#'was curlfeather right in all she did?' no

[ploverpaw]

Okay I'll speak a thought

It's hard for me to take 'does Curlfeather deserve to go to The Dark Forest' seriously because I believe the dark forest is an inherently flawed system no cat really deserves to go to

It's hammered in that it's an entirely horrible place to exist in, and there's no incentive or opportunities for cats to change their ways, learn better, or get help if a lack of it contributed to their actions already. And even when they do manage to do so, there's still no hope for them. They're still stuck in Cat Hell, surrounded !!for eternity!! by the unmonitored violence of the other df cats.

The only cat who got close as far as I know was Juniperclaw, who has to serve Starclan in a tunnel forever without ever being allowed to join them.

Seemingly, the only way for these cats to really change their situation from there is by breaking through on their own, usually through the use of violence, so I'm Not surprised the great battle [OOTS] came about.

Not to mention if we go off what we learned of Snowtuft in TBC, they don't even remember what they did to be in the dark forest after enough time has passed, so at that point it seems exceedingly cruel.

Of course these cats, including Curlfeather, deserve to face consequences for their actions, but the dark forest seems like a pointless way of just causing more pain for the sake of it. And it's the same punishment regardless of the crime, while we know many cats who arguably do things of the same severity are allowed into Starclan just fine

I could say so much more I have so many thoughts but I don't want this to get too long

look at this

[clanborn]

star climax that i would personally enjoy: splashtail's got frostpaw pinned in their final confrontation, he's this close to finally killing her, and all of frostpaw's fears culminate and leave her frozen, unable to struggle free. curlfeather, through sheer willpower ignited by this immediate threat to her daughter's life, summons all the energy she can muster to project her image into the physical world, visible to both splash and frost. her sheer fury, her mangled corpse--here, present, clawing her way out of splashtail's dreams and into a waking nightmare, here to drag him down to hell with her--spooks splashtail to the core. this either frightens him so bad he suffers cardiac arrest, or he instantly bolts and abandons the clans forever (for the case where he could be brought back as a villain who is ideally no longer lame). once more, curlfeather saves frostpaw's life, this time from beyond the grave, so great is her love for her daughter. with the image of her bloodied mother burned in her mind, frostpaw's conflicted feelings bubble to the surface, feelings she's desperately forced underneath a layer of anger and resentment. frostpaw faces the truth: that her mother manipulated her for her own gain, but also that her mother loved her, and ultimately cared for frostpaw more than her own life. curlfeather was not entirely good or bad, she was simply just a cat, a flawed one, one capable of both good and bad things. hidden in all of her misdeeds was a cat that could be forgiven--and in turn, frostpaw too could be forgiven, and no longer needs to blame herself for every misfortune that had befallen her and her clan. frostpaw is also just a cat, a child under incredible duress, forced to make decisions that no child should have to make. she thinks of every cat that pushed that responsibility onto her--yes, her mother, but also splashtail, her older clanmates, every clan cat around the lake that turned a blind eye to her desperation. even starclan--her all knowing, benevolent ancestors--had stood by while she suffered, had caused her suffering, had used her not unlike the way curlfeather had. what made them different? why was curlfeather punished by cats who were no better? why was frostpaw punished for doing everything right? what distinction did starclan make between "good" and "bad" when all cats were capable of both, including starclan, in all its alleged, unerring kindness?

frostpaw once again does starclan's bidding, touches her nose to the moonpool and receives her nine lives. with each life, cats flash before her vision--harelight, riverstar, jayclaw--but they aren't the cats she sees. in her mind she sees curlfeather, blood on her paws and love in her eyes, and newly named froststar decides what sort of leader she will be. this is the last time she will follow starclan's path, no more will riverclan be subject to their will and their hypocrisies. relying on starclan is what destroyed them, their ancestors standing idle as riverclan tore itself apart for their favor. no more will riverclan force warriors and apprentices in certain roles, no more will it allow complacency, letting desperate voices go unheard. splashtail rejected starclan, but that is not what drove his bloodthirst and desire for power. under froststar's leadership, power would not solely lie in the paws of her and starclan, but shared among her clanmates, unable to be ripped away by a lone instigator, shattered by a single break in the chain.

maybe she'll be the kind of leader curlfeather wanted to be. maybe she'll be better. either way, froststar will lead riverclan into a golden dawn.

[bonefall]

The more I consider the "Smoky gets Frostpaw sterilized against her will" thing, the more I dislike it even on a thematic level...

This book seems to be trying to put Frostpaw through an arc of learning to trust people. Riverstar magically appears in her dreams to send her to the Park Cats who are meant to teach her this lesson, but... starting and resolving that arc more than halfway through the book was sloppy, and a waste.

Instead of Smoky forcing medical treatment on her in spite of how she tells him point blank "please no," SHE should have called for the human.

A creature that the Clan cats have never trusted, that they have great reason to fear. Caught between dying with her pride like a good warrior and taking a risk on the kindness of an unknowable beast, in spite of all the betrayal, she chooses the chance.

Play it like this; Make it so the reason she becomes chosen by Riverstar at all is because he SEES this glimmer of potential within her, because of this very choice.

Instead of that bizarre opening chapter where he seems to have magically gifted her some kind of spiritual connection as a plot device, INSTEAD make it that they were sadly overseeing the end of her life. That this was her destiny, to die as a young, proud warrior apprentice. To trust no cat, as her mother told her.

But instead, she tricks the wording of the self-fulfilling prophecy Curlfeather told her. It said nothing about trusting a human!

THEN follow it up with teaching her how to trust cats again. But make the road down this character arc be something she truly initiated, instead of the weird bullshit they did with her being mad at Smoky for violating her consent while also exonerating him for "Doing The Right Thing :)"

[stargleam-star]

My thoughts on Star, and A Starless Clan as a whole:

Spoilers ahead for A Starless clan amd a bit of Ivypool's Heart if it wasn't obvious. Time for me to go on a rant! It's gonna feature me mostly gushing about Frostpaw because she's the only character with enough substance to talk in length about. But I've got other things to talk about too I guess. Lets get into it:

As usual, Frostpaw was the best character of the book and honestly the most relatable. She kept Going Through It until basically the very end and I felt so bad for her.

What I am glad about though is that she got the killing blow on Splashtail! Fuck yeah that's my baby girl <3

But he did get a hit in on her before the end and left her basically comatose which was tragic. Reading Frostpaw drift in and out of consciousness and what she saw while knocked out was really cool tho. I especially liked that she got to have deeper conversations with Curlfeather. She wanted so desperately for her mother to admit fault, to show some remose for her actions. Instead Curlfeather kept focusing on how Splashtail ruined her plans, and how he's to blame. All she wanted to do was protect Frostpaw and Riverclan. There wasn't the slightest bit of remorse at all. It was so tragic reading Frostpaw wishing her mother would hold herself accountable. It really hit home with me. In the end, Curlfeather couldn't face the truth and left Frostpaw behind to conclude her mother wasn't a good person and learn to accept that so she could move on. Heartwrenching stuff imo

I got really sad when Frostpaw started taking a turn for the worse and finally got to see Starclan. She got to meet her dad and was so happy, he made her realize that she needs to focus on herself and her happiness instead of worrying about everyone else's needs. Nobody understands how fucking Relatable that is to me. Nobody come near me rn.

Frostpaw wanted so badly to finally give up and be at peace. She wanted to be happy and relax, and to help in other ways. As much as that would have crushed me for her arc to conclude with her death, it really did feel like a good end for her. She would have done so well as a Starclan messenger. She deserves the rest. Sadly the narrative didn't want that to be the end of her, so she got to come back. Hooray /s

I like the medicine cat name she was given! Frostdawn is pretty (although I am lowkey disappointed she wasn't named Frostfeather, and that's not because I wanted her sharing a name with Curlfeather. I've got an oc named Frostfeather and it would have been amazing for a canon POV character to have that name too. Alas).

I'm also going crazy over the fact that her and Whistlepaw (now Whistlebreeze) got named together. I love these two lesbians so much its insane. The speech Frostpaw gave Whistlebreeze about being a good medicine cat and how grateful she was to have been saved by her? I'm planning their wedding as we speak

Frostdawn ended up choosing Icewing as Riverclan's leader, which was the obvious choice from the start imo. Also very predictable but what do I expect from a series written for 6th graders? I'm still salty as hell we got to see her leader ceremony but never Squirrelstar's.

I find it weird that Icewing was against Frostpaw in the beginning of Wind but then came around to "omg you were right" because Splashtail got mean. It was kind ooc for her, but then again she stopped having a bigger role during that book up until the end of Star.

Why tf was Icewing's voice the loudest that Frostpaw heard when cats started singing to bring her back to life? Also how tf were regular warriors able to sing to reach Frostpaw's spirit? I get that Tree was with them, and Icewing had spent a few days with The Sisters in Ivypool's super edition, but it doesn't explain how they were able to get that power. Also it was "all the she-cats that love [Frostpaw]" which included cats such as Duskfur and Mothwing who'd been mean to her throughout a good chunk of the arc... ok. Anyways.

All of A Starless Clan should have been soley in Frostdawn's point of view. Nightheart and Sunbeam barely brought anything to the table

Might as well talk about them. I like how Nightheart's character arc finished. He wasn't a jerk by the end and started being more respectful. His POV felt pointless most of the time, but I liked getting a glimpse of the inside of Riverclan during the height of Splashtail's reign (more on that soon)

Sunbeam's POV was completely unnecessary. While I liked that we got deeper thoughts on Berryheart as a result of Sunbeam, I don't think we really needed it for the story. I don't even think the way things wrapped up between them was good.

I'm gonna talk about Berryheart now because she's more interesting. I've come to the conclusion that the Erins dropped the ball with her as a villan. By the end, she was nothing more than a traitor in every single way. She was untrustworthy and I cheered when she died. She should have died 3 books ago if she wasn't gonna do anything worthwhile. No her trying to get Shadowclan on her side to let her be leader in the end qhike trying to convice them to rise up against Riverclan was not good. It was stupid as hell, almost as stupid as her joining Riverclan and becoming its deputy

I'm gonna talk about Splashtail but there's not a lot to say that I haven't already (but I will repeat myself). It felt like the Erins were trying to remake Tigerclawstar and his villan arc with Splashtail. Think about it. Ambitious, broad shouldered, dark brown tabby tom, who conspired with cats from another clan to kill their leader in order to gain power for themself? Check. A merger of Shadowclan and Riverclan? Check. Evil cat wanting to rule all the clans? Check. A deputy slain for having a different opinion? Check that off too.

As stated before the only differences between Tigerclawstar and Splashtail was that Splashtail was a lazy coward, Tigerstar actually belived in Starclan and its strength, and Splashtail had none of the charm or support that Tigerclawstar had. Also Splashtail had to resort to threatening the life of kits to get cats to do what he wanted, while Tigerclan followed Tigerclawstar's rule because he was formidable and had cats in it who truly believed in him and his vision for the future

Splashtail was written to be so cartoonishly evil and it was a sad thing to read. I'm glad Frostpaw got to kill him, and I loved how he was tormented until the end by Curlfeather's demon spirit.

I didn't like how they implied Splashtail might be the way he was due to mental illness though. I'm probably gonna get hate for saying that, lol. But in the last book they wrote him to seem like s psychopath, as well as implied him to be schizophrenic because he was talking to someone that wasn't visible (even though he was actually seeing a real dead person. But nobody but Splashtail and the audience got to know that). They literally called him crazy throughout the last book, the entire time. And idk it just felt like they were villifying mental illness a bit as a result. Again I'm probably reading into it too much, don't come at me please

The leaders were not as impactful in Star as I'd hoped. But at least they acted and fought together in the end. I loved that the leaders actually participated in the battles to liberated Riverclan instead of only sending warriors to do it. I love seeing leaders fighting for the good of their clan and putting their lives on the line (that's what their 9 lives are for. Looking at you Brambleclaw)

I didn't like that sone of Riverclan's cats were trying to join Thunderclan near the end of Star and I liked how Squirrelstar acknowledged that they had too many warriors as itwas, and how they had to expand the warrior's den in the past because of it. Wish the Erins would do something about all those cats

99% of Thunderclan was not mentioned at all this book, including the elders + Brambleclaw from what I read (I might've skimmed iver smth tho idk) but there was mention of cats like Myrtlebloom and fucking Eagletail for sone reason (is that their name? I can't remember). Tell me why any of these cats are alive if they're not worth mentioning while we have a camp scene? At least I got to see my girl Daisy <3

A Starless Clan had so much potential and the writing and mystery in the beginning were really good. I just wish they'd kept it up throughout.

Star felt like a flat finish and while I liked the way Frostpaw's chapters concluded and the whole main plot of Riverclan without a leader, I hate that the book ended on a Nightheart chapter and that the last like was about how he "could be brave and loyal no matter what his name was." Like that was a really dumb final chapter of the arc, a genuinely novice choice. It ruined the arc conclusion for me. Frostdawn's chapter should have been last

OverallI I will give Star a 3/10, and A Starless Clan 5/10 stars. It could have been great. But then, it wouldn't be Warriors would it?

[the-owl-tree]

Okay, end of live read bullet point time:

I liked the pacing of this book a lot, I think Star is definitely my favorite book from ASC so far even if it's lacking in a lot of departments.

It's a shame the previous books couldn't maintain this pace or outright wasted time. I feel like I got a glimpse of what this arc could have been with just a little more time to cook (and less time wasted with journeying!)

They did a really good job with using their three POVs to make sure that the reader always had eyes in every piece of action, no more clone POVs in the same Clan! Nightheart was good here, I think they should have gotten him into RC earlier.

This book is so close to doing something really special for the series and just fumbles at the last minute in a really painful way that I don't like. I feel like I'm watching hockey and somehow the player keeps missing an empty net.

The books sets up some really good conclusions and just...doesn't see them through to the extent they should.

The theme of my live read was: it's just so close to getting it and then it doesn't get it. It hurts man.

Character wise, I liked how most of the characters were utilized: Frostdawn was fantastic throughout, I really do like how they showed her neglecting herself and being forced to eat and slow down.

I love that she misses her mom despite it all, that when she's scared, she seeks out Curlfeather.

Their confrontation was just so so close to being fantastic, I just wish it didn't end with Frostdawn insisting the status quo was good. Girl!! It wasn't!!!!!!

I really wish her choice to return was, well, her choice. She's essentially ripped from limbo and is just like "oh they do like me :D". RiverClan doesn't really reconcile with how they hurt her, at least not in a satisfying way.

Sunbeam was good, really liked her complicated feelings with her mother. I like how she's come a long way to being a little more mindful, sad that she and Lightleap never reconciled at all. Hurts me :(

Nightheart was good, they finally used his damn POV in a useful way! Until the final chapter. which, well. was bad.

really should've just ended on Frostdawn's chapter, like his character was so disjointed and disconnected from the rest of the plot. It was a bad place to end the book (continuing the theme of the book being SO close to doing it right and fumbling it lol)

probably more thoughts, otherwise uh i enjoyed myself even if i was disappointed.

rating: it's so fucking close to being really good/10

[unofficially-ace]

Star thoughts/liveblog (spoilers ahead ofc)

- If Splashtail is holding kittens hostage have you guys tried….driving him out? It’s literally one guy against the whole of Riverclan, just keep him away from the kits and there won’t be an issue???

- The conflict is kinda stupid I can’t lie, this could be solved if everyone in Riverclan wasn’t such a dumbass

- Cloverfoot is going to die in this battle I can smell it

- I can’t believe we’re getting fascism explained to us through warrior cats

- Berryheart fell down the crunchy mom -> alt right pipeline real

- This book is making me like Tigerheartstar wtf

- Frostpaw I would die for you

- Harestar you’re the most annoying mf ever please die

- What is it with Riverclan and their camp being turned into a prison every other series

- Graysludge and Mistslime are objectively hilarious names

- What happened to Splashtail being compelling why is he just cartoonishly evil and insane now

- There are not enough supporters of Splashtail to make give this any stakes come onnnn, he has like 5 people actually on his side

- I love Berryheart she’s so fucked up

- Wtf is Owlnose doing, why is he siding with Splashtail for no reason??

- Sunbeam you are so stupid my god

- ‘She didn’t realise what she was doing’ yes she did lmao

- RIP Berryheart you were the most compelling villain of the series

- That makes 2 dead female villains and we’re stuck with the boring male one….

- Owlnose you just killed someone don’t try and make me feel bad for you

- ‘The last thing she ever did was save you’ just like Curlfeather….the parallels…

- This feels like setup for Froststar ngl

- I can’t believe Nightheart is the only guy with a braincell here

- Is fogstar going to be a thing??? She hasn’t even been mentioned once before this book

- Riverclan is so stupid it actually pains me

- Why are we still calling them Greysludge and Mistslime that’s literally so mean lol, just call them by their apprentice names

- The tension is actually really good

- Not exactly liking how Splashtail seems to be genuinely mentally I’ll and that’s why he’s evil…

- He’s fuckin dead and we’re only halfway through?? Now what?

- So glad Frostpaw got to be the one to kill him though, that was so satisfying

- Riverclan you can justify all you want but at the end of the day you’re fuckin stupid

- The second he started doing murders y’all should’ve turned on him and it would all be fine

- Hi Mothwing when did you get here

- Lol fuck those guys (fognose and breezeheart)

- Goddamn Berryheart’s funeral scene is some of the best writing I’ve seen in a warriors book for a while, these are genuinely interesting emotions to explore

- Ewww I don’t wanna think about frost having a crush on splash stop bringing this up my god

- Oh fuck yes Frostpaw and Curlfeather angst

- If the rest of this book is just emotional conflict I will be more than happy with it

- Don’t kill off Frostpaw I swear to god

- Kate Cary I’m putting my trust in you

- This scene would make an incredible animation

- Might be my new favourite chapter of warrior cats ever holy shit that SLAPPED

- Fuck off Nightheart I need more Frostpaw

- Having Nightsky and Nightheart is so confusing

- Thunderclan can’t go two seconds without an argument (usually started by Lionblaze)

- I kinda love this type of conflict, it’s much more interesting than Splashtail being crazy

- Podlight is still here???

- Tree does something as a mediator for the first time ever

- Who tf is emberstar (if they’re relevant in Riverstar’s SE then I haven’t read it lol)

- The fact that I genuinely can’t tell if Frostpaw will survive is so good

- Please let the rest of the chapters be Frostpaw I don’t gaf about the others right now

- Whistlebreeze is the cutest name

- Frostdawn!!!! Also cute as fuck

- ICESTAR REALLLLL LETS GO

- Oh my god this chapter is gonna make me cry

- Sunbeam is pregnant and I want to explode

- And that’s a wrap on ASC , genuinely actually enjoyed this book, especially the second half. The emotional conflict was really interesting I gotta be honest, Frostdawn’s almost-dead scenes were so fun and had really good tension. The conflict with Splashtail ended up getting really stale, I’m glad he was killed halfway through because I couldn’t have dealt with that being dragged out for a whole book

[stickstone]

I’ll give you some additional Curlfeather feels: Re-read Mistystar’s Omen where she’s just innocent little Curlkit. At that point, she was just babey, and Duskfur hugging her and Podkit with her tail protectively was so cute 🥺 And then she and Podkit get into a lil kitten argument, and Duskfur jokes with Mistystar about raising kits, and little did she know what her kits would become. And she also squeaked and played in the mud and was just a fuzzy babey kitten who Mosspelt, a perm-queen at this point, probably also doted on her and her brother

There’s always just something so chilling about going back and reading about tragic characters/villains during their carefree kit and apprentice days in older books. I love torturing myself with that lmao

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

god i love going back and seeing scenes like that that. were not intended to be sad or important when they were written, but looking back? holy shit

i get the same massive hit of sadness reading berryheart’s scenes from avos and tigerheart’s shadow… like look at this quote

“That's the trouble, Rippletail. I'm not all right. None of us are. But we can be. StarClan will guide us. We just...we can't give up. As long as we don't give up, sooner or later...StarClan will guide us home.” - Berryheart

something so fascinating about seeing her unshakable faith in starclan and shadowclan portrayed as a beacon of hope in one book… when in a few more books it will become the same thing that makes her a villain

[wc-confessions]

Wanted to say this in response to the “Curlfeather is morally grey/isn’t morally grey” topic—

Curlfeather still loves Frostpaw. She even risked her life giving up her own to save Frostpaw from the dogs. She conspired the plan with Splashtail in order to make RiverClan better, as we all know StarClan is rather shady in their own practices (see Leafpool and Squirrelflight’s trial). The Clans need to start trusting and relying on themselves more rather than in the faith of dead cats who have in canon, put cats like Ashfur in StarClan because he “loved too much”, have given Tigerstar his nine lives despite in canon giving Pinestar the omen that he would be a monster, have refused to give Nightpelt his own nine lives when he stepped up to be leader because according to StarClan Brokenstar was still the leader of ShadowClan, and again they put Leafpool and Squirrelflight on trial for listening to them and having the prophesied litter that saved the Clans from the Dark Forest. StarClan is getting ridiculous and the amount of faith the Clam cats put in them needs to be diminished.

She IS morally grey because she is doing what she believes is best for the Clan. She’s doing a necessary evil to free RiverClan from remaining in the state of obeying dead ancestors who commit shady practices and rules. On the other hand, yes she brought Frostpaw into the plan to take over RiverClan. But again, she still loves her, and again, gave up her life to save Frostpaw. To say she didn’t or never loved her own daughter would be false. If she didn’t love Frostpaw, she could’ve left her to the dogs. But, she didn’t. Yes, her practices on how she carried out the take over RiverClan plan can be debated. But to argue that she is an awful mother through on through isn’t accurate. And it is misogyny that some people hate her, because god forbid we have a she-cat in the series who is actually interesting. Moonkitti actually did a very good video on this topic, and while I disagree that Crowfeather was worse because pain olympics are not right and we should not be equating different kinds of evils against each other in some sort of justice olympics (we can all agree Crowfeather is a shitty dad but we shouldn’t be fighting over who “had it worse” or “was worse”) her point that Curlfeather still loved Frostpaw and is still her mother stands.

ㅤ

[mistlestripe]

ASC STAR BIG spoilers

(my opinion on the book:) first half is lame as hell, splashtail and berryheart both end up dying in "spontaneous chaos" moments and their deaths feel weightless bec they were both painfully incompetent so it just felt like they fucked around until they found out. I like WHO kills splashtail but like even that wasnt done very well and has very little weight on the characters involved with him and its not contemplated very much. I also fucking hate what they did with fognose IM KILLING YOU i swear that they just changed their mind on what they were going to do with her midway she was literally 100% gang until they decided to make her podlight 2 and exile her (AND PODLIGHT JUST GOT AWAY WITH IT WHY THE WOMAN WHY ALWAYS THE WOMANN) second half was pretty okay its nothing like the first half of the book, i definitely like the time they give the characters to recollect everything that happened and etc and i like the time they gave the cahracters to express their emotions, but nothing really happens lmao and the characters end up isolated because the plot was the only reason the background characters were being utilized so theyre just not important now lol. Curlfeather was the highlight of the book for me (even if i dont like that it suggests her love was conditional when like i wouldnt say that even tho i get the point lmao...) Jayclaw was there tho and he was lame but like i would have found it just Amusing if he wasnt given an unfittingly important use I hated the leadership ceremony at the end and was so bad to the point im actually glad they never showed squirrelstar's leadership ceremony because fucking moth flight probably would have been in it. shes not in this one but all of the options are horrendous and have nothing to do with the leader in question and all the choices are just "relevant to this arc VERY SPECIFICALLY, or 'was important to riverclan at some entirely irrelavent point'. (OR IS A USELESS FIRST ARC INSERT THAT MAKES NO SENSE IN BEING THERE OTHER THAN BEING **A** RIVERCLAN CAT WHEN THE LEADER IN QUESTION DIDNT EVEN EXIST UNTIL ARC 3. MUDFUR AND CROOKEDSTAR GTFO RIGHT NOW!!!!!!)

[bonebabbles]

What's your overall opinion on Thunder? (If you finished reading it) Despite a having a few issues with it personally, (such as Frostpaw deciding to become a med cat again (GIRL WHAT) and the Smokey stuff), I honestly really enjoyed it! I loved reading from Sunbeam's and Frostpaw's perspective, and actually like what they did with the park cats! They are silly, even if a little boring! :)

I really, really hope they explore Curlfeather more in the future!

I'm currently on Chapter 12 and... honestly I'm mostly just bored.

One traveling book per arc is already waaaaay too much. I'm not enjoying Frostpaw and Nightheart's chemistry at all, and it's frustrating that Tree is now suddenly part of the plot because they just suddenly remembered that they have an entire role dedicated to stopping conflict. Seeing StarClan NOW is also a huge disappointment, because I'd been liking this arc so much exactly because it was more grounded.

I keep wanting to skip chapters to get back to Sunbeam. I KNOW that Nightheart is Not Orange and still feels the need to pitch a fit over his mom having "high expectations" that were never actually on-screen. Frostpaw herself would be fun if she wasn't constantly brawling with travel filler and Riverstar/StarClan being obtuse.

And, knowing none of this is actually building anywhere and that I'm in store for a frustrating end-of-book gathering that doesn't really tie into the actions of the main characters, it's hard to care at all. That's my REALLY big problem right now. None of this matters, because Berryheart's gambit is something she's deciding entirely off-screen, uninfluenced and unobserved by ANY of the POVs.

What exactly is the point of THREE POVs, one of them seeing mere glimpses of the plot, and two of them witnessing the same exact sidequest? While one of the sidequest POVs doesn't actually DO anything because it's not even his sidequest?

Basically; sorry man I'm not having a good time here.

[warriorkittiecats]

Also I find the 180 in Splashtail's behavior a little weird.

Like, don't get me wrong, it makes sense that his mask would start slipping when he finally has power in his grasp. But this much?

He very silently and subtly killed Reedwhisker and Curlfeather and tried to do the same with Frostpaw (even though she got away) but instead of, like, pushing Harelight off a cliff and saying he "ran away" like the other "traitors", Splashclaw just murders a clanmate in front of everyone?

And WHY did Splashtail admit to knowing Curlfeather was involved with killing Reedwhisker? Nobody wanted to believe Curlfeather would do such a thing, but instead of hiding behind her reputation and maybe getting Duskfur, Mistpaw, and Greypaw on side by admonishing Frostpaw's "betrayal" of her mothers memory, Splashtail decides to go "Yeah Frostpaw's totally right about Curlfeather doing it but I wasn't involved" instead of making Frostpaw look completely crazy and/or awful?

Also it would have been SO easy for him to just keep his mouth shut about Starclan. He easily could have faked respect for Starclan and lied to everyone instead of putting it off forever until all the medicine cats thought he was guilty? And then he starts publicly disrespecting Starclan too? And evil monologuing at the moonpool instead of thinking about the possibility that he was followed??

It's just weird to me, idk. If Splashtail was set up as being sloppy, aggressive, and egotistical from the start, then sure. But he wasn't. He got away with his murders well, he manipulated Frostpaw semi decently, and he put on a good enough face to get all the was to defacto leader..

But then he just suddenly drops all subtlety and starts evil laughing killing everyone saying blasphemous things in the middle of camp, and all for what?

[bonefall]

Since Mapleshade mostly targets the applekin, would she have hypothetically tried to go for silverstream and possibly Stormier, assuming she was aware of them?

She did go after Silverstream. She got her, even. Interesting that she went into premature labor on Sunningrocks, so far away from a Cleric, isn't it?

And all of Mistyfoot's damn children too-- she was able to drown Perchkit young, but then that damn orange blister and his fuzzy-headed fleabag plucked Reedkit and Pikekit from the river.

But that's okay. She can be patient.

And she can set a fuzzy-minded fool on her path away from camp, right into the paws of Tigerclaw, to reveal an old secret. She can make sure he witnesses the saving of old Bluestar, too. What good ammo for accusations such a situation makes.

Stormpaw, Featherpaw, Mistyfoot, Stonefur. All of the Applekin, in one spot, in a cage built by TigerClan. She was SO close to wiping them all out at once. She had to settle with Pikepaw, making sure his murderers were never identified, and Primrosepaw later by the same, unknown killers.

But the last one, Reedwhisker... he was too lucky for her. Too pious. She kept pulling him into the river, and he kept pulling himself out. Or BEING pulled out. And he was too clever with his own kits, though he was emotionally distant, he made sure both of them knew how to call to their ancestors... in ways both dark and light.

One of them, at some point, certainly took the flesh of an adder to set Frecklewish on her. Like a guard dog. How DARE they!!

Mapleshade can't see Stormfur, so far away, but she does slobber maliciously at Graypaw, Mistpaw, and Frostpaw. Curlfeather and Podlight would be a bonus, if she could find some way to get rid of them.

And that's where she's at, now.

[exocynraku]

thunder spoilers under the cut!!! read at your own risk!!! here are my opinions on the book!!! i wrote this right after reading originally on the 4th and planned 2 post it on the 7th. it's not the 7th exactly where i live but the wiki updated with spoilers since it's the 7th over there so whatever

okay, so, overall, i liked it. i didnt LOVE it, but i liked it. sunbeams chapters were all great, and with nightheart travelling with frostpaw, he finally had the chance to not be an ass, and he wasn't as bad! i actually read his chapters this time, and oh my god frostpaws chapters were INCREDIBLE!!!! i loved her interactions with whistlepaw and smoky, and wow. she did get spayed, LOL! got spoiled for that early (thanks, assholes!) i was NOT expecting to meet the new cats of the park! i totally thought we'd encounter warriorclan! i'm a little bummed about that, but the cats of the park were all super nice to read about which was super nice. especially bee! thought i'm upset she has the same name as another cat.. wails the reveal of splashtail i totally expected, but i'm a little surprised over curlfeather. i know that there's been suspect she was a villain, but damn! i wanted to hold onto hope! but hey, her being evil is super interesting. plus, wow! she's in the dark forest! i guess i shouldve expected that, but it's felt like forever since a cat got sent there. (which i dont think is rlly true? juniperclaw went i think that was tbc? whatever, still feels so long ago) also i didnt mind that it was a travelling book! i know a lot of ppl HATEEEE travelling books, but i think there was still enough substance to make it interesting! now, that ending... er, hard to explain my feelings. i like cliffhangers because they make me really excited for the next book, but man! this one hurt bad! i want frostpaw to jump out !!!! raugh!!! also, waffle and wasp are cute! i'm happy theyre coming to the clans! we NEED more genetic diversity SOBS and honestly, with frostpaws thoughts right before leaving the park, with the clans needing to become less harsh and fighty, and more open, especially to outsiders? that was incredible! genuinely, genuinely incredible! and i hope they go through with it, i really do! berryheart is also an interesting character. if i'm being honest, i hope she leaves. not becaues i dont like her (i think she's one of the most interesting characters we've had in the series for a long time, even if she sucks), but because like i said earlier we NEED more genetic diversity in the clans! more cats with long blood lines need to leave or die, and new cats w/o long blood lines, or none at all need to start existing. all of the incest is pissing me off. so i'm glad that somecat with not a particularly long bloodline, but a big one (berryheart has like 70 siblings) is leaving. plus those other cats. last misc things, finally, some tree action! it's a miracle! i also like how there were mentions of 1: thunderclan being overcrowded (please please please mass exctinction event GO) and 2: tree being mediator, but never really having the chance to shine. also, cherryfall sucks. jeez louise! i used to like her for gods sake! spotfur and her kits were adorable, i liked ivypool in this book, and oh my god, brambleclaw finally gets less of a spotlight! overall, i liked it. not the most amazing book to ever exist ever, but it definitely got my excited for the next books!!! really happy with ASC so far and i'm pumped to see what's going to happen with it in the future.

also, with the cats of the park cats being introduced, i'll have to draw them! oh boy more work for me to do

[the-owl-tree]

Man, I WISH Nightheart being whiny had payoff. Like it would've been a great wakeup call if he was complaining about Sparkpelt and Frostpaw just. Glares at him and goes.. "My mother is dead! She- she was eaten by dogs, and I- she told me to trust no cat, and you're acting like your mother who- who's still alive, who just wanted you to grow up to be a beloved and respected figure in our history is a awful cat? I wish Curlfeather was still here to tell me things like that!" And sure, maybe it doesn't snap him out of it completely right away (because it'd be uninteresting if he did a completely 180 with his flaws then and there), but it does give him pause.. He thinks Sparkpelt struggling through PPD, wanting him to succeed in life, and being exiled and unable to interact with him, even when she pleaded to stay is bad..but here he is, seeing a (justifiably) upset Frostpaw, grieving her mother. Is his resentment towards Sparkpelt truly justified?

Maybe he needs to reconsider things, and how he treated her before his mom dies too, thinking he doesn't care about her at all even if she cares about him..

this would be a lovely development for their prior conversation (which. funnily enough cements to me they're still going to make me think sparkpelt was in the wrong) where the two bond over pressure from their mother's "ambitions" (seriously. what ambitions. what did sparkpelt want. girlie has gone through too much for this) and the full extent of curlfeather's manipulation is revealed. it would help nightheart put things into perspective (i am still clinging onto him realizing he's just holding onto unjustified anger....blease. im so tired of the narrative trying to recycle this conflict over and over again).

but thunder has not made me confident as they shower me with news that nightheart is god's most special little guy

[theblankest123]

Some random thoughts on the thunder leak we got so far

The way the person wrote it, it really sounds like Splashtail is actually genuenly alarmed and in horror with Frostpaw dissapearing and then Whistlepaw telling him that she got carried off by a buzzard. Like that seems like a bit of a weird of a guy that we suspect of attacking frostpaw with the intention of murder. Makes me wonder if Splashtail was not the one that attacked her? Maybe he genuienly thought of Frostpaw as a good asset to him becoming a leader and did not actually want her dead? Does he know who might have attackled her but cannot comment on it? Very curious.....

Sunbeam i hope you dump your impulsive ass bf but stay in TC with your brand new adopted family. The way they all support her a ton and the way how she seems to both enjoy and be good at mentoring, doing the task, it sounds cute as hell. Someone mentioned that she might be given one of the kits as an apprentice to signify that TC trusts her which hell yeah thatd be great :]

Didnt really like how they tried to make squirrelflight at the time sound unreasonable with Bramble being the reasonable one in that one chapter after the first moonpool visit failed, wether it was the person writing it in the forum or the book, but alas. Ooooo Brambe is the reasonable one and Squirrelflight/star is SOOOO unreasonable therefore bramble is in the right always and squirrel is wrong and bad. Like shuddup. Hope thats not what they were going with. Either way a minor pet peeve its just bramblesquirrel arguing again like always

Frostpaw my girl my beloved little gal. Ily. She is now the chosen cat by starclan tasked to go on a journey, break riverclan appart and then rebuild it. Little girl's gonna fuck shit up hell yeah

Curlfeather is absolutely in darkforest kitty hell isnt she. Ooo man. And starclan did not want to tell Frostpaw that because oof she is already going through a lot lets not drop that bomb on her juuust yet, she'll figure out that her mom was doing shady things and might have been involved in Reed's death eventually.

They are absolutely gonna use the being spayed plot point as a means to cause a bit more angst for Frostpaw arent they. She was thinking of maybe having children one day and naming one of em after her mom. Poor gal. Well, at least we wont have another female wc protag end up being reduced to mom. Let's hope that the erins handle this not absolutely horribly.

Tigerstar: its fiiiine that im still in control of the RC territory i mean look how much i have helped them look how great they are doing with me!

River Clan: *is in complete fucking shambles*

[everybody-loves-purdy]

Ooh you think splashtail’s family are directly involved? Tell us all your theories!

Ok so this might end up being a long post so I apologise for that. But basically every suspicious RiverClan cat that we know of has been part of the same extended family, so in recent days my sister and I have been discussing a theory in which this whole conspiracy is a family working together in order to get power.

Right so first things first: the family. Here is a family tree I quickly whipped up (Anyone with an X in their name is dead).

So right off the bat (and this is where things could fall apart if my memory is off) but every single suspicious cat we have been presented with so far is part of this extended family.

We all know how Duskfur, Mallownose, Splashtail, and Curlfeather could be considered suspicious. But also Podlight and Fognose are not in the clear (despite their lack of narrative focus) due to them being on the patrol that Reedwhisker went missing on. And even Brackenpelt was very vocally against Mistystar in the argument that killed her.

I think Petalfur’s parents and siblings are in the clear, she died moons ago and there’s no sign of any of suspicion from that side of the family.

I know it could be coincidence that all these suspicious cats are from the same extended family, but at the same time I find it weird that not a single (that I remember) non-family member has been presented as suspicious. And we know the Erins are looking at Frostpaw’s family tree since Owlnose was cited in-text as her uncle.

Speaking of Owlnose, why exactly did he choose specifically Splashtail as his deputy? I love Owlnose and I don’t want him to be in any way part of this conspiracy but it’s a question that’s kept coming back to me. It’s not even like he hesitated, he immediately named Splashtail as his deputy, but why? If it is a family affair then there is a good chance Owlnose at least knows something and this deputyship wasn’t coincidental.

The cat connecting both these sides of the family is Jayclaw, who has been dead for a while with a suspicious lack of clarity on how he exactly died presented to us. But I feel like he could have been involved somehow, even if someone ended up murdering him I feel like that would be due to him trying to back out or something.

And I don’t think every single cat in the family is knowingly involved either, but a significant number of them are.

My proposal is that this extended family wants to rule RiverClan, the plan was someone from each side of the family (Duskfur’s and Mallownose’s) would have been appointed to a position of power once Mistystar was manipulated into choosing someone as her deputy and then dying. So for example if Duskfur was made deputy she would have then made Mallownose her deputy once Mistystar passed or something. Frostpaw would be how exactly they got their chosen cat deputy in the first place, by giving her a false sign. But obviously Mistystar died unexpectedly and it all went south from there. The cats are aware of nepotism as we’ve seen last arc, ThunderClan has been completely family run for about 15 years now.

As for some of the finer details about this potential family conspiracy? I’m not sure. I think Curlfeather’s death could have been the result of an internal disagreement and Splashtail someone acted alone in killing her. Jayclaw is the cat that connects these two families together but he’s been dead for moons, what was his involvement in all this, how did he die? Was he killed on purpose to make Frostkit’s visions seem more real? But why would he be killed if he was the centrepiece of this family and this conspiracy? Did he get cold feet at the thought of using his daughter as a tool?

At the very least this family theory could explain how exactly Splashtail and Fognose are involved seeing as the process of trying to make Frostkit look like a medicine cat would have begun when they were apprentices.

I’m sorry if this come across as rambly or anything, I hope I’ve gotten this theory across well enough.