#[ 87 verse]
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vvitchering · 1 month ago
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My only nonspoilery thought about the new venom movie is that I have never really minded that the Venom movies are Bad Movies until now. I really wish this one had been a good movie.
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manslaught · 4 months ago
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“ sorry, ” mikayla says after tai's company finally leaves, closing the door behind her, no trace of genuine remorse in her tone, because she's lying— she's not sorry, not even a little bit, because sending the girl away put out some of the flames of jealousy that ignore in her chest anytime @ladyintree is with anyone else. “ i just have a test tomorrow and— you know how bad i am at focusing in public. ” she's even worse at focusing around taissa, but she's not actually concerned about the test that isn't even happening; she just needs an excuse for making the girl leave. “ she wasn't that cute, anyway. you could do better. ”
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chyirly · 1 year ago
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More on the retrieval team (03, 87, and 12Mikey) and their importance in this little plot point.
They are the ones that have the most interaction with the Spiders, with most of them resulting in fights and the team running off with their target.
03 is the leader, being the most mature of the group he's the one that the others look for guidance. He's the heavy hitter, usually the one that attacks first before the others follow.
87 and 12 are the fighters, with 87 with his boisterous presence being the one that distracts the spiders and the other two take their target, mainly 12.
12 is the sneakiest, able to grab the target mid-fight before the Spiders can notice. Something they struggle with even after other encounters due to how sporadic his moves are.
There is a chase sequence after the fight ending with the trio escaping using a portal device, sometimes with another turtle coming to grab them. The last option does result in a few close calls.
Sometimes when things seem dire, Ronin will come fight, he is a last resort that first came out when Miguel became active.
The second to last of my Shellslinger/Shellshocked drafts. Probably won't add much for this ship for a while.
I'm almost out of drafts so post will probably slow down.
Should I post my WIP's that I will never finish?
Questions are welcomed!
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every morning font markiplier the bite of 87
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glitterslag · 2 years ago
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"Cool necklace." Says Robin, gesturing to the glint of gold-wrapped red that rests in the hollow of Chrissy's throat.
Chrissy's spread out languidly across the Harrington's leather sofa, looking like she should be centrefold in the latest Playboy. She's still in her pink bikini top from before, one of Steve's big dad shirts flung on over the top and a pair of barely-there jean shorts to cover the rest. Her hair is pool-damp, skin golden, and there's a sweaty can of Natty Light in her hand, which hangs wanly on the floor below. She's Pre-Raphaelite.
Robin sits on the carpet beneath her, looking up at her with the shy admiration characteristic of someone in Chrissy's company for the first time.
Chrissy turns her benevolent gaze onto Robin, smiles down at her all warm and lazy like sunlight trickling in through the gaps in the Venetian blind. Eddie knows full well what it's like to be caught in the glare.
"Thanks." she smiles, catching his eye across the room for a brief flicker.
Eddie's been fused to the La-Z-Boy for the past hour, melting further and further into the leather in a drunken haze.
He's currently rendered mute - he gets that way, when he's drunk. Quiet. Probably the only time he ever is. And so he lets Chrissy field Robin's next question:
"What's the meaning behind it?"
His heart quickens as he watches her toy with the dice at her neck. The d20 Eddie had given her usually sits unseen beneath the collar of her shirt, and for a mortifying second, Eddie is certain she's embarrassed. Certain she's going to shove it away, gloss over the question and move the conversation swiftly on. She doesn't, though.
"It means fate." She says steadily. They lock eyes again across the room and she grins, melts him. Only someone who knows her as well as he does would see the mischief there. Eddie takes a sip of cold beer and swallows. She speaks again. "It means destiny."
✨read more of this 'verse here✨
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I wish I could draw because I'm not sure this would work as a fic, but I'd love for the interdimensional meeting place for all the various TMNT verses to be a chill farmhouse. TMNT versions drift in and out when they need a break from whatever traumatic event happened in their verse.
In the living room, besides the comfy patched couches and armchairs, you can find Jenga and Twister and other board games (some are missing pieces), puzzles and fidget toys, plenty of books, and a boxy TV. Sometimes game consoles appear, if someone really wishes for one. Someone set up an art studio in the attic, but there are art supplies scattered around the house, often tucked in unusual places. It's not odd to find colored pencils in the couch cushions or pots of paint and brushes on the stairs.
The kitchen is warm and cozy, and the backdoor and windows are often left open to let in the breeze. The shelves are stocked with junk food and infinite coffee (all exhausted Bad Futures can rejoice), and the old fridge that somehow still works never runs out of food for various cooking adventures. There's one phone number taped to the fridge. It's to a pizza place on the edge of time and space that delivers to the Farmhouse.
Under the house, in the basement, there's a dojo and training weapons, but it's rarely used. The house is an excellent place to rest.
There's a pond for fishing or swimming and a creek to play in. If you want to actually plant vegetables, that's an option. Between two sturdy trees in the front yard, an inviting hammock waits. Someone's already planted an herb garden by the house, and a half-built greenhouse sits near the barn. An orchard and an apiary where bees hum are tucked behind the house. The barn doubles as a garage, and underneath is an excellent lab, if someone's bored or feeling creative.
The Farmhouse has wifi, but it isn't everywhere. Actually, the wifi spots drift around, except in the lab. It's the one mildly aggravating thing about the Farmhouse, but hey, wifi is a little unreliable in a pocket dimension.
A field of weeds and wildflowers stretches behind the house back to the edge of a shadowy pine forest. The porch, always cool and shaded, has a swing and plenty of rocking chairs.
There's a cat that shows up when it wants. Sometimes it appears when it feels needed. It's not always the same cat.
And everyone can just take a second to breathe, and when they go back home, they can't remember what happened but they feel a sense of peace and contentment.
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tacit-semantics · 1 year ago
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My big moneymaker tmnt crossover ideas are tnm venus and 2012 april (psychic, bisexual, writing ranges from iffy to abysmal to outright problematic) and cass and 87 shredder (want to Inflict Her on him)
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jr-verse · 8 months ago
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The Bite Of 87 83.
Of course I (and someone else) was "there".
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apexulansis · 11 months ago
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@vehxmence / continued from here.
Ardaka hissed at her, but he was otherwise too busy readjusting his size in the too-small-vehicle to think of an immediately witty retort.
He hated having to use anything that wasn't built for his sheer density in mind. This car didn't care for his weight, he could tell; a ton more than what it was built to expect.
He splayed his hands against the sides of the walls and windows, finally managing to still himself for long enough to glower up at her. He wasn't actually angry, though. The creases in his face appeared as lines of irritation at first, but they were really just stress. It was hard to look anything but hostile with his toothy maw, but Hawk might've already been learning the difference.
“Law enforcement has nothing on me.” Ardaka huffed.
At some point, the kariian had gripped the upper frame of the vehicle so tightly that the metal was beginning to dent under his fingers. Nerves tightened in his chest as the incline in their direction grew. It felt like the whole thing was going to go screeching back down the slope with him being the force to drag it backwards. The insecurity was easily read on his face and with the way his larger ears folded back, down and low.
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“I'll feel better once we're out of this thing.” There was a steady thump, thump, thump. A tail somewhere smacking restlessly against the nearest hard surface. “I feel useless here — there's no room to do anything!”
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pastafossa · 2 years ago
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Pasta, respectfully, fuck you. I'm on my knees sobbing over this chapter. Once again you blow me away. Can't wait for my soul to be crushed into millions of pieces over and over again
My mug was getting low so thank you for your contribution! 😆
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Also i am so sorry i swear it'll get better 😅
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noahsonicdiaz · 1 year ago
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My name is Sonic. I am here to keep knuckles out of trouble along with Tails. My brother is right about using real names over the airwaves you never know who is listening.
If you are here in an attempt to threaten my world or my family then things won’t go well for you.
______________________
Hi everyone! Some of you already know me over on Charlie. I have decided to pick up a new character to play along side my girl. I saw there were no Noah Diaz accounts. I just had to fix that. I will be alternating between Noah and Charlie. I can’t wait to meet you! Thank you so much for following me and giving me a chance.
Oh I may also post when I go live on twitch as well. I am a streamer who plays horror games, and sometimes I leave a calming rubber duck game on overnight called “Placid plastic duck simulator.”
Thanks again and for those I’ve known awhile. I’m back and I missed you!
Verses
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nonymous06 · 2 years ago
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Pov I'm making my own turtle iteration cause I got bored
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I went too hard when world building the kraang needless to say
I wanted the rise vibes but still as involved as they were in 12 so instead I went feral linking everything I could to the kraang
The artifacts? They're the turtles mystic weapons. Hamato ninpo? Results from utrom experiments. My brain saw every equation when it came to linking everything
Also oroku and karai being referred to as the originals is because the ones the turtles fight are the reincarnations because I love my complicated plots
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ducknotinarow · 10 months ago
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🎶 for all your Raph muses tbe music meme give me all the songs bich you can delete the post but that ain’t gonna stop meeeeeeeeeeed
| Send me "🎶🎶🎶" and I will share with you 1-3 music tracks that I associate my muse(s) with!
*Considering I have playlists for them all I just had to pick three songs XD Keep in mind a lot of these choices are solely based on events in rp on the blog at least stuff that has enough development for me to comment on in terms of songs. Or goes into my protryal of Raphael over all.
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We didn't start the fire
Is this love that i'm feeling
Beat It
*When it comes to all my 80's playlists I try so hard to keep the songs in that time frame but I have broken that over time XD but mainly it is still a good 80's mix. Anyway when picking his songs I tried to stick to his time frame. Can't say i'll be as dedicated on the others pft. Anyway time for my pop tart boy.
We didn't start the fire: I picked because it seems like a song reference he would make when it comes to how often him and his brothers wind up roped into situations he doesn't fully believe are their problem to deal with. But end up being their problem anyway. Like don't get him wrong when he feels it is their issue Raph's attitude is different like in the first season when it came to Splinter.
Is this love that im feeling: yes course this gonna be about Casey. Raphael just thought he had no real interest in romance why would he after all? He is a mutant turtle? maybe if there was a female mutant turtle? But even then he had doubts. The only time he kind of liked a girl was when he was hit with a love potion after all. He didn't seem to like girls so he wondered if he liked well men instead? based off his own comments he thought were just jokes. Then in came Casey Jones. Who he fell for pretty quick sure at first he found them nuts but he was attacking his brothers. And it didn't stop him from fighting Casey again later. But didn't keep Raph once they had a more friendship going on to wonder what was there. Turns out it was love its why he changed his tune to like Casey clearly. I also just like it for when he and Casey date. Sure loving someone is enough to date them but dating is how you see if you continue to love them. And that what Raph figured out. Also I like to think this is a song Raph would sign towards Casey uwu
Beat it: I find it funny and clear proof others don't watch the 87's series. Cause they have this weird outlook of Raph not lighting ti fight or being a fighter. And I agree he isn't looking to pick a fight but he is fucking petty and will start a fight. Raph is a very "I didn't start it but i'll finish" it type of fighter in this series. So a good song about throwing down to fight seems fitting for Raph's rude behavior.
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*Normally I put 03/07 together but I feel some songs will fit better for some themes in 07 story plots.
1. Hercules
2. Brother
3. I'll be good
+4. Bonus song My best friends Ex
Hercules: Generally I love this song because it really works to dip into Raph's need to protect. It's not just in a physical way either Raph despite calling himself a lone wolf is someone who really just looks out and cares for others. He comes off selfish and uncaring but then you see how he is quick to put others before himself. Down plays anything going on with him but will put more worry into it for others. He loves to have space but is quick to try and reach out to someone else if he feels they need it. His stubborn ass is what makes him so loyal he has so much faith in others. He really will shield others from harm when they can't themself.
Brother: I love this song for TMNT in generally because a brotherhood is just such a strong theming for the series. BUT I'm directing this to his brothers. Raph's heart is one of four, his brothers are his whole world. Anything happens to one of them? and best look out he will die if it meat protecting his brother or getting revenge for them. Raph can seem harsh and distract but in the moments that matter most? he is the one by his brothers sides first. When need be he will step up into leader role so to make sure the rest are safe if Leo isn't around like when Leo left to see the Ancient one and they got attacked by Karai. One thing you don't get between is Raph and his brothers even when Raph distances himself them he knows they have him and he knows they know he has them. Why they count on him and will call out for him when needed especially Donnie.
I'll be good: It's not secret that Raph is his own worst critic. It's why I feel Splinter never got on Raph's case as much as he dose Leo during Leo's emo arc. Splinter will step in if Raph's going to far and offer advice but he knows no amount of scolding is anywhere as bad or deep hitting as what. It's hard for Raph to understand where his anger comes from. He wants to protect his family and it scares him to see how big the world is out there if they stayed in a much smaller area easier to maintain it be easier to protect them. Raphael just feels like he can't do right he fears being the one to hurt his brothers why he has nightmares of him being the shredder. He regrets any fight he has with Leo, the times he went to far with Mikey hell he got regrets with Donnie too. He wants to be good he wants to be more positive like Mikey can be but he just can't he feels something wrong he feels if he could cut into himself deep enough maybe just maybe he can find what it is and take it out.
My best friends ex: I couldn't give up the last three for this song but didn't wanna leave it out XD. Raph and Von's friendship in 03 verse is just so damn good to me I love it I love them being besties so much. It's funny cause I feel you wouldn't see these two being so close. But I think Von just not caring to fall for the image Raph sets up allowed her to get close to Raph. Maybe cause of her background who knows. Just in my mind if Von ever dated anyone outside Donnie they knew/or knew about Raph that friend thats hates them funnier if Raph don't know them he hates them uwu.
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Danger to myself
Wannabe
Killing me
Danger to myself: For sure where Raph was at just after Leo had taken off. There was just a lot going on. Raphael hated that they were told they couldn't basically go on with their lives with Leo gone. Raph lost a good source of his distractions because of that and struggled with things going on with himself. Slowly he started to make things worse shut out his family, and pushing away those who he needed most. Donnie someone who always makes him feel a bit more grounded. But Raph lost his footing. Casey someone who always made him feel loved and needed. But Raph didn't love himself or feel he was needed. Night Watcher was so easy for him to hide anyway into. If he was the Night Watcher he didn't need to be anything more.
wannabe: Why this song? how do a spice girl song fit Raph. I feel like each of the adults have had moments where they are watch both Summer and Ariel on their own. Raph's soft for the two on their own as is. When they are together? He might as well be a floor mat for them. Just image them in a classic moment of the girls finding a way to rope Raph into thier antic and feel one is singing along to songs well messing around. Raph can act like he dont wanna be part of thier sleep over antics but I feel Casey walked in and found Raph singing along to the Spice girls with his daughters. XD basically it more a song that just makes me think of Raph in a parental route.
Killing me: May seem a bit misleading on how Im gonna be using this song but this is more meant for when Casey is going though his mid life crisis. You think Summer felt her dad just left? Oh trust Raphael felt the same way. But where Summer can speak on that and express how she feels Raphael will not. No different from how with his own family Raph seeing Casey going through what he was he in part knew that Casey needed to be allowed to. Raph had to go through his own stupid shit for a time. He saw Leo have to as well and even Donnie. But it wasn't easy, Raph had to keep things in home well in order. Had to make sure Summer was taken care of. Seeing Casey not in the right state. In truth I feel Raph reached out to April A LOT during this time. If he could swing it with disguises he of course takes Summer to practice himself. Raph didn't really have a support when he fell apart (he pushed them away that why) so he wanna try and give Casey the room to fall apart too and show Raph is there to help pull him back together like Casey has for him. But even Raph dose feel Casey's absence and it's killing him uwu
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Lost
Sharks
Fine
Lost: Some of my favorite scenes dealing with Raph are when they see Splinter get thrown down into the sewers. And in his fit of rage Mikey hugs him to snap him out of it. And again during the space arc when one the angry planet Raph once more snaps and Leo hugs him. What snapped him out of it? Love uwu. Raphael is someone seen as uncaring he is quick to say he don't like ti deal with certain emotions. He is meant to be big bad tough Raphael. Yet, he is full of pain and a feeling of being just lost. Where he should be aware he is loved and needed sometimes he needs that assurance because Raph sees the worst in himself. Raph is hurting deep down and it come out in his anger and he wishes he knew better how to handle it to even understand why it's there so sometimes a bit of affection paid his way helps. Raph isn't bad a kid hes just very unheard. It shows that he can be heard by some and it should make Raph look weak that he dose need that at times. But to him dose. He just lost in the storm always in his mind. Sometimes he just needs to grab on to someone a moment.
Sharks: It's funny how often you can mirror Raph with some of the villains. You got of course his often foil in 2012 Fish face, the more obvious Slash before he was redeemed even being shown like a worse case for what Raph could become. And of course, there is the fact he and Leo are like a new generation of Yoshi and Saki. Often I feel why Splinter is how he can when it comes to Raph's anger and complaints on Raph likes to think he is better because hes good so he should be better he wouldn't sink to their levels. But he has he can even Slash alone showed what would happen if Raph let his anger consume him too much the beast he could become if he didn't have his brothers around? Raph would become so much worse. If he didn't have family he loves and looks out for than what would he have to keep him grounded?
Fine: Raph is the stereotypical character who talks shit about love and romance. Act like he so above his brothers who more open to showing they would like to fall in love. Raph very much that person who just can't understand someone loving him because of his own self hate. And he sort of projects that on the him and his brothers Who would love them. And yet? He wants it he wants to be stupid over someone, he and try and deny how he felt for hockey playing idiots all he wants but he don't want that he wants to also turn and say he's an idiot and he feels those things too. Cause deep down Raph is just a sappy romantic. He wanna just embrace those things too given the chance. So why not go ahead and show he might have intrest in his best friend just a bit uwu
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Can't take me down
chills
I like it heavey
Can't take me Down: This is just a feel good song for Raph in general he is very much got this I can't be stopped mind set (boy do I look forward to him getting humbled or shown other wise that he isn't strong enough >:3) This is very much a how I carry myself kind of song. Despite how clearly everyone around him seems to look at him and see him needing some help professional level even or any time someone remarks on him going a bit too far? Raph will either defend it with a look of 'what do you mean?" or blow it off. He goes in loud with out a second thought. You can't take him down and much as they all hoped he thinks that's what will get people to love him uwu
Chills: I just like this for our rasey for mm with your take on MM casey uwu Since we always tend to give Casey the theming of ice. But it also just fits because Raph never been in love before not really something he thought of only to make fun of Leo over. The. Comes Casey someone who gives him litteralt chills uwu
l like it heavey: someone thar is a mutant? Yeah, this start of the song dots alone as is. But Raph himself? Someone who dose have a bit a different taste in well everything from his more violent tendencies to his love for wrestling even to point if hiw he wants to present considering he uses protine powders to help muscle growth. Even his sens of style? Some like it pretty, but Raph likes it heavey. Slightly to play into the sing above this jsut plays into why Raph himself don't think he goes to far or maybe even need help (he dose u_u) he just himself and wants someone who gets that who he is.
1. Hot n' cold
2. Chateu
3. The phoenix
Hot n' Cold: I'm sorry but not sorry hot n' cold os just Raoh generally over all. He can really just shift through his moods swings fast enough to give someone whiplash. Raoh has his moments where he can be sweet and caring and those moments should really speak the loudest to others. But other times? He's a oranry bitch. And he's pretty up front about it.
Chateu: since Raphs known casey the longest in this verse, i feel these two have had a lot of time to be all fuck this place mind set over time. Between Raphs family drama and Casey own. Raph has had Casey in his corner from day one. This is just a very nice song for Casey and Raph in general I feel ;3; they need each other, they make eachnothers hearts bear. Course, there's a reason it took them time to get together, but they been able to give up on some things thiwr hangs up and such cause they got the other ;3;
The phoenix: in truth this song I played on repeat often well playing the game it self xD It just fits!!! Anyway in universe I would say it's because Raphael is pretty goal set in the game. He feel long as they stay together as brothers they will get Splinter back because well he needs to or he will get hopless himself. So he talks uo loving the fights and such and enjoys when they get to certien maps in the game. Honestly the most break in this is when they are looking for Casey he gose from. But he picks himself back up after every loss or miss chance to get thier Dad back. Raphael isn't someone to get knocked down too easily like his fiery rage this turtle will rise back up like. Phoenix
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eievuimultimuse · 1 year ago
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VERSE 004. BALAENOPTERA MUSCA.
Balaenoptera: 'winged whale' ; Musca: genus for flies, including the housefly (Musca domestica) ; additionally, a play-on words of 'Balaenoptera musculus,' a.k.a. the blue whale and also the largest known animal to have ever lived.
post-cure addendum.
➤ AU inspired by the ending of the Mut.ant May.hem junior novelization
➤ After Superfly fell in the ocean along with his machine, he just…vanished. Despite the spoken concerns about the effects of allowing a machine full of MUTAGEN sink into the ocean, it…seemingly sank with little fanfare. Superfly never resurfaced. For all intents and purposes, it seemed like it was over. They stopped his apocalyptic plan, and the world was saved. If anything else popped up, they’d be ready, but for now…THIS WAS IT.
➤ Of course, that wasn’t actually it. The TRANSFORMATION that Superfly underwent as a result of exposure to the ooze and other creatures still very much took place. Instead of resurfacing and attacking New York, a disoriented and dazed Superfly wound up retreating further into the ocean. When he did eventually snap back to reality ( and also comprehended just what was happening to him ), he'd already become a fusion of various other creatures. Recognizing the circumstances he was left with, he opted to take advantage, using both his newfound strength and size as well as his current M.I.A. ( or worse ) status to continue carrying out his plan. Although he could no longer cause an apocalypse as originally planned, he figured becoming the ULTIMATE MUTANT would be a decent back-up.
➤ This plan was, admittedly, a little...SHORT-SIGHTED, particularly to the mental effects that fusing with so many other creatures would have ( granted, he was already not the most sound of mind when he thought up the plan in the first place because of aforementioned effects ). In this state, Superfly experiences episodes of brain fog, where his ability to think, concentrate and even remember things are impaired. In the early stages of his transformation, this was no more than having a lack of mental clarity than usual, with the rare bout of confusion. Now at the size he is at, he regularly experiences an inability to focus and multiple episodes of memory lapses. It is not uncommon for him to pursue a line of thinking only to shortly forget it within minutes. ( Occasionally, he even forgets why he's even doing any of this or how he wound up here. ) Ultimately, while his personality has remained unchanged and, while lucid, he still has sharp wits, he is not as quick as he once was.
➤ Due to spending longer in the ocean ( and thus assimilated far more animals ), Superfly is larger than his canon kaiju form was. While difficult to really gauge, if his canon form was just shorter than an apartment building in New York ( minimum 115ft, but could even be taller than that ), then he is at least double that, if not pushing triple. Having the mutagen-filled machine attached to his back basically meant that he just...kept absorbing animals as he travelled — something that he couldn't really control. Thankfully, the mutagen eventually dissipated and ran out after some time, so he's pretty much capped out at the size he is.
➤ Word of his existence is slowly spreading, particularly among sea vessels. This is following a series of random boat capsizes and at least one incident of an entire cruiseship going missing. When initial reports of the cause being a 'SEA MONSTER' came in, it was dismissed as hysteria. A few mishaps later, however, even skeptics are none too sure if there isn't something malicious lurking in the depths. ( Though some of these incidents have occurred a fair ways from North America, one can expect that he never strays far from home for long. Sooner or later, he winds up back near New York again. )
➤ Questionable if the anti-mutagen would work as intended at this current stage; the significant difference in size might not be as large a factor as one might anticipate, but the duration of him being in this state might. There is a possibility that he's built up a tolerance; while he can still be picked apart, injecting it straight into his bloodstream might not completely dismantle him as it would have had he resurfaced sooner.
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shadowzgather · 11 months ago
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The following are just a few humanized duck verses for the sake of crossovers and will be added to or adjusted as necessary or desired. Not all muses will be in these Verse, nor are these fully fleshed out they are more like concepts but will be fleshed out as rp happens.
Persona 4/5 Verse
Drake Mallard and Jim Starling are twins that attend Shujin Acadamy as transfer students. Their parents divorced when they were still toddlers, and Drake's mom changed hers and Drake's surname to her maiden name after the split, each parent taking one of the boys. They are identical twins with blond hair and blue eyes. But they have the same personalities as their 91' cartoon counterparts.
Princapal Kobayakawa has convinced Drake to look into the Phantom Theives rumors as he is an up and coming detective, not unlike Goro Akechi. Jim is a thug that got into Shujin because his dad is loaded and has a lot of money that Kobayakawa is hoping to get a generous donation of.
Digimon Cyberslueth
Jim Mallard, Negaduck in EDEN, is the leader of a malicious Hacking group called The Fearsome Five. They are contracted and do a lot of shady work for Rie Kishibe.
His brother Drake, however, is a cyber detective working with their distant cousin Gorou Matayoshi. Darkwing dislikes hacking, but has a Digimon partner for the sake of his job.
Hazbin Hotel Sir Pentious AU from my main that is closer to canon.
More verse to be added.
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rednephew · 1 year ago
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✧ — ⋆ He's thinking about Garvey~
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