not out of pure idealism but also a personal request. But Luke did not need his nephew. The moment he had at the temple was a personal issue, it had little to do with Ben’s strength in the Force or his status as Luke’s model student: Luke was afraid that Ben would be the end of everything he loved. Luke, Leia and Han were thrown together by a trauma bonding; Ben had no place with them because he hadn’t been through the same.

The actual tragedy in Ben Solo’s life was the bitter realization, over and over, that he was not needed by anyone (except for being abused, e.g. by Snoke). Ben desired Rey even before he had met her because she was powerful but unexperienced, and he hoped to find sense and belonging by protecting and instructing her. No wonder Rey’s rejection in the Throne Room drove him out of his mind with rage: it was another confirmation of what he had experienced all his life - that people can do without him. So he decided, bitterly and sullenly, that he could do without others as well. But over and over, he had to realize that he could not escape his want for connection. He kept hunting for Rey; and he was very conflicted both when it came to his father and his uncle, letting on that he did have an emotional connection with both of them although he didn’t want to accept it.

Ben’s tragedy was that he did not want to be special at all, and that contrarily to his uncle and grandfather he was aware of it. Ben simply wanted to belong somewhere.

It is an intrinsic part of the saga that a hero is never a hero “because he is superior to others for… reasons”: Star Wars does not bow to that cliché. Some people are born with the capacity to tap into the Force, but not all of the saga’s heroes have it. The morally good qualities a person has, the right decisions they make are not inborn but passed on, learned, communicated. In A New Hope Luke was saved by Han, to whom he had offered companionship and set an example by trying to save Leia. In Return of the Jedi Vader was won over by his son’s loyalty and sacrifice. For an average action film hero, this kind of attitude or outcome of his adventures would be unacceptable: a hero is expected to be triumphant, not saved by someone else. And I know enough fans who don’t understand Luke and prefer Han or Vader to him, who are both cooler and more predictable.

In film, where characters need to be introduced to the audience within the scope of minutes, narratives are applied in a way that the general audience gets them quickly. The downside is that this goes at the expense of nuances. Fans don’t like to see Anakin being passionate and stormy because as Darth Vader he was coded as brutal but cool; they don’t get Obi-Wan’s many mistakes because he was coded as a hero, or Yoda’s arrogance due to his status as a wise old mentor. The sequels brought this dichotomy to a new level coding Rey as the heroine although she has a bad attitude and comes from bad blood, and Ben Solo as the villain when his attitude is conflicted at worst, and who is the offspring of the original story’s heroes. The difference lies in their intentions - hers are good, his are bad. This is interesting because it makes us, the audience, question ourselves as to how and why we believe we can tell good from evil.

You could probably say into a megaphone that the Jedi are not the good guys who always win, that the Force is not a superpower belonging only to the Jedi and that there is no simple Dark and Light but that the Force needs balance: some viewers will never get it. I guess everybody feels the saga’s subtext on a subconscious level; but woe betide if someone like Rian Johnson brings it up to the surface for everyone to see.

Narrative Key

One of the main reasons why The Last Jedi is so divisive is, I think, that its major theme connecting all of the others is communication. While the prequels told much about miscommunication or lack thereof, Episode VIII is packed full of beautiful examples of what happens when people actually manage to communicate; and even when they do not, they learn from their misunderstanding one another (e.g. Poe with Admiral Holdo).

It is a common but major mistake not to question the narrative key to a story. Many Star Wars fans believe the story is simply about the good guys defeating the bad guys, so they overlook the deeper themes of the saga and respond with outrage when the authors try to humanize their heroes, bringing them down from their alleged pedestal. It is e.g. helpful to know Joseph Campbell’s monomyth theory; to consider that a film saga is not the same as a TV show and that therefore if the characters go through changes these must be significant from one instalment to the next due to the time limitations; to watch a few films by Akira Kurosawa, in particular The Hidden Fortress, to understand the significance of a major event seen through different eyes; or consider the prequels’ parallels with legends, classic literature, or the Bible - Lucifer’s fall, Romeo and Juliet, the tales of King Arthur. Star Wars is a conglomeration of many narratives, from Western films to the Japanese to French fairy tales to Greek mythology to Shakespearean drama. Who approaches these films expecting mere “action” is bound to be disappointed. It is understandable, however, that if you are used to certain kinds of stories, you will assume that every story should basically follow the same lines, and you will have difficulties accepting anything that is different, or believe it’s just badly made.

I still remember the (sometimes vicious) quarrels I followed in an online forum a few years ago about a Japanese mecha anime who some fans by hook or crook wanted to fit into the structure of a French novel. Of course, those two narratives don’t fit together: no wonder most of the other fans didn’t accept that kind of interpretation.

The Phantom of the Opera’s film version of 2004 was largely a failure both with regard to quality and audience appreciation because it made a tacky Byronic romance of a story that actually is a mystery thriller, probably expecting that it would be more appealing that way. What the filmmakers accomplished was making the story flat and the characters annoying by stripping them of the drama behind the original story.

Filming Rebecca’s film version from 1940 Hitchcock managed the transition excellently maintaining the storyline of the original novel; but Daphne duMaurier’s book is a coming-of-age story, and who expects a crime thriller may feel irritated by the narrators’ meandering and detailed inner monologue.

Game of Thrones also could not culminate in “all’s well that ends well”. The last season was not well-made, but I think now that was not the whole reason behind the audience’s disappointment. The show always was very crude and included loads of horrific events; even the worst victims of the war, who seemed to have a justification for their actions and seemed well-meaning, at times did terrible things. It would be a misfit to apply a happy ending to a “sex and violence” narrative as with another martial epic, like Aeneid and Iliad. Who waits for happy endings ought to avoid this kind of story from the start. (Yes, I know, I should listen to my own advice - had I imagined how depressing Rogue One is, Star Wars fan or not, I would probably have skipped it.)

Stories of this kind can be dissatisfying because as an audience, we follow our heroes’ adventures, sometimes for years, and we usually want to see them to find their happiness in the end. But in all honesty: we should have imagined.

That is why I think it was naïve to believe that the sequel trilogy would lead Ben to a happy ending with Rey. I have read more than one fanfiction which irritated me at first, until I realized that they were told on the lines of Fifty Shades of Grey, or Pride and Prejudice. That may work well for a fanfiction, but Star Wars is not a mere romance. Even if there was a hint of the overture to Romeo and Juliet during the abduction: couples based on that trope are not destined to end well. I myself was hoping for a happy ending due to the fact that the saga’s rights were in the hands of Disney of all production companies; and giving that the Skywalker family is one of the most famous in pop culture, I was certain they wouldn’t wipe them out. However I was not quite sure how they would do that and make it convincing, and I was wary when it came to the assumption (which many Reylo’s took for granted) that the love between Rey and Ben would be strong enough to save the galaxy and give them a happy ever after.

When a guy is introduced by murdering a defenseless old man, letting an entire village be wiped out with practiced ease, going on with torturing another guy both physically and mentally and climaxing with the horrible crime of patricide, one can hardly expect a happy ever after for him; even less since so very little was explained in terms of his childhood and adolescence. Some viewers identified with Ben Solo and saw his abandonment and abuse issues; many others didn’t, and none of the sequel films really thematized them. That he made peace with his parents and died to save the girl he loved is sufficient for a convincing redemption arc, not to offer him a happy closure.

The Trope That Comes Closest

There were a lot of speculations with regard to the trope Ben (Kylo) and Rey were actually modelled on. Romeo and Juliet, Hades and Persephone, Pride and Prejudice or Beauty and the Beast, and there were probably more. Rian Johnson is known for loving The Phantom of the Opera more than any other musical. I don’t think that’s coincidental.

- The phantom is disfigured by birth, Ben is extremely powerful by birth; and Ben also gets disfigured by Rey during their duel. (Vader’s sunken, charred face under the mask was, for a long time, how I imagined the phantom unmasked by the way.) - The phantom is highly intelligent and has huge musical talent. Ben was born with a strong power in the Force. - Both wear masks and look much less threatening without them. They also wear a cloak, and black clothes. - The phantom had committed terrible crimes both to protect himself and to punish a world which would not accept him. Sounds familiar? - In the musical we do not get to know how he became a ruthless monster in the first place. Ditto. - The phantom dies (or disappears, in the musical) because only the girl knew that he was lonely and unhappy and that he still had goodness inside him. She had forgiven him, but the rest of the world wouldn’t have believed her or forgiven him.

Both Kylo Ren and the Phantom are creatures who are at the same time terrible and wonderful. The normal world, populated by average people, cannot accept them because they are both too fascinating and too terrifying. In order to find lasting fulfilment, Ben ought to have found back to humanness. The phantom couldn’t due to his disfigurement and his criminal past; and though Ben loses the scar on his face, the Cain’s mark of the patricide he committed, his deed and his former status as Supreme Leader of the First Order never would have been forgotten.

“Yet in his eyes all the sadness of the world Those pleading eyes that both threaten and adore…” Christine in The Phantom of the Opera (on the rooftop)

Heroes: Dynamic and Static Characters

A general rule of storytelling is differentiating between dynamic and static (also called “impact”) characters. A static character is like an anchor for others: while they live through crises, learning and maturing, this character always remains his old self and always stands for the same values. He may be misunderstood, opposed and belittled, he may lose the battle, but never the war; and after having helped others through their troubles, he usually is on his own. (Cue: cowboy riding into the sunset.)

Superman stands for peace and justice, Jack Sparrow for freedom, Peter Pan for the innocence of childhood, Paddington for faith in people’s goodness. No wonder they are so popular: it is familiar and reassuring to follow the adventures of someone who is always like a rock in a storm. Static characters are in essence childlike, two-dimensional; which is probably why our child self easily gets attached to them and may be outraged at the idea of them changing, or maybe (gasp) being wrong about something.

But George Lucas developed his saga along the lines of personal growth, and by exploring its themes: thankfully, otherwise it would have become as boring and repetitive as so many other franchises. To continue a story you can either make it dynamic, or press the repeat button over and over. The Skywalker men with their strong emotionality may be unusual heroes, but much more interesting than other, “cooler” guys whose actions are more or less foreseeable. So, I can understand the Disney studio’s choices. On the other hand, it is not surprising when fans of old get angry when their supposedly unalterably perfect heroes make mistakes: everybody wants to know that some things (or persons) never change. Even if on the long run, change might be for the better.

I think one of the sequels’ most important messages was that the Skywalker-Organa-Solo family failed their heir precisely because their mindset did not change. Ben grew up in another world than they did; obsolete political structures, dictatorship or rebellions did not matter to him. But his family wanted him to adhere to the ideals that had gotten them through the war against the Empire, discouraging him from searching and finding his own place in the world, a world that now was very different both from the old Republic and the Empire.

Whether a static or dynamic character is more relatable to the audience is a personal matter. Many fans adore Darth Vader, Leia and Han Solo etc. precisely for the fact that basically they always remain their old selves. Padmé also is a favorite, probably due to the fact that she does not change considerably. Anakin changes a lot, which is perceived as a sign of weakness. Some fans may relate more to Luke, who undergoes serious trials and emerges from them stronger and wiser, far away from the greenhorn he was in A New Hope. And yet Luke’s final decision to throw his weapon away before Palpatine is often perceived as weird to this day. It’s not “heroic”.

The outraged fans who ranted at Luke’s portrayal in The Last Jedi did not realize that Luke was doing something both Obi-Wan and Yoda, or the other Jedi for that matter, never had done: he took responsibility for his actions. In this context Ben was the audience’s self-insert, he was as appalled at Luke’s misstep as we were. Such a blow is enough to send someone on a lonely island to meditate about his mistakes for years, convinced that the world is better without him.

But for the action film audience, that is not acceptable. If you have a light sabre and the Force (an alleged superpower), what do you need responsibility for? You can’t do wrong if you’re the hero, right? Luke also was the only character from the original trilogy who underwent character growth, which makes it all the more ironic that the many, many critics who tear the sequels to pieces are fuming at how Luke could be so “defiled”. Luke grew beyond the person he had been in A New Hope; these fans obviously did not. Which is why the studios thought they had to produce The Rise of Skywalker in order to “appease” them and to give them the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

Where Does the Galaxy Go From Here?

A conversation between my husband and me, about a year before The Rise of Skywalker came out.

Me: “I hope Ben Solo will survive at the end of the trilogy.” Him: “I do hope that, too. But they won’t give him a happy ending.” Me: “Why?” Him: “He killed his own father.”

I hate to admit it, but he was right. I’m not aware what ethics code is under use in the film industry now, but in any case, the horrible crime of patricide was done; even if it was under coercion, the son traumatized by it, and it ultimately brought him back to redemption. You can’t make a patricide, the former right hand and for a time leader of a terrorist organization a hero and give him a happy ending; in particular when you are Disney of all film studios. (Not to mention that he killed Han Solo, a very popular character.) And from exchanges with other viewers I am aware that many do not understand how Ben killed Han under Snoke’s coercion, and the implications that led him to kill Snoke: they believe he simply did it because it’s something an evil, power-hungry person will do.

Ben dying without anyone knowing that he was not a villain at heart and worse, leaving the fates of the galaxy in the hands of a young woman whom we often saw giving in to evil influences again and again within the scope of minutes was a dangerous turn. If he was but “a child in a mask”, Rey is a child who believes to be a Jedi. How is Rey supposed to be a heroine, with the other half of her soul gone? She and Ben fitted together perfectly because she had the good intentions but a violent attitude, while his intentions were bad but his attitude desperately conflicted because inherently good. Rey came from evil blood but was kind-hearted because she believed in her parent’s love. Ben was the heir of a family of heroes but did not feel loved by them, which made him lonely and bitter. What good is Rey on her own, even more so when at the end of Episode IX she deliberately leaves her friends and goes to a literal desert? The little girl inside of her is still starving for connection, and neither being a Jedi nor a “Skywalker” will appease her. She had to meet Luke to realize that he was a good man but still just a man; a lesson she didn’t quite internalize yet. The sequel trilogy wasn’t her story because her personality hardly developed. It was Ben who went through hell and back.

Films (and film sagas) have a determined length and as a film studio you need time to explore all themes, which in Star Wars are quite complex. The worst mistake I found with Episode IX was that it broke the Campbellian monomyth in favor of a Marvel type B-movie to appease the fans of old who had hated The Last Jedi. Which is understandable from their point of view, but went at the expense of quality. The Rise of Skywalker may have quenched the fire a little, but as a film, it’s frankly forgettable, and compared to the other films from the saga, I doubt that it will age well. Had the sequel trilogy continued Rian Johnson’s approach instead of putting a band-aid on The Last Jedi, it would have been good enough to make a cultural impact the way the classics did. If the sequel trilogy was meant to follow The Hero’s Journey, no one completed it: Ben died and Rey went into exile, and no one brought any kind of elixir or salvation into the world.

All of this is not to say that I have grown to like The Rise of Skywalker and that I am not disappointed about the ending, or no longer sad about Ben Solo’s death. I hope that the next trilogy will give him a second chance: I am still convinced that his ultimate fate should have been to bring lasting Balance to the Force. If I am wrong and his existence practically cancelled the past without improving anything, the whole saga loses its sense. I think that by now he atoned more than enough for his sins.

When I learned that Rian Johnson had negotiated his own trilogy after The Last Jedi, I remember wondering what it would be about. After all, almost everything had been said about the Skywalker saga, hadn’t it?

It hadn’t. I had naively assumed that like with Episodes III and VI, the final revelations were preserved for Episode IX. By now it seems to me like The Rise of Skywalker is meant as an appetizer for the next sequel. It can’t be that the studios unlearned how to make good films in so short a time after The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, also considering that everything else they made about Star Wars in between (Rogue One, Solo, The Mandalorian) is solid work and not by a long shot as flat as Episode IX.

The studios assuredly will keep their secrets as long as they can. The Mandalorian was met with huge expectations, yet nobody knew about Baby Yoda before the first episode was aired. Due to their depth and love for details, Star Wars films can be watched and discussed over and over, and the message regarding the necessity of Balance is still widely unknown or not accepted by the fans. If this is supposed to be not only an entertaining but also an educational tale, authors must give new fans room to get to know the saga, and old fans time to let the new ideas sink in. Lucas and his collaborators have taken decades trying to teach us that morals are not black and white. But still when The Last Jedi came out, the message was utterly hated.

Whatever Johnson’s trilogy will be about, it can’t be a part of the Skywalker saga any more: they are all dead. Even if Ben is brought back somehow, he is a Solo, so this time it would be the story of his own family. The Skywalker saga was basically Anakin’s, and by reconciling with a Palpatine and giving his life to save the woman he loved his grandson ultimately made up for his sins. The Last Jedi was a bold move; but what are “bold moves” supposed to be good for if they are not followed through? Apart from the fact that the sequels weren’t even exactly bold but drawing sums from what we already could see in original trilogy and prequels about the Jedi and the old Republic.

Family Is the Key

Star Wars is a family tale. It is for families and it is about families. One of the most frustrating things about The Rise of Skywalker was, for me, that the “new” heroes didn’t make any kind of home or family of their own; and a Star Wars film or series never works without a father figure at its heart. I am sure Ben Solo was ultimately meant to be a father figure; the sequels couldn’t work without even giving him the chance to be one. Anakin and Luke both founded a family - one through marriage, the other befriending many different people. The third generation did not even get a chance either way.

“I believe that you are redeemed by your children.” George Lucas

In Star Wars, children always have to pay for their parent’s sins, and only they can make them atone. Which makes it all the more tragic that Ben is not a father; by this logic, only his child could have saved him, or an adopted one. On seeing the enslaved children of Canto Bight, of whom one is Force-sensitive, I was convinced that the sequels would be the children’s trilogy. (I might have accepted Ben dying had he saved and left them with Rey, who also is an abandoned child and so would have found a meaningful task.)

What the galaxy needs most are not heroes but people. Heroes exist to save desperate situations; lasting peace can only be made by normal people. With Luke becoming a hero in the original trilogy and Anakin a villain in the prequels, I was expecting Ben to find back to humanness. Since we have another trilogy to look forward to, I do still hope Ben will get another chance and this time he will find his happiness; but I also believe that he will have a long way to go before that. By the end of The Rise of Skywalker he is a hero, but in order to be happy he would need to learn how to be fully human, realigning both sides of his personality and healing the gap between them (the way Anakin couldn’t). And you don’t learn how to embrace your humanness quickly after having lost it within the scope of years and years. Ben wanted Rey because she was the only person in the galaxy with whom he could be completely honest. But being human also entails bonding with other people, not only with one’s significant other.

Ben tried to pull off the “bad guy” role and failed because it’s not in his nature. A lot of fans see him as a loser, because whether good or evil, a male protagonist is supposed to be always unfazed. The gentle, nurturing and emphatic personality that comes out in Ben when he is balanced is not that of a warmonger but of a peacekeeper: I see nothing inacceptable or emasculating in that. Unfortunately, who has Luke, Anakin or Han as blueprints for “real” men, won’t accept someone like Ben Solo. I hope that in time, he will be more appreciated, and that his life story will be a warning both for the audience and for the saga itself, i.e. that it is more to the point not to punish a criminal but to prevent him from becoming that way in the first place. Which brings us again to the topic of children and a better way to raise them, Force-sensitive or not.

Rey and Ben both are children with unhealed wounds. Their brief moment of harmony during the Force connection on Ahch-To was so powerful because both were speaking to each other’s inner child: Ben saying to Rey that she was not alone, Rey offering Ben an understanding he had not known before. Padmé also always saw in Anakin the good little boy she had first met; one of the reasons of the unbalance in their relationship was that he felt powerless to do something for her in return.

I think that the sequel trilogy of the Skywalkers wanted to tell us is that even if you save the whole galaxy, it’s not sufficient if afterwards you can’t support and protect your own offspring. When we met Han, Leia and Luke again, their personalities were pretty much as we left them; their mistake in handling Ben can’t have been something they actually did to him, the blunder must lie somewhere in their attitude. All three of them were traumatized by cruelly losing or never having known a healthy family life, so we must assume that after the war against the Empire, they tried to build a new world that would fit to their needs. But if adults build a home, they must do so thinking first and foremost not of themselves but of the ones who need it more than them. Children shape the future, not a victory of “good” over “evil”. And I find it interesting that the codebreaker DJ, who had such a pragmatic view of war, was also someone we met on Canto Bight, like the children. He was a traitor, but as everyone in the saga, even he had a point when he said that ultimately, wars are useless because they always flare up again.

“Good, bad, made-up words. You blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow.” DJ in The Last Jedi

The last scene of The Last Jedi showed us a Force-sensitive boy sweeping an open space before looking up at the sky and dreaming about being a Jedi. I still believe that this scene’s meaning was “Clear the stage, it’s time for us - the children.”

The Jedi, respectively Force-sensitive creatures, must find new and better ways if they want to be advocates for peace and justice. No institution can claim to have a moral standard if it does not protect, nurture and encourage their most vulnerable and needful members, i.e. the children. Watching the prequels it is shocking to follow how the intelligent, brave and affectionate child Anakin could become the most hated man in the galaxy, crushed in the powerplay between the “good but narrow-minded guys” and the “bad but not always wrong” guys. Both his and his grandson’s dark fate could have been avoided, had it not been for the Jedi mentality based upon the conviction of having the right to destroy everything that does not (or does not seem) to line up with them.

The Star Wars saga told us over and over that power is not what it takes. The Jedi lost the Clone Wars; Vader was a lonely, bitter guy (not to mention Palpatine); Kylo had all the power his grandfather never had and it did him no good. Anakin, Han and Ben all were loved most by their women when they were at their weakest. And this brings me back to what I stated above: stories can be interpreted in different ways, but what about the message the author actually wanted to convey? If I am not getting it all wrong, it’s that compassion and not power is the key to everything good.

Episode VII and IX mirror one another, only VIII hints at a possible balance. Star Wars has a cyclical narrative; Anakin / Vader had his happiest moments and successes in his youth, while his grandson in his own youth hit rock bottom and committed his worst sins. If Kylo Ren’s destiny, as per Adam Driver’s words, is supposed to be the opposite of Darth Vader’s, how can The Rise of Skywalker really be the ultimate ending for him?

P.S. What do you think, could baby Yoda and Ben meet? Then Obi-Wan and Yoda would be together again in a new way. P.P.S I would also like to see the Force, for once. I’m sure it’s not black and white at all. How about a rainbow? (Does anyone have Rian Johnson’s e-mail…? 😊) P. P.P.S. On the other hand, if the next film starts with Rey being pregnant and not knowing how, I might be sick… ☹

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michaelyew · 4 years ago

Text

In an adaptation/rewrite of tlo I have some changes I'd like to make. Aside from the obvious. And I really like this book, it's my favourite from the main series, but it needs some updating!

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Firstly in order to fix The Last Olympian we need to fix some things in The Battle of The Labyrinth.

I want Beckendorf to have a bigger role in this book. He was introduced in the second book, but here is where he could really shine as a son of Hephaestus This whole quest is about his dad! He should be able to get more screen time in this story so that we can care about him on his own merits instead of as one of Percy's friends or the tragic love interest. For that, I think he should be a part of the questing trio.

"But what about Grover!"

What about Grover? He has his own reasons for going into the labyrinth, he doesn't need permission from Chiron to look for Pan. He's a smart boy with some brains, he can see the maze as a lead and go in after them on his own. This also creates the same conundrum of Threes that came up in the book before, which we'll come back to later. Percy can intrust Tyson's care to one of the other demigods set up to be his friend in TLO: Michael Yew to establish their friendship and trust, Lee Fletcher to give him some purpose besides dying, the Stolls to once again affirm that the Hermes cabin takes on responsibility for other campers, ect. When Tyson later sneaks off into the Labyrinth after Percy, this sets up a later conflict that establishes whatever choice more. This also fixes something else that's always bothered me, which is that it kind of felt that Percy only truly accepted Tyson once he showed how useful he was. Plus he always seemed to feel responsible for him. By having Percy take the time to make sure Tyson is being taken care of outside of his talents, that establishes more concretely how much Percy cares about him as a brother without painting him as a burden.

So Charlie goes on this quest and sticks it through to the forges. Grover in this version still goes off with Tyson for that sweet sweet character development, but the questing party stays at three. It's here that the parallels set in, because in being burned alive by the volcano and being yeeted to Calypso, Percy is not only saving Annabeth but also Charlie. Saving him from certain death by explosion and flame. It does have the unfortunate side effect of there being TWO incidents of Percabeth having emotional kisses in front of their friends, but we can fix this by having Charlie fight a Telkinhein or something it's fine. Beckendorf drops out of the main story from here to make way for Rachel but he still has one good scene of protecting camp at the end. Plus, I want him to be present when Amnabeth tells Hera she only cares about perfect families and I want him there to defend his dad.

So for those counting that makes three counts of narrative consistency stacked against Charlie's life (which makes a lot more sense than just killing him off because you needed a martyr). With this we go into The Last Olympian.

I wouldn't change much about the plot line from here on out. We have the setup of Charlie returning the favour to Percy by saving his life, we get some sweet last scenes of him being a demigod and a hero, the setup to TLO is bomb and it's fine. I'd like more scenes with Michael because if you're gonna set a character up to be front and center then kill him off you could at least give him more than 35 lines.

What I do want to make a point of here though is that Percy lives in BoTL. What happens to Beckendorf specifically from that moment doesn't actually matter so long as it makes a big enough impact on Selina to drive her to reach the conclusions that she does. He could live or die or be yeeted to Calypso, lose a limb or two, it doesn't matter so long as he's put down for the count for the rest of the book. Percy lived, and the rule of threes doesn't actually make an impact again outside of Bianca's death (because if it did someone should have died in Sea of Monsters but they didn't). So I like to think he lives, but I'd be more ok with him dying in this scenario than I was in canon.

However on to Selina, who still needs to die. And it's at this point that I will make people angry by saying that I think Charlie's impact on her is much more meaningful if they were best friends instead of dating. I want a scene in the earlier books where this is established so that we know that they are close. And I want them to be friends because the point of Silena's ark should be that she hurt her friends and she feels awful about putting them in danger and got them killed, not that she's changing herself for a man (or dying for one that's possibly still alive). I just think this would be much more powerful if romance wasn't the main emotion involved.

That being said I want her to be 50% gayer for Clarisse because we were given Patroclus and Achilles parallels with girls and by GD they will be gay. I will stand for nothing less. I want them to have a relationship that's established at the end of BoTL in the background and I want it officiated in TLO because if you're going to compare them to one of the great mythic queer relationships of antiquity then they WILL BE QUEER.

Again it would be neat if Michael lived because the alternative is that Percy killed his friend and then never talked about it again and it's never brought up again and it just exists as a thing everyone quietly knows until he snaps in Tartarus. Which I'm not saying that having that conversation instead wouldn't be cool, but the ending kiss is very iconic and I don't think that strong of a tone shift could work.

Now I want Ethan to live not because I'm bitter and not because almost every person of colour dies in the main series but for one very important reason. Through the entire series, every time we see him, Ethan never actually did anything wrong. He was forced to fight in the arena by Luke, he didn't directly hurt or kill anyone, in fact he's never actually aggressive in any of his later appearances. Yeah he joined Khronos, sure, but it's not like he had any other options. That was his tragedy. Ethan was a son of a minor goddess, a goddess usually seen as evil by other demigods to boot, who was neglected and mistreated by the place that was meant to keep him safe. He had to join Luke because the alternative was being killed or recruited anyway. And he didn't deserve to die for it, the price of his redemption was never that steep. It makes much more sense for Ethan to return to camp and have a hand in rebuilding it with his own hands and making amends for the minor gods with his own power. His fatal flaw was the desire for justice at any means, him being killed when he's so close to freedom and respect doesn't jive with that.

Additional notes:

- The romantic subplot between Annabeth and Luke was creepy and we didn't need it. He was a big brother figure to her, that's enough betrayal drama on its own.

- In general we need more canon ethnicities. In a TV adaptation this is easier obviously, but honestly we shouldn't have to assume things based on names or how little they're described. We should just get to know.

#hoo #pjo #percy jackson #percy jackson and the olympians #heroes of olympus #kiss my quiver #michael yew #charles beckendorf #clarisse la rue #silena beauregard #annabeth chase #grover underwood #travis stoll #conner stoll #tyson #pjo tyson

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twilightofthe · 4 years ago

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So...about that Obitine Anidala rant. Also, you said something about how Sidious and Obi-Wan are foils. I would love it if you elaborate. (Also, I love your blog.)

Awwwww thank you anon! I just be yelling on here!

*wheezes* okie doke! Tho I stress that this won’t exactly be a rant because I adore Obitine and Anidala and rant kinda implies aggression towards them, this is more of just a long-ass ramble because while I love them, I don’t always love the way canon portrays them in the narrative, particularly in relationship to each other, because I often do not feel that what the show is trying to push us to think about them is accurate to how they actually act and come across. Notably, the show attempts to draw comparisons to the two relationships that really don’t exist below surface level similarities. Again, these are my own personal opinions, and in fact, I welcome discussion! I truly do! Please politely debate me on this if you disagree!

(god dammit it got long again, so long I’ll actually put ur Sidious and Obi Wan as foils part in a separate post)

I’ll get to why exactly the show compares the relationships very strangely in a moment, but first we gotta explore the reason why it does this in the first place, which is that the Clone Wars show has decided to make Obi Wan and Anakin narrative foils to one another. Narrative foils, by the literary definition, are two characters that contrast one another. They don’t have to be the protagonist and the antagonist, these characters can be on the same side, basically the thing is that they have “opposite” personalities where if one character is hot, the other is cold, if one character chooses to go right, the other will go left. It’s usually used to show one character’s qualities as more favorable for the situation as opposed to anyone else’s.

TCW does this whenever they possibly can with Anakin and Obi Wan. I get its reasoning behind it. I do. The reasoning is that while Anakin is supposed to be a main character, he makes questionable decisions quite often and for the kiddies watching, those decisions must be seen as Bad even if the hero does it, so they have Obi Wan, the unquestionable good guy, encounter the exact same scenarios Anakin makes his questionable decisions in, and then has Obi Wan make the Right(TM) decision to teach the kids a valuable lesson. They turn Obi Wan into the voice of reason for the entire show, which turns basically almost everything Obi Wan and Anakin do into a constant competition in the narrative in a way the movies do not do (and I’ll get to the movies later). I’m not saying it’s necessarily a bad thing, making them foils, but it’s definitely more of a show-only thing and it does it quite, quite often.

So yeah, TCW likes to compare Obi Wan and Anakin to the point that sometimes they try and use Obi Wan to diminish Anakin’s genuine trauma and struggles by going “well why didn’t you do it like THIS?” and I think that writing parallel plotlines for the purpose of shaming/criticism is kinda ://////, but that’s another rant for another day that again, if y’all wanna hear about, lmk

Anyway, the need to compare them absolutely made its way into their romantic relationships as well, as they acknowledge the similarities in the show, and Filoni and the crew explicitly compare the two relationships in interviews.

Basically my problem with how they try and draw said parallels can be boiled down to one quote by Filoni that a cursory Google search could not find but I know exists so y’all can take my word or not, that went along the lines of “Obi Wan and Satine are like Anakin and Padmé but better because they know how to stay unattached and let each other go. They’re a success story.” I disagreed with this quote so much it inspired me to write a whole-ass fic about it (Mutuals update: yes, it is coming soon, Darth Maul is just himself and therefore an utter pain in the ass to do a POV on and is fighting me like the bitchass he is)

My thesis that I will be arguing today is that while TCW tried to create Obitine as an Anidala parallel, they’re really not similar in the way the writers think they are. Obitine is not a success story to Anidala, they’re a goddamn tragedy too; the real parallel to Anidala is that Obitine also ended in death and tears despite making all the “right” decisions instead of all the “wrong” ones, and that is what is sad about them.

Like, on the surface level? Yeah, the crew-intended parallels are there. A fancy politician and a Jedi get together after the Jedi is assigned as the politician’s bodyguard. The first time they see each other in over a decade the guy’s first words are basically “damn girl you’re still hot”, there is Conflict(TM) and the choice to try and be together or stay yearningly apart because they are Forbidden(TM) to be together, and ultimately a Sith Lord fucks them both over because he’s obsessed with the Jedi and uses Politician Lady to his advantage, finds and exploits a vulnerability of hers, destroys her life’s work, and then lets her die to make Jedi Man sad. The difference is all that one pair said “yeah we aren’t gonna break the rules to be together” and the other said “fuck it yeah we are, let’s do this”

But beneath all of that, they real similarities are different and not at all focused on by the narrative. Obi Wan and Anakin are extremely different people, as are Padmé and Satine, so their relationship dynamics together will not be the same. You want to try and compare Obi Wan and Anakin and then compare Satine and Padmé like the crew attempts to, and you can’t, they have the same job but not nearly the same life. Namely, the funny coincidence is that Obi Wan and Padmé are much more similar in personality, while Anakin and Satine are also much more similar in personality, so the first time they meet again, it’s both Anakin and Satine as the one who’s been pining for over a decade and the one more actively pursuing the relationship, while Obi Wan and Padmé who are more like “uh, hi, wow, you’re hot and this is a Problem because I have a job to do pls don’t look at me like that but also I will Cause Problems On Purpose and flirt with you anyway because I can’t help it”. I get the Corruption TCW ep with Sati and Pads was mostly intended just to help Satine pass the Bechdel test and also show how similar the two leading lady love interests are, but it was a genuinely creative episode that actually ended up showing how much Satine and Padmé compliment each other instead of mirroring each other, much like Obi Wan and Anakin do.

And, onto my next point, despite the character parallels being wrong, the parallels in the relationship are different too. Like I said, the parallel isn’t that Obi Wan and Satine aren’t attached like Anakin and Padmé are. The parallel is that Obitine is actively running from what that attachment means instead of embracing it like Anidala is. The show would argue that since they try to avoid it, that they are able to live without one another, means they aren’t attached like the Jedi define it, but I argue that they definitely still are attached to a degree because they cannot give each other up. They held torches for each other from a timerange of 15 YEARS. Yes I know they spent an entire year together at a young and emotionally volatile point in their lives, but I stand that NO ONE is that hung up on their ex for that long unless there is some serious emotions involved. Anakin was hung up on Padmé for ten years, and that was because Palpatine was constantly bolstering those affections and reminding him of Padmé. Obes and Sati both-- or at least Satine, the show always makes Obi Wan’s feelings for Satine in return much more vague --held on to their feelings for five years longer without the influence of a Sith Lord.

And the thing is, they know it. Obi Wan and Satine are both fully aware that they haven’t been able to shake each other off like they should and that that is a Problem, that’s why they’re both a mite venomous with each other beneath the flirting at first, they’re both extremely frustrated with themselves for not being able to get over this thing they have, and frustrated with the other for being there as an active temptation.

And yet, they still are attached to each other. They try to avoid it, they definitely try, and that’s what makes them different from Anidala, but they are definitely still attached. You can see it in Obi Wan’s actions in Voyage of Temptation when Merrik is threatening to blow the ship, the way he hesitates in attacking him because that would be “striking an unarmed man”. Obi Wan Kenobi does not prefer violence, no, but he has never hesitated to cut a bitch before if it’s for the good of the many. This is the man who stabbed someone with a fork and threatened to eat him just to maintain his cover as a dangerous criminal. This is the guy who had no problem killing Zam Wessel for information to protect Padmé. This is a pragmatist who prefers peaceful solutions, but he does not hesitate if he feels it is a justified offense. But this time, when an entire shipful of people is at risk, Obi Wan hesitates. Because he doesn’t want to upset Satine. Because he’s probably thinking on how she told him that if he had killed the last terrorist they encountered, she wouldn’t speak to him, how she had criticized every time he used violence to escape Death Watch before. He hesitates because he’s putting her happiness, just for a second, over the sake of duty. Do I think that if Anakin hadn’t shown up to save their moral compasses, Obi Wan would have eventually taken out Merrik? Absolutely; hell, I honestly think Satine might have done it.

But the matter was, Merrik could have pressed the kill switch any second of Obi Wan’s hesitation, and Obi Wan knew that, and was hesitating anyway.

I am calling this attachment solely because if the situation was reversed, if this was Anakin and Padmé in this situation, with Anakin not taking out a dangerous criminal because he doesn’t want to upset Padmé (lol ignoring the fact that Pads 1000% would have shot that bitch, and even if she didn’t, Anakin would because he is perfectly fine with hurting his loved ones’ feelings if he feels it’ll keep them safe), god, the narrative would have eaten Anakin alive.

No, I won’t take criticism. I know how the show handles the Anidala dynamic. It would have shown Obi Wan popping up to take out the baddie as him doing the right thing and saving the day, and then Anakin would have been shamed for letting his feelings for his wife get in the way of protecting a shipful of people. THAT would be the Vader foreshadowing, none of this “only a cold-blooded killer” shit, no way would they ever stick that label on Obi Wan.

So yeah, I’m going off of the fact that if that would have been classified as attachment for Anidala-- which, it would, then. it counts for Obitine.

And then Obi Wan and Satine continue to be hung up on each other for the rest of the eps they’re in, Satine saying in words multiple times how much she loves and cares about him and wishes things could be different, and Obi Wan performing it in actions, risking his own neck and political standing to help her even when she’s a fugitive, probably personally putting in to send his own grandpadawan to help her later. Right up to the time when Satine decides that she is going to call Obi Wan when she is deposed. Not the Senate. Not any powerful politician friends. Not even the Jedi Order or the Council as a whole. She calls and addresses her distress call to Obi Wan alone. And Obi Wan, as now revealed to us by TCW S7, defies Council orders and breaks a century old neutrality treaty to try and bust her, a convicted murderer in the eyes of the Republic and Mandalore, out. He didn’t even know Maul had her. Just knew she was in danger and came running to her aid. He risks starting a potential war to come save her. They acted so in love that Vizsla was able to guess from being around them for like five seconds, and was able to tell Maul exactly who he would need to bait Obi Wan.

That is where the attachment comes from. It’s the fact that Obi Wan and Satine tried so, so hard to give each other up and do the right thing, but when it came down to it, they couldn’t lose the other one so they put them first when logically they shouldn’t. And thus, Satine ended up dead.

Now I know most people will argue with me that actually Filoni means that since they didn’t stay together after the year on the run, THAT is what makes them able to give each other up, and also the fact that Obi Wan didn’t go dark side and murder everyone when Satine died.

But I still think that at least the murder front is a fairly low bar to cross, and anyway, that just because they could live without each other didn’t mean they weren’t still attached. Anakin and Padmé were apart for 10 years and then even after that, they were apart almost constantly during the war. Just because they could live apart or even past the other’s death didn’t mean they weren’t attached, as they both still had not let the other go mentally and also broke rules to try and ensure the other would not die, even if the rules said they should let it happen.

So yeah, that’s my big theory. We can’t compare Obitine with Anidala by saying Obitine was a success story, we compare them by acknowledging that both struggled with attachments and letting the other go, but Obitine at least tried to the bitter end to do the right thing while Anidala didn’t really bother, and both ended up with dead women and broken men regardless, and that is the true sad parallel to me.

#ohhhhh my god i really gotta learn how to shut up lol #thanks anon! told ya it was long!#ask #asks #when we were young #star-crossed lovers #our only ho #peace out #one (1) hot mess #queen of my heart #anon

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