#which is also like john in spnwin

[shallowseeker]

You know what my favorite thing about Sam is? Even though he and Cas butt heads and don't exactly get along, Sam usually takes Cas's side. It's hilarious.

Sam would absolutely stab Cas in the back, and THEN turn around and take his side.

Kind of like [OMITTED]

8x22:

SAM: Dude, go easy on Cas, okay. He's one of the good guys. DEAN: Dude, if anybody else – I mean anybody – pulled that kind of crap, I would stab them in their neck on principle. Why should I give him a free pass? SAM: Because it's Cas.

7x01, fresh off stabbing him in the back BTW:

SAM: Dean, look, I know you think that Cas is gone -- DEAN: It's 'cause he is. SAM: He's not! He's in there somewhere, Dean. I know it. DEAN: No, you don't. SAM: No, I don't. But, look, I was pretty far gone sometimes myself...

///

SAM (praying): Hey, Castiel. Um... Maybe this is pointless. Look... I don't know if any part of you even cares, but, um, I still think you're one of us, deep down. I mean, way, way, way off the reservation, but... Look, we still have till dawn to stop this. Let us help. Please.

On the one hand, it's easier for Sam not to take Cas's betrayal so personally. He saw the betrayal coming, so he wasn't made a fool of. And also, he's not in love with Cas, so that helps him keep the emotional pain at something of a distance. There's not the same kinda tension.

On the other, Sam has a niggling core... a rebellious-coded "child" who remains vulnerable to authority figures for much of his run, (SEE: with how fanboy he was over the angels+ feeling kinda happy having a past-in-common with John Winchester).

Sam loves to see himself IN the father figure, and he loves to make excuses FOR the father figure. It's one of the most delicious things about Sam (and Lucifer, via his own words about "rebellion" in s13).

I think Sam has a tendency to take the father's and the husband's "side," really, even in that one episode with James Marsters 7x05 Shut Up, Dr. Phil.

Which makes me think about how Lucifer is rebellious in terms of behavior, but says he actually always wanted to belong and please his dad:

LUCIFER from 13x13: No. No I always wanted to fit in, please a father I couldn’t please. And now I’m gonna be a father. Probably screw it up like he did.

AND I can't remember of find the episode, but I know Lucifer starts speaking of God differently after he has a son on the way, suddenly cutting him a whole lot of slack. (I think he does this in Exodus, too?)

I love Sam and Lucifer's twin struggles. So crunchy!

[mybrainproblems]

Gay John truther 🤝

anon... anon, who are you? 😭 please come back! 😭 this seems to be such a rarebird headcanon... where art thou, fellow gay john truthers? please interact!

but like fr EYE saw how heartbroken you played john when pastor jim died mr jdm.

[angelsdean]

All these thoughts also prompted me to think abt what John and Mary's fights were often about, especially the fight where John leaves and Dean then comforts Mary. And I think a big part of it was Mary keeping secrets and sneaking around with regard to hunting.

We know she was still hunting in 1980, when she saves Asa Fox. Dean would've been a year old and the hunt is not local, it's up in Canada. Mary says she's been tracking this werewolf for a long time and that they have history. I do think when she says "a long time" she means years and that she hasn't actively been tracking it but it's been something on the back-burner that she's kept an eye on all these years. But that still means she left for a number of days at the very least, and I wonder what she told John. What excuse did she come up with to justify suddenly taking off when they have a baby at home. And no, I don't think she needed to be there as "the mom" to take care of Dean or that she can't spend time away from the home or that fathers are incapable of taking care of their children or anything like that. But I think John would certainly wonder what's taking her away from them so suddenly. What could possibly be so important. And with a hunt like this, I don't think she could've exactly given him a set time-frame for her return.

Now, imagine that happening multiple times. Imagine that happening again when Sam is just a few months old. She says she has to go visit her uncle who's poorly (father of the Campbell cousins. The uncle that paid for her headstone when she died). And then she's gone for longer than she anticipated. And John is just suspicious. And when she comes back they argue about it. "I know you're lying! Just tell me the truth, Mary! What, are you seeing someone else?" And Mary holding firm to her lies because her family cannot know about the supernatural and hunting. Because she doesn't want her kids growing up like she did. Because John is her suburban fairytale. He can't know. And then John snaps. He's pissed. He thinks she's cheating while he's working to provide for the family AND watching the kids in her absence. So he flings a "Is Sam even mine?" at her in his rage and she slaps him and tells him "Don't you dare" and then John storms out in a huff but then calls later to talk about it more and Mary shuts him down. "No, John. … We’re not having this conversation again... Think about what? … You’ve two boys at home. …"

I can imagine a version of this phone call going something like this:

John calls. Maybe apologizes for what he said, but mostly just wants her to be honest with him.

John: Please, Mary, can we just talk about this.

Mary: No, John.

John: I just want you to tell me the truth! What are you hiding? What's going on that you can't tell me?

Mary: We're not having this conversation again.

John: Oh okay, 'we're not having this conversation again.' Well then can you blame me for where my mind is going? What would you think, huh?

Mary: Think about what?

John: You know how it looks, Mary. And I just, I can't keep doing this--

Mary: You have two boys at home. (and ohh the delicious irony of that in the context of her being the one leaving to continue hunting in secret)

John, probably, since the convo seems to continue: Oh that is rich coming from you right now, Mary.

Anyways, this is only one of many many scenarios I can imagine of their fights. And it's perhaps a little too sympathetic to John, but! I enjoy thinking of John complexly, especially considering how Young John is presented in SPN, and also John in the opening scene of the Pilot seems like the easy-going family man, who definitely had underlying issues prior to Mary's death (thank you SPNWIN for confirming that) but clearly those issues got worse after Mary's death, and for the most part he wasn't yet the guy we see him become after he is transformed by grief and anger. Also s12 Mary's rose-tinted recollections of John being such a good father, which starkly contrast to Dean's later memories of John, I think it's not a huge leap to say John pre-Mary's death was a good father, and I think seeing Mary leave them (likely repeatedly) under secretive circumstances for days at a time would have bothered John back then and been a continuous point of contention in their marriage.

And again, this is all simply one angle of interpretation, theorizing, and headcanoning and by no means the only possible scenario.

[wigglebox]

Thoughts on the SPNWIN Finale

Okay so I’m gonna divide this into two parts: Implications for the future of where this show will go, and then implications for a potential continuation. 

**This is me writing after only seeing the episode once and then popping through here and there to try and remember things, but I may mis-remember or misinterpret but I wanna get these first thoughts out of the way!**

First off, just to quickly summarize my thoughts at the top: I really loved it. 

They had a hard hand dealt with this show, which is, only 13 episodes and no promise of a season 2. Because of that, they had to write it in a way that both closed this season but kept the door cracked open for more season. It’s a very very hard balance to do, but I think they still did it. 

To me, I have a lot of questions, but I LIKE having questions because that draws me back for season 2. And, if done properly, it can also lure people into the continuation. 

Implications for the future of SPNWIN

This episode was a whirlwind so I apologize if I mis-remember anything! 

I think the key thing that I took away from this in terms of future potential was the journal. They have Dean’s journal in the sense that Dean and Sam had John’s journal. 

John and Mary take off in the end but I have no doubt in my mind Lata, Carlos, and Ada will all come back and play a part some how as well. 

Which, by the way, the fact that this Carlos was THEE Carlos that was referenced in a Robbie episode a million years ago is so amazing, idk why. Robbie you madman! 

But, now we more or less have the confirmation that this isn’t truly our world, however we are going to be sticking with these characters in the future. Therefore, I don’t know if that means they’ll be universe hopping too, I don’t know if it means they’ll uncover more mysteries from Dean’s journal? I think that’s likely. I also think that will be fun. 

I also ALSO think that will provide more world building for the continuation, like this season already did. 

There is the obvious issue in the room of that being there were only 13 episodes and this may have felt more like a mid-season finale rather than a finale, however not being promised a season 2 has had to have been thee most annoying thing to write around. 

But, for a first season, it set up some solid base foundation work for them to continue to explore more stories while also not screwing around with canon. 

There are still questions I want answered and who knows when or if they’ll ever be answered. The biggest one, however, is what on earth is in that journal?

I have more questions but I need to rewatch the show to form them so they’ll be in a follow up post most likely. 

Another question I have is: Was that really Dean from start to finish? The hair is the biggest thing for me bc J finished filming Big Sky and there was no reason not to cut it, or use a wig of some kind [lol]. But also in general it felt different a little bit. Like it’s still him but also it didn’t feel like him from the pilot and from the photos we were seeing. But it really may well be him all along! I imagine that’s part of the mystery. 

I don’t think we’ll see him again, or if we do, it’s not going to be the same version. I think he served as a launching point. Several friends have made this point already but basically he laid the foundation for all this multi-verse stuff and now the kiddos are on their own and there’s a lottttt to explore. 

Again, I have to rewatch in order to fully form my thoughts on the future for the show. 

My question is gonna be basically are they going to explore different universes? And, how, if Chuck kinda offed all of them? But I’m okay with my questions for now because I like to go with the flow of the show. I don’t want to figure everything out right now. 

Implications for a SPN Continuation

I’ll talk about this first since I have some frens who were disappointed that 1) Cas wasn’t with Jack and Bobby and 2) Cas wasn’t mentioned. 

If you’re new around here, then I’ll cut to the chase now: I am a full on “Cas Is Not In Heaven” believer. There are several reasons why. I am also a “Chuck Won” and “Jack is Chuck” believer. Also several reasons why. 

I don’t believe Cas is in Heaven because they never showed him getting there. “Well Jack got him out of The Empty,” is one of those things that I’ll believe it when I see it, because otherwise, it’s too shady for me. Cas was last taken, alive, to an Empty where everything else was awake and alive and taken on behalf of a deal, not because he died. The Empty has wanted Cas for a while, and has been pissed that he’s gotten out. Cas is a PRIZE for The Empty so I don’t really see it giving up Cas any time soon for any particular reason. 

Especially if that reason is Jack. 

I don’t believe The Empty likes Jack either, especially after their last interaction being so bad (Jack exploding in The Empty, waking everything up). I don’t feel like The Empty is willing to do any favors for him. 

God isn’t supposed to be able to influence The Empty but I think, since Lilith and Lucifer were brought down, that Chuck and The Empty had an arrangement. And from 15x18 to 15x20 I had literally no reason to believe that Cas, a threat to Chuck, would have been let go for any reason, even if Jack was “God” now. 

It would have been sloppy story telling, in my opinon, if they tried to explain how Cas got into Heaven in such a short amount of time, and would have extremely taken away from the emotional magnitude of 15x18. 

And that’s how I felt with 1x13 of The Winchesters. 

If we had seen Cas I would have been upset, I think. Because again, there’s no explanation for him being there. If it wasn’t going to be a *wink wink nudge nudge* thing like “We’ll explain it in the continuation” then I didn’t want it. 

The reason why I feel so passionate about this is beacuse of the Chuck Won theory. And because of that theory, and how Cas’ role evolved over time in Supernatural, I don’t believe Chuck can “recreate” Cas. Because Cas exists outside of Chuck’s narrative, and isn’t beholdened to Chuck, that means Chuck can’t reproduce Cas. It’s just never going to happen. 

And I feel strongly about Chuck not being able to do that SPECIFICALLY because when all is said and done, I don’t EVER want Dean to look at Cas and wonder if he’s real or not (throwback to 15x02 anyone?). 

Therefore, I did not want to see Cas in The Winchesters except for very very very specific ways that I knew deep down wouldn’t happen because this isn’t the show for that. 

And I’m sorry I wish I could go along with the Cas in Heaven memes because they do make me laugh — but also the thought of him being there with no explanation and still not showing up makes me more sad than not. 

And that’s another thing—

With 15x20, and no Cas, there had been conspiracy after conspiracy for the last two and a half years as to why, everywhere between network censorship to Misha secretly filming and then them not showing anything. I’m personally more inclined to believe a mixture of: Censorship (Dean can’t reciprocate so what’s the point) and a deliberate choice on behalf of Dabb. But that’s for a different post because this is already very very long. 

But, him not being in the finale — while it fed into the Chuck Won theory — it also didn’t have enough stability to truly land on one theory or another because COVID restrictions were also blamed (in whatever manner people saw fit to blame it). 

However, NOW — with Cas NOT showing up next to Jack and Bobby — even tho in 15x20 Bobby said that Cas helped Jack — was very LOUD to me. 

So what does that imply, to me?

1) No Cas until they have the time and space to put the story and emotions into it that it deserves. AKA — since I’m a Cas Is In The Empty believer — A rescue, by Dean. Even Jackles at JIB11 said that he’d want to explore that. Both of them have expressed an interest in exploring a follow up to 15x18. They can’t do that in the season finale of a spin off show that hadn’t mentioned them virtually at all (apart from parallels) all season. 

2) No Cas because Cas isn’t there. I’ll get into my “Jack isn’t Jack” thing in a second, but because there was also this choice not to have Cas there — once is a mistake, but twice? Now it’s starting something. Especially since this time, they DID have Jack there. It’s like they’re showing us a Cas-shaped puzzle piece missing. The piece may be missing but you can clearly see the hole and know what’s supposed to be there (kinda like Dean’s reciprocation!).

To me these are interesting storytelling tactics. And that’s what this is, storytelling. 

I feel like maybe we lost the plot a little bit, we being The Fandom, in terms of long-term storytelling efforts. 

Cas being in The Empty still really does open up a TON of plot ideas for a continuation. Is it sad he’s not with Dean right now? Absolutely. But I’d rather have them apart than have a flimsy, unexplained reunion just to have a reunion. 

“They didn’t even mention Cas,” and yeah, maybe they could have, but as friends in Discord servers have pointed out, that also locks them into a story that they may not be able to tell so it’s better to keep it like how it was in 15x20 where Dean never spoke his name. That is, it adds to the uncanny valley of it all. 

Jack isn’t Jack 

Look at this lovely post. This reminds me of the first time I was ever exposed to Chuck Won, Chuck is Jack theory way back in ... I want to say December 2020. Someone had compared Jack’s clothes to Chuck’s, and here we are again. 

Also these tags from @clarkenting​

Jack didn’t feel like Jack. He hasn’t felt like Jack since 15x19. 

I already freak out and ramble a lot about Chuck Won when it comes to Becky’s Notes in 15x04 about “no one even mentions Cas” and the line about rock music and the like. But another note she made was regarding the villain’s monologue at the end and how it kinda sucked. Jack had a monologue at the end. Jenny, in 15x20, said 8 words. 

So Jack post-15x19 has always been suspicious to me! And last night was no different, especially since it’s the most Chuck Like he’s looked. 

Also, another thing that got me, was the reference to Carry On (the Kansas song). It felt super duper pointed and not just an Easter Egg but like — hey this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of 15x20 and how Dean was like, weirdly, “I love this song!” a little too out of character in heaven as he began to drive off. 

Dean’s favorite band isn’t Kansas, it’s Led Zeppelin. 

Also, the reference felt like a fourth wall break, something that Chuck would do. 

So no, I don’t believe that Jack was Jack last night. I’m sure if I go through the dialogue, which I plan to do lol, I’ll find even more reason to believe that. 

Another thing that confused me was Bobby being there. Dean drove off, alone, and was continuously shown alone, throughout his drive. But BOBBY was there last night? Confused I am. But in the good way. 

We know now that Baby can hope planes of existence so I really really hope she can hop into The Empty. 

I’m someone who believes that Dean’s “Heaven” is in reality just The Empty. Or, as sometimes my friends will hear me call it, Chuck’s toy shelf. I am also someone who believes we DID see Chuck in 1x08 as part of the band and it wasn’t just a Rob cameo. Rob’s character has too much implication to just casually toss him in as a background character. 

--

This is super duper long, and I apologize but also not really! 

Some final thoughts (for now) (any follow up posts I make also will be under #spnwin thots):

I think this finale set up things for both a season 2 AND a continuation. I’ve been a contination believer since literally the SPN finale finished airing. At first it was a way to cope, but then it became a full blown belief for me the more and more first Jackles talked about it, and then the rest of the cast. 

I’m really excited for season 2 of The Winchesters should it happen. I really hope it does. I personally believe it has a high chance of migrating to HBO Max for a home — and if that’s the case that’ll be awesome bc I also believe that’s where a continuation will go. 

All of our favorites of the season will be in season 2 as well. We will see Carlos, Lata, Ada, Millie, Betty, Tony, etc. back. There are still questions about their characters too that we need answering. I’m still suspicious of Betty! 

I liked that they contained this just enough for the finale just in case they don’t get a season 2, but still left dangling plot threads to catch for a season 2 (which felt very season 15 of SPN to me. In my eyes, they really did leave some things dangling for a continuation.)

What kind of potential world building will we get now that we know space and time is but an illusion, lol. I like the prequel being used to expand worlds more and expand the canon more, especially when it comes to hopping planes of existence. 

Is The Empty really the big villain, or Chuck? I personally think so, and I personally think that this will help funnel some stuff into a continuation. 

“What about Destiel” yes what about Destiel? That’s a continuation problem but one that I know Jackles and Dee and whoever else will be involved will ultimately tackle as well. I may have more faith and optimism than others, but that’s because I know from past experiences from SPN that I won’t be burned no matter what happens — so if you need me to clown for you, I can! 

What about the Akrida? Do they just stop at this place? Why this particular storyline? What’s going on? We already have alternates to our own timeline that is the Akrida did not finish off our Men of Letters, Baby got into John’s hands via a car dealership (well, according to Chuck anyway), John didn’t know about hunting in our world, etc etc. 

So what else is different? Will they see OUR world? Who is dead, who is alive? Is Chuck gonna send them to other places too?

Only time will tell I guess! 

Time to light those manifestation candles for season 2 and a continuation! 

[curioussubjects]

Ok so I have some spnwin-spn connection spec I wanna share with y'all from back when @alwaysanoriginal were spiraling over some interview about The Winchesters (as we do). The second to last question is about John's journal being created, which of course made me think of plot hole vampmimes. Of course.

Or maybe not so plothole-y?

That was mostly a joke, though I did hope tonight was going to maybe for the lolz address that. Well, little did I know because that old convo continued with this:

DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING YOU WATCHED TONIGHT

DOES IT

Char, then, decided to come for me in the night and point out that the Running on Empty montage in 19 has some pretty choice scenes featuring Changing Channels, Wayward Sisters and the AU rift, Dean time traveling, and The Heroes' Journey (which I always argued was essentially the intended finale metaphorically).

Side note: sorry to expose y'all to my private ravings lol

A lot of this actually comes back to a point Billie made in s15 about Chuck building reality with himself at the center to keep it ticking. So how can you possibly beat him? By letting him think he won. I can't help but remember that delightful line from Dean in s12: "‘Cause we’re not trapped out here with you. You’re trapped out here with us." You know, that one time Dean and Sam pulled a death gambit to escape a black ops site.

But back to The Winchesters: last week we had Carlos refusing to play Loki's game (a god who can affect reality, or one's perception thereof) and winning. But to do so, he had to put his life on the line. He had to be willing to lose everything. By the way, I am once again feeling very emotional about Carlos saying he sacrificed everything for hunting, but he gained so much more because that's it! That's the thing! So yeah...cue Carlos singing Hard Times Come Again No More to his family.

This week John is the one with the seemingly inescapable fate of death (courtesy of vampires because of course), and while he doesn't tap out of the game, he realizes he knows nothing about the context of what he saw. He only got half the story, and the rest was up to him. It's appropriate, too, that this week we get another Supernatural classic with Mary reassuring John that they will find another way. And yeah, John does and wins.

And, I mean, if we're talking fate and god and gambles, why not remember a nifty piece of advice Sam and Dean received from Fortuna in The Gamblers: “Don’t play his game. Make him play yours.”

My point is if we look at 19 and 20 much like we would a vision from an amulet, none of the plot of Supernatural needs to change. It's fated. But as Millie says, and John says, and Dean say: fate is what you make it. And if The Winchesters is about how Sam and Dean became the Winchesters, then what else is this show but the context we've been missing all along.

(send this man to stan jail tbh)

[also what is more Winchester stupid than the cosmic consequences of saving your family...like...say...releasing the Darkness or...causing an Akrida infestation...though who knows that could've been on purpose for reasons. I'm putting nothing past spnwin.]

Don't ask me how Dean goes from pulling a death gambit to get into heaven to time travelling to tweak with his parents' past. We're through the looking glass here people and we'll simply have to wait and see -- but the puzzle is for sure getting less mysterious. Something free will, knowledge, family, and Growth, something. Therapy. You know, The Winchesters.

Or I'm totally off the mark and I'll have egg for face who's to say, but for now, as a treat, I'm feeling very

[spnwin-reader]

SPNwin is Dean asking the question: what if John and Mary could SEE each other, I mean REALLY see each other?

In SPNprime, they didn't just hide from one another. They weren't allowed to really see one another. The machinations of the story and Heaven stepped in to erase it even when the did. The machinations of story also prevented Henry from getting back to John, to reveal to him his past.

John was in the dark for a long time. Here...inSPNwin...

JOHN: Well, you're not exactly who I thought you were.

MARY: Neither are you.

///

This story would be challenged, perhaps BROKEN by the revelation of a Cupid (which represents limerence, not lasting love), and terminate in a challenge to the lovers, asking if they're even real.

The existential crises in the SPNwin narrative might look more like this:

DEAN (15x02): Nothing about our lives is real. Everything that we've lost, everything that we are is because of Chuck. 

They would be horrified and challenged by it, as Dean was in season 15 when he looked at Cas in light of God's newly revealed machinations.

[scoobydoodean]

where would you place spnwin season 1 in a supernatural cinematic universe season ranking? (ik s15 would probably be last)

It's hard for me to even say ngl because to me it does feel very different from spn? Like it feels very distinct from SPN to me until 1.12 and 1.13. It feels more scooby gang than gothic horror + redneck dragon ball Z. Less angst, more fun, which probably should be refreshing... but I guess I like the disease. Like just generally, I'll say I don't find spnwin as compelling as SPN? But it has a great soundtrack, and I did like Carlos and Latika, and this AU John and Mary were also interesting to watch in the same way 4.03 and etc were interesting. The writing was solid (it had to be with the episode constraints involved) and knew what it wanted to say.

I think it's a solid season of TV (besides a little bit of a pacing issue in the Pilot). Like especially for a CW show. But it's probably not very accessible to people who didn't watch SPN, and given the way a good 2/3 of the fandom was immediately against watching it, I'm not at all surprised it didn't get renewed.

The episodes that interested me most were 1.09, 1.12 and 1.13, and it's because 1.09 and 1.12 are obvious criticisms of the SPN finale, and 1.13 gives me back MY Dean instead of whoever that guy in 15.20 was. So like. 100% it is a better season of TV than season 15 to me. But it also kinda feels like comparing apples and oranges to go beyond that, weirdly.

[blanketforcas]

Maybe my expectations were too high in terms of what to expect and maybe it's not fair to compare the two but while I thoroughly enjoyed TW and was happy to finally see diversity it did feel underwhelming to me compared to GK. GK was at times clunky in delivery and in some ways a bit simplistic when it came to social issues (especially class) but I did very much appreciate how the different backgrounds these characters came from influenced how they approached the world and their dynamic with each other which made the characters feel more real and the relationships felt more earned. Whereas with TW, I do think they missed some opportunities (like commenting on the social atmosphere of the time or like adding tension in terms of dynamics- what I mean by this is Carlos a queer POC who was forced to join the military should feel some type of way about John a cishet white guy who joined out of his own volition). Also the golem thing was just a bad and disappointing step backwards but that's another story for another time

okay there's a lot here and all valid points imo! i'll be honest i only watched the first 3 episodes of GK & then some snippets here and there. but i see what you mean and i do feel a similar way about spnwin. some of it is unfortunate some of it they could stand to look at more closely as to not make the same mistakes in the future.

and i do think they received and saw some of that feedback so i hope they do something with it if the show or a spn continuation gets picked up somewhere.

[catsconflictscopicsandchamomile]

My weird ass: “everything the actors have done since can be seen as a unified postcanon. It’s not going especially well, it is Spn after all, but it works strangely well. Anyway, the ‘Gates’ that Ruby warned Sam about are the Gates of Janus, which are a Roman thing. When they’re open, it signifies a state of war. They’re open because Janus is an annoying yet persuasive douche and managed to convince Cas to let him use the vessel for a few minutes, at which point everyone’s least favorite (literal) two-faced war deity split Cas’ true form right in half to power his Gate Thing. Can Cas be saved? I don’t know, but given that ‘A Hellgate, But Specifically For War’ is VERY bad news, those gates do need to close. I don’t know which dogs Ruby was talking about and I’m afraid to find out. Also Sam’s got yet another werewolf gf, and Ruby had his kids back in the 2000s and unironically named them Edward and Stella because “ha ha, blood drinking” I guess, they’re college-age now and both are witches, Blurrywife is some kind of Fae thing and hella evil, might be one of Eileen’s hunts and is just doing this to fuck with her, this blurry bitch ate Sam/imprisoned his soul in some sort of Eternal Cowboy Dreamscape (why tho) but at least she’s currently getting her ass kicked, idk where Dean Jr went and I’m worried abt him. Cas and Meg have a kid, everything is vaguely Celtiberian like that one spnwin ep, Hell is at war with itself, Azazel is wearing John, the Second Coming of Christ is happening but Girljesus is a genuinely great person, the rebar was cursed and Hell used it to control Dean and send him on a time-travel rampage to alter history in their favor. Dean banged one of the Morriganae back in that one ep where he was abducted by The Fae, and she’s still kind of obsessed with him. Jack is possessed and picking fights with Girljesus. Where is Sam’s body? Not with his soul. What’s it doing? Violence. Anyway”

Some so-called Supernatural fans: "The actors have all moved on. There is no need for a 16th season."

Misha Collins: "I found Castiel in my carpet."

[catsconflictscopicsandchamomile]

ok so here's why throwing Fae Lore into spn makes a revival/continuation possible

Here's the setup:

-"Blurrywife" is a Faerie, specifically a malevolent/vampiric one, definitely a Succubus type. The mimes are her human thralls, hence why they don't act like normal vampires.

-Baby, yes the car, is ALSO a Faerie, specifically a kind of shapeshifter called a Pooka. John captured her in the early 80s, and, being John Winchester, never told his kids about this.

-Chuck Won. duh???

-Jack is, and was always destined to be, the next Jack O' The Lantern, and after Chuck threw his flaming corpse out Heaven, he's been ruling his own spoopy little candy-coated afterlife. pumpkin boi

Here's the timeline:

-Blurrywife & Mime Crew are kidnapping kids, likely for The Fae's 7-year tithe of souls to Hell (a thing that exists in the lore), when the Winchesters show up. Sam & Dean, as usual, have NO idea how to identify or fight Fae, and get their asses handed to them, with Dean falling to some weird Gaelic cold-iron magic fuckery (points to Blurrywife & crew for figuring out how to fight with iron despite being unable to touch it. 10/10 fuck these guys tho fr)

-Sam, alone and grieving, is an easy target and she picks him off before he even gets to the car, taking (something close to) Eileen's form and trapping him in a dreamscape, similar to how Djinn attack in spn.

-Sam, Dean AND Baby (there's def some Fae Drama going on there, yikes) have been stuck the Fae Realms for THREE YEARS as of Nov 2023.

-Dean and Baby escaped at some point, staying with Jack for a bit before running off to the 1970s like a dumbass and getting EVERYONE, including Jack and Bobby (why is Bobby even here??? HOW DID BOBBY'S GHOST GET STUCK IN THE FAE REALMS WHAT DID HE *DO*) recaptured.

-Sam has had it much worse, being drained to a white-haired husk of his former self and left for dead within a few days/months. DJ is half-faerie, raised in the fae realms, and could be 3 years old or 50, who knows. I don't like thinking abt how he happened.

-Here's the setup for the continuation:

Dean (fairly intact besides the cursed stab wound in his back) escapes with Sam (nearly dead, white-haired, displaying more or less the typical signs of someone who was taken & drained of life by The Fae) and stumbles into Charlie's safehouse. the Fae Arc can continue from this point, w Baby's true nature being revealed, Blurrywife as a major antagonist/BBEG, DJ going from possible threat -> clearly a well-meaning and very brave kid -> newest Winchester family member who Sam fully accepts as his son (plus s4-cas-esque moments as DJ tries to adapt to living on Earth. DJ ilysm but most cars aren't sentient and you can't bring your longbow to community college)

also Cas is still in The Empty, and Jack & Bobby are still captured, so that's some major plot points right there

Destiel is canon.

...anyway, this is all still pretty convoluted, but it allows for:

-15x20 to have been "not real" without being retconned

-DJ to exist without either setting the continuation ~30 yrs in the future (how would that work), or repeating spnwin's time-travel-kid-ex-machina (that's just not good writing I'm sry)

-spn finally doing something w The Fae (& related lore) besides one-off eps

-human!impala as main character

-explanations of weird shit in the finale (rebar, vamp-mimes, etc)

-collective fandom catharsis at Blurrywife's bitch ass

-the full horror potential of a faceless woman in a long dress standing ominously in the corner while time blurs forward around you and you age to death in five minutes

-some VERY fun metacommentary & crossover easter eggs if you use certain bits of Fae lore

-still works w my other big finale theory/revival idea/if-they-dont-do-this-i-will-be-so-pissed, which is the whole Deanmon 2.0 thing. but that's a post unto itself.

(also yes. making Blurrywife a djinn IS simpler and requires 0 new lore and makes perfect sense in canon. however, I hate how djinn are portrayed in spn. it feels vaguely racist and makes me uncomfy to write/read. so um that's why I didn't do that)

[shallowseeker]

I am still thinking about your pitch for The Winchesters with Henry as the bad guy. If you care.

"I have to go back and kill the cupid. Then everything will be as it should."

[angelsdean]

Dean might been raised to be like john and copied everything that he does (leather jacket, hunting, music, etc) but at his core, sam is much more similar to john and thats the reason they clashed so much.

Theres a difference here - we litteraly spent 15 years watching dean growing up to be the person he needed to be not the person his father wanted him to be.

yea i do think sam's inherent temperament is more like john-- quick to anger, one track mind, centers himself and his emotions over others, deflects blame for his own actions + their consequences.

while dean's inherent temperament is more like mary (incorporating some of spnwin mary's traits into this) --feisty and strong willed but also caring and nurturing (mary was good at bonding w/ kids in spnwin like dean and also i'd say she was a good mom w/ her young children just was distant when she came back due to her own grief and the strangeness of their situation) both are avoidant about somethings, tends to keep things in more, need to internally process (tho i will say and have said, dean CAN and DOES talk abt his feelings. just. not to sam. and sam is just as avoidant, usually deflecting and asking others to talk to him instead of sharing his own feelings)

in the early seasons (and what we can infer about their childhood and teen years based on what they've said) it's very clear that dean played the role of mediator between the two hotheaded ones in the family who where always clashing, sam and john. dean filled the role mary left. he has to be a mother and pseudo partner (i do not mean that sexually obvs) but in the sense of the role of an equal adult figure. john treated dean as his co-parent basically. he gave young dean adult expectations and responsibilities. dean may have fought back and argued sometimes, but after a while he learned it was better to just stay quiet or side with john. because Not taking john's side led to dean being sent away, which left sam vulnerable, and dean's whole purpose that john ingrained in him was to protect and look after sam. he can't do that if he's thrown out of the house as punishment for dissenting, so he falls in line. this obvs from sam's perspective makes it seem like dean and john are a united front against sam, that sam is the outsider. he's not wrong for feeling what he feels, but sam, from his limited perspective, does not see the whole picture. he doesn't learn about john sending dean away as punishment until they are adults. he was unaware of a lot going on around him, the way a lot of kids are unaware of their parents issues when they're young.

anyway, we see dean evolve and change for 15 years, yes! he starts off as the mediator between sam and john. he just wants to keep the peace and unite his family again. for dean up until this point, family is everything. and in s1 family is very limited to literally just the three of them. john never let them form close bonds with other people outside of them. the most they have are bobby and pastor jim, and even then, in s1 they're not very close to either, and have been estranged from bobby for some time. then we see dean break away from that role of mediator when john is out of the picture. he also starts to question a lot of john's choices (not that i don't think he was questioning them before, it's always been a complicated dynamic), but after john tells dean he might have to kill sam, that sends a jolt to his system and he goes, no! No, i'm not going to kill my brother / pseudo-child just cos my father-god says. He gets a bit angry. He starts to actually let himself feel that anger toward john that he's kept at bay for so long, now that john's gone. Then there's hell and 40 yrs of unimaginable trauma. Thirty years of torture and 10 years of torturing. Dean comes back angrier, yes. His anger is a symptom and response to his trauma. hes's never been taught good coping mechanisms and expressing emotions wasn't exactly condoned or safe in john's household, so a lot of dean's pain and grief and shame and remorse for what he did and what he endured gets filtered through anger. Unlike sam, dean never gets a proper arc to confront and deal with his hell trauma. he doesn't have an angel come and take on the brunt of that trauma. he has to bury it all down and keep moving forward to the next conflict, the next big bad, the next apocalypse.

And even still, even after all that, and more years of trauma and loss, dean still holds on to his humanity and love and desire to help people and his goodness. (And i'm not saying sam doesn't have these qualities either. sam, esp early seasons sam, may share more inherent qualities with john but he also has qualities from mary and he also is his own person, who is also good at his core) But yea, dean could've been way worse after everything he endured, and we do see him struggle and stumble, but ultimately he breaks free of a lot of john's teachings and behaviors and he becomes more than just that blunt little instrument.

[keistance]

im sorry but you need to see my bloody valentine again. here's the script from the episode:

DEAN Why does heaven care if Harry meets Sally?

CUPID Oh, mostly they don't. You know, certain bloodlines, certain destinies. Oh, like yours.

SAM What?

CUPID Yeah, the union of John and Mary Winchester--Very big deal upstairs, top priority arrangement. Mm.

DEAN Are you saying that you fixed-up our parents?

CUPID Well, not me, but... Yeah. Well, it wasn't easy, either. Ooh, they couldn't stand each other at first. But when we were done with them--Perfect couple.

DEAN Perfect?

CUPID Yeah.

DEAN They're dead!

CUPID I'm sorry, but... the orders were very clear. You and Sam needed to be born. Your parents were just, uh...meant to be. (sings) A match made in heaven- heaven!

"fixed-up" "they couldn't stand each other at first. but when we were done with them—perfect couple" thats. cupid is literally telling you their cupid magic made them fall in love. they hated each other. the enfasis is always on sam and dean needing to be born (because, as we know, they are chuck's protagonists). it didn't matter how it happened. chuck treated them as mediums for his story and so were meant to be, regardless of what they thought about it. what other interpretation is there? it's pretty straightforward. dean literally punches him right afterwards bc he's also understood that everything their parents had was fake, created by the magic of a cupid on heaven's orders. it doesn't endear him to heaven, but that's neither here nor there.

sure the cupid's not involved, but its made clear the story is well-known upstairs between cupid circles. how could it not? it's the love story that will end everything. the cupid tells the story like it's hot gossip and he's itching to telling somebody about it. he describes first when cupid's are involved, explaining also in a roundabout way how their magic works. if john and mary loved each other and didn't need magic to preserve their destinies, then what's the point of employing a cupid? you can't say it's standard for every important bloodline. if they hated each other at first, it means heaven gave them some time to get over with it naturally. would they have turn that hatred around and loved each other if given more time? i guess we'll never know, considering spnwin is in an alternative universe (in which rowena is looking for her son early so we already know people don't have to be like their spn counterparts)

of course that everything else showed they loved each other deeply tho had some rough patches. there's 3 narrators in this: john's stories (through the brothers), mary's stories, and what we get to see through time travel. time travel is always after the cupid so the love is fake. mary's too. john's too yeah but his have something the others don't and that is nostalgia born out of missing his wife for 20+ odd years and setting on a mad quest for revenge. even if the magic faded (tho there's nothing about that either way) his tales aren't going to be the most accurate. not to mention, mary herself tells us she pretended to be a lot of things we know john loved to reminisce about (according to diary most of them but they get summed up in the show as: the perfect mother, the perfect wife). so not only would they be artificially created feelings, their relationship would have another layer of fakeness.

as i doubt cupid's magic can rewrite your personality (and nothing in canon says it does), it's no wonder they had rough patches. if they hated each other before it, there's going to be habits or attitudes that they didn't like about the other that fake love won't be able to blur.

just because the show mentioned it the one time and doesn't address it again doesn't make it less real. i truly cannot see what other interpretation there is for that conversation and dean's punch thereafter.

i think jensen ackles forgot john and mary actually hates each other and their love was fake

[drsilverfish]

What’s with all the claws? The Winchesters

There are a lot of talons and claws and tentacles and spines in The Winchesters monster-parade so far (episodes 1-6)

Is that just because monsters are generally claws-and-teethy or is there a symbolic function to all these claws in the narrative?

In the pilot we see the long talons of what? An Akrida, the Akrida leader, a Wicked Witch of the West-esque entity?

In SPNWin 1x01 Pilot we meet a Loup-garou with its very long werewolfy talons:

Image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Loup-Garou 

It was placed as a guard by the Men of Letters over the mysterious, trans-dimensional box which can entrap demons, and, apparently, the alien Akrida.

In SPNWin 1x02 Teach Your Children Well, La Tunda has tentacle-vine talons which seek to suck the life-force from her victims:

She is an abusive parent feeding on the life-force of rebellious children, and her lair is other-dimensional (like the Akrida’s, who come from another world).

Second image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/File:LaTundaVines.png 

In SPNWin 1x03 You’re Lost Little Girl, the Bori Baba emerges, talons first, from its portal-sack into a child’s bedroom:

It also seems to feed particularly on children and young people (judging from the number of stuffed toys in its lair) and its sack is a portal to another alternate realm/ dimension.

SPNWin 1x04 Masters of War has the God Mars-Neto as the monster, so no physically manifest talons there. But the theme of an alternate reality is present, as Mars Neto creates an illusionary return to Vietnam, within which he traps John and Carlos, forcing them to relive and re-experience the traumatic effects of the war.

In SPNWIn 1x05 Legend of a Mind we learn that the Akrida have stingers which they inject into some people’s brains in order to control them:

This appears symbolic of the hold childhood trauma has on the mind (a claw/ spine/ talon/ tentacle of poison, hooked into the self) given that we explore Mary’s childhood trauma at the hands of her hunter parents (with the help of Ada’s Djinn son as a healing mind-guide) after she is brain-injected with an Akrida stinger herself.

And in SPNWin 1x06 Art of Dying Darla is found dead in a barn, mutilated by claw marks, and Carlos finds a claw embedded in the ceiling. The team initially think a werewolf is responsible (this theme of misrecognition of monsters is a recurring one; Mary thought that the monster in 1x03 Teach the Children Well was a shapeshifter). Another taloned creature is responsible, a Soucouyant:

All of which makes me think of the expression, “to get your claws into someone”, meaning to gain a controlling hold over them.  

Psychologically speaking, The Winchesters is exploring the way trauma, in particular the trauma parents visit on their children, gets its claws into the psyche. The claws, talons and tentacles of the monsters symbolise the dark hold that such abuse has on the mind.  

In terms of the recurring themes of alternate dimensions and misrecognition, that may be symbolic of the larger frame of the narrative (which, as I’ve explored in earlier 1x06 meta) might suggest that the entirety of The Winchesters is actually taking place in Dean’s mind, in a liminal state between dying and rebirth, where he works through the main themes of his life; parent-imposed trauma being fundamental.   

[wigglebox]

okay gonna type this out b4 the meds kick in and i’m pulled down into the emotional sadness of 1x04 for spnwin 

but like, i know i was like ‘omg fucking....john/carlos???’ last night but also with mary/latika lmao but like for real

i already started seeing some ‘but i don’t want the homophobic man to be queer’ 

and i just wanna say something? there’s no canonical evidence that john was homophobic. that can be your headcanon, your take on his character, whatever, but in terms of the actual TV show there’s no canonical proof that he was. i know someone’s going to mention that journal thing but that’s so quasi-canon to me and not really viewed at as actual canon, and also it has contradicting canon in itself from the show so i don’t count that.

so when you see things like ‘john winchester is homophobic’ just understand that it’s a reading and not fact. 

second of all, the reason why i love 1x04 so much is that we are seeing the ramifications of 

1) the culture of the time of young men, and in john’s case way too young, going into something as horrific as the Vietnam War was [on all sides] and witnessing [and in some cases participating in particularly] horrifying things 

2) this mindset of kinda toxic masculinity in the sense that men, and especially in this time frame, are expected to suck it up. his raised voice at carlos regarding therapy sessions reminded me of that, but also we have to keep in mind that john was on edge the entire episode and clearly quick to anger. but again, it’s 1972, and john’s a young adult, white male, in the midwest, veteran. i can see how he’s resistant to talking to people about his problems, especially if he just feels no better doing so [a common misconception that just one session of therapy and you’ll start to feel better], therefore it’s easy to associate therapy with feeling like shit and then avoiding it all together. 

and you combine john’s mental health issues, bc clearly he has PTSD [*note, not everyone with PTSD is angry, violent, or volitile. but SOME are. and clearly john is one of them, likely backed up by other issues throughout his childhood with the father issue] — with this queer...well i was going to say coding but that look he gave carlos and some other implications in this episode feels a little stronger than that lol — then you get an interesting situation. 

i think it’s important for us to not forget the nuance that SPN often undertook, and that the team at the helm of this show also aren’t unfamiliar with. this was literally the strongest episode so far, and i know usually episodes get stronger as seasons go on, but this was particularly strong. 

because — the nuance here is that not all queer people are good, kind, nice, whatever. queer people can be abusers, queer people can have anger issues, queer people can shun treatment for issues [with understandable reasons] and leave things to fester — 

queer people sometimes don’t come out the otherside of things in a good way. 

and i think it’s also important to have characters like that. 

*NOW please understand i’m not saying to revert back to Hollywood in the... idk 40s 50s and 60s? even 70s i guess. but there was really a run in movies where queer people were the predators the villains the — blahblahblah. essentially demonizing us in film. and then when Hollywood got tired of doing that to us, they’d just punish us and never give our characters a happy ending. 

But, much like with many things in storytelling, it honestly depends on the story and imo, the time period in which you’re telling it. 

Like i already said, the team at the helm of this show already know and understand’s SPN nuance and coding abilities. 

so to me, having a young adult, white male, who witnessed a horrifying tragedy [one of many he probably experienced but this one in particular], who doesn’t feel like he can get help, doesn’t trust the process, in the early 70s, who is about to be thrown into the ringer [he’s actually in it already] with cosmic forces, who’s literally facing down a violent god in this episode — who perhaps may be queer. 

this isn’t a show demonizing someone being queer and also being a neglectful and manipulative and emotionally, physically abusive father — it’s just the fact that sometimes, queer people can in fact be neglectful, manipulative, and emotionally/physically abusive parents in the future. 

and since it’s fiction we got cosmic forces mixed into the salad plot bowl as well.

honestly i’m really happy that they already showed that john’s issues do not just happen upon him when mary dies. that he’s always had this simmering anger. 

anger is a secondary emotion brought on by frustration, confusion, annoyance, fear, and all of that fun stuff. 

the winchesters isn’t going to be a lighthearted happy comedy. we know where john winds up. 

making him a more dynamic character in spn canon is fascinating, and since we already know where the ride is going to end up, no problem in encouraging that dynamic character building [while also wondering ‘what if’ a lot of the time like myself lol] 

[diminuel]

It’s time for a lunch break and since SPNWIN is now uploaded, I’m going to write down my thoughts! Spoilers and some thoughts about fanfic, under the cut.

I still feel Dean sounds slightly different, like he lived in a different place for a while and picked up the hints of an accent. But I might be totally off. It’s normal that people sound differently when they’re talking and when they’re narrating something, especially something that was written down. It might just be that.

John’s already on his way to being an “obsessive bastard” (Dean’s words) while Lata and Carlos are trying to show him ways to work through the underlying issue of his aggressive behaviour. I think he does have the capacity to break out of it, at least he talks to Mary about it and he asks Lata for help. But things – the hunt – get in the way. So I suppose, like with Dean and Sam who are prone to anger and obsession, there’s always something that keeps him from figuring out a better path.

A statue of Michael in Mary’s parents’ office? It’s pretty conspicuous, as it doesn’t seem to fit the rest of the Campbell interior decorating style. Two times so far (that I’ve been aware of) we’ve seen Michael. Hm hm.

“Hunt’s over. You get to rest.” Did get me a bit. ;w; It does fit itself into the idea that the only rest a hunter gets is when the hunt is over – and for many hunters it’s not over until they get killed. Tracy tried to get out -for the wrong reasons – and has to go back. Mary wants out but if this follows SPN’s flashback episodes, then she’s going to get out because her family is dead and she had to make a deal to get John back. It’s tragic how we see Mary’s hope being set upon getting out (finishing school, going to college) and knowing what the future holds in store for her.

Though I did find it interesting that her plans for the future are school and college, whereas flashback Mary in SPN seemed to be focused on marrying and having a family. These things are of course not mutually exclusive but one could read the angelic meddling into it. Because angels don’t care whether she gets an education, they care about getting her settled with John so that she can give birth to Dean and Sam.

By the way, the presence of certain phrases we’ve heard before (in SPN) raises my alarm bells X’D Cute parallels or warning signs??

Both Lata and Carlos were of course also great. I hope Carlos gets out, buys Tracy’s farm and plants a lot of weed. :P

One last comment: I kept thinking about S12 Mary. How when she left the boys, she went to look for her old contacts and friends, who were mostly dead. Which then led me to think about a fic in which she does find Lata and Carlos. Which then made me wonder about whether we are going to be seeing SPNWIN elements in regular fanfic? I haven’t had time to read fics in a while so I can’t say! But I’ve been thinking about writing an AU set in the 90s and maybe it would make sense for Lata and Carlos to be around as family friends? So there’s not just uncle Bobby and aunt Ellen, but also uncle Carlos (though not sure he would enjoy being called uncle) and aunt Lata?