#Achilles and Patroklos

[jeannereames]

Good day, Dr. Reames! I'd like to ask you if you think the relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion (as well as that between Achilles and Patroclus) generates so much debate and is less accepted because both participants were of a similar age, rather than older men with younger men? I hope you can answer me. Thank you very much for your attention and constant work!

Modern Debate and Ancient Attitudes Regarding Alexander and Hephaistion

So, by debate, I’m not entirely clear in what arena the asker meant, academic or popular (or both), and the acceptance of these would also differ between then and now. So, I’ll try to hit several points below, to cover all the bases.

In antiquity, yes, same-age-cohort romantic relationships were less accepted, but we do see visual evidence for them. In contrast, moderns tend to be squicked by too much of an age gap, while some pictures of older men with youths would suggest as much as 10 (or more!) years. Of course, ancient marriage also included quite substantial age differences, so they’d be puzzled by our abhorrence. The fact Alexander and Hephaistion were around the same age makes their pairing more acceptable to the modern mind, rather than less.

Also, Achilles and Patroklos weren’t the same age. Patroklos was older. (The perception that they were the same age might owe to The Song of Achilles.) To the ancients, the problem in their case was the younger partner having the superior social status. Both were princes, but Achilles was the celebrated warrior and son of a goddess, which problematized it. (I made use of this at the end of Becoming, in Dancing with the Lion.)

So, we must separate ancient reactions from modern ones. What bothered them is rather different from what bothers us.

As for debate about the relationships themselves, by the 4th century, the average Greek did assume Achilles and Patroklos had been lovers, although there was some pushback among the mythographers apparently, whose point (not unlike moderns’) was that Homer never called them that. Yet Homer “coded” Patroklos’s behavior as closer to female, paralleling him with some of the women such as Andromache; this is likely why, when Aeschylus did portray them as lovers in the Myrmiddons, he made Patroklos younger, despite it contradicting Homer (and tradition). Yet a lot of post-Homer literature changed or contradicted Homer, so that wasn’t unusual. I’ve often said that we can regard both lyric poetry and tragic plays as “fanfic” on Homer and the other epic poets. 😊 They played fast and loose with the details of Homeric canon.

Similarly, by the late Hellenistic and Roman imperial eras, Hephaistion as Alexander’s lover was also assumed. How widely is less clear, but wide enough for an aphorism to emerge that Alexander had been conquered only by Hephaistion’s thighs. The Latin authors Justin and even Curtius use language for Hephaistion that’s suggestive of a sexual favorite, without coming out and saying so. Note, however, neither of them meant that in a good way. It would have been an insult for an adult male and military general to be Alexander’s boy-toy.

Now, as for modern resistance to the idea, these fall into two basic categories: 1) homophobic, and 2) critical attention to the source problem. These are obviously not the same. Homophobic speaks for itself and was the driving force up until the 1960s/70s, as I’ve explained elsewhere. After that, most specialists on Alexander swung to general assumption/acceptance of Alexander and Hephaistion as lovers. “Of course,” with a shoulder shrug.

Achilles and Patroklos are harder because they’re fictional, not real people. They did exist prior to Homer, but we’re still dealing with a piece of literature, not trying to see behind the curtain of historical accounts to what real people did (or didn’t do). That means the question is what Homer meant, which becomes literary interpretation. We might even ask if what Homer meant is all that important, versus how Homer was understood by subsequent generations. These are not real people. But Alexander and Hephaistion were, so that’s a horse of a different color.

Current academic questioning of Hephaistion and Alexander as lovers arises from a SOURCE issue. E.g., when the sources were written and what they imply. We don’t have anything until 300 years after Alexander’s reign, and that earliest source (Diodoros) doesn’t imply anything. Does that owe to Diodoros’s general abbreviated nature? Or did he imply nothing because there was nothing?

It’s not till we hit Curtius and Second Sophistic authors—or those even later such as Athenaeus (end of the second century CE)—that we find “hints and allegations,” or even blunt claims. So what’s that about? Were they using implication as a form of character assassination for Hephaistion, and Alexander too? Were they simply repeating “common knowledge” that arose more from gossip than reality? Athenaeus (603a/13.80) is quite blunt in stating Alexander liked “boys” (meaning youths), but he’s also 600+ years from Alexander. And he never links Alexander to Hephaistion; Hephaistion wasn’t, after all, a “boy.”

In short, we must look at how THEY meant it and detach that from how WE might understand it … or what we might like it to mean. This will (inevitably) annoy both sides of the socio-political fence: those who hate the idea that Alexander might have had male lovers AND those who really, really, really want him to have been gay.

It’s also why historians make enemies among the extreme Right and the extreme Left. We want history to be history, not political sloganeering.

In the ancient—especially Roman—world, two adult men carrying on a sexual affair past their very early 20s (at the latest) was BAD. So, those authors who are engaged in a program of portraying Alexander as sinking into Oriental Debauchery found it useful to imply that Alexander 1) kept a bunch of concubines, 2) had sex with a Persian eunuch (who he let influence official policy), and 3) even retained his very own general as his lover. That’s Curtius—bluntly for the first two, and with a with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge for the third. (As does Justin, albeit in abbreviated form.)

Arrian, who had a different—less negative—goal, is more restrained, ignoring claims of concubines and a eunuch. In his history, he never bluntly calls Hephaistion Alexander’s lover, but in his writings on Epiktatos, he does. Or rather, he has Epiktatos say so. In the history, Arrian uses comparatives with Achilles and Patroklos to imply what he wants to imply. The reader is meant to make the connection. This probably owes to Arrian’s flattery of his friend the Emperor Hadrian, who had Antinoös.

Plutarch is different yet again. Early in his biography, he portrays Alexander as a champion of sophrosune, so he didn’t carry on with anybody except his wives, and then only for love. (For reasons that are not Christian, which my friend and colleague Borja Antela-Benardez will address in a forthcoming book.) Yet too often, readers take his early claims as true in an absolute way and miss how Plutarch portrays Alexander changing (for the worse) in his later years. That owes to a tendency for readers to approach Plutarch piecemeal because of the anecdotal nature of the work. Don’t do that. How is Plutarch using that anecdote…and where is it in the larger work? Those questions matter. A lot. It also owes to people taking material from his rhetorical essays, “On the Fortune or Virtue of Alexander,” and mixing them up with his Life.

ANYway…. looking at all that, one can understand why trying to figure out what was really going on between Alexander and Hephaistion is…rough, to say the least.

What is calumnia (invented accusation to cause harm to someone’s reputation), versus simple gossip, versus Roman and earlier southern Greek/Athenian pearl-clutching over differing Macedonian sexual practices?

It’s genuinely hard to know.

If they were lovers as youths, then “grew out of” the physical but maintained the emotional attachment, that would explain such things as Alexander’s extreme reaction to Hephaistion’s death. And also, why later historians (dealing with events in their adulthood) didn’t mention it.

YET that assumes they were childhood friends. It’s probably one of the biggest difference between my evaluation of Hephaistion and Sabine’s—when did Hephaistion join the army and meet Alexander? I don’t plan to go into that here; I’ll save it for the book.

Another possibility, which rests on Theopompos’s criticisms of Philip’s court, is that Macedonians ended same-sex affairs later than southern Greek city-states, or at least later than Athens. That takes us back to the calumnia-or-pearl-clutching question. If such affairs did continue later in Macedonia, then Alexander and Hephaistion may not have been especially unusual, although they would have been expected to end things once they reached marriageable age.

And last, of course, is the very real possibility that they never were lovers, simply as close as brothers.

The difficulty there is a sort of reverse-homophobia, that anyone who claims such a thing must BE homophobic and deliberately trying to repress the Truth <tm>. This gets a bit exhausting to discuss with the average person who may not care about the ins-and-outs of source problems. It also, unfortunately, then feeds complaints by the alt-right about “political correctness” taking over history. That is JUST as frustrating for people trying to make a cogent historical argument. For some, if the explanation is longer than 3 sentences, it’s TL;DR. They prefer the short (and usually wrong) answer. Don’t bother me with the details. Oh, and shut up about the details, you’re just harshing my historical squee.

Yeah, I might get a bit frustrated with this.

I say that as someone who does think Alexander and Hephaistion were lovers, at least when younger. But I have sympathy for my colleagues who, for perfectly valid historiographic reasons, do not. So here I am, waving my arms around and saying, “Stop picking on them!” Even while I plan to make my own arguments against their position in the book. I have historiographic reasons of my own for believing I’m right—but accusations of homophobia are not among them.

For other posts I’ve done on various angles:

[ditoob]

“Showing Athena around the Greek Camp”

Recorded by Odysseus Laertides (1700 b.C.)

[greekmythcomix]

To explain my chicken obsession:

* * *

Me: I’m enjoying drawing chickens for this commission.

Husband: ha ha Greek Myth Chickens!

Me: 🤔

I now present to you,

🏺Greek Myth Chickens 🐓

ILIAD EDITION

(drawn and originally posted in May 2021, coloured and reposted Jan 2023)

1) Egg-chilles and Patro-cluck (Achilles and Patroclus)

2) Mene-lay-us and Al-eggs-andros (Paris) (Menelaus and Alexandros [Paris])

3) Egg-amemnon (Agamemnon)

4) Aph-roost-ite and Helen of Spur-ta (Aphrodite and Helen of Sparta)

5) Nest-or (Nestor)

6) Androma-beak, Peck-tor, and Astyan-egg (Andromache, Hektor and Astyanax)

7) At-hen-a and Egg-dysseus (Athena and Odysseus)

8) Preen-am and Peck-uba (Priam and Hekuba [Hekabe])

9) Brood-seis (Briseis)

10) Diom-egg-es (Diomedes)

EDIT: Greek Myth and Roman History chicken MASTERPOST - https://www.tumblr.com/greekmythcomix/725538723329179648/greek-myth-roman-history-chickens-master-post Here Be More Chickens Cosplaying

(See next post for last 3 Iliad chickens- https://www.tumblr.com/greekmythcomix/722218945873051648/iliad-chickens-continued-11-lay-jax-tel-capon )

[francarieq]

꩜ APOLLON ꩜

[miyetko]

ody at the end of the war

[deadbaguette]

So I rendered him… oh my god he’s pretty

Princess behaviour tbh

[sunrise94]

i hate seeing like healer patroclus/warrior achilles in shit omg. give me achilles and patroclus fighting together back to back slaughtering men and acting as an additional pair of eyes and arms for the other when someone comes charging at them. give me achilles and patroclus going home drenched in blood and cleaning each other off with this immense tenderness that contrasts the brutality of their actions and the war.

[wrath-of-achilleus]

in the Iliad, the rest of the greek commanders were separated from their wives (their domestic halves), but achilleus was not. patroklos was his tether to humanity by being his tether to domesticity, and when he died achilleus lost all hope for his homecoming (because his home was dead) and that led to him committing animalistic acts of wrath. women couldn’t participate in the warfare of the Iliad, which is why Homer had to create the character of patroklos (and his unique relationship with achilleus) — to show us what happens when humans (specifically men) are brutally ripped away from domesticity.

[h0bg0blin-meat]

Achilles: See I'm straight but if there was a man I would marry it'd be Patroclus.

Briseis: How do you feel about that, Pat?

Patroclus:

Patroclus: It's not helping with the rumors.

Briseis: I think the kiss you guys shared in my tent isn't helping with the rumors.

Achilles: Yeah I just hate that he didn't give me enough tongue.

[katerinaaqu]

Patroclus being who he is could be a result of his life (And why his drunkenness of win and rage made him forget Achilles's warning) - an Analysis

This analysis was requested by @theoncomingchaos after reading my Achilles personality analysis so of course his life partner must have some spotlight of his own! Here goes! Patroclus having anger issues and why he grew drunk in his winning and didn't heed Achilles's word and approached the walls of Troy!

Has anyone noticed how Patroclus is so gentle to Achilles and other people he feels close to such as the rest of the Greeks but when he is out in the battlefield he is arguably one of the most violent and passionate fighters (and FAR from this "teddy bear" the retellings paint him as)? And how incredibly PSYCHOLOGICAL it all is?!

He was the son of a man who was a famous hero, an Argonaut. A man who was also known to be the son of a man mated with a goddess (Actor and Aegina) and bears a great legacy

His name literally reflects upon his expectations (Patroclus-> πατήρ/father + κλέος/glory-> Patroclus=Glory of his father)

He forced that said father and himself to become exiled because he killed his playmate Clitonymus in a game of dice

From prince of Opus he was taken to Peleus's horsemen and trained as a squire.

He followed around a demigod with incredible fame and terrible fate who arguably had more talent in one pinkie finger than what he ever got in his entire life and yet his own efforts and training made him keep up with him and become a strong fighter to remember himself.

He lived all his life knowing he would one day watch that demigod he loved more than anything in the world die and he had to cope with this every single second of his life.

He had to make peace with the fact that his beloved was in a way humiliated by being dressed in female clothing in order to avoid the war and glory he so much desired.

He saw the man he loved more in his life getting humiliated by getting his war prize removed from him

He watched that man he loved most in the world turn into a ruthless person who showed no sympathy for the destruction befalling upon the Greek army despite his own desperate pleas.

One can definitely see Patroclus had a definite rage issue. His rage was boiling inside him for many things throughout his life. As a child though he let that anger issue win over and in one moment of madness he killed another person. He became a murderer in such a tender age over an absolutely small thing; a game of dice. Who can imagine what was going on through his mind that very moment that he saw that body hit the floor or much more that he betrayed his father's expectations and stained his good name (and I remind you Patroclus was literally named "FATHER'S GLORY" so he was supposed to reflect on his father's glory) and he made his father not only get humiliated but also get exiled.

All because of that one small moment of rage!

In one moment from a prince he was becoming a refugee and had to learn the trade of a horseman and of a squire to another person's palace. No, to another FAMILY MEMBER'S palace. Patroclus must have been feeling the criticism of the entire family every second of his early life! But then he also found a child close to his age to bond with; his cousin Achilles, whom was assigned to be companion for.

What was going on through his head when that kid effortlessly was best in everything? Did he feel the old rage coming back and biting his lips to the point of bleeding so he wouldn't make the same mistake twice? Or maybe he was finally content. He finally found someone that could never die by a random fit of anger of his! He attached himself to Achilles completely. He becomes his lifelong companion and his friend, his partner, his family, his everything. His love for that child, the only child that he is not afraid he might hurt because of how strong he is that can break his curse. And at the same time he dedicates himself to that child because he wants to wash away his sin; the kid he hurt now he can make it right by protecting another! Not letting anything happen to that kid on his watch again.

And what does he find out?

That this kid is destined to die young at some war in a foreign land and gain eternal glory (the very meaning of HIS name)!!!

His world might as well have collapsed a second time!

He watches that kid, best at everything, train under the care of Chiron the centaur, he trains with him trying to be the best he can and stand by his side. To PROTECT him so he won't see another person die! And every time realizing that there is probably nothing he can do.

This time the rage is inside him! And towards the side of war that is destined to take Achilles from him!

He found that only one person he didn't fear he could hurt, that person that he felt would be his redemption and that person he had to lose

He had failed his family and his family name with that crime and now that he had the chance to glorify his family he felt he would fail again!

He saw Achilles suffering more than one humiliation at a time and his fragile psyche break and he felt helpless to do anything about it

All the years of training to protect and help Achilles seemed in vain

He had one chance to save Achilles! He took it!

This is why he is so enraged in the battlefield out there! He literally feels all the bottled up rage he has over the years especially rage towards himself released out to the battlefield. He doesn't hate the enemy but he hates that this enemy will possibly drive Achilles to the end. And at the same time he feels he has the duty to be the reasonable voice. He tells Achilles he has to fight. Because he cannot stand seeing the Greeks die while he stands there watching helplessly like he watched his playmate die.

But then Achilles gives him a chance to fight. Patroclus doesn't hesitate. In fact he is thrilled. Not only will he channel all the accumulated rage inside him to the battle but he is also protecting Achilles. And then he sees Hector. He was already battle-drunk and certain he can finally bring glory to his name, honor for his father but above all...

He has the chance to kill Hector; the man that could be the destruction of Achilles! He has the chance to take the biggest threat down!

No wonder he forgets everything; every advice every logic every sense of ability. That moment he represents Achilles! He has to be as good as Achilles! He has to protect him and the Greeks! He has to defeat the main threat against the Greeks

He HAS to channel that rage of his!

His life is about channeling that rage and that tenderness he wants to feel and that balance was brought to him at war. No wonder that he was taken down by gods as well out at the battlefield. Because his body was not the only thing that needed to be stopped but also that soul of his; all the boiling rage and fear in his life.

Finally requesting to be buried with the one he loved the most in the world but also someone he could finally share glory with; Achilles the best of Greeks. He lived in his shadow by fate and by choice. In his death he wanted to be his equal.

Ironically Patroclus was both extremely tender and extremely violent because of the same reason; his sin and his humiliation and his love for Achilles that all of it brought the edges of his life to one single decision; to take upon himself Achilles's fate and finally make it right! He was exiled all his life. He died in a foreign land buried in another land. But at least he was with Achilles in the afterlife and he FINALLY gained the recognition too given how the two of them are being honored together as heroes

Honestly how people can say that the ancient sources are "not interesting" or "not relatable" nowadays unless they turn them some monstrosity of their former self is beyond me!

My set of analysis involving Patroclus Achilles and Patroclus relationship On silence and expression of emotions (inspired by @deadbaguette)

My usual squad being called again: @likethexan @wolfythewitch @hymnoeides @h0bg0blin-meat @smokey07 @achillesisnotcomingdown @ri-dumb-fck @emmikay @superkooku @captnbunnie @venomspecs @roachcicle @mt-isnothere12 @mythology-lover @kindred-spirit-93 @dionysism @soarinsugar-homerblog @margaretkart @theoncomingchaos @embarrassedauthornerd

[bcb-brian-camryn]

Odysseus, Phoenix, Ajax (the greater): Please as your friend, teacher and cousin rejoin the war efforts, we need your Myrmidons, we're literally dying 🥺🙏

Achilles: No 😡🖕

Patroklos: Beloved, you are cruel, our friends are dying, please at least let me rejoin the war efforts and lead our men into battle 🥺🙏

Achilles: Of course, my beloved, my loved and most honoured companion and friend, heart of my heart, soul of my soul, do what you want, here have my god-gifted armour and come straight back to me safe and unharmed or else I'll go insane 🥰❤️

[kupidachillea]

Achilles x You x Patroclus hcs

Author note: this took way too long. But this is respond to the request I got for more of these two and the reader. Ngl- I’m with them- I’m a sucker for those boys (Patroclus save me-)

TW (Trigger warning): Not much. It starts off as fluff then slowly branches into angst sort. Has a few Yandere themes. Achilles being possessive along with Patroclus. Slightly out of character (but hey, it’s a fan fic). Achilles and Patroclus are lonely lads and want a third-

CW (Content warning)⚠️: Slight coercion, manipulation (?), drugging with magical fruit. Forced imprisonment (?), Achilles and Patroclus are being selfish. This takes place in the modern world.

Basic summary: What happens when you decide to visit the underworld and meet two long dead heroes? Do you make new friends and form a bond or do you awaken something darker..?

🌿- You were granted permission to visit the underworld. A privilege that wasn’t given to many. It wasn’t as simple as finding a secret passage and letting yourself in.

🏺- No, Hades had gotten more stricter with all that. Not like the days of old where many heroes and mortals were able to just waltz on inside the land of the dead. You, however, were blessed enough to have the opportunity to explore and experience this world. Hades was kind enough to pardon you. As long as you followed a few simple rules of course.

🌿- One such rule was ‘Do not eat of any fruit or food in the land of the dead.’ Of course you took in his words and tried to honour them as best you could..however the moment you were granted access, that important rule slipped your mind. Now only full with excitement and wonder.

🏺- You would traverse through the foreign terrain and territory of the underworld. Occasionally seeing Hermes and giving him a greeting or so. You saw unique plants and creatures..not to mention the Shades.

🌿- For the most part the Shades were like people, living their lives in the Asphodel fields. Most of them paid you know mind while others would give you a simple wave.

🏺- Eventually though m you find yourself in the Elysian. You weren’t aware that you had traveled so far until a certain fiery blonde approached you.

🌿- He was a bit taller than you, piercing green eyes and olive skin. He looked familiar but you couldn’t quite place where you had seen him before. “A mortal in the land of the dead? Haven’t seen one in years…” He would mutter. A slight confused smirk on his face as he took you in.

🏺- He had that thick Greek accent that Hades would have and that’s when it hit you..this must be Achilles. He was a bit surprised to see a human all the way down here unscathed but he actually didn’t mind all that much, especially after you introduced yourself.

🌿- The two of you got to talking as you both walked through the valley together. He would ask you about how you ended up down here and you would explain your story. Of course he was a bit confused but he seemed to understand for the most part. It’s been awhile since he had a conversation with the living..and he was enjoying this little blessing in disguise.

🏺- Soon enough you both stumbled upon another man. He was a bit taller than Achilles (even if he was sitting by a tree you could tell) and his hair was a dark brown with lovely curls..his eyes were as grey as a brewing storm. His skin darker than the blonde next to you and he had visibly more scars than Achilles.

🌿- It took you a moment to realise that this was Patroclus; only when Achilles went up to greet the other did it finally click in your head.

🏺- Achilles obviously introduced you to his companion. And from there you all talked and got to know each other better. By the end of your visit you all made arrangements for you to come back and meet them.

🌿- So over the course of the next few days you’d come down to the under world just to check up on the pair of ancient warriors. You’d talk to them about life in the 21st century and they would teach about the ancient world.

🏺- Obviously you took this to your advantage. Who needs google when you have the (not so) living proof right in front of you?

🌿- But unbeknownst to you, a new feeling started to emerge inside both men. They liked you…they both did…every time you would come down to meet them, they dreaded sending you away when it was time to leave.

🏺- They hated it. They couldn’t help but worry. They didn’t think it was right. How could they protect you if you weren’t with them? Anything could happen once you left the safety of the Elysian.

🌿- They both ended up talking and discussing a plan..a way to keep you down here with them. There’s no harm in that..right?

🏺- “We’re just trying to protect the poor dear…right?” Patroclus would say, as if he was trying to justify what they were about to do to you on your next visit.

🌿- Achilles would scoff as an impish smile graced his lips. “Of course..the mortal should be grateful. It’s the only right decision..”

🏺- They both nodded to each other. Their plan was set.

🌿- The next time you came to visit, it went as usual. You all talked, joked, and conversed about each other’s day. You really enjoyed being around them and they LOVED being around you..

🏺- Eventually though, your stomach grumbled. You were hungry, you would let out a soft groan. Whining about how you wish you packed snacks. Both boys grinned..perfect.

🌿- They could now put their plan into action. Patroclus got up and went over to a fig tree, beckoning you over along with Achilles. “Well if you’re hungry, dear- why not take a fig from this tree..?” Patroclus asked softly. His voice was cool and calm, hiding any form of deceit or manipulation.

🏺- You would stare up at the fruit before going on your tip toes and picking one. It was a pretty looking fruit and you figured it would be the same as the ones on the surface..however just as you were about to take a bit you paused. Didn’t Hades warn you about having any form of food from the underworld?

🌿- Your thoughts were interrupted when Achilles spoke up. He could see the doubt and hesitation growing in your mind and he was desperate to make you forget your uncertainty. “What’s wrong? Do you not like figs? We could get you something else…” He would say.

🏺- You blinked and shook your head, telling him it was fine before you pushed your doubts aside and took a bite of the fruit. Besides, what could possibly go wrong? More than you think.. unfortunately for you..you had just made a grave mistake..

🌿- You felt a little weird but you brushed it off as being tired, meanwhile the two men looked much too happy that you had eaten the fig from this land. Their plan had worked, you were as good as theirs.

��- When you expressed you were feeling a bit drowsy they took it upon theirselves to get you a nice place to rest. Patroclus allowing you to rest your head on his lap as you drifted off. Achilles’ hand playing with your hair as you started to sleep.

🌿- “It’s alright, dear..just rest..we’ll be here when you wake up..” Achilles uttered, a slight smirk on his lips as he ran his calloused fingers through your hair. With his words you finally submitted to sleep.

🏺- It was done…you were now theirs. You had sealed your fate, for better or worse..

[ditoob]

Most of these designs have changed by now, but here is an old Achaean line up

[lions-and-men-musical]

l&m patrochilles

[miyetko]

“Patroklos…I loved him, and I killed him.” -Book 18 of The Iliad

[helpmeimblorboing]

I’m starting to believe that the ancient Greeks had a thing for really powerful men falling in love with men who are objectively weaker (Patroclus bb I love you but Achilles is a literal demigod)

Like, Apollo and Hyacinthus ? Achilles and Patroclus ? Hylas and Heracles ? Theseus and Pirithous (not too sure about this one) ? Alexander and Hephaestion (again, not sure if Hephaestion was really Weaker than Alexander, but he sure as fuck had less authority than his king) ?

Like they had a theme and by God were they going to stick to it

Side note : Does Macedon count as part of Greece ? Because I’ve heard conflicting accounts of that point