#zelda lore

[pocketseizure]

Designer's Note: Secret Stones have been passed down from a time so long ago that not even the Zonai know their origins. Initially we designed them to resemble dragon embryos, but they eventually settled into the form of the magatama jewels worn as accessories in ancient Japan.

Although their shape is simple, we took great care to convey a sense of the power contained within the Secret Stones. So that their color profile wouldn't be too basic, for example, we mixed two or three hues within each Secret Stone to reflect the palette of each Sage.

The art director gave the concept of "rakkan" [the stamps that traditional Japanese artists use to sign their work] as the key aesthetic for the glyphs carved into the Stones. These glyphs are based on the Chinese characters that represent the Sages. While maintaining a minimum level of readability, we transformed the shapes of the characters into something closer to symbols, each of which includes an "eye" element. We hope these designs lend a distinctive air of mystery to the Sages.

[cutebutalsostabby]

Zeldas Ranked By Their Rupee Value

1st place (gold rupee/300 rupees): Skyward Sword Zelda.

2nd place (purple rupee/50 rupees): Ocarina of Time Zelda, Echoes of Wisdom Zelda, Four Sword Adventures Zelda.

3rd place (blue rupee/5 rupees): A Link to the Past Zelda.

Last place (rupoor/-10 rupees): Minish Cap Zelda, Phantom Hourglass Zelda.

[yasmeensh]

Zelda 2 comic sneak peek

I took out my old full-length Zelda 2 comic draft and chose a segment to make a short comic out of. It's missing context from the whole grand narrative of the entire story, but I think it gets the point across.

There were a couple potentials, and I ended up choosing the scene where Link discovers that his blood is the key to awakening Ganon. It's the most well-known plot point of the game in the LOZ fandom in general, besides the Prince of Hyrule plot. Throughout the comic, Link gets attacked by various monsters during his quest. He thought Hyrule was incredibly dangerous for merchants and travelers, but found out that it was only him encountering monsters at a high rate, thus targeted (that is not discussed in this short comic). This disturbs him a lot. And this is the scene when he discovers why he's a target. It's more than the monsters seeking revenge.

At some point in the game, the player is made to travel towards south-western Hyrule and use the Hammer on dueling peaks to enter and get a magic potion. You specifically enter the peak that is originally Level 9 in Zelda 1. I found that to be very... interesting. And suspicious. Why did the developers think "Okay lets have Link go back to the traumatizing final boss place from the first game to retrieve an item :D" It's kinda epic honestly and it gave me the idea: For the full comic, I made it that Link follows rumors and travels down there in the hopes of finding the magic book containing the revive spell, which is game-changing for the rest of his journey. Being the adventurer that he is, Link takes the risk and goes there thinking the place is long-abandoned and that Ganon probably no longer exists. Except, that isn't the case. (Okay I must add, after the revelation, Link loses his adventurous spirit and gets very serious with his quest. No longer enjoys exploring, which is all this Link is about. He starts developing Big Fears. This eventually spawns Dark Link. I wish I could make the entire comic but I know I can't T-T I should probably finish up and polish the draft and post it online for whoever is interested in a deep dive, lore-intense Zelda 2 story reimagining.)

It's the first time I do a 10 page comic, so I'm going through a learning curve right now xD It's going to be experimental, but I hope you enjoy it still. Here are some WIP shots. Still a while before it's completed.

[thankyourluckystars13]

"Born from a Nightmare,

Hylia refashion the Demon,

Into the Lord of the Mountain-

Guardian of the Hyrulean Wilds."

(This was for a zine titled 'Tales From Hyrule' featuring folklore surrounding ancient Hyrule that I did a long time ago! I forgot to upload it, so in favor of Tears of the Kingdom's release, here's some ethereal art!)

[simpingforcreamsoda]

actually Hyrule Historia Zelda timeline was a hot bitch and easy to understand and a perfect vague sandbox and all we ever needed and then Nintendo decided they needed to euthanize her for serving too much cunt so they released TotK to retcon everything in the dumbest most swagless ways imaginable. And for what. To try and psyop me into thinking the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess Ganondorf parallel isn’t the best pussy I’m gonna get in this god forsaken land of unconventional video game continuity? Get real.

Hero’s Shade big naturals

[spookysazart]

"if majora's mask was a dnd game, the happy mask salesman would be the dungeon master" is one of the hardest lines I've heard from a zelda lore video

[carrotsnake]

since peacocks don't really exist in the wild era, riju's feather patterns on her armour seemed purely cosmetic until totk, where it resembles the leaves of trees in the depths. along with the gerudo underground cemetery, it's another leftover of her people's past involvement there, passed down from each chief.

[kbluebirdart]

There are still a lot of questions about Eow...

Major spoilers ahead

---

Why did Echo of Ganon capture Zelda?

because Null may not know that Zelda could receive sanctions from the goddesses to access the prime energy in the first place or did he? But it wasn’t until she fixed the rift at Hyrule Castle, right? Did I miss smth...

---

Why is there no Master Sword? I presume even the sword can’t survive through the endless passage of time

or... maybe, could it be save for DLC? a sequel? (is that possible?? but this should save us Zelda fans from dying (lol) while waiting for the next 3D Zelda game if actually happens)

---

Zelda can only rely on Tri with his power in this game. but where's her magic power?

like goddess power? telepathic ability? summon bow of light? Nope. She’s very much the athletic type and relies on her wisdom and courage like Link here.

---

Have people forgotten about the Triforce, similar to Botw? even the goddesses and the Deku tree call its name the Prime Energy now

The Triforce symbol is still around, but people really don’t call it Triforce anymore. could this kinda imply that the game must be set far, far into the future after A Link Between Worlds?

---

since Null is now gone, could Eow be the final game in the fallen timeline??

Someone pointed out that Demise and Null might be one and the same. In the Japanese version of Skyward Sword, Demise is at one point called an "incarnation of the void." Now Null is gone...forever?

---

the goddess statue is in the basement under the Hyrule Castle which means people no longer care about her...??

ever since the hero of time was defeated then...could this be the reason why the magic power that was inherited to every princess of Hyrule fade away??

----

all of these lead to... or are they just ditching the old lore away?? but still, connected with the timeline or anything else? And jokingly..., why is there no nighttime in the game, except at the start of the game? Did they forget to include it?😅 so many questions lol

[kazenorth]

Been playing the original legend of Zelda and getting my ass kicked by darknuts so here's my favorite concept/official art of Link from the original game

Just a little guy

I wanna hold him in the palm of my hand.

[somasoa]

The True Nature of the Ghost Ship: A Legend of Zelda Halloween Theory

This theory will be citing the gameplay changes and minor story retcons present in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD

In The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, one of the most iconic parts of the latter half of the game is the search for The Ghost Ship.

 The Ghost Ship is a phantom ship that is present at night in certain quadrants of the Great Sea. The quadrant it appears in is dependent on the phase of the moon on that night - for example, on a full moon, the ship will be present at Crescent Moon Isle. It is translucent in appearance, with tattered sails and the spirits of the dead floating around it, and, without the Ghost Ship Chart, one can sail straight through it. When the Ghost Ship is present, a storm will start, and when getting close, an ominous chant can be heard.

それから、数百年・・・ あのガノンさえ、蘇らなければ このハイラルは永遠に 眠りから覚めることは、なかったのだ

Have you seen it? The Ghost Ship also appears in these seas… On the nights of the downward crescent moon...

Fishman (The Wind Waker) - Translated by Sidier

On Diamond Steppe Island, an island in the southwest of the Great Sea, there is a grotto that Link can enter. Upon delving inside, Link finds a ship graveyard - multiple ruined ships, filled with Floormasters.

Upon exploring this ship graveyard, Link finds the Ghost Ship Chart, which shows Link the location of the Ghost Ship is each night, and, upon encountering the Ghost Ship, he can now sail into it to actually board it.

We learn about the Ghost Ship Chart at an earlier point in the game, when Link encounters Lenzo. Lenzo informs Link that the Ghost Ship Chart was made by a man who sought the treasure of the Ghost Ship and wanted to document its movements. However, upon completion of the chart, the man suddenly died.

ある時、船が壊れてしもうてな わしは潮に流されるまま、海を 漂っておった・・・そんな時じゃ 海の彼方に見たのじゃ 幻のように透き通る不吉な船 そう・・・幽霊船の姿をな うわさでは幽霊船が出没する海域を 調べた男がいて、それをマップに 記したそうなのじゃが・・・ 書き上げてまもなく男は 亡くなったらしい ・・・おそろしや～ まあ、そのマップさえ手に入れば 幽霊船にのりこんで、中の財宝を そっくり頂けるかもしれんがの！

One day, my ship broke and I drifted along the seas, driven by the currents… That was when I saw something far away… A transparent, creepy ship, almost like an illusion… Yes… I saw the Ghost Ship… Rumors say that a man investigated the areas where it appears and wrote up a map, but… He died shortly after completing it… How scary! Well. If you can get a hold of it, you can board it and might able to take the treasures!

Lenzo (The Wind Waker) - Translated by Sidier

When Link enters the ship, he is transported into what appears to be another dimension. The ship appears very similar to one of the many other Submarines in the game or the bottom level of Tetra’s ship, but many parts of it are torn off, and through the gaps are inky black darkness, with the spirits of the vessel seen floating on the bottom floor of the ship.

After defeating the ghostly enemies present, a ladder drops down, which Link can then use to climb up and acquire the Triforce Shard concealed within the ship. An ear-piercing shriek rings out, and Link wakes up on the King of Red Lions, back on the Great Sea, now suddenly morning. 

While this is a fun and interesting questline, the ship actually doesn’t give us much to go on in terms of lore or story. However, this Halloween, I would like to propose a theory based on the limited evidence we have, and determine what exactly the Ghost Ship is and why it protects a Triforce Shard.

To preface the theory itself, it is necessary to establish a running trend with the Triforce Shard locations that are found on the islands of the Great Sea.

The King of Red Lions establishes that when the Hero of Time crossed the boundaries of time and returned to his childhood at the end of Ocarina of Time, the Triforce of Courage from the Adult Timeline was split into 8 pieces and hidden throughout the Great Sea. 

時の勇者が時を旅してハイラルを去る時 勇者のもとを離れ、８つのかけらとなって各地に飛び散ったと言われている

It is said that when the Hero of Time left Hyrule on his journey through time, the Triforce of Courage left him and was scattered among the land in the form of eight pieces.

The King of Red Lions (The Wind Waker) - Translated by Jumbie

While it is never specified in-game if the Triforce Shards were hidden before or after the flood, facts in-game make it likelier that it occurred after the flood. For example, the fact that the majority of the Triforce Shards are found on the surface of the sea rather than needing to be pulled up via the Grappling Hook suggests they were hidden at a time when the islands were the only accessible land. In corroboration of this, the presence of Triforce Sea Charts that reveal the locations of the Triforce shards suggests that their locations were only concealed after Hyrule was already flooded and the world was divided up into maritime quadrants.

Because of these facts, it is very likely the Triforce Shards were hidden in a time when the flood had already occurred and Hyrule had been swallowed by the Great Sea.

Many of the hidden Triforce Charts and Shards are directly hidden behind locations that are tied to the Royal Family. For example, many of the Triforce Shards are hidden within caves that utilize the same type of architecture present in the Tower of the Gods and Hyrule Castle. Furthermore, they are also hidden behind the usage of the Wind Waker, a relic of the Royal Family. While Daphnes may have been in possession of the Wind Waker during the time between the flood and The Wind Waker, this does not preclude the descendants of Daphnes creating seals on the Triforce Shards that would require the Wind Waker to unseal them.

Given this shared architecture, as well as the importance placed on the Wind Waker, it becomes immediately clear that the hiding of the Triforce was done at the behest of the Royal Family, or what remained of it, following the flood. You might wonder, however, what this has to do with the Ghost Ship. 

Taking into account the totality of these factors, it’s likely the Ghost Ship was specifically made by the surviving Royal Family and its servants as a means of protecting a Triforce Shard, similar to how they hid the other Triforce Shards in locations across the Great Sea. However, it’s unlikely that the surviving Royal Family members and their servants created the actual Ghost Ship, given its supernatural origins, so it’s likelier they created the thing that became the Ghost Ship.

Returning to Diamond Steppe Island for a moment, I mentioned that there is a ship graveyard there, and it is in that graveyard that Link discovers the Ghost Ship Chart. However, there is something peculiar about one of the ships present in the graveyard; upon closer analysis (and a bit of clipping through a wall), it can be determined that this ship is just a broken down version of Tetra’s Pirate Ship, as it is identical in almost every way, including the figurehead!

A nigh identical ship graveyard can also be found one quadrant north, at Needle Rock Island, with the same ruined ship. 

However, what does that tell us about the Ghost Ship? Interestingly, the Ghost Ship is also nearly identical to Tetra’s Pirate Ship. However, there’s a noticeable difference; the figurehead is not that of the one found normally on Tetra’s ship, but of a strange figure, with what appears to be its hands clasped in prayer.

Despite this difference, it can be demonstrated that the Ghost Ship shares the model of the ship used by Tetra and her crew, a vessel of the Royal Family, implying that the boats are of the same make, similar to the destroyed boats in Diamond Steppe Isle and Needle Rock Isle.

Strangely, the figurehead of the Ghost Ship has a very strong resemblance to the figures that are depicted in the introduction tapestry of The Wind Waker who were praying to the Gods after the Hero of Time’s failure to appear.

What could this mean? Suppose for a moment these praying figures in the tapestry were servants of the Royal Family, and survivors of the flood - very likely, considering the Royal Family were the ones who had the tapestry created following the flood, given its presence in Tetra’s room on her ship. 

As we know from Diamond Steppe Island, multiple of the same model of Tetra’s Pirate Ship were made, and it’s likely that it was simply the ship style that was utilized by those directly affiliated with the Royal Family. Given the presence of the Triforce Shard on the Ghost Ship, it’s likely that, in life, it was a regular ship that consisted of a crew that protected the Triforce at the behest of the Royal Family. However, as we’re told in The Wind Waker, centuries have passed since the original flooding event.

それから、数百年・・・ あのガノンさえ、蘇らなければ このハイラルは永遠に眠りから覚めることは、なかったのだ

Centuries have passed since then... If Ganon had not revived, Hyrule wouldn't have awakened from its endless slumber.

Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule (The Wind Waker) - Translated by Sidier

Like all mortal men, the crew of this ship dedicated to the protection of a Triforce Shard were doomed to die, whether it be through old age or some other unforeseeable disaster at sea. However, given the presence of the Ghost Ship in the modern day, still protecting the Triforce Shard, is it likely that those deceased souls - the ones who survived the flood, and who protected the Triforce Shard - then went on to continue roaming the Great Sea in the form of an undead crew on their supernatural ship. This would be reinforced by the fact we see a ruined Royal Family ship in Diamond Steppe Isle, which, coincidentally, is also the same location we find the Ghost Ship Chart. We know that the Ghost Ship Chart was made by a man seeking the Ghost Ship’s treasure; is it possible the Ghost Ship killed this man somehow, as a way of protecting the Triforce, and hid the chart in Diamond Steppe Island? If this is the case, it’s likely that it is capable of moving other objects, and is likely the reason the ship graveyard exists in Diamond Steppe Island in the first place.

From there, it is also possible, then, that the ruined Royal Family ship we see in Diamond Steppe Island is actually the “corpse” of the Ghost Ship, and the phantom ship we see roaming the seas is the spirit of this ship transformed, with its figurehead now resembling the praying figures who survived the flood - the servants of the Royal Family, who now, in death, continue protecting the Triforce Shard. However, it’s also possible that the Ghost Ship’s original ship was just an unseen fourth ship separate from Tetra’s, the Needle Rock Isle ship, and the Diamond Steppe Isle ship.

Regardless, this interpretation also explains why the ship disappears once Link acquires the Triforce Shard; the purpose of the ship and its crew was to protect the Triforce Shard, which they would continue doing even after shedding their mortal coils. But now, with the appearance of the one true Hero and his acquisition of the Triforce Shard, they can now leave the Great Sea and move onto the afterlife, their ultimate purpose finally fulfilled.

In summary, the Ghost Ship was a ship that consisted of servants of the Royal Family who survived the flood. The surviving Royal Family hid the Triforce Shards throughout the Great Sea, and one of shard was hidden amongst a group of these servants who had their own ship. However, eventually, the ship was destroyed somehow, and its ruins either sunk to the seafloor or possibly even found their way to the Diamond Steppe Island ship graveyard, either via natural or supernatural means. The Ghost Ship, the twisted and warped spirit of this ship, continued sailing the Great Sea, with its undead crew still protecting the Triforce Shard. A man seeking to acquire this treasure created the Ghost Ship Chart, and dropped dead upon completing it. The chart was then placed in Diamond Steppe Island, somehow, likely related to the Ghost Ship’s supernatural abilities. Eventually, the Hero of Winds stumbles upon the ship graveyard as well as the Ghost Ship Chart, and upon entering the Ghost Ship, he puts its undead crew to rest and acquires the Triforce Shard, allowing the Ghost Ship to end its reign as terror of the seas.

However, there is still much about this ship that goes unexplained. Why was its chart on Diamond Steppe Island? Why does it favor certain islands on the Great Sea based on the phases of the moon? While an answer to questions like these would explain practically everything surrounding the Ghost Ship, perhaps it’s for the best that this phantasmic ship still has some mysteries left unanswered...

[clowns0up-felix]

Coming back to tell you how much I love that little comic with the Chosen Hero and the Hero of Men. There's no dialogue, but it still has a strong sense of sadness and hope. And the parallels between the two are fantastic, I really wish Nintendo gave us more information about what happened between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap because now I'm really thinking about it and how whatever happened had to be pretty scary if the Hero of Men decided it was in everyone's best interest for him to yoink the Chosen Hero's sacred sword from its temple.

All those words to say your art is wonderful and I'm thinking about it and the piece of LoZ lore it represents. ❤️

Ohhhh my go yesssss I would give my life to know more about the hero of men,,, its literally crazy to me that there’s a link that’s just. There. No game no story no nothing. WHO IS THAT TELL ME?? Thinking about who he could’ve been is one of the joys of life but it tends to feel more like writing an OC than expanding on known lore, bc be barely have any,,,

Actually, Ill use this to ramble about what I do tend to think for him here, hope that’s okay!!

I love love love that u said that what was happening during the hero of men’s time had to be pretty scary, bc YEAH. To pull the sword of the first hero and first king of Hyrule (^.^) who probably would kill to not have fi be woken up is CRAZYYYY,,, either he’s oblivious or in a really bad situation,,, What is known about him leaves to believe that he was a knight tho, and they 100% knew about fis resting ground,, It is said that the world was about to be swallowed by evil, which makes me think Botw final cutscene or sksw final girahim type severity of monster floods. So I think hom (ill refer to the hero of men like this for now) link probably saw getting the sacred, legendary master sword as his only chance at saving hyrule.

Idk if he would’ve know himself to be the legendary hero reborn due to triforce mark, maybe he just stumbled across it in an attempt to hide some injured knights in the temple of hylia,,,, Side note on the temple of hylia, love the abandoned look in the comic but it doesn’t really make sense, does it? Bc why would sksw Link want fis resting place to not be well kept? Would he visit before his passing?

Anyway, he takes the sword defeats the monster hoards and gives hyrule a brief moment of safety. He’s made into a high ranking knight or maybe head of the knights (he’s probably rather young still, as that seems to be a theme for the chosen hero and priestess, so maybe late teens, and before having the master sword he was a knight in training?) and then, when the picori/minish come down to earth (i dunno from where, was that ever said? Just from the skies i thiinkkk,,,) he gets the picori blade and I think the light force from them. It’s similar use does bring up the question why hom link would use the picori blade over the master sword,, maybe because its a gift and the master sword is like this sacred sword meant to rest and that got him feeling bad hahaha,, Hom link trapped the monsters rather than killing them but I can’t remember if the trapped them in the sword or the chest or somewhere else hmm,,, the sword later turns into the four sword right? (I’m so sorry im too lazy rn to do research 😭) I don’t think hom link would’ve been able to use it as this tho, i think he never got it to a point like this, just used it to save the world once and then gave it away for the contest ^^ In one of the stained glass the sword he gets DOES look like the four sword but i am going to ignore that bc I think i can.

Also, for reasons that I can’t (don’t want to) talk about rn I personally would change it being the 50th anniversary of the Picori Festival instead of the 100th ^.^ also I think hom link would stay a close friend to the royal family partially to protect the holder of the light force which was sealed into his Zelda i think and passed down to her children and their children yk,, and don’t tell anyone I said this but he is alive during minish cap and ezlo was one of the minish that gave him the blade during the Force era ;)

I also think the minish weren’t really ever introduced to the public but instead kept in strict contact to the royal family and those they trusted, which is why during mc basically no one knows about them, and those that once did are already fairly old or dead.

I’m not gonna read this over, hope everything makes sense and is coherent

Thanks for the ask !!!!! Drawing the comic was so fun I’m happy u like it :D

[pocketseizure]

Demon King's Horse: This is the horse that Ganondorf is shown riding in "Memory #11: The Demon King's Army." Based on its appearance, there's a strong possibility that this horse is a species of monster, but its origin is shrouded in mystery.

[lore-from-hyrule]

Ocarina Of Time Ganondorf And Link's Heights

So in Hyrule Historia there is concept art of Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time. His height is revealed to be 230 cm Tall. So I went on to get the closest comparison of Adult Link and Ganondorf near each other. And by using Ganon's knee height I estimated Link is about 5 feet and 1 inch tall. This is something I noticed is some people on the Zelda Dungeon Forums also came to a similar conclusion about Link's height. So yeah, that's their canon heights in Ocarina of Time.

BTW, if the information in this post is similar to a post from a certain Mario Lore Blog, that's because that's my Mario Lore Blog. Which should be kind of obvious based on the blog names and formatting.

[onesunofagun]

I will now yell about Fi and Ghirahim as symbols of their respective creators, please stand by:

So, the biggest slap addition the lore that Skyward Sword gave us was (Her Grace) Hylia and (the Bringer of) Demise. Entities who, regardless of confusing localisation choices, exist as two sides of the same coin and are locked into a mutual karmic cycle.

They reflect each other like a mirror, and also represent an antithesis of each other, seemingly existing as consequence to one other. They were presented as the penultimate deities of the physical and metaphysical realms of their world since the advent of its creation by the departed Golden Goddesses; twinned yet opposite, and each both inevitable and necessary.

Shadow; Light. Chaos; Order. Indulgence; Restraint. Upheaval; Stability. Primordial; Designed. Spite; Grace. Hidden; Seen.

Ghirahim; Fi.

It goes right down to the blades that Demise and Hylia would level at one another. The spirits of each are a representative of the principles and philosophy championed by their creators.

Now, the closer you get to the works and relics of the Gods/Gods Tribe in Zelda, the more you see divine constructs that blur the line of spiritual magic and advanced technology, and are ostensibly both. This was a direction that really bloomed in Skyward Sword, taking a running start on it that games hereafter have followed. The caveat is that only certain special people chosen by Gods or otherwise given permission to use this kind of Magitech can interact with it or produce things like it (either at all, or without punishment).

Even the Sheikah, who have closely served the intentions of the Gods/Spirits of Light (Hylia and her aligned) all throughout history, make the mistake of getting too comfortable in their inspiration and cross the line into imitations. Despite the successful utilisation of, and later recovery of, certain Sheikah Tech such as the Divine Beasts to positive effect, the tragedy of both the Sheikah's Divide and the Calamity's hijacking of Hyrulean defence systems is still played as a cautionary tale of hubris and knowing one's place in the natural order of things.

The Sheikah were effectively making unauthorised knockoffs of Divine Magitech and it bit them on the arse.

Can't have shit in Hyrule.

Pretty much every significantly advanced tribe in Zelda has a stated closeness to 'the Gods'. Either by being adjacent to or descended from deities and spirits collectively known as the Gods (specifically the Gods Tribe in JP), they are still distinctly subordinate to and separated from entities such as Hylia and the three Golden Goddesses.

Confirmed to be included in this special grouping are the Zonai and the Oocca, for instance. Speculatively, the Wind Tribe are an example of people who ascended (with permission or worthiness) from the surface-- they are an arguably Gerudo adjacent tribe who may even be precursors to the Zonai or related to the Twili.

The Picori, at the very least those in their native realm, also certainly count as part of this grouping. Though it could be argued whether those descent Minish living on the surface still do.

The Sheikah, it should be noted, have never gained entry to this Gods club. Despite their proximity in worship and service to Hylia, historically, they've also done some pretty shady things-- like the Shadow Temple and the general murder and espionage stuff -- that may have otherwise excluded them from ascending like the Wind Tribe did. They walk a grey line, and they have a duty in the eyes of the Powers That Be that apparently prefer they stay put.

Not Turtle-y enough for the Turtle Club.

Another example of this Icarus flying too close to the Sun type cautionary tale, and a far more egregious offender in the eyes of the Gods Tribe, are the 'Interlopers' who would eventually become the Twili. They were a tribe of people that, while squabbling with others, tried to take dominion of Hyrule (referred to itself as the Sacred Realm/Holy Land in TP) with powerful magic that more or less gave them a winning advantage. Specifically, the Crystal Stone of Shadow (the Fused Shadow) which greatly amplified their magical power.

Banished by the Spirits of the Light whole cloth into an underworld (lit. A Realm of the Dead) that we also know as the Twilight Realm, they have been shunned from the land they tried to conquer and transformed by shadow so much, they're now allergic to the light (without sufficient mystical power to bolster themselves).

Basically, the intended message is this: any earthly people who have advanced themselves without approval by the Gods Tribe-- especially by using Divine Constructs as inspiration or means-- have therefore disrupted the order of things, and stacked the deck too much in their own favour. Even if the intent was primarily a fixation on preserving Hylia's bloodline, and by extension her sacred land, it is still possible to elevate oneself above your contemporaries (especially the capacities of the Royal Family line in Hyrule) in such a way that you impose too much independent influence upon the the natural world.

No longer following 'the way of the Gods' (the Gods Tribe law) or respecting the order of things (ala Shintoist inspiration), you are labelled a disruption to harmony and peace, and therefore seen as corrupted and pollutive, and generally negative in your impact. You will then be chased off, at the very least, unless you renege-- for fear that you will bring in demonic influences or be used by them. This has canonically happened to both the Gerudo and the Sheikah, now.

But you know who Magic Constructs on par with the Gods Tribe, except it's more eldritch and organic-looking and primordial in form? It's the other club, the one that the disenfranchised Sheikah went and banged on the door of, hoping to be let in if they started wearing cool red and black outfits and changed their name and stopped worshipping Hylia.

Yeah. It's the Demon Tribe-- who are pretty much just the inverse reflection of the Gods Tribe and its set up. Their Magitech equivalents, and what they can do, only serve to further cement this.

Specifically, if you could suggest that the Gods Tribe's main objective is maintaining a status quo of shared prosperity that provides an ordered and peaceful existence through conformity and tradition, the Demon tribe is an ever churning well of opportunity where winner takes all. It is a hierarchy built on brutal meritocracy, honed by constant challenges and hard won continuation-- survival and status fought for and maintained by individualistic influence and innovation.

Many various little bastards exist in the Demon Tribe. Bosses in charge of sub-tribes of monsters are commonly seen, but they have their minor Deities ad Spirits, too. The head honchos are called Demon Kings (plural, because it doesn't describe a single position, but rather just very powerful Demons who have clout). Demise is both a Demon King, namely the most powerful one, and also the 'Chief' of the Demon Tribe; just as, in this case, Hylia could be considered the 'Chief' of the Gods Tribe. So, Demon God-King, really.

While Demise is incapacitated by Hylia's seal, his role as the Chief of the Demon Tribe is actually the position that Ghirahim fills in for as his (literal) right hand man-- the very extension of his arm, as his blade.

Both the Master Sword (Fi) and Ghirahim himself are, perhaps, some of the most advanced forms of this sort of Magitech we've actually ever seen.

Ghirahim goes above and beyond in his role, even going so far as to cultivate his full persona as a Demon in his own right in order to maintain his authority as the effective Regent while the big boy is incapacitated. He disguises his true form and nature, and with a surprising level of autonomy and self-transformation for what he is, sets about attending his duties with great devotion.

He seems to have an incredibly intuitive and flexible mode of operation. His sentience is full of creativity, emotionality, and genuine potential that he has the capacity to explore and shape with great freedom, for the construct that he is.

He is flamboyant and attention grabbing, highly expressive. He entertains great personal indulgence, even going so far as to toy with Link in a manner that borders on vicious training for a while. Though in part due to his undeniable sadism, Ghirahim almost can't help himself but to continue to test and push against the potential as a swordsman that the Hero has, inadvertently cultivating its growth.

This depth of identity and adaption he's capable of was either an intentional part of his design, or specifically not prevented by it-- both of which stand to represent something of Demise and Demonkind. The lengths to which Ghirahim is allowed to wield himself when not in his creator's hand is remarkable and, though he is shown to be unable to override actual commands from his master, it stands in an interesting contrast to Fi.

Where Ghirahim is able to radically redefine his own presentation and function to best suit his Master's needs in a way that mimics the organic, Fi's evolution is far more linear and streamlined, never really deviating from systematic updates. Though the sword itself is subject to physical restorations, Fi's personal appearance is unchanged and reflective of her true shape, indicating that her tempering in the Sacred Flames is either a slow return to previous form or a pre-programmed and permanent upgrade set into motion by Hylia. It is also an evolution that is entirely dependant upon the actions of others, largely lacking the individual agency and flexibility that Ghirahim possesses.

Not to suggest that Fi is any less devoted to her purpose, however.

She is, quite unlike Ghirahim's aspect of individual advancement, wholly geared toward a model of mutual enhancement with a partner. She is built with a singular and clear objective in mind, perfectly designed to suit the needs of the one wielding her as a supplement to their ability, rather than an autonomous servant. She defers entirely to her Master's decisions at all times, though does make informed suggestions, and does not appear to be able to relocate the physical sword on her own. Many of her abilities are things that must be directly requested of her.

Even when she is given to performance, such as her singing or her ballet, these are seemingly dispassionate affairs that are precisely executed, preprogramed displays for Link's benefit. Absolutely nothing, not even particular inflections of emotionality, must risk the distortion of her relayed messages and guidance to Link-- these displays may also be something analogous to morale boosting rewards or a really weird form of reverence to the musically inclined Hylia. Either way, Fi is highly logical and presents herself foremost as an instrument and a tool. She does not indulge in a persona or otherwise engage in anything not directly tied to her assigned mission-- she does not get distracted or indulge personal whims as Ghirahim does. But critically, a large part of her design is geared towards an awareness of her surroundings. Fi has a visible consciousness for the living things around her at all times, contrasting to Ghirahim's seeming negligence of them and open disdain.

Fi's orderly efficiency and lack of cultivated personality to detract from her purpose make the fact of her construction obvious. Unlike Ghirahim, her true nature and her task is almost painfully undisguised. She exists in a simple sincerity, almost austere, seemingly unwilling or unable to seek function beyond her designation without being updated by another. However, her concentrated application seems to achieve concentrated results, strengthening both herself and her wielder in a near impenetrable mutual reinforcement.

It is perhaps of no coincidence that, despite Fi's seeming inflexibility and clinical pragmatism, she also expresses something of a fondness for Link at the end-- in many ways, mirroring her Divine creator. She does this very robotically, by correlating her collected data time spent together and their completed task with what she's observed of human happiness.

Skyward Sword seems to argue that Ghirahim's main flaw is spreading himself too thin, or trying to be so many other things, that he falls short as a sword in the end. It suggests that his sin, like others in the franchise, is getting too big for his boots scabbard and letting his pride become his downfall. His individualism gets presented with a great cost, as he has only enhanced himself in ways that seemingly do not apply when he returns to his primary function as a sword. The emotionality he has, such as the frustration and cockiness and bloodlust he indulges, are also shown to lower his successes-- reducing the sense of his efficiency and precision beside the ever level, measured Fi.

When he returns to Demise's hand, Ghirahim is already weakened and spent. Despite all he's done for his Master's revival, Demise is left to fight with a paling version of the blade that once fatally wounded Hylia-- not unlike a Master Sword in need of restoration to its full power.

There's a legend regarding Gorō Nyūdō Masamune, widely regarded as the greatest swordsmith in Japanese history, and Sengo Muramasa, who is famously known for creating unique and terrifically sharp blades that are considered cursed.

It starts when Muramasa challenges Masamune to see who can make a finer sword. When the work is done, they go down to a river, and place the blades in the water with the cutting edge towards the current.

Muramasa's sword, which he named Ten Thousand Winter Nights, cuts everything that floats its way-- leaves, fish, even the wind that happened across it. It is so sharp that nothing escapes unscathed.

Masamune's sword, named Tender Hands, is placed in the river and cuts the leaves that go by so seamlessly, they reform on the other side. Fish swim up to it and seem to be repelled by its aura, avoiding death. The wind kisses the blade gently with a pleasant whistle.

Muramasa isn't impressed by this. He thinks the blade is useless, barely cutting anything at all, and starts to remark on the lack of skill. Masamune smiles at the criticism, but merely compliments that Muramasa's sword is indeed quite sharp.

A monk who had watched all this from nearby approaches at that point, bows, and interjects with his own observations.

Though he too observes that Muramasa's sword is technically very finely made, he notes that it's a bloodthirsty, wicked blade. It cuts anything in its path indiscriminately, he says, and would just as soon cut a butterfly in half as remove somebody's head.

Masamune's sword, however, was the clear winner in the monk's opinion-- a gentle blade that did not needlessly cut that which was innocent or undeserving, tempered by grace. It is a benevolent sword, and so far finer made.

In popular culture, Muramasa's blades have held onto their violent reputation. There's a superstition that they can compel their wielder to murder. It has even been said that, once drawn, they can't be sheathed again until their thirst for blood is sated-- even if it has to drink from its own wielder.

They also had a weirdly consistent habit of maiming or killing members of the Tokugawa Shogunate, and so became an anti-Tokugawa symbol synonymous with the rebellion. So that's fun.

But Masamune was considered to be a very calm man, who was controlled and reserved and quite spiritual. Muramasa, though, was depicted as an aggressive man, who was a bit wild and kinda unpredictable. As far as the folk stories go, Muramasa is depicted as having been quite envious of Masamune. Unlike Masamune, who approached his craft as the art of achieving clean death, they say Muramasa needed to transfer his unhinged energy into his blades to keep from being overwhelmed by it himself.

Because their natures bled into the swords they created, it was believed that Masamune and Muramasa imbued them with purifying and demonic power, respectively.

Just as with Demise and Hylia and the swords that they created-- as inspired by such a legend-- the spirits inside of them represent their natures, as well.

[jullbnt]

@aikoiya The post was getting too long so I’m replying here, hope that’s okay! If anyone is looking for the beginning of this discussion, it's here.

Your extended pantheon is amazing! I just knew that Gàlondo would end up being Demise haha. I'd say I prefer not to associate Demise with any race in particular (and the Gerudo already have quite a heavy burden with Ganondorf), but otherwise I like that backstory you came up with. So what's Hylia's role in your version then if he’s the guardian of the Triforce? I'm curious ^^

I'd say my reasoning isn't so much "I hate this" but rather "this doesn't make sense/contradicts something else" or "previous games did this better". I also want to show that it's still possible to create stories without ignoring everything that was established previously because to me this idea that the timeline is too restrictive doesn't stand. In fact I tend to believe being a bit restricted and working inside a frame can trigger more creativity (after all they did wild stuff like flooding Hyrule before and it fits perfectly in the timeline). I also would prefer to see the existing lore extended or clarified instead of them adding new confusing stuff and leaving it extremely vague.

Oh I LOVE your Outset Timeline!! Though the ending is indeed very bittersweet. It always makes me so happy when someone else points out the inconsistencies in Skyward Sword's story. That's exactly my reasoning for my fourth timeline, it exists because of Ghirahim and Link's victory over Demise in the distant past. Though you are right, adding a timeline split while keeping the Master Sword in the official timeline requires some gymnastics! At the moment I'm going with a lazy theory about the Sealed Temple being the future Temple of Time, so the Temple's magic somehow allows the Master Sword to exist in both timelines (I said it was lazy haha). Impa’s bracelet is another story though. In my timeline the Goddess Sword is also left untouched in Skyloft because Skyward Sword doesn't happen, which could be useful in case someone accidentally broke the actual Master Sword 😁 It's very intriguing to me that Sky left the sword in the past when he had no reason to (and it shouldn't even be possible since it's in the exact same spot as Zelda's crystal). It's probably just a mistake on Nintendo's part but I like to think there could be something else there, and that Fi had a reason to stay in the past.

About the DLC items the thing is that most sets are found in the Depths in random Zonai chests if I remember correctly, or in the coliseums, and there was no explanation as to how they got there. In Misko's little shrines we find the Fierce Deity set and the LA set, but also the barbarian armor, the shock-resistant outfit and the climbing gear. I can understand building shrines for the Fierce Deity or LA Link following what you said, but then for three random armor sets? Not to mention that Link already owned them in BotW, so making us look for them a second time was kind of a joke. I like this shintai/yorishiro idea, but I think it would work a lot better if there were only a few items to collect and not… the outfits of all the Links ever INCLUDING WILD'S (how!!). It feels really meaningless and more like a catalogue for you to choose from so you can look like your favorite Link (which is a bit insulting to Wild, you can just replace him at this point and go as far as changing his hair or even his entire appearance with the LA set). I also didn't really believe they were the actual items from past games, it made no sense (the same way Link wouldn't actually wear a red Nintendo Switch t-shirt or something from Xenoblade). It just really felt like fanservice.

The dictionary thing might help, but I think the story should be explicit enough on its own and I don't really want to study Buddhism/Shintoism in depth so that I can play Zelda games and understand what's happening haha. I mean of course it's fine if knowing a bit about it adds new context and all, but if you can't understand things like malice vs. gloom without it then I think it's a bit of a problem. Speaking of Fujibayashi I feel like this wasn't really an issue before he was in charge.

Yes the French translation for Demise is very misleading, that's another problem: depending on your language things are sometimes interpreted very differently.

I really like the English names for the three dragons, I think they're so much better than what we got in French. Nedrac, Ordrac and Rhordrac, really?? At first I didn't even understand the link with the Goddesses, and then the last two sound way too similar. Btw I remember from my very basic Japanese courses that it's common in Japanese to create new words by mixing a few syllables of other words together. For example "rimokon" means remote controller (remo + con), or there's the well known Pokemon = pocket monsters. So naturally we end up with stuff like Ordinn + dragon etc.

I thought as well about the dragons going by names given to them by mortals instead of their true names. The thing is, I don't really want to create new names because I'm already changing so many things and my timeline stuff can be a bit complicated, so I need to keep at least a few things familiar. And I really like Dinraal, Farosh and Naydra :D

I agree about Farore being more associated to wind and plants than thunder (I mean she's kind of Link's patron goddess and he has nothing to do with thunder). What's even more confusing in BotW/TotK is that the Gerudo are now also related to thunder for some reason, but they're definitely more Din than Farore in my mind.

Maybe I should give you some context about my dragons haha. The beginning of my story is quite similar to TotK, though I still made some changes. Ganondorf completely destroys the Master Sword, Link looses his arm (except here Rauru isn't there to replace it), and Zelda still travels through time (but not because of a Secret Stone since I got rid of everything Zonai). She arrives in ancient Hyrule one century after Sky killed Demise (because this is set in my alternate timeline), and she's stuck there so she needs to find a way back home. Before that she learns a lot about SS, the Triforce, the timeline split and Hyrule's past. After meeting various characters and most importantly Sonia (who's still a priestess, the Sage of Time and her ancestor), Zelda learns that this era has two Master Swords: the one left by Sky in the Sealed Temple, and the Goddess Sword that is still somewhere above the clouds. She understands then that she needs to retrieve the Goddess Sword in Skyloft and forge a second Master Sword in order to help her Link in the future, and to do so she needs the three Sacred Flames. Where are the flames? The dragons "swallowed" them since they weren't needed anymore after Sky left his own Master Sword, which turned them into the giant immortal dragons we see in BotW/TotK. So that's Zelda's quest: find a way to go to Skyloft and then get the dragons to lend her their power. Along the way she'll also meet the ancient Sages, who can help her return to her own time by using the Triforce (but of course this won't work because of Ganondorf, and Link will have to fight him in the present and bring her back himself).

I'm trying to make this both a story I could adapt in comic form and something that could work as a game. The idea is that Zelda's memories would be playable sequences with places to explore, fights and maybe even mini-dungeons and bosses. And of course there's an entire story for Link as well. At the moment I'm trying to come up with interesting arcs and quests for each race/Sage, both in the past and the present.

Anyway, that's why I'm so focused on the dragons. Zelda (and Link) will need their help and they will talk this time. And since they will remember being apointed by Hylia and they're supposed to absorb their respective sacred flames, I need things to make sense. This is also a timeline without climate change in Lanayru (here it's the same province as in BotW with the addition of Mount Lanayru and a good part of central Hyrule), so the thunder dragon has no business being up there. That's why the swap would make sense.

No need to apologise! I appreciate your perspective and that you're interested enough to share your own ideas! :D

I agree on Zelda's magic being her own and what you said makes sense! Love the part about her only thinking about how she's a failure (though I guess it's only natural if she's been trying for 10 years without result). I don't know if she would have had the same reaction had she witnessed her father's death though. AoC isn't canon but Zelda doesn't unlock her power when Rhoam "dies" in front of her and Link forces her to run. The memory where's she's crying in Link's arms in BotW also shows that she knows everyone is dead, it's even possible that she saw some of it happen (maybe in the same way as AoC for Rhoam, or they saw what happened to the Divine Beasts from afar). I guess they must also have seen some terrible things on the roads, so she could have unlocked her power trying to save her people. But it only happened when Link was about to die.

Haha yes, I'm probably one of the most obsessed Zelink shipper there is and even I can't stand that power of love trope. It really has no place in a LoZ game. In my headcanon Zelda wouldn't access her power only because of her love for Link, though it definitely helps, but rather because the Hero dying is kind of an emergency situation and would trigger her divine magic even if the necessary conditions were not met. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me though 😆

Yeah I'm okay with the women of the royal family having some sort of power though not as powerful as Zelda. I think some part of it could also be attributed to their Sage of Time abilities. And the gift of prophecy being inherited from Sky is such a cute idea!!

I don't know about Terrako, I only remember that Zelda built it when she was just a child?

I'd send you an ask to rant about TotK but I'm not sure about the character limit and I fear it would just turn into a second wall of text haha! Here are some thoughts:

– I could live with new lore that contradicts older games, if only things made sense and were sufficiently fleshed out. Then I could just enjoy the story and accept that this is a different continuity. But here everything is so vague and sometimes even confusing. Like if we're going to meet the Zonai and make them such central figures in Hyrule's history, then I want to know more about them and learn about their culture. What's the point if we're only going to see two of them and have no clue about how they created all that technology, mined the Depth, lived with the Hylians, and then disappeared? Same for ancient Hyrule: if the different tribes were at war, I want to see it, and I want to learn more about them. Ganondorf also had so much potential for an interesting backstory. What kind of king is he? How did the Gerudo feel about him becoming the Demon King? What about the Gerudo Sage? And so on. It feels like this could be so much more.

– Other things I would love to see explained: where is the Master Sword in ancient Hyrule and why does no one seem to know anything about it or the Hero? How does it travel through time to reach Zelda? What about Rauru and Sonia's descendants? Also what was the point of the fake Zelda, and why did Ganondorf stay in his bathtub the entire game instead of rehydrating himself right away and getting stuff done? There's also everything I said about the secret stones the other day, but I know you don't see it as a problem ^^ (Also I just rewatched the memories and I had completely forgotten what Rauru tells Zelda in front of Sonia's grave: "Remember, that was a future where you never appeared in this world". So does this mean this is a new timeline that kind of retcons BotW? If not then where did all the Sheikah tech go and how were the shrines replaced by the Zonai ones? I really need an explanation for all of that!!)

– The game also barely mentions what happened in BotW, except for the history class about the Calamity in Hateno, the statues in Zora's Domain, and the memorials left by Zelda to honor the dead. I wanted to see Hyrule starting to rebuild and to get some sort of follow-up on the story. Did Link regain all his memories? Was Zelda planning to take the throne? Does she have some sort of trauma after her century-long battle against Ganon at Hyrule Castle? Why does she react to Ganondorf's name, but doesn't link him to Calamity Ganon? Why did the Sheikah tech that was so central in BotW disappear, especially the Divine Beasts? I care about this world and its characters, I want it to feel like a real place and to see it evolve. But then stuff like this really reminds you that this is just a video game world, and that Nintendo doesn't really seem to care. And if things can be retconned any moment even in a direct sequel, then… why should I feel invested?

– There was a real waste of potential with the Light Dragon and Zelda just transforming back thanks to Rauru and Sonia (btw couldn't they have helped if they could appear anytime and still had that kind of power?). I find it so disappointing that Link doesn't have to do anything to help Zelda, it almost happens by accident. Mineru also said it was irreversible, but in the end it's no big deal (they shouldn't establish something and then ignore it like that). If only Link had to use the Triforce or something. I didn't want Zelda to stay a dragon but sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't have been a better ending.

– It also really doesn't help that Link feels so disconnected from the main story. In BotW he was also experimenting the story through flashbacks but at least they were his own memories and they fleshed out his relationship with Zelda and the other Champions. Here Zelda is the one experimenting the best part of the story, and to make it worse you can find the memories in any order and get badly spoiled. It could have been so cool if Link also time traveled at some point and could explore ancient Hyrule (and they could have done something crazy like Link and Zelda being the ones to seal Ganondorf in the past, which would lead to his transformation into Calamity Ganon). Link is also so expressionless (except when cooking and all) that I find it hard to care when he doesn't seem to. Imagine how different Zelda sealing herself would feel in Skyward Sword if Sky didn't act so distraught. In the same way TotK would hit a lot harder if Link did stuff like falling to his knees after seeing Zelda's last memory.

– I also think that the hands/cooperation theme the devs talked about in interviews is a bit weak and cliché (with characters reminding Link and Rauru that they don't have to do things alone and that they're stronger together, stuff like that). First I don't find it very interesting compared to what games such as OoT, MM or Wind Waker did, and then Link being able to fight Ganondorf alone from the start kind of throws it out the window (and Rauru also ends up sealing Ganondorf on his own). The Sages are not even with Link outside of the dungeons, they just create creepy copies of themselves (and I found them so annoying I never activated them, except for Tulin when flying). But yeah sure they shake hands and vow to help Link. I still think him being accompanied by the Champion's spirits in BotW worked a lot better, and their powers were also more useful. I guess seeing everyone working together to rebuild Hyrule would have made that theme more meaningful. The thing I really liked about this though was Link finally catching Zelda in the end after failing at the beginning of the game, that was a really beautiful scene.

– Also I said it above but I don’t want everything to be explained by Buddhism/Shintoism parallels, especially if the game just expects you to get it without providing context. Let Hyrule be it’s own thing.

So I know this isn't only about lore, but these are the main reasons why I'm not very interested in TotK. To sum up I'd say that the game lacks some kind of depth and has a lot of wasted potential, and it also makes it clear that it's pointless to care about continuity. BotW Hyrule was interesting and I think a lot of things could have been done about existing races instead of adding a new one but not bothering to do much with it. Just bringing Ganondorf back in this version of Hyrule and see how the Gerudo react to him could be so interesting!! Some concepts were also excellent but didn't really go anywhere, like the Depths and the Sky Islands.

Honestly I haven't thought about all these side quests and minor characters yet, I'm still trying to sort things out with the main story ^^ But I don't think I'll touch the ones you mentioned, they were fine. I liked the thing with the Eighth Heroine as well, I've seen a lot of people complaining about it but it's one of the only things in the game I actually found interesting. I just can't unsee the parallel with Link and the Seven Sages (of course).

What I'll be doing for sure is making some of the quests and events more serious, I'm kind of aiming for a darker tone. Most of the quests are quite fun (especially the "potential princess sightings" ones), but I feel like this game really lacks some sense of danger and urgency. For example couldn't the people in Hateno have more pressing problems than making cheese or choosing between Cece and Reede? Or was it really a good idea to make lighthearted little quests about misanderstandings with Zelda when her disappearance should be driving Link mad? (I should have included that in my little rant above haha)

I'd also love to make the pirates in Lurelin something more interesting than just a bunch of Bokoblins, but I'm not there yet. And rebuilding the exact same village was kind of meh.

About the Gerudo questioning their traditions, I'm actually planning for my Ganondorf to be a lot more active and go to Gerudo Town in order to meet his people (I want him to care about them, so he wouldn't attack them the same way he targets the others). I don't have all the details yet but I'm pretty sure there will be a conflict between Riju's supporters and other Gerudo who believe he's their rightful ruler (at first they wouldn't know he's actually that one king who turned into Calamity Ganon). So that's another tradition for them to question.

The consequences of Ganondorf being the only Gerudo male are something I've been wondering about as well. Add to that the fact that he's raised to be king because he's male (and maybe even kind of worshiped by his people) and you get something that can turn nasty real quick. Though I also wonder if Gerudo aren't different from Hylians. You said you hc that the Gerudo are only women because they were cursed so it makes sense that you would view it this way, but on my part I believe that's just how they were created. For that reason I think this is natural for them, so it's possible that it doesn't cause exactly the same problems it would for us or for Hylians.

About Demise, yes of course Ganondorf is more than just Demise's hatred. But in this game it doesn't seem to matter, he kind of turns into a second Demise as soon as he gets his secret stone and his motivations instantly go from conquering/ruling to destroying everything and everyone. They could have done something a lot more nuanced or at least shown a more gradual transition, with him being more and more consumed by his hatred and loosing control for example. I don't know, anything that would look less like a comically caricatural villain riding a demon unicorn.

Also about Demise's curse, I always thought it sounded more like a warning than an actual curse, and I remember reading somewhere that this was the intention in the original Japanese text. In French Demise even says something like "you must never forget, history will repeat itself" instead of "I will rise again", and he and speaks of the curse of the demon tribe (implying that it existed before). Even in English it doesn't sound like Demise himself is casting a curse: "Those like you… Those who share the blood of the Goddess and the spirit of the Hero… They are eternally bound to this curse". He doesn't say "I curse you" or "I bound you to this curse". I feel like this makes a difference (the curse already exists). This is why I interpret it as him basically saying that evil will not die with him and that Link and Zelda/the Hylians as a whole will always have to fight the demon tribe, but not necessarily his reincarnation. So I don't even believe that Demise himself is influencing Ganondorf in any way.

About the Zonai Zelda explains she studied them at the beginning of TotK and recognizes what's depicted on the murals, so it seems strange that sky beings could get mixed with a tribe of barbarians living in the woods. But yeah history getting lost and mixed is the only explanation for this.

Oh you're completely right about the Mogma, I got the same vibe from them! And a Mogma mafia sounds hilarious ^^ I love the Rocktato, Link would definitely eat something like that 😆

I need to take some time to read through your master list, it all looks very promising!

[whimsaro]

Current Zelda timeline pet theory: the Zelda games other than BotW/TotK take place long enough before them that Hyrule no longer existed as a country, and all the documentation concerning the usual Zelda artifacts (Master Sword, Triforce, etc) were rendered incomprehensible by linguistic drift. Then, after the (unknown to them) Second Founding of Hyrule by Rauru and Sonia, some poor archeologist translated "Blade of Evil's Bane" as "Sword that Seals the Darkness", thus depriving Zelda fans around the world of VAs saying that legendary title out loud.