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applesanddragons · 22 days ago

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The She-wolf - Tower of Joy, A Study in Symbolic Interpretation Chapter 14

Chapter 14 - The She-wolf

Previous: Chapter 13 - The Black Bat

Beginning: Chapter 0-4 - Introduction

Three Kingsguard

One of the long lasting questions about the Tower of Joy is ‘Why were there three Kingsguard, as opposed to one, two or four?’ It seems overkill for Rhaegar to have so many of his deadliest fighters devoted to guarding a 14 or 15-year-old girl and a tower in the middle of nowhere, especially while those Kingsguard could have been the difference between victory or defeat at the Battle of the Trident, as Ned and Oswell point out in Ned's Tower of Joy dream.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. (AGOT 39 Eddard X p354)

Ned’s line suggests that Ned was expecting more Kingsguard at the Battle of the Trident, and Oswell’s line suggests that Oswell would have preferred fewer Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy and more at the Battle of the Trident. So these lines steer me away from the questions “Why not four?” and "Why not more?" and toward the questions “Why not two? Or one? Or none?” What’s so important at the Tower of Joy that Rhaegar thinks two Kingsguard are not enough to guard it?

If the baby Lyanna is birthing at the Tower of Joy is Jon Snow and Rhaegar is Jon's father, then maybe Rhaegar wanted to protect Lyanna and his son Jon. But since Rhaegar’s first son and heir (Aegon) was still alive in King’s Landing at the time, it may not make sense for Rhaegar to have placed the three Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy rather than at King’s Landing. So maybe Jon isn't the reason. On the other hand, the Tower of Joy is more vulnerable than the Red Keep, so it might make sense after all.

The Number Three

In November 2012, a mobile phone application was released by the name of George R. R. Martin’s A World of Ice and Fire — A Game of Thrones Guide (henceforth AWOIAF). AWOIAF provided new tidbits of information that can’t be found in any of the previously published books. The information in it is considered semi-canon, because it was written by Martin’s co-authors from The World of Ice and Fire, Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson, with input from Martin himself.

In the Rhaegar Targaryen section of AWOIAF, we learn that, after the Targaryen defeat in the Battle of the Bells, King Aerys sent his Kingsguard commander Ser Gerold Hightower from King’s Landing to find and retrieve Rhaegar. Though Rhaegar returned to King’s Landing, Gerold did not. Gerold was next seen at the Tower of Joy in Dorne, with Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, guarding Lyanna Stark.

To judge by this information, it seems that when Gerold found Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar told Gerold to stay and help guard it, and then departed for King’s Landing himself.

It’s a little strange that the commander of the Kingsguard obeys a command that keeps him far away from the king he’s sworn to protect, and during dire times such as these. It seems even stranger considering that the command comes from Rhaegar, who the king believes is trying to usurp the throne from him. Though, it doesn’t seem much stranger than Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne doing the very same thing.

Whatever is really going on here regarding these characters’ true loyalties and motivations, I notice that this new crumb of information has the effect of highlighting a familiar-looking intrigue about the Tower of Joy: When Gerold arrived, Rhaegar left. In other words, when three guards became four, Rhaegar made it three again. Yet again, the Tower of Joy clues lead us to a question about the number of guards.

What’s so important about the number three guards? What can three guards do that two can't?

Now that we know Lyanna was a skinchanger, we can tie a bow on this mystery, too. Three is the minimum number of guards needed to guard a skinchanger.

Think about it. Whenever a group of two or more travel companions go to sleep in dangerous territory, what do they do? One person stays awake to keep watch while the rest of the group sleeps. Halfway through the night, the watcher wakes a second person and they switch places so the watcher can get some sleep too. The purpose of this is to make sure there is always somebody keeping watch and the guards get enough sleep to function the next day.

If the group is guarding a prisoner day and night, two guards is enough guards to ensure there is always one person watching the prisoner, and each guard has a chance to sleep if they take turns. But if the prisoner is a skinchanger, two guards isn't enough anymore. While Guard-A sleeps, the skinchanger can take the body of Guard-B, use it to kill Guard-A, then open any prison doors and manacles, and then manacle or kill himself before returning to her own body. With three guards, that won't be possible because two can stay awake and watch each other for suspicious behavior.

So, when the third guard arrived (Gerold Hightower) that freed up Rhaegar to leave the Tower of Joy and bring battle to the Trident.

Now recall the "strange chill" that Ned felt on the way to visit the dying Robert Baratheon. It becomes even more understandable. The three Kingsguard Ned passed reminded him that Lyanna skinchanged Oswell Whent, but it did more than that. It also reminded Ned why the number of Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy had to be three. Two was not enough guards to guard a body snatching prisoner. Like so, the implicit question in Ned's Tower of Joy line "I looked for you on the Trident" receives an answer. 'Where were you on the Trident?' asked Ned. 'I was stuck here,' each of the three kingsguard men could have answered, 'because two isn't enough guards to guard your sister.'

The Queen of Love and Beauty

If there is one single moment in ASOIAF that comes to readers' minds more than any other when the phrase "Central mysteries" or "mysteries" is uttered, then I think it must be the image of Rhaegar placing the queen of love and beauty's crown of pale blue roses in Lyanna's lap at the Tourney of Harrenhal.

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. (AGOT 58 Eddard XV p526)

'Why did Rhaegar do it?' we all want to know. Did Rhaegar fall in love with Lyanna because of her selfless deeds as the Knight of the Laughing Tree? Did Rhaegar know how insulting this would be to his wife Elia Martell? That it would be received as such a scandal? That it would start a civil war? Was Rhaegar just so obsessed with prophecy and getting his "third head of the dragon" prophecy baby that he calculated those risks and damages were worth it to, ostensibly, save the world from the Others and the Long Night?

As with the mystery of the three guards, the mystery of the queen of love and beauty can now be solved by applying what we learned in our Tower of Joy investigation. The reason Rhaegar Targaryen rode past his wife Elia Martell and laid the crown of blue roses in Lyanna's lap was because, for that moment, Rhaegar was not Rhaegar. He was Lyanna Stark.

After Rhaegar won the joust and rode his victory laps, Lyanna reached out with her psychic skinchanging power and took control of Rhaegar's mind and body. She rode past Elia Martell and laid the crown of blue roses in her own lap. Now having awarded herself with a public display of affection from the most desirable man in the kingdom, Lyanna returned to her own body, leaving the prince atop his horse feeling "love struck" indeed.

Of course, I'm referring to GRRM's answer to a fan question in 2016 at an International Book Fair in Guadalajara, Mexico.

u/dyhtstriyk 88 pts 2016 So my question was: Why do you think the political institutions in the Seven Kingdoms are so weak? His [GRRM's] answer: the Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos. Interesting answer. [reddit]

Lyanna skinchanging Rhaegar is a resolution to the Queen of Love and Beauty mystery that will undoubtedly cause much of the ASOIAF subculture to shift uncomfortably in their seats, because it comes during the 28th year of a tradition of heaping most of the blame onto Rhaegar, and of enshrining Lyanna as simultaneously empowered and helpless, woman and child, hero and victim.

u/Salem1960s 625 pts 2023 (...) Rhaegar Targeyen was a cunt. Who looks up from a book and says: ”It seems I must be a warrior.”? That’s a fucking pompous statement, isn’t it? Forget for a moment that Lyanna was a dumb teenager in love, who may not have not known any better, essentially groomed by an adult male. Forget that for a moment. Forget about the prophecies for a moment. Let’s imagine for a moment that prophecies, or at least, that prophecy were absolute and utter bullshit. Let’s look at this in practical terms: This guy was, in all honesty, a massive fucking idiot: Reckless, impulsive, heedless, irrational, and frankly, selfish and narcissistic. He threw everything aside for a fucking prophecy that he was narcissistic enough to think was about him. And one could argue that that “prophecy” was an excuse to bang a young girl. Didn’t seem to care that his actions got his new side piece’s dad and brother killed. Oops! (...) [reddit]

A teenage girl's desire for the most desirable man in the kingdom, in and of itself, should not be surprising. Rhaegar has the good looks, athleticism, authority, money, and prestige that has always attracted women. Yet it still surprises us, and one major reason is because it's a reversal of our modern expectations. Wherever a man and woman are found cohabiting a scandal, our collective tendency is to assume the man is the predator and the woman is the victim. But as every sufficiently attractive, successful, and prestigious man can tell you, the truth is often quite the reverse — that the woman is the predator and the man is the object of her predation.

Sadly, most of us will never experience what it's like to be Rhaegar-Targaryen levels of desirable to women, leaving us with little cause to consider that a woman's desire for a man, even a 14- or 15-year-old "child-woman of surpassing loveliness" as Ned Stark puts it, is the smoking gun in a long beloved and belabored mystery. With this acknowledgement, I can see that this old mystery owes much of its fortitude to its audience's protectiveness of women and jealousy of men alike.

In a Tower of Joy parallel at the Whispers, Brienne's hatred of men resulted in the death of an innocent man named Nimble Dick Crabb, symbolizing that if the ASOIAF audience wants to solve the Tower of Joy mystery, we need to notice how our own hatreds of men are preventing us from discovering what happened at the Tower of Joy. In the fog of the Rhaegar and Lyanna mystery, jealous men and man-hating women have found a common cause: Destroy a good man's reputation. As one commenter all too aptly said it:

u/Usual_Jackfruit 7 pts 2023 All this subreddit do is trash on Rhaegar like he is a real person [reddit]

A New Whisper

Once more, we've come upon a compelling partial answer to the question of what the whispered promises were that Lyanna asked of Ned in her dying moments. 'Promise me, Ned, that you won't let anyone know that I skinchanged Rhaegar and crowned myself the queen of love and beauty.'

A Fledgling Philosophy

To echo something I said in Chapter 7, the first time you solve a big mystery you have your first complete model of how ASOIAF's symbolic revelations work from bottom to top, and the things you can learn from that model will generalize to the rest of the story's mysteries, setting in motion a gradually snowballing effect of mystery solving by improving your understanding of the story’s philosophy and your educated guesses.

We've got our snowball rolling at a good pace now and we have knocked down a handful of the big mysteries at the center of ASOIAF, so now is a good time to stop and ask, what do you think is the story's philosophy? To put it another way, what attitudes in the audience are the story's revelations consistently subverting?

Nimble Dick Crabb was being a good guide when we thought he was being a bad guide.

Brienne was being a bad knight when we thought she was being a good knight.

Rhaegar was a victim when we thought he was being a predator.

Lyanna was being a predator when we thought she was a victim.

The pattern will become easier to see if I rewrite them this way.

A man was being good when we thought he was being bad.

A woman was being bad when we thought she was being good.

A man was being good when we thought he was being bad.

A woman was being bad when we thought she was being good.

The philosophy that's guiding all of these revelations is about men characters being better than the audience thought and women characters being worse than the audience thought. The story is implicitly suggesting that its audience, on the whole, is overcritical of men characters and undercritical of women characters. To put it another way for those who don't like the notion that a story makes suggestions, George R. R. Martin is suggesting that his audience, on the whole, is overcritical of men characters and undercritical of women characters.

It is a simplistic philosophy, to be sure, but just like when defining a symbol, when defining a philosophy it's good to start with a simple and straight-to-the-point description and then refine it as you go. The implicit prescription, then, is that we should become less critical of men characters and more critical of women characters, if we want to solve more ASOIAF mysteries. Because of its repetition, we can expect this philosophy to generalize to the rest of the story.* In the next chapter we'll apply this understanding to the mysteries of Rhaegar Targaryen. "It seems I must be a warrior" the mysterious boy prince enigmatically said.

[[ * While 2-4 repititions are enough to warrant this conclusion, if tentatively, in practice I didn't notice the philosophy until I saw it repeated across many mysteries. So admittedly I am jumping the gun with this conclusion for the sake of demonstrating an advanced stage of symbolic interpretation while constraining myself to information we've covered in this Whispers≈TOJ symbol investigation. A sad side effect of doing this is that I'm spending revelations that would have been more satisfying by booting up a new symbol and working up to them incrementally like we did in this essay series. For instance, a Prologue≈TOJ symbol could have taught us some of the same things we learned from Whispers≈TOJ, like that Gerold's sword broke (like Waymar Royce) and one of Ned's seven men did not fight (like the six Others). This would have been our predicament no matter which TOJ parallel I chose to investigate, so it was unavoidable, but hopefully the Whispers was a good choice and the surprises will still be satisfying. ]]

Next: Chapter 15 - The Dragon Prince

Beginning: Chapter 0-4 - Introduction

applesanddragons

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redwolf17 · 1 year ago

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Would you be able to do a quick age recap of where everyone is at after the most recent Olyvar chapter? And how old do we think Margaery is? I never got a great read on it through the books or show, except that I think she’s supposed to be much older in the show. Also, did Theon age during his time as tree food? Or was he kind of in a stasis, as it seems like his muscles didn’t desiccate?

Love your work!

Happy to clarify! Here’s some ages as of February, 305 AC

Edythe: 48

Paul the Pious: Mid 40s

Bel: 42

Jaime and Cersei: 38

Theon: 27ish

Meria/Rhaenys: 25

Olyvar/Aegon: 23

Meera: 22

Robb: 21

Jon: 21

Margaery: 21

Sansa: 18

Arya: 15 (turning 16 in March)

Bran: 14

Rickon: 9

Margaery’s age is explicitly stated in text; she’s 14ish in AGOT and 16 in AFFC, so the same age as Robb.

#the weirwood queen #always enjoy a good ask

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daenerys-stormborn · 7 months ago

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Isn't Dany at that point like...pretty young? A child? Why is it strange that she would change as she grows older and has a better understanding of what slavery is?

She was 13 in AGoT and 15/16 by the end of ADWD. So she is very young!

Daenerys barely had much agency in her life during AGoT, basically had to do what the men in her life told her. So not much she can do about the dothraki selling slaves but at least she felt bad, and clearly did not like.

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver’s Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

But being in that position and facing so much trauma, sometimes your brain tries any way to make it "normal". Obviously her saying 'this is the price for the iron throne' is bad and not okay, but she clearly just facing a lot of trauma and trying to rationalize it.

Anyways, so it's not like GRRM forgot this chapter. He knows what he is doing almost all the time. She just goes on to have more agency and having the power to make a stop to slavery.

#but now i want to reread the books #cause its been a WHILE #weirwood.net

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thewingedwolf · 2 years ago

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like a quarter of the way through a clash of kings, this is just some random assortment of thoughts, pls remember that i do not remember jack shit about what happens later so no one can judge me if i wonder if a theme will hold throughout the series okay.

davos seaworth

i don’t have anything intelligent to say beyond that i love this man so much. can’t wait for him to completely crash into the northern storyline in the books. i highlighted this line from him because i loved it so much, because i love when peasantry get one over the lords: in time, my little black ship will fly as high as Velaryon’s seahorse or Celtigar’s red crabs.

i do love his chapters for a similar reason to arya’s - we get a glimpse of what the low born in this universe deal with. davos thinks a lot about his life before stannis & the way he’s treated in comparison to the other lords. he’s always keenly aware of how precarious his situation is & it not only gives him the unique ability to give stannis honest advice, it makes him more astute than a lot of the men around him.

tyrion i - iii

first of all, i love putting tyrion on like 2x the speed to get through his chapters quicker lmao

second - there’s just such a dissonance between his very clear headed way of understanding the precarious social roles of sex workers & the way he looks at shae (and tysha, since he still thinks she’s a sex worker atp). he can recognize, mourn, and attempt to get some semblance of justice for the woman and her baby that cersei has ordered murdered, and even when he’s being kind to slynt to put him at ease, there’s an undercurrent of disgust there at how callously slynt thinks about the young woman he had murdered. and yet, just moments later, he thinks about how he’s given shae a pretty house with pretty guards and pretty things, but when she makes moves to become closer to him emotionally, he thoroughly puts her back in her place as a low born sex worker. there’s a line at the very end of his chapter where he says “he wanted to laugh, he wanted to weep, most of all, he wanted shae” and it just boggles my mind that he can yearn for love, sensuality, & understanding so keenly, but can’t extend his belief that Women Are People Too to the woman who shares his bed, then descends into a “maybe all women are bitches, actually” as he continues down his path.

catelyn i

interesting how quickly robb turns on catelyn. he was a bit more amenable to listening to her in agot, but the moment he feels he’s “a man grown” he stops listening to her almost immediately and completely. part of it is youth, part of it is, ya know, the general violent patriarchy of westeros eating at his brain, and both of these imo combine to make this storm of extreme resentment towards cat, something she clocks almost immediately. “kings don’t have mothers” is how she puts its. i think atp she’s gotten the idea that he resents her calls for peace bc it makes him feel like he’s being brash & dismisses her on the word of the men around him - that she has a “woman’s heart” and is too gentle to understand how wars are won.

but imo he seems equally resentful that she’s right to chastise him at almost every turn. she’s right to think theon will turn, balon can’t be counted on, cersei will find his terms insulting, the lannisters would only trade sansa for jaime, rickard’s anger & grief will become a problem, the river lords shouldn’t have been sent home, he should have acted quicker in trading jaime, and she’s going to continue being correct! Catelyn is intelligent, she was raised as Hoster’s heir apparent for most of her childhoodl. She is a well of knowledge that Robb refuses to tap into because she will not tell him what he wants to hear. This might have been something he outgrew as he got older tbf; plenty of 15 year old boys are resentful of their mothers telling them they are wrong. But those other 15 year old boys aren’t kings waging wars, and they get the benefit of failing and learning better. Robb, uh, does not 💀💀

theon i

where’s that “theon gets so bold for being a misogynist” post, it’s always what i’m thinking about. he’s so mean to that poor sailor’s daughter even as he’s projecting his own daddy issues onto her, but in his projection of “all fathers are cruel to their children, that’s just life” he doesn’t offer her sympathy, he tells her to get over it. partially general lordly “you’re a peasant woman and i’ll use you how i like” but also clearly theon’s own issues with father figures & masculinity.

also theon has “a certain affection” for robb, okay you lying bitch lmao just a lil bit of feeling right, you basically don’t care at all about robb, he’s just a dumb kid. smh. also interesting how he asks after his mother & sister first, and how dismissive he is of balon, how he remembers nothing positive of his brothers. he walks onto Pyke clearly trying to emulate them yet well aware they are not men worthy of emulating.

dany i

idek what to say about dany lmao. i sort of wish she’d spent more time with the dothraki & more time focusing on her khalasar bc that’s the only culture she ever really accepts & wants to be part of. it kind of makes sense with her personality - i think there is something appealing to a girl who has been abused by a brother who is clearly less intelligent & less capable than she is, in a people who literally wear their capability in their hair. but grrm clearly isn’t interested in fleshing out the dothraki lmao and we move on from the dothraki sea quickly.

the other thing that sticks out to me is her relationship with jorah. it means something very different to her than it does to him & it’s just now that she’s started to realize that, but she still believes she can reconcile those two things for him. she doesn’t desire him, but she does love him, and she believes that giving him a gentle, happy ending to his story & giving him love as his queen will be enough for jorah. such a sweet little girl way of thinking about him, and it really reminds me how young she is at this time, which makes his whole existence so much worse.

arya & sansa

my main thoughts on arya are just how horrifically the war has spread to the small folk. so many of these chapters are arya’s pov; tyrion, robb, & cat are all involved in the politics but arya is right there witnessing what the cost of the war is. the scene with the woman who keeps saying please and her toddler in particular were really unsettling.

i think there’s also a lot of emphasis on how helpless sansa & arya are in their circumstances & how often they try to steal just a bit of agency. arya is always reaching out for some sort of emotional link - to yoren, when she’s scared by the wolves, to gendry, to hot pie, to jaquen. trying to find something to anchor her amongst her life spiraling out of control. sansa, meanwhile, asserts her independence at every turn - reaching out to tommen & myrcella when Joff clearly dislikes them, making smart comments even knowing joffrey will beat her for it, saving ser dontos, all to remind herself that she is still a person with a moral compass, still worthy of dignity. it’s depressing lol, they’re both really going thru it right now.

bran

bran’s chapters are a breather between everyone’s doom & gloom and jon being so involved in Important Plot Things rn. he’s such a sweet boy, willing to take criticism from Maester Luwin, doing his duty as a prince even as he’s struggling with how his life has been transformed by his disability. he’s kind and serious about dealing with manderly & hornwood, and he quickly realizes both that lady hornwood is lonely & in need of a husband to protect her claim, while also that her seat needs an heir & lord hornwood had a bastard - he thinks of jon, of how smart & skilled jon is, and thinks about giving the seat to a bastard. hes also funnier lmao - like the comment about how the marriage bed always involves a man sleeping on top of his wife aksjsjs. such an 8 year old thing to think.

there’s also more of bran’s selective amnesia - the moment the lannisters are mentioned, he starts having trouble breathing & has another green dream. something to be said - and none of it is good - about how closely intertwined bran’s trauma is with his abilities. i don’t want him to come back as an empty shell

(even though i maintains that he wasn’t an empty shell. but was that just the actor making decisions or did d&d just badly adapt something more complicated or completely axe a chunk of bran’s arc, i mean it’s clear they didn’t like him, they cut him out of a full season lmao. and i mean. look at my username. LOOK AT IT. this is my header on twitter and it’s been my header for a long time!!!!:

i love him, and if his ending is sad i’m going to lose my mind and i’m sure if it’s tragic, grrm will write it beautifully and i’ll just cope by reading fanfiction and changing my icon to him forever in mourning. but so far, the show and a lot of theories just make me wanna die aksjdj so every time there’s a vague implication of More Bad Things happening with bran, i’m getting paranoid).

but there’s a clear conflation between bran being traumatized and bran’s abilities, at least in the beginning.

varys

he gets his own bc he’s in tyrion’s chapters all the time but i am ALWAYS wondering what is the truth and what is a lie with this man lmao. he seems sincere in thinking that robert’s bastard & the mother would have been safe but surely he would realize that when lannisters are involved, babies are fair game bc of his Ditchwater Prince, right?? did he just underestimate cersei’s cruelty or did he just not care? did he figure gendry would be more useful in the future, if he needed one of robert’s bastards to get one up over Cersei? or did he simply not act fast enough? - because we know from arya that Varys hadn’t wanted the Lannisters & Starks to start fighting as quickly as they did, so did he simply not have the time bc Joff’s cruelty & Littlefucker’s scheming took him by surprise? Or is he framing it this way because he knows if he’s just like “yeah i didn’t care about the baby dying” he knows it would offend tyrion?? TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW VARYS.

#rani liveblogs asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #anti dany #anti tyrion lannister #like vaguely.#these books are so dense akskdkd #feel free to share an opinion but if u yell at me i’ll cry #i can’t put anything under the cut on mobile so u all have to scroll past this for now #i take notes on things i find interesting there is no rhyme there is no reason. i simple note something i personally want to keep in mind as #i keep going forward. what i’m interested in changes daily

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wa-weirwood · 4 months ago

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My first read through I desperately loved Jaime in aGoT and acok. He was so cool to 15 year old me. “The things I do for love” “there are no men like me. There’s only me.” I was elated when I got to his first chapter in aSoS.

Honestly I find him more compelling without knowing he saved everyone in kings landing from being wildfire nuked by Aerys. Killing the king was a fascinating character point—was it out of altruism? Was it because his father was invading the city and he was in on it? Was he ever loyal to Aerys? Was it the right act for the wrong reasons? And then we learn he made the only objectively moral choice that could be made in that scenario.

I still love Jaime, and I recognize the complexity of the character outside of my initial 15 year old reaction of he’s so cool, but I can’t help but feel like the more interesting parts of his “redemption” are glossed over in service of exploring his relationship with Cersei.

Jaime never truly reckons with his responsibility in instigating the war of 5 kings, never thinks he’s wrong for causing a massive succession crisis, never really feels guilt or disavows the terrible things house Lannister has done in the war. His arc is not about moral redemption—it’s about him leaving a toxic relationship and redefining his individual identity, and that’s pretty much it. Which is fine!

Jaime is still a villain. In his mind, his private knowledge that he alone saved the whole city from certain death takes precedence over any wrongdoing he has ever done. He relies on this act constantly to wash away any sort guilt for completely unrelated actions. He spent his life hated by everyone for killing Aerys when he knew it was just, but keeps that knowledge private to continually vindicate his other selfish actions.

In short, Jaime was never redeemed. Is he less of an asshole to most people in general? Sure. Has he cut out his insane toxic ex who’s also his sister? Yes! Good for him. Is he nicer to Brienne than he was when they met? Yeah! But that’s not redemption!!! Did he try to keep his vow to Catelyn? I guess so? But not really! He sent Brienne off to do it herself and washed his hand of it as soon as she left. Jaime thinks himself to be honorable, but the reason why Brynden’s critiques hit home for him is because they’re true. He does have shit for honor! Sorry! Even if Jaime doesn’t want to accept that it’s definitely true!

I love Jaime. He’s still fascinating and has some of the absolute best chapters in asoiaf. But he’s not a good guy. He’s not redeemed. He still serves his corrupt and objectively evil house. And that’s what makes rhe Stoneheart situation so compelling—will he selflessly accept her judgment? He failed to hold up his end of the deal. Will he try to atone for his sins by accepting death? By acknowledging his failure to uphold his vow and his honor? Heh. Find out next time on the winds of winter……

post redemption arc jaime stans do not get a seat at the table. if you haven't loved him since he pushed that 9 year old out a window you are nothing

#jaime lannister #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #game of thrones #got

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amuelia · 3 years ago

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An AU/spec fic setup i was thinking about... Ca 15 years after the events of asoiaf, Rickon Stark, who stayed with Osha, hears that Bran is getting married and enters the celebrations incognito to see what became of his siblings.

Pictured: Rickon Stark and Osha, Arya Stark and a friend, Sansa Stark with her husband Samwell Tarly and their daughter, Jon Snow, Bran Stark

Explanations under the cut:

Rickon Stark:

Davos finds him, but due to the chaos in the North and the various conspiracies decides that Rickon might be the happiest staying with Osha for now. While Osha offers to reunite him with his family, he has a grudge due to feeling abandoned and kept his distance for years.

His wolf’s name, Shaggydog, reflects this, as Rickon’s story takes an undramatic end despite him being technically very important to the Northern succession story as one of Ned’s trueborn sons.

Arya Stark:

Became a traveller and boat captain. Throughout the story, we see that she has an easy time making friends and learning languages, and has an open mind and willingness to become friends with people from all walks of life, which fits a captain as she would have a tightknit relationship with her crew. Arya has also shown that she dislikes the stereotypical expectations for a courtly lady and does not envision herself in this path of life; Boats in asoiaf on the other hand have been home to a number of gender-nonconforming women such as Elissa Farman and Asha Greyjoy.

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon." - Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa."- Eddard V, aGoT

Her wolf’s name, Nymeria, reflects this, as the historical Nymeria has been famous for her ten thousand ships. She was also a queen, and per a Theon chapter “every captain was a king aboard his own ship”.

Sansa Stark:

Always desired to be a lady, and has shown to be adept at the expectations of the court and working and interacting with other nobility. Samwell as her husband shares her love of songs and stories, is the heir of a southern castle which is the style of court she loves, and would treat her kindly and gently. Sansa’s story deals with themes of how appearances do not reflect character, and while Samwell does not look the stereotypical prince, he has a wonderful character and showed feats of bravery against all odds.

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me." - Sansa III, aGoT

Her wolf’s name, Lady, reflects this endgame.

While Sam is currently at the citadel, i feel he will not end his life devoted to celibacy; While technically being against his father’s wishes, being a maester still plays into the idea of Sam not being deserving of Horn Hill and not continuing the Tarly line. Randyll’s toxic masculinity is not the be all end all of how a lord can be, and i like the idea of Samwell returning to his home after Randyll’s death with all his new experiences and living his best life. I see the wall as broken down by the end of the books, so there is no use for Sam to be a maester there. Gilly fell in love with Sam who showed her kindness from a heavily abusive home life, but she might want to one day return to what is left of her family and siblings and try to build a better life. Sam as lord of Horn Hill would send supplies to Jon’s projects and help out Gilly however he can.

Jon Snow:

Resurrected after his assassination, he has stopped aging, and lives his life trying his best helping relations around the former wall. “Kill the boy and let the man be born.”, Jon is told, an advice that appears to have a toxic effect on him (he thinks of it when he decides to pursue Ramsay); in the end, his traitors kill the boy, yet a man is never born as he will never grow up. The conditions and biological effects of his resurrection make him a living embodiment of the nights watch vows; a bittersweet fate.

His wolf’s name, Ghost, reflects this; as Jon himself now resembles a Ghost, forever reflecting the look of his death, wandering around with the purpose that his life once had.

“An albino,” Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. “This one will die even faster than the others.”

Jon Snow gave his father’s ward a long, chilling look. “I think not, Greyjoy,” he said.“This one belongs to me.” - Bran I, aGoT

Bran Stark:

As Robb Stark’s heir, he has become the new King in the North. Since Robb was the king of the Riverlands as well, Bran might have his seat at the isle of faces in the god’s eye, a location that has often been speculated about; otherwise, he would have his seat at Winterfell. Bran in aCoK has shown good potential as a ruler and handled things as well as his young age allowed. While Bloodraven acts as a teacher to him, his fate as a tree-bound seer appears to be the worst case scenario and a fate that Bran would avoid. Grrm’s works appear to celebrate life and humanity, and Bran as the first main PoV will likely choose this path over a life of slow dehumanization. While treated as Robb’s future bannerman, Bran‘s first chapter (which starts the entire series) shows a strong preparation for his role as a ruler.

His Wolf’s name, Summer, reflects this dream of spring ushered by a new King.

The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer. - Bran I, aGoT

Obviously these are all just speculations as well as things that i think would be fun for the purpose of this scenario :) Feel free to disagree!

#asoiaf #rickon stark #osha #arya stark #sansa stark #samwell tarly #jon snow #bran stark #brandon stark

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sayruq · 3 years ago

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Do you think Ned Stark ever realized how bad of a man Robert was? I know he condemns SOME of Robert's actions but it always seems to me that he never takes his King's actions as indicative of his character. He said nothing to Robert about hitting Cersei, his anger at what happened with Lady was lacking, he reconciled with him and Jon Arryn after Robert condoned a horrific war crime-Could he have ever realized how bad of a person Robert was in some weird alternate universe?

let me ramble lol

he did. a lot of the tension in ned's chapters is that he is struggling not to relive traumatic moments and robert's 'change' is making that hard for ned. they were brothers, they went to war together, they mourned lyanna together, they went to war together again. there's a lot of history and while a lot of it was painful, ned thought, despite growing evidence before tywin's 'gift', that robert was a good man. or at least ned made himself believe that. the thing about suppressing memories and feelings in order to be at peace with someone is that you have know why you're doing that even if you don't acknowledge it.

ned's life went to hell because of aerys, robert winning was supposed to set things right but immediately that illusion is shattered when robert looked down on the corpses of 2 babies and a woman who had done nothing wrong and more than condoned it, he defended it. he married into the family that did it. ned fought him but they reconciled- imo 50% because of jon and 50% because of ned's long friendship with robert.

i actually think that ned didn't stay in the north just to protect jon and because of his traumas, i think he was hiding away from the reality of who robert was. like sansa, who never sought joffrey out after lady's death despite their betrothal and the fact that they now live in the same castle instead of different camps, ned didn't seek robert out. he didn't visit him, robert didn't come to the north, and we can tell who is the one holding back between the two of them. people characterise ned's arc in agot as him realising just how badly things have gotten with robert as king and i used to think that too. now i think it's all about ned being forced to confront the truths he realised 15 years earlier and pushed aside.

BUT i also think that because ned is a man and robert's violence is often directed at women, he doesn't see robert as the lost cause that he is. ned loves robert. despite the babies laid at the foot of the throne, despite ned having to hide his nephew's existence, ned loves robert. he loves him enough to constantly give him chance after chance to prove himself. however there's also jon arryn's murder. would ned have forced himself to remain in king's landing without that hanging over his head? personally i think jon's death has the same function as sansa's betrothal.

ned and sansa are trapped in a situation where leaving is not easy. they're trapped with two violent people they're meant to love and serve. sansa actually ignored joffrey or didn't think about him unless they interacted. she feared and hated him until he was close by and she was reminded of why she's in king's landing so she clumsily rewrites events in her head and tries to cast joffrey as the perfect prince. it doesn't work well- she thinks about how he likes killing, she nearly forgets her betrothal when she was arguing with ned, she went to cersei for king's landing, not joffrey. while being interrogated she keeps saying she loves joffrey and its paired with heightened fear.

ned reacts in a similar way except that he's much older and therefore is constantly forced to confront robert's frankly evil acts. he sees robert hit cersei, he goes to a brothel where robert impregnated a child, he witnesses robert ordering dany's assassination, robert admits to hitting joffrey. everything wrong that robert does, he either does it in front of ned or tells him about it. the way ned moves past some of these things is partly due to misogyny, partly due to jon arryn's death, and partly due to his love for robert, and a lot of suppression.

how do you condemn someone you love? when robert ordered dany's assassination, it hit too close to home and it also was a different kind of crime compared to domestic violence and impregnating a child. that argument is ugly and a good reason why ned rarely ever disagreed with robert like that. condemning jaime is easier because ned has no emotional attachment to him. robert is practically the only other brother ned has left.

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

with sansa, she barely spent time with joffrey before his true colours came out and her direwolf died. ned had many years of friendship with robert. it was far easier for sansa to hate joffrey than it is for ned. this is the core conflict of ned's chapters- not the murder mystery or even the starks vs lannister set up. it's robert.

i also think like sansa, ned was heading to a point of cutting ties with robert.

For a moment Robert did not seem to understand what Ned was saying. Defiance was not a dish he tasted often. Slowly his face changed as comprehension came.

"I wish him every success." Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office. He laid it on the table in front of the king, saddened by the memory of the man who had pinned it on him, the friend he had loved. "I thought you a better man than this, Robert. I thought we had made a nobler king." Robert's face was purple. "Out," he croaked, choking on his rage. "Out, damn you, I'm done with you. What are you waiting for? Go, run back to Winterfell. And make certain I never look on your face again, or I swear, I'll have your head on a spike!"

its kind of interesting how the circumstances keep ned in king's landing and around robert even as ned's getting closer to truly leaving him behind. meanwhile sansa does get to leave joffrey behind very quickly. everything ned gets close to doing, his daughter ends up doing it.

#Anonymous #ned stark #anti robert baratheon #Sansa Stark #asoiaf meta #song of ice and fire #long post

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stromuprisahat · 27 days ago

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The green knight laughed again. “Barristan the Old, you mean. Don’t flatter him too sweetly, child, he thinks overmuch of himself already.” He smiled at her. “Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand’s daughter.” Joffrey stiffened beside her. “Have a care how you address my betrothed.” “I can answer,” Sansa said quickly, to quell her prince’s anger. She smiled at the green knight. “Your helmet bears golden antlers, my lord. The stag is the sigil of the royal House. King Robert has two brothers. By your extreme youth, you can only be Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End and councillor to the king, and so I name you.” Ser Barristan chuckled. “By his extreme youth, he can only be a prancing jackanapes, and so I name him.” There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself. The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable …

A Game of Thrones- Chapter 15 (George R. R. Martin)

As soon as she learns backstabbing, Sansa will make a splendid diplomat.

#ASoIaF #AGoT Chapter 15 #Sansa Stark #Renly Baratheon #Joffrey Baratheon #POV: Sansa #valyrianscrolls #MU rereads ASoIaF #A Game of Thrones #GRRM #V #books #quotes

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the-king-andthe-lionheart · 3 years ago

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The Fundamentals of Gendrya

So I just want to establish the possible foreshadowing Arya and Gendry have that hints at a possible romantic relationship in the future, as well as the romantic undertones present in their story. I’m not really going to focus on symbolism in this meta (although it will come up a couple of times in a minor way), as that will be a focus for future meta. This is only meant to establish the fundamental basics.

First I want to say that when I’m talking about the romantic possibility of Gendrya, I mean future Gendrya, as in once Arya is older. However I will posit and say that because we are viewing this in the world of Westeros (in a pseudo Medieval world that GRRM exaggerated and sensationalized from real Medieval sources as well as rumor) and because GRRM has established he has no problems with placing his younger characters in romantic or sexual situations (see Mercy TWOW) I think it would be remiss to think GRRM would not take Arya and Gendry here if that was his plan all along. After all, there is plenty of precedent.

This also leads me to remind everyone that Gendry is not an adult when he meets Arya, and the age gap between the two is one of the least egregious age gaps in the books as most of the age gaps are between adult men in their 20’s and 30’s with 12-16 year old girl’s. I think a lot of people think of the age gap as Arya being 9 the whole time and Gendry being 16, but this is in fact wrong. According to the timeline, Arya and Gendry meet at the beginning of 299 AC, right around Arya’s 10th birthday. In 299 AC Gendry was only 13/14 years old. He was born in 284 AC and is not the same age as Robb and Jon, like Ned surmises. Gendry is just big for his age, and it’s highly likely Gendry doesn’t even know how old he is. When Arya and Gendry separate in ASOS Arya is almost 11 while Gendry is 14/15 years old.

Regardless, this is fiction, and doesn’t reflect real world morals. So what I’m getting at is that if anyone disagrees with this meta because of their ages I suggest you don’t read any further.

Foreshadowing

Our first hint of foreshadowing happens in Arya’s very first chapter:

She frowned down at them with dismay and glanced over to where her sister Sansa sat among the other girls. Sansa's needlework was exquisite. Everyone said so. “Sansa's work is as pretty as she is,” Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. “She has such fine, delicate hands.” When Lady Catelyn had asked about Arya, the septa had sniffed. “Arya has the hands of a blacksmith.” - Arya I AGOT

This quote is later followed up with:

[...] “I ruined that gown Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don't sew so good.” She chewed her lip. “I don't sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands.”

Gendry hooted. “Those soft little things,” he called out. “You couldn't even hold a hammer.” - Arya VII ASOS

In the same book Lem Lemoncloak says this to Gendry:

“You must be a lackwit, boy,” said Lem. “We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, except for his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate.” - Arya VII ASOS

At this point Arya is indeed a princess, but Lem also makes an obvious reference (to the audience) to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which I think we can safely say was Lyanna. The fact that Lyanna is Arya’s literary mirror, tells me we can connect Arya to Lem’s comment, not to mention the inclusion of “princess” just kind of seals the deal. We also know that Arya is the spitting image of Lyanna and Gendry the spitting image of Robert Baratheon. I think it’s worth noting also that after Acorn Hall, Lem takes it upon himself to make sure nothing untoward happens between Arya and Gendry (he thought Gendry was taking advantage of Arya after they wrestled) as he starts sleeping in between them, which is seen in Arya V ASOS when they are at The Peach. Lem saying “Don’t think it’ll be like Tom’s fool songs neither” is also interesting because at Acorn Hall we specifically get Tom singing a love song directed towards Arya and Gendry.

Speaking of Lyanna and Robert being reflections of Arya (in both appearance and personality) and Gendry (in appearance for the most part) this is said in Eddard I AGOT:

We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

Now this quote may be referring to Sansa and Joffrey, but I do think it’s foreshadowing for Gendrya and this is just a misdirect. After all, Joffrey is not Robert Baratheon’s son by blood, but Gendry is, even though he is illegitimate. To me this also sounds like a promise. When you think about it, the story truly begins at the Tourney of Harrenhal with the events that broke the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert, so it would be very cyclical for the ending to do what the beginning could not, binding a Stark and a Baratheon together in marriage.

There are also several references about Arya marrying an apprentice/blacksmith:

“[...] Or if it is marriage and children you desire, tell me, and we shall find a husband for you. Some honest apprentice boy, a rich old man, a seafarer, whatever you desire.” - Arya II AFFC

We also have a comment made by Jaime:

“Not all,” said Jaime. “Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other...” Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “...if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.” - Jaime I ADWD

Now I know what you are going to say, that Jaime is referring to Sansa possibly marrying a blacksmith or innkeep, but if it weren’t for Jaime’s thought’s in the middle towards Brienne, you’d never guess which Stark daughter he is referring to because Sansa was only just recently married as well. Also it’s Arya who is associated with a blacksmith (Gendry) and a fat-faced innkeep (Hot Pie). So while Jaime is referring to Sansa here I think we are meant to actually look at the reality behind this and reverse the foreshadowing back onto Arya, because it wasn’t Arya who was recently wed, that was Sansa. It’s also Arya who is legitimately trying to forget she was a Stark (Sansa isn’t trying to forget, she is only pretending to be Alayne to ensure her protection) and like I mentioned it’s Arya who had a blacksmith and future employee at an inn as companions for two novels. So I think it’s a foreshadowing switcheroo. And I think it’s also worth mentioning that while Jaime sent Brienne out to save Sansa, Brienne spends her whole journey almost exclusively hearing news and following leads about Arya.

There is also a reference in Brienne VII AFFC that makes mention that Arya may marry an apprentice boy:

Gendry was the closest thing to a man grown, but it was Willow shouting all the orders, as if she were a queen in her castle and the other children were no more than servants.

If she were highborn, command would come naturally to her, and deference to them. Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister's beauty. Brown hair, brown eyes, skinny...could it be? Arya Stark's hair was brown, she recalled, but Brienne was not sure about the color of her eyes. Brown and brown, was that it? Could it be that she did not die at Saltpans after all?

“One day that little girl [Willow] will make some man a frightful wife,” Ser Hyle observed. “That poor 'prentice boy [Gendry], most like.”

Willow is very obviously a Arya stand-in which makes this specific quote about Arya and Gendry, not Willow and Gendry.

Arya IV ASOS has the strongest case for future romantic Gendrya. Not only does Gendry follow after Arya and invite her to look at the forge, Gendry opens up to her about his life right before he was uprooted, and does this:

Gendry reached out with the tongs as if to pinch her face, but Arya swatted them away.

Gendry is being playful and open with Arya during most of this scene in the forge, teasing her in a manner that verges on flirting, telling her a story about his past, laughing and having fun with Arya. And then this happens:

Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. “You look different now. Like a proper little girl.”

“I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns.”

“Nice, though. A nice oak tree.” He stepped closer, and sniffed at her. “You even smell nice for a change.”

“You don't. You stink.” Arya shoved him back against the anvil and made to run, but Gendry caught her arm. She stuck a foot between his legs and tripped him, but he yanked her down with him, and they rolled across the floor of the smithy. He was very strong, but she was quicker. Every time he tried to hold her still she wiggled free and punched him. Gendry only laughed at the blows, which made her mad. He finally caught both her wrists in one hand and started to tickle her with the other, so Arya slammed her knee between his legs, and wrenched free. Both of them were covered in dirt, and one sleeve was torn on her stupid acorn dress. “I bet I don't look so nice now,” she shouted.

Gendry compliments Arya’s looks and scent, only for Arya to think he’s teasing her about her appearance due to her intense insecurity when it comes to highborn conformation (Gendry’s laugh when he first saw her didn’t help matters in her insecurity even though Gendry most likely only laughed out of being startled at her transformation). This insecurity leads Arya into getting angry and starting a wrestling match with him. This wrestling scene also directly follows Jaime and Brienne’s very sexually charged sword fight, and could also be interpreted as foreshadowing a romantic and potentially sexual relationship in the future, like theirs did, when they are older.

Now I’m not saying that I think Gendrya is going to go NC-17 in the books, but I do think it’s likely to go PG-13 by the end of ADOS, considering we have precedent that GRRM has no qualms about writing these types of things as I mentioned above, and we know Arya is going to be 12 in TWOW and may be at least 14-15 when the series ends depending on how much GRRM can spread out the timeline in the next two books. But considering the amount of stuff that needs to happen, I think the next two books will span 2-3 years before the epilogue begins.

Then there is the love song GRRM specifically wrote for Arya. A song that has only appeared in one chapter, Arya’s chapter:

“My featherbed is deep and soft,

and there I'll lay you down,

I'll dress you all in yellow silk,

and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,

and I shall be your lord.

I'll always keep you warm and safe,

and guard you with my sword.

“And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

no featherbed for me.

I'll wear a gown of golden leaves,

and bind my hair with grass,

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.”

Now we know this song is about them because when Tom O’Sevens is singing it, he winks at Arya, and later Lady Smallwood specifically says to Arya “I have no gowns of leaves”. The song specifically mentions yellow – a Baratheon color – and depicts the free spirited “Maiden of the Tree” who wants love on her own terms, which sounds like what an older, flowered version of Arya would want if she fell in love.

Romantic Undertones

Arya’s Crush

As she passed the armory, Arya heard the ring of a hammer. A deep orange glow shone through the high windows. She climbed to the roof and peeked down. Gendry was beating out a breastplate. When he worked, nothing existed for him but metal, bellows, fire. The hammer was like part of his arm. She watched the play of muscles in his chest and listened to the steel music he made. He's strong, she thought. As he took up the long-handled tongs to dip the breastplate into the quenching trough, Arya slithered through the window and leapt down to the floor beside him. - Arya IX ACOK

It’s very subtle but this paragraph tells us everything. Arya unintentionally reveals in this quote that she watches Gendry blacksmithing enough to know that the world falls away when he’s in his element. She watches the play of muscles in his back and notes how strong he is and even attaches poetic language to his work. Arya has a crush on Gendry. It’s not acknowledged and it’s likely she doesn’t understand it herself, but this seems to be the truth of it, especially with the way GRRM worded this. I don’t know how many times I’ve read a romance where the protagonist studies their love interest while watching the “play of muscles” in their back or their arms. It’s also interesting to note that Arya always mentions specifics about Gendry’s looks and notes details about him:

He blinked at her, startled. Strands of thick black hair, still wet from the bathhouse, fell across his deep blue eyes. "I'd hurt you." - Arya II ACOK

"It's me they want," Arya whispered back. His ear smelled of soap. "You be quiet." - Arya II ACOK

When she spied Gendry, his bare chest was slick with sweat, but the blue eyes under the heavy black hair had the stubborn look she remembered. - Arya VIII ACOK

"She's not alone." Gendry rode out from behind the cottage wall, and behind him Hot Pie, leading her horse. In his chainmail shirt with a sword in his hand, Gendry looked almost a man grown, and dangerous. Hot Pie looked like Hot Pie. - Arya II ASOS

Now most of these I’d normally chalk up to the author just being descriptive, but if that’s the case, why don’t we know more about Hot Pie’s looks, who Arya spent nearly a year with at the same time as Gendry? Why does she take special time out to describe Gendry so much? Honestly I think part of it is to keep reminding us that Gendry is a secret Baratheon bastard, but that doesn’t explain the first quote about Arya watching the “play of muscles” in his back and noting how strong he is. So I think it’s a combination of GRRM wanting to remind the audience that Gendry is a Baratheon and to also subtly show us that Arya has an innocent crush on him, but doesn’t know or acknowledge that this is the case out loud.

Their Mutual Jealousy

Starting after the events of Acorn Hall in Arya IV ASOS, it’s obvious that something shifts in Arya and Gendry’s relationship. One aspect is that Gendry can no longer ignore that Arya is indeed a highborn girl after seeing her for the first time dressed up as one. He knows what class differences will mean for their friendship. And another aspect, is that Gendry acknowledges that he may be romantically interested in Arya, or at least acknowledges the potential for those feelings to emerge in time. And because of this, combined with their class differences, Gendry knows that if he follows Arya to Riverrun where her mother and brother are, he would end up watching Arya grow into someone he could romantically love, only for her to be torn away from him due to an arranged marriage. Both of these aspects play a factor in why we see Gendry become more outwardly scathing towards highborns in the chapters following this and why his behavior seems to become one rife with jealousy.

In Arya V ASOS the Brotherhood Without Banners travel to The Peach and both of the above aspects I spoke of are present in this chapter:

"You don't even know what a brothel is."

"I do so," she insisted. "It's like an inn, with girls."

He was turning red again. "What are you doing here, then?" he demanded. "A brothel's no fit place for no bloody highborn lady, everybody knows that."

And when Gendry protects Arya from a pervert by saying that she’s his sister, this is what goes down:

"Why did you say that?" Arya hopped to her feet. "You're not my brother."

"That's right," he said angrily. "I'm too bloody lowborn to be kin to m'lady high."

Arya was taken aback by the fury in his voice. "That's not the way I meant it."

"Yes it is." He sat down on the bench, cradling a cup of wine between his hands. "Go away. I want to drink this wine in peace. Then maybe I'll go find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her."

Arya doesn’t really understand the intentions of the pervert, despite knowing of sex, and is confused on why Gendry would say that he’s her brother, but when she asks him, he takes it the wrong way since he is already so sensitive about their class differences at this point in their story. That last paragraph is what makes this exchange really interesting though. Why would Gendry say this, when it’s already made clear and established in this chapter that Gendry has no intentions of sleeping with any of the girls, even when it’s offered to him for free? He is very obviously lying to try to get a rise out of Arya and the only way this makes sense is if we put it under a romantic lens.

Then we have this:

Arya whirled and left him there. A stupid bullheaded bastard boy, that's all he is. He could ring all the bells he wanted, it was nothing to her.

Now considering Arya’s defense mechanism (the mechanism that has her calling things or people stupid when she’s hurt or feeling inadequate by them to try to make the pain and hurt not seem so severe) the fact that she calls Gendry a “stupid bullheaded bastard boy” and proclaims Gendry ringing the bells of any girl was “nothing to her” tells us that it matters to her and that she’s upset. This is further reiterated in Arya VIII ASOS:

Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. "My father had honor," she said angrily. "And we weren't talking to you anyway. Why don't you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl's stupid bells?"

So here we have Arya mention this three chapters later, likely weeks if not months later. If Arya didn’t care about Gendry ringing “all the bells he wanted” then why is she still so hurt and jealous? She’s obviously been stewing about this for a while.

In this same chapter we also see gems from Gendry that clearly proclaim that he’s still plagued about his class differences to Arya. It also clearly shows that Gendry is jealous of Edric Dayne once Arya befriends him, especially since she befriended someone highborn, like her, who just so happens to be a boy who we know has nearly the same coloring as Rhaegar Targaryen, which evokes the history repeating motif that is present in Arya’s arc of the Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert love triangle.

"You have a knife," Gendry suggested. "If your hair annoys you so much, shave your bloody head."

He doesn't like Ned. The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey. - Arya VIII ASOS

And

"My lady?" Ned looked embarrassed. "I'm Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall."

Behind them, Gendry groaned. "Lords and ladies," he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. "Ow," he said. "That hurt." He felt the skin above his eye. "What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?"

"The bad kind," said Arya, suddenly contrite.

Gendry continues to encapsulate “ours is the fury” during Arya’s whole exchange with Edric Dayne.

I do want to add that I know Gendry’s class issues have always been there, and it’s definitely been made even more apparent to him during the War of the Five Kings during his time in the wartorn Riverlands with Arya, so it’s not exactly that far-fetched that Gendry may become even more sensitive and/or bitter about it. However, this extremity of his behavior only happened after Acorn Hall where he saw Arya looking like the highborn girl she is. And while I do believe part of Gendry’s increase of bitterness about their class differences does have to do with potential romantic feelings, I also think it has to do with Gendry also coming to terms with the fact that Arya’s family is also directly responsible for the carnage they have seen and experienced (even though he doesn’t blame Arya, as she seems to be one of Gendry’s exceptions when it comes to his dislike of the nobility). If it weren’t for the blatant flirting on his behalf in the forge at Acorn Hall and the jealousy, I would honestly chalk it up to Gendry trying to reconcile his own trauma and anger regarding highborns, including Arya’s family’s sins, but alas, that is not completely the case.

Post Separation

When Arya is kidnapped by the Hound and witnesses the Red Wedding, Arya contemplates where she may go and this crosses her thoughts in a very romanticized light:

She could stay with Hot Pie, or maybe Lord Beric would find her there. Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs.

But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. - Arya XII ASOS

The fact that Arya follows this thought up with “that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream” tells us specifically what type of fantasy this is. Arya isn’t fantasizing about an adventure, she’s fantasizing about love and romance, considering those are the types of flights of fancy Sansa always loses herself in. Now Arya isn’t outright rejecting the possibility of romance here, because there is more to that second paragraph:

But that was just stupid, like something Sansa might dream. Hot Pie and Gendry had left her just as soon as they could, and Lord Beric and the outlaws only wanted to ransom her, just like the Hound. None of them wanted her around. They were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all.

She rejects the possibility because she remembers that Hot Pie and Gendry abandoned her as soon as they could, and that all the Brotherhood did was use her, according to her perspective on the matter. And her perspective is entirely skewed because of her abandonment and low self-esteem issues, as well as not fully understanding the class issues as she honestly didn’t think that bringing Hot Pie and Gendry to Riverrun and Winterfell would cause any issues with their friendships, which is understandable for a kid to think. Especially one that hadn’t been in the highborn world for the past year and a half. In fact, Medieval children in the real world and in the books, weren’t reprimanded for playing together regardless of class, usually the highborn children played with the children of those who worked and lived within the castle walls, from other lords children to stewards children to the helps children. It’s just something children did until they reached a certain age where it just wasn’t allowed anymore. So it’s only natural for this not to really factor into Arya’s plans.

When Arya is about to walk into the House of Black and White, Arya comforts her fear with a memory of Gendry:

Suddenly she was somewhere else . . . back in Harrenhal with Gendry [...] - Arya I AFFC

Which indicates that Gendry is still very much on her mind at this point. I think it really says something as well that Arya takes comfort from a memory at Harrenhal of all places. I think this indicates how much comfort she took from their friendship. I also think she doesn’t think about Gendry with the Brotherhood to take her comfort because while ASOS has the most romantic foreshadowing for them and the two shared some nice moments, it was also the start of them truly fracturing, or so her unreliable narration interpreted it as. After all, she actually thought that Gendry was making fun of her looks at Acorn Hall, and she thought Gendry didn’t want to be her friend anymore as he “abandoned her” for the Brotherhood. So while Harrenhal was awful and they had their disagreements there, Arya still felt reassured with his companionship and likely found it uncomplicated in comparison to her other problems at the time.

When we next see Gendry in Brienne VII AFFC we see a drastically different Gendry. While Gendry has always been guarded and sullen with a chip on his shoulder, with little love for the nobility, this change is drastic enough where it’s unsettling to read at first. Not only is Gendry just flat out rude in a very mean way but he is filled with rage. Gendry joined the Brotherhood because he liked how they handled justice, but under Lady Stoneheart there is no justice and he doesn’t seem to mind. His beliefs have shifted as well.

And though his eyes had been that same deep blue, Lord Renly's eyes had always been warm and welcoming, full of laughter, whereas this boy's eyes brimmed with anger and suspicion.

Septon Meribald asked if he might lead the children in a grace, ignoring the small girl crawling naked across the table. "Aye," said Willow, snatching up the crawler before she reached the porridge. So they bowed their heads together and thanked the Father and the Mother for their bounty . . . all but the black-haired boy from the forge, who crossed his arms against his chest and sat glowering as the others prayed. Brienne was not the only one to notice. When the prayer was done Septon Meribald looked across the table, and said, "Do you have no love for the gods, son?"

"Not for your gods." Gendry stood abruptly. "I have work to do." He stalked out without a bite of food.

Gendry was at his forge, bare-chested beneath his leather apron. He was beating on a sword as if he wished it were a foe [...]

What would a knight be doing working at a smithy? "You have black hair and blue eyes, and you were born in the shadow of the Red Keep. Has no one ever remarked upon your face?"

"What's wrong with my face? It's not as ugly as yours."

Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . . except . . .

While some people chalk up Gendry’s behavior as a result of trauma about what he experienced in the Riverlands, and I don’t deny that is a factor, I don’t believe it’s the only factor because we didn’t see Gendry like this post Harrenhal or even with the Brotherhood in ASOS. Yes he embodied “ours is the fury” at times and was jealous and bitter, and rude at times as well, but he wasn’t flat out cruel to people, nor filled with rage and vengeance. The Gendry before Arya was taken would never have led Brienne to Lady Stoneheart for the slaughter after she tried to save everyone in that Inn against Rorge and Biter and co. We can also see another difference in Gendry:

Lightning cracked to the south as the riders swung down off their horses. For half a heartbeat darkness turned to day. An axe gleamed silvery blue, light shimmered off mail and plate, and beneath the dark hood of the lead rider Brienne glimpsed an iron snout and rows of steel teeth, snarling.

Gendry saw it too. "Him."

While there is no emphasis on the “him” when Gendry sees the Hound’s helm, it’s an abrupt and emotionless statement. It’s one word without emphasis but it conveys a lot. Gendry recognizes the Hound’s helm and it’s apparent he’s not happy, thinking that it was indeed the Hound for a minute. And while I’m trying to avoid discussing symbolism, I just can’t ignore how the lightning that cracked in the south could also be symbolic of Gendry’s true mood. He is, after all, a bastard Baratheon, connected to the storm, the fury - thunder and lightning - as well as sharing a connection to the god, Thor in our mythology. This lightning could symbolically be linked to Gendry’s anger and vengeance. So why does Gendry act like this when he sees who he thinks is the Hound again? He had no issue with the Hound during his trial by combat, so what changed? The Hound kidnapped Arya. And while he knows Arya didn’t die at the Red Wedding, he and the Brotherhood aren’t entirely sure if the Hound sold Arya to the Lannister’s and if she is now Arya Bolton. So it makes complete sense why he would have issues with the Hound. In fact I think a lot of this behavior we are seeing from Gendry is the direct result of the Hound kidnapping Arya and not knowing if she’s dead or being brutally raped and tortured in the North.

Why do I think this? Because this behavior began between Arya being kidnapped in ASOS and Brienne VII AFFC. Only a few to a handful of months have passed since then. This, I believe, is the inciting incident. Another reason why I believe Arya is the reason is because of what he is doing. He is staying at the Crossroads Inn, one of the last known places Arya was sighted, and he’s helping take care of orphaned children. Arya took in strays as well and cared for them, like Weasel. And considering how Gendry in ACOK wanted to leave Weasel and Hot Pie and Lommy behind, it’s interesting to see that he’s helping by taking in strays himself now, as if he thinks he may be able to atone for not saving Arya. Another reason is because the Brotherhood is actively searching for Arya as well. She is ever present on their minds. So yes, I believe part of Gendry’s change has to do with losing Arya, which goes to show how much he really cared about her. Not to mention (a tiny bit more symbolism, oopsie!), Gendry’s stay at the inn, waiting for Arya to return (I believe Gendry and the BWB are hoping that Arya is alive and will return to the inn) is a romantic aspect to the mythology of Weyland the Smith and his Swan Maiden/Valkyrie, and the aspect about the Brotherhood + Gendry searching the realm for Arya is also a romantic Cinderella motif, hence why I feel Gendry’s behavior here is supposed to have romantic subtext.

Extra: Another interesting aspect that I think foreshadows this future relationship is the meaning of Gendry’s name. Gendry is a nickname type of surname for a person who has inherited his family estates from his father-in-law, deriving its origin from the Old French word “gendre,” which meant “son-in-law.” And as we know if Arya and Gendry married when they were older, Arya wouldn’t be taking his name, but he hers, due to her higher status. So by marrying into the Stark family, he would be inheriting from his father-in-law Ned so to speak, even if it’s just inheriting the surname.

So this is everything I’ve compiled so far about Gendrya, that relies on just their foreshadowing and romantic undertones in the texts we have available but I’m positive I’ll be adding more to this list once TWOW officially releases. However, I still have a lot more to share that focuses on their symbolism and motifs throughout the story, so I’m definitely not done making Gendrya meta, far from it and I can’t wait to share it with you all!

And if anyone is interested in Arya’s and by extension Gendrya’s Cinderella motifs, you can find it at this link: A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes.

#arya stark #gendry waters #gendry baratheon #gendrya #asoiaf

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