#Classics Retellings

[burner-of-ships]

hot take but the more i read and the more i see classics nerds online get mad about classics adaptation authors who dare to have not read every single ancient text before putting pen to paper, the more i think we all need to realise that classicist does not necessarily equal good writer.

there are classicists who are good writers and there are those who know nothing AND write badly but i genuinely think there’s nothing wrong with someone who writes an entertaining book about ancient myth characters and has read the bits of the iliad or whatever that they find relevant but who hasn’t written a dissertation on it. i think someone is just cranky that they did write a dissertation on it and people read a book from a bookshop instead of that. because of course they did.

like why does it matter? hm? who decided that a story needs to be perfectly accurate anyway? is it not enough to be an enjoyable way to spend an afternoon? i mean honestly a book that is actually perfectly accurate to ancient greek myths would be filled with plot holes and contradictions anyway, because the myths often don’t fit together all that neatly.

i know hating on things is fun but reading is supposed to be fun too guys.

[dontdenymeshakespeare]

Mid Year Book Freakout Tag

[wordsmithic]

unpopular opinion but with the new tide of Greek mythology stories and retellings, Greek Cultural Sensitivity Readings are absolutely necessary. We are in 2024, with thousands of fics and retellings out there!! How is this not a thing yet?? There's vast improvement one can achieve by working professionally on their text with a Greek. I've seen it so many times!!

Also, duh, I'm offering the service BUT I want you to know that the situation with the inaccuracies of SERIOUS works is so dire that initially I didn't even do it for money. As a writer I just wanted to... fix things, to set a new standard for writers and the industry that sells us the most heavily Americanized pop-culture material and passes it as "authentic vibes of Greek mythology". (And of course there were writers who wanted to do right by their story and they had reached out to me. So kudos to them as well!)

Okay, but why does Cultural Sensitivity Reading make a vast difference and it's not just smoke and mirrors?

As a Greek, I am tired of well-meaning writers and authors butchering very basic elements of my culture. It's not their fault exactly, since they were raised in another culture with a different perspective. And nobody clued them in on how different Greek culture is from theirs, so writers sometimes assume that their culture is the default and they project that into ancient Greece. (Even published professionals like Madeline Miller have written "UK or US in antiquity" (with a very colonialist flavor) instead of writing "Ancient Greece". (Looking at you, Circe!)

Even writers who researched a lot before coming to me still had a lot of misinformation or wrong information in their text, easily verifiable by the average Greek. Again, not their fault. They can only access certain information, which does not include Greek scholarly work and scientific articles that DO offer valuable context.

Translation, accuracy, and meaning: If you ever wondered what a word means or how to pronounce it, here's your chance! There are Greeks like me who are knowledgeable and have a keen interest in antiquity and they will be able to read and compare ancient texts, and dive deeper into the work of Greek scholars regarding those texts.

If you want to create new words, you can do that as well! (It doesn't always work, but we can try. Greek is a really rich language and has a word about everything) If you use existing words, I can help you separate reality from fantasy in the context of your story.

(Do not assume we Greeks are ignorant of our heritage, or that we don't know how to research! Our archaeology sector is huge and archaeological museums are closer to most of us than your local Target is to you)

I guarantee there are things you never thought about Greece and the Mediterranean - from the ancient to the modern era. Sprinkling elements like phrases, types of interactions, customs, songs, instruments, dances, etc , into your text will make your text absolutely rich in culture.

Names matter!!! The genders of the names matter, diminutives matter (If I see one more "Perse" for Persephone I will claw my eyes out along with a few thousand Greeks), naming traditions matter!!! In many cases you should not even use a diminutive!!

You will be able to write about a foreign culture easily! Because of the continuity of Greek culture, you can even write a few more recent Greek elements to fill in the gaps. I can make sure they are not mismatched, and they will complement your ancient setting. I have observed a few things I didn't know we had since antiquity, but they make sense because our land has certain characteristics.

Non-Greek writers often miss the whole context of Greek culture! Do you know how Greek respect towards deities and parents looks like? What tones we use when we talk to our elders? When to use honorific plural - if your setting is more modernized?

Oh, and please let's avoid caricatures when describing Greeks?? (even fantasy Greeks) There can be heavy exotisation and odd descriptions of Greeks, as if we are another species. Even in published works. For many western writers it's difficult to catch, unfortunately.

The whole process is actually way easier than you think. You send me a text, I make notes and then we have some discussion on your vision.

It's always okay to seek guidance from the locals! You are not "guilty" when you admit you don't know! How can you know if you don't ask?? You can't imagine what relief and "πάλι καλά!!!" I read/see from other Greeks when I tell them another foreigner is using me for cultural sensitivity? Greeks want you to seek help and will NOT shame you for it!

(On the contrary, you have no idea how many eye-rolls Greeks do when they see a blatantly wrong thing in a story... Which has happened pretty often for many years now. Can we do better as an industry?? Please???)

You can send me a personal message to share your story, or ask what this whole cultural sensitivity thing is all about, or ask about what I have done so far and how I can help. But for the love of all that's good, don't let your story be another "generic greek myth retelling"! And don't let others sell you their generic greek myth retellings!!

[septemberkisses]

— The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller

[greekmythcomix]

You Are Odysseus

So

I’m a teacher of Classical Civilisation that has taught the Odyssey for over a decade and studied pretty much every myth and story with Odysseus in it.. I think

and I’m writing an Interactive Fiction (choose your own path) version of the Odyssey, inspired by the Homeric phrase “he turned his great heart this way and that”, where you are Odysseus, allowing you to follow his decisions or make your own

and it already has 400 sections to it - written to emulate modern translations of the Odyssey, including the literary features of simile, formula, epithet, and the rest - and 21 different ways to die, and quite a lot of period and theme-appropriate alternatives

(and if I get time, the option to be Telemachus or Penelope, although that might have to wait because it’s already a monster)

and I’ve tested what I’ve made so far on my pupils, other Classics teachers, and some of the leading (and best-read) Greek Mythology podcasters and YouTubers, all of whom have universally loved it (yay!)

(EDIT: Oops and I presented on it at the Classical Association conference last year)

I’m trying to finish it this summer, but need a bit of encouragement to do so

EDIT: and I forgot to say that ideally I’m planning on it being a beautiful BOOK with an old-fashioned cover and lots of ribbons to mark your place ❤️ (ex-bookseller ofc)

so, please let me know if you’d like to know more!

(EDIT: or sign up here go get notified directly when it’s ready: https://ljenkinsonbrown.wordpress.com/you-are-odysseus-signup/ )

[alatismeni-theitsa]

https://youtu.be/x_zIRxLp_-4?si=3SyLgW3McxByUSGo

What's your opinion on this video about the "endless reinvention of Greek mythology"?

I would call this an essential video to see if you follow this blog. Put it in the background and do something else, but please listen to it. It is absolutely worth it. There are many Greeks in the comments agreeing with the video, and for a good reason. Please read their insightful comments as well!

Feast your eyes at some:

Ironically, the voices and perspectives of Greeks would not have been heard if it wasn't for this... Anglophone woman 😂 This is not her fault, however. It's just how things are, unfortunately. I am sure she is self-aware enough to recognize this. In fact, she is one of the few Anglophone women who actually gives Greeks a voice and enables us to be heard more.

Still, this is not to minimize her great video. She goes into depth of the cultural appropriation of Greek culture by Northwest Europeans (And Americans, later) for centuries. She also discusses the harm that was done to Greece by that "love" of those Great Powers that looted Greece dry (even before Elgin). She finds faults at Americans and other Westerners considering themselves the straight inheritors of Greek culture, and she explains it with facts.

As Kate Alexandra says in the 5th part: "When these myths have a vague universality, it's very deliberate. The 19th century Classicists made sure that antiquity sat outside of History."

These people were the ones to write, as seen in the video, "Not even the names have remained the same" - meanwhile the Greek people and places, still having Greek names.... (I have seen records of villages, many many places and people still had Greek names you could find in antiquity) It really shows how surface-level of Greek language and Greek history was.

Another very important section is the one referring to how the study of the Classics by Western nations is done in such a way that uplifted ideals linked to white supremacy, colonization and genocide. (I promise I don't say this to be edgy. Just watch the video). That's why you will see me and other Greeks very suspicious of Western classicists. We know the white supremacist and imperialist, colonist lens through which their professors filter the material.

Greeks know that rhetoric very well, and we know how it has been used to harm us again and again. The German Nazis are just an example. Our ancestors hid our ancient artifacts so the conquerors wouldn't steal them like their predecessors did.

[magiefish]

This might just be a *me* thing, but I do find it kind of fascinating that almost every Feminist Greek Myth Retelling seems compelled to flatten Helen into a two-dimensional basic-bitch with no guilt or remorse for her actions despite the fact that self-loathing for her own beauty, a feeling of a lack of agency in the face of Aphrodite's whims and a complicated affection for and loyalty to both the Greeks and the Trojans are all major characteristics of hers in both The Odyssey and The Iliad. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the dynamics of modern feminism and patriarchy whatsoever.

[shasivyy]

Some of the main characters from my Frankenstein retelling.

{When darkness shines}

Adam. (Victor Frankenstein’s creature)

Dew. (An original character created by me for a big role in the retelling, which includes being the love interest of Adam.)

Victor will be the next to introduce 👀

[poppletonink]

LGBTQ+ Retellings

Most Ardently by Gabe Cole Novoa

The Princess Deception by Nell Stark

The Song Of Achilles by Madeline Miller

The Sleeper and The Spindle by Neil Gaiman

Self Made Boys by Anna-Marie McLemore

Cinderella Is Dead by Kalynn Bayron

The Princess and The Fangirl by Ashley Poston

Northranger by Rey Terciero

Epically Earnest by Molly Horan

Twelfth Grade Night by Molly Horton Booth and Stephanie Kate Strohm

Legendborn by Tracy Deonn

Peter Darling by Austin Chant

Mismatched by Anne Camlin

Girls Made Of Snow and Glass by Melissa Bashardoust

Escaping Mr. Rochester by L.L. McKinney

The Seafarer's Kiss by Julia Ember

Gwen and Art Are Not in Love by Lex Croucher

[nerdyqueerr]

The Ulysses Dies At Dawn research project thesis is COMPLETE. Lets fucking do this

[zenosanalytic]

Hottake, apparently but:

Myths are stories and they are meant to be recontextualized. The cultures which created these stories and which all y'all turn to as "primary sources" for them changed them all the fucking time. If you're going to treat a roman propagandist like fucking Ovid as a reliable source then so is Rick Riordan(who, quite honestly, has more respect for the material than Ovid ever did, and I never even READ the Percy Jackson books)

[cosmic-metanoia]

Hades as the "Villain"

~not my typical content but.....~

Hear me out.

WHAT IF....the reason why some Greek mythology retellings *incorrectly* write Hades as villainous is because he minimizes engagement with his toxic Olympian family and ACTUALLY sets boundaries with them?!

(tags are for exposure - some of them did a great job of Hades's portrayal!)

[fictionadventurer]

Listening to a podcast interview with the directors of Treasure Planet, and one of the most fascinating things is when they talk about how the '90s Disney animation climate was all about making these prestige animated films with stories that could have been done in live action (Hunchback, Pocahontas), and these guys fought to make films that could only be done (or at least be best done) with animation. Because it's kind of the inverse of their current philosophy of making everything live action even if it's a story that's better in animation. So anyway if the live-action Treasure Planet thing is really happening, it's like spitting in the face of this movie's intent.

[redstarjuly]

I was reading discourse on achilles yesterday and I'm still thinking about some people calling him a r*pist and others saying that other books they've read that are from a woman's perspective completely shifted the perception they have of TSOA's Achilles. And to me that makes little to no sense.

Here's what I come from: Achilles is a character from the Illiad, and the poem itself is pretty much fanfiction. I mean, the person and warrior that Achilles is based on probably existed, and it might have been called Achilles even, but i think we all agree that the rest is dubious.

Since the illiad is like the OG story, people tend to look at it as if it's canon and we'll go with that logic. You have the canon work and poets go off on their own versions of these characters writing tragedies, more epics, thesis, all sorts of stuff, and it goes on for centuries until we reach The song of Achilles and Percy Jackson and all the other 100s retellings coming out which are fanfiction of fanfiction.

And you're letting one fanfiction distort another fanfiction? It's bonkers to me because as someone who has to read the classics and grew up on fanfiction, I don't see that happening elsewhere. Between academics, if we're discussing a myth, we mention the different versions, and we can choose one to go on from, sure. But even so, I never saw someone sound so affected by different perspectives on the same character in class.

And if we're talking on the world of street fanfiction, I most definitely don't find people going "Oh this fanfiction of hermione betraying the order and marrying voldmort changed my perspective of Harry Potter's hermione" you know? -- if that sounds like a stupid example, it's because it is. It's just to show that my whole point is that it's insane to me to let a book ruin another book when the authors are creating different versions of the same characters, which basically turns them into different characters with the same names. Especially since you know, it's all made up. And this isn't real criticism to the people forming their opinions or the authors, respect to all of them.

But it’s a little maddening watching people roll into arguments to discuss what piece of fiction is more real and relevant when they're all in the same level of glorified AO3 works.

I hope this makes sense to someone else

[legacy0ficarus-official]

Villain song! What do you all think?

I’m going for a sinister villain. Everyone’s got a twist villain these days. It’s getting overdone, so I’m sticking with the classic cartoonishly-evil villain.

This is King Minos. He’s a proud and manipulative tyrant. He isn’t all that angry or anything. He’s a charismatic and goofy guy — which is part of what makes him so terrifying. He genuinely doesn’t care about anything or anyone besides himself. He sees no value on human life at all. Everyone and everything is a toy to him.

“Your boy has a good head on your shoulders. Let’s make sure it stays that way, hm? Get back to work.” ~ King Minos, Legacy of Icarus

[greekmythcomix]

How I teach the Iliad in highschool:

I’ve taught the Iliad for over a decade, I’m literally a teacher, and I can even spell ‘Iliad’, and yet my first instinct when reading someone’s opinions about it is not to drop a comment explaining what it is, who ‘wrote’ it, and what that person’s intention truly was.

Agh. <the state of Twitter>

The first thing I do when I am teaching the Iliad is talk about what we know, what we think we know, and what we don’t know about Homer:

We know -

- 0

We think we know -

- the name Homer is a person, possibly male, possibly blind, possibly from Ionia, c.8th/9th C BCE.

- composed the Iliad and Odyssey and Hymns

We don’t know -

- if ‘Homer’ was a real person or a word meaning singer/teller of these stories

- which poem came first

- whether the more historical-sounding events of these stories actually happened, though there is evidence for a similar, much shorter, siege at Troy.

And then I get out a timeline, with suggested dates for the ‘Trojan war’ and Iliad and Odyssey’s estimated composition date and point out the 500ish years between those dates. And then I ask my class to name an event that happened 500 years ago.

They normally can’t or they say ‘Camelot’, because my students are 13-15yo and I’ve sprung this on them. Then I point out the Spanish Armada and Qu. Elizabeth I and Shakespeare were around then. And then I ask how they know about these things, and we talk about historical record.

And how if you don’t have historical record to know the past, you’re relying on shared memory, and how that’s communicated through oral tradition, and how oral tradition can serve a second purpose of entertainment, and how entertainment needs exciting characteristics.

And we list the features of the epic poems of the Iliad and Odyssey: gods, monsters, heroes, massive wars, duels to the death, detailed descriptions of what armour everyone is wearing as they put it on. (Kind of like a Marvel movie in fact.)

And then we look at how long the poems are and think about how they might have been communicated: over several days, when people would have had time to listen, so at a long festival perhaps, when they’re not working. As a diversion.

And then I tell them my old and possibly a bit tortured simile of ‘The Pearl of Myth’:

(Here’s a video of The Pearl of Myth with me talking it through in a calming voice: https://youtu.be/YEqFIibMEyo?sub_confirmation=1

And after all that, I hand a student at the front a secret sentence written on a piece of paper, and ask them to whisper it to the person next to them, and for that person to whisper it to the next, and so on. You’ve all played that game.

And of course the sentence is always rather different at the end than it was at the start, especially if it had Proper nouns in it (which tend to come out mangled). And someone’s often purposely changed it, ‘to be funny’.

And we talk about how this is a very loose metaphor for how stories and memory can change over time, and even historical record if it’s not copied correctly (I used to sidebar them about how and why Boudicca used to be known as ‘Boadicea’ but they just know the former now, because Horrible Histories exists and is awesome)

And after all that, I remind them that what we’re about to read has been translated from Ancient Greek, which was not exactly the language it was first written down in, and now we’re reading it in English.

And that’s how my teenaged students know NOT TO TAKE THE ILIAD AS FACT.

(And then we read the Iliad)