#which was the duffers' plan all along!

[the-lark-ascending69]

Sometimes i'll see a byl3r theory post that looks so much like it's parodying delusional byl3r theories and laugh along only to realize it's dead serious.

[luckybyler]

This was a reply to someone else, but I'm making this its own post because so many people are being so evil right now re: Noah Schnapp.

You can find other, longer explanations with history and all, but all the places I've seen more or less agree with this:

So you're all calling people to cancel Noah because he's in favor of a Jewish nation in what is today Israel. Which is a perfectly reasonable, decent and educated opinion to have, especially when you, to use a trendy term, "educate yourself" and find out why the state of Israel was created.

11000 dead Palestinians, half of them children

According to Hamas. Don't forget that, ever. They're the current, official government of Gaza, thus they're the ones who give numbers. This means that the real number could be 10, 1 million, anything in between. What I've read is that they probably give more of less accurate total numbers. What they fail to do, however, is distinguish between Hamas militants and civilians, and beteween civilians killed by IDF strikes, civilians killed by failed Hamas or Palestininan Islamic Jihad's rockets (which happens a lot), and Palestinians murdered by Hamas/PIJ (which also happens, a whole damn lot). They also don't specify how many civilians they have prevented or tried to prevent from evacuating or receiving aid.

11k dead people is a horrible number. Even 1 dead person is a horrible number. However, urban warfare in such a densely populated area is its own kind of hell, especially when the other side is fond of using civilians as human shields in every way possible. The fact that the number is 11k and not 50k, 100k, and so on, indicates that the IDF have indeed done a lot to minimize deaths. You don't genocide people by doing roof knocks, opening evacuation lines, dropping guided bombs, putting up an Iron Dome to deal with rockets while avoiding escalation, etc. simply because actual genocide, while a lot worse, is also cheaper, easier and faster than what they're doing. This is important because caling every act of war genocide dilutes the word, and there are actual genocides happening around the world. Also, there is a difference between striking military targets and causing civilian deaths as a side effect (what the IDF is doing) and planning and carrying out a massacre deliberately targeting civilians and inflicting as much pain and humilliation as possible on them. And there is a difference between doing so by breaking a ceasefire (which is what Hamas did), and defending your country because if you don't do that a terrorist group will anhilate you (which is what the IDF is doing).

Back to Noah. So far, these are the things that people have tried to cancel him for:

Traveling to Israel (a completely normal thing)

Having Israeli friends (another completely normal thing)

Condemning Hamas' horrible attack on October 7th (the decent thing to do)

Posting a statement saying he feels unsafe as a Jewish person in the US (which, given the rise of antisemitic acts in the world, including the US, including where he lives and where he studies, is a valid feeling to have)

Signing a letter, along with Shawn Levy, Brett Gelman, Ross Duffer and I think Cara Buono, asking Biden to press for the liberation of every hostage by Hamas. This especially shows the utter ignorance of the cancellers because, as it turns out, caring about every hostage implies a slowdown of IDF's actions (and, at the time, a delay of a ground invasion).

Supporting the existence and preservation of the state of Israel (once again, a completely normal thing). The fact that people are turning against him for these things says to me that the real reason you are all hating Noah is beacuse:

He's Jewish. Like, really really Jewish.

And the fact that this all comes from a place of antisemitism isn't hidden at all: I've seen y'all on here, on Twitter, Reddit, every other social media calling him slurs (such as "cunt"), censoring his name, pretending he's not part of the cast, asking the Duffers/Netflix to fire him, wishing him failure, doxxing him, calling on his classmates to physically assault him, etc. He doesn't need to educate himself: you guys are already teaching him a great lesson on why a Jewish state is necessary. If that's the treament he gets from his own "fans", what can he expect from the world at large?

[teambyler]

The reason for no explicit hints to the GA that Mike likes Will yet

One thing doubters of Byler have right is that there have NOT been the usual (i.e., explicit for the General Audience) clues that Mike is gay/bi or likes Will. We all know what this would look like in TV media.

Here are two examples of the classic Almost-Kiss With Interruption Trope from s1:

We haven't seen that for Mike and Will. Nor have we seen Transparent Closet tropes like Mike having a clear Gay Panic moment, or zooming-in to his face while he checks out a guy, etc. (NOTE: They HAVE been there but are too subtle for the GA. Mike's entire demeanor in the "I feel like I lost you" scene is there for those who see gay subtext.)

Why not?

Put yourself in the Duffers’ shoes. Imagine you plan a Byler conclusion. Would you be able to do any of the above things? NO, not without giving away the ending.

There would have been a huge hoopla in the mainstream in 2022, about the "bisexual love triangle" in Stranger Things. It would dwarf the current one about Buck being bi in 9-1-1, with the media screaming "Breakthrough for LGBT representation!" There would be little remaining suspense about who Mike would end up with in the YEARS leading up to s5, because (1) any non-Byler conclusion would become the most notorious instance of queerbaiting in media history, and, (2) in many ways with which Bylers are familiar, even the GA would have to conclude that Mike and Will are meant for each together and more compatible than El and Mike ever were.

A love triangle isn't effective if there's no suspense. The Duffers kept suspense with Jancy at the end of s1. Through the season, it looked like Nancy was going to end up with Jonathan. But then they redeemed Steve and he had his scene with Nancy at Christmas. THAT was enough to maintain the "Will they or won't they?" for a straight love triangle. But any similar setup for Mike, El, and Will case would have no suspense: the GAY HYYYPPPE would overshadow everything. In the case of 9-1-1, the writers have handled the hype for Buck+Eddie by placing another GAY love interest (Tommy) in the way of the pairing many fans have long wanted. The Duffers clearly can't do that with El.

The Duffers have to limit themselves to bread crumbs that Mike and Will will end up together, enough for observant viewers to see. And it's REALISTIC that homophobia would keep two best friends who love each other from hiding their true feelings, for fear that it would ruin their friendship. It will be like every other well-prepared TV plot twist in recent years. Many will be surprised; others will brag how they saw it all along. Everyone will see the past clues and exclaim, "OF COURSE this is what they were building up to! It was OBVIOUS all along!" =D

-teambyler

[you-were-alone-too]

for any bylers currently panicking over the apparent leak that will is getting a love interest this season, here's a list of reasons why it has to be mike (as someone with common sense and also someone who has witnessed firsthand the filming/writing process of this show since the end of season 2):

for all previous seasons, new characters were announced at the start of each season even before filming began. this has been true even for the most insignificant of new recurring characters added to the show. we also received character descriptions early on for these characters as well. even characters that were eventually scrapped (like a neighborly old lady that was supposed to give advice to the party in s3) had descriptions announced.

again, no confirmed casting call for a boy around will's age has been found, nor has an actor that might fit the role of will's love interest been spotted on set. while the duffers have been one of the primary sources for the set photos we've received, much of them have also been obtained through leaks, so again, even if they were trying to keep this love interest a secret, it would be nearly impossible with the amount of leakers out there.

this leak about will having a confirmed love interest only came out now as they're filming episode 5. notice that the leak did not say "NEW love interest" either. it is extremely unlikely that they suddenly wrote in an entirely new character when we know the duffers have nearly finished all of the scripts. they plan out each season in big detail on storyboards before writing the scripts, so again, it would be extremely unlikely for them to add in a new character to serve as a love interest for even the most minor character, let alone for them to make such a last-minute decision for WILL.

will is the focus of season 5, which has been confirmed multiple times by the duffers, shawn levy, and noah. they said his emotional arc is one that they hope will tie the show together. it's hard to imagine this succeeding if they pair will with some random side character, especially since one of will's main plot lines has been him coming to terms with and accepting his sexuality, along with finding love after claiming that he would never do so.

in conclusion, will's love interest isn't a new character. it is, in fact, the menace we lovingly know as michael wheeler. and considering that we got this leak now as they're filming episode 5, that means that the show will most likely tip its hand toward byler endgame by this point if it's obvious enough to now be classified as a "filming leak"

[starbylers]

Will Byers main character of season 5 “emotional arc tying up the show”, mysterious connection to the main villain AND the supernatural lore, “it started with Will and it’ll end with Will”, outstanding questions surrounding his disappearance which kicked off the entire show coming full circle, written for seasons as slowly falling in love with his best friend and that point being driven home extremely hard the season before His season….that Will Byers….is NOT ending up with some random side character lol. If you think that’s the most likely outcome I’m sorry but you haven’t been paying attention.

Like truly how do people envision that scenario? Will spends the season going through presumably life changing events grappling with his identity and fighting these deadly supernatural forces alongside the people he’s most closely bonded with in the entire world including his best friend who he is literally in love with and who’s relationship with him is obviously going to be important, full on saving the world in conjunction with his personal coming of age…and then when it’s over he just trots off with cute guy #373848 who has fuck all to do with any of this, or with the story of the show, who Will absolutely would not have had time to build a convincing relationship with given all of the above. A few scenes of what, someone flirting with him? Being nice, being friendly? does not an endgame make for someone who’s not only the main focus of the season but integral to the core mystery of the show. The love interest of a character like that would need to be front and centre alongside him (oh wait…..).

And in what universe could random new side guy compare to and in fact overtake - because that’s what they’d have to pull off - the depth of his relationship with the boy he currently loves, his best friend?? There’s no time or set up for that. Will is a main character. Even Robin - who I adore but she does play a much more minor role - gets a two season love interest who’s involved with the main cast, and don’t get me started on all the complex multi season straight relationships.

An endgame relationship for Will was never going to be an afterthought. The sentiments of I hope the Duffers are brave enough to go for Byler or they’ll just give Will someone else makes no sense to me because this has been planned for YEARS 😭 they were not making season 4 with their minds undecided about Mike and Will’s fate. They were not sitting in the writer’s room like oooh this is fun and messy let’s just slap in this major plot point between two main characters and figure out why tf we did it at a later date.

They made Will, the boy at the centre of everything, love Mike so intensely while actively not presenting a single other viable option (and having him grouped up with Mike yet again next season), KNOWING from the first introduction of Will’s feelings how it was going to turn out. If they planned all along for him to end up with someone else, there would be set up (à la Rovickie but honestly more than that, probably someone who could’ve taken Argyle’s place, or at the VERY least show signs of him letting Mike go). Meanwhile by s4 finale, there’s no other candidate in sight and his heart remains with Mike more devoted than ever like ?????

Will is important. His love is important. I’m so over people trying to downplay the legitimacy of his emotions toward Mike. Gay characters feelings aren’t disposable just because they inconvenience a straight ship, and the Duffers didn’t put Will in this position without an end goal in mind. You decide what makes more sense with what they’ve shown us so far. If you can see the threads (and not see certain other threads) it’s for a reason. Writing is intentional.

[stregoniconiconii]

I think a lot of people really don't get the Eddie Dustin dynamic. They think Dustin and Eddie are new best friends, that they are equal, which is not the case. Their dynamic is more mentor-student coded. Eddie said it himself he sees the people in his club as little sheep he saved, he never really was their friend. His world view also shaped Dustin's personality. This kid and his friends saved the world 3 times, they consider themselves heroes and yet by society standards they are seen as nerds and get bullied. Then there comes a dude who they think gets it, so they latch on. Even though he is not that different from popular kids who think they are better than the rest. His harmful opinions influence Dustin (I would argue even Mike) that they suddenly ditch their friend, are mean, failing school even though in Dustin's case he absolutely loves learning and so forth. Eddie brought out the worst of them which contributed to the tensions in s4 between Steve and Dustin (along with Dustin maybe being jealous of Robin tbh I haven't considered that way but it makes sense). You can't compare the Steve and Dustin dynamic with Eddie and Dustin because Steve never saw himself as something better than Dustin, he always treated him as someone equal which is why their bond will always be stronger than the bond Dustin has with Eddie. I really hope for s5 they somewhat touch on this. (Sorry for coming in your inbox like this)

Most people in this fandom don't get Eddie, full stop. They completely buy into the bullshit he spews about conformity and "the man", which isn't helped by the Duffers also leaning into it. Most egregious example being the supposed conclusion to Lucas' s4 arc. It's ridiculous precisely because Eddie does begin to learn that his assumptions/"doctrine" is wrong through his growing admiration for Steve and his bravery.

Eddie's relationship with his friends is absolutely not based on any kind of equality. He is looked to as a leader and not a particularly forgiving one at that. More like a tyrant. It's played for laughs but Mike and Dustin are genuinely anxious about how Eddie will react to not only Lucas not being available for DnD on one particular night, but him being unavailable because of a basketball game. Lucas didn't even want to talk to him himself, probably because Eddie has already shown himself to be unreasonable when it comes to DnD and basketball.

It's not purely Eddie's influence that leads Dustin to his meaner path, but he certainly doesn't help. Dustin has always been a know-it-all and cocky, he has a foul mouth, and he clearly has hard set ideas about other people that he finds very difficult to let go of. I think Eddie's main influence is in the us vs them attitude that Dustin adopts regarding the "popular" kids, but Dustin's overconfidence is definitely also because he has cheated death 3 years in a row. Nobody that was real to Dustin has died and he believes his plans are infallible... until Eddie dies following one of his plans. Yes, Eddie made the stupid decision to run into certain death for no real reason, but it is through Dustin that Eddie is connected to the larger plot. If he had just witnessed Chrissy's death and then hid, then he would have eventually been found by someone else and never directly involved with the Upside Down.

The thing I mentioned about jealousy over Steve and Robin's friendship, I think it's something that gets overlooked Way too much. Dustin was very invested in his idea that Steve and Robin are perfect for each other. We all know why they're not together, but Dustin doesn't. He just sees Steve being best friends with Robin instead of boyfriend and girlfriend like he had expected/predicted and that throws him off. 1. He was not right about something and 2. HE'S supposed to be Steve's best friend. He feels replaced. So, he tries to replace Steve. Not totally, because he can't, but Dustin Literally says to Steve "You're just jealous I have another older male friend". Dustin doesn't have subtlety. He's Trying to make Steve jealous and it is working!

Steve and Dustin's friendship was so fresh and unexpected. They're not supposed to be friends, but they are. Steve watches Star Wars with Dustin, Steve does Dustin's hair. They save each other's lives. Attempting to recreate that brotherhood with Eddie just...doesn't work. They haven't gone through what Steve and Dustin have gone through. Plus, you're right, Steve and Dustin are on a more equal level. There's elements of mentor-student with them, but most importantly they teach each other. Steve isn't leading Dustin down a road of enlightenment, he's just hanging out with his buddy. Eddie doesn't compare.

I have zero faith in s5, which I'm barely certain I'll even be watching. The Duffers lean too hard into fan service so they're going to recreate the Justice for Barb storyline but with Dustin and it's going to suck. The Duffers don't think it's a bad thing that Dustin snipes at Steve constantly or puts down his intelligence, because it's meant to be funny. Comic relief yay. The characters on this show are mean to each other, yes, but it's annoying to deal with when we see Steve apologise for going too far when he bites back at Dustin.

[spicybylerpolls]

Here me out, I am not against a byler sex scene cause I don’t think it would be anything remotely explicit anyways so discussing it in depth for me feels pointless, but I have issues with tying a sex scene into the character arcs of mike and will as if it’s the only logical way to wrap up their story, only because had there not been a pandemic and multiple delays, byler would have happened while at least one of them was still a MINOR (maybe both I would have to do the math) and there’s no way the show woulda had a sex scene in those circumstances so it’s more likely to me that having a sex scene—while it would be interesting to go there now that the actors are older—it is not the end all be all for their character arcs and not something that *has* to happen for their end narrative to make sense, since it probably was not going to happen in the first place. So maybe let’s reframe the discussion away from “they have to bone or else all the build up and such makes no sense it’s the only way to end things because blah blah blah” and more as it would be fun/cool/hot to see something more adult now that they ARE actual adults, and it would feel satisfying to their story, but that’s it. cause some people are starting to feel so passionate about the idea that i am concerned they are going to make themselves very angry if there isn’t one …

Hmm, I kinda see your point, but I also feel like there's no real point in speculating about what might have happened in the hypothetical past where the pandemic and the strikes didn't happen because A) we don't live in that timeline lol, and B) the Duffers have always had the ending in the show in mind from the jump and many/most of the beats they knew they needed to hit along the way, BUT I personally don't think they've planned out literally every single detail from the start with no wiggle room.

The writers have said as much, like for example when they tweeted all the crazy things that were supposed to happen in season 2 like possessed Will killing Bob or El mercy killing her mom. They've definitely added and subtracted some things along the way.

Beyond that, regardless of the ages of Finn and Noah, it's not outlandish to argue that sex is still thematically connected to the characters and their arcs. Byler is a story about sexuality, of which sexual attraction and, well, sex play a huge role.

And ST is a coming-of-age show, of which sex often plays a huge role regardless of the age of the actors. During S3, the writers didn't shy away from including sexual themes such as Max's happy screams comment, and the actors were still minors then. Every season has progressed these themes further. The writers and filmmakers are the ones putting the sexual symbolism and jokes into the story, and we're just picking up what they're putting down, right?

Like, I don't think Murray using the phrase "experiment sexually" was accidental, nor was hosegate, nor was Mike checking out Will's ass lol. It's all fair game when you're telling this kind of story (as long as you're creating a safe and comfortable set, of course). Because of this, IMO, there's a high chance the ST writers would've still at least implied that Byler had sex even in your hypothetical scenario. There actually isn't a hard-and-fast rule that prevents actors who aren't legal adults yet from acting out light, non-explicit sex scenes.

You say that, "byler would have happened while at least one of them was still a MINOR (maybe both I would have to do the math) and there’s no way the show woulda had a sex scene in those circumstances," and I understand why you'd say this, but if you look closer at films and shows in media history, that's not always true. I can name several shows and films that call this theory into question.

While it's true that most modern shows with teen sex scenes do tend to also have adults already playing teenagers- there's a whole page on TV Tropes about this phenomenon called Dawson Casting- (and these tend to show a lot of skin, i.e. Euphoria), which makes it easier to explore sexual storylines, that's not the case across the board.

In your hypothetical scenario, the Byler sex scene obviously wouldn't have been an explicit one (and no one's saying it will absolutely be that way now either), but that doesn't really mean it wouldn't have existed in some form. There are many examples of coming-of-age shows/movies where the actors were technically still underage at the time of filming, and it showed them making out intensely before cutting out (and sex was implied) or it showed something slightly more (closer to Stancy) but still not anywhere near HBO-level.

McLovin's sex scene in Superbad comes to mind (his actor was still 17 at the time, and his mother had to watch while it was being filmed). Thora Birch was 16 when American Beauty was filmed. More recently, there was the Jevon sex scene in Chucky this season. Devon's actor recently turned 18, but Jake's actor is still 17. And yet the season was non-subtly building up to the scene, it was 100% tastefully done, and it cut away before anything super specific happened.

Now that both Finn and Noah ARE adults, and we know there will definitely be a time jump, this hypothetical is extra meaningless. And if the Duffers want to go further and bolder with a Byler sex scene, they can, even if this wasn't the original plan. And there's lots of brilliant analysis that argues the Duffers have been planting the seeds for a while for at least some kind of sexual resolution.

But your assertion that, "some people are starting to feel so passionate about the idea that i am concerned they are going to make themselves very angry if there isn’t one" doesn't seem based in reality either. Spicy bylers might want a sex scene, and many might believe there at least will be something implied like Jancy, but I don't think anyone will actually be angry if there isn't one. Correct me if I'm wrong? I think most people are just happy there's a space to talk about Byler in unfiltered ways, to analyze the mature themes of the show, and also to have fun while doing so, especially since the season is still a ways away. It's not like people will actually fist fight the Duffers if Mike isn't moaning and giving Will backshots in S5 💀.

What do y'all think?

[chirpsythismorning]

I'm not going to say we should take every single thing official Netflix accounts post as gospel, because obviously they are not run by the Duffer Brothers themselves.

But to be clear, these people are hired by Netflix and there's more to it than just random interns scheduling posts. The people running these accounts are not the same people designing the posts made there, just like the people designing those posts have higher ups telling them what to do/not do in terms of the content they are creating. And there are plenty more levels that go beyond that, which eventually does lead to the Duffers and producers of the show, who do have a stake in how the show is promoted on a basic level to best align with their intentions and all the revelations still to come.

It is common knowledge that the Duffers work with Netflix marketing directly on a consistent basis to get their vision across, and that carries out in promotion with posters, merchandise, social media, etc., because it's really important in ST case (with it being a show made by nerds that love easter eggs), that they foreshadow what is still to come outside of the show itself.

When it comes to social media, the core purpose of those accounts is to encourage engagement for Netflix's user base, ideally ensuring they tune in to whatever is being promoted (and more), but it’s also more than that, in that it’s even more based on data and other factors.

What this leads to is the people in those less major decision-making roles, like graphic designers, simply being advised what to create, based on the information and content they are given to work with.

And so these accounts going from promoting byler subtly for years, to blatantly posting about it post-s5, is actually very, very intentional, going beyond a simple Netflix intern. It’s orchestrated by those in management positions, being advised by those in the ST production to do things a certain way, so that when all is said and done, we are able to look back and find tiny little things that point to it.

Byler can't be something they NEVER talked about even once on social media, only to have them end up being endgame with them posting about it forever afterwards when it's all said and done. It doesn't work like that, at least not in ST case. We're talking about a production that costs hundreds of millions to make, as well as being the most talked about mainstream series of our generation.

They have an obligation to make their story feel not only satisfying on its own, but to also promote the show in a way that makes the viewer feel this whole well-rounded experience, outside of the show itself as well.

And so when ST came out in summer 2022 and Netflix Geeked was making posts about it non-stop, that wasn't a rogue, low-paid Netflix intern doing whatever they wanted. That was multiple people with a job given a task and following through with it at their advisers discretion. Regardless of where it ended up, it started at the top with the Duffers informing higher ups in marketing that Byler is something that will happen, along with other revelations that they want to inform marketing about, so they can take the steps to plan ahead and create content that matches the Duffer's vision, most often to act as a foreshadowing device for the story still unraveling.

Remember when Netflix Geeked made a post acknowledging that Will the Wise drawing in El's room back in s3?? A very well known byler easter egg that only we know about??? That wasn't some ga intern watching the show once and them spontaneously coming up with content to create related to that drawing and posting about it themselves. That was very likely someone associated with the show giving suggestions to marketing, with a few of them being very incriminating in relation to byler, but with most being casual in relation to the show overall.

Just like I said in this post about how Noah didn't tweet about byler or mention it multiple times at cons unprompted bc he was feeling quirky. He was being advised to...

And look what Netflix did to that tweet Noah posted that was clearly a stunt in an of itself.? They broadcasted it and made a cheesy ass edit out of it... And it's bc several people behind the scenes were advised to make content like that specifically.

I mean, if you actually look at how social media promotes byler (if and when it does), it's arguably in the exact way that the Duffers want it to be promoted?. Just enough. Not too little. Not too much. I would argue if the Duffers had no say whatsoever in how the show was promoted, then we'd either be seeing byler constantly or we wouldn't see them at all, instead we see social media sort of dance around it, which tells me they are following the exact approach the Duffers themselves follow... because they were obviously given the instruction to.

And so seeing an account like UK Netflix, an account that as of recent has really went all out with posting Queer content since Heartstopper released, has also notably made really incriminating posts about byler over the years, but especially as of recent. And that's in large part because of what I've stated, but also based on data.

If higher ups in marketing at Netflix know about byler, then they are very likely pushing people lower on the payroll, doing more simple tasks like graphic design and social media management, to make connections to ST with other shows like Heartstopper, Sex Education, Young Royals, etc. And this is because if byler IS going to end up being this huge Queer love story, data is telling them to make these connections sooner than later, so that the eventual revelation will be a smooth transition amongst other content just like it. This works in Netflix's favor at the end of the day, which is the whole point of all of this.

Not saying you should take the most casual of Netflix posts as byler endgame proof if that's what you're asking. But to say that these accounts have NO association with the Duffer's and ST directly, therefore we shouldn’t even appreciate anything they post if it points to byler, is sort of over-simplifying things.

It's not like s5 is gonna drop and all of these interns are going to be like OHHH okay now i'm a byler so i'll post about it... Going into s5 they're going to be making some very side eye posts and it isn't going to have anything to do with them being an intern without any say in things, its gonna be about them getting a task list and following through with it bc it's their job.

[somesaintiam]

What’s your opinion on the likeliness of birthdaygate happening? Do you think this one’s the most probable to happen?

i really like the idea of birthday gate, but my version of it is that will also did not remember his birthday due to some weird vecna stuff going on since will didnt seem to remember his own birthday imo since he seemed focused on mike and el "ignoring" him. I think this gate does have a probable chance of happening, but it is also kind of hard to tell...( even if it wasnt planned from s4, i wonder if the duffers would have to put it in anyways to fill a plot hole ) But if it does happen i would like it be used in some angst scene and cause some domino effect like.. for example birthdaygate happens (along with lettergate hopefully) and this leads to lots of stuff, then eventually.. the painting realization for mike. like at first will being taunted by vecna and vecna tells will about the day which was supposed to be his birthday. and then lots of angst. lots of it.

and i think it might be one of the most probable to happen tbh birthdaygate isnt my favorite gate but i would love for it to happen along with lettergate. Im also torn between churchgate and flickergate now bc theyre all so good🙏🙏🙏

[findafight]

Idk if you’re the person to send this to but like

The whole thing with Murray’s comments and Nancy and Jon getting together…. It is set up in such a way that it can be read as a situation where an ambitious teenage girl was pressured into what she was “supposed” to be. Nancy was told by a man that she respected and who took her seriously (and was the ONLY one to do so, so Murray gained an untold amount of trust from Nancy immediately, and the show just brushing off their relationship is such a loss but ok), that in order to be her real self she must dump Steve. Now Murray was just poking at two teenagers with a metaphorical stick to see what would they do. Understandable position, as a younger sister haver love doing that also (not with romantic feelings though but Murray was never meant to be ethical). I doubt that what the comment meant for him can be easily translated into what it meant for Nancy (let alone Jon, who thinks that he is better than most people and that he is definitely better than Steve, so I imagine he was nodding along). But he did influence her into becoming an investigative journalist. Like Murray with him taking Nancy seriously influenced her into two major life altering decisions (career and significant other). Like wow. And they never interacted again! Fucking hate st continuity.

Like Nancy dumping Steve because Murray told her to do so is a major thing. It’s BAD for jancy. Before s4 I thought that they were not mentioning it because jancy happened and was the endgame. But with them toying with stancy and likely knowing that they might toy with stancy all along??? Why did they not leave it open to interpretation. It’s such a juicy storyline, it shows the magnitude of the influence that you can have on a teenage girl, it’s beautiful, it’s painful, it’s the stuff of a real love-triangle (which is hard to make interesting but that would make it interesting!!!). Why did they write it then??? Whyyyyyy?????

oooooh that's so interesting anon!

I am much more of a murray fan when he is being a weird gay conspiracy uncle guy and isn't matchmaking, it must be said.

He and Nancy have the potential for a really interesting dynamic! It really is a shame we don't get to see more of it tbh. and you are so right in what his comment meaning to him and what it meant to Nancy and Jon separately would be so different! I don't know if Nancy would necessarily feel pressured by it, (though I wouldn't say she wasn't, either) but maybe it would vindicate something of how she was feeling about her relationship with Steve at the time and her feelings for Jonathan? Like a "oh this man I respect and who takes me seriously also thinks Jonathan is better for me, thinks I should go for it. Maybe I will..." kind of thing?

And lol yeah so true Jon just had his own conception of himself and Steve and their relationships with Nancy confirmed by Murray. he just kinda got...permission? I guess? to make a move on Nancy even though he was the one bringing up Steve both times he's mentioned on the road trip.

Totally see where you're coming from of Murray's influence not being mentioned because you figured Jancy was endgame, makes sense (if boring) to not question it if it doesn't need to be addressed as an issue because the pairing is canon for the rest. But now the teen love triangle has been brought back.... you're so right it is bad for Jancy. It brings up stuff about them that a lot of people (especially the Duffers!) don't want to deal with or acknowledge. Though I don't think they were planning the whole time to bring stancy back I think that sort of happened because the duffers unfortunately don't know what to do with Nacy if she doesn't have a boy to look at and Steve when he isn't pining over Nancy.

There's not enough time left to fully and satisfyingly delve into the issues between the original older teens, especially since some of those issues aren't treated as issues. It would be interesting to see, and also so so juicy, the complicated relationship they have with each other because of the UD etc, but I don't think a whole lot of interesting canon material will come from it (though that doesn't mean fan content can't!!) just based on how other romantic relationships and their dynamics with each other have been treated through the show. tbh I think maybe s5 will tease the love triangle but ultimately either end up with them all single (my preference) or with Jancy still together.

[thestobingirlie]

To answer your Byler question: it’s about the slow burn of it all and about the audience that the story will reach. I don’t really know what you mean by “with gay rep the way it is now” because the state of gay rep rn is just two characters getting together after a few episodes of no buildup. Regardless of Will and Mike being white (which I’m going to assume is what you’re getting at), there are very few modern gay stories out there that spend this long on a slow build and the careful construction of a seasons-long sexuality arc. That is what would make Byler so unique if it ever becomes canon, compounded by the fact that ST is the most mainstream of mainstream shows. This isn’t Heartstopper or Schitt’s Creek or another gay show whose audience is limited because it’s targeted specifically to gay people — Everyone and their mother watches it, and that means that everyone will end up witnessing Byler’s story if it happens. That is what would make this special and groundbreaking. 

Of course, no one should be dismissing the importance of Robin as a character on her own, and lesbophobes claiming that Robin and Vickie mean nothing is unfair, but your point about it being the other way around (aka Byler meaning nothing Vickie and Robin as a couple) doesn’t make any sense, as Rovickie has had barely had 5 minutes of screen time together compared to the way Byler has been built up since S1. Even Robin and Nancy got more screen time than them, hence Rovickie’s complete lack of popularity. Stranger Things had the opportunity to make Vickie important in s4 and chose not to do it. It’s no different than any other show, where as you said, the wlw couple is just in the background. It’s nice that ST included a love interest for Robin, but it would have been more meaningful if she was actually a character in her own right. 

(And Robin and Vickie are also white, btw.) 

okay.

first, i would like you to watch more gay shows, because from the sounds of it you are not very well versed. but that’s okay!

second, i mentioned will and mike are white because while there are a lot of white mlm ships around nowadays, that number obviously drops with gay characters of colour, and i wanted to be clear i was taking that into consideration.

third, and i presume this is where our opinions majorly differ, i don’t think will’s sexuality arc has been handled as well as it could have been. and i think if the majority of the audience is unable to recognise that mike is going through a sexuality arc, then byler won’t be recognised as a slowburn anyway.

fourth, other shows have been popular and included gay characters and couples. and people are already calling stranger things a “gay show” because they have one lesbian and one gay character. though i think it’s very sweet that you think people, at the bare minimum, watching byler happen will make byler groundbreaking. a ship isn’t groundbreaking just because it’s been seen by a certain amount of people.

now, you seem… riled by my comparison of rockie to byler lmao. i think you misunderstood my tags. so i suppose there’s a few things to address with this too lol.

so. i very very much so doubt byler has been built from s1, because the duffers didn’t plan past s1. we were never going to see those characters again. the duffers are largely making this shit up as they go along.

a lot of bylers i’ve seen on tumblr seem to have this… obsession with making stranger things the mike and will show, and it just isn’t. and i think they’re doing a disservice to the characters and the ship by imagining this importance.

and i don’t think rockie not having a main part is a bad thing. i want my gay characters to exist past their sexuality. rockie isn’t groundbreaking! so many ships have come before it lmao. but it doesn’t need to be groundbreaking. i’m okay with vickie being introduced this season as her love interest, and robin having a life and arc outside of vickie. that’s how most side romances go. that’s what happened with dustin and suzie! if vickie receives no time at all in s5 and rockie end up together off screen, then yes, obviously i’ll be annoyed at the lack of time given to them. but that’s a problem for future me.

my point was rockie having their moment, and dating, and us watching it throughout s5 would mean more to me than byler happening. not that everyone shouldn’t care about byler rep lmao.

(and i know rockie are white, babe, but wlw shows are being cancelled regardless of if they’re both white)

[thegayhimbo]

Stranger Things Suspicious Minds Review

WARNING: The following review contains MAJOR SPOILERS for the book, as well as Stranger Things Season 4!

If you haven't yet, be sure to check out my other Stranger Things Reviews! Like, Reblog, and let me know what your thoughts are in the comment section! :)

Stranger Things Six

Stranger Things Halloween Special

Stranger Things The Other Side

Stranger Things Zombie Boys

Stranger Things The Bully

Stranger Things Winter Special

Stranger Things Tomb of Ybwen

Stranger Things Into The Fire

Stranger Things Science Camp

Stranger Things “The Game Master” and “Erica’s Quest”

Stranger Things and Dungeons and Dragons

Stranger Things Kamchatka

Stranger Things Erica The Great

Stranger Things “Creature Feature” and “Summer Special”

Synopsis: The year is 1969, and Dr. Martin Brenner has set up his base of operations at Hawkins Lab. Having brought along a five year old Kali/Eight to keep her contained while her powers develop, Brenner begins recruiting new tests subject for the MKULTRA Project in the hopes of finding others with potential. When college student Terry Ives hears about the experiment, she becomes intrigued and signs up for the program, believing it to be extremely important in shaping the course of history. However, as she starts spending more time on the project, she begins to realize the Lab and Dr. Brenner are not what they seem.........

Observations:

This is going to be a longer review compared to my other ones because I had a lot to say about the book, the show's mythology, and certain theories I have that might come to fruition in season 5. This will be split into four parts (which are titled below), so heads up on that! :)

Last year, when season 4 premiered, I ordered all the Stranger Things tie-in materials that were out at the time, and this was the first book in the series I read. I wanted to know more about the experiments Terry Ives was put through which would eventually lead to her conceiving Eleven, as well as what methods Dr. Brenner used to create human beings with extraordinary powers. To the book's credit, it (somewhat) answers those questions, but also leaves others vague or ambiguous. I couldn't tell if that's because Netflix and Random House Books planned for there to be more sequels to Suspicious Minds. If that was the case, it's probably a moot point now considering the direction the Duffer Brothers went in season 4.

The question I'm sure people are going to ask is whether or not this book is canon, and the honest answer is I don't know. The book was written by Gwenda Bond, and in her acknowledgements, she gives credit to "creative consultant" Paul Dichter for notes and advice. Paul Dichter is a writer who's been on the show since season 1, so there was someone from the writing team who oversaw this novel as it developed. The problem though is 1.) There is a continuity snarl in the book that contradicts information stated on the show, and 2.) The direction the Duffer Brothers took in season 4 begs the question of whether Gwenda Bond or even Paul Dichter had all the information about the show's mythology (such as Henry/One/Vecna and his relationship with Brenner, or Colonel Sullivan and the factions in the U.S. government opposed to the MKULTRA Project).

Because of these factors, I'm looking at this book more as an analysis of what it can tell us about the thought process behind the writers when it came to crafting the show's mythology and certain characters.

Part 1: The Upside Down's connection to the test subjects of Hawkins Lab.

Back in my review of Stranger Things Six, I proposed a theory that the abilities special kids like El, Kali, and Henry/One/Vecna had were connected to the Upside Down. Whether or not some force from the Upside Down gives them their powers remains to be seen, but both supplementary materials and even the show have implied there's a link between the two. Out of all the places Vecna could have been banished to by El, it comes off as too much of a coincidence that she sent him to the Upside Down once she fully tapped into her powers. It's even doubtful El knew what she was doing in that moment when she dissolved him like that. She wanted Henry/One/Vecna gone, but nothing indicates she had any foreknowledge of the Upside Down, or that she consciously sent him to that dimension.

That's not even getting into how she made contact with the Demogorgon in season 1 despite never seeing it before and not knowing what it was, or how her powers went haywire once she did and ripped open a gate between the two worlds.

In Suspicious Minds, Terry befriends another test subject named Alice Johnson, a mechanic who has a love for fixing machines as well as taking them apart and rebuilding them. When she's given psychedelics and administered electroshocks as part of the experiment, she begins having visions of the Upside Down and the Demogorgon:

Eventually, these visions show Alice parts of the future, such as Eleven being under Dr. Brenner's control and Terry Ives's eventual fate of being caught and administered repeated electroshocks by Brenner until she was reduced to the current state she's in on the show.

A lot of this is similar to what Francine/Six went through in her comic debut: She repeatedly had visions of the Demogorgon in the Upside Down, and even saw glimpses of future events as they played out:

The major difference between Francine/Six and Alice is that Six was shown to be psychic way before Dr. Brenner met her, whereas Alice only began to develop psychic abilities when she started taking acid and was given electroshocks.

This conundrum between characters who were born with special gifts and characters who had their gifts unlocked later in life is something that plays out on the show: Henry/One/Vecna was established as different from other kids growing up, but it wasn't until he moved into the Creel House at the age of 12 that he discovered his abilities. Whether or not something in the house caused his powers to activate or if he just discovered them naturally remains to be seen. Terry wasn't able to remote-view into the void until she began taking LSD during the experiments, and would use that to communicate with Kali in the book and El in season 2 when she came to visit her mother for the first time. El was born with her abilities as a result of the experiments and acid trips Terry went through while she was pregnant.

The idea suggested on the show and by supplementary materials is that psychedelics like LSD and Acid unlock something in the brain, allowing certain individuals to access psychokinetic abilities. However, it's unclear if the implication is supposed to be that the majority of humans have psychological inhibitors that prevent them from having those abilities, or if it all depends on the individual having those abilities at all.

In the book, there are two other test subjects, Gloria and Ken, who undergo similar experiments at the lab, and they don't have the same visions of the Upside Down Alice has, nor are they able to remote view like Terry can. While Ken claims to be psychic, it has more to do with certain feelings he gets about individuals, and when something happens to them. Case in point: He knows about Andrew's death before he's ever informed about it:

However, he doesn't have visions of the future or the Upside Down the same way Alice does. And as Brenner notes later on, the results of the experiments with Ken were lackluster by his standards:

That's not even getting into the other participants at the beginning of the novel (prisoners, insane patients, potheads, and draft dodgers) who were given the same experimental treatments and never showed the results Alice and Terry did. Based on that, the development of psychokinetic abilities likely has a lot to do with the person in question rather than the psychedelics themselves. Brenner even proposes a theory that a mind starting out as a blank slate and not corrupted by outside influences plays a major role in an individual developing certain abilities. It's a big reason why he allows Terry to continue coming back to the lab for experiments despite knowing she's pregnant at the time, and despite the trouble she causes him:

It's also why he keeps Kali/Eight separate from other people besides him:

That's all well and good, but that doesn't do much to explain Henry/One/Vecna's situation, and why his powers were dormant for 12 years before they suddenly weren't. They haven't established him taking psychedelics as a kid to unlock his abilities, and his angry, nihilistic rant to El at the lab conveys he was well exposed to the world around him and wasn't "a blank slate" in the same way El or even Kali were.

This is why I lean heavily on the theory of the Upside Down being connected to the abilities certain individuals have. Some kind of force or presence in that dimension acting as an influence on people without them realizing it, which could explain how they get those powers. I would even argue the LSD/acid acts as a tunnel between the Upside Down and the human mind via telekinetic energy. It's something the comic Stranger Things Kamchatka also touches upon when Dr. Orlov created a device that harnesses telekinetic energy to bridge this world with "someplace else:"

On a semi-related note, it's interesting that every time Vecna established a psychic connection with his victims before killing them, he would do it while held up in the air by vines attached to his back:

The implication I drew from this is that said vines in Vecna's back acted as a way for him to draw power from the Upside Down. In other words, the nature of the Upside Down amplifies his abilities. For now, I'm leaning on the theory that the Upside Down is the original source of his power, and that some force from it reached Henry as a kid all those years ago at the Creel House, which activated those abilities.

Part 2: The Characters

Getting back to the book, the synopsis speaks for itself: It's a prequel centered around Terry Ives (El's mother) during her time at the Lab with Dr. Brenner, and the experiments she was subjected to that led to the creation of Eleven. While there, she befriends several other test subjects: Alice Johnson, a mechanic who (as I described before) begins having visions of the Upside Down and the future once she's given LSD and electroshocks during the experiments. Gloria Flowers, a black college student with a love for the X-Men comics who's forced to join the project to get credits for her classes. And Ken, a self-proclaimed psychic who's later revealed to be gay. All four of them form a fellowship similar to the one in The Lord of the Rings (which is something referenced in-universe by the characters themselves) as they begin to question the nature and ethics of the experiments they're undergoing.

From the way the group is written here, it's clear they're meant to invoke the Party from the show. Ken for instance has a lot of similarities to Will in his sexual orientation and having some elements of being psychic and getting certain feelings at different moments (though in Will's case, it's usually when Vecna/The Mind Flayer is active). Lucas has many similarities to Gloria in being the pragmatic member of the group and having to deal with racism directed at them because of who they are. Alice is similar to Dustin in their natural curiosity about how things work. And finally, Terry has similarities to Mike in their desire to protect the people they love and being the ones to lead the group forward in pursuit of a goal.

The book also introduces Terry's boyfriend, Andrew Rich, who's revealed to be El's true biological father. Andrew is a product of the counterculture movement of the 1960s, both in his opposition to the war in Vietnam, his (valid) distrust of the government, and his willingness to participate in events such as Woodstock and protests about social issues. The book describes him as being rich enough to afford his apartment, and Terry at one point notes he's a little spoiled because of his parents money and his expectation that it will bail him out of any trouble he gets into. Despite this, he isn't entitled or mean-spirited. He's 100% supportive of Terry, and he's shown to genuinely believe in the causes he protests for. All of which makes his fate heartbreaking later on.

If you thought Brenner was a monster for what he did to Terry Ives years later, this book makes his actions even worse. Not only did he steal El as a baby and had Terry's brain fried when she tried (and failed) to get her back, but he's also responsible for the death of Andrew. After Andrew gets in trouble at the University for protesting against the Vietnam War, Brenner specifically pulls strings in the government to get Andrew's lottery number drawn so that he's sent to the front lines in Vietnam to be killed. All of which is done to get Terry back under Brenner's control. And sadly, it works.

On top of that, Brenner's behavior in this book is straight-up psychopathic with traces of narcissism. I don't mean this the way internet users like to throw those words around to describe people they don't like, but in the actual diagnostic sense: He has no empathy for anyone, not even Kali/Eight whom he views as a lab rat and not as a five year old girl with wants and needs. He has zero issues firing people just for questioning him, or because they react in a way that irritates him. He has no moment of consciousness about pushing the boundaries of his experiments, and his reaction to possibly getting someone killed is to note the loss of potential rather than feel any guilt over his actions. He lacks remorse, he's ruthless in his pursuit of his goals, he makes impulsive decisions based on the results it will get him and doesn't give a damn about the collateral damage he causes, he's definitely power-hungry, expects nothing but respect and unquestioning loyalty from others regardless of whether or not he deserves it, and from what little we do see of his personal life, he appears to have no close relationships. Everyone is a pawn to him.

And to the people out there who keep insisting that Brenner loved the kids under his care............he didn't. His interactions with Kali/Eight in this book are proof of that. Not only is he abusive towards her (including depriving her of sleep when he finds out she's been keeping secrets from him), but his internal thoughts about her make it very clear that he does not empathize with Kali, and only indulges her on occasion to keep her under his thumb.

On a related note, this is why I take issue with Brenner apologists in the fandom who buy into the excuses he makes to El in season 4 when she confronts him about his past sins. For all the posturing he makes about caring for the special kids in his care, the truth is it was ALWAYS about him and what he wanted. He saw a potential weapon when he met Henry/One/Vecna, used him to replicate other kids with similar abilities, and was not above abusing and gaslighting them to get results. Vecna was right on the money when he said that it was all about control for Brenner. Even in the book, he displays this attitude, which rightfully disgusts Terry:

This is why I also don't agree with people who insist Brenner was redeemed in season 4. He wasn't. He never takes any responsibility for the damage he causes, and keeps insisting everything he did was justified when it wasn't. Even his dying breath is used trying to guilt-trip El into absolving him for his behavior by begging her to "understand." That is NOT redemption. And based on how El refuses to absolve Brenner as he's dying, she feels the same way. There are some things you can't be forgiven for.

Kali/Eight is also present here. She's 5 years old when this story takes place, and Brenner has kept her isolated from the other kids (and test subjects) because he wants her powers to develop more. One day, during her experiments at the lab, Terry accidentally finds Kali while roaming the halls, and after befriending her, Kali becomes a main factor in why Terry and her friends keep returning to the Lab despite knowing that Brenner is bad news: They think Kali's being held against her will by Brenner and are trying to find a way to help her escape.

If you've seen the first 2 seasons, you know EXACTLY how that's going to go.

The tragedy with Kali's character is, because of how young she is, she doesn't fully comprehend the situation around her. On some level, she's aware that Brenner is dishonest, and a big source of contention between them for most of the book is her being upset with Brenner because he keeps promising to give her a friend to play with and doesn't deliver (he only fulfills that promise at the end once he's kidnapped El, and it's not out of the pure goodness of his heart). Unfortunately, because Brenner is the parent figure she knows at that time, she still refers to him as "Papa," and goes along with what he wants because she doesn't know any better. She also isn't able to keep her visits with Terry a secret, which Brenner is quick to find out about from Kali and use to manipulate both her and Terry going forward.

This all adds new context to the scene in "The Lost Sister" when Kali is persuading El to kill Ray Carroll, the orderly responsible for torturing Kali when she was a child and frying Terry's brain with electroshocks on Brenner's orders. She isn't just pressuring El out of a desire for revenge, but also because she holds herself responsible for El and Terry's current predicament. She isn't at fault for what happened (the blame is 100% on Brenner), but she still feels like she is.

I said this before in my review of Into the Fire, but I sincerely hope the Duffer Brothers bring Kali back for season 5 and give her story a proper conclusion. There was a lot left in the air the night El left Kali behind to return to Hawkins, and it would be cathartic if both of them got closure, and if Kali was able to let go of her anger towards those who wronged her and maybe find companionship and familial love from El. My biggest worry is that, because of how badly she's hurting and because she's still lashing out from the wrongs done to her, she might be susceptible to Vecna's manipulations, especially if he tries to recruit her and use her against El. I have hope she won't descend into the same darkness Vecna has, and that she can find a way to heal, but we'll have to wait and see.

Part 3: The Ending

The last 50 pages of this book were rough to get through. It's not that they were badly written, but when you've seen the show, you know exactly what's going to happen: Kali isn't going to be rescued from the lab, Terry is going to give birth to El and have her stolen by Brenner, and Terry will spent the next several years fruitlessly trying to get El back before Brenner subjects her to a fate worse than death. The only victory Terry manages to achieve at all is faking Alice's death and helping her escape to Canada so Brenner can't use her in further experiments. It's like the writers realized it would be too much of a Downer Ending unless Terry got some way of sticking it to Brenner, so they gave her that moment as compensation. Unfortunately, it still doesn't make the ending any less depressing.

On top of that, one of the aspects that bothers me is, for all the camaraderie shown between Terry and her friends............we never see them again. There's no mention on the show about Gloria or Ken or Alice and if they're still fighting against Brenner or if they know about what happened to Terry. Did Brenner have them hunted down and silenced? Are they still alive? We're never given an answer, and it's likely we might not get one unless they write a sequel to this book. I remember a while back I had a conversation with @pusheen1802 and @lavandulaphoenix about the possibility of a spin-off focusing on Terry's friends, but that remains to be seen, and the spin-offs they have announced don't seem to be centered on that.

And this brings me to how Suspicious Minds ties in with the show....

Part 4: Canon and Continuity on Stranger Things

I said at the beginning of this review that there was a continuity snarl that I couldn't ignore, and that has to do with the year El was born.

The main plot takes place between July 1969 and June 1970 (with an epilogue on November 1970). According to the book, Terry got pregnant in November 1969, and she later gave birth to El in June 1970 after Brenner unknowingly gives Terry a special dose to cause her to give birth earlier than usual. Based on this, it would mean El would have been 13 by the time the first season of Stranger Things starts.

However, on the show, it's specifically stated that El was 12 years old when Becky is telling Hopper and Joyce about the circumstances behind Terry's supposed miscarriage.

From Season 1, Episode 6 "The Monster:"

Becky: I don't think you guys understand. Terry miscarried in the third trimester. She keeps all of this up. Been doing it for 12 years. [sigh] Terry, uh, pretends like Jane is real--like she's gonna come home someday.

If El was 12 years old, that would mean she would have to have been born in 1971. Even if we're being generous and rounding the numbers, she still would have to be 13 if she was born in 1970.

Some people might call this a small nitpick, but it's one that bothers me. I've come to accept that the Duffer Brother and the writing team for Stranger Things may not be so great with numbers and dates (*cough* Will's Birthday *cough*), but oversights like this make me question whether this book can count as canon because of that.

Then there's everything to do with Henry/One/Vecna. It's pretty clear based on how the book was written that Gwenda Bond (and likely Paul Dichter) were kept in the dark by the Duffer Brothers about One's importance to Brenner and Hawkins Lab. There is no instance in the book where Brenner ever thinks or talks about One despite him being the reason the MKULTRA program took off like it did. His inner dialogue is focused on how Kali/Eight has been the only test subject who has shown powerful abilities, and how all the other kids at the lab were "ordinary so far." Based on what's revealed in season 4, we know this isn't true. Henry/One/Vecna had powers by the time he fell into Brenner's care, and had already used them to murder his mother and sister. Brenner also knew that Henry/One/Vecna was dangerous enough that he had to be controlled, which is why he placed the soteria chip in Vecna to keep his abilities suppressed.

And I get for the purposes of the twist in season 4 why the Duffer Brothers withheld information about Henry/One/Vecna, but it unfortunately creates a plot-hole in the book when Brenner is acting like Kali/Eight is the only child who's demonstrated powers thus far.

Final Thoughts:

Usually, I give a recommendation about whether or not someone should check out a Stranger Things Tie-In, but in this case, I'm not sure how to proceed.

The book itself is well-written, and it gives interesting insight into the thought process behind the mythology of the show. It also fleshes out Terry and Brenner's characters while allowing the audience to see the circumstances behind the experiments at Hawkins Lab. However, for the reasons I've just described, I can't 100% claim this book is canon.

I hope this review has given a general overview about the book, and I hope it helps people to decide whether they want to read it or not. For what it's worth, I'm glad I did.

Coming Soon: Stranger Things Runaway Max

[marypsue]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on S1 of ST being a tragedy! No main character dies, so I never thought of it that way before

I mean, nobody has to die for a story to be a tragedy (at least, in the modern definition. I'm pretty sure '(almost) everybody dies' is a requirement of Greek tragedies and Renaissance revenge tragedies). But also, no main character dies in season one...if you take season one as part of a series. Which it wasn't originally conceived as.

I am not going looking for copies of the original pitch bible, because I am lazy, and also I only saw them floating around this webbed site. But the show changed a lot from the initial pitch (Joyce had a Long Island accent! Lucas' parents were divorcing! Murray was there and named Terry Ives! Most of what ended up in Hopper's character originally belonged to Mr. Clarke! The original pitch bible is fascinating). And part of the original pitch was a proposal for possible sequels.

The Duffers' proposal for a possible sequel was "It's ten years later, and Eleven is dead".

So that's the setup. Everything that came after season one was made up wholecloth after season one was a hit and people wanted more, but also people loved the adorable little psychic murder child (cue the Duffers shockedpikachu.jpg) and Netflix obviously recognised it would be a bad call to make a new season without her in it. So it makes sense to take season one as a unit, as a self-contained story on its own. You can also take it as part of a whole, but it makes sense to read it first as a complete story. Especially given the thematic drift of later seasons and the way they are...I'm just going to say it, each new season is very much added-on to what came before rather than being built on foundation that the earlier season(s) laid. It is very clear there was never a planned five-season story arc from the beginning. (This isn't necessarily always a bad thing, when it comes to sequels, but it does mean it makes sense to 'read' each season as its own thing.)

Okay, now that we've established all of that. Season one has one very clear goal, one very clear stake for the characters: save Will Byers from the Upside Down. (I like this. It makes the stakes both extremely high and extremely personal, it makes it very easy to understand each character's motivation, it also keeps the stakes grounded in reality. I like this a lot.) And by the end of the season, that goal is accomplished. So at first blush, you're right, season one doesn't look like a tragedy.

But when you start to unpack it a little, you start to see just how many important things were lost along the way. It's most glaringly obvious with Mike and El, with Nancy and Barb. The whole Wheeler family is fractured down the middle, with Mike and Nancy on one side and Ted, Karen, and Holly on the other, and Karen, who's been trying so hard the whole time to be part of her children's lives and understand what's going on with them, is aware of the ever-expanding gulf between them but will never be able to cross it, and will never fully know why. Hopper's finally managed to snatch a kid out of the jaws of death, save a woman he obviously cares about from the pain of losing a child, and Joyce has finally had someone believe her, support her, trust her. But it became blindingly obvious to me on my fourth rewatch that Hopper's plan, from the moment he went to leave the middle school gym, was always to trade El for Will. And that decision (and the fact that Joyce obviously understands that he did something to get the lab to let them go after Will, but she obviously doesn't dare press him on what) has broken her trust in him, and left him with what looks like an equally heavy burden of guilt as what he was carrying before. The lab stays open. The government gets away with everything. No one will ever know the true extent of the hurt they've caused.

And in the end, none of it even saved Will. He's back. He's alive. But he's spitting slugs in the sink. He's permanently marked by the Upside Down, and by trying to hide it from his family, he's putting a crack down the centre of them, as well. They're losing Will, just as surely as they had when they thought he was dead, just without him going anywhere.

And there's still a hole in the world.

The fragile bonds of community, the things that people share in common, the way catastrophe can bring people together and bring out the very best in them, are the major thematic threads woven through season one. Human connection is the only thing that can change what seems inevitable, the only thing that can bring back what's seemingly lost forever.

And it's still not enough to protect anyone from the random tragedy of the world.

The love was there. The love mattered. The love bent the entire course of the world around itself.

And it still wasn't quite enough.

If that's not a tragedy, then I don't know what is.

[asoiafpostsfromanothertimeline]

Just Announced! Netflix’s “The Conciliator” — First Look at the Official Cast for Spinoff in Popular "Ice and Fire" Franchise

Netflix’s Ice and Fire took the world by storm in the 2010’s. With over 30 Emmy and Critic’s Choice wins (and twice that many nominations) fans were certain the show would have get the ending it deserved. Those hopes were quickly dashed, however, when author George R.R. Martin and Netflix executives couldn’t work out a writing contract for Season 5. Since then, renewals and spin-offs have been rumored to the Wall and back, with none true—until now. The Conciliator will follow the life and reign of King Jaehaerys the First, the third Targaryen king to rule the fictional land of Westeros. Taking place 200 years before the events of Ice and Fire, the new show will serve as a prequel to the original series. Martin hopes the show will “provide some interesting insights into the history of the Targaryen dynasty, which is an important plot element in A Dream of Spring, my last book. (We can only hope this means a release date for The Winds of Winter is imminent!)

Slated to air in 2025, The Conciliator is helmed by Matt and Ross Duffer, fresh off season 6 of Stranger Things. They’re “looking forward to switching gears from science fiction to fantasy” and were “mega fans” of the original series. Conciliator will begin its story during the last day of King Aenys' reign and aims to cover King Jaehaerys' rule until his death. Will the Duffers continue the story afterward? "Jae's story actually sets a Targaryen civil war," Ross Duffer says. "If all goes to plan, the sky's the limit there, really. Unless you're a dragon, haha." (Note: Jae is the Duffers' nickname for their titular character, who they "already view like a son.") The Duffers are also bringing along some familiar faces to their Ice and Fire universe journey, too—Stranger Things stars Finn Wolfhard and David Harbour are slated to play a 14-year-old Jaehaerys Targaryen and his usurping uncle, Maegor the Cruel, respectively. Check out the full cast here: Finn Wolfhard as Jaehaerys Targaryen I Madeline Arthur as Alysanne Targaryen Sarah Paulson as Alyssa Velaryon Tom Hiddleston as Aenys Targaryen Julia Garner as Rhaena Targaryen Timothée Chalamet as Aegon Targaryen (the 2nd) David Harbour as Maegor Targaryen Cate Blanchett as Visenya Targaryen (Read the full article here on Vaulter)

wow! what do we think? i'm still super bummed that ice and fire ended before dany ever got to westeros, but it was probably for the best since they ran out of grrm source material lmao.

[jonathanbyersphd]

Hot Take:

If the goal was to show how much Jonathan is willing to sacrifice for other people’s happiness the Duffers have actually written him exceptionally well. 

This is going to be long I’m sorry

Now before you all get out the pitchforks hear me out. Nancy flat out says that Jonathan doesn’t back down even if it comes at a great personal cost In season 1 Jonathan is risking his life to find/save Will. I mean everyone is but we see that Jonathan would rather lie to his mother, confront his abusive father and die by demogorgon if it means Will is safe and Joyce is happy. (we won’t get into the implications that Jonathan thinks Joyce loves Will more but it’s good to keep in mind) Additionally, I would argue that the other reason that Jonathan is doing what he’s doing in s1 is because he thinks Will going missing is his fault. Therefore, it’s Jonathan’s responsibility to bring Will home safe and sound no matter what.  

Season 2 is where we start to see a less motivated Jonathan in terms of main story plot. For lack of a better word he spends the season as Nancy’s sidekick. Nancy wants justice and Jonathan is willing to be abducted by the government, drive all over Indiana-Illinois and deal with Murray if it means that she gets justice and is happy. And yes, we could argue that Jonathan says what the lab did makes him mad but again it’s Nancy’s plan and he’s supporting her. Even if he’s missing school/ knows something is going on with Will and missing that too. 

In terms of s3 I think this is really where the idea is driven home. Throughout the entire season we see Jonathan tell Nancy that her story is a bad idea, that he could get fired (we already know the Byers need the money and Jonathan has been working since s1 to help). BUT he goes along with Nancy anyway. It’s highlighted especially in the darkroom scene. Nancy offers him a way out in saying she’ll just take the keys and Jonathan who wants to make her happy (seen in the previous scene after her pitch meeting) goes with her anyway. Jonathan knows he could get fired but he sacrifices his needs for Nancy’s happiness. 

Season 4 is where it gets interesting, First of all it’s never mentioned that Jonathan applied to NYU (where we know he’s wanted to go since he was 6) this is probably a writing error but this could also be in the story to show us that Jonathan shifted what he wanted to accommodate what Nancy wanted (Emerson) Additionally, Jonathan says that if he tells Nancy he can’t/won’t go to college she would come out to CA to be with him/give up her dreams and he can’t live with that. This establishes that Jonathan in no way expects people to make the same level of sacrifices for him. He’s the one who has to stay behind to take care of his mom/Will (and presumably El) What’s more interesting is that Jonathan DOESN’T need to stay home to take care of them. We’re  shown that though it’s not explicitly told so it may go unnoticed here’s why 1. Joyce is working from home which means she’s always physically there 2. (more important imo) The Byers have moved upward financially (the Lenora house alone shows us that, but we also see brand name syrup when s3 had generic, Will has an easel/paints, El has all of her craft supplies) the Byers aren’t struggling to the point that Jonathan needs to also work (if he did Argyle would’ve been introduced as Jonathan’s coworker or Jonathan would have been more antsy about his car being broken). 3. Lastly, I think Jonathan’s insistence that he has to stay home just reinforces the idea that he thinks of Will as his responsibility (not that he doesn’t love Will) but the idea that 18 year old Jonathan should be solely responsible for 15 yo Will’s well-being is parentification plain and simple. But Jonathan would rather sacrifice his teenage/young adulthood if it means that Will is happy. 

If you have read this far congratulations, but I’m not done yet. 

Now if you’re thinking surely Jonathan must have wants outside of protecting his family/their happiness and you’re right he does: NANCY

From s2:  Jonathan could’ve gone home after dropping off Will but instead he went to Tina’s party because he wanted to be with Nancy. (That’s why you get the shot of him pining when Steve & Nancy are dancing) He takes Nancy home he tucks her in and takes off her shoes because he wanted to take care of her. But I think the most telling thing is at Murray’s Jonathan is already halfway in the living room when Nancy leaves her room because he wants to talk (kiss) her. Which moves us to the more important point JONATHAN KISSED NANCY FIRST.  And yes, this could have been done as a more romantic option or whatever but as someone who has edited the scene over & over it’s clear that Jonathan was choosing to want Nancy no matter how selfish it might have been. (the state of St*ncy is murky at this point in story and Nancy did just say she loves him even if Jonathan knew she was lying) That’s why you get that shot after he kisses her of him in the doorframe looking at her like “I want you don’t you want me too?” (kudos to Charlie for portraying this emotion) 

And if you don’t believe me, we see that again in s4. Jonathan contradicts himself, he says he needs to stay for Will but when it settles in that Nancy could be in danger he’s moving hell & earth to be by her side in Hawkins because that’s where he wants to be. (In-Universe El is taken, Cali Crew finds out about Vecna, Jonathan decides on jailbreak, and the boys leave in less than 24 hours) Jonathan could’ve looked at that picture and said no Will (Mike too) is safer here with agents guarding the house. They might go looking for El but Jonathan’s call to action is Nancy. That’s why we see him apologize for not being there because despite him giving up on college with her and him saying he needs to be there for his family where he wants to be is right by her side. 

To wrap up: Maybe I’m giving the Duffers too much credit, maybe it’s late and I’ve lost my mind, but I really do think that overall they’ve been trying to show us that Jonathan will sacrifice himself if it makes others happy. And that they haven’t been ignoring writing his character it’s just been subtle because it’s supposed to be. I know this is a hot-take but Jonathan is supposed to blend into the background, but he’s present and accounted for when he thinks that people need him. (again kudos to Charlie for his background Jonathan actions) When he can do something that will make others happy/help them in some way, even if it’s not what he wants to do. 

Obviously, the preferable resolution to this would be for Jonathan to do things he wants to do. Not what he thinks he has to do. But whether or not that will happen, or whether or not I’m wrong will be revealed next season. Either way, I don’t think Jonathan will be in the background of s5. 

TLDR: The Duffers have written Jonathan in a way that perfectly shows how little he wants for himself 

[stobinesque]

read my beloved!!! i am here to ask for a Wayfinder snippet because while yes, i am a proud supporter of the Jeff Agenda, i am also a proud supporter of lucas sinclair and believe he should get everything he wants forever <3

also actual question about Wayfinder (which you may have already talked about somewhere and I've just Missed It whoops): when you say S4 Fix-It, does that by any chance happen to include addressing how the championship game/hellfire clash was handled? Because I have Thoughts and Feelings about that plot point and love when fics explore Lucas' feelings about it

Charlie!!! I will certainly tag you in both snippets, and thanks for the question, my friend! 🥰

My full tagline for Wayfinder is "Season four fix-it, but the thing we're fixing is (the Duffer's) racism."* So definitely a huge part of the focus will be on exploring Lucas' feelings about the fallout from the championship game/hellfire scenario, as well as Lucas getting The Apology He Deserves from his friends/Eddie. But the fic will also end up diverging from canon in every place where the answer to the question "how would the average black person in The Real World actually react to this situation?" is different from what the Duffers decided had to happen for Plot Reasons. (Including how all of the Sinclair family reacts to the police**, and just...everything surrounding the plan for the rightside-up Creel House infiltration.) I have a lot of ideas for how the last couple of episodes are going to go relative to canon and I'm super excited to get to put a new spin on the season four fix-it genre ☺️

*Also in more traditional s4 fix-it fashion Eddie will live

**There is actually a compelling way to have the Sinclair family be generally cooperative with the (local) police. In some ways I even think it is, on balance, more realistic for a middle-class black family in the 80s to adhere to a "go along to get along" philosophy. That said, since the Duffers do not afford the Sinclairs any of that nuance--and indeed seem to be allergic to the idea that Charles and Sue would try to prepare their black children for the challenges of living in a predominantly white, rural town in any way--I'm just going full ACAB with them.

Send me an ask about one of my WIPs and get tagged in a snippet for it!