#2009 batman era

[bitterrobin]

a TAXONOMY!verse summary

since I realized that I haven't actually given a summary or a main post about the au that actually explains the thing.

The TAXONOMY!verse (or the Flamebird-in-Gotham au) is an au that centers around Bette Kane and Damian Wayne's introduction into the 2009/2011 Batman era, where Bruce is "dead", mantles are shifted, and the entire Batfamily and Gotham goes through changes. It is entirely self-indulgent but also a genuine attempt at including characters I like into storylines that could be made better.

Bette's comic history will be acknowledged and streamlined a little as she enters Gotham and is plunged into the chaos. Damian's storyline as of the 2009 era stays mostly the same, but the background context of his life and childhood changes drastically. I'm bringing Son of the Demon back into continuity and completely scrapping/rewriting the Resurrection of Ras al Ghul storyline through dialogue, flashback and inner monologue. The bodysnatching-possession plot is still revealed to Talia and Damian though, spurring them both to separate from the League. (BTW Ras is still dead, but doesn't mean Nyssa or Dusan aren't around and plotting). I'm also taking pre-Morrison Talia al Ghul back into the fold and trying my best to re-contextualize Damian's childhood with her different characterization.

the first fic that I'm currently working on is CHIROPTERA - a Battle for the Cowl (2009) full rewrite.

While Dick still becomes Batman as in canon, it doesn't last for long as the "Battle" shifts from a city-wide disaster into a personal/philosophical slug-fest between Cassandra Cain and Jason Todd as the family splits and debates who carries the Batman mantle and who restores the city. Dick is reluctant to let anyone shoulder the burden, Tim is insistent that Gotham needs a Batman, Stephanie is trying her best to not get dragged into things but is tempted to be a vigilante again, Barbara just wants to get Gotham back into control, and the various rogues of the city are all vying for their own regime change. Basically, everyone's struggling, grieving, and like this close to punching people around them.

In the midst of this, Damian arrives in Gotham for the second time in his life. Because I'm changing Resurrection of Ras al Ghul, Damian has never met Dick Grayson before and he doesn't get any additional time with Bruce before his death. His relationships with Dick and Alfred are not going to be the same. Tim stays Robin as Damian doesn't trust Dick or Alfred enough yet to meet with them, but there's still a lot of conflict between them as Tim does not trust the kid one bit and Damian refuses to correct him.

A couple years have passed since Bette's time in LA with Beast Boy, and after another Titans West revival falls through, she decides to reconnect with her family and help out in Gotham after being informed of Bruce's death. Bette wants to prove herself in a dangerous city and rebuild her image with the side of the hero community that still doesn't acknowledge her. Damian wants a glimpse into the life of a father he never got to know, while still reeling from the betrayal of a grandfather he thought loved him and a League that's really gone off the rails and is trying to get him back.

Bette and Damian meet by accident, and Bette takes on the difficult mentorship role while Damian begrudgingly follows her around a city they're both unfamiliar with. He doesn't really get his own vigilante identity until circumstances call for his involvement with the wider batfam. Tom Bronson is also there, getting into the Gotham chaos after leaving the JSA and becoming attached to Damian and Bette. Alongside him, there will be cameos of Maxine Hunkel, Rory Regan, and Charlie Gage-Radcliffe. Charlie specifically will be getting more plot relevance as she involves herself into things, and the later parts of the au are plotted out.

Inevitably, Cass becomes Batman by the end - giving Batgirl to Stephanie (her own decision, not Bruce's). Jason goes back to Red Hood, but maybe a little changed by their struggle (not too much though, Jason works best when he's still villain-flavored). Dick reverts to Nightwing and Tim takes up as Robin by Cass's side.

CHIROPTERA is fairly simple and hopefully, won't be too long of a fic considering how short the Battle for the Cowl comics are.

Of course, the family can never not be drowning in interpersonal conflict or outside chaos, so this au will not stop at Battle for the Cowl.

I have plans for Batman and Robin 2009, Streets of Gotham, Gates of Gotham, Bruce's return and the almighty void that is Batman Inc's Leviathan arc. Oh boy, do I have thoughts about Leviathan and Damian's death.

Ending this to say that all of the other bat family/bat-related characters that aren't Bette and Damian will be getting researched.

Any characterization ideas specifically for the 2009 era would be appreciated, since I have not read every comic leading up to Final Crisis/Bruce's death.

[fancyfade]

It's always weird to see fandom interpretations of dick and damians 2009 era dynamic where dick was trying hard to step up as a parental figure when... he was literally not. Like dick didn't want to be damians dad*, damian didn't want dick to be his dad. Dicks main concerns were crushing expectations of legacy and stopping crime. He gave damian detective training and combat training, but he wasn't really trying to be a dad figure he read a lot more to me as someone who was like. If things aren't broken don't fix them. And like importantly. Dick did viewed damian as an obligation at first. He did generally not have a super high opinion of him or treat him like a regular kid. Thinking of specifically MULTIPLE INSTANCES in which damian may be in some type of danger (captured, or alone with a supervillain ,or injured) and dick is like "I'm not worried about HIM" or is just generally emotionally in something else.

Damian is often left on his own devices during the day which happens to work bc he has insane work ethic and self discipline.

*this isn't to say that one can't imagine they eventually get this dynamic, but I'm talking about canonically during Bruce is dead era

[casscainmainly]

If Cassandra was the one taking Batman's mantle back in 2009 instead of Dick, how do u think would've been her dynamic with Damian?

Honestly possibly similar to Dick? In Batman and Robin (2009), Dick wasn't like overtly praising Damian or being outwardly affectionate (until later). What Dick gave Damian was someone who didn't treat him like a prince, but also someone who stuck with him through every mistake; a steady presence during a tumultuous time. Cass could totally provide those, so the foundation of trust that flourished between Dick + Damian would probably flourish for Cass too.

Some key differences would be that Cass, I think, wouldn't feel as immediately responsible for Damian as Dick did. So the beginning would be a lot rockier, and Cass would be giving Damian the silent treatment while he follows her around and insults her. (I also think Cass wouldn't shrug the insults off as easily as Dick). Damian's decision not to kill is also fundamentally different from Cass', so she'd be uncomfortable around him, and they wouldn't have the same sort of lighthearted banter that Dick and Damian had from the beginning.

However, Damian would probably respect her more quickly than he did Dick. And Cass would be more overtly enthusiastic about his decision not to kill, and understand just how big that decision is given his upbringing. This shared understanding would bridge a lot of the cracks in Cass' ability to handle kids. If events play out the same, I think after issue #3 (when Damian fails to save Sasha and is shaken by it), Cass would understand Damian as a person more, and their relationship would improve significantly.

I think they would physically fight a lot more, though, given Cass' tendency to confront with fists. She'd win every time, which would annoy him, but add to the respect thing. This is one area where Cass, if she realises beating up Damian all the time isn't helping, might outsource to Steph.

Anyway in the ideal version of this Dick and Steph would be around to provide the emotional stability a grieving Cass wouldn't be able to give, but I do believe (because they are deeply compassionate people, and Batman and Robin), they would end up being very close.

[cluescorner]

Tim Drake has a weird fucking function

The thing about Tim that I find unique is that his life became SO MUCH WORSE after joining the heroing thing. Everybody else had a mid-to-shit life before becoming a hero/living with Bruce and mostly everybody (except Jason who LITERALLY DIED) had their life improved by being a hero/being Bruce's kid (or at least it is typically portrayed as such.

Tim had the exact opposite trajectory. His life wasn't perfect before he became Robin, but like...multi-millionaire/billionaire (canon is unclear, but he's within Gotham's upper-strata) kid with both natural intelligence + charisma and a bright future ahead of him and parents who were emotionally neglectful but nothing really beyond that (which is also a form of trauma, but all of the info we have indicates that the Drakes were no Arthur Brown or David Cain) and he still had other people he could rely on outside of them. He went to boarding school, which could be something horrible OR something amazing depending on your own thoughts/experiences. I grew up having a commute where we'd drive past a really pretty and rich af boarding school that literally everybody in our area DREAMED of going to, so to me the idea of going to boarding school sounds incredible but mileage may vary. Tim seems like the type of kid who would thrive in that though. Based on what we know in canon atm, his pre-robin life was fucking amazing.

And then he starts being the sidekick and working towards becoming Robin. His parents immediately get kidnapped and poison themselves through drinking tainted water; his mom dies and his dad is in a coma. This is not the fault of Robin, but Tim himself muses about the idea that Robin and dead parents are linked: to become Robin completely, you must lose your parents. And with how fate/destiny/canon events can operate in comics universes, maybe he isn't that far off. Once his dad wakes up, their relationship becomes strained as the man grieves the loss of his wife and realizes that his son has been doing vigilantism as a hobby. It is unclear exactly how good of a parent Jack was before the incident, but the results of Tim's involvement with the Robin mantle has definitely made things worse between father and son. Jack will also die within quick succession of 2 of Tim's best friends, his girlfriend, and his other father. He will also effectively lose like 1/2 his loved ones in the fallout of all of that mess including: his older brother, his other friends (both civilian and superhero), and the stepmother with whom he shared what I would argue is his best parent-child relationship (Dana also may have died, but it's left unclear). He has stopped pursuing higher education (the moment he even applied for college he 'died', and it seems he hasn't made another attempt since) and if he wasn’t a major focus of the media before he sure is now. He tries to quit briefly (in fact he initially was planning on quitting once someone more suited came along) and cannot bring himself to do so. Even when he does manage to get away for a while, his superhero life impacts the pre-robin life he is trying to go back to. Leaving is an impossibility, this is all there is for him now. He also isn’t allowed to make mistakes anymore, not when lives hang in the balance. The one who enforces that impossible standard the most (besides Bruce depending on who's writing) is himself. He’s got TRAUMA now and people want to hurt him constantly. He is constantly questioning his own sanity and morality and place in the world. He almost dies like every month. Tim grows colder and less grounded, he is becoming both a better and a worse version of himself at the same time. He’s saving lives in the same few issues as he’s setting up a Saw movie plot for the man who killed his father. He is haunted by the ghosts of his past and the looming figure of his future. His life becomes SO MUCH FUCKING WORSE after he becomes Robin. Some of it is the fault of others, some is the fault of circumstance, and some of it is due to his own actions. But basically all of Tim's worst traumas and life-changing moments are either tied to or caused by Robin. Dick's parents would still be dead, Jason would still be living on the streets, Stephanie would still have Arthur Brown for a father and a lot of other things that deserve their own posts/IDK if they've been retconned, and Damian would still have been raised in the eco-cult where death is a constant. Those are life circumstances that occur without the involvement of Robin, the only one who even needs Bruce involved at all in their series of events is Damian. But Tim? All of what is considered his 'worst' moments occur after he assumes the role.

This idea is what I find the coolest and most fascinating about Tim as a character. Being a hero is usually portrayed as either an outright awesome thing or a righteous duty that one must fulfill or (maybe in a grimmer and/or more grounded story) a sacrifice to your interpersonal relationships/mental health that is made for the greater good. For Tim, being a superhero actively ruined his life (both because of the general circumstances surrounding being a kid vigilante and the choices he made as part of that role). It's never portrayed that way in canon because we need to come out of issues going 'wow being a superhero is so cool! I'm gonna buy the next issue!', but when you just look at Tim's life literally everything really bad that we know of occurred after he became Robin.

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

BABS. DICK. You're killing me!!😫🥰😫🥰

i can't.

[redstarfish-art]

Me: I wonder if fics about the Red Robin run have gotten more popular yet. Ao3: Oh you have no idea.

[martyrbat]

cavity search — dcu halloween special (2009)

(ID in alt!)

[welcometogrouchland]

Also in the replies of the Steph concept art on twitter announcing she was gonna be in a new project at DC (posted by Travis Mercer), there were at least 3 comments saying "will Tim be there?" I don't care how hard you ship timsteph I'm exploding you with my eyeballs if you do that on my girls post again

[fancyfade]

image: a screencap reading "she pummels the wall until her hands bleed. the knuckles splitting open and fingers cracking beneath the strain. The wood gives, splintering into fragments that catch in her flesh. It still doesn't hurt. Nothing hurts compared to the grief in her chest. Outside her heart, the world is still numb.

I do love 2009 era Batfam content and wish we got to see Cass there more.

However I really am curious what you mean by cass isn't capable of deprogramming Damian the way Dick is, b/c when I just re-read the comics... Dick really didn't do any deprogramming on panel?

He never explains moral codes, he spends more time dedicated to teaching detective or sparring skills when we see him teaching (in Winick and Daniel's Batman comics).

For the vast majority of their team-ups, he doesn't seem very invested in teaching Damian at all (which I don't think is negligence on his part, b/c Damian has already got a ton of Robin skills, but it's also not really a point for him being actively deprogramming Damian).

When questions of damian's field conduct do come up, Dick doesn't really appeal to any 'this is the right thing to do' logic, it's more of just 'don't do that'. Normally, if damian has to make a decision WRT life or death (Not killing Zsasz) it's when Dick is not even on panel, and Damian comes to the conclusion himself or with other people. We also see him articulate feeling bad for not rescuing Scarlet completely independently of Dick, who is like "oh that's a first" when Damian says he feels bad about her.

Like i do believe that being a superhero benefitted Damian because he had clear rules he was following (once Batman and Son is done, Damian doesn't really try to kill people randomly? the one instance he does, like dropping Hush off a building, Dick doesn't say much of anything at all in response IIRC). But I also think there's not something that specifically Dick did that no one else could, because Dick is not very invested in deprogramming Damian and often seems frustrated with him just like the other members of the Batfam. their dynamic shifts to a little more friendly and bantery after Bruce comes back and Dmaian's already articulated why he wants to be Robin and turned his back on the league fully. But that is not how it is at first. I'm pretty sure most adult superheroes who could stand being around Damian and work professionally would be able to do the same thing.

I'd argue we also see Cass doing pretty much exactly what Dick does with Damian when she's with Marque - she just stops her from killing someone and they move onto the plot, and in general that's what Dick does if Damian does try to break rules in the field, which is pretty seldom. She also successfully leads some fanboy assassins away from LoA in Batgirl 2000. In general I'm stretching to think of what Dick did that Cass couldn't?

In general I do think fandom kind of over-exaggerates dick's role in damian developing his moral code. most of it is done from his own experience, very little input from Dick and that input often is not super helpful, and he's pretty much OK with the not killing people (even if he doesn't 'get it' at first - if he disagrees he's still not actively trying to murder people) following Bruce's rules post Batman and Son.

rewriting cass to be present for batman rip and bftc and reborn adds so much more meat to chew on because at that point cass can’t be batman because right then batman means taking damian as a robin, and cass isn’t capable of deprogramming him the same way dick is. how would cass’s stringent moral code — created the moment she took a life and remaining unshakeable — be helpful to damian, who has also killed and must now embark on that journey on his own terms? how can cass grapple with losing a mantle she wants, and watch dick be crushed by the weight everyone insists he needs. cass understands exactly what she can do. she knows how to win any fight. but she cannot do this, right now

also thinking about how cass would mourn bruce. and how she cares about everyone to the point of pain

[cleromancy]

can someone draw ... any 3 robins in this configuration

[gnomewithalaptop]

Y'know, it's so funny to me when people make out like Tim Drake would keep files on how to take down his friends when Tim has explicitly said he disagrees with Batman on this:

[Young Justice (1998) #36]

Like, yes, during his Red Robin tenure he does make a Hit List full of contingency plans for known heroes. But if you go and read that, you'll notice that, while the Justice League and Damian may be on there, Tim's own friends are decidedly absent:

[Red Robin (2009) #14]

In fact, a lot of these heroes are people that have either (a) attacked Tim specifically, (b) have a track record that includes turning evil/getting mind controlled, or (c) are on the JLA (meaning Batman probably already had those files compiled and Tim just stole them).

So yeah: Tim's not down with contingency-planning for his friends. You know which one of the YJ crew DID agree with Batman though? My favorite blorbina Anita Fite, aka Empress:

[Young Justice (1998) #36]

But yeah, this contrast is honestly fascinating to me. Because while both Anita and Tim have been shown to be incredibly loyal individuals, this exchange really highlights the fact that, between the two of them, Anita is far more likely to engage in this kind of pragmatism when she thinks it's necessary to get the job done

The whole Our Worlds at War arc actually does a really good job of illustrating how both of them react to betrayal from within. It's not just the Batman Files conflict either -- I'm thinking specifically about the hallucination-based torture Granny Goodness put them through, which showed them their worst fears. Most of the team ended up having to watch their loved ones die, but what's super interesting to me is that we really only see Anita and Tim hallucinate that their loved ones blame them for their deaths:

[Young Justice (1998) #37]

Like. It's not the same as a teammate turning evil at all. But it does give us a good idea of how they'd both react when faced with a friend or teammate doing harmful things, albeit on a smaller scale. Because where Tim kind of just accepts Superboy yelling at him and moves straight into bargaining for Kon's life, Anita actually flips the script, gets angry, and defends herself against her father:

[Young Justice (1998) #37]

(she actually gets so righteously pissed off that she manages to break out of the VR simulation Granny Goodness had her trapped in, but that's another point)

But yeah, it's super interesting, because by this point, both Anita and Tim have been set up to be very similar characters. They both can be a little bit obsessive, they both have some issues with boundaries and stalking (Tim with Nightwing and Batman, Anita with Cissie), and of the team, they're both portrayed as the "normal" members (Anita does technically have mind control powers but she barely ever uses them, and in a fight, she's basically just a very good, human-level fighter)

But at the end of the day, though Batman forces Robin to put on a cool front of objectivity, Tim (at least in his pre-grief-spiral era) ultimately wants to see the best in his team. When the people he cares about screw up, he wants to give them second chances. And when that trust gets broken, his first instinct is to try to use diplomacy, or, failing that, simply remove himself from the situation (as we see at the end of the Our Worlds at War arc when he quits the team)

Anita, on the other hand, while still incredibly loyal, does not hand out that loyalty unconditionally. We see this when she tries to keep her identity secret from the YJ squad, we see it when she gets pissed in Granny Goodness's hallucination when her father blames her for her mother's death, and we see it when she later blames Secret for her perceived role in Anita's father's death

Anita also happens to sit right smack dab in the middle of the YJ morality scale; while she's generally pretty chill and willing to abide by typical superhero codes of ethics (unlike Slobo and Secret), she's also been shown to bend those rules when she believes it's necessary (as seen here when she tortures and threatens to kill a man for trying to hurt Cissie). Ultimately, what this means is, between Tim and Anita, it's honestly Anita who'd probably be the most willing to put her personal qualms aside, buckle down, and go against her loved ones if it was the only reasonable option

Anyway. This is a really long-winded way of saying I think Gun Batman's biggest nemesis should be Empress

[fancyfade]

whenever people want to act like the batfam was generally more unified or supportive of damian when he just got there (like acting like dick was very soft and always saying the right thing, ignoring when he was judgmental towards Damian or assumed the worst of him or said the wrong things, ignoring Tim's general judgmentalness and way of speaking/thinking about damian that can be dehumanizing) that's so boring.............. why would u wanna be boring......

like damian can be hard to like and a lot of the adults in his life act like he's hard to like. like he knows this! he's got a tough exterior and lashes out. you can't remove a lot the "reasons damian lashes out or doesn't feel accepted" without removing a lot of the damian-lashing-out stuff.

[fancyfade]

i forgot to add this at first but I do think part of the reason we don't see damian receive boundaries outside the field* is because at that point in canon damian is being portrayed as like disciplined ex-assassin stuff, no one really has to cajole him to do things you might usually have to cajole kids to do, like training (and it is vigilante training and not conventional schooling... IDK why they didnt do that). but we do see damian very eager to get his training done (waiting for dick at 4 in the morning for his training) and even when he has what he perceives as pointless busywork, if its related to vigilante stuff he just does it with minor griping.

*this doesnt change dick and damians dynamic, obviously its me trying to extrapolate character stuff

Okay.

I am being super, ultra cautious about how I'm wording this, but am going out on a limb here.

As someone who literally helped to care for her much younger brother (I had solo custody of him one night per week during his teens, I fed him, supervised homework, did his laundry, got him ready for school, made his lunches, all that jazz) I am just slightly familiar with what it's like to step in to be a guardian for a younger relative.

I'm reading Reborn. I'm reading basically all of Dick and Damian's appearances. I'm...not seeing a parent-child relationship here. I see mentoring and supervision, yes. I appreciated the "I was trying to have a night off" moment in Streets of Gotham. But a lot of this is just big brothering or vigilante mentor stuff.

I fully, 100% believe Dick and Damian bonded during their period together. I also believe they had a little family unit going on between Alfred, Dick and Damian. I respect people reading whatever interpretation they want to read of this material.

But from what I see on the paper? I think calling it parental is a stretch. Damian's in kincare, folks. On paper? Damian's physical needs are being provided by Alfred, his vigilante mentoring is being provided by Dick, as far as I can tell he's not even in education, and we get precious few insights into what's happening during daylight hours. (Especially, ESPECIALLY as I really have not seen Damian receive, well, boundaries outside of the field. Or consequences for his actions. Or...really, any active parenting)

Dick's looking after Damian, sure. But he's not Damian's parent.

And that's perfectly ok, not everything has to be reduced to a simple traditional nuclear family ideal.

[bitterrobin]

the mom/dadification of Dick really starts to be detrimental when people say things like "[insert parental figure] should've done more to properly reprimand/comfort [insert whump blorbo here]" Especially when it comes to the 2009 era with Tim's whole deal - its always "why didn't Dick 'parent' Damian better and do something for Tim???" and never actually analyzing why that whole idea is wrong. Dick isn't Tim's father and Dick isn't Damian's father. He's Tim's older brother first and foremost. Why does whenever Bruce die or do something shitty suddenly everyone shoves Dick into the Fatherhood role? He has responsibility as the adult in simple terms, yes, but at the time of Bruce's death in the 2009 Reborn era he was not Damian's family.

He was watching Damian because Damian at the time was an obstacle, like running around having to carry a bomb and watch it so it doesn't explode. He wasn't taking care of Damian because he cared about the kid (at first) and he told Tim that much before Tim decided to leave. He explicitly told Tim that he trusted him as an equal partner, not another kid he needed to watch out for. And whether that sentiment is wrong or not is your opinion, but theres something to said about Dick's own struggles with independence and how he was probably trying to give Tim a chance of independence that wouldn't end as badly as Dick and Bruce's schism did. It backfired in a sense, and honestly I feel regardless of whether Tim stayed as Robin or not things would still have ended shitty because they were both grieving and Tim is a teenager becoming an adult and they were not agreeing on the Bruce thing. (Even if Tim was never shown on panel telling Dick his actual ideas for Bruce being alive before he left).

Whatever idk. I just feel people forget Dick has his own serious issues and absolutely none of the Batman characters would be adept at therapy speak or actively acknowledging their own problems. Dick has his own shit to deal with, just as Tim has his own issues and Damian has issues. There's never going to be a correct solution to the very human conflict going on. You can't "I'm a good parent/sibling" your way out of it. Dick suddenly gaining self-sentience and deciding to punish Damian like a dad would change nothing. Honestly it'd make things worse, Damian has never responded well to parenting and I don't get why people think getting yelled at or put in baby jail would fix his deep-seated issues with the concept of mom/dad. Damian getting punished wouldn't fix anything. Tim staying Robin wouldn't fix anything because he was already set on leaving to search for clues on his theory.

[roseworth]

what direction do you think they should have gone in with jason? as in where should he be now in terms of people and what he's doing

i think winick had it exactly right green arrow #69-72 and batman & robin #23-25. he was a villain but he had a Method and a Purpose. and usually that purpose was just to fuck with batman. i loooove it when hes a villain and hes very clearly doing bad things, but hes not just indiscriminately killing people. hes doing it for a reason, hes still doing the same thing he was doing in utrh by controlling the drug trade, and even when hes doing the right thing hes being an asshole about it

i especially love the ga issues because jason doesnt even talk to batman but bruce KNOWS what hes doing and he knows its about him. i love the bruce & jason post-utrh dynamic where they've both pretty much said everything they have to say and neither of them is changing their position, so now jason is just starting fires to get attention. "ok bruce you dont want to talk to me? thats fine. ill just follow you to star city then psychologically torture a teenage girl then blow her up in front of you" icon! i forgive him! i think its so fun when red hood is a member of batman's rogues gallery and bruce feels bad every time he fights him but also he kinda cant stand him since he knows jason is only doing it to mess with him and its working. but also jason is a Greater Good person so he DOES end up working with the bats sometimes just because theyre also working on the good side

anyways the ideal bruce & jason dynamic to me is "the love was there and it made everything so much worse" because jason is doing everything for bruces attention because he loves him and wants him to care about him but hes not willing to budge on his own morals and neither is bruce. and bruce loves jason so he doesnt want to arrest him or put him in danger but also hes killing people and doing terrible things and bruce is batman so he feels obligated to. yk. stop him. and as much as they both love each other they do not like each other at all

in my mind jason doesnt really care about any of the other bats besides dick & babs just because he knew them before he died so hes willing to hang out with them but they Do Not want to see him. like in brothers in blood when jason goes hiiiii dick <3 lets hang out <3333 and dick is constantly suppressing the cain instinct. he never really talks to babs pre52 i think theyre interactions would be very similar in that jason goes hey babs ur so cool <33 and she says jason get the fuck away from me or im activating the bomb in your helmet <3

but also with steph even though he didnt know her pre-death,, i think he would like her. i can imagine him doing something very similar to what he did with mia, basically finding her and going "quit your vigilante career. join my emo band" but i think she would end up being a lot more receptive to it than mia was ! like im thinking batgirl 2009 era steph so she would not be on board with the idea of joining him since things were going well with team batgirl, but i also think that any interaction between the two of them in that era would go well and end with them getting along :)

as for everyone else. i dont think he would care about any of them. theyre just kinda collateral damage in his war with bruce. like he gets involved with them sometimes just because of their proximity to bruce, or like i said earlier that he works with them sometimes because he cares about the greater good so is willing to help them when necessary. also honorable mention to aoifa's headcanon that jason doesnt actually know tims name because he just does not care. thats canon to me

so yeah in conclusion: he should be a morally grey villain that does what he does either for the greater good, or to fuck with batman, or both. and he has complicated relationships with all of them bc he likes bruce dick and babs but also kinda hates all of them and they like but also hate him too. and the rest of them he doesn't really give a shit about

[vinelark]

do you have comic recs for someone who wants to get into tim and timkon? I read superman comics but your fic made me wanna know more about this character who makes me want to eat metal with how weird and scary he is (affectionate)

hello! and welcome to the “weird scary little guy who makes you want to eat metal” (or perhaps put him in a salad spinner) club

tim has many, many comics, so for the purposes of this i’ll go with some big arcs/series and then some random personal favs

a lonely place of dying (1989): aka tim’s intro, in which 13 y/o tim engages in his favorite pastime (stalking dick grayson), tries to be a family therapist, and somehow ends up in a cape and pointy boots at the end of it.

robin (1993): so much content spanning so many batman plotlines; this is just issue after issue of tim being the most 90s kid to ever 90s kid (and then 00s kid to ever 00s kid). also much of it is written by chuck dixon, who is good at being so homophobic that the characters loop right back around to being queer.

young justice (1998): for both tim and kon (and bart and cassie and the whole yj crew)! also featuring tim and kon both wearing gloves that are way too big for them. no idea what's going on there but it's kind of like when puppies have giant paws they haven't grown into yet.

red robin (2009): THE tim comic to me, partially because marcus to draws most of it (issue 6 on i believe) and the way he draws tim here is peak tim to me, and partially because tim is just balls to the wall bonkers in fucking yonkers the whole series. this spans his brucequest and damian becoming robin (and damian in this is so!! and dick is so!!) while tim takes his shaky next steps. he’s in his messy bitch era but also stuck at 17(?) so that just means he’s randomly making out with sort-of-adversaries on rooftops and thinking longingly of kon and getting fake engaged(??) to a girl he can barely ask on a first date. (it has scant few but still some good timkon moments here and there.) (and speaking of marcus to: this and this.)

a lonely place of living (detective comics) (2017): an arc in which everyone thought tim was dead but surprise! he was just stuck in a pocket dimension prison and now he has to come back and stop gun batman (again). feat. tim being wildly competent from page one. kon is, iirc, currently erased from the timeline but never fear, tim still manages to find a way to think about him.

random/short comics:

WF3: superboy & robin (1996): tim & kon solve a case together in a two-parter that is, as described by a reviewer on its league of comic geeks entry, "…a pretty fun meet cute, I mean team-up…" (basically: see above re: chuck dixon.)

knight terrors: robin (2023): a two-parter in which tim and jason are trapped in a sentient nightmare together. if you like those vibes definitely check out this fic.

nightwing (1996) #25: tim being an annoying little brother is something that can be so personal—