#“Theon wants to be Jon Snow but he can't do it” - GRRM

[amber-laughs]

“They’re dogs and he’s a wolf,” said Jon. “They know he’s not their kind.”

Lord Ramsay laughed. "You're not a man, Reek. You're just my creature. You'll have your wine, though. Walder, see to it. And fear not, I won't return you to the dungeons, you have my word as a Bolton. We'll make a dog of you instead. Meat every day, and I'll even leave you teeth enough to eat it. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

"I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first? A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

When Little Walder pulled him up and Big Walder waved the torch at him to herd him from the cell, he went along as docile as a dog. If he'd had a tail, he would have tucked it down between his legs. A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

"Aye. All that, and more. You are a warg too, they say, a skinchanger who walks at night as a wolf." King Stannis had a hard smile. "How much of it is true?" A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

That night, besides the collar, there was a ragged blanket too, and half a chicken. Reek had to fight the dogs for the meat, but it was the best meal he'd had since Winterfell. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

 The smells are stronger in my wolf dreams, he reflected, and food tastes richer too. Ghost is more alive than I am. He left the empty cup upon the forge. A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

The other man had been a good rider, but Reek was uneasy on horseback. It had been so long. He was no rider. He was not even a man. He was Lord Ramsay's creature, lower than a dog, a worm in human skin. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

“The Weeper’s red rheumy eyes gave Jon another look. “Aye? Well, he has a wolfish cast to him, now as I look close.” A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Reek," he said. "Your Reek." "Do this little thing for me, and you can be my dog and eat meat every day," Lord Ramsay promised.  A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

The taste of hot blood filled Jon's mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat. A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Damon Dance-for-Me sat greasing up his whip. "Reek," he called. He tapped the whip against his calf as a man might do to summon his dog. "You are starting to stink again, Reek." A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

"The beast," he gasped. "Look! The beast that tore the life from Halfhand. A warg walks among us, brothers. A WARG! This . . . this creature is not fit to lead us! This beastling is not fit to live!" A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

"You would have done better to slit his throat," said the lord in mail. "A dog who turns against his master is fit for naught but skinning." "Oh, he's been skinned, here and there," said Ramsay. A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

[thebeesareback]

Fuck it, let's talk about Littlefinger

(the ASOIAF character, not just fingers in general. Also, I've said "Brandon Stark" for Ned's brother, and "Bran Stark" for Ned's son)

Trigger warning: rape and forced abortion

So one of the things I've said before is that I love ASOIAF for many reasons, including the complexities and backstories of all the characters. I suppose that's why there's a bazillion characters and the books are so long.

Anyway, one interesting example of narrative framing is the perspective we get on Littlefinger. He's (arguably) the main antagonist in the first book and is responsible for everything from Jon Arryn and Ned's death to the Tyrell marriage to Joffrey's assassination. We see him as a scheming villain, determined to harm our saintly Starks.

Littlefinger was born as a second-generation immigrant and heir to a minor lordship. Thanks to his parents' relationship with fuckhead Hoster Tully, he got to foster at Riverrun, where he befriended Cat, Lysa and Edmure. The books are interested in the "outsider" perspective on power status, hence Jon Snow's POV, and arguably Theon and Arya, too. They live in the home, they're part of the family... kinda. Sansa always thinks of Jon as her "bastard half-brother", Theon knows that Ned might have to kill him, and Arya doesn't fit neatly into her assigned gender role. They see Rob and Sansa and want that, kind of, but know they'll never get it.

Therefore, in his youth, Littlefinger knew that he was smart, knew that he wanted power, yet was keenly aware that it was almost impossible for him to socially climb. He does -- we'll get to that in a bit -- but as a child, he knows it's unlikely. Think of Rob and Jon playing in Winterfell and Jon yelling "I'm the Lord of Winterfell" and Rob just returning "no, my mother says you won't be". It's a horrible situation to be in. We don't get Littlefinger's POV, but if we did, I think there's a good chance he would remember a similar scenario.

Then there's Littlefinger's relationship to Catlyn and Lysa. Little boys often have crushes on little girls, and it's usually pretty sweet and can sometimes become a nice romance or just fade away. We hear that Catlyn is intelligent and beautiful as an adult, so it's easy to see the appeal, and Catlyn also has status through her Tully blood and an understanding of Machiavellian power plays because her father raised her as his heir until Edmure was born. One could easily see Littlefinger's desire for Catlyn being a desire for power and status, as well as her own merits.

Lysa had a crush on Littlefinger, creating the incesty love triangle that GRRM loves so much. I can't imagine playing kissing games with a foster brother and a sister, tbh. Littlefinger himself seems to only see Lysa as a pawn, and uses her feelings to get her to do what she wants. The narrative suggests that, for a time, there's Catlyn, mourning her mother; Lysa, mourning her mother and interested in a boy who doesn't really care about her; Edmure, just being a baby; and Littlefinger, caught up in rules and restrictions: allowed to be close to what he wants, but never truly part of the team.

Events start to occur. Fuckhead Hoster Tully decides to set up marriage alliances for Catlyn and Lysa. Lysa meets Jamie Lannister, who barely pays her any attention (he's distracted by the presence of his hero, Brynden "Blackfish" Tully). Catlyn meets Brandon Stark, who has power, status, a noble house, physical prowess -- everything Littlefinger wants. On the night the Stark-Tully engagement is arranged, Littlefinger gets drunk. He can't cope with the years of complicated class dynamics, he's heartbroken, and he's what, 14? He's immature and acts like it. Then Lysa rapes him.

I'm not a psychologist so I can't comment on the impact of sexual violence, especially when gender and power play into the situation in this way. However, Lysa did an unforgivable thing, and there was nobody Littlefinger could turn to. That's horrifying. I also think that more should be made about Littlefinger's comments about shutting your eyes and getting it over with in relation to being in bed with "an ugly woman".

Soon after, he challenges Brandon Stark to a duel for Catlyn's hand. Catlyn "betrays" him (in Littlefinger's mind) by giving Brandon her favour, Edmure "betrays" him by "squiring" for Brandon, and then Brandon nearly kills him. So we have a teenager who is 1) in huge amounts of physical pain, 2) without friends or allies, 3) was recently raped and 4) considered unimportant and insignificant. Then, Lysa rapes him again. The fact that this poor child didn't have a full mental breakdown is genuinely suprising.

We don't know if Littlefinger knew about Lysa's pregnancy at the time. What Hoster did to her was also unforgivable -- violence begets violence, and Lysa and Hoster's relationship is full of toxicity and harm. Hoster is also just generally monstrous. If Littlefinger did know, that's another layer of complexity where his foster father aborts Littlefinger's baby, a physical reminder of the sexual violence Littlefinger endured.

A few years later Lysa convinces her then-husband, Jon Arryn, to bring Littlefinger to King's Landing. He is traumatised, he is resentful, and he is cunning. He works hard to enter the places he was once barred from, like the court, the Red Keep and the small council. Now he can take his revenge on everyone who hurt him.

GRRM often talks about the futility of revenge. House Martell is the most obvious example of this, and the speech Elaria gives is beautiful and poignient. Littlefinger doesn't get revenge on Hoster or Brandon Stark. He does kill Lysa, but that's more to shut her up. In a story with a different perspective -- and a few characters kept alive -- we could see Littlefinger as a Kill Bill style avenger, ruining the lives and families of all of those who harmed him. It could be easy to root for him, not against him as the narrative sets up.

Revenge isn't simple, and that's why Littlefinger doesn't succed and isn't an inspirational character. He never confronts anyone on what happened to him -- he's too psychologically damaged -- so instead he kills Ned and Jon Arryn, two people who had nothing to do with his traumatic experiences at Riverrun, and then he hyperfixates on poor Sansa, who looks like Catlyn in his memory. He's immature and stunted in his mid-teens. I wonder if Littlefinger and Sansa lived for another 10/20 years he'd find himself losing interest because she moved on and he can't.

Littlefinger will likely die because of Sansa, and nobody will miss him. He's not a good person. He's groomed and lied and manipulated her, and the horrors he inflicted on Jeyne Poole, supposedly her best friend, are even worse. I don't see his future death as triumphant, though, in an unbiased overview kind of way. The Starks will celebrate, because he killed their dad. No one else will really care. The Lords Declarant have got rid of an annoyance, and he wasn't really working with King Tommen or the Small Council any more.

I think there is some sadness, though, for the child who wanted to be included, wanted to be loved, and who was instead hated, abused, ignored and scarred. RIP Littlefinger, a victim of the patriachy and the class structure.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Oh, indeed. There is an incredibly popular quote used in probably hundreds of jonsa graphics and a few metas and no doubt a lot of videos by now, "Stone and snow, that was all that was left of Winterfell. Just like her and Jon." I have no idea where it originally came from, some 2011/2-era fanfic or graphic edit, but it certainly does not come from GRRM. Heck, it's not even grammatically correct and not even really GRRM's style (not that that's ever stopped anyone).

And yet, a few years ago, a jonerys friend asked me to proofread their meta disputing various jonsa claims… and within their essay, they had spent 6-8 paragraphs disputing this quote. 🤦‍♀️ They were extremely surprised to hear it was not actual ASOIAF text that they needed to consider.

And there's so much out there, just like this. Another pervasive one, non-ship related, is “a harp in the tomb, a child in the womb, a dragon in a stone egg”, a nice bit of poetry sourced only from a theory essay postulating Rhaegar's harp is in Lyanna's tomb. People have come to me going, "but that theory must be true, I mean, the poem!" and I had to gently explain he drew the receipts himself.

(lol, well, I say not ship-related even though it's R+L=J, but I tend to think of those obsessed with it (particularly that essayist) more as theory-obsessives rather than ship-obsessives. Not to slight shippers, I'm one myself, but it's a different kind of attitude for text analysis and projection, focusing less on proof of love specifically.)

But yeah, made up or misread jonsa theories are hilariously pervasive -- "the girl in grey" for one (it's Alys Karstark, who came to the Wall as a girl in grey riding a dying horse escaping a forced marriage. GRRM gave the answer in the book the prophecy appeared ffs, the whole story point of the prophecy is that Jon sent Mance and the spearwives to Winterfell to aid "Arya" and thus they ended up in Theon and Jeyne's storyline, but no, Sansa's going to do it all over again just because!) And my Ashford tourney crack theory they stole and misinterpreted (it was about Aegon, and about the fact nobody won the tourney because of Dunk (Sandor, lol, though I'll accept Brienne too), and I've seen people seriously considering it important even though I admit it's almost certainly coincidence and doesn't mean anything! Jonsas aren't the only ones of course, believe me I've seen some tremendous crack in my own ship, but I'm thinking specifically of cases like that where the actual text of the story (Alys Karstark, Mance, Jeyne, Theon; or the historical events of the tourney where Dunk and Egg met and Baelor Breakspear died) doesn't even seem to exist if you're only looking at edits and videos and other fanworks. It gives a wildly bizarre reading of the text if you've never actually read it.

And yes, twitter is full of these cases where the text has become irrelevant, where people make inferences and projections on top of distanced inferences and projections. Not to exclude worg and reddit, where people just make theories-on-top-of-theories, building up enormous cloud castles with no real foundation. Like the Southron Ambitions Conspiracy (textually, the rantings of a lonely paranoid woman), which developed (rationally) into the fan theory that "the STAB bloc formed to remove the Targaryens", but people use that as a basis for so much more, defaulting it as true, even though it is still only an unproven theory! And because it's maester-related and Targaryen-related, it's been mixed with the maester anti-magic conspiracy (very likely true, but also very shadily sourced within the text), into this enormous Protocols of the Elders of Hightower bizarre conspiracy theory that the Hightowers and Citadel want to control all of Westeros and killed all the Targaryens and dragons even the ones who were killed by each other and you can't trust the maester-written Fire & Blood in any way! except it's an inviolate text for the parts you want to be true and nothing is real but everything is, how dare you say otherwise.

Anyway, thank you so much re the term "sourcecreep" and that Jack Sparrow not-a-quote. Fascinating stuff.

@ilynpilled

ppl being more interested in Fandom than the actual source text is so real like they do have their own nonexistent text thats just a recycled concoction of the same bland fandom incorrect quotes tropes over and over again which deviates so much from the canon and they prefer to the actual thing lol

my favorite example of sourcecreep is the fact that if you go on reddit, pinterest, or facebook, or google image search 7 years ago, or flickr and photobucket if you're properly fandom old, you will find image edits of disney's jack sparrow with the quote overlay "the problem is not the problem. the problem is your attitude about the problem."

if you've seen enough of these edits (there are many thousands of them), you might even read those two sentences in his trademark cadence.

the problem here, though, is not anyone's attitude about the problem. it's that this quote has never appeared in any of the five films in which jack sparrow appears. nor in any of the video games he stars or guest-stars on. nor in any of the tie-in young jack sparrow novels or the film novelizations. it is not from a deleted scene or an early draft of any script. it's not from any of the disney park parades or firework shows in which jack is included as a face character with recorded speaking lines. it's not from the original ride or the re-dress of the ride post-dead man's chest.

this is a quote from the YA series the sisterhood of the traveling pants. one of the characters' coaches says it to them in one of the books because they are children in high school. there is no reason for it to be attributed to this character or this franchise besides one patient zero at some point or another 20 years ago making an image with a text overlay on picnik photo editor and uploading it to their livejournal or whatever.

anyway this is how asoiaf fans on twitter absorb information about their favs from the series and then post about it. i believe there are many such cases across fandom at large.

[kellyvela]

Do you think the fear Sansa had in the early series for Ilyn Payne is going anywhere, foreshadowing or what, or was it just then?

The trauma of Ned's death at the hands of Ilyn Payne and Ice is still there. But at least Ice is now in better hands (Brienne's).

Sansa is also wanted for kingslaying and Ilyn Payne is still the King's Justice and headsman of King Tommen, so that fear didn't go anywhere either.

But there is something that always bothered and frightened me about Ilyn Payne in relation to Sansa, and it has nothing to do with him personally, but with whom he reminds me: The Boltons.

As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

That description is eerily similar to the description of Roose Bolton (and therefore of Ramsay Bolton's):

Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort, had a small voice, yet when he spoke larger men quieted to listen. His eyes were curiously pale, almost without color, and his look disturbing.

—A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

* * *

"Ramsay." There was a smile on his plump lips, but none in those pale pale eyes. "Snow, my wife called me before she ate her fingers, but I say Bolton." His smile curdled.

—A Clash of Kings - Theon VI

* * *

What if Bolton never had his sister? This wedding could well be just some ruse to lure Stannis into a trap. Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew, but even so he had never trusted him, with his whispery voice and his pale, pale eyes.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

And that line about Ilyn Payne's "pale colorless eyes" stripping Sansa not only of her clothes but of her skin, scarily reminds me of the Bolton practice of flaying their enemies. That's why their sigil is a flayed man....

Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies."

"That's just one of Old Nan's stories," Bran said. A note of doubt crept into his voice. "Isn't it?"

—A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Sansa feeling her soul naked before Ilyn Payne, also reminds me of what Roose Bolton used to say:

Reek stepped close. "Strip off their skins," he urged, his thick lips glistening. "Lord Bolton, he used to say a naked man has few secrets, but a flayed man's got none."

—A Clash of Kings - Theon IV

And of course there are more parallels.....

As a member of House Payne, Ilyn is sworn to House Lannister. He was also the captain of the guard of Tywin Lannister as Hand of the King, before being the King's Justice. While Roose Bolton plotted with Tywin Lannister to betray and kill Robb Stark and usurp House Stark's position in the North.

Ilyn Payne can't talk since Aerys Targaryen had Ilyn's tongue torn out with hot pincers, so his forced silence also reminds me of Roose Bolton silent nature....

Ilyn Payned beheaded Ned Stark and Roose Bolton stabbed the Robb Stark's heart.

Illyn Payne also usurped Ice, the ancestral sword of House Stark, while the Boltons are usurping the ancestral Starks's seat: Winterfell, and the Starks's position as Wardens of the North.

Maybe this similarity between Ilyn Payne's appearance with the Bolton's look can explain why Sansa always felt naked around the executioner of her father....

And the same way Sansa sensed Ned's death when she met Ilyn Payne, maybe she also sensed the future wedding of Ramsay Bolton with Jeyne Poole during one of her nightmares:

Once she dreamed it was still her marrying Joff, not Margaery, and on their wedding night he turned into the headsman Ilyn Payne.

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa II

Joffrey and Ramsay are the only characters described to have "wormy lips" after all....

GRRM really likes his layers, huh?

Anyways, I didn't explored this subject more deeply because I hate it enough right now.....

[jackoshadows]

The character I'm probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn't want to be Jon Snow - the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I'd fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can't do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

Apparently George said this, I'm sorry, I don't know what interview it was

But I would like to ask you If you know what he means with "Theon wants to be Jon Snow but he can't" I found that part very curious

But I would like to ask you If you know what he means with "Theon wants to be Jon Snow but he can't" I found that part very curious

The answer is right there. GRRM himself give you the answer there:

Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can't do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

In some senses, Theon is struggling all the way through to be a hero. They both come out of the same situation: they’re both raised in Winterfell by Eddard Stark, but they’re not part of the real, core family. Theon is a ward, and Jon Snow is a bastard son. So they’re both a little outside, but Jon handles this successfully, and Theon fails to handle this. He is poisoned by his own envy and his sense of not belonging.”

Jon is basically like fuck this shit, I deserve better than Catelyn's glares and having to sit at the lesser table and I am going to go to the wall and become a top ranger and lord commander and be best leader. That's how Jon handles his identity issues and bastardy.

Jon and Theon both grow up as essentially outsiders, neither of them really belonging at Winterfell. They are both envious of Robb and the other kids. But Jon handles his envy better. As much as he is envious of Robb, he considers Robb to be best friend/brother, loves him and never means him any harm.

Theon on the other hand betrays Robb and murders two little children in his quest for identity and power. At the basic level, Jon and Theon want the same thing - they just want to belong. It's not about house Stark or house Greyjoy. They want family and love. Theon goes about getting it the wrong way. Jon doesn't.

But we can understand where Theon's coming from. His motivations - as a child hostage - to act against the Starks is even justifiable. And that's what GRRM is talking about - we would all like to be Jon Snow and do the right thing. But it's more human and easier to be a Theon Greyjoy and that's why it's something that he fears.

It's also interesting that Jon/Theon start out as foils but in ADwD, they start having more parallels and I am pretty sure they will meet in TWoW.

This post lays out all the Jon/Theon parallels:

https://loyalannister.tumblr.com/post/627543453537058816/if-jon-was-remembered-at-all-it-would-be-as-a

[masha-russia]

I'm sorry this is a little late, but I just read your write up of your GRRM Q/A. First of all, I wanted to thank you for it! It was lovely. I have a question: why do you think Martin consider Jon unloved by Ned? I never got that impression from the books. Do you think he just missed Jon being lumped in/it was lost in translation? (I just can't imagine why he would put Ned in on the same level as Tywin, Randall, and Balon, especially after all the sacrifices Ned made for Jon.)

Thank you :)

This is a good question. No, there was no error in the translation, and GRRM didn’t miss Jon’s name (Jon was mentioned directly after Sam, before Tyrion and Theon). As I’ve said in the post, this question caught my attention more than the others (because of the mention of Jon), and I locked my eyes on GRRM’s face to see his reaction. When he heard the question, he didn’t seem surprised or perplexed to hear the name Jon, he simply nodded and smiled, and said “happy families are boring”.

While it does seem unfair to put Eddard on the same level as Randyll, Balon and Tywin, the question was more centered on the sons than on the fathers, and how the sons dealt with their fathers’ rejection. 

And well, Jon didn’t have an exactly happy childhood, did he? He always felt he was an outsider in his family, that he did not belong in Winterfell - although he wished to. He was a bastard and treated as a bastard, and it hurt him a lot - his sense of worth, his self-esteem, his well-being. Jon never was and never will be a Stark, and he knows it. And the rejection haunts him:

He would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell.

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep.

"We're not friends," Jon said. He put a hand on Sam's broad shoulder. "We're brothers." 

And so they were, he thought to himself after Sam had taken his leave. Robb and Bran and Rickon were his father's sons, and he loved them still, yet Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them.

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost.

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker.

Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir. It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place.

And Eddard is partly to blame for that. Lady Catelyn would have never loved Jon, but she was a woman, and had no power over his life. Eddard could have legitimized Jon, and raised him as Jon Stark (he could have removed him from the line of succession to please Catelyn, since Lords can decide and name their successors) - and Jon’s life would have been much easier.

And Eddard was cold ... There isn’t one single memory of affectionate moments between Jon and Eddard in their POV chapters. Eddard didn’t seem to be a warm person overall, but he was especially distant towards Jon. I am sure he loved him in a way, because Jon was Lyanna’s son and Eddard loved his little sister, but he didn’t express or show his love, and he loved the children of his own body more. Eddard didn’t give Jon the same attention and privileges he gave to his children, notably Robb. Jon and Robb were the same age, they were friends, but Jon could always see how differently they were both treated. For example Eddard was grooming Robb for command (as was expected for a first born son of course) but he didn’t educate Jon:

Lord Eddard had often made Robb part of his councils back at Winterfell.

Robb was part of the councils, not Jon. It wouldn’t have hurt anyone to teach Jon about politics even though he would never be Lord of Winterfell - Jon would have gained experience and could have advised Robb later in his life. Instead Jon was just excluded.

Eddard didn’t try to prevent Jon from joining the Night’s Watch either. He knew that it wasn’t a place for a young boy, but he let Catelyn had her way. And when Jon first discovered what the Wall was truly like he was very hurt:

Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse.

Finally, when Cersei and Eddard have their famous conversation, Eddard mentions his many mistakes:

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said.

And it strikes as odd that Eddard - who was a respected Lord and loved by his people - would think that, since there was nothing in the text about his bad decisions. I believe that these mistakes are all related to Lyanna, the Rebellion and Jon. Eddard knew Lyanna didn’t love Robert, yet he didn’t explain that to him or appeal to his father, and might have felt guilt over his inaction, knowing what resulted from it (Lyanna running away and the Rebellion). It could even be that Eddard knew that Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and went with him willingly, but said nothing. And maybe he also wished he would have been a better father to Jon Snow.

[rogers-senpai]

Lmaoo you know what's real hypocrisy?

J0nsas: Well, Jon can't be the Ice to Dany's Fire, because he's actually a Targaryen, he can't be the white dog on Tudor sigil, because he's actually a dragon.

Also J0nsas: Jon will NEVER truly be a dragon, he is a Stark at heart, his whole story is about being a Stark and of the North.

Well, the thing is, the only reason Jon is Ice is just that. GRRM made sure to let us know "he has more North in him than any of his brothers." He has only Stark features, has a white direwolf, is called a White Wolf as his sigil is a white direwolf as a bastard, he spends the entire story so far in the Frozen North and further, on a Wall of Ice and is a true Northman. While Dany has all the Targaryen features, lives her entire life in hot climates, has a red dragon from her sigil and is said to be true blood of the dragon.

You can deny them being ice and fire all you want, say that all the times D&D and other directors said it in the context of them being destined, and ignore the fact they called their meeting scene "Fire meets Ice" and "A Date with Destiny", and say it's just been done now to fool us, which, let's be honest, D&D don't do that shit. They are always painfully obvious with where the story is going. The fact that someone just said in an interview that this photoshoot's

theme was suggested by D&D as "ice and fire", and that was YEARS ago, shows they really knew all along, as Alan said, and the director of the finale said that Kit and Em knew it as well.

Jon's words to Theon "You don't have to choose. You're a Greyjoy and you're a Stark" pretty much prove your point to be false imo. Greyjoys don't have any honorable qualities, they stole , raped, Theon betrayed his family, and yet Jon forgave him and said that to him.

I don't understand how you can see Jon Snow, someone who saw his previous lover kill complete innocents in front of his eyes, forgave Theon for all the things he did, forgave Jorah - a slaver who he knew his father wanted to kill - and think he'll somehow try to do what?

Daenerys and Jon's marriage, as Petyr said, makes perfect sense. Their alliance will save all from the WW. There isn't a way around that.

If you think Daenerys would somehow try to make Jon inferior to her, think again, that's not how the situation after she married Hizdahr looked like at all. She thought she would have married an Aegon if he lived, an Aegon that should have ruled, now she's in love with another. And she knows Jon doesn't really want to rule, as we all do.

Oh, no one is denying that Jon is a true Stark. In his soul, he's a Stark all the way through. But there IS a reason he left Winterfell. There is a reason there is a lost Targaryen heir.

Him being a Stark at heart makes him Ice. A Stark Ice to cool the Targaryen fire.

So now what about you stop trying to pretend you know what our views are and let me tell you.

Jon is a Stark at heart. He has all the qualities and makings of a Stark besides a name. Just so happens his name should actually be a Targaryen, which makes him a part of the royal family that almost always married within their family. There is a Dragon Queen coming that he meets, Even though he's Ice and she's Fire, his parantage makes him suitable for her, almost perfect, as she thought she will be the last of her house. Just so happens that in the family he never knew he belonged to, the members tend to be attracted to each other, and even though he's a Stark at heart, it makes him pulled to that girl. They meet not knowing his parantage and fall in love, make an alliance between their houses, and they find out his belongs to her family. They marry, uniting North and the South, as the North sticks true to the man they crowned king, the son of Lyanna Stark, after he helped them survive the Great War, The North having someone they consider their own on the throne, but he still has the Targaryen claim, only made stronger by Daenerys' claim. Jon keeps when he was raised always in his thoughts.

The South has no reason to support Jon. In AFFC, we start with common folk toasting to Daenerys - someone they call their rightful queen. Bran's words will mean fairly little. Any documents Sam will show, can't prove Jon is the boy. They have always known that Jon Snow is Ned Stark's bastard, why should they believe that he's the son of Rhaegar all of a sudden. You can say Bran will say something, but if you think the 7K will fall on their knees because of what some crazy looking boy will say, that's not very likely. Neither is Bran actually caring about this. Or Jon wanting to do that on his own.

There is just not a plausible (imo) scenerio where Jon ends up a King with anyone but Daenerys, or on his own. He most likely will not try to seize power on his own, so only marrying Dany could be the thing that changes that, especially if she's pregnant. And if he wants power, good luck with that claim. Dany confirming that claim is the only possible way I see. And then they'd have to marry, of course. Bo way she'd do that without marrying him. How fortunate they're in love already.

He is the white wolf. His sigil is a white direwolf, he has a white direwolf. Daenerys is the red dragon. Her sigil is a red dragon and she has a red dragon.

Guess what real life sigil is that. The one Henry took after uniting houses with Elizabeth.

And, no, the Starks' direwolves are grey, only Jon's sigil and pet is white.

He got the unlikely claim like Elizabeth and will represent the Starks on the Throne. But it's his Targaryen blood that will give him the throne.

Having two Starks on the Throne and calling it an union of the North and the South is funny. Like you said, he hates KL, he has no connections in or ties with the South. How is he the South part?

Jon is a wolf. Jon is Ice. So him ending up with another wolf isn't uniting anything.

a part of the fandom: Jon will never be a Targaryen he’s 100% Stark and always will be stop calling him a dragon

the same part of the fandom: the dragon and the wolf applies to jon and his sister!!