#(``) sansa stark . rel. arya stark

[naggascradle]

Covers for A Game of Thrones, I (Jon Snow) II (Daenerys Targaryen) III (Tyrion Lannister) IV (Catelyn Stark) V (Ned Stark) & A Clash of Kings, I (Arya Stark) II (Theon Greyjoy) III (Sansa Stark) IV (Davos Seaworth) V (Bran Stark), drawn by Ken Sugiwara for the Japanese paperback release of A Song of Ice and Fire.

[fromtheseventhhell]

"Sansa = Ned 2.0 and Arya = Catelyn 2.0" is one of those takes where you can just tell people are more attached to the aesthetic than anything. "The Stark girls are most like the parent they look least like" sounds good on paper and people run with the idea, regardless of how it actually fits into the story. A majority of the justification relies on misinterpreting all of their characters + a healthy dose of fanon. What gets me is that this is the same fandom that insists that Lyanna, only compared to Arya in the text, is equal parts Arya and Sansa but Ned and Catelyn, two fully fleshed-out and complex characters, have to be more like one girl or the other? There's just nothing in the story to justify being so adamant about these comparisons. Arya and Sansa have parallels with both of their parents but at the end of the day, they are unique characters with their own stories. I'll never understand why people want to flatten these complex characters down to their most basic tropes and fit them into restrictive boxes just for a "poetical~" comparison.

[sigilsongs-a]

(``) muse tags. JON

(``) jon snow . (tag)

[agentrouka-blog]

I love (not) how people chose to ignore Sansa’s foreshadowing of motherhood to pretend a permanent celibate like Elizabeth the First is what awaits her. Or that George is banging us in the head with legitimate heirs are important for political stability for absolutely no reason related to the North’s future.

Although she does share traits with historical Elizabeth I believe George is flipping the story around to a Yorkist (Stark) win in the War of the Roses in which Elizabeth of York (with similarities to Sansa as well) is crowned Queen. In this scenario Daenerys is a failed version of Henry Tudor. A foreigner with an invading army that brings disease and war.

I agree.

The fact that Dany is planning her hypothetical rule with complete uncertainty about who to establish as her direct heir (as she believes herself infertile) is not irrelevant in this speculation. The question of succession is made central by GRRM every time. It was central for Robb too, and his inability to answer this question satisfyingly is what led to his Will and the kerfuffle that will undoubtedly come up about it in the future.

What is literally the point of Sansa assuming the rule as first ever queen in the North - since she has living male relatives available - if she is only going to act as a placeholder for, for whom exactly? Bran's potential kids? Arya's potential kids? Jon's potential kids? Rickon's potential kids? At least some of her siblings will survive, and then people will get to fight about who takes over after her death. What's the point? Why not her own potential kids, then?

If Sansa does assume the throne in the North, yes, she'll have to make sure to pick a husband who will not try to sideline her authority or use any of their children as a tool against her, but that's not impossible. She's not Mary Queen of Scots, she's not Elizabeth Tudor. The Stark line is ancient and respected in the North and there's no religious upheaval muddying the lines of loyalty, nor a great threat of invasion from ambitious powers if she makes the wrong international alliance. The Starks are loyal to each other, and they will still be around to protect her.

For all its historical inspiration, this fantasy series is still not a copy of English history. The pack survives.

The continuity of the Stark line for eight millenia is culturally important to the North, and if nothing else, the people of the North would rightfully expect their young queen to do as her forebears successfully did, male or female: keep the line going.

[mega-ringsandthings-world]

Okay. I know the general consensus is not this, but if Catelyn had been told the truth about Jon from the get go, she would have treated him better. Relatively. Like, she wouldn't have gave him shit for being a bastard or been ice queen bitch stepmother to him, but uh. there would have been other issues. Just think about how having Catelyn aboard the hide-Jon-train would go for one second. For one second. Okay? We are talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully. And we are also talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully before the other four kids came along. Just her baby Robb and Ned and Ned's nephew. (and if you don't think that Ned saving Jon from under Robert's nose on a promise to his sister wouldn't make I-released-the- king-slayer-to-bring-back-my-daughters-Catelyn fall so hard in love with him her head is still ringing fifteen years later you are LYING to yourselves) So think mother gothel. She would have micromanaged the shit out of Jon's life and upbringing. Ned is pretty lax so as security measures go in terms of Jon, but Cat? Winterfell would get turned into FBI headquarters. Vibe checks at the door and retina scanners and Jon and Robb have a praetorian guard on their cradles. Yeah she'd be cool to Jon in public as he grows but in private she's frantically brushing his hair every night looking for whites. Holding him up to the light to check for hints of purple in his eyes. As they get older she namedrops bastard a lot but secretly actively fosters a relationship between Jon and the other kids because Catelyn-Sansa-will-be-queen-of-the-seven-kingdoms-Stark nee Tully knows about the pact of Ice and Fire and having one of the last Targs bouncing around is tickling the politician in her. That being said she institutes a book ban on Targ history and is always on Ned's ass about them playing dragons. When Arya is gets old enough she makes it a point to put her and Jon next to each other at all times. Jon getting a direwolf are goddammed holy blessing to her. When Robert's dump ass comes to visit she's having a conniption about Jon being recognized and nearly locks his ass in the crypts until he decides of his own free will to sit in the cheap seats before she blows a gasket. She hates the Wall idea because who the Fuck is going to watch this kid as well as she's been doing for the past fifteen years? WHO? If she had found out about Aemon being up there she's have blown up castle black. Jon, who has had to deal with this shit since attaining spatial awareness tries to get Benjen to let him take his night's watch vows at Winterfell's weirwood. Man wants OUT. He can't deaal with tiger mom ass no more. When he comes to visit Bran she slips and says something cryptic and weirdly affectionate and it puts his ass in a tailspin all the way to the Wall.

Like, I know people think it'd go more downhill if she knew about Jon but why? Boring. Uninspired. Booooo. Get fun with it.

[goodqueenaly]

Do you think Martin could have inserted some cadet branches of house Stark (let's say they are less than 200 years old, so they have a realistic claim to winterfell ) without making the plot too complex ?

To be clear (if horribly pedantic), GRRM did insert cadet branches of House Stark within the past 200 years of Westerosi history - branches which will undoubtedly be revealed to have quarreled over their respective claims to Winterfell. Even putting aside the (mostly) mystery of what the family tree of House Stark looked like between King-turned-Lord Torrhen and “Old Man of the North” Cregan, GRRM has very explicitly introduced multiple lines of descendants from Cregan to exacerbate succession issues in the second and third centuries AC. Whatever “The She-Wolves of Winterfell” will end up being called, this entry in the Tales of Dunk and Egg will feature “a group of formidable Stark wives, widows, mothers, and grandmothers”, described as “a lot of Stark widows struggling for power”. I very much believe that this story is going to see various female-led Stark factions sniping and vying with each other to claim leadership of House Stark - not just in the moment of crisis around the wounded Beron, but perhaps also permanently as Winterfell’s rightful heir. (Nor does this even count Ned’s great-aunt Jocelyn, married to Benedict Royce possibly in part to limit her ability to claim Winterfell but whose descendants were thought of by Catelyn as Robb’s heirs presumptive and may partly comprise the current ruling branch of House Waynwood.) 

Now, I know, the actual question on the table is about the main novels, not the plot of a Dunk and Egg novella or the history of the Starks before the current story. In that sense, no, I don’t think GRRM wanted to have multiple branches of House Stark running around (as indeed his rather disinterested comment on the possibility of Stark cousins seemed to suggest). The author’s thumb was very much on the scale to bring down House Stark, in ways that I think the presence of Stark uncles (not including missing-in-action Benjen) or cousins would almost certainly have overcomplicated. No close male-line Stark relatives means no obvious choice of regent leadership in Robb’s absence (thus leaving Bran and Rickon vulnerable); no neat alternate candidate as the Young Wolf’s stand-in heir when Robb believed his brothers had been killed (and so no reason for Sansa not to have been seized for her claim); and no other willing kinsman to whom Arya might have returned, or been returned, on her travels following her escape from King’s Landing. 

[kingsmoot]

Something I haven't seen brought up much with the ramsay vs manderly horn wood question is about Donella Hornwoods own claim to those lands. She's not a Hornwoods by blood, but by marriage, so she would only have widow's use rights (which I believe are the rights to live there and be supported). Hornwood would need to pass to the next blood claimant or revert to the crown to dispense with if one can't be found. This is why I'm especially confused as to how she can name Ramsay inheritor in a will to lands she doesn't own. (Whereas Catelyn clearly doesn't have the power to will winterfell to Arya over Jon despite being in the same position as the widowed Dowager Queen/Lady)

Instead, it's the manderlys and the bolton at odds over who owns that land, both through Donella, even though she herself doesn't seem to have actual inheritance rights to it. (As opposed to Sansa Stark, who is a blood claimant so Tyrion could legally rule winterfell through her) In any case I think the real crux of the issue, like with the forced marriage, is bigger army diplomacy. Bran mentions a bastard, but unless said bastard can raise an army or get the millitary support of a larger faction, those lands are going to the bolton or the manderlys.

I imagine there isn't a blood relative with any real millitary backing or roose and wyman wouldn't be going through all this trouble for someone who technically only has widow's use rights.

Ultimately, because armies are honestly the biggest decider of succession law in westeros (Aegon II acknowledged as king over Rhaenrya I in histories because he won the war, Maegor over Aegon the uncrowned because he won the war, even the Tyrell's claim to highgarden being a bit dodgy in terms of blood relations but backed up by the targaryen millitary power of the time etc), whether or not Donellas's marriage and contract are going to be considered valid according to history will depend on who is in power. Should the boltons be toppled, I think the new lord/lady/king/queen of the north will suddenly be hearing a lot of arguments about the legality of vows forced at sword point that no one dares take to roose bolton now.

hello anon, thank you for your thoughtful message!! the hornwood marriage and its fallout is one of my favorite subplots of the series so i'm always thrilled to talk about it.

while i agree with your final conclusion that armies are the biggest decider of succession law in westeros (i talked about this here re: lord manderly and his squatting on hornwood after donella's death), i think you're underselling donella's legal claim to hornwood as lord hornwood's widow as they apply to her lord husband.

look at lysa tully, jon arryn's widow:

agot, chapter 34, catelyn vi

you could say that lysa only has a claim to the vale because she has the men to back it. lady hornwood is alone. her son and her husband were killed, and the majority if not all of her household guard were killed as well. she is the last remnant of house hornwood.

the degree to which wives who marry into greathouses are integrated into that breathouse is variable. cat, as a notable example, calls herself a stark as often as she calls herself a tully. tyrion (and others i think) calls her a shewolf. she considers herself an outsider, a riverlander in the north, but as the series progresses and especially after ned's death she speaks about herself in her private thoughts and aloud in public as a stark of winterfell. cersei, on the other hand, would drop dead before she called herself a baratheon. and lysa falls moreso in the middle, where she is called lysa tully and after the death of her husband is often reminded of/aligned with her familial connections to house tully, but absolutely considers herself Of The Vale, even though she's spent about fourteen years in king's landing with jon serving as robert's hand. (donella, for as long as we know her, is always and by everyone referred to as lady hornwood, never donella manderly).

so one could argue that lysa tully is pointedly not an arryn, and is only holding the vale because her son is a blood claimant AND she has tully and arryn forces to support her own claim in the meantime.

but suitors are beating down lysa's door because they want the vale. and the vale would pass to them as the new head of the vale and defacto head of house arryn. i was going to use ramsay as an example but his bastard status makes this more complicated so let's pick a legitimate second son. why can't i think of anyone.

actually, let's say tyrion, since you also mentioned sansa's blood rights to winterfell.

tyrion is heir by blood to casterly rock, since jaime is a knight of the kingsguard and thus unable to inherit. let's axe that because it also makes things more complicated. jaime leaves the kingsguard as tywin wants him to do and he inherits casterly rock and becomes warden of the west. this leaves tyrion a second son with no blood claim to casterly rock (similar to the blackfish, who left house tully to go with lysa to the vale and serve house arryn. i didn't use him as an example because lysa's husband also being a tully would muddy the waters of an example that is already stretched pretty thin). so tyrion marries lysa tully. tyrion is now lord of the vale, stepfather to lord robert aryn. tyrion's first order of business would be siring a son on his new wife so that lord baby lannister-tully would become the new heir to the vale, trumping robert arryn's claim. all of this would come from lysa tully's claim to the vale, as the widow of jon arryn.

importantly, donella hornwood is considered an elligible marriage prospect by the men at winterfell, even if she is too old to have children.

Midday came and went. Maester Luwin sent Poxy Tym down to the kitchens, and they dined in the solar on cheese, capons, and brown oatbread. While tearing apart a bird with fat fingers, Lord Wyman made polite inquiry after Lady Hornwood, who was a cousin of his. “She was born a Manderly, you know. Perhaps, when her grief has run its course, she would like to be a Manderly again, eh?” He took a bite from a wing, and smiled broadly. “As it happens, I am a widower these past eight years. Past time I took another wife, don’t you agree, my lords? A man does get lonely.” Tossing the bones aside, he reached for a leg. “Or if the lady fancies a younger lad, well, my son Wendel is unwed as well. He is off south guarding Lady Catelyn, but no doubt he will wish to take a bride on his return. A valiant boy, and jolly. Just the man to teach her to laugh again, eh?” He wiped a bit of grease off his chin with the sleeve of his tunic.

acok, chapter 16, bran ii

here we see lord manderly scheming to get the hornwood lands by marriage, for either himself or his son

Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights, but Ser Rodrik only said, “He may look, but should he do more I promise you there will be dire retribution. You will be safe enough, my lady … though perhaps in time, when your grief is passed, you may find it prudent to wed again.”

“I am past my childbearing years, what beauty I had long fled,” she replied with a tired half smile, “yet men come sniffing after me as they never did when I was a maid.”

“You do not look favorably on these suitors?” asked Luwin.

“I shall wed again if His Grace commands it,” Lady Hornwood replied, “but Mors Crowfood is a drunken brute, and older than my father. As for my noble cousin of Manderly, my lord’s bed is not large enough to hold one of his majesty, and I am surely too small and frail to lie beneath him.”

Bran knew that men slept on top of women when they shared a bed. Sleeping under Lord Manderly would be like sleeping under a fallen horse, he imagined. Ser Rodrik gave the widow a sympathetic nod. “You will have other suitors, my lady. We shall try and find you a prospect more to your taste.”

“Perhaps you need not look very far, ser.” After she had taken her leave, Maester Luwin smiled. “Ser Rodrik, I do believe my lady fancies you.” Ser Rodrik cleared his throat and looked uncomfortable.

acok, chapter 26, bran ii

and here we see donella both acknowledging her many suitors and flirting with ser rodrik (cute!!!)

immediately after this though we get a more pragmatic breakdown of why donella's dead husband and son cause issues politically:

“She was very sad,” said Bran.

Ser Rodrik nodded. “Sad and gentle, and not at all uncomely for a woman of her years, for all her modesty. Yet a danger to the peace of your brother’s realm nonetheless.”

“Her?” Bran said, astonished. Maester Luwin answered. “With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys’s bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance.”

Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. “In such cases, her liege lord must find her a suitable match.”

“Why can’t you marry her?” Bran asked. “You said she was comely, and Beth would have a mother.” The old knight put a hand on Bran’s arm. “A kindly thought, my prince, but I am only a knight, and besides too old. I might hold her lands for a few years, but as soon as I died Lady Hornwood would find herself back in the same mire, and Beth’s prospects might be perilous as well.”

“Then let Lord Hornwood’s bastard be the heir,” Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon. Ser Rodrik said, “That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood’s shade as well, but I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood.”

“Still,” said Maester Luwin, “it must be considered. Lady Donella is past her fertile years, as she said herself. If not the bastard, who?”

“May I be excused?” Bran could hear the squires at their swordplay in the yard below, the ring of steel on steel.

acok, chapter 26, bran ii

so we're right back to the point where you and i totally agree. the only thing that REALLY decides inheritance rights in westeros is the point of a sword.

which wheels us back to my longstanding point (arrived at throughout my first reread and with the help of many friendly mutuals and anons who contributed to my understanding of the issue) that ramsay kidnapping donella hornwood and marrying her at swordpoint is unusual because he is an unrecognized illegitimate bastard when he does it, but is at the end of the day not that much more brutal or unheard of than any other run of the mill marriage in westeros.

so donella here is like a vector through which the hornwood lands would pass. lysa's situation with the vale is similar, though her claim to the keep and its lands is stronger because she has a living heir AND both tully and arryn forces to guard her claim.

ramsay banked on the dreadfort's forces to protect him from the ramifications of kidnapping raping and murdering a noblewoman AND to hold the hornwood lands. the dreadfort forces could do neither. but the marriage was not a total loss politically since as i have said, ramsay is the legal claimant to the hornwood lands, AND roose has an interest in holding those lands as well so he would back his claim if it came to it.

as with all things in westeros, whoever carries the biggest stick wins the day, regardless of written law or unwritten social custom.

so at the end of the day, i think donella's legal rights to hornwood are strong only insofar as they serve her new lord husband, who stands to inherit her land. which. actually reading over all this again i think it is accurate of you to say that donella only has widow's rights for as long as she does not remarry. but that is less to do with westerosi legal code (nonexistant) and more to do with hornwood having no military strength left AND their leige lords the starks being stretched too thin with the WoFK to lend their help before it's too late to do so.

donella can will her lands to her new husband ramsay because she would have functionally been doing to same thing if lord manderly or his son married her. or if ser rodrik married her. donella has claim over hornwood only insofar as she can give it to her lord husband.

[esther-dot]

[I posted a list of SEASON 6 AUS before but these are book verse]

the cold inside our bones 2k @xylodemon (just have to point out that this was posted in 2012)

The Wall is no place for a woman, but Jon looks at Sansa's gaunt cheeks and hollow eyes and knows he will not send her away.

we're a different kind of same 3k by @jonsaslove

"I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day. It has not happened yet, but it will” Or; Sansa flees the Vale. Jon retakes Winterfell. When they meet again, they are changed.

Varg-hamr/Wolf-skin 1k by @cappymightwrite

hamr: the ‘shell’ or ‘shape’ of a person — the physical body, a state that can alter. hugr: what a person really is — the absolute essence, that which can leave the hamr behind. (Or, Jon in the body of Ghost, coming across a girl in grey fleeing north, along the east side of Long Lake...)

Pearls of Water ficlet by fedonciadale

Someone wakes up in Castle Black.

Saw You In The Snow 1k by @theemberalchemist

Sansa used the last of her strength to crawl to the foot of the tree, placing her head on its roots like she would lay on her mother's lap lifetimes ago. She could die here, perhaps, in the halo and ghost of her mother's warmth. Her mind drifting to gentle hands pressing against her head, tucking her hair back, humming a sweet song Sansa knew all the words to.

tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme 1k by @hoaryoldbitch

Satin averts his eyes and all around her bodies shift and uncomfortable looks are exchanged. Something akin to fear grips her and automatically she reaches out. Ghost is right there beside her. She wraps her arms around him and buries her fingers in his fur, kissing the top of his head. A buzzing of whispers and hisses arises around her, but one man bursts into a loud and booming laugh. He's tall and burly with reddish hair and a rusty beard. "Is this the beast you've all been afraid of? The pretty little lady tamed the ferocious wolf with a touch of her hand," he snorts, before walking toward Sansa in long strides. Brienne tenses up beside her. "I'll take ye to Lord Snow, lass."

In the darkest night, a song so sweet 2k

The Lord Commander stood atop the Wall and watched as the girl in grey came riding north, her army at her back.

old timber to new fires 27k by @setnet

When Alayne Stone hears word of the marriage of Arya Stark to the Bastard of the Dreadfort, it prompts her to leave the dubious safety of the Vale and set out on a dangerous journey north to Sansa Stark's homeland and her last remaining relative. But home is not safe. Winterfell is burned and broken, the Baratheon King and the Northern Lords are fighting to influence the future of the realm, the dead are stirring... and the old gods of the North are not half gods, worshipped in wine and flowers; they require blood.

And From the Ruins 15k by @thewolvescalledmehome

After awaking, Jon Snow's sole focus is trying to get his sister back. Alayne Stone is trying to survive the Vale. After an accident, she's forced to flee.

Stay With Me 5k

As her eyes shut, probably forever, Sansa Stark thought of one last thing: Jon. Then everything went pitch black.

now we're dead roses 22k

From Ghost’s eyes, he saw a lone, grey horse racing south. On the back of the courser mounted a girl. He could hear her breaths come out in little hitches and gasps as she grasped with all her might to the reins. Ghost chased after her, sprinting fast and nimble on his feet. She was a delicate little thing. Like a breeze could throw her off the horse. Her back shook as she stifled her sobs. Ghost followed on the horse’s rear, eyes sharp on the hooded figure. She must have sensed him behind her because she turned around and suddenly-- Jon woke up with an impossible name on his tongue.

a wind with a wolf's head 13k, WIP by @branwendaughterofllyr

The cold numbed everything. From her nose, to her fingers, to the breath in her lungs, the cold froze and stiffened. Sansa shoved her cloak up around her face and tucked her free hand under her arm. The grey cloth billowed and faded into the darkening twilight as the wind tore at her. Somewhere, a wolf howled, but Sansa was not sure if it was in her mind or not. A ghost wolf, she told herself and pressed on.

Art: The Girl in Grey and Jon's Resurrection by @palominojacoby, The Girl in Grey by @jonsawilldanceanon, The Girl in Grey by @thetullystark , The Girl in Grey by @ozzy698 , The Girl in Grey by @cute-poison20102014, Jonsa Reunion by knightmarescape, Forehead Kiss by colleendoodle, Jonsa Hug by CristianaLeone, Forehead Kiss by rosenroot

PRE CANON - WESTERN - REGENCY - FAIRYTALE - LITTLE WOMEN - HOLIDAY - SEASON 6 - ANNE OF GREEN GABLES - FREE CITIES - FAIRYTALE PART II - POLITICAL MARRIAGE - SALTY TEENS

[jon-sedai]

Thinking of the most prominent succession struggles in asoiaf and realizing that a good majority of them are not even because of some evil bastard usurping their trueborn relative. Alys Karstark’s dilemma is caused by her uncle wanting to forcibly marry her and steal her birthright. Renly is Stannis’ trueborn brother and yet he declares himself king despite Stannis being older. Euron is Balon’s trueborn brother and Asha’s uncle and yet look at what he did. Littlefinger wants to use a trueborn Harry Harding to take over Sweetrobin’s rights (though not so openly). And the Dance of the Dragons was between a trueborn pair of brother and sister. And if we are to see a repeat of it, it will be between a trueborn daughter of the last Targaryen king (Dany) and a trueborn son (Aegon) of the previous crown prince.

That’s what makes the whole “Jon was a threat to Catelyn’s children” argument so frustrating because people act as if Jon was a ticking time bomb that was going to blow at any minute, purely on account of him being a bastard. When historically, we’re given much more precedent for trueborn relatives to usurp each other.

This frustrating argument arises out of two problems:

ASOIAF stans are not engaging as critically with the text as they should be. Catelyn’s historical evidence lies in the series of Blackfyre Rebellions which happened after a legitimized bastard rose up against his brother. But context is key here. Not only were there several factors that led to this fallout (e.g., Daemon being given the conqueror’s sword Blackfyre, anti-Dornish sentiment not working in Daeron’s favor, Daeron himself being a suspected bastard, Daemon’s overall popularity, etc), but people ignore Bloodraven (a BASTARD!) who supported his trueborn brother’s claim during this series of conflicts. Daemon did not rebel because all bastards are inclined to treachery and all bastards bring evil to those around them. If any bastards raised near trueborns are a threat to the trueborn’s inheritance, then why not Bittersteel? Why not Shiera? Why didn’t other Stark bastards rebel against their trueborn siblings? Several factors led to the conflict specifically between Daemon and Daeron. Instead of taking Catelyn’s filtered history at face value, we should instead recognize that Daemon was given legal basis to push for his claim (after a series of events that symbolically recognized him as the worthy and true heir) as he was now a legitimized son, and succession struggles are, more oft than not, likely to happen between recognized legitimate competing claims. And here’s the thing, Ned Stark at no point indicated that he was going to give Jon legitimacy in the North. And he never indicated that he would give it to Jon over Robb. On the contrary, everyone knew that Robb was the heir. Robb was the one being given lessons, Robb was the one helping Ned attend to visiting lords, Robb was the one who would inherit Ice, etc. By Alys’ account in ADWD, preparations were being made for Robb’s future (NOT for Jon, who was largely ignored). There was no opportunity for Jon to pose any threat to Robb or his children because Ned did not give him legitimacy and he did not allow him to gain backing with the Northern lords. Aegon IV created Daemon and his subsequent rebellion(s), but Ned Stark did not do the same with Jon. Despite Catelyn treating Jon as a walking crisis center, there’s little evidence to the effect. In fact, we might as well say that Bran or Rickon or any of Sansa’s or Arya’s sons would pose an even bigger threat to Robb’s legacy than Jon would, you know given historical precedent and all that.

Treating Jon’s mere existence as one that inherently comes with dire consequences for “le poor trueborns��� plays into bastardphobia, which is actually in world bigotry (and grrm considers Jon to be a marginalized individual on account of his bastardy). Saying that Jon is a threat to the Stark kids is saying that all bastards are threats to trueborns but like….so are the trueborns. History, actual hiatory, shows us that trueborns are a bigger threat to each other. But no one is saying “Bran is a threat to Robb’s kids” even though there is precedent. Bran is also getting a lordling’s education just as Robb is, and Bran is allowed to engage with the upper class on important occasions and gain visibility just as Robb is, and Bran is even expected to command his own castle and men (which would even give him ability to stake his claim). So why isn’t he a threat? Instead, Jon is the one who is singled out - because he’s a bastard. He’s being singled out because Catelyn said he should be singled out, despite there being little actual evidence to his supposed incoming usurpation. Which is ironic because the literal purpose of his story is to critique these bigoted views. Jon is just as honorable and good and kind as any other trueborn son, if not more so. And we have seen him sacrificing his own happiness for his siblings (e.g., the direwolf pups and refusing Winterfell because he will not usurp Sansa’s rights). It’s one thing for Catelyn to show ignorance, but we as readers should know better because we have a full picture and not only do we have an understanding of the history being cited by Catelyn (and what is being purposefully ignored), we also know Jon. So we should be saying, “wait no, there’s no indication that Jon is any more a threat than any one of Ned’s sons”.

It is understandable (but not justifiable tbh) that Catelyn is biased against Jon; he is the ever present product of her husband’s affair. But that’s just it, she’s biased. So she has a biased application of history. And she has a biased (and bigoted) view of Jon’s place in it. We as readers have a full picture though. So shouldn’t we be having more nuanced dialogue regarding this instead of taking her biased word for it?

[queen-of-andor]

I really dislike the view that Ned Stark played favourites between his daughters or that he had a bad relationship with his eldest one because it isn't supported by the text.

Sansa has fond memories of her father. Yes, she's closer with her mother but that's because a. of her interests b. it's plot relevant for Sansa be the closest kid to Catelyn considering the characters she interacts with ( her mother's relatives and Littlefinger). Ned never thinks negatively of Sansa and he never unfavorable compares her to her younger sister. Even when he talked with Arya after the Trident incident, he simply said that the sisters should support each other ( you need her as much as she needs you), he didn't pick a side between them.

Just like Sansa is closer to her mother, Arya is closer to her father and that's again is because of her interests. Arya enjoys observing him performing his lord duties, so she spends much time around him. Sansa isn't interesting in that, so she doesn't . Again, a matter of personal interests instead of one of them having a bad relationship with their father or feel neglected by him.

[15-lizards]

okay while deep diving into your oc lore, i saw that you had an oc who was "benjen's almost bastard daughter" and im terribly intrigued. (this was a while ago so no worries if she got scrapped lmao)

WAITRTT YOU JUST DUG UP A MEMORY FROM THE RECESSES OF MY BRAIN

I haven’t thought ab her in a hot minute but you just brought her back to life anon thank uouuuu

I never decided on a name but the idea was that when Brandon got killed and Ned had to go riding off to help his boyfriend fight the war, everyone decided that Benjen should get married bc no one knew if Ned was gonna live or not.

HOWEVER 👆 before they could get him married to a Karstark or Umber or something he had a fling with like a Flint girl or someone else from a relatively minor northern house. So he pulls a Robb before Robb and everyone’s like 🫥 okay whatever she isn’t our first choice but fuck it you’re the backup just get married to her.

And benjens like waitttt I really wanted to go to the wall to freeze my balls off with a bunch of other men :(((( but does his Stark Duty and marries the girl and the rest of the war goes on and baby is born. However a few weeks later the mother dies of post partum complications and Benjens like I would’ve made a bad father anyways and fucks off to the wall

Ned’s like sorry ab that I can take the baby I already have one adopted child. And the family is like ur bum brother got our daughter pregnant then left the baby here when she died the least you could do is let us keep her. And Ned says Yeah no argument there

And so the girl is raised mostly by her mother’s family but is still allowed to go to Winterfell relatively frequently to establish cousin-ly bonds and what not. And even as a treat every now and then she’s allowed to visit the wall to see her dad

I imagine she’s kind of sickly and awkward and kind of annoying but also really friendly. Overly eager to please and make friends (trying to make up from her lack of parental love yk how it is). She’s not a stubborn hardhead in the traditional northern way but in a “if I keep being nice to this person they’ll like me eventually” way like she absolutely refuses to give up on any task she puts her mind to. She’s so pathetic I care for her.

Also Sansa thinks she’s annoying and Arya thinks she’s weak and annoying. The only family members who actually like her are Bran and Rickon she is soooo friendless

[horizon-verizon]

Wills do in fact exist in the world of Westeros. And more specifically they’ve been plot points in regards to chosen heirs. Robb Stark has an entire debate with Catelyn about choosing his heir. Sansa is ostensibly his heir with Bran and Rickon considered deceased. And yet Robb and Catelyn believe they can skip over Sansa by naming another heir. Why would they believe this possible if there isn’t precedent for a King choosing his heirs ?

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.” 

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it might have been a Templeton, but...”

“Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

We also know that even lords can also seemingly choose their heirs and even have stipulations for those heirs. Why ? Because it’s actually a plot point in The Sworn Sword. Rohanne Webber (Tywin Lannister’s paternal grandmother) is her father’s named heir but there’s a stipulation, she has to be married or she will lose her rights to inheritance and it will instead go to her cousin Wendell Webber:

“Her lord father’s will demands it. Lord Wyman wanted grandsons to carry on his line. When he sickened he tried to wed her to the Longinch, so he might die knowing that she had a strong man to protect her, but Rohanne refused to have him. His lordship took his vengeance in his will. If she remains unwed on the second anniversary of her father’s passing, Coldmoat and its lands pass to his cousin Wendell.”

How is that a possible stipulation that Rohanne takes extremely seriously if not for the fact that inheritance is not clear cut and can be overridden by a will ? And this evidences further that a Lord or King can choose their own heirs.

Maegor disinherited Jaehaerys and made Rhaena’s daughter, Aerea, his heir.

Jaehaerys went against Andal inheritance tradition to pick Baelon over Rhaenys.

The lords at the Great Council doubled down on that decision by picking Viserys over Laenor which Jaehaerys upheld.

Aegon III’s regents pick Rhaena as his heir over Baela, despite the fact that Baela is the elder twin, because she’s too willful and wild and won’t accept a marriage pact they made for her.

Jeyne Arryn picks a distant cousin to be her heir instead of a closer relative with more traditional claim, the King’s regents back her decision.

Aerys II picked Viserys to be his heir when Rhaegar’s son Aegon was the traditional choice.

Doran Martell planned to make his son Quentyn his heir because he wanted his daughter Arianna to be queen conosrt of the Seven Kingdoms, she doesn’t know this and just assumes he’s pick Quentyn over her.

Walder Frey talks about picking his unborn son as his heir over his dozen or so adult sons.

Rodrick Harlaw offers to make Asha his heir to stop her from participating in the Kingsmoot.

Stannis offered to make Renly his heir instead of Shireen.

You will love this video by the former ozymalek, anon (now they are Youtube and Tiktok's "PhoenixAshes"). It basically speaks of exactly what you emphasize for Westeros--how heir voluntary designation was a real thing in real medieval Europe.

[sigilsongs-a]

(``) muse tags. SANSA

(``) sansa stark . (tag)

[agentrouka-blog]

Super long ask, I hope this is okay to share with you. I've been reading through your speculation tags and so many other Jonsa blogs and everything just CLICKS.

I think George wasnt lying when he said the show end point is more or less how the books will end too. I really do think it will be as close to that as it can get, with how much GOT cut out/changed. Arya sailing, Bran and Sansa as Summer King and QITN, Cersei and Daenerys dead and Jon ending up far North is pretty much guaranteed to happen. It's just going to be set up very differently. Based on the theories, metas and speculations you have posted and reblogged, and the foreshadowing istumpysk highlighted in the reread project, I tried summarising what would likely happen in TWOW and ADOS.

Vale arc: Tourney starts, Brienne arrives and - similar to the tavern scene in the show - tries to get Alayne to leave with her but she refuses, Sansa (infamously) vows to become SS again and take back the North - which I feel like will be either because of her finding out about Jeyne/Arya or maybe something happening to Sweetrobin (he'll survive though), she'll then actively try to escape from LF. I think the Tourney will span several days and Harry dies relatively early, Shadrich tries something and Brienne possibly duels him, then the mountain clans attack and Sansa tries to negotiate w/ them/offer food, something goes wrong and she'll escape to the Wall with Brienne.

Stannis burns Shireen, possibly gets murdered by one of the Seaworths?

Because of his warging Jon doesn't really die, his body gets stored in the ice cells, he'll be "resurrected" (i'm unsure how), and he'll struggle with feeling and behaving like a human again. Him and Sansa reunite (I will die on the hill that the show got that thing right and they will be the first Starks to reunite), (possible Jonsa but they wont act out on feelings), and maybe also take back Winterfell w/ the Knights of the Vale (unpopular opinion apparently. But I think it would suck if Stannis were the one to take Winterfell).

Arya leaves the faceless men, meets Lady Stoneheart, possibly (😭) kills her, Nymeria (and Brynden?) free Edmure and Jeyne Westerling. I think, similar to Jon and Sansa being the mist distant Starks but the first Starks to reunite, it would be so interesting if the least Tully looking Starkling was the one who ends up reuniting with the Tully uncles.

Howland Reed and Robb's will arrive at WF, with Jon having to choose between being legitimised as a Stark but stealing his cousins' claim or having his true parentage be revealed

Cersei somehow gets rid of the faith. Tommen is foreshadowed to fall to his death and Myrcella likely dies as a consequence of the Dorne storyline. The Sand Snakes infiltrate Cersei's council.

The Greyjoys ally with Daenerys, Daenerys marries Euron?, kills Victarion? Victarion possibly dies because of that horn?

Aegon takes over Kings Landing, allies with the Riverlands, the Reach, Dorne (possibly marries Arianne?), + Golden Company

Cersei flees to Casterly Rock, Cersei as YMBQ, Jaime as Valonqar

Daenerys arrives, starts Dance 2.0 with Aegon, Aegon takes out or possibly claims one dragon, Tyrion ping pongs between both sides

Arya and Sansa are likely to be in conflict with one another at first (the letter Sansa wrote to Catelyn will likely be used - why else have Robb specificallypoint iut that he left it at home?), and perhaps the show was also right when it had them team up to take out LF (giant in a castle made of snow)

Jon goes South, possibly bonds with Aegon only to see him be taken out by their aunt, Daenerys burns down KL, Arya possibly takes out Daenerys

Bran makes some sort of deal to get rid of the Others, gives up his "powers" to atone for the actions of his ancestors, gets elected King by a council, takes ancestral seat in Harrenhaal

Arianne rules (a possibly independent?) Dorne, Asha as ruler of Iron Islands or whatever is left of its people/possibly displaced and being given land in the North?, Sansa as Lady/QITN, Jon as Lord of the Gift, Jonsa possibly left open ended, Arya sails across the world, Arya and or Brienne as independent agent(s) helping out people in need, Rickon dead (... or Bran's heir... or Septon or Maester...).

Tyrion either: Lannister heir (maybe? with his tongue cut out?) or sent to the Wall. Probably the former.

Like I said, this would definitely be in line with the show ending but unlike the show, here the characters actually would have full arcs and it would be bittersweet rather than just bitter. The dance 2.0 won't be a Jonerys romance and instead will mirror the conflict between Aegon and Rhaenyra, and Daenerys's arc will be tragic and fascinating and her death will be a mirror to Maegor and a direct consequence of what she does to the Smallfolk. All the Starklings (well.... we'll see about Rickon) are left alive, with important and fulfilling but challenging roles. They're all separated but they can and likely will reunite. All the big houses will be ruled by illegitimate children, women, and people with disabilities. No more ice threat and no more fire threat and largely no more real magic. No curtain of light, no YA team up, and a somewhat happy and satisfying and realistic end that includes an actually change to the status quo. It just makes so much sense!!! It feels so right!!!

Hi there! And sorry for the delay!

Isn't it SO satisfying when the books suddenly take on this coherent, stringent logic, all because of what jonsa represents? :)

I broadly agree with your predictions and timeline. I'm more of a jonsa optimist and truther, but otherwise... yeah, it just makes sense, doesn't it?

[syndrossi]

So instead of Dany or Arya coming through with the twins, what about Sansa? Her trauma and overall skittishness towards men could lead to Daemon assuming the worst about what Cryane could have done to the children, plus her political knowledge how would be an interesting foil to Rhaegar. Also Jon would be Uber protective of her to make up for not being there the first time around. Sidebar, would she have red, silver or brown hair with Daemons genes thrown in the mix?

The Summerhall doorway is only interested in TPTWP candidates, so it's mostly an academic exercise when we talk about Starks tagging along, but I'm happy to do so!

Sansa's traumas are quite unique relative to Jon's, Dany's, Arya's, and Rhaegar's. I assume we'd be taking Sansa from the same point in time as Jon, so when she's being held by Littlefinger in the Vale as his "bastard daughter." What's rough about Sansa is how scarred she is. Rhaegar was born in the intrigues of the Red Keep; he has been dealing with Aerys since the beginning. He was trained in how to play the game, to guard himself, to trust few. He is a bit of a romantic, like Sansa, but was never an idealist, like she was. I think he's best equipped to understand the horror and pain she's dealt with, between the betrayals, backstabbing and Joffrey (who certain has some Aerys vibes in terms of cruelty/toying with "his" people).

So both he and Jon would provide different kinds of comfort for her. Rhaegar, she would feel, understands her. She feels safest confessing things to him, including her guilt over treating Jon like he wasn't true family. Whereas Jon is that fierce flame of protection. She almost feels like she doesn't deserve it, but she remembers that Jon has always been like that toward his family, toward Arya, and that he feels that way about her despite everything is another comfort. Jon makes her feel safe.

Sansa would hate Aegon. I think he would ping her Joffrey-dar super hard, between his entitlement and bullying behavior. Aemond she might feel a little sympathy for, perhaps seeing her own behavior in Aegon's and Jon in Aemond. Helaena is the kind of strange girl Sansa would have mistrusted and teased for not conforming to her idea of a lady, the way she did Arya, and again, that guilt and self-reflection means she approaches Helaena much more gently. Arya is gone, but here is another girl who feels that she does not belong, who is lonely, even.

Alicent would make her uncomfortable, since there's a twist of Cersei vibes to her. Larys would terrify her. Otto she would mistrust.

Daemon, meanwhile is a very different father to Ned, so there would be some adjustment there (and some resistance, given how much guilt and grief is tied up in Ned's death; that was her father, not this imposter). On the other hand, I can't think of a specific figure who harmed Sansa that Daemon would remind her of. If you're being uncharitable, maybe there's a little Cersei to him as well? But she'd be less likely to make the female-to-male comparison leap, I would wager. Rhaenys would remind her some of Olenna, so I could see her feeling a wary respect for her. Viserys doesn't have a real analog, but her experience with kings has been such that she is wary of anyone with that much power.

I have to think that Daemon would ask the boys if Crayne touched Sansa in any way, so he would know quickly whether she was traumatized in that way. But if the answer is no, then he has to conclude that she was mistreated in such a way in the Vale as to make her wary of some men.

Since Sansa's getting a smaller splash of Targaryen genes, I could see her looking more like the Royce/Stark side. Actually, it would be kinda poignant if she ended up with coloring like Arya's, matching Jon. The strangeness of looking into a mirror and seeing her sister instead. Maybe her hair is slightly lighter, just slightly redder than Arya's had been. Her eyes might be more Targaryen in hue, given her original eye color.

[goodqueenaly]

Bit of a niche question, how would noble children be socialised with their peers rather than servants and retainers? Bran of course knows the Cerwyn heir very well who is half a day away and has family at Winterfel besides and Catelyn wonders if Jeyne used to be playmates with the squires from Casterly Rock who were murdered. I assume that noble children would occasionally be brought along to big occasions but would there be less incidental ways to bind the next generation early?

The first and likely most common way is probably exactly what you mention - visits between aristocratic families. You mention the Cerwyns visiting with the Starks relatively frequently, given the physical closeness of Castle Cerwyn to Winterfell, but it’s also worth noting that Halman and Benfred Tallhart did the same, as Bran remembers during that same event. Likewise, Arya recalls visiting White Harbor twice with Lord Eddard , while Catelyn recalls visiting the Twins as a girl; neither mentions specifically meeting, say, Wylla and Wynafryd or the many children and grandchildren Walder was already accumulating even in Catelyn’s youth, but I think it would have been virtually impossible for the aristocratic in each such instance not to have met and interacted with each other. These visits not only would give the adults the chance to talk business and renew bonds of fealty or alliance, but also potentially lay the groundwork for future dynastic pairings or continuations of such alliances between their children; in turn, interactions between these children might often be in such situations specifically targeted or formalized as much as they were personal (think of, say, young Alys Karstark being paired in dances with Robb Stark, or Joffrey and Tommen practicing in the yard with Robb and Bran).

(Which is not to say these interactions would always be positive - think of, say, Sam’s visit to the Arbor in his youth, and his cruel treatment by the Redwyne twins.)

Fostering, too, provides a very natural (by Westerosi standards) means for aristocratic children to socialize with peers outside of their immediate families. The examples of fostering throughout the series (and the history of Westeros) are too numerous to list for the purposes of this ask, but it’s worth noting as a very general point that fostered children are raised as virtual siblings with the children of the household in which they stay. While it’s certainly possible for fostered children to be relatives of the families with whom they are fostered, the dynastic distinction between these children allows for early lessons in how to identify, address, and interact with members of other families, not to mention how to (potentially) build friendships - think of, say, Robert and Ned in the Eyrie, or the pro-greenlands King Harmund II Hoare. (Which, again, is far from a guarantee - think of Jaime’s linger criticism of his fellow page and squire at Crakehall, Merrett Frey.)

Nor is fostering necessarily the only way for members, specifically children, of different Westerosi aristocratic families to find themselves in or around other households. Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel were (and are) not very high-ranking aristocrats, certainly not equal to the Starks in terms of position, but as the scions of (I think) hereditary aristocratic officer families of Winterfell, Beth and especially Jeyne were seen as entirely suitable companions to the Starks, specifically Sansa. Too, if we take, say, Casterly Rock as an example, we can see a household of mixed aristocratic families (and, by extension, children): Kevan’s sons and daughter would have grown up not just with their cousin Tyrek Lannister, but also (thanks to Genna’s refusal to live away from Casterly Rock) some of their Frey cousins, “Red” Walder Frey and the grandsons of Cleos Frey - all descendants of Tytos Lannister, but from distinct branches (and, for the Freys, distinct paternal dynasties), which would strengthen those establish bonds.

Too, while not typical, it is nevertheless possible to have children brought into the household of a royal court. Magraery’s household as queen, for example, has included not just adult aristocratic Reach women but also younger girls from her homeland: not only her extended Tyrell cousins Megga, Elinor, and Alla but also little Alysanne Bulwer, children who may never have interacted with one another in their ordinary upbringings but would now have the opportunity to do so. Likewise, King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne took into their household their half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon when she was only six years old, to be raised as essentially an extra child of the royal couple within the household at King’s Landing (though of course the extent to which F&B, and by extension GRRM, ignores Jocelyn as a character never ceases to make me mad).

These are all examples rather than a finite list, of course, and it’s probably also worth noting that from an early age, aristocratic Westerosi children are prepared, through work and play, to recognize and interact with their social equals and superiors. We see from the experience of the Stark children that the study of heraldry is a key part of their education, setting them up early to recognize other families by their dynastic sigils. Too, one of aristocratic Westeros’ familiar childhood games is “come-into-my-castle”, a game which Tyrion remembers is “meant to teach [highborn children] courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes”. So from the first, highbor Westerosi children are socialized to interact with the wider (blue-blood) world around them.

Of course, it me, so I have to mention what this ask immediately made me think of from The Royal Succession, book four of The Accursed Kings:

The most surprising aspect of this dinner was the number of children present; for Eudes of Burgundy, having made it a condition of his own attendance that his niece, Jeanne of Navarre, should be present as some reparation for the outrage done her at the Assembly, the Count of Poitiers had decided to bring his three girls, the Count of Valois his latest offspring by his third marriage, the Count of Evreux his son and daughter, who were still of an age to play with dolls, the Dauphin of Viennois his little Guigues, the betrothed of the Regent’s third daughter, and the Duke of Burgundy his three children. There was continual confusion over Christian names; Blanches, Isabelles, Charleses and Philippes abounded; when someone cried ‘Jeanne!’ six heads turned together.