#asoiaf endgame

[lemonhemlock]

i get what you’re saying but i get what dany stans are saying too, what is the difference between dany taking back kl and sansa taking back winterfell? at the end of the day, monarchy sucks and none of these characters are truly "worthy"

I approached this topic more in-depth here and here.

The difference between Dany taking back King's Landing and Sansa taking back Winterfell lies in the construction of legitimacy. When engaging with medieval fantasy, rejecting its political framework and ignoring its limitations in absorbing more egalitarian ideology (and the socio-technological constraints that inform those political/philosophical limitations) is going to prove a fruitless pursuit. Westeros is roughly based on feudal Europe and has a recognizable European political thought inheritance and recognizable medieval technology and means, so I think it would be reasonable to employ political philosophy that could be plausibly applied during the period from which it takes inspiration.

~unnecessarily long essay no one asked for below~

In this regard, what makes for a "worthy" ruler in medieval times might differ with the passage of centuries, as socio-political practices transform. Which is why I feel like the validity of monarchy as a form of government was never truly under question in this setting, even though it has certainly been criticised and points have been made about social injustices arising from wealth disparities and the segregation of social spheres (I hesitate to call them social classes as I don't think the Westerosi have developed class consciousness yet).

I think that this is ultimately an element of disappointment for some readers, who are trying to project onto the text something that is not there, instead of switching to progressive fiction that addresses their concerns and presents alternative political systems. What I mean to say is that dismissing all types of monarchy as illegitimate is not useful within the text, as it renders all differences between the characters null & ignores the entire historical evolution of the concept of legitimacy. So you end up with takes like "it doesn't really matter who sits the throne". It matters very much to Martin, because that is the type of story he is trying to tell, that's... the entire point of the series. He is a boomer writing about dragons and knights in the 90s, not a transformative political thinker who is going to smack us with a new social order at the end of the series. That doesn't mean he can't critique the system or the characters' approaches to ruling. That's why he keeps killing the unfit kings & punishing those who rely on wanton brutality.

Coming back to the question, Dany's family was deposed, meaning that, legally-speaking, she doesn't have any "birthright" to the throne of Westeros anymore, no matter what she tells herself. Is deposition legal? John Locke certainly thought so in his Second Treatise of Government, chapters "Of Tyranny" and "Of The Dissolution of Government". Below we have Jean-Jacques Rousseau, "Discourse on Inequality":

OK, these are Enlightenment thinkers, but the concept was not new. The Magna Carta of 1215 certainly has a provision for this. That's medieval enough, I feel.

(Ralph V. Turner, "Magna Carta Through the Ages", Harlow, Pearson Longman, 2003 - the original article was too long lol but anyone can look it up for themselves).

Thomas Aquinas, "Summa Theologica", 1274:

etc.

You will find these ideas under the term "right of revolution".

Many medieval kings IRL have been deposed or lost their crown. Richard II, anyone? There's an entire play about it. So, yes, Robert Baratheon is the legal king of Westeros at the start of AGOT and Viserys / Daenerys simply are not. There is no birthright to speak of, that is just Dany's entitlement that goes unchecked and unquestioned.

Of course, crowns can be won back by the right of conquest, which is what Dany is trying to do. GRRM's plan for her seems to either be rejected by the people of King's Landing for whatever reason (a la Rhaenyra maybe) or for her to commit such an atrocity on the city in her attempt to seize it that it disqualifies her as a potential ruler because she breaks the normal rules of engagement to a horrifying degree (i.e. dragonflame). Dany's entire plan is questionable from the start, since she intends to mount an invasion on a people brutalised by several years of war already, on the onset of winter - essentially extra suffering. The conditions are there so that the Westerosi might not interpret her actions as liberation, but merely as another pretender to the throne, who is only after her personal betterment - basically no different from what they've seen before, so no reason to join her cause or believe in her propaganda. She will bring fire-breathing monsters, Dothraki and Unsullied warriors to their lands, whom they fear and for whom they have no kinship. They have no particular attachment to the old Targaryen kings either. In short, Dany's father was deposed and she will end up deposed herself because of her own actions (or never recognised in the first place). I'm not saying this because I have beef with Daenerys, she is not a real person who did me wrong, she is a fictional character the author is using to illustrate a political idea.

Whereas the people of the North maintain a very favourable view of the Starks and of Ned Stark in particular. They are seen as the legitimate rulers of the North and their replacements (the Boltons) are almost universally hated. The text is littered with "the North remembers" and "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and general Stark-fawning. The people of the North were very eager to name Ned Stark's son as their king. The people of the Night's Watch voted for Ned Stark's 15-year-old bastard as their leader. Ramsay Bolton pretends to marry Arya Stark to consolidate his legitimacy as the ruler of Winterfell and the North. Many other characters covet Sansa for the same reason. The Starks have not been deposed, unlike the Targaryens, they're just missing / presumed dead and Winterfell is up for grabs. None of our Northern characters think how lovely it would be if we had a Targaryen restauration. These things may seem like candy floss to the modern reader and they may not resonate, but they mattered a lot in the past. So when Sansa takes back Winterfell, it will be with the backing of the majority of the Northern population and with the help of the Knights of the Vale, who are seen as honourable and are of Andal descent, so will not be perceived as foreign invaders. No one in the North will be contemplating their right-to-revolution against the Starks, because they will be revolting alongside Sansa to free themselves from the abusive Bolton rule.

Sansa rebuilds Winterfell out of snow and thinks of it warmly as her home, feels kinship and connection with the place she grew up in, whereas Daenerys feels possessive over a land she's never seen and wants to take it with "fire and blood". True, these are not actions, not crimes for Dany and neither acts of benevolence for Sansa. They haven't done anything yet. But they are images. Framing. Hints. That's how literature works.

Could Dany be given a narrative of Westerosi restauration? Could GRRM write her as gaining popular support and as not breaking the social contract while installing herself back on the throne? Had only Book 1 been published, these questions would have had more validity. But after Book 5? Not when Martin frames her like that and literally kicks her out of the city she conquered.

[agentrouka-blog]

Super long ask, I hope this is okay to share with you. I've been reading through your speculation tags and so many other Jonsa blogs and everything just CLICKS.

I think George wasnt lying when he said the show end point is more or less how the books will end too. I really do think it will be as close to that as it can get, with how much GOT cut out/changed. Arya sailing, Bran and Sansa as Summer King and QITN, Cersei and Daenerys dead and Jon ending up far North is pretty much guaranteed to happen. It's just going to be set up very differently. Based on the theories, metas and speculations you have posted and reblogged, and the foreshadowing istumpysk highlighted in the reread project, I tried summarising what would likely happen in TWOW and ADOS.

Vale arc: Tourney starts, Brienne arrives and - similar to the tavern scene in the show - tries to get Alayne to leave with her but she refuses, Sansa (infamously) vows to become SS again and take back the North - which I feel like will be either because of her finding out about Jeyne/Arya or maybe something happening to Sweetrobin (he'll survive though), she'll then actively try to escape from LF. I think the Tourney will span several days and Harry dies relatively early, Shadrich tries something and Brienne possibly duels him, then the mountain clans attack and Sansa tries to negotiate w/ them/offer food, something goes wrong and she'll escape to the Wall with Brienne.

Stannis burns Shireen, possibly gets murdered by one of the Seaworths?

Because of his warging Jon doesn't really die, his body gets stored in the ice cells, he'll be "resurrected" (i'm unsure how), and he'll struggle with feeling and behaving like a human again. Him and Sansa reunite (I will die on the hill that the show got that thing right and they will be the first Starks to reunite), (possible Jonsa but they wont act out on feelings), and maybe also take back Winterfell w/ the Knights of the Vale (unpopular opinion apparently. But I think it would suck if Stannis were the one to take Winterfell).

Arya leaves the faceless men, meets Lady Stoneheart, possibly (😭) kills her, Nymeria (and Brynden?) free Edmure and Jeyne Westerling. I think, similar to Jon and Sansa being the mist distant Starks but the first Starks to reunite, it would be so interesting if the least Tully looking Starkling was the one who ends up reuniting with the Tully uncles.

Howland Reed and Robb's will arrive at WF, with Jon having to choose between being legitimised as a Stark but stealing his cousins' claim or having his true parentage be revealed

Cersei somehow gets rid of the faith. Tommen is foreshadowed to fall to his death and Myrcella likely dies as a consequence of the Dorne storyline. The Sand Snakes infiltrate Cersei's council.

The Greyjoys ally with Daenerys, Daenerys marries Euron?, kills Victarion? Victarion possibly dies because of that horn?

Aegon takes over Kings Landing, allies with the Riverlands, the Reach, Dorne (possibly marries Arianne?), + Golden Company

Cersei flees to Casterly Rock, Cersei as YMBQ, Jaime as Valonqar

Daenerys arrives, starts Dance 2.0 with Aegon, Aegon takes out or possibly claims one dragon, Tyrion ping pongs between both sides

Arya and Sansa are likely to be in conflict with one another at first (the letter Sansa wrote to Catelyn will likely be used - why else have Robb specificallypoint iut that he left it at home?), and perhaps the show was also right when it had them team up to take out LF (giant in a castle made of snow)

Jon goes South, possibly bonds with Aegon only to see him be taken out by their aunt, Daenerys burns down KL, Arya possibly takes out Daenerys

Bran makes some sort of deal to get rid of the Others, gives up his "powers" to atone for the actions of his ancestors, gets elected King by a council, takes ancestral seat in Harrenhaal

Arianne rules (a possibly independent?) Dorne, Asha as ruler of Iron Islands or whatever is left of its people/possibly displaced and being given land in the North?, Sansa as Lady/QITN, Jon as Lord of the Gift, Jonsa possibly left open ended, Arya sails across the world, Arya and or Brienne as independent agent(s) helping out people in need, Rickon dead (... or Bran's heir... or Septon or Maester...).

Tyrion either: Lannister heir (maybe? with his tongue cut out?) or sent to the Wall. Probably the former.

Like I said, this would definitely be in line with the show ending but unlike the show, here the characters actually would have full arcs and it would be bittersweet rather than just bitter. The dance 2.0 won't be a Jonerys romance and instead will mirror the conflict between Aegon and Rhaenyra, and Daenerys's arc will be tragic and fascinating and her death will be a mirror to Maegor and a direct consequence of what she does to the Smallfolk. All the Starklings (well.... we'll see about Rickon) are left alive, with important and fulfilling but challenging roles. They're all separated but they can and likely will reunite. All the big houses will be ruled by illegitimate children, women, and people with disabilities. No more ice threat and no more fire threat and largely no more real magic. No curtain of light, no YA team up, and a somewhat happy and satisfying and realistic end that includes an actually change to the status quo. It just makes so much sense!!! It feels so right!!!

Hi there! And sorry for the delay!

Isn't it SO satisfying when the books suddenly take on this coherent, stringent logic, all because of what jonsa represents? :)

I broadly agree with your predictions and timeline. I'm more of a jonsa optimist and truther, but otherwise... yeah, it just makes sense, doesn't it?

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Thinking about how one of the most important motifs in Dany’s childhood memories is a seemingly nonexistent lemon tree. Or rather, a tree that her memory insists exists where it naturally shouldn’t. And thinking about how, in her last Dance chapter, at a pivotal moment of development, she reflects that while she wanted to plant trees and watch them grow, dragons don’t plant trees. But how funny is it that her narrative ancestor, Princess Daenerys of Dorne, left behind a legacy of planting an entire garden of trees — a place where children of all backgrounds could come and bloom within it? And then thinking back to Dany’s moment in Clash, when she comes upon a barren wasteland. A place that, despite its harshness, has many types of trees growing within it. For a brief moment, she considers staying to nurture and watch it bloom.

Sure, her childhood memories are false. But the lesson isn’t that she doesn’t belong anywhere because she dreams of lemon trees in Braavos, where they don’t exist. Maybe the lesson is that she can plant these nonexistent trees elsewhere.

Lemon trees don’t grow in Braavos, but Dany can grow them wherever she chooses to plant them. And this is something she will have to understand when the Long Night comes. Winter means death. It means the trees will wither and no new ones will grow to replace them. But Dany is the mother of dragons, and her life is tied to the very process of life and death, destruction and renewal. The Long Night will be marked by dead trees that bear no fruit. But that’s okay. Because Dany has spent her entire arc dreaming of trees where there aren’t any. And isn’t THAT the dream of spring?

[arte072]

In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed. For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said. "But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan." "You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you." "The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth. - Arya X, ACoK

Arya is so rarely associated with faith and prayer in this fandom, yet when she prays to the Old Gods for guidance, they respond and restrengthen her sense of self. Arya of Winterfell! Daughter of the North! She is a direwolf and done with wooden teeth! ✨🤍🩶🐺✨

[hylialeia]

I've really soured on the whole "if these female characters end up in any position other than one of feudal power and influence it means GRRM is perpetuating the harmful idea that women should be punished for their ambition" because while I am aware that is a rather disappointing and common takeaway in fantasy (and other) series in general, I am ALSO aware the strongest most consistent hammer-you-over-the-head-with-it motif across asoiaf thus far has been "FEUDALISM BAD" which is sort of hard to keep impactful when your endgame is "and then they ruled happily ever after and were so good at it nothing bad ever happened again". y'know.

[fromtheseventhhell]

How it feels knowing I'll enjoy Arya's arc whether my theories are right or not because I'm a fan of what's written in the books, not what I projected onto her character

[ride-thedragon]

THE POSSIBILITY OF NETTLES NOT BEING IN HOTD.

I'm still not buying it. I don't think they'll go out of their way to cast Silver Denys who's most notable feat is dying because of Sheepstealer and the Cannibal, Alyn of Hull, who's purpose in the narrative at this point is to be burned by Sheepstealer and not include Nettles.

I know a lot of people are trying to say that maybe Baela has taken her place, but I don't think so. They are sending Rhaena away to the Vale for her storyline. Baela has a bigger part in the fighting, but I don't think that after House Velayron loses Rhaenys, Corlys will allow Baela to fight. I think she'll be placed on Driftmark to pacify Corlys and allow for some sort of representation of his loyalty to Rhaenyra to be at her side. At that point, they would have three new dragon riders so she could sit it out. I think that Baela would be a better person to introduce the idea of Addam (and Alyn) as Heirs to house Velayron because she's more politically savvy in this adaptation.

This is also the season where they set up the Battle Nettles participates in, and she was always the last Dragonseed to claim her dragon, and her process seemed to take the longest.

Basically I'm not worried until we know that Jace is gonna die.

Also, if they choose to bring her in season 3, I genuinely believe it's because they are not going to let her be a Dragonseed in the actual sense. She will not be of Valyrian descent because thematically, she'd be removed from the sowing.

Don't get sad if you're anticipating her, and don't get happy if you want her to be removed. It seems very deliberate that she hasn't been announced, but the feat she achieves is being set up.

STAN THE DRAGON AND RIDER MARKED AND NAMED THIEVES FOR CLEAR SKIN.

[stormcloudrising]

And no matter how far the dragon flew each day, come nightfall some instinct drew him home to Dragonstone. His home, not mine. Her home was back in Meereen, with her husband and her lover. That was where she belonged, surely. ADWD, Daenerys X

Her home is not back in Meereen and she doesn't think it is as emphasized by her question to herself. Her home is with Drogon and the quote strongly suggests that she remains in the South...primarily Dragonstone area when the Long Night Falls.

I don't think that she goes any further north than the Trident for the final battle between the Wolf and the Dragon. The Trident will be where the final Dance with Dragons occurs.

Well dragons are also needed to help defeat The Others so they can’t be all evil.

Are they, though? Are they needed? Is that their purpose in the story?

Or is it that you think they must be, or else they would truly by nothing but a tool of oppression in Dany's hands?

If GRRM were to make the solution to the ancient magical ice threat a simple case of massive fire power or air travel, I would be immensely surprised.

Some characters might think they are needed. But I sincerely doubt they will be.

(The dragons themselves aren't evil, btw, they are simply very dangerous animals, but the circumstances of their creation and their use as weapons of war very much qualify as monstrous.)

[owlsinathens]

Theon "Sherlock" Greyjoy...

There had to be two or more, he decided. While the woman was entertaining Drennan, the others freed the wolves. Theon called for a torch and led them up the steps to the wallwalk. He swept the flame low before him, looking for … there. On the inside of the rampart and in the wide crenel between two upthrust merlons. “Blood,” he announced, “clumsily mopped up. At a guess, the woman killed Drennan and lowered the drawbridge. Squint heard the clank of chains, came to have a look, and got this far. They pushed the corpse through the crenel into the moat so he wouldn’t be found by another sentry.”

ACOK, Theon VI

...and Theon Poirot

“A drunk,” Ryswell declared. “Pissing off the wall, I’ll wager. He slipped and fell.” No one disagreed. But Theon Greyjoy found himself wondering why any man would climb the snow-slick steps to the battlements in the black of night just to take a piss.

[...]

Then, before the day was done, a crossbowman sworn to the Flints turned up in the stables with a broken skull. Kicked by a horse, Lord Ramsay declared. A club, more like, Theon decided.

ADWD, A Ghost in Winterfell

Unlike the corpse/head kicking this doesn't feel performative to me, so I'm guessing it's a trait of Theon's to play private eye. He's clever in many ways (and utterly stupid in some), and his curious mind is never, ever repressed no matter what happens to him - is there anything equivalent to detectives or investigators in Westeros?

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Something rubbed against his leg beneath the table. Jon saw red eyes staring up at him. “Hungry again?” he asked. There was still half a honeyed chicken in the center of the table. Jon reached out to tear off a leg, then had a better idea. He knifed the bird whole and let the carcass slide to the floor between his legs. Ghost ripped into it in savage silence. His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup. He told himself he was fortunate in that too. His eyes stung. Jon rubbed at them savagely, cursing the smoke. He swallowed another gulp of wine and watched his direwolf devour the chicken. Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after the serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with long yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride. Ghost went back to his meal. Jon grinned and reached under the table to ruffle the shaggy white fur. The direwolf looked up at him, nipped gently at his hand, then went back to eating.

Jon I, AGOT

It's interesting that GRRM would dedicate several paragraphs to a seemingly unimportant exchange between a boy, his wolf, and an unfriendly third party. But there's just something about this passage that has continued to nag at me for years since I first read it because, considering how heavy handed GRRM was with the foreshadowing in AGOT, this feels important.

Jon is sitting at table full of squires - aka would be knights. We don't really know who they are or what families they belong to, but it's safe to assume that they come from a certain level of privilege; this is considering the fact that it cannot be financially easy to be a squire. And these boys already have a slew of tales detailing all their previous knightly exploits regarding "battle and bedding and the hunt" which suggests that they have some capital. So you have boys who will soon be men. And they will, presumably, become men of some power.

These lads eat their fill of the chicken until only half remains, which Jon then gives to Ghost. The direwolf's name is not so important here but what he represents is. Throughout the series, we're told that Ghost is reminiscent of the weirwood trees (because of his red eyes and white fur). He's stated to be of and from the Old Gods and since he's a personification of the weirwoods, he might as well be one of them. It's almost as if Jon is presenting whatever is left on the table to the Old Gods (Ghost). He lets them devour his offerings while he silently watches. And the motif of watching is so interesting here because it's kind of like Jon takes on a stewardship role - to watch over land/people/etc. He oversees Ghost eating the chicken, so he's overseeing whatever has been given to the Old Gods. This is not new imagery to his arc. As a brother of the Night's Watch and eventually its leader, we have several instances where he leads people to adopting the Old Gods in some fashion. In ADWD, several recruits swear their vows to the Old Gods while he watches on as their Lord Commander. The Old Gods are also primarily of the North and we're told that Jon has more of the north in him than his brothers; interesting that this also includes Bran. So perhaps whatever is being offered to the Old Gods relates to the North.

We must also note that Jon initially thinks to give only a small portion, a leg, before pivoting and providing the entire thing. It feels to me a bit like the process of carving up a kingdom or something similar. The lords (represented by the squires) take what they want and leave aside what they don't; or perhaps they have eaten to their fill and can take no more. Then when his time comes, Jon first considers a small piece of land/group of people before eventually absorbing all of whatever is left behind. The concept of carving up a kingdom rings harder considering that we have several callbacks to the ideals of kingship in this chapter. Robert, Jaime, Tyrion, and even Mance though we don't know it yet, all play into this. And then there's the aspect of Jon letting the chicken slip between his legs which evokes birth/fatherhood, a very curious choice when GRRM could've just had Jon place the chicken on the floor. So land/people are carved up and Jon then uses whatever is left to birth his own type of kingdom. And this kingdom is one for the Old Gods.

This also touches on something that has been quite prevalent throughout Jon's arc. It's the concept of accepting the "others" or "those left over" who live apart from the accepted social norms. Arya (a tomboy), Sam (a gender non-confirming boy), the Night's Watch (criminals, extra sons, and men who have no future left or place to go), and even the wildlings are all examples of this. And Jon takes on a leadership/paternal role to every single one of them. He looks after them as a leader would/should. Sometimes, in the case of Arya and the wildlings, he's equated to a king. He's a steward/shepherd/king. There's messianic undertones to this:

Come unto me, all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30).

If you're familiar with Judeo-Christian tradition, you'll know that Jesus is often personified as one who spent the majority his time among the outcasts. The idea is that he came to save them too and that anew kingdom (or new earth depending on your translation) would spring up after the end of the world where he would forever rule as king; which presents the idea of a final king after the earthly ones are done away with. Now GRRM isn't so heavy handed with Christian allusions as other authors out there, but he does have a Catholic background and Jon is so overtly a Jesus figure. And in Revelation, Jesus is king and god at the very end....

One last thing: the mention of the mongrel who challenges Jon has always been rather interesting but confusing to me. A mongrel doesn't really relate to one specific type of dog. But it's interesting that Jon notes several roaming about where he is. They follow the serving girls who carry the food to be offered. Mongrels are used to describe antagonist/villainous groups in ASOIAF. Sometimes, they're used to describe slavers in Essos. But what's interesting is that most of the time, they're used to describe Euron's Ironborn especially in Victorian's POV. So I don't think the mongrel who challenges Ghost is a supernatural threat of death (i.e., the Others) but rather a human one. They represent those who are called to the scene once the lords have finished playing their games. It almost feels like a feast for (carrion) crows....

But it doesn't really matter because this mongrel isn't much of a challenge for Ghost. Though the mongrel is much larger, the direwolf is able to fend her off very effortlessly. Given that "mongrel" is used to describe Ironborn raiders, could this exchange between Ghost and the mongrel point to reavers or sea raiders who rise and fail challenge Jon kingdom? There is a historical King Jon Stark who did this....

When sea raiders landed in the east, Jon drove them out and built a castle, the Wolf's Den, at the mouth of the White Knife, so as to be able to defend the mouth of the river.[1][2] His son, Rickard, followed him on the throne and annexed the Neck to the north.

ref.

So this might shed some light not only on Jon's already published arc, but also on what we can expect in the future. We have some foreshadowing through Jon's ADWD dream that he will not only rise with the dawn (thereby live through the Long Night), but will be in a position to lead people (wildings in that chapter) to a new peace after a hard fought war. Also remember that the wildlings, rather enthusiastically, swear oaths to him as if swearing oaths to their king. In this instance, the supernatural (a dream of the war for the dawn) is followed by the natural/human. So perhaps this particular passage (and Jon's dream) can be used to predict that Jon comes out on top, and quite effortlessly too, as a leader. And he becomes a leader who rules by association with the Old Gods; or rules a kingdom for them.

To end, I think it's of note that this passage immediately precedes Jon's conversation with Benjen where he voices his desire to go out on his own - the hero's call to action. This is the adventure that's going to kickstart his growth as a man, warrior and most importantly, a leader. So it looks like before we even began, GRRM telegraphed how it would all end in just three short paragraphs.

[crimsoncold]

have you ever thought about the snow queen fairytale in connection to jonsa? it might be a reach but i can see elements of them in there

Hi asoiastarks! Please forgive my very delayed and rambly response to this ask

I hadn't really considered this fairytale before but when I thought about it in depth I ended up having way more to say about the connection between Jon and Sansa's stories (and Jonsa as a romantic pairing) and fairytales in general than I expected so I'm putting my response below...

While I wouldn't say that there is one specific fairytale that jonsa (or jon and sansa individually) clearly and directly follows I would totally agree with the opinion that Jon and Sansa (two of asoiaf's comparatively most traditionally romantic characters) definitely seem to draw from or echo several common aspects found with protagonists of traditional fairy tales- both as individual characters and as a potential romantic pairing.

I've definitely seen people describe Sansa as a romantic heroine that has tragically been "misplaced" into a brutal world like westeros- and I think that description holds up and that ultimately her gentle and romantic nature will result in an end that is not simply having all her happiness and hope being destroyed by consistent trauma and narrative punishment but rather will have to involve her life flourishing into something beautiful but still grounded providing a more satisfying end for someone who maintains much of the sort of traditional kindness/goodness found with the typical fairytale princess despite the horrors around her- otherwise asoiaf would seem little more than an outright bitter and nihilistic story

I also think we shouldn't sleep on Jon who underneath his wonderfully bitchy sarcastic grumpy or occasionally ruthless exterior holds similarly romantic values and thoughts

Generally speaking it wouldn't surprise me that someone could find commonalities between a fairytale and Jon and Sansa, I feel that many common tropes that are found in a great number of fairytales can correspond to aspects of Jon's or Sansa's individual story and personalities or to Jonsa as a pairing by itself.

Just listing a few off the top of my head ...Having and reclaiming some secret identity that they may or may not have know about, young members of nobility/royalty raised or living in hiding due to their lives being in peril- typically in a position of lower class than they might actually belong to; being the target of the machinations wrath or cruelty of evil kings/queens/or some type of sorcerer or spellcaster, having notable interactions with or a special connection to animals or some type of mythical creature, the concept of being resurrected from some form of permanent sleep or even death

.... and of course in the case of a possible romantic relationship forming- them being character's who after experiencing incredible hardship, tragedy, or sorrow are ultimately awarded for exhibiting, maintaining, or gaining traits such as kindness/compassion/bravery/dutifulness/or selflessness, the possibility of either of them occupying the role of a hero or saviour for the other from either literal physical threats/enemies or more metaphorical ones like their loneliness or emotional trauma, as well as having a completed and happy story arc that ultimately cumulates in them forming a deeply intimate and loving partnership or marriage.

When it comes to the Snow Queen specifically I'm only passingly familiar with this fairytale (so please forgive me in advance if I miss something obvious or get any details wrong) but based on my very basic knowledge of this fairytale I can definitely think of a number of interesting commonalities/parallels this fairytale could have to Jonsa.

Firstly, because so much of Jon, Sansa, and the Stark family's storyline is rooted in a snowy and cold environment (the north, winterfell, the wall, etc.) and because one major threat in the overall story comes in the form of "ice" (i.e. the Long Night and the Others coming from beyond the wall) it doesn't surprise me that one could find a number of (at least surface leve)l commonalities to a story like the snow queen with its similarly icy setting and villain, as well as find a number of common basic story elements/imagery that occur in both- though not always in the same type of context or role (e.g. the appearance of or focus on ice/snow/snowflakes, roses, crows, doves, and a girl traveling and reuniting with someone in the north, the emphasis put on the sweetness or goodness of a character, and the unexpected effect or power that a character's faith/prayers/love/or inherent goodness can have on the world or people around them)

Most of all i can definitely see the potential for some more direct similarities between the snow queen and a hypothetical (but very possible) jonsa endgame for asoiaf....

First in the form of a character like jon being healed and changed from his own altered state (e.g. some form of strangeness, purposelessness, distantness, coldness, harshness, forgetfulness, or trauma that occurs in the aftermath of his time with the night's watch and his subsequent assassination and resurrection) after he is reunited and touched by the sweetness and affection- the love, tears, or even kiss- of a distantly regarded (or even forgotten post resurrection?) but once beloved part of his childhood- in the form of a girl he was raised with who has made a dangerous and long trek north to be reunited with him,

Secondly I could see strong paralelles occuring regarding the ending, i.e. one that centers around two individuals returning to their common home, grown and deeply changed by their experiences but with a hopeful and happier future promised or symbolized in the form of the changing season (with the upcoming one promising to be a time of warmth and renewal after the comparatively harsh or treacherous winter).

Side Note:

Given got/asoiaf's efforts towards exemplifying a far more corrupt, harsh, cruel, senseless and unjust world than what is typically seen in fantasy works I'm not exactly expecting an ending chock-full of sunshine and rainbows....

However I find it notable that Sansa, and to some extent Jon, exist as somewhat of an outlier in an explicity harsh and grim setting (and are further flanked by a number of characters that are a great deal less romantic and more pragmatic, if not outrightly more selfish, cruel, or even brutal and psychotic)

As a result there is something quite striking about the way many of Jon and Sansa's experiences, core personality traits, and their supposedly hopeless or rejected- yet still deeply idolized- dreams end up resembling eachother in so many ways.

Their desires and motives may (for lack of a better word) be comparatively "simpler" and more straightforward than those of many other characters yet they also correspond to an underlying shared sense of duty and desire for family, and are simultaneously deeply meaningful to the character's personally while also exemplifying an appropriate blend of the series realism/pragmatism with jon and sansa's trademark romanticism.

I do believe that a bittersweet but hopeful and affectionate end for these characters and this epic fantasy tale can definitely (at least in part) take the form of not just a reunion of the surviving starks but also in a sort of slightly twisted and bastardized fairytale end for the series via Jon and Sansa having their dreams (of winterfell, marriage, and family) being fulfilled by a respectful, willing, and even loving marriage to one another.

(a love and relationship that would initially be appropriately fraught and seemingly forbidden or obscene but ultimately would be allowed to blossom giving these two characters the closest a story like asoiaf will ever get to a traditionally "happy" fairytale ending)

A Jonsa endgame would also offer a thematically appropriate foil to several other notable romantic relationships in the series...

Like seriously there is way too much sibling incest in this series for GRRM not to be building up to something/coming full circle in the end with a very different but still pseudo-incestuous relationship in the form of Jonsa

... like I swear to god he's gonna be like "here have a bunch of current, recent, and long past tragic, ruinous, and/or deeply unhealthy and harmful incestuous marriages and relationships...isn't this obviously always such a terrible thing to occur?" only to go against typical expectations of readers and once again reject the simplicity of an obviously black and white story with a strong and consistent divide between the "heroes" and the "villains" and instead sucker punch the audience by offering up an emotionally and thematically fulfilling but somewhat unusual (even uncomfortable for a number of readers) and bittersweet end that once again involves an incestuous (of sorts) relationship only this time amongst the "good" characters in the story, in the form of a marriage between cousins and psuedo siblings Jon and Sansa.

[nymerias-heart]

Do ye remember when 2 years ago I made a 28 minute long video and posted it but then never made any other YouTube content for asoiaf?

I have most of January off from college so I was wondering if during this break I should make some more videos? And is yes, what should they be about?

[catelynakgae]

y'know what would have been hilarious...

[riocat01]

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

So what if Sansa aka "the little bird" ends up becoming Lady of the Vale? The place where House Arryn - which has a falcon on its sigil- rules. What if??