#'was curlfeather right in all she did?' no

[ploverpaw]

Okay I'll speak a thought

It's hard for me to take 'does Curlfeather deserve to go to The Dark Forest' seriously because I believe the dark forest is an inherently flawed system no cat really deserves to go to

It's hammered in that it's an entirely horrible place to exist in, and there's no incentive or opportunities for cats to change their ways, learn better, or get help if a lack of it contributed to their actions already. And even when they do manage to do so, there's still no hope for them. They're still stuck in Cat Hell, surrounded !!for eternity!! by the unmonitored violence of the other df cats.

The only cat who got close as far as I know was Juniperclaw, who has to serve Starclan in a tunnel forever without ever being allowed to join them.

Seemingly, the only way for these cats to really change their situation from there is by breaking through on their own, usually through the use of violence, so I'm Not surprised the great battle [OOTS] came about.

Not to mention if we go off what we learned of Snowtuft in TBC, they don't even remember what they did to be in the dark forest after enough time has passed, so at that point it seems exceedingly cruel.

Of course these cats, including Curlfeather, deserve to face consequences for their actions, but the dark forest seems like a pointless way of just causing more pain for the sake of it. And it's the same punishment regardless of the crime, while we know many cats who arguably do things of the same severity are allowed into Starclan just fine

I could say so much more I have so many thoughts but I don't want this to get too long

look at this

[clanborn]

star climax that i would personally enjoy: splashtail's got frostpaw pinned in their final confrontation, he's this close to finally killing her, and all of frostpaw's fears culminate and leave her frozen, unable to struggle free. curlfeather, through sheer willpower ignited by this immediate threat to her daughter's life, summons all the energy she can muster to project her image into the physical world, visible to both splash and frost. her sheer fury, her mangled corpse--here, present, clawing her way out of splashtail's dreams and into a waking nightmare, here to drag him down to hell with her--spooks splashtail to the core. this either frightens him so bad he suffers cardiac arrest, or he instantly bolts and abandons the clans forever (for the case where he could be brought back as a villain who is ideally no longer lame). once more, curlfeather saves frostpaw's life, this time from beyond the grave, so great is her love for her daughter. with the image of her bloodied mother burned in her mind, frostpaw's conflicted feelings bubble to the surface, feelings she's desperately forced underneath a layer of anger and resentment. frostpaw faces the truth: that her mother manipulated her for her own gain, but also that her mother loved her, and ultimately cared for frostpaw more than her own life. curlfeather was not entirely good or bad, she was simply just a cat, a flawed one, one capable of both good and bad things. hidden in all of her misdeeds was a cat that could be forgiven--and in turn, frostpaw too could be forgiven, and no longer needs to blame herself for every misfortune that had befallen her and her clan. frostpaw is also just a cat, a child under incredible duress, forced to make decisions that no child should have to make. she thinks of every cat that pushed that responsibility onto her--yes, her mother, but also splashtail, her older clanmates, every clan cat around the lake that turned a blind eye to her desperation. even starclan--her all knowing, benevolent ancestors--had stood by while she suffered, had caused her suffering, had used her not unlike the way curlfeather had. what made them different? why was curlfeather punished by cats who were no better? why was frostpaw punished for doing everything right? what distinction did starclan make between "good" and "bad" when all cats were capable of both, including starclan, in all its alleged, unerring kindness?

frostpaw once again does starclan's bidding, touches her nose to the moonpool and receives her nine lives. with each life, cats flash before her vision--harelight, riverstar, jayclaw--but they aren't the cats she sees. in her mind she sees curlfeather, blood on her paws and love in her eyes, and newly named froststar decides what sort of leader she will be. this is the last time she will follow starclan's path, no more will riverclan be subject to their will and their hypocrisies. relying on starclan is what destroyed them, their ancestors standing idle as riverclan tore itself apart for their favor. no more will riverclan force warriors and apprentices in certain roles, no more will it allow complacency, letting desperate voices go unheard. splashtail rejected starclan, but that is not what drove his bloodthirst and desire for power. under froststar's leadership, power would not solely lie in the paws of her and starclan, but shared among her clanmates, unable to be ripped away by a lone instigator, shattered by a single break in the chain.

maybe she'll be the kind of leader curlfeather wanted to be. maybe she'll be better. either way, froststar will lead riverclan into a golden dawn.

[bonefall]

The more I consider the "Smoky gets Frostpaw sterilized against her will" thing, the more I dislike it even on a thematic level...

This book seems to be trying to put Frostpaw through an arc of learning to trust people. Riverstar magically appears in her dreams to send her to the Park Cats who are meant to teach her this lesson, but... starting and resolving that arc more than halfway through the book was sloppy, and a waste.

Instead of Smoky forcing medical treatment on her in spite of how she tells him point blank "please no," SHE should have called for the human.

A creature that the Clan cats have never trusted, that they have great reason to fear. Caught between dying with her pride like a good warrior and taking a risk on the kindness of an unknowable beast, in spite of all the betrayal, she chooses the chance.

Play it like this; Make it so the reason she becomes chosen by Riverstar at all is because he SEES this glimmer of potential within her, because of this very choice.

Instead of that bizarre opening chapter where he seems to have magically gifted her some kind of spiritual connection as a plot device, INSTEAD make it that they were sadly overseeing the end of her life. That this was her destiny, to die as a young, proud warrior apprentice. To trust no cat, as her mother told her.

But instead, she tricks the wording of the self-fulfilling prophecy Curlfeather told her. It said nothing about trusting a human!

THEN follow it up with teaching her how to trust cats again. But make the road down this character arc be something she truly initiated, instead of the weird bullshit they did with her being mad at Smoky for violating her consent while also exonerating him for "Doing The Right Thing :)"

[stickstone]

I’ll give you some additional Curlfeather feels: Re-read Mistystar’s Omen where she’s just innocent little Curlkit. At that point, she was just babey, and Duskfur hugging her and Podkit with her tail protectively was so cute 🥺 And then she and Podkit get into a lil kitten argument, and Duskfur jokes with Mistystar about raising kits, and little did she know what her kits would become. And she also squeaked and played in the mud and was just a fuzzy babey kitten who Mosspelt, a perm-queen at this point, probably also doted on her and her brother

There’s always just something so chilling about going back and reading about tragic characters/villains during their carefree kit and apprentice days in older books. I love torturing myself with that lmao

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

god i love going back and seeing scenes like that that. were not intended to be sad or important when they were written, but looking back? holy shit

i get the same massive hit of sadness reading berryheart’s scenes from avos and tigerheart’s shadow… like look at this quote

“That's the trouble, Rippletail. I'm not all right. None of us are. But we can be. StarClan will guide us. We just...we can't give up. As long as we don't give up, sooner or later...StarClan will guide us home.” - Berryheart

something so fascinating about seeing her unshakable faith in starclan and shadowclan portrayed as a beacon of hope in one book… when in a few more books it will become the same thing that makes her a villain

[wc-confessions]

Wanted to say this in response to the “Curlfeather is morally grey/isn’t morally grey” topic—

Curlfeather still loves Frostpaw. She even risked her life giving up her own to save Frostpaw from the dogs. She conspired the plan with Splashtail in order to make RiverClan better, as we all know StarClan is rather shady in their own practices (see Leafpool and Squirrelflight’s trial). The Clans need to start trusting and relying on themselves more rather than in the faith of dead cats who have in canon, put cats like Ashfur in StarClan because he “loved too much”, have given Tigerstar his nine lives despite in canon giving Pinestar the omen that he would be a monster, have refused to give Nightpelt his own nine lives when he stepped up to be leader because according to StarClan Brokenstar was still the leader of ShadowClan, and again they put Leafpool and Squirrelflight on trial for listening to them and having the prophesied litter that saved the Clans from the Dark Forest. StarClan is getting ridiculous and the amount of faith the Clam cats put in them needs to be diminished.

She IS morally grey because she is doing what she believes is best for the Clan. She’s doing a necessary evil to free RiverClan from remaining in the state of obeying dead ancestors who commit shady practices and rules. On the other hand, yes she brought Frostpaw into the plan to take over RiverClan. But again, she still loves her, and again, gave up her life to save Frostpaw. To say she didn’t or never loved her own daughter would be false. If she didn’t love Frostpaw, she could’ve left her to the dogs. But, she didn’t. Yes, her practices on how she carried out the take over RiverClan plan can be debated. But to argue that she is an awful mother through on through isn’t accurate. And it is misogyny that some people hate her, because god forbid we have a she-cat in the series who is actually interesting. Moonkitti actually did a very good video on this topic, and while I disagree that Crowfeather was worse because pain olympics are not right and we should not be equating different kinds of evils against each other in some sort of justice olympics (we can all agree Crowfeather is a shitty dad but we shouldn’t be fighting over who “had it worse” or “was worse”) her point that Curlfeather still loved Frostpaw and is still her mother stands.

ㅤ

[bonebabbles]

What's your overall opinion on Thunder? (If you finished reading it) Despite a having a few issues with it personally, (such as Frostpaw deciding to become a med cat again (GIRL WHAT) and the Smokey stuff), I honestly really enjoyed it! I loved reading from Sunbeam's and Frostpaw's perspective, and actually like what they did with the park cats! They are silly, even if a little boring! :)

I really, really hope they explore Curlfeather more in the future!

I'm currently on Chapter 12 and... honestly I'm mostly just bored.

One traveling book per arc is already waaaaay too much. I'm not enjoying Frostpaw and Nightheart's chemistry at all, and it's frustrating that Tree is now suddenly part of the plot because they just suddenly remembered that they have an entire role dedicated to stopping conflict. Seeing StarClan NOW is also a huge disappointment, because I'd been liking this arc so much exactly because it was more grounded.

I keep wanting to skip chapters to get back to Sunbeam. I KNOW that Nightheart is Not Orange and still feels the need to pitch a fit over his mom having "high expectations" that were never actually on-screen. Frostpaw herself would be fun if she wasn't constantly brawling with travel filler and Riverstar/StarClan being obtuse.

And, knowing none of this is actually building anywhere and that I'm in store for a frustrating end-of-book gathering that doesn't really tie into the actions of the main characters, it's hard to care at all. That's my REALLY big problem right now. None of this matters, because Berryheart's gambit is something she's deciding entirely off-screen, uninfluenced and unobserved by ANY of the POVs.

What exactly is the point of THREE POVs, one of them seeing mere glimpses of the plot, and two of them witnessing the same exact sidequest? While one of the sidequest POVs doesn't actually DO anything because it's not even his sidequest?

Basically; sorry man I'm not having a good time here.

[warriorkittiecats]

Also I find the 180 in Splashtail's behavior a little weird.

Like, don't get me wrong, it makes sense that his mask would start slipping when he finally has power in his grasp. But this much?

He very silently and subtly killed Reedwhisker and Curlfeather and tried to do the same with Frostpaw (even though she got away) but instead of, like, pushing Harelight off a cliff and saying he "ran away" like the other "traitors", Splashclaw just murders a clanmate in front of everyone?

And WHY did Splashtail admit to knowing Curlfeather was involved with killing Reedwhisker? Nobody wanted to believe Curlfeather would do such a thing, but instead of hiding behind her reputation and maybe getting Duskfur, Mistpaw, and Greypaw on side by admonishing Frostpaw's "betrayal" of her mothers memory, Splashtail decides to go "Yeah Frostpaw's totally right about Curlfeather doing it but I wasn't involved" instead of making Frostpaw look completely crazy and/or awful?

Also it would have been SO easy for him to just keep his mouth shut about Starclan. He easily could have faked respect for Starclan and lied to everyone instead of putting it off forever until all the medicine cats thought he was guilty? And then he starts publicly disrespecting Starclan too? And evil monologuing at the moonpool instead of thinking about the possibility that he was followed??

It's just weird to me, idk. If Splashtail was set up as being sloppy, aggressive, and egotistical from the start, then sure. But he wasn't. He got away with his murders well, he manipulated Frostpaw semi decently, and he put on a good enough face to get all the was to defacto leader..

But then he just suddenly drops all subtlety and starts evil laughing killing everyone saying blasphemous things in the middle of camp, and all for what?

[exocynraku]

thunder spoilers under the cut!!! read at your own risk!!! here are my opinions on the book!!! i wrote this right after reading originally on the 4th and planned 2 post it on the 7th. it's not the 7th exactly where i live but the wiki updated with spoilers since it's the 7th over there so whatever

okay, so, overall, i liked it. i didnt LOVE it, but i liked it. sunbeams chapters were all great, and with nightheart travelling with frostpaw, he finally had the chance to not be an ass, and he wasn't as bad! i actually read his chapters this time, and oh my god frostpaws chapters were INCREDIBLE!!!! i loved her interactions with whistlepaw and smoky, and wow. she did get spayed, LOL! got spoiled for that early (thanks, assholes!) i was NOT expecting to meet the new cats of the park! i totally thought we'd encounter warriorclan! i'm a little bummed about that, but the cats of the park were all super nice to read about which was super nice. especially bee! thought i'm upset she has the same name as another cat.. wails the reveal of splashtail i totally expected, but i'm a little surprised over curlfeather. i know that there's been suspect she was a villain, but damn! i wanted to hold onto hope! but hey, her being evil is super interesting. plus, wow! she's in the dark forest! i guess i shouldve expected that, but it's felt like forever since a cat got sent there. (which i dont think is rlly true? juniperclaw went i think that was tbc? whatever, still feels so long ago) also i didnt mind that it was a travelling book! i know a lot of ppl HATEEEE travelling books, but i think there was still enough substance to make it interesting! now, that ending... er, hard to explain my feelings. i like cliffhangers because they make me really excited for the next book, but man! this one hurt bad! i want frostpaw to jump out !!!! raugh!!! also, waffle and wasp are cute! i'm happy theyre coming to the clans! we NEED more genetic diversity SOBS and honestly, with frostpaws thoughts right before leaving the park, with the clans needing to become less harsh and fighty, and more open, especially to outsiders? that was incredible! genuinely, genuinely incredible! and i hope they go through with it, i really do! berryheart is also an interesting character. if i'm being honest, i hope she leaves. not becaues i dont like her (i think she's one of the most interesting characters we've had in the series for a long time, even if she sucks), but because like i said earlier we NEED more genetic diversity in the clans! more cats with long blood lines need to leave or die, and new cats w/o long blood lines, or none at all need to start existing. all of the incest is pissing me off. so i'm glad that somecat with not a particularly long bloodline, but a big one (berryheart has like 70 siblings) is leaving. plus those other cats. last misc things, finally, some tree action! it's a miracle! i also like how there were mentions of 1: thunderclan being overcrowded (please please please mass exctinction event GO) and 2: tree being mediator, but never really having the chance to shine. also, cherryfall sucks. jeez louise! i used to like her for gods sake! spotfur and her kits were adorable, i liked ivypool in this book, and oh my god, brambleclaw finally gets less of a spotlight! overall, i liked it. not the most amazing book to ever exist ever, but it definitely got my excited for the next books!!! really happy with ASC so far and i'm pumped to see what's going to happen with it in the future.

also, with the cats of the park cats being introduced, i'll have to draw them! oh boy more work for me to do

[the-owl-tree]

Man, I WISH Nightheart being whiny had payoff. Like it would've been a great wakeup call if he was complaining about Sparkpelt and Frostpaw just. Glares at him and goes.. "My mother is dead! She- she was eaten by dogs, and I- she told me to trust no cat, and you're acting like your mother who- who's still alive, who just wanted you to grow up to be a beloved and respected figure in our history is a awful cat? I wish Curlfeather was still here to tell me things like that!" And sure, maybe it doesn't snap him out of it completely right away (because it'd be uninteresting if he did a completely 180 with his flaws then and there), but it does give him pause.. He thinks Sparkpelt struggling through PPD, wanting him to succeed in life, and being exiled and unable to interact with him, even when she pleaded to stay is bad..but here he is, seeing a (justifiably) upset Frostpaw, grieving her mother. Is his resentment towards Sparkpelt truly justified?

Maybe he needs to reconsider things, and how he treated her before his mom dies too, thinking he doesn't care about her at all even if she cares about him..

this would be a lovely development for their prior conversation (which. funnily enough cements to me they're still going to make me think sparkpelt was in the wrong) where the two bond over pressure from their mother's "ambitions" (seriously. what ambitions. what did sparkpelt want. girlie has gone through too much for this) and the full extent of curlfeather's manipulation is revealed. it would help nightheart put things into perspective (i am still clinging onto him realizing he's just holding onto unjustified anger....blease. im so tired of the narrative trying to recycle this conflict over and over again).

but thunder has not made me confident as they shower me with news that nightheart is god's most special little guy

[theblankest123]

Some random thoughts on the thunder leak we got so far

The way the person wrote it, it really sounds like Splashtail is actually genuenly alarmed and in horror with Frostpaw dissapearing and then Whistlepaw telling him that she got carried off by a buzzard. Like that seems like a bit of a weird of a guy that we suspect of attacking frostpaw with the intention of murder. Makes me wonder if Splashtail was not the one that attacked her? Maybe he genuienly thought of Frostpaw as a good asset to him becoming a leader and did not actually want her dead? Does he know who might have attackled her but cannot comment on it? Very curious.....

Sunbeam i hope you dump your impulsive ass bf but stay in TC with your brand new adopted family. The way they all support her a ton and the way how she seems to both enjoy and be good at mentoring, doing the task, it sounds cute as hell. Someone mentioned that she might be given one of the kits as an apprentice to signify that TC trusts her which hell yeah thatd be great :]

Didnt really like how they tried to make squirrelflight at the time sound unreasonable with Bramble being the reasonable one in that one chapter after the first moonpool visit failed, wether it was the person writing it in the forum or the book, but alas. Ooooo Brambe is the reasonable one and Squirrelflight/star is SOOOO unreasonable therefore bramble is in the right always and squirrel is wrong and bad. Like shuddup. Hope thats not what they were going with. Either way a minor pet peeve its just bramblesquirrel arguing again like always

Frostpaw my girl my beloved little gal. Ily. She is now the chosen cat by starclan tasked to go on a journey, break riverclan appart and then rebuild it. Little girl's gonna fuck shit up hell yeah

Curlfeather is absolutely in darkforest kitty hell isnt she. Ooo man. And starclan did not want to tell Frostpaw that because oof she is already going through a lot lets not drop that bomb on her juuust yet, she'll figure out that her mom was doing shady things and might have been involved in Reed's death eventually.

They are absolutely gonna use the being spayed plot point as a means to cause a bit more angst for Frostpaw arent they. She was thinking of maybe having children one day and naming one of em after her mom. Poor gal. Well, at least we wont have another female wc protag end up being reduced to mom. Let's hope that the erins handle this not absolutely horribly.

Tigerstar: its fiiiine that im still in control of the RC territory i mean look how much i have helped them look how great they are doing with me!

River Clan: *is in complete fucking shambles*

[everybody-loves-purdy]

Ooh you think splashtail’s family are directly involved? Tell us all your theories!

Ok so this might end up being a long post so I apologise for that. But basically every suspicious RiverClan cat that we know of has been part of the same extended family, so in recent days my sister and I have been discussing a theory in which this whole conspiracy is a family working together in order to get power.

Right so first things first: the family. Here is a family tree I quickly whipped up (Anyone with an X in their name is dead).

So right off the bat (and this is where things could fall apart if my memory is off) but every single suspicious cat we have been presented with so far is part of this extended family.

We all know how Duskfur, Mallownose, Splashtail, and Curlfeather could be considered suspicious. But also Podlight and Fognose are not in the clear (despite their lack of narrative focus) due to them being on the patrol that Reedwhisker went missing on. And even Brackenpelt was very vocally against Mistystar in the argument that killed her.

I think Petalfur’s parents and siblings are in the clear, she died moons ago and there’s no sign of any of suspicion from that side of the family.

I know it could be coincidence that all these suspicious cats are from the same extended family, but at the same time I find it weird that not a single (that I remember) non-family member has been presented as suspicious. And we know the Erins are looking at Frostpaw’s family tree since Owlnose was cited in-text as her uncle.

Speaking of Owlnose, why exactly did he choose specifically Splashtail as his deputy? I love Owlnose and I don’t want him to be in any way part of this conspiracy but it’s a question that’s kept coming back to me. It’s not even like he hesitated, he immediately named Splashtail as his deputy, but why? If it is a family affair then there is a good chance Owlnose at least knows something and this deputyship wasn’t coincidental.

The cat connecting both these sides of the family is Jayclaw, who has been dead for a while with a suspicious lack of clarity on how he exactly died presented to us. But I feel like he could have been involved somehow, even if someone ended up murdering him I feel like that would be due to him trying to back out or something.

And I don’t think every single cat in the family is knowingly involved either, but a significant number of them are.

My proposal is that this extended family wants to rule RiverClan, the plan was someone from each side of the family (Duskfur’s and Mallownose’s) would have been appointed to a position of power once Mistystar was manipulated into choosing someone as her deputy and then dying. So for example if Duskfur was made deputy she would have then made Mallownose her deputy once Mistystar passed or something. Frostpaw would be how exactly they got their chosen cat deputy in the first place, by giving her a false sign. But obviously Mistystar died unexpectedly and it all went south from there. The cats are aware of nepotism as we’ve seen last arc, ThunderClan has been completely family run for about 15 years now.

As for some of the finer details about this potential family conspiracy? I’m not sure. I think Curlfeather’s death could have been the result of an internal disagreement and Splashtail someone acted alone in killing her. Jayclaw is the cat that connects these two families together but he’s been dead for moons, what was his involvement in all this, how did he die? Was he killed on purpose to make Frostkit’s visions seem more real? But why would he be killed if he was the centrepiece of this family and this conspiracy? Did he get cold feet at the thought of using his daughter as a tool?

At the very least this family theory could explain how exactly Splashtail and Fognose are involved seeing as the process of trying to make Frostkit look like a medicine cat would have begun when they were apprentices.

I’m sorry if this come across as rambly or anything, I hope I’ve gotten this theory across well enough.

[bonefall]

Since Mapleshade mostly targets the applekin, would she have hypothetically tried to go for silverstream and possibly Stormier, assuming she was aware of them?

She did go after Silverstream. She got her, even. Interesting that she went into premature labor on Sunningrocks, so far away from a Cleric, isn't it?

And all of Mistyfoot's damn children too-- she was able to drown Perchkit young, but then that damn orange blister and his fuzzy-headed fleabag plucked Reedkit and Pikekit from the river.

But that's okay. She can be patient.

And she can set a fuzzy-minded fool on her path away from camp, right into the paws of Tigerclaw, to reveal an old secret. She can make sure he witnesses the saving of old Bluestar, too. What good ammo for accusations such a situation makes.

Stormpaw, Featherpaw, Mistyfoot, Stonefur. All of the Applekin, in one spot, in a cage built by TigerClan. She was SO close to wiping them all out at once. She had to settle with Pikepaw, making sure his murderers were never identified, and Primrosepaw later by the same, unknown killers.

But the last one, Reedwhisker... he was too lucky for her. Too pious. She kept pulling him into the river, and he kept pulling himself out. Or BEING pulled out. And he was too clever with his own kits, though he was emotionally distant, he made sure both of them knew how to call to their ancestors... in ways both dark and light.

One of them, at some point, certainly took the flesh of an adder to set Frecklewish on her. Like a guard dog. How DARE they!!

Mapleshade can't see Stormfur, so far away, but she does slobber maliciously at Graypaw, Mistpaw, and Frostpaw. Curlfeather and Podlight would be a bonus, if she could find some way to get rid of them.

And that's where she's at, now.

[sparrowlovesskittles]

Shadow spoilers under the cut

Review time!

Holy fuck it was SO GOOD.

THINGS I ENJOYED

THE FROG SCENE. My new favourite warriors moment. I need to draw Nightheart with a frog suckered onto his face. Incredible. Nightheart is such a silly goofy guy and I'm so glad he gets to do stupid things each book.

SPLASHTAIL!!!!!! This is a BIG one for me, and ohhhh he was so evil it was so GOOD. We really got to see his manipulative side come out here and I adored it

Splashtail rejecting Frostpaw because it would be weird to date an apprentice. It's a small thing, but it's nice to have a little bit of canon saying hey. Stop.

Frostpaw slowly realising something is Wrong in RiverClan, but still turning to Splashtail because he built up trust between them. It's so clever and dark

Harelight! I like the guy and I'm glad he gets a little bit of spotlight. It's also nice to see him telling Frostpaw that he can help her learn to disguise her pale coat, I feel like I haven't seen that mentioned in a while.

Cloverfoot mentioning how Mistystar decorated her den with shells and feathers!!

Frostpaw getting to girlboss a bit. It was nice! She knows what's right for her and you CANNOT change her mind!

HER ENDING????? OH MY GOD I feel stupid but I did NOT see that coming I was so shocked it was like Curlfeather all over again LMAO. Why did they wait until she was right outside WindClan though. She'll be found and live. I highly doubt they'd kill off their best protagonist on book 3.

The trials! I know they were maybe a bit boring but I actually liked seeing them, AND seeing Berryheart get more and more pissed off throughout the book LMAO. Hilarious how they gave Nightheart a trial he basically already did last book (stealing from the twolegs)

Tigerstar hates socks

Berryheart. She's terrible. It's fun.

Sunbeam is still a pushover. Sure she stands up for herself a bit more now, but she usually chooses to back down in the face of conflict. I'm glad she's kept her personality after getting with Nightheart, which leads me to...

Sunbeam and Nightheart's relationship. I actually thought they were written okay for once. Sunbeam is not so sure about him at first (and is reasonably upset he publicly declared his love for her and decided to move in with her without consulting her first) but we actually get to see her come to appreciate him more. It's not the strongest romance obviously, but for warrior cats, the way it was handled in this book (not the other two) was actually not that bad, and I didn't mind that they stayed together in the end. I liked seeing them spend time together and I liked the way they described each other's personality traits. Sunbeam thinking Nightheart's confidence was attractive, and Nightheart thinking about how he'll miss her cleverness and courage more than anything else. I dunno, I felt pleasantly surprised.

Nightheart realising he was being unreasonable and coming to understand his family's reasons for acting the way they did, and especially the way he reconciled with Sparkpelt! They both got a chance to apologise and forgive each other (and themselves) and it was really nice to see.

Sunbeam saying Blazefire 'broke up' with her?? Warriors never uses this casual language for relationships, especially when they weren't even officially mates to begin with, it was kinda jarring to see but I liked it

THINGS I DID NOT ENJOY

Nightheart's sudden switch back to ThunderClan feels sudden and unearned. He was literally fighting with Sparkpelt and Finchlight earlier in the book and then at some point he realised he was wrong for that off screen. Also I was kind of unreasonably irritated that he failed his last task on purpose lmao

Frostpaw not telling anyone anything. Frostpaw please talk to people.

WHY DID EVERYONE FORGET ABOUT TREE??????? WHY ISN'T TREE MEDIATING??????????????

MIXED FEELINGS

Squirrelstar. While I'm happy Bramblestar is stepping down, I'm not jazzed about Squirrelstar. I like Squirrelflight, but she's been around a long time now and I want someone newer. To be honest, I'm basically waiting for the older characters to die out at this point, and if Squirrelflight's going to stick around for the next several arcs, she's going to become the next Mistystar.

Sunbeam moving to ThunderClan. While I predicted this would happen, and it's kind of fun for now, it means we now have two perspectives in ThunderClan AGAIN. I am begging warrior cats to let go of ThunderClan. Having two POV characters in the same overused clan is not as fun as they think it is. Also, Sunbeam saying 'Berryheart was right about everything' then immediately changing her mind was kinda disappointing. Let Sunbeam have a villain arc.

[nightly-ruse]

For anyone wondering what I have spent my whole day one-

Have my reworked, half canon, family tree for WC. It is very large so keep that in mind (a whole 306 cats!!). Mostly for me but I also feel like it’s fun to look at. I’d suggest just searching specific cats it works out the best.

Family Tree

The Name Changes

Sparkpelt to Sparkfire

Nightheart to Nightshade

Finchlight to Finchflight

Mosskit to Mosspelt

Violetshine to Violetshade

Twigbranch to Twigsprig

Tigerheartstar to Goldenheart

Ivypool to Ivyclaw

Breezepelt to Breezestrike

Pebbleshine to Pebblepad

Stormtail to Stormgrowl

Snowfur to Snowstorm

Whitetail to Ospreytail

Finchflight (ShC) to Roachflight

Odder Changes

TreeVioletDragonfly polycule purely taken from @bonefall ‘s big brain

Ivyclaw and Rosepetal. Came to me while doing the tree and now it’s on there. Don’t ask about how they have kits the litter is just theirs alright?

WillowHeatherHollyCinder polycule will stay no one can stop me they are all lesbians and dating

Mille situation. Briarlight and Blossomfall are the slightly older siblings of Bumblestripe and non Graystripe kittens. She was just expecting and had them soon after joining Thunderclan and then a few moons later had Bumblestripe.

JayPoppy. I had a lot of trouble finding a pairing that worked as the parents for Spotfur and Sorrelstripe since I needed to move them out of the big LionCinder litter so they were tucked there. Poppyfrost just says their hers and no one is to question this.

AlderVelvetPuddle polycule and also Velvet as a church cat. Idk I liked them a lot. Also needed a change to Pouncestep’s parentage bc I wanted just Lightleap and Shadowsight as GoldenDove kittens so she’s secretly Velvet’s kitten that Dove adopted at the church.

Brokenstar. Just Brokenstar. He needed kittens and Fernshade wanted them too so the pair had Badgerkit and Batkit but once Fern saw what he was doing she tried to get them out, Batkit did and was left at the Thunderclan border soon to be swept up by a patrol but Badgerkit didn’t. He died as just a kitten in the fate Fernshade feared. Displeased by his heirs gone Broken and Newt paired up to have Rowanclaw.

Heatherstar is now the sister of Palebird and mother of Onestar. Her only kitten to survive, and we’ve seen she likes more on the nose names so she named him Onekit. Windclan has a bloodline based leadership thing going on. Onewhisker had his one-sided divorce with Firestar and got with Smoke to have Darktail and Heathertail, Smoke refused to let him abandoned her entirely and made him take Heather. He then to save face has another litter with Whitewing being Harestar and Kestrelflight

AshHawkReed bc I said so. After the death of Hawkfrost, Reedwhisker still wanted a family so he had one with Duskfur being Curlfeather and Podlight.

CrookedBlue rights. Bluestar is still aro and she gives all three of her kittens to Crookedstar at the border, Mosskit barely surviving. Moss goes on to be Mosspelt a permanent queen! CrookedWillow is still canon with Silverstream

[t4twnyclaw]

ASC THUNDER SPOILERS

i may be stupid but genuinely did not expect that curlfeather was the mastermind of sorts behind reedwhiskers murder. its the first time we see a FEMALE character go to the darkforest. mapleshade was in the past and the only other female dark forest cat is a random cat in the broken code arc. (Tigerstar, Darkstripe and Ashfur were all characters that were alive and active in the series, and while Curlfeather...wasn't that active compared to them its still nice to see women go to hell.)

also...i dont like sunbeam. I was iffy before but she really reads as a bristlefrost clone but with an abusive mother. speaking of berryheart. she was *vile* dovewing had every right to kick her out of SC. she was spewing racist nonsense as if Dovewing and Tawnypelt weren't originally from TC.

anyway to 'fix' sunbeam -> GIVE HER THE JOURNEY ARC. Have her leave to discover herself instead of giving that to Nightheart. Give her FRIENDS (aside from Lightleap) from SC that makes it actually difficult for her to choose between TC and SC. Having her go on the journey with Frostpaw instead of Nightheart would've made SO MUCH MORE SENSE-- the idea that the way the warrior code currently is and the way rules are restricting and can do more damage than good needs to be taught/told to her so she can apply this to herself in switching clans and whatnot.

and ANOTHER THING. i miss lightleap and i know its been a few books but I really wish we did have a SC POV so we can see the TigerDove family spiral/change after Rowankits death.

[stargleam-star]

My thoughts on Wind

Finally finished reading book 4 of A Starless Clan. I've got a lot of opinions on it, as expected. It's going to be long and rambly. There will be major spoilers under the read more. My thoughts might only make sense to me so I understand if nobody wants to read this, but I really want to get out my feelings on this book

Shout out to @shadowfern for sending me the link to the pdf! Tysm again!!!

Let's start this off by talking about the best girl in the whole world: Frostpaw. Oh my sweet baby. They really put her Through It this book. She was so right to come forward during the gathering in chapter one to speak out against Splashtail.

But then Duskfur. Oooh my god Duskfur. Literally what was her fucking damage? Frostpaw is her freaking GRANDDAUGHTER. But I guess because Frostpaw mentioned Curlfeather being an evil mastermind, Duskfur was pissed about it? Which is understandable. Who wants to hear that their child is a murderer, someone who organized the death of important figures in your society?

But then she goes on to accuse Frostpaw of being a liar and a manipulator because *gasp* she was a manipulated teen who couldn't figure out what was right and what was wrong!? She was tricked by Curlfeather into being a medicine cat, as Splashtail reiterates. She does eventually get real visions, though. However, because she had a few false visions, nobody will believe her about them. But like. Frostpaw is a kid essentially, with not a lot of training yet, and who doesn't have much of a guide when it comes to visions because Mothwing doesn't get them. How was Frostpaw supposed to distinguish what was real and what was a dream all on her own?

Regardless Duskfur is a bitch in the first chapter who backs up Splashtail and his condescending speech about how much Frostpaw had been through and how much of a poir little meow meow she is because of it

And then she proceeds to get exiled. Her clanmates know she's been through so much, and yet they allow her to be cast out from her home away from the support of her family

A family which comprises of mostly bastards at this current moment, including Duskfur, Icewing, and Podlight. Shout out to the do-nothing siblings Graypaw and Mistpsw though

I hate the characterization of Icewing in this first chapter because she doesn't do much. Podlight is another creature entirely. He's so vile. Gives off evil henchman vibes, almost on the same wavelength as Darkstripe

I'll come back to those cats later, let's get back to talking about Frostpaw. After getting exiled she has to frantically look between the leaders to see who might take her into their clan, so she doesn't become a rogue. Squirrelstar almost agrees but because she doesn't want to cause trouble she hesitates (we'll also get back to this characterization later). Tigerheartstar instead offers Frostpaw a temporary place in Shadowclan

If I had a nickle for every time Tigerheartstar took in an exiled Riverclan medicine cat I'd have 2 nickles. Which isn't a lot but its weird it happened twice

I love the dynamic between Frostpaw and Shadowsight. I've seen people shipping them but I literally cannot picture them being romatic with each other. I get big brother little sister vibes from them. I feel like Puddleshine's wariness of Frostpaw was dumb, though.

Puddleshine did eventually come around, when he snuck to the moon pool with Frostpaw to see if Splashtail would go to get his nine lives. I hate how he didn't start believing Frostpaw until Riverstar appeared though. Splashtail and Podlight sitting around, laughing about how useless Starclan is and how they're literally at the moon pool just to say they went, doesn't convince Puddleshine that Frostpaw was telling the truth. But Riverstar hopping over their heads unseen just to wink at Puddleshine and Frostpaw convinces him. Ok.

Great job guiding the living btw Riverstar. Clearly not doing anything or saying anything beyond that one tiny scene was helpful

Anyways, Puddleshine, finally believing Frostpaw, goes with her to tell Tigerheartstar about everything was great. Actually I hate to say if but I really liked Tigerheartstar this book. He was literally the only tolerable and competent leader throughout the entire thing. Even better than Squirrelstar

Speaking of Squirrelstar. Oh boy.... What the hell did they do to her?

I expected the Erins to do one of four things with Squirrelstar. 1) Kill her by the end of this book (and say she lied about getting her nine lives). 2) Make her a very aggressive leader. 3) Leave her character alone and write her as she has been. Or 4) make her incompetent and have her be the first deposed leader

Instead, they made Squirrelstar the most do nothing leader imaginable. To the point where other characters in the text itself were mentioning how she's doing nothing at all, and how unexpected that is. Squirrelstar states she doesn't want to shake things up because of being a new leader. She's trying to gain the other leaders' respect

Which I could understand. If this was any other character in the entirety of warriors, minus Firestar. Squirrelflight was always the type to be headstrong doing things her own way, to follow her heart, and do what needs to be done especially for the good of others. Squirrelstar even mentions that about herself! "As Squirrelflight I'd agree with you. But as Squirrelstar I'm afraid I can't." There is literally no difference though, she's still the same cat!!!

I understand she's also trying to protect Thunderclan and keep her warriors safe. She's responsible for all these lives. But she was responsible for them before as well! She was deputy ffs. A clan deputy is responsible for the lives of their clanmates as much as a leader is. Squilf even acted as temporary leader, and still did not behave like this at that time! I don't understand why she had to be written as someone too hesitant to act because of fear of being judged. Squilf was literally never like that before until this book. She's basically a new character and I think I hated this most of all out of everything else in Wind.

Actually none of the leaders except Tigerheartstar want to act in this book. Squirrelstar and Harestar both want to wait to stop Splashtail until Riverclan is ready to stop him. In the old books though, if there was something going on in the other clans the leaders didn't like, they'd fight about it (for example: how Shadowckan and Winclan teamed up to raid Thunderclan after discovering they were housing Brokentail as their prisoner. Or how Lionclan first formed to stop Tigerstar from ruling over all the clans.)

Also now that I mention fighting, there are literally no battles waged in the entire book. The closest thing we get is the battle training in Riverclan camp where Splashtail was forcing cats to fight each other aggressively with claws out.

And the most violent 2 scenes in the book were when a tree fell on Winclan's nursery, and Splashtail killed Harelight in front of his clan because Harelight dared to have a different opinion than him

Harelight deserved better tbh. He was one of the best characters in the story and he barely had a part to play. Rip king

Let's talk about some other characters now. Nightheart for instance. He was actually also tolerable in this book. I like how his character has progressed. He's growing up and isn't as much of a jerk like he was in the beginning, good for him.

I liked his relationship with Wasp and Waffle. Though I'm surprised neither of them insisted on following Frostpaw. Especially with how determined Wasp was to become a Riverclan cat. I'm shocked he didn't loyally follow Frostpaw wherever she went due to her connection to Riverstar. Instead both cats went with Nightheart to Thunderclan which was fine for a while

Nightheart makes for a good mentor, surprisingly. I like the way he taught Wasp and Waffle about things. Though I don't like that he was chosen to be Wafflepaw's mentor. It makes sense, but like other characters said, the apprentices could have gone to more experienced cats than Nightheart and Co.

The relationship between Nightheart and Sunbeam is cute here and there but their chemistry is almost non existent. Sunbeam has more chemistry with Finchlight, Bayshine, and Myrtlebloom than Nightheart. Finchlight should steal Sunbeam from Nightheart sorry not sorry

Sunbeam's turn now. Once again her chapters felt the weakest compared to the other POVs. She doesn't really bring anything new to the table, her perspective shows nearly the same things Nightheart's does and her personality is kind of generic. The only thing she has is mommy angst, and love for Nightheart. She worries about her family in most of her chapters, when they don't really want her around unless she helps them and/or stays with them. Berryheart is especially mean towards Sunbeam. She feels betrayed, sure, but that's still her kid who's trying to heal the disgusting infection that slowly killing her. Look at that Sunbeam's so uninteresting I started talking about Berryheart instead. Let's dive into that more

I didn't think Berryheart would have that much influence over the plot anymore tbh. But this stupid cat is gripping it tightly with the tips if her grubby little paws refusing to let go. Throughout most of her mentioned moments she's slowly wasting away from a nasty wound she obtained by being too stubborn to get off the road. She refuses treatment from Sunbeam because she didn't agree with mommy dearest and follow her to exile so now Berryheart's basically disowned Sunbeam (its never stated but implied by her behavior).

Another reason Berryheart refuses medicine is because they are "clan herbs" and she refuses anything from the clans. Although idk how she was able to tell the herbs came from a clan vs Sunbeam finding them on her own but whatever. Then several chapters later she's magically joined Riverclan and proclaims to be one of the most loyal cats there??? Idk how Berryheart went from being a diehard Shadowclan loyalist, to a bitter rogue hating all the clans, to a Riverclan cat. Sunbeam thinks it might be due to Berryheart fighting to survive but by the time she's shown in Riverclan she seems almost back to full health. Maybe she's planning to destroy the clans now, from the inside out, starting with Riverclan. Who knows. I guess we'll find out in the next book or two. I'm disappointed Berryheart didn't die and that they're continuing on with her as a villain. I'm on the fence of whether I like her being a villain anymore. On one hand, yay a villain who's clanborn and a female. On the other, she's a really annoying and a poorly written villain

Moving on to other, more minor characters: Mothwing Duskfur, and Icewing. We don't see much of them (especially past the first chapter). When we do, though, they're talking to Frostpaw about how right she is and how none of them want Splashtail in power anymore.

This is an especially surprisingly development from Duskfur who earlier was very outspoken about accepting him. The in-story excuse is that Riverclan just wanted a leader finally, and were willing to accept that Podlight suddenly wanted to be a healer and magically had a connection to Starclan which told him that Splashtail was their new ruler. The real excuse is that it's piss poor writing and the Erins make whatever cat do whatever is necessary for the plot, even if that means their personality needs to takes an entire 180 in the middle of the book.

Icewing is still pretty useless in the story, which is a shame because she had a decent roll last book. Mothwing's character stayed somewhat the same, though. She's still kind of mean to Frostpaw. She's sort of a do-nothing, too, but not as much as the leaders. She wants to make a change but doesn't act at first because then Riverclan would be left without a proper medicine cat, which is a more valid excuse for her inaction compared to Squirrelstar's, Tigerheartstar's, and Harestar's.

Lightleap was mentioned in one chapter and she had an attitude. What a tragedy. Blazefire and Dovewing weren't mentioned at all which was a huge loss, because we lovewing Dovewing here, and I just think Blazefire is neat (I like his name, I'm biased purely because of that)

Whistlepaw was really good in this book, as she was in the last. I feel like she was unjustly punished for helping Frostpaw as I stated in this post here, I won't repeat myself about that point again. I liked her during the Windckan chapters, when the tree fell on the nursery. Her mentioning the kit she was trying to save, Leafkit, was her baby sister was sooo nice. The Erins rarely write cats acknowledging younger siblings as such so that was cute. It made the worry and care Whisperpaw expressed during that scene all the better because it wasn't just a medicine cat trying to do their job and save someone. It was a sister desperately trying to get to their sister. Whistlepaw is my second favorite character in this arc next to Frostpaw and not just because of my next point.

Whistlepaw × Frostpaw is the most superior ship in the book, and dare I say throughout the current arc. Their dialog with each other once Sunbeam rescued Leafkit was so gay it was amazing. Like legit their interactions with each other here as well as through most of A Starless Clan have more chemistry than any other pairings do

Also this is random but I feel like either Whistlepaw or Leafkit will get a POV next arc. Probably Leafkit because the writers took the time to describe what she looks like even though Leafkit only appeared for this one scene. Please Erins give us a Winclan POV

I suppose I should talk about Splashtail now. He's a really lame villain tbh. I'm glad we have a clanborn bad guy for a change, but he literally sucks. He wants to be leader because he wants to make Riverclan stronger, great. And then he proceedes to do that by having his warriors beat the shit out of each other to toughen them up and make them seem like the strongest clan. Ok. Idk how that accomplishes anything rn. I'm sure this means Riverclan will get to cause the one fight scene that happens next book, hooray /s

No but seriously I see where this whole evil Splashtail plot is going. He doesn't like Starclan because he doesn't want to listen to what they say or follow their rules. The moral of this arc is going to be that following Starclan is the right thing to do, they are the ultimate good, and anybody who doesn't follow Starclan is a dirty heretic. It's christian religious propaganda and I'm tired of it, but whatever I'm to obsessed with these stupid cats to stop reading

Overall this book was very disappointing and boring. I'm sad to see this arc taking such a boring turn, and I'm worried about what the next books will bring. The arc was so promising and now it sucks, tragic

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Members of the Frostpaw Defense Club rise up!

I give this book 3/10 Stars