#Brachycephalic Breeds

[daybreak96]

Ok so the only genuine thing I have against Natalie is her choice of dog breeds, like I hate that they bought another Frenchie, and look at him, poor lil guy couldn’t be more than 5 months and he has no muzzle to speak of and already has bad skin folds, looks more like a pug from the side than a normal healthy dog 😡😢

I just wish they could have gotten a healthier breed, especially as actors/anyone popular on social media getting a dog like this makes the breed more popular and the average person walking down the street doesn’t realise how unhealthy they are.

I’m an RVN and work in anaesthesia, these dogs literally aren’t used to such a good oxygen saturation as we give them under ga, after placing a et tube and ventilating as best we can, because they live there lives with such a shit ability to respire they aren’t used to having a clear airway and decent saturation! Like you don’t understand how depressing that is, we actually change what we consider as healthy parameters for a brachy (flat-faced) breed compared to a normal healthy dog because they have been so genetically fucked up!

[canisalbus]

would the dog royal families be like pugs because of all the inbreeding? would love to see your take on a dog form of the Hapsburgs lol

Probably nowhere near as extreme as modern pugs and other hyper exaggerated breeds today, but to some degree certainly.

[pangur-and-grim]

is there anything wrong with Tibetan Spaniels? they're so cute

[proteusolm]

I think pigs are one of the few animals that are less cute the smaller they are. It's like... we selectively breed small pig breeds for smaller skeletons but the same amount of meat? I find adult potbelly and kunekune pigs grotesque in form, with their eyes lost in a cease below a slab of forehead meat.

Like, the sweet face of a mangalitsa pig:

Vs the... I guess there's a face in there somewhere? Of a kunekune or potbelly:

[synthaphone]

why is it modeled like this. brachycephalic

[californiaquail]

the apparent existence of pugs in westeros raises some questions

[clanoffelidae]

Brachycephalic animal lovers this post is not for you I just don’t know how else to tag it and I mentioned these breeds, sorry. :( (Not in that I’m saying the animals deserve to be hated, absolutely not, but that I don’t like the breeds.)

I’ve literally never found brachycephaly cute in dogs and cats, or severe forms of it anyway. Mild doesn’t really bother me although it looks a bit odd, but then again mild brachycephalic animals usually don’t need much if any treatment for it because they’re overall okay!!!

But severely brachycephalic breeds??? Like pugs and persians??? I’ve literally NEVER found them cute or appealing and cannot see why people like them. And I don’t mean this in a ‘hohoho im so special and above their cute allure’ way, I mean that it literally does not activate my cute response and never has. All I can ever see is a severely deformed animal whose features I can’t fathom people finding so cute they insist on breeding them and making it worse. Like seriously, look at this!

No!!! That’s not cute!!! That’s disgusting and I feel sorry for the poor thing!!! I certainly don’t blame animals like this for their own issues and would never treat them with disdain for how they look, if anything I’d be trying to smother them because I feel so bad for them!!! But I don’t understand what the hell people see in that that makes them want to make more of them.

It’s like seeing a janus cat and going ‘yeah let’s make a breed out of that’ like no??? Maybe let’s don’t??? Just look at what you’ve done to the poor things!

The individual animal who just happened to be born like that isn’t to blame and is just as lovable as any other critter but maybe let’s not purposefully breed animals to be severely deformed for our own aesthetic desires???

Janus cat for those who have no idea what the hell I’m talking about with that lol. Condition is called diprosopus (craniofacial duplication)

Frank and Louie who beat the odds and lived to be 15 years old! What a tough old boy <3

And here’s Duo who is currently still alive and kicking! She’s about 3 years old right now I believe?

(Had her middle eye removed)

Like I am so impressed by and proud of these fighters for defying the odds and keeping strong despite the way they were born, but would I ever want to breed a cat like that on purpose?

NO

And I cannot understand why on earth people want to breed severely brachycephalic animals either. I just don’t get it.

[petcatandkitten]

Do cats with flat faces have breathing problems?

Because of their button noses, doll-like eyes, and squished cheeks, flat-faced cats have gained a lot of popularity recently. However, this cuteness comes at a cost. Cats with these flat features are referred to as "brachycephalic" in technical terms, and there are numerous health hazards associated with them.

Read on to learn about the dangers of brachycephalic cats and how excessive breeding has harmed these animals' health and wellbeing if you're thinking about getting one. Read More...

[great-and-small]

This is going to be an unpleasant post but I need to talk to y’all about heat stroke in dogs. I am an ER vet and I am seeing firsthand the death toll that this heat wave is taking on our pets. In the past two weeks, for every single weekend shift I have worked, we have had at least one DOA with a body temperature over 107 degrees. One of them had simply been on a 20 minute walk at 5pm. All of them were brachycephalic (short faced breeds like pugs and french bulldogs). Their owners were in shock that this could happen so quickly, and their grief lingers with me.

If you have a dog, and especially if you have a brachycephalic dog, you need to familiarize yourself with the signs of heat stroke. Do not take your dogs out in the heat of the day, be aware of the pavement temperature, and always have fresh water available for them. When I am outdoors with my dog I am checking on him constantly. This heat wave is extremely serious; I need you to keep yourself and your pets safe.

[felinefractious]

hi, you say you put links relating to health issues common with certain breeds, why do Persians, Exotic & British Shorthairs, other flat-faced breeds not have one? maybe I'm wrong but I thought they're pretty well known to have breathing and oral problems? /genq

There are different grades of brachycephaly and moderate - severe is generally where we see significant issues.

An appropriately bred British Shorthair (and similar breeds) shouldn’t present with a degree worse than mild… although unfortunately there are breeders who breed for extremes or overlook them in pursuit of a different desireable trait (looking at you dominant blue eye).

But the reason I don’t include a link to relevant cats is because I didn’t feel comfortable deciding where the line was for me to include a link.

This British Shorthair [source] has a nice muzzle length and well-balanced features. I wouldn’t say it’s much more severe than this Ragdoll [source].

Or what about breeds that aren’t brachycephalic per their standard, like the Devon Rex [source] but some breeders [source] are selecting for that extreme type anyways?

With the other breeds the issue is universally relevant, there is no room for me to make a decision on which individuals to mention it om and which deserve a pass.

Brachycephaly is horrible and those who breed these sickly cats are rotten but it’s an issue that can be worked out with ethical breeding. We can breed for longer muzzles and retain other breed traits.

The same can’t be said for the sebaceous cysts in Lykoi which are directly due to the abnormal formation of their skin responsible for the signature werewolf look. The same can’t be said for the Scottish Fold whose folded ears are exclusively caused by defective, weakened cartilage that effects their entire body not just the ears.

[kedreeva]

I saw tags just now that stated the user doesn't trust people who buys bred cats and dogs, with the implication being, I have to assume, that any (purebred) cat or dog that was bred is owned by someone that has done wrong specifically by sourcing their animal from a breeder (as opposed to a rescue).

Friend, this is not the case at all. Reasonably bred cats and dogs from pure breeds are not the problem. Mill breeders and "backyard" breeders that slap together any two animals to make a profit with no regard for the health of the animal are the problem. People not fixing their pets or not properly containing them during heats are the problem. People who perpetuate unhealthy mutations (like the Scottish fold, like brachycephalic animals) are the problem.

Responsible breeders producing reasonable numbers of healthy, well-bred animals from quality stock are not the ones filling shelters or putting strays on the streets. A person who researched their breeder and engaged in a responsible pet purchase of an ethical breed from an ethical breeder rather than an unknown animal from a mill, backyard breeder, or even rescue (which often are full of offloads from the other two) is not untrustworthy for this act.

In fact, they're doing it exactly right.

[ask-a-vetblr]

Is it true that purebred dogs need more medical attention than mixed breeds? Why?

vet-and-wild here.

Not necessarily. We know that certain breeds are prone to certain diseases, and that some breeds are generally just not very healthy (i.e. brachycephalic breeds), and some are frequently overbred with no regard for health/temperament (i.e. Frenchies, doodles, GSDs...really anything popular). There's some breeds that when I see for their first puppy visit I really really push for them to get pet insurance on principle. But if someone walked in and said they had a mix of those particular breeds I would still say the same thing.

There's kind of a misunderstanding about crossbreeding and "hybrid vigor", and this assumption that crossbreeding automatically makes the resulting puppies healthier. While genetic diversity is a good thing for a population, breeding two unhealthy dogs just produces more unhealthy dogs, regardless of breed or how much they've been crossbred. I wouldn't say that I see more sick purebreds than mixed breeds, or that one particular group seems to outlive the others.

Except really old chihuahuas with no teeth and a raging heart murmur. They outlive everyone. (jk jk)

[despazito]

You're not being a dick! The dog world can be very convoluted.

Most reputable breeders show their dogs, and honestly it's a red flag if your breeder doesn't do any kind of activities with their animals (doesn't necessarily have to be conformation showing, can be any work/sports or obedience eventing).

Usually most of their puppies will go to pet homes, and breeders occasionally pick puppies they really like for showing/breeding prospects or opt to co-own with somebody who will show the dog under the kennel's name. The amount of puppies per litter who have showing potential can depend on how successful the parents are in the ring and how sought after the bloodlines are, but even if they look right they have to have a good temperament to be handled in the ring, and it's not uncommon for pups to fail that training and just become pets. There really shouldn't be a drastic range in soundness between show and pet quality puppies within the same litter or kennel. Most pups do end up in pet homes, and all show dogs are also beloved pets that are often extremely spoiled and doted on!

All these puppies will receive the same care and upbringing show quality or not, although I will say there are instances of puppies being put to sleep for being born without signature breed traits such as ridgeless Rhodesian ridgebacks, but nowadays that's a fringe minority. A good breeder will want all their puppies going to good homes regardless of showdog potential where they will all hopefully have the best QOL.

As for being "better off" if they're closer to the breed standard, that really depends on the standard! Most standards are fine, but here's an illustration of an ideal English bulldog from the American EB club:

imo a dog bred away from this standard to have a longer snout and less bulkiness that has a lower likelihood of developing brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome, a condition which hinders QOL, would be 'better' than one bred closer to standard. This is why I'm cautious of the assumption that breeding to standard=breeding to health, because a handful of standards straight up encourage unhealthy traits..

That being said, someone not breeding to standard and not showing their dogs really should have solid reasoning and an explanation of their goals as a breeder. Because folks who simply "want to breed pets" with random dogs are almost always backyard breeders who breed unsound dogs with dubious temperaments. If they aren't producing working dogs or have extensive history with dogs and are working on, say, an outcross project or trying to solve a health issue within their breed that involves straying from the standard I would be weary of them (and an intensively researched outcross project is not the same as simply breeding doodles, the breeder should have a rigorous health testing scheme for the parents and choose the cross based on more than just how cute the puppies will look and the catchiness of the designer name. if it sounds like they're pulling something out of their ass to justify the breeding, i would leave).

in theory, getting a puppy from titled showdog parents should be an assurance of quality. it shows the parents are even tempered enough to perform in a show ring with many other intact dogs and be handled and touched all over by the judges without any aggression (very green flag if you're looking into serious breeds known for being temperamental). but not all clubs imo have strict enough health screening policies, so sadly a champion parent is not an automatic guarantee that your pup is free of inheritable disease, some of which can be sadly quite nasty. in the very worst cases a breeder can even ignore their dogs hereditary issues because the dog is very pretty and wins ribbons, and you can't always count on club authorities to pull poorly dogs from the ring. this is why i think there needs to be more veterinary involvement in conformation judging and non-optional screenings to enter based on common health issues seen in the breed. you'd be surprised how lax some health screening criteria can be even in the highest rungs of conformation.

in conclusion, it really depends on the breed and the breeder. the best thing you can do is your own research, get familiar with common health issues in your desired breed, and ask your prospective breeder if they've done the proper testing. ask ask ask. a good breeder should be proud of their kennel and bloodlines, if they're cagey run away!!

[eponymous-rose]

I can't find it now, which probably means it was months and months ago, but someone sent me an ask about considering adopting a cat but, as a dog person, not knowing much about adoption (e.g., whether shelter cats are good for first-time owners) and the day-to-day responsibilities of cat ownership. I can answer for my own experience, although I'm sure I'll be forgetting some important aspects!

Shelter vs Purebred:

I have a little 5-year-old shelter cat, a female domestic shorthair with a tuxedo coat! That's a big difference between cats and dogs - the vast, vast, VAST majority of cats you'll ever encounter are simply categorized as domestic shorthair/medium hair/longhair, with purebred cats being rare enough that they generally are limited to breeders - when I was an adoption counselor at a shelter, I only saw a couple of potentially purebred cats some through, and both were likely mixes. A lot of the time, cats are identified by their coat colors instead (e.g., calico, tabby, orange, tuxedo, colorpoint, dilute, etc.) with much made of the personality traits associated with those coats even though there's tragically no real science to back that up. Some coat colors are much more common with particular sexes of cats - orange cats are about 80/20 male/female, while calicos are >98% female - and that may contribute to some of the kitty stereotypes (e.g., orange cats are typically male, and neutered male cats tend to be quite calm and chill).

I'd heartily recommend shelter cats to anyone, including first-time owners. A lot of purebred cats sadly come with medical conditions (e.g., scottish folds often have significant pain due to connective tissue disorders, manx cats are prone to arthritis and spinal problems, maine coons and sphynx cats have relatively high rates of congenital heart disease, persians are brachycephalic and have breathing issues) or extra-high maintenance care requirements (e.g., sphynx cats must be bathed regularly because the lack of hair means the oils on their skin stick to any and all dirt, maine coons and ragdolls and norwegian forest cats require significant daily grooming to keep their long double coats from matting, brachycephalic cats require extra baths and grooming since they're generally unable to keep their own coats as clean, and breeds like bengals are so immensely high-energy that it's nearly a full-time job keeping up with their needs for enrichment and constant activity).

Shelter cats are almost all domestic shorthair/medium hair/longhair breeds, and tend to have the longest life expectancy of all kitties - although there are no guarantees (I sadly lost a 9-month-old kitten to a congenitally damaged heart) the lifespan numbers quoted lately for indoor-only cats tend to be around 15-25 years. And, of course, most places are overrun with stray cats - adopting from a shelter often comes with a free spay/neuter and vaccines, along with the satisfaction of having rescued a little critter that had a rough start before finding a forever home. You can visit shelters and get to know the kitties there - keep in mind that most cats are dramatically more fearful and shy in cages, and that you can often ask volunteers to point you to their favorites, especially if you're looking for an extra-chill cat as a first-time owner.

Consider adopting an adult cat! Kittens are adorable, but their energy levels are absolutely through the roof... as well as their destructive potential. Picture tiny whirlwinds with knives on their feet, the ability to jump 4-5 feet from a dead stop, zero sense of self-preservation, and the ability to keep sprinting for hours at random times of day and night. If you do get a kitten, consider adopting two - they tend to be less work since they'll keep each other entertained. Adult cats, however, tend to have more chill personalities and are more likely to settle into a routine quickly. My Clara is still pretty high-energy, but at 5 years old she's happy to have a shorter session of zoomies and intense play if it means she can then just curl up on a lap or in the sun to snooze and purr. Senior kitties are also wonderful - often cats don't have a very visible decline and remain relatively high-energy and chipper until very late in life, so it's not unusual that a 13-year-old cat will still act like a kitten and have many good years ahead, just a bit more chill.

Keep in mind that a cat is a long-term commitment. I was 7 years old when my parents brought two kittens home from the shelter - they lived another 18 years, until I was well into grad school.

Common Health Problems:

Cats that were once strays are very prone to two common diseases: FIV and FeLV. FIV (feline immundeficiency virus) essentially is a disorder of the immune system: these cats may be more prone to getting ill and may get more significantly ill when they do get sick. Luckily, FIV is far from a death sentence! These cats can live a normal quantity and quality of life with proactive health monitoring and regular trips to the vet (we're talking every 6 months instead of every year). FIV is contagious to other cats, but generally is only spread via deep bite wounds, so mixing of FIV+ and FIV- cats is possible given that you know that the cats are unlikely to get into a major fracas. FeLV (feline leukemia virus), sadly, has a worse prognosis - there's a lot of variability, but generally the best-case scenario is only a handful of years before the viral load is too high to avoid dangerous symptoms.

Another kitty disease that is sadly common among younger cats in particular is FIP (feline infectious peritonitis), which is a complication from a common kitty coronavirus that can emerge at any time and often manifests in very vague symptoms and is difficult to pin down. Until very, very recently, FIP was essentially considered to be 100% fatal within a couple of months and the recommendation was euthanasia. Now there are medications that can bring that survival rate past 90% - they're in the process of going through FDA approval, although there are groups online dedicated to getting you those medications through less official channels as needed. If anyone's familiar with Drawfee, Jacob and Julia's cat Olive was diagnosed with FIP at around 1 year old and was considered to be terminal - and, thanks to one of those online groups getting them the medication, is currently a happy and healthy 6-year-old kitty.

Nearly all shelter cats I've encountered have some level of URI (upper respiratory infection) - be prepared for a little extra sneezing and potentially having to give eyedrops the first couple weeks after getting home. URIs are SO CONTAGIOUS that it's almost impossible to keep them from spreading in a shelter setting. Also common is ringworm, although most shelters will isolate any contagious kittens and keep the infection localized.

Please spay and neuter your cats! They can have kittens incredibly young and incredibly frequently - unspayed female cats are also prone to certain cancers and unneutered male cats are prone to spraying (urinating on walls and other surfaces). The surgery is incredibly routine for both males and females (Clara had complications, but that just meant she had a few extra days of confinement) and generally the hardest part is keeping them from going after their stitches. Most shelters will provide spay/neuter services for free or on the cheap. They recover quickly and completely.

Cats also do incredibly well in a lot of different situations - deaf or half-deaf cats are quite common (nearly all blue-eyed cats with white coats are deaf) and just need some extra care to ensure they feel safe; the same goes for blind or one-eyed kitties, who can still happily play and navigate a space once they're familiar with it. Routine is key! Three-legged cats do so well that the saying is that cats are all born with a spare leg they don't actually need. If this is a recent condition, or if there are big changes in the cat's life (such as moving to a new home), just make sure to give them some extra time, support, and patience while they adjust. Amputation in cats can be really rough in the first couple of weeks, but soon enough they'll be sprinting around and jumping up on improbably high shelves.

Male cats are more prone than female cats to urinary blockages, which is one reason why I think it's important to actively clean the litter box yourself rather than using a robot. Changes in urinary output/pain while urinating/urinating outside the box can give you hints about a urinary blockage (a medical emergency in cats) or longer-term issues such as kidney disease, which can be managed with medication for quite some time as long as you know they're happening.

Cats are really good at hiding pain/illness, so it's important to be aware of signs of discomfort (sitting hunched with the neck extended can indicate difficulty breathing, whiskers extended stiffly from the face can indicate a grimace of pain, disruptions to routine such as avoiding beloved people or favorite spots, eating/drinking/litter box irregularity) and to ensure that you bring them to the vet on a regular basis to catch the stuff that might not be causing symptoms yet. Clara has a benign heart murmur and a little stiffness in one ventricle that requires her to visit a vet specialist every year or two to get an echocardiogram to check for any progression into heart disease (one in seven cats wind up with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, which has a long median survival with presymptomatic treatment) - if those symptoms are ever present, we get her on medication early and it's unlikely to influence her lifespan for quite some time, whereas unmonitored and untreated, the first symptom would likely be sudden death. Knowing about this in advance also means that she has recommendations in her chart if she ever needs anesthesia for a different procedure. Having a regularly updated baseline at the vet means your cat is that much more likely to live a long, happy, healthy life.

The Day-to-Day:

Caring for cats is extremely fun, and the key is routine! Cats LOVE routine and will happily follow you around through your day-to-day. Clara is fed with an auto-feeder, which means she doesn't tend to pester me too much about food (and which means I can monitor how much she's eating and make adjustments as needed). She's prone to stress-induced stomach upset (aren't we all!) so she gets prescription food and some extra wet food with probiotics if I know something stressful is coming up soon. The auto-feeder dispenses food multiple times during the day, so she can't gorge herself and get sick.

For grooming, Clara does a pretty great job on her own, so I just have to brush her occasionally and every few weeks I will trim her claws. Do not declaw a cat! It's an amputation that is illegal in many states/countries and frequently results in chronic pain and behavioral problems such as an aversion to certain textures (a Major Problem if that texture includes litter...). If you can't trim a cat's claws on your own, try doing one or two at a time while they're sleeping - unlike with dogs, the quick is super visible on a cat's claws, so it's tough to mess up too badly. If all else fails, vets will trim claws for you, or can provide you with glue-on covers for the claws. I also brush Clara's teeth - you can get soft little toothbrushes and tasty-to-cats toothpaste, and even just them gnawing on the toothbrush can provide some benefit. Regular vet visits are also important to monitor any tooth decay that may occur. Cats can do well even with no teeth at all (the teeth are generally just for tearing pieces of prey, not chewing), but keeping those teeth healthy while they've got 'em is important, if only to avoid general anesthesia for a cleaning!

Most cats do very well without baths - so far, Clara has only needed a few little spot-cleans after minor accidents. Bathing is extremely stressful for most cats, so if necessary, I'd check out guides online to help reduce the stress levels. Many cats gradually lose the ability to keep themselves clean, so it's worth looking into, but don't expect to have to wash a cat as often as you would a dog by any means. (Unless you have a sphynx cat, of course...)

To help with scratching, provide scratchers for cats and keep them near the things you don't want the cat to scratch, as attractive alternatives (you can entice them with some catnip sprinkled on the scratchers!) - it's important to have both horizontal and vertical scratchers, since they exercise different muscles. Be aware, though, that bringing a cat into the home means that some of your furniture may be at risk. You can absolutely minimize the risk of damage, but I'd say you can almost never get rid of that risk completely.

Play is super important! I play with Clara throughout the day, but I also set aside some time every single evening to run around with her and really get her playing hard for a while (after which I clean her box, replace her water dishes, and go to bed - the importance of routine!). Cats aren't endurance hunters, but they require very little rest between bursts of energy, so hanging around for a bit with a toy even after you think they may be done is super valuable. Keep in mind that cats can get into life-threatening danger if they eat pieces of toys (strings, feathers, etc.) so it can be good to have some safe toys out all the time (e.g., foam balls) while the more dangerous ones (strings, feathers, etc.) are locked away when you're not actively playing.

Daily maintenance is pretty easy. I clean Clara's litter box at least once per day (which just involves scooping the contents into a bag that I then throw into the trash bin outside - less than 2 minutes/day) and do a deeper clean every week or two where I empty out all the litter and quickly scrub the box itself. Cats are lousy at remembering to drink, so I have three water bowls around the house - these get washed and replaced with fresh water every evening. Fountains are great for some cats (Clara had no interest) - some cats are obsessed with running water. Keeping water away from food can also help encourage cats to drink more. Apart from that, it's mostly just refilling the auto-feeder, attempting to tempt her with wet food (she's not a fan), and giving the occasional treat.

She also gets a monthly flea/tick preventative, which is just a couple drops of liquid that I apply at the base of her neck (usually while she's sleeping). She's an indoor-only cat, but bugs get inside and can transmit all sorts of bad stuff. Be warned that you should NEVER use a dog flea preventative on a cat - the dosage can be so high that it can cause a lot of harm. Make sure you have a correct dosage - ask your vet for more info.

And that's about it! In return for that minor maintenance, I get a silly little fluffy friend who follows me around and makes me laugh all day every day. She's gone from a really skittish little scaredy-cat to... well, still a skittish little scaredy-cat around most people, but around me she's affectionate and constantly looking for cuddles.

I hope this is in some way useful! I think a lot of people who don't consider themselves cat people would really enjoy having a cat - and even if you decide it's not for you, I hope you can appreciate and enjoy the other cats in your life!

[hypersaw]

We have to end the reign of brachycephalic breed designs btw