#Achilles x Deidamia

[dilfaeneas]

Achilles and his babyyy

[babyrdie]

I wonder if Achilles ever thought "damn, I could be married to a pretty lady, taking care of our son, watching this child play with Patroclus and helping my father with the kingdom, but instead I'm here camping for what seems like endless years while knowing I'll never see the pretty lady's face, nor our son's, nor my father's again. The only positive side is that at least Patroclus can ensure the well-being of my family after I die, I'm sure he'll be a good influence on Phyrrus" and then...

[ellilyre]

(inspired by a video I saw on Instagram the other day)

Achilles and Deidamia laying in bed together

Deidamia : Babe, can you take my clothes off?

Achilles : Mh not now

Deidamia : Come on

Achilles: No, I don't want to do that

Deidamia : I want you to take my clothes off !

Achilles: No !

Deidamia : Achilles !

Achilles: Alright! It's unfair...

Achilles gets up, revealing he's wearing Deidamia's peplos

Achilles: I never complain when you wear my clothes...

[ismaeldrawsthings]

I'm lowkey at the verge of having an artist's block but I tried to draw Deidamia and Achilles today testing a brush I realized I really fucking hate so there's that.

Anyway "The girl she fell in love with wasn't a girl at all!!" The straight annoying version of "the guy she was interested in wasn't a guy at all!"

[sarafangirlart]

Ok so, there is this interesting part of the Achilleid where Zeus and Hera’s relationship is compared to Achilles and Deidamia

When I first heard of it I thought it was funny. Then I read the poem a bit more and I’m a li disturbed and confused.

So tldr Achilles disguised himself as a woman to draft dodge and he stays with Deidamia’s family and falls in love with her, at first it’s cute, Achilles teaches her music while she teaches him weaving and other feminine things. She realizes he’s in love with her but is too shy to reciprocate those feelings. Over time Achilles couldn’t take hiding his manhood anymore and… r*ped Deidamia.

Yeah…

The implication that Hera and Zeus grew up together is pretty interesting, there are multiple sources about both of them escaping their father but not much on them actually growing up together. Hera being shy about having a relationship with her brother is also interesting bc it reminds me of how, in one version of the cuckoo story, Hera brought up Rhea as a reason why she can’t be with him. It’s this whole thing that Hera and Zeus had a secret relationship hidden from their parents.

This also kinda implies a bit of… dubious consent (to put it mildly) in how Zeus got Hera to marry him. Ironically the cuckoo story doesn’t technically imply assault tho I’m surprised this part of the Achilleid isn’t brought up more.

Now this next part is more of a crack theory so don’t take it too seriously.

So you know how Thetis disguised Achilles as a girl to protect him? There is this story that Dionysus was disguised as a girl to avoid Hera’s wrath:

There is also this amusing parallel between Kronos and Hera (screenshot from @deathlessathanasia ):

With both being scared of by the Kouretes.

There are also some sources that state that Kronos spared his daughters and lets Rhea raise them, so what if… (and again this is a crack theory) Rhea disguised Zeus as a girl in order to protect him from Kronos?

[nymphachilles]

Headcanons of mine or my Au idk yet😍 (Hades Game x Iliad and a bit of tsoa)

this is stupid ik...and probably terrible😭 BUT PLS READ ANYWAYS

1.Achilles was a total bitch ass in life and we all know it, but what if Thetis tried to save his son ass one last time, she told Zeus to give her son another chance in the afterlife and Zeus tells Hades to make Achilles train his son, Zagreus (refering to Hades game). I can just imagine Hades, leterally giving Zag off to Achilles, that has a weakness for kids but he is not good with them, so he starts panicking, but tries to teach him a couple of things, how to behave and not do his same mistakes, since the regret he feels. Also when he and Patroclus meet again in the underworld, Patroclus sees Achilles and could tell he changed, that he was a bit calmer, even tho he still had some beef in him.

2. I thought this at 4 am so if its weird i was feeling freaky💞..But, i feel like Hades, when Achilles firstly arrived at the House of Hades, not only was made Hades royal guard, but Hades probably mistook him for Persephone at least from behind..I though this bc of my design of Achilles, i wanted to make sure to keep that devine look of his, so i find it funny that Hades mistakes him for his wife since he misses her a lot..

3. Antilochus and Deidamia were both so gay for Achilles. (Pat did not wanna share with Antolochus) [Anti had a lil crush on Pat too]

4. Hades got drunk and told Achilles to put Persephone's clothes (Still weird thoughts of 2 am, was feeling delulu)

5. Apollo for pure fun would curse Achilles to be a girl and fail bc Achilles was already in disguaise once, he loves dresses and feeling pretty.

6. Achilles and Patroclus bullied whole troy and Greek camp, the only ones that saved themselves were Briseis and Antilochus.

7. Since Polygamy was a thing, all the women Achilles, in the iliad, like Penthesilea (i hope i wrote her name correctly), fell in love with, surely pegged him. He is a bottom every situation, no matter the gender. Deidamia pegs him def..

Ok done for now🙏 sorry😰

[dhampiravidi]

dissecting Suits (Mike x Harvey)

OK, what if the whole show is from Harvey's POV?

Consider it (aside from the scenes he obviously would know nothing about). It starts with Jessica running the firm. She (his mentor/adopted mom/weirdly teasing bestie) is powerful & does what she wants (so he emulates her). When she, then Mike, leaves, the show's tone becomes more grim. Suddenly, every other episode ends with Harvey having a sad drink. Louis (as well as Harvey) goes from rebellious & rude to kind & mature as the show continues. Additionally, the women in the firm go from competent & smart to flawed &...just generally making social/occupational mistakes; this isn't Harvey thinking they're stupid because he has healthier platonic relationships with women than with men--it means HE'S REALIZING HE'S IN LOVE WITH MIKE.

This is evident as Mike himself goes from fairly easygoing to naive to self-sacrificing to a decent lawyer. In other words, he emulates Harvey, which earns Mike Harvey's respect. We all see the interactions between the two of them, many of which mimic the traditional heterosexual banter between a male lead & their female love interest. It's made clear through Donna & Scottie that Harvey's attracted to that shit, so once he finally reconciles his past trauma (related to what made him ultimately deny himself a healthy romance), he's able to accept his bisexuality & that he loves Mike Ross. However, at this point, Mike is gone & married, living the kind of life that Harvey always wanted (not in that Mike is rich, but that he feels successful & is in love). So Harvey takes what he can get with Donna, his last decent love interest (he might also do this because he feels guilty about stringing her along for the past 12 years).

I haven't seen the last episode yet, but I know what will happen. It'll have some happy scene at Harvey & Donna's wedding where Mike (yeah & Rachel) are there. Harvey's happy because the guy he loves who left, came back, if only for a little while. & gods know how bad his abandonment issues are (me too).

Also: Mike is the Patroclus to Harvey's Achilles, Donna's Briseis & Rachel's Deidamia. Just sayin'. (Or fuck, maybe Harvey's Odysseus to Donna's Penelope.)

Another also: that "I've only had this dog for five seconds" is basically Marvey, but change to "I've only had this assistant for 2 days & I'd totally fuck him I mean I'm in love with him I mean I'd do time for him"

[lions-and-men-musical]

WIP Wednesday! Idk if I’m gonna finish this one, but it’s Deidamia, Pyrrha, and Patroklos!

[sebacielenthusiast]

the song of achilles be like:

ACHILLES: Look at that gorgeous person in the mirror in front of us!

DEIDAMIA: Oh my, thank you achilles.

ACHILLES: Move bitch, i was clearly not talking about you. I told you to look, patroclus! <3

[pearl-div3r]

Here is the TSoA x JatCCH AU so far!

Patroclus = Jack (something about them being orphans and capable of following their lovers anywhere)

Achilles = Acacia (Parallel's between Acacia's parents sending her to Andalusia and Thetis sending Achilles to Skyros. Also them being seen as the greater one and being hot-tempered)

Joe = Deidameia (listen, I had no other idea except the "mean towards the mcs because they also love the love interests and are low-key NOT alright" trope they share... Just be happy with the fact that I'll draw her as the phantom train keeper.)

Madeleine = Chiron. (I don't even need to explain myself.)

George Melièse = Odysseus (silly little tricks and how much they love love their wives.)

If you guys have any idea for Anna, Luna, Arthur or any others please let me know!!!

[pelideswhore]

If the apple of discord was thrown down at the wedding feast of Peleus and Thetis, how did Achilles, their son, fight in the Trojan war? The timeline does not make sense to me unless you just chalk that up to the timing of the Eternal, Deathless Gods but mortals are involved. Like Paris is presumably asked right after the wedding to judge who gets the apple then he picks Aphrodite who has promised him the most beautiful woman. Does she like wait to find out who that is and that causes the delay? The story seems to go that she promises Helen, they kidnap Helen and then the war begins so like that’s a year tops in my mind but how would that give Achilles time to become the teenager he is in the war? Please help. If there is a definitive answer excellent but I also just want theories.

i really love love love this question, cus i’ve thought about it a lot, especially because i consider Paris and Achilles to be around the same age, which, as you said, would make no sense.

sadly, i don’t have a definitive answer, but i do have a theory. it’s quite long though so buckle up.

As you probably know, Aphrodite, Hera and Athena asked Zeus to solve the issue before resorting to Paris. Zeus couldn’t answer and by the timeline of the Gods, many mortal years had passed so Paris would have been born, sent away from the palace and had enough time to grow up at this point. Ares suggests him, the goddesses ask and Paris gets bribed. But he doesn’t take Helen straight away, because he’s still a goatherd at this point.

Before I finish with that, let’s get back to Achilles. One would probably assume that within the first year of Thetis’ and Peleus’ marriage, he was already born, but that’s actually not true. The couple had six sons before Achilles, but they all passed away somehow (which, i like to think, is the reason Thetis is so protective). That means, even if they all died on Day 1 of their life and Thetis conceived the very same day: 9 months x 6 = 54 months aka. 4,5 years. That’s at least 4 and a half years before Achilles was born, but I think I can safely assume it took a little longer. Let’s say 6 years (which btw is still unrealistic and would probably be horrible for Thetis’ health but I digress).

So now, Achilles is born, stuff happens: Achilles meets Phoenix and Patroclus, he gets sent to Chiron, and eventually Scyros etc. Let’s say he’s 17 when that happens. Still a teen, but old enough to get Deidamia pregnant. Realistically, Thetis would only send him away when the threat of the war is imminent, so Helen’s kidnapping happens when Achilles is 17. I tend to say Helen was around 24, Paris was maybe 21. I believe however that the Judgement of Paris happened a couple years before.

Because, consider, Paris picks Aphrodite as a goatherd, but he kidnaps Helen as a prince. So somewhere in between, Cassandra must've found him and brought him back. He then had to get used to royal life, but, more importantly, all the ships had to be ready to go to Sparta. It could've happened in a couple of days, but a couple of years isn't unrealistic either, and it fits the timeline better.

It's a bit all over the place, so here's summary:

0 years: Peleus' and Thetis' wedding, Golden Apple incident (Paris/Achilles not born)

2 years: Paris is born and abandoned.

6 years: Achilles is born.

19 years: The Judgement of Paris happens, Paris is still a goatherd.

23 years: Paris kidnaps Helen, start of the war, Achilles is aged 17

The only time ‘divine timing’ really plays a role is between the wedding the Judgement of Paris. In divine timing 19 years is nothing, just enough time for Zeus and Ares to get involved. Paris would’ve probably already held one or two bullfights at the age of 17 when he is chosen to judge between the goddesses and from then on everything runs pretty smoothly, bearing in mind the 4 years between Aphrodite promising Helen to him and Paris actually kidnapping Helen.

sorry it took so long to post this, had to get my thoughts in check then type it up :D

[dilfaeneas]

Patroclus, Achillies and Deidamia redesign after some Pinterest searching

[babyrdie]

Sorry but your Deidameia hc post just made me think about them like this

Achilles: Why are you so mad? If I were a girl, things would be more difficult! Isn't it good that I'm a guy? Deidameia: YOU are the difficult thing! Achilles: ???????

Oh yeah I like to think of them in my Headcanonverse as a very confused couple lol

Achilles is constantly confused by Deidamia's behavior because he's just horrible at understanding people and unfortunately his people translator (Patroclus) isn't with him. Thetis visits him on Skyros, but Thetis understands people even worse than he does. And meanwhile, Deidamia is so confused by Achilles' existence that she doesn't know if she wants to give him a tender hug or squeeze him so hard that he explodes.

They flirted like:

Achilles: Your hands are so skillful, no one weaves like you! Your work is magnificent, such delicacy and dedication.

Deidamia: Haha thank you, Phyrra! And you are so pretty. Your hair is so beautiful, your cheeks are so soft. The most beautiful girl, really.

Achilles (not getting the signals): Haha my princess, you flatter me! This is Helen!

Deidamia: The second most beautiful girl, then!

Achilles: My princess, don't be silly. That's clearly you!

I also like to imagine that Deidamia would say something like "he is like his father" about Neoptolemus and this could vary between "he is like his father" (compliment) and "you are like your father" (frustration). Like, yeah, my kid is beautiful. I'm beautiful, the kid's dad is beautiful! Look how agile he is like his father! But at the same time damn, he's obsessed with these little wooden soldiers and talks about the Trojan War with excitement in his eyes. Nooooo why does he have to be like his father??? She tried her best not to tell Neoptolemus directly that he reminds her of Achilles because she didn't want to give the boy any ideas, but her plan didn't work.

[wordsmithic]

Hi, sorry if this comes out as a ramble, but your Troy ask made me rewatch the movie (for the umpteenth time, lol), and it brought a lot of old feelings back, both good and bad. The good is how much I adored the Iliad as a child and that's something that still thrives today—since I was a kid, I loved Greek mythology in general, partly because I'm Palestinian/a fellow Eastern Mediterranean, so there is a lot of overlap in our histories, cultures, customs and myths, but the Iliad has always been a favorite. Hektor is my favorite character (and I love him and Andromache), but I also have an immense soft spot for Briseis... and now to get to the bad, rewatching Troy reminded me how a lot of people erase her and her role—and her romance—to Achilles in modern retellings. Now, I'm not going to argue which Achilles ship is the best (especially because that man is a hoe, if we're being honest), I don't care. My problem is the modern erasure of Briseis and the other women in Achilles's life that are romantically entangled with him being reduced to, "He's gay, actually." It reads biphobic if you believe him queer (Patroclus too, who had many named women concubines/slaves), first off, misogynist second. He has a son with his foster "sister," Deidamia, and in some versions even married. In the Iliad especially, Patroclus tells Briseis Achilles will marry her and Achilles himself refers to her as his wife/bride, stopping a whole war when she's taken, and she's even allowed to aid in Patroclus's funeral rights. In some versions, Achilles falls for Polyxena, and tries to make peace with Troy so he can marry her. In the afterlife, Achilles chooses Helen as his wife for some reason. Just... all these women, with complex situations and feelings, are all reduced or erased in modern tellings (and usually for a man/Patroclus), and it makes me want to scream. People use the excuse of, "We don't like the romantic situation they're in," but then claim to "better" it by... erasing or reducing these women and their complex roles and feelings from the story overall? Brieseis, for example, mutually loved Achilles and saw him as a husband... he also killed her first husband and brothers, and you can argue part of her love is out of the need for survival. Yet, she greatly mourned him when he was killed, too. And if exploring this complexity is still not your yum, what about Polyxena? Wouldn't she fit the girlboss archetype of using Achilles' affections to gain his trust, before stabbing him in the back (literally)? Or Deidamia, who's young and left at home, bereft of her husband and son? Heck, try and fill in the gaps how Achilles x Hellen happened, if you must. All these women have an important role in the story, and to Achilles, that could be explored—but people don't because they dismiss what's already there or don't know anything about The Iliad outside modern retellings (mainly The Song of Achilles). So, we get people claiming things that are untrue ("Achilles and Patroclus are exclusively gay!"... in some myths, they're actually relatives/distant cousins, fun fact 😭), and acting like they fixed something by "adding" onto "flat female characters" in a way that reads inauthentic and ignorant to the source material. I get wanting to prop up one's chosen ship, it's just the hypocrisy of promising to be more progressive in one area, but diminishing the progressiveness of another, that kills me. Anyway! Sorry for the rant, I just have a lot of feelings I wanted to share because of the movie and I know you've talked about all this before—it's just something hard to discuss on the internet without people coming down your throat 🥲. Anyhow, justice for Briseis, is my rallying cry, I love her so much, queen made a whole war stop for her and managed to escape from Agamemnon unscathed. Queen who launched a thousand ships to my heart 🫶🏻.

I'm glad you re-watched it! It's a beloved of many Greeks since the movie is quite epic and makes you understand some of the original's glory. Hector, Andromache and Briseis are some of my fave characters in the movie, and it made me also look out for those characters when they appear in the text.

Btw, I would love to know a Palestinian's pov on our shared traditions and myths, how do you guys learn the Greek myths, what parts of them have had perhaps an affect on your heritage and since when, etc! 😍

Briseis' situation is complicated one because many people won't catch the nuance of her living in a patriarchal society as a war captive and thus developing a strange co-dependence to her captors. In addition, the Homeric Epics are a work changed by time in the Greek society, as people added and altered stuff, so many storylines have been affected by other layers of patriarchal societies. So of course the notion of "slave girl mourning her captor's friend" would seem natural, because they probably don't consider a slave woman's POV. Or perhaps she was in the mourning because she had to be there as a woman "belonging" to the Greeks, and the text does not mention it explicitly because it a given for the era. (I don't recall the whole relevant text sorry)

I am not sure if the average author - judging by what is published in the Anglophone market - can handle the complexity of Briseis and other women in the Trojan war. For Briseis one could go for a romance there but they'd have to depict all of her psychosynthesis properly, so it doesn't come off as "Achilles killed my family but he is hot so I love him". To be fair, it is a challenging task but I am still sad that I haven't heard retellings that do this well. Such a retelling done well would be chef's kiss!

As you said, unfortunately, the writers for now focus on the couple Achilles x Patroclus which, ok, let's accept it since it's a ship and there is some background to it (although those guys are most likely 1) cousins 2) very close to each other like brethren in a way westerners misinterpret). I've enjoyed Song of Achilles and I am surely not against such works, but you are right that the female heroines are reduced to flat characters. A fandom full of women manages to be misogynistic - again. We shouldn't be surprised because misogynistic influences are very strong in our societies still, although many don't see it 😕

[yannisdesk]

I am simultaneously reading The Iliad and The Song of Achilles. It is quite a wild trip, though I am thoroughly enjoying both; but, I want to say something...

I feel like a lot the debate surrounding TSoA is the result of people misunderstanding it's intentions.

I would understand some of the opinions towards TSoA in regards to Iliad accuracy if Madeline Miller did the thing that a lot of Greek Mythology retelling/reworking authors did back in the day, and pretended as if her version of the story was more "accurate" or the "true" version of the myth. But (as far as I can tell) that isn't the case. She's pretty upfront about the fact that this is just another version of Achilles' story using her creative license as an author to create a different take on the narrative using the knowledge she obtained while pursuing her classics degree.

I absolutely do think it's a problem when members of the TSoA fandom try to claim that is the end-all-be-all of Achilles' story, because it isn't. For example, TSoA portrays Achilles as being monogamous-leaning and pretty straightforwardly homosexual (using modern terms here for convenience, I know this is not how Ancient Greeks actually thought about sexuality.) While in mythology, Achilles is more along the lines of bisexual and non-monogamous. Though, the nature of mythology, especially Greek Mythology, is that there is no absolute canon and everything is up for interpretation, so again, that doesn't make TSoA bad by default.

I tend to look at TSoA primarily as a love story before anything else. Honestly, it's a love story about Achilles x Patroclus before it's even an Iliad retelling, half of the book takes place before the war even starts. The tropes and logic of romance novels are going to be present over others that would be expected of an Iliad narrative. I've seen a lot of criticism pointed towards TSoA because it focuses "too much" on Patrochilles and not enough on other characters, but that should be expected, because it's ultimately about the love shared between Achilles and Patroclus. It's kind of like the difference between reading a romance that takes place during medieval Europe, and reading A Song of Ice & Fire. War may happen in the romance, and ASOIAF may have elements of romance in it, but at the end of the day, you're reading them for very different reasons.

Now one thing that can and should be criticized is its treatment of female characters. Thetis and Deidamia are done so fucking dirty and its honestly infuriating. I hear Circe is done better in this regard and I hope so.

[johaerys-writes]

About that post of yours about people getting upset about Patroclus and Achilles being seen romantically, I've seen every single thing that made me so "wtf?"

I've seen them use the justification that they're cousins, from some sources. This doesn't make sense bc cousins getting along in Ancient Greece wasn't all that fuss, it's not like they were brothers! And they're cousins once removed…Orestes and Hermione are first cousins and no one finds it strange!

I've seen people use the justification that Achilles is married (Deidamia). Firstly, it depends on the source, secondly…he still has Briseis? There are sources that there are Briseis and OTHER characters (e.g. Polixena). Even in the sources where he's married, that doesn't stop him from doing anything. Not only Achilles but other characters! Agamemnon has been married for years and had Chryseis and Cassandra. Odysseus is married and his lovers vary with sources. Even before Helen was kidnapped, Menelaus already had a child with another woman. "Ah, but he would still prefer Deidamia, just as Odysseus and Menelaus still preferred Penelope and Helen" well, Agamemnon explicitly states that he prefers Chryseis, and Jason preferred Creusa over Medea…maybe we can assume that different characters are different characters!

I've seen people use the justification that both he and Patroclus had slaves… which, again, doesn't change anything. Again, married men had slaves, I don't know why we're pretending otherwise. Having a slave does not prevent having other relationships, after all, not even a legitimate wife prevents it (or married men wouldn't have bed slaves in the first place). "Ah, but that shows they like women in mythology!"…yeah…but well, some people like more than one gender. That still doesn't rule anything out, I don't see where we're going!

I've seen people explain that it's bc this is something modern… which isn't, there were already romantic interpretations of them in antiquity (Aeschylus, hello? Plato?). But then you point that out and they say "well, but it's not Homer" but then they bring up things like Polyxena and Penthesilea as proof and…their myths with Achilles aren't Homeric! And then they say it's not one of the explicitly declared couples…which, again, doesn't stop anything?? Even more so bc one of the people I saw saying this shipped two characters who never had any romantic text or subtext so it's a walking contradiction!

And even with this "explicit couples" thing, I've seen people talk about a vibe like "oh why focus on Patrochilles, which isn't even canon when there's Apollo x Hyacintus" and I'm still trying to find WHAT is the similarity between these two ships besides being between two male characters. Not even tragedy can be considered a determining factor since tragic couples are not exactly rare in mythology…like, oh tragic couple, so Megara x Heracles is the same too! C'mon, guys! I got the impression that these people have the idea that the ship only exists bc it's MLM and, therefore, any MLM ship plays the role even when the dynamics AREN'T the same…

Or they'll say "the fans make them into a straight stereotype of rigid gender roles", which if you go to the Ao3 tag and read the fics is easily refuted! Especially for Achilles, who depending on the fic isn't even a perisex cis man. But they really don't know the majority preferences of shippers bc e.g there's an idea that absolutely everyone is strictly bottom Pat x top Achilles bc "furious warrior Achilles" and "cool guy Patroclus"… which's funny bc it couldn't be further from reality! And the same person who says this has a ship with strict gender roles, for the love of god!

Even if the ship were canonically impossible… well, hcs exist! As a kid, I watched Naruto and thought Ino x Sakura was very cute, but that doesn't mean I DIDN'T notice that the canon couple was going to be Sakura x Sasuke. It looks like they've never seen shipping before, my god!

Finally: I left the most absurd for last. This wasn't on Tumblr, it was on another social network. Basically, user kind of texted something like "of course you like Patroclus x Achilles, you're not Greek!" And I'm still trying to understand the relationship between someone being Greek and someone liking or not liking a ship. Could it be that in the documents that ask for nationality, if you put "Greek" a questionnaire appears asking you if you ship Patrochilles and if you click "yes" you are taken for falsifying your nationality or something like that?

P.S.: You don't even need to answer this ask. I really just needed to comment on this nonsense, and my friends aren't mythology fans, so here we are!

Okay so I'm just over here nodding aggressively to a lot of things you said, I know you said I don't need to reply to this but let me just add a couple thoughts:

1. Seriously the cousin thing is laughable to me, like who cares who CARES!! Literally it doesn't even matter, not only were romantic relationships btwn cousins not that big a deal in ancient greek works and mythology but also there are so many literary works written before the 20-21st century that feature cousins falling in love, like in the realm of fiction at least it isn't the big and shocking thing the antis think it is, and it hasn't been for centuries, I don’t get why people get so worked up about that...... it doesn’t even count as an argument, moving on

2. People saying that Achilles can't possibly be queer because he sleeps with women and has a son etc etc..... I feel like they’re missing the point, because the thing about Achilles, in my opinion, isn't whether he’s gay or not, or even if he’s bi or not. Those neat little categories are a relatively modern invention I think, and I don’t think that any ancient person would identify as gay or straight or what have you. In some places being a little too close with your buddies (or your students, particularly young male students --athens i'm looking at you--) was a thing, in some others it wasn't, but it wasn't part of their identity like it is now, ykwim? So I think it's pointless to try to put Achilles and Patroclus in those boxes, many people have tried it and it doesn't work. Achilles may have a son with Deidamia but he doesn’t mention her in the Iliad not even once, he cares about Briseis and in the text he lies/sleeps with her but he wouldn’t stop Agamemnon's men from taking her nor would he return to the fighting for her, his relationship with or feelings for the women he sleeps/has slept with doesn't really affect his behaviour. It is Patroclus who he has the emotional bond with, Patroclus who convinces him to do something other than sulk in his camp, Patroclus whom Achilles values above all, Patroclus's death that changes the trajectory of the war and Achilles' own life. The bond between Achilles and Patroclus has cataclysmic consequences for all the Achaens and the Trojans, no other woman in Achilles' life comes close to what he has with Pat.

So like..... that's what's important here. Achilles could have slept with a thousand women and Patroclus with a thousand more and it wouldn't matter. I'm not here to argue whether they were exclusive or not sexually speaking, that's irrelevant and frankly I don't care. I also can't comment on Achilles x Polyxena or Penthesilea I'm not very familiar with those myths and they aren't even Iliad canon anyway so who cares. People have been writing fanfic about him for centuries, what's new.

3. As for the rest of the arguments against Patrochilles I have to admit I stay as far away from drama as I can so I don't really know what is being said online about them. The things you're saying honestly sound like toxic fandom behaviour and antis being at it for no goddamn reason. I'm not even going to respond to that because again, I don’t think there is anything to say. People can ship what they want and headcanon Achilles and Pat boinking any which way they want as long as they leave me alone lmao. Like as long as they don't come to my ask box or ao3 comments with dumbass or exclusionary views (or if Tumblr doesn't decide to spam me with them) then I'm good. I'm definitely not going to go looking for those views on Tumblr or elsewhere.

4. Honestly I didn't even know racism had been brought into this LMAO like I was not familiar with the take that if you're Greek you can't like Patroclus/Achilles. Like.... why is that? Why wouldn't a Greek person like Patrochilles? Do Greeks not have good taste then? I don't get it. Maybe it's because the Iliad is so deeply rooted into ancient greek culture and we learn about it in school or what not, so like it has to be this sacred thing that no one can touch/spoil? For me, shipping ancient dudes is the best way to actually learn a thing or two about history and literature and what have you LOL like I care so much more about the Iliad now than I did in high school. The sad thing is that I feel like if I ever told people irl that I ship Patrochilles they would first be baffled and then probably appalled lmao I can't even imagine their reaction if they ever saw the Patrochilles shrine I keep in my study 😂 Homophobia is a big thing here sadly, and I personally know people who would literally fight anyone who says that mlm was a thing in ancient Greece (because as we know the ancient greeks were the pinnacle of perfection and wisdom and the gays now just want to ruin that 🙄). I'll never forget my high school ancient greek teacher going into a whole rant about it for an hour, and also the school textbooks we had themselves were so heavily censored. It's just such a sad way to be if you ask me, both because you're a fucking homophobe but also you're missing out on so much of the nuance of this culture that you're supposed to "revere", it's always been super baffling to me.

Anyway this rant got away from me so I'll just stop here lmao. At the end of the day I think people will just say whatever they want about whatever they want, I sometimes also get upset and hurt by those dumb takes but it's really not worth it. I try to stay in my lane and block liberally and nerd out with like minded people and I think that's what life/fandom is about, you know