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angelsdean · 4 months

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All these thoughts also prompted me to think abt what John and Mary's fights were often about, especially the fight where John leaves and Dean then comforts Mary. And I think a big part of it was Mary keeping secrets and sneaking around with regard to hunting.

We know she was still hunting in 1980, when she saves Asa Fox. Dean would've been a year old and the hunt is not local, it's up in Canada. Mary says she's been tracking this werewolf for a long time and that they have history. I do think when she says "a long time" she means years and that she hasn't actively been tracking it but it's been something on the back-burner that she's kept an eye on all these years. But that still means she left for a number of days at the very least, and I wonder what she told John. What excuse did she come up with to justify suddenly taking off when they have a baby at home. And no, I don't think she needed to be there as "the mom" to take care of Dean or that she can't spend time away from the home or that fathers are incapable of taking care of their children or anything like that. But I think John would certainly wonder what's taking her away from them so suddenly. What could possibly be so important. And with a hunt like this, I don't think she could've exactly given him a set time-frame for her return.

Now, imagine that happening multiple times. Imagine that happening again when Sam is just a few months old. She says she has to go visit her uncle who's poorly (father of the Campbell cousins. The uncle that paid for her headstone when she died). And then she's gone for longer than she anticipated. And John is just suspicious. And when she comes back they argue about it. "I know you're lying! Just tell me the truth, Mary! What, are you seeing someone else?" And Mary holding firm to her lies because her family cannot know about the supernatural and hunting. Because she doesn't want her kids growing up like she did. Because John is her suburban fairytale. He can't know. And then John snaps. He's pissed. He thinks she's cheating while he's working to provide for the family AND watching the kids in her absence. So he flings a "Is Sam even mine?" at her in his rage and she slaps him and tells him "Don't you dare" and then John storms out in a huff but then calls later to talk about it more and Mary shuts him down. "No, John. … We’re not having this conversation again... Think about what? … You’ve two boys at home. …"

I can imagine a version of this phone call going something like this:

John calls. Maybe apologizes for what he said, but mostly just wants her to be honest with him.

John: Please, Mary, can we just talk about this.

Mary: No, John.

John: I just want you to tell me the truth! What are you hiding? What's going on that you can't tell me?

Mary: We're not having this conversation again.

John: Oh okay, 'we're not having this conversation again.' Well then can you blame me for where my mind is going? What would you think, huh?

Mary: Think about what?

John: You know how it looks, Mary. And I just, I can't keep doing this--

Mary: You have two boys at home. (and ohh the delicious irony of that in the context of her being the one leaving to continue hunting in secret)

John, probably, since the convo seems to continue: Oh that is rich coming from you right now, Mary.

Anyways, this is only one of many many scenarios I can imagine of their fights. And it's perhaps a little too sympathetic to John, but! I enjoy thinking of John complexly, especially considering how Young John is presented in SPN, and also John in the opening scene of the Pilot seems like the easy-going family man, who definitely had underlying issues prior to Mary's death (thank you SPNWIN for confirming that) but clearly those issues got worse after Mary's death, and for the most part he wasn't yet the guy we see him become after he is transformed by grief and anger. Also s12 Mary's rose-tinted recollections of John being such a good father, which starkly contrast to Dean's later memories of John, I think it's not a huge leap to say John pre-Mary's death was a good father, and I think seeing Mary leave them (likely repeatedly) under secretive circumstances for days at a time would have bothered John back then and been a continuous point of contention in their marriage.

And again, this is all simply one angle of interpretation, theorizing, and headcanoning and by no means the only possible scenario.

#john and mary #john studies #mary studies #mymeta #vic.txt

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doctorprofessorsong · 4 months

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Hello! I recently watched The Winchesters and had a question, which I figured you could answer/discuss?

I'm aware that the show takes place in an Alt Universe, and that Spn's John never fell into the hunting life earlier, so he never knew Carlos personally. But still, it's still him — and he is not homophobic towards Carlos who is canonically bi. It can be argued that he just does not know, like he did not know about Carlos serving the Navy, but then what about Anton? We know Lata knows, of course. But has it been explicitly stated that Mary & John know too? And it's not like Carlos hides himself; he's open about his interests and that's amazing, but John is never portrayed as a Hater, no? Not in this sense in the show.

But we, as a fandom, have concluded that John is the reason for Dean's suppression of his own feelings — in general, and about being into men — but then... Carlos.

Did Dean assume his father would never approve? Because he never does of anything that has to do with feelings; it's always hunting and more hunting and revenge, of course. Is that what happened, rather than John actually being homophobic, he was a colossal failure of a parent who "just" pushed away his son(s) emotionally to a level where potential abuse and discouragement were more realistic than anything else? Does this also mean that when Dean does come out to John he would be supportive, at least, of this?

It's just been bugging me, is all.

Hoo boy. Throwing me an easy one before coffee, huh? :)

As a fun aside, there is a scene where a Carlos is mentioned in the mothership. It's not established to be the same Carlos in SPNwin, but the SPN episode was written by Robbie and he has acknowledged they are in his mind.

That doesn't get us to an answer, but it's nice to know that Dean and Sam possibly knew a version of Carlos.

Leading with the short answer to the actual question: what you have described regarding canon is a lot of assumptions and headcanons, which are fine and can absolutely be read as "John was just different in the different universes,' but I personally find that to be the boring answer. I think this fandom tends to write John as the evil bad dad, when a complex gray John is far meatier, so I'm often inclined to go deeper.

The answer I feel works better is the possibly unpopular opinion that we don't actually know John is homophobic at all and it's very possible Dean’s relationship with his father, while fraught with expectations in any number of ways, may not actually be driving his choice to live in the closet and/or his delayed realization of his sexual orientation. It's extremely possible John isn't homophobic at all. Dean may have read him that way or he may have felt pressure from external sources. These days my preferred reading tends to actually be something else entirely: that Dean knows he is queer and simply doesn't reveal it because he is of an era and a world where queerness is often not open and obvious to outsiders.

This is gonna be a long haul so I'm gonna pop in a courtesy cut and jump in. Don't worry. There WILL be headings and bullet points. Regret asking me yet? 😆

Is John homophobic?

Canon support

There isn't a ton of canon support for the homophobic John reading. That's not saying it isn't a valid reading. It's just that it's an interpretation and not fact. Here are the things I have seen or remember:

Martin and Tara - taking these together because they are a similar pattern. Both tell Dean his dad would be disappointed in him for running around with this male shaped monster (boyfriend). The textual reading is that John wouldn't want him running around with monsters. There is a subtexual reading that John wouldn't want him to have a boyfriend which is super valid. It just doesn't tell us much about John because 1. We know he was very black and white on monsters, 2. neither of these characters knows John that well. Tara got ghosted by him. It's possible this is a reflection of the larger hunter community (though possibly not even that). The point is it's canon evidence that can be taken either way.

Lee? A lot of people write that scene as John finding in them in a compromising position and I get it because Christian Kane and Jensen Ackles looked like they were about to sneak off to the bathroom, but the actual story is "You remember that time he caught us wasted on a Hunt? Hm? He was so mad, I-I thought he was gonna have an aneurysm." We know that John is really hard on Dean and Sam specifically because he chooses preparation for monsters over all (including their mental health) so this is absolutely consistent with his character regardless of any romance between them.

The nuns - this is not technically canon, but there is a story about John sending Dean on a solo hunt on his birthday to chase after queer nuns. First and foremost, I am noting this is sketchy from a canon/non-canon evidence perspective. It is something written and endorsed by SPN in the same way as the cartoon and the upcoming graphic novel. It's not fan fiction, but I would say it's not truly canon canon. But taking the evidence for what it is, it's interesting to note that in the journal John doesn't actually say anything homophobic. He describes the hunt as "Simple salt-and-burn mission. Nuns in love with each other, then discovered. Killed themselves." There's no commentary. No slurs. They were "in love." The real meat of the homophobia here is that he sent is queer son alone on his birthday to deal with them and it could be read as a message. That doesn't mean it's intended to be one.

That's all I can think of. It's not a lot and it's not definitive. It's perfectly valid to read it as support for homophobic John AND I think there may be some writer intent in the same way that monsters are often an allegory in the show and in media for queerness.

But it's also not a smoking gun. It's more of a unloaded gun with bullets next to it. So why do people think John is this super homophobic person?

Non-canon support and factors

There's a lot that goes into the interpretation of John that lies outside of the text.

His age and upbringing - He was raised in a time and place where acceptance of queer people wasn't exactly the default and then he went into the military which is also not exactly known for being particularly great for queer acceptance.

Classism - I say this gently to the fandom, but there is this idea that people who aren't in urban areas, and especially in poor rural areas must be homophobic. This comes up a lot in the Sam went to Stanford and is educated and therefore is a better ally headcanon. It's worth considering whether that is a factor here.

He raised his kids with military precision when he was around - there is no doubt that John was a hard man who treated his children like soldiers. A lot of people group gender and sexual orientation, especially when it comes to the gender aspects of masculinity where "be a man" and "be tougher" is frequently aimed at queer men. There's a lot of masculinity reinforcement for sure in the text and subtext of the show.

He's a bad dad and we're a bunch of traumatized queers with daddy issues. I know because I'm not only the owner, I'm a member.

I'm simplifying some of this, but there are a lot of factors that contribute to this reading and they are real and valid reasons. They just aren't textual and in some cases they are absolutely based in stereotypes. That's fine! Stereotypes aren't always incorrect. But they can be and it's worth wondering whether or not they are true.

There are plenty of people like John who are either not homophobic, or of the nature of it's fine if I don't see it variety of homophobia (which would actually be fairly logical to read into given the time and place of Dean's upbringing and the risk being openly queer presented especially for John who's priority is physical safety and preparation).

Personally, I find the lack of text to be fairly compelling, especially when we look at Dean's other behaviors, but that is my interpretation. I personally think John would have a problem with a monster boyfriend because of the monster bit, but doesn't give a fuck about the boyfriend bit except to the extent it may draw danger. I don't actually think John fits the rural strict father homophobic stereotype very well. He's not particularly religious. He doesn't seem to care what his kids do as long as they are safe and in the family business. He doesn't quiz Dean about where he was or who he was with.

I grew up in the South and have known a lot of homophobic parents in my day (including my own! See above). The pattern is often a parent who wants their kid to meet a certain social standard. Don't be gay because it will reflect bad on the family and you will go to hell. John shows negative interest in that arena.

He shows some of the don't be gay because it isn't manly aspects of that type of parent, but I also think a lot of people conflate masculinity with sexual orientation in this analysis. I say this specifically nodding to the Krikpe quote about umbrellas which in no way mentions being gay, but does mention being tough hunters not scared of demons. The text of that tweet and the story the fandom tells are two very distinct things.

It's very possible that those aspects of John's personality are part of why Dean performs tough het male so hard and that would be an aspect of what you are describing. I will also say however that Dean cries a lot. He's very open with his emotions and with caring for people. He's very good with people. Hes always been openly a caretaker. So he isn't performing masculinity so hard that those pieces of him are erased or hidden.

Why is Dean Like That if it isn't the daddy issues?

Let's look at this as if John wasn't openly and particularly notably homophobic. That is to say he had the casual homophobia of the 80s and 90s combined with a friend group of hypermasculine beer and bourbon drinking dudes with guns, but he wasn't, say, abusing Dean if he caught sight of potential gayness. Just to analyze the other question which is Dean's suppression of his feelings or denial of his queerness.

The fandom is not a monolith and I think there are lots of fans with lots of differing analysis in this arena, so I just want to again reiterate, this is all interpretation and headcanon! It's fine to fall anywhere in this spectrum.

Dean is Like That because he assumes he knows how his Dad would react

It's possible John talked about this idea that he has to get to an apple pie life long enough and made assumptions about the gender of his future partner, or that he was so neglectful or abusive, or that he made enough comments about being a "man" because he was worried about Dean being a victim, that Dean assumed his father would not support him. It's possible the canon events above where never intended to send a message to Dean that he still believed and read into them. That's not a criticism. We all interpret the things that happen to us. We are the ones who put meaning to an event, and that meaning may not match with the other person's intent. It doesn't make it invalid.

As you say, it may be a failure of parenting.

Dean is Like That because he grew up in the 80s and 90s

As someone who was born between Dean and Sam, I can say with the authority of experience that the 80s and 90s were a rough time to be queer. Like a really rough time. There were a lot of cultural things happening. Not to mention Dean had a rough upbringing.

HIV/AIDS - There are greater and more knowledgeable sources than me about this topic, but growing up during this time I can say that people were absolutely fucking awful about HIV/AIDS. We had school assemblies full of misinformation. Scores of people were dying and being told they deserved it. A lot of queer kids were internalizing the idea that queerness was a death sentence. I cannot actually come up with a good comparison in modern day. It was absolutely awful for the community, and the messages being delivered to kids was: "if you choose to be gay, you will die."

Casual homophobia - Remember when Misha used the f-word and people lost their fucking minds even though he was talking about lived experiences for most of us of a certain age? Yeah, that outrage was unimaginable to me as a kid. The idea that people would ever get to a point where the use of the word in a non-slur posture would even register. Slurs were thrown around all the time. People and things were "gay" and that was bad. Dean spent time being thrown from school to school and it would have been a massively important for him to come in performing cool masculine untouchable guy who enjoys women.

Dean lives in a transient space - He's constantly alone and in charge in places where someone might take advantage of him or Sammy. Being noticed and assumed weak is dangerous.

Counterpoint: Dean's upbringing may support more comfort rather than less with queerness, but it encouraged secrecy

To fully contradict myself, Dean was in transient spaces. That means he would have been interacting with more queer people than the average suburban or rural teen. He's in truck stops and no-tell motels. That boy met queer people. But he met people who were living in the shadows. This isn't unusual for that era. Queerness to dean was cruising and truck stops and one night stands in seedy motels. Something to be done but not to be seen.

Dean's reaction to queer people in canon supports this reading. He's never disgusted, but he's often surprised specifically about open and public displays of queerness. He tends to react to openly queer people with surprise and longing, but specifically most of his oh right there are queer people faces are reactions to open displays of queerness.

Even HIV/AIDS may have hit different in the hunting community. Dean didn't expect to live to an old age. I say this mainly because the lack of blood squick.

Consider a reading that he knows

We have so many lovely coded moments of queer Dean. The bathroom he disappears into. The way he gets clocked and doesn't deny it at times. Any denials he makes can be read to be situations where he doesn't know what the other person will react like.

I think it's very possible he isn't repressed at all! He just uses the closet as a shield or he doesn't share that information with people unless he wants to/trusts them/feels it's relevant to them.

PS DM me if you want to chat more and also I may have a discord of interest.

#the winchesters #spnwin #supernatural #john winchester #dean winchester #john winchester & dean winchester #daddy issues #cw homophobia #cw mention of HIV/AIDS

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wigglebox · 2 years

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Thoughts on the SPNWIN Finale

Okay so I’m gonna divide this into two parts: Implications for the future of where this show will go, and then implications for a potential continuation.

**This is me writing after only seeing the episode once and then popping through here and there to try and remember things, but I may mis-remember or misinterpret but I wanna get these first thoughts out of the way!**

First off, just to quickly summarize my thoughts at the top: I really loved it.

They had a hard hand dealt with this show, which is, only 13 episodes and no promise of a season 2. Because of that, they had to write it in a way that both closed this season but kept the door cracked open for more season. It’s a very very hard balance to do, but I think they still did it.

To me, I have a lot of questions, but I LIKE having questions because that draws me back for season 2. And, if done properly, it can also lure people into the continuation.

Implications for the future of SPNWIN

This episode was a whirlwind so I apologize if I mis-remember anything!

I think the key thing that I took away from this in terms of future potential was the journal. They have Dean’s journal in the sense that Dean and Sam had John’s journal.

John and Mary take off in the end but I have no doubt in my mind Lata, Carlos, and Ada will all come back and play a part some how as well.

Which, by the way, the fact that this Carlos was THEE Carlos that was referenced in a Robbie episode a million years ago is so amazing, idk why. Robbie you madman!

But, now we more or less have the confirmation that this isn’t truly our world, however we are going to be sticking with these characters in the future. Therefore, I don’t know if that means they’ll be universe hopping too, I don’t know if it means they’ll uncover more mysteries from Dean’s journal? I think that’s likely. I also think that will be fun.

I also ALSO think that will provide more world building for the continuation, like this season already did.

There is the obvious issue in the room of that being there were only 13 episodes and this may have felt more like a mid-season finale rather than a finale, however not being promised a season 2 has had to have been thee most annoying thing to write around.

But, for a first season, it set up some solid base foundation work for them to continue to explore more stories while also not screwing around with canon.

There are still questions I want answered and who knows when or if they’ll ever be answered. The biggest one, however, is what on earth is in that journal?

I have more questions but I need to rewatch the show to form them so they’ll be in a follow up post most likely.

Another question I have is: Was that really Dean from start to finish? The hair is the biggest thing for me bc J finished filming Big Sky and there was no reason not to cut it, or use a wig of some kind [lol]. But also in general it felt different a little bit. Like it’s still him but also it didn’t feel like him from the pilot and from the photos we were seeing. But it really may well be him all along! I imagine that’s part of the mystery.

I don’t think we’ll see him again, or if we do, it’s not going to be the same version. I think he served as a launching point. Several friends have made this point already but basically he laid the foundation for all this multi-verse stuff and now the kiddos are on their own and there’s a lottttt to explore.

Again, I have to rewatch in order to fully form my thoughts on the future for the show.

My question is gonna be basically are they going to explore different universes? And, how, if Chuck kinda offed all of them? But I’m okay with my questions for now because I like to go with the flow of the show. I don’t want to figure everything out right now.

Implications for a SPN Continuation

I’ll talk about this first since I have some frens who were disappointed that 1) Cas wasn’t with Jack and Bobby and 2) Cas wasn’t mentioned.

If you’re new around here, then I’ll cut to the chase now: I am a full on “Cas Is Not In Heaven” believer. There are several reasons why. I am also a “Chuck Won” and “Jack is Chuck” believer. Also several reasons why.

I don’t believe Cas is in Heaven because they never showed him getting there. “Well Jack got him out of The Empty,” is one of those things that I’ll believe it when I see it, because otherwise, it’s too shady for me. Cas was last taken, alive, to an Empty where everything else was awake and alive and taken on behalf of a deal, not because he died. The Empty has wanted Cas for a while, and has been pissed that he’s gotten out. Cas is a PRIZE for The Empty so I don’t really see it giving up Cas any time soon for any particular reason.

Especially if that reason is Jack.

I don’t believe The Empty likes Jack either, especially after their last interaction being so bad (Jack exploding in The Empty, waking everything up). I don’t feel like The Empty is willing to do any favors for him.

God isn’t supposed to be able to influence The Empty but I think, since Lilith and Lucifer were brought down, that Chuck and The Empty had an arrangement. And from 15x18 to 15x20 I had literally no reason to believe that Cas, a threat to Chuck, would have been let go for any reason, even if Jack was “God” now.

It would have been sloppy story telling, in my opinon, if they tried to explain how Cas got into Heaven in such a short amount of time, and would have extremely taken away from the emotional magnitude of 15x18.

And that’s how I felt with 1x13 of The Winchesters.

If we had seen Cas I would have been upset, I think. Because again, there’s no explanation for him being there. If it wasn’t going to be a *wink wink nudge nudge* thing like “We’ll explain it in the continuation” then I didn’t want it.

The reason why I feel so passionate about this is beacuse of the Chuck Won theory. And because of that theory, and how Cas’ role evolved over time in Supernatural, I don’t believe Chuck can “recreate” Cas. Because Cas exists outside of Chuck’s narrative, and isn’t beholdened to Chuck, that means Chuck can’t reproduce Cas. It’s just never going to happen.

And I feel strongly about Chuck not being able to do that SPECIFICALLY because when all is said and done, I don’t EVER want Dean to look at Cas and wonder if he’s real or not (throwback to 15x02 anyone?).

Therefore, I did not want to see Cas in The Winchesters except for very very very specific ways that I knew deep down wouldn’t happen because this isn’t the show for that.

And I’m sorry I wish I could go along with the Cas in Heaven memes because they do make me laugh — but also the thought of him being there with no explanation and still not showing up makes me more sad than not.

And that’s another thing—

With 15x20, and no Cas, there had been conspiracy after conspiracy for the last two and a half years as to why, everywhere between network censorship to Misha secretly filming and then them not showing anything. I’m personally more inclined to believe a mixture of: Censorship (Dean can’t reciprocate so what’s the point) and a deliberate choice on behalf of Dabb. But that’s for a different post because this is already very very long.

But, him not being in the finale — while it fed into the Chuck Won theory — it also didn’t have enough stability to truly land on one theory or another because COVID restrictions were also blamed (in whatever manner people saw fit to blame it).

However, NOW — with Cas NOT showing up next to Jack and Bobby — even tho in 15x20 Bobby said that Cas helped Jack — was very LOUD to me.

So what does that imply, to me?

1) No Cas until they have the time and space to put the story and emotions into it that it deserves. AKA — since I’m a Cas Is In The Empty believer — A rescue, by Dean. Even Jackles at JIB11 said that he’d want to explore that. Both of them have expressed an interest in exploring a follow up to 15x18. They can’t do that in the season finale of a spin off show that hadn’t mentioned them virtually at all (apart from parallels) all season.

2) No Cas because Cas isn’t there. I’ll get into my “Jack isn’t Jack” thing in a second, but because there was also this choice not to have Cas there — once is a mistake, but twice? Now it’s starting something. Especially since this time, they DID have Jack there. It’s like they’re showing us a Cas-shaped puzzle piece missing. The piece may be missing but you can clearly see the hole and know what’s supposed to be there (kinda like Dean’s reciprocation!).

To me these are interesting storytelling tactics. And that’s what this is, storytelling.

I feel like maybe we lost the plot a little bit, we being The Fandom, in terms of long-term storytelling efforts.

Cas being in The Empty still really does open up a TON of plot ideas for a continuation. Is it sad he’s not with Dean right now? Absolutely. But I’d rather have them apart than have a flimsy, unexplained reunion just to have a reunion.

“They didn’t even mention Cas,” and yeah, maybe they could have, but as friends in Discord servers have pointed out, that also locks them into a story that they may not be able to tell so it’s better to keep it like how it was in 15x20 where Dean never spoke his name. That is, it adds to the uncanny valley of it all.

Jack isn’t Jack

Look at this lovely post. This reminds me of the first time I was ever exposed to Chuck Won, Chuck is Jack theory way back in ... I want to say December 2020. Someone had compared Jack’s clothes to Chuck’s, and here we are again.

Also these tags from @clarkenting

Jack didn’t feel like Jack. He hasn’t felt like Jack since 15x19.

I already freak out and ramble a lot about Chuck Won when it comes to Becky’s Notes in 15x04 about “no one even mentions Cas” and the line about rock music and the like. But another note she made was regarding the villain’s monologue at the end and how it kinda sucked. Jack had a monologue at the end. Jenny, in 15x20, said 8 words.

So Jack post-15x19 has always been suspicious to me! And last night was no different, especially since it’s the most Chuck Like he’s looked.

Also, another thing that got me, was the reference to Carry On (the Kansas song). It felt super duper pointed and not just an Easter Egg but like — hey this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of 15x20 and how Dean was like, weirdly, “I love this song!” a little too out of character in heaven as he began to drive off.

Dean’s favorite band isn’t Kansas, it’s Led Zeppelin.

Also, the reference felt like a fourth wall break, something that Chuck would do.

So no, I don’t believe that Jack was Jack last night. I’m sure if I go through the dialogue, which I plan to do lol, I’ll find even more reason to believe that.

Another thing that confused me was Bobby being there. Dean drove off, alone, and was continuously shown alone, throughout his drive. But BOBBY was there last night? Confused I am. But in the good way.

We know now that Baby can hope planes of existence so I really really hope she can hop into The Empty.

I’m someone who believes that Dean’s “Heaven” is in reality just The Empty. Or, as sometimes my friends will hear me call it, Chuck’s toy shelf. I am also someone who believes we DID see Chuck in 1x08 as part of the band and it wasn’t just a Rob cameo. Rob’s character has too much implication to just casually toss him in as a background character.

This is super duper long, and I apologize but also not really!

Some final thoughts (for now) (any follow up posts I make also will be under #spnwin thots):

I think this finale set up things for both a season 2 AND a continuation. I’ve been a contination believer since literally the SPN finale finished airing. At first it was a way to cope, but then it became a full blown belief for me the more and more first Jackles talked about it, and then the rest of the cast.

I’m really excited for season 2 of The Winchesters should it happen. I really hope it does. I personally believe it has a high chance of migrating to HBO Max for a home — and if that’s the case that’ll be awesome bc I also believe that’s where a continuation will go.

All of our favorites of the season will be in season 2 as well. We will see Carlos, Lata, Ada, Millie, Betty, Tony, etc. back. There are still questions about their characters too that we need answering. I’m still suspicious of Betty!

I liked that they contained this just enough for the finale just in case they don’t get a season 2, but still left dangling plot threads to catch for a season 2 (which felt very season 15 of SPN to me. In my eyes, they really did leave some things dangling for a continuation.)

What kind of potential world building will we get now that we know space and time is but an illusion, lol. I like the prequel being used to expand worlds more and expand the canon more, especially when it comes to hopping planes of existence.

Is The Empty really the big villain, or Chuck? I personally think so, and I personally think that this will help funnel some stuff into a continuation.

“What about Destiel” yes what about Destiel? That’s a continuation problem but one that I know Jackles and Dee and whoever else will be involved will ultimately tackle as well. I may have more faith and optimism than others, but that’s because I know from past experiences from SPN that I won’t be burned no matter what happens — so if you need me to clown for you, I can!

What about the Akrida? Do they just stop at this place? Why this particular storyline? What’s going on? We already have alternates to our own timeline that is the Akrida did not finish off our Men of Letters, Baby got into John’s hands via a car dealership (well, according to Chuck anyway), John didn’t know about hunting in our world, etc etc.

So what else is different? Will they see OUR world? Who is dead, who is alive? Is Chuck gonna send them to other places too?

Only time will tell I guess!

Time to light those manifestation candles for season 2 and a continuation!

#long post #very long post i'm so so SO. fucking sorry #spn #spnwin #spnwin spoilers #spnwin thots #spnwin finale #i wrote this all in a frenzy and before i could grab starbucks #and i'm running on 3 hours of sleep #so i apologize if i missed anything #again anything additional i wanna talk about will be under spnwin thots #walejaflwkejfw #time to go on areblog spree

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shallowrambles · 9 months

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ANNEMARIE: Yeah. I thought so, too. Seeing you take on Matt, I was like, “wow”" no one's ever done that for me before. But then you kept going and going, and I realized whatever is going on with you has nothing to do with my “honor” at all.

(10x01)

The name means, "favored grace, rebellious lover." Annemarie is a window into Dean wanting to (yet again) run away from everything, from Sam, from Crowley, from work. From his chronic feelings of rejection. From feeling things, from living in the real world with obligations and responsibilities.

Annemarie calls Dean on beating the person who was wronging her (Matt), a la how Dean called Cas out re:taking on Raphael. Because, like Godstiel, Demon Dean kept going beyond defending honor, beyond protectorship.

Demon Dean is a treatise to the loss of free will through disinhibition, yes, but it's also Dean acting out everything that was ever done to him. There's pent-up rage and rejection tied up with all of it.

It's the specter of "I did all of it for you!" which only sounds romantic, only sounds honorable...but Cas kept going, slaughtered the angels en masse. Because it was really about Cas's beef with his brother Raphael and his family and his issues. Just like in SPNWIN Mary called out John on using Mary as an excuse for her issues.

Anyhoo, we stan Annemarie. She is "human Dean."

She walked out of there thinking she deserved that.

#annemarie #demon dean stuff #dean is very soft of her despite everything that's happened to him #john cas parallels #complex john #complex cas #complex dean #It's no wonder he beats Cas in a similar manner to how Cas beat him.#like claire dean finds an outlet in becoming a drunken unthinking errand boy #gets tied up as an exploited prostituted soldier and will not be kowtowed #anyhoo we stan annemarie #demon dean into others as was done to him

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drsilverfish · 2 years

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What’s with all the claws? The Winchesters

There are a lot of talons and claws and tentacles and spines in The Winchesters monster-parade so far (episodes 1-6)

Is that just because monsters are generally claws-and-teethy or is there a symbolic function to all these claws in the narrative?

In the pilot we see the long talons of what? An Akrida, the Akrida leader, a Wicked Witch of the West-esque entity?

In SPNWin 1x01 Pilot we meet a Loup-garou with its very long werewolfy talons:

Image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Loup-Garou

It was placed as a guard by the Men of Letters over the mysterious, trans-dimensional box which can entrap demons, and, apparently, the alien Akrida.

In SPNWin 1x02 Teach Your Children Well, La Tunda has tentacle-vine talons which seek to suck the life-force from her victims:

She is an abusive parent feeding on the life-force of rebellious children, and her lair is other-dimensional (like the Akrida’s, who come from another world).

Second image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/File:LaTundaVines.png

In SPNWin 1x03 You’re Lost Little Girl, the Bori Baba emerges, talons first, from its portal-sack into a child’s bedroom:

It also seems to feed particularly on children and young people (judging from the number of stuffed toys in its lair) and its sack is a portal to another alternate realm/ dimension.

SPNWin 1x04 Masters of War has the God Mars-Neto as the monster, so no physically manifest talons there. But the theme of an alternate reality is present, as Mars Neto creates an illusionary return to Vietnam, within which he traps John and Carlos, forcing them to relive and re-experience the traumatic effects of the war.

In SPNWIn 1x05 Legend of a Mind we learn that the Akrida have stingers which they inject into some people’s brains in order to control them:

This appears symbolic of the hold childhood trauma has on the mind (a claw/ spine/ talon/ tentacle of poison, hooked into the self) given that we explore Mary’s childhood trauma at the hands of her hunter parents (with the help of Ada’s Djinn son as a healing mind-guide) after she is brain-injected with an Akrida stinger herself.

And in SPNWin 1x06 Art of Dying Darla is found dead in a barn, mutilated by claw marks, and Carlos finds a claw embedded in the ceiling. The team initially think a werewolf is responsible (this theme of misrecognition of monsters is a recurring one; Mary thought that the monster in 1x03 Teach the Children Well was a shapeshifter). Another taloned creature is responsible, a Soucouyant:

All of which makes me think of the expression, “to get your claws into someone”, meaning to gain a controlling hold over them.

Psychologically speaking, The Winchesters is exploring the way trauma, in particular the trauma parents visit on their children, gets its claws into the psyche. The claws, talons and tentacles of the monsters symbolise the dark hold that such abuse has on the mind.

In terms of the recurring themes of alternate dimensions and misrecognition, that may be symbolic of the larger frame of the narrative (which, as I’ve explored in earlier 1x06 meta) might suggest that the entirety of The Winchesters is actually taking place in Dean’s mind, in a liminal state between dying and rebirth, where he works through the main themes of his life; parent-imposed trauma being fundamental.

#Supernatural #The Winchesters #The Winchesters meta #Holy Ghost Dean Winchester #Winchester Family Dynamics #Parental abuse #Dean Winchester in the Bardo #SPNWin 1x06 #Art of Dying

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curioussubjects · 2 years

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Ok so I have some spnwin-spn connection spec I wanna share with y'all from back when @alwaysanoriginal were spiraling over some interview about The Winchesters (as we do). The second to last question is about John's journal being created, which of course made me think of plot hole vampmimes. Of course.

Or maybe not so plothole-y?

That was mostly a joke, though I did hope tonight was going to maybe for the lolz address that. Well, little did I know because that old convo continued with this:

DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING YOU WATCHED TONIGHT

DOES IT

Char, then, decided to come for me in the night and point out that the Running on Empty montage in 19 has some pretty choice scenes featuring Changing Channels, Wayward Sisters and the AU rift, Dean time traveling, and The Heroes' Journey (which I always argued was essentially the intended finale metaphorically).

Side note: sorry to expose y'all to my private ravings lol

A lot of this actually comes back to a point Billie made in s15 about Chuck building reality with himself at the center to keep it ticking. So how can you possibly beat him? By letting him think he won. I can't help but remember that delightful line from Dean in s12: "‘Cause we’re not trapped out here with you. You’re trapped out here with us." You know, that one time Dean and Sam pulled a death gambit to escape a black ops site.

But back to The Winchesters: last week we had Carlos refusing to play Loki's game (a god who can affect reality, or one's perception thereof) and winning. But to do so, he had to put his life on the line. He had to be willing to lose everything. By the way, I am once again feeling very emotional about Carlos saying he sacrificed everything for hunting, but he gained so much more because that's it! That's the thing! So yeah...cue Carlos singing Hard Times Come Again No More to his family.

This week John is the one with the seemingly inescapable fate of death (courtesy of vampires because of course), and while he doesn't tap out of the game, he realizes he knows nothing about the context of what he saw. He only got half the story, and the rest was up to him. It's appropriate, too, that this week we get another Supernatural classic with Mary reassuring John that they will find another way. And yeah, John does and wins.

And, I mean, if we're talking fate and god and gambles, why not remember a nifty piece of advice Sam and Dean received from Fortuna in The Gamblers: “Don’t play his game. Make him play yours.”

My point is if we look at 19 and 20 much like we would a vision from an amulet, none of the plot of Supernatural needs to change. It's fated. But as Millie says, and John says, and Dean say: fate is what you make it. And if The Winchesters is about how Sam and Dean became the Winchesters, then what else is this show but the context we've been missing all along.

(send this man to stan jail tbh)

[also what is more Winchester stupid than the cosmic consequences of saving your family...like...say...releasing the Darkness or...causing an Akrida infestation...though who knows that could've been on purpose for reasons. I'm putting nothing past spnwin.]

Don't ask me how Dean goes from pulling a death gambit to get into heaven to time travelling to tweak with his parents' past. We're through the looking glass here people and we'll simply have to wait and see -- but the puzzle is for sure getting less mysterious. Something free will, knowledge, family, and Growth, something. Therapy. You know, The Winchesters.

Or I'm totally off the mark and I'll have egg for face who's to say, but for now, as a treat, I'm feeling very

#yes that's an apollo gift of prophecy joke that only 10 people will get what of it lolsobs #the winchesters #supernatural #spnwin #spn #the winchesters spoilers #spnwin spec #spn meta #my writing #remember how we've been joking about the finale being absurdist theater #WELL DO I HAVE BIG IF TRUE NEWS FOR YOU LMAO #please think about that godawful barn speech as a french mistake attempt at acting #if there's a lock there must be a key style #it's FICTION! A COMPLETE FABRICATION!#but it's also true because it happened we lost we sacrificed everything #but we gained so much more #chuck won #...but then he didnt!!!!

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diminuel · 2 years

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It’s time for a lunch break and since SPNWIN is now uploaded, I’m going to write down my thoughts! Spoilers and some thoughts about fanfic, under the cut.

I still feel Dean sounds slightly different, like he lived in a different place for a while and picked up the hints of an accent. But I might be totally off. It’s normal that people sound differently when they’re talking and when they’re narrating something, especially something that was written down. It might just be that.

John’s already on his way to being an “obsessive bastard” (Dean’s words) while Lata and Carlos are trying to show him ways to work through the underlying issue of his aggressive behaviour. I think he does have the capacity to break out of it, at least he talks to Mary about it and he asks Lata for help. But things – the hunt – get in the way. So I suppose, like with Dean and Sam who are prone to anger and obsession, there’s always something that keeps him from figuring out a better path.

A statue of Michael in Mary’s parents’ office? It’s pretty conspicuous, as it doesn’t seem to fit the rest of the Campbell interior decorating style. Two times so far (that I’ve been aware of) we’ve seen Michael. Hm hm.

“Hunt’s over. You get to rest.” Did get me a bit. ;w; It does fit itself into the idea that the only rest a hunter gets is when the hunt is over – and for many hunters it’s not over until they get killed. Tracy tried to get out -for the wrong reasons – and has to go back. Mary wants out but if this follows SPN’s flashback episodes, then she’s going to get out because her family is dead and she had to make a deal to get John back. It’s tragic how we see Mary’s hope being set upon getting out (finishing school, going to college) and knowing what the future holds in store for her.

Though I did find it interesting that her plans for the future are school and college, whereas flashback Mary in SPN seemed to be focused on marrying and having a family. These things are of course not mutually exclusive but one could read the angelic meddling into it. Because angels don’t care whether she gets an education, they care about getting her settled with John so that she can give birth to Dean and Sam.

By the way, the presence of certain phrases we’ve heard before (in SPN) raises my alarm bells X’D Cute parallels or warning signs??

Both Lata and Carlos were of course also great. I hope Carlos gets out, buys Tracy’s farm and plants a lot of weed. :P

One last comment: I kept thinking about S12 Mary. How when she left the boys, she went to look for her old contacts and friends, who were mostly dead. Which then led me to think about a fic in which she does find Lata and Carlos. Which then made me wonder about whether we are going to be seeing SPNWIN elements in regular fanfic? I haven’t had time to read fics in a while so I can’t say! But I’ve been thinking about writing an AU set in the 90s and maybe it would make sense for Lata and Carlos to be around as family friends? So there’s not just uncle Bobby and aunt Ellen, but also uncle Carlos (though not sure he would enjoy being called uncle) and aunt Lata?

#Effi stuff #Supernatural #The Winchesters #spnwin #spnwin spoilers #spoilers

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scoobydoodean · 1 year

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where would you place spnwin season 1 in a supernatural cinematic universe season ranking? (ik s15 would probably be last)

It's hard for me to even say ngl because to me it does feel very different from spn? Like it feels very distinct from SPN to me until 1.12 and 1.13. It feels more scooby gang than gothic horror + redneck dragon ball Z. Less angst, more fun, which probably should be refreshing... but I guess I like the disease. Like just generally, I'll say I don't find spnwin as compelling as SPN? But it has a great soundtrack, and I did like Carlos and Latika, and this AU John and Mary were also interesting to watch in the same way 4.03 and etc were interesting. The writing was solid (it had to be with the episode constraints involved) and knew what it wanted to say.

I think it's a solid season of TV (besides a little bit of a pacing issue in the Pilot). Like especially for a CW show. But it's probably not very accessible to people who didn't watch SPN, and given the way a good 2/3 of the fandom was immediately against watching it, I'm not at all surprised it didn't get renewed.

The episodes that interested me most were 1.09, 1.12 and 1.13, and it's because 1.09 and 1.12 are obvious criticisms of the SPN finale, and 1.13 gives me back MY Dean instead of whoever that guy in 15.20 was. So like. 100% it is a better season of TV than season 15 to me. But it also kinda feels like comparing apples and oranges to go beyond that, weirdly.

#spnwin #mail

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queerbluebird · 2 years

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Some spnwin season finale musings for my own benefit

The spnwin season 1 finale was actually the opposite of the spn 15.20 finale in every way I needed it to be. The more I think on it, the more I love about it, and that is such a relief and a pleasant change when I’ve spent actual years hating 15.20 more every time I think about it.

All through watching The Winchesters I’ve had my reservations. Despite any and all positive signs, there’s always been the looming knowledge that 1) SPN had positive signs and they all got smacked down and ground into the dirt right at the very last minute and 2) we know where John and Mary end up. Spnwin 1.13 has eased those reservations so thoroughly that I finally feel able to be excited about it; to rewatch it and let myself be fully invested in the characters and the story.

Some key thoughts…

Firstly, these are not the John and Mary we know. They are not bound to the story we have seen so far. Their choices matter! The family they’re building with Lata and Carlos and Ada and Millie matters! The ways they work to improve themselves and each other matter! Their future is wide open, and now they have the tools from Dean to make sure it stays that way. This is truly the healing SPN was building to; pulling together all the lessons Dean spent 15 seasons of SPN learning and having the opportunity to direct that new knowledge towards the future.

Secondly, at long fucking last we get acknowledgement that Dean’s ending was NOT a happy one. Literally out of his own mouth right on our screen we got to hear him say that he went searching for a world where his family could find happiness. Which he wouldn’t have had to do if he had been happy! Dean’s ending as of 15.20 was misery and tragedy and waste and it feels good to have that 1) acknowledged and 2) undone just a little bit, because Dean is in “the heaven he deserves” but he’s not satisfied! He’s still helping people and still causing problems for The Powers That Be! Good for him!

Thirdly, (and Robbie Thompson I owe u big for this one) this is a finale that actually knows what a free will finale looks like!! Literally you cannot say “they have free will” and then slapdash skim over any possibility of making choices to go “they all died and ended up in heaven and it was great because heaven is great!” That’s not free will! Whereas this whole season was a love letter to free will! “These are the things we learn along the way, and these are the ways that knowledge affects our choices.” And 1.13 rounded it off with such a perfect balance of “we’re wrapping up loose ends, but keeping it open ended. The characters could go anywhere from here! It’s in their hands!” It’s beautiful. This is the “driving down an open road into the future” that Team Free Will deserved and brings me hope all around.

Also there was Zepp! Amazing!

This was a great finale to The Winchesters season 1 in and of itself. And I think it also went such a long way to soften the blow of SPN 15.20 by re-opening doors SPN tried to slam shut. Dean does have agency in heaven, he has retained lessons he learned along the way (he is looking for family and it’s not John and Mary who live down the road in heaven!).

I’m excited to rewatch the entire season now, and I’m excited that I get to feel that rewatch excitement when for so long spn 15.20 has ruined my ability to rewatch spn. Having The Winchesters season 1 gives me hope that someday we’ll get a story that brings back the joy of rewatching spn itself. The love felt for this show by the people creating it really brings me hope. And regardless of any of that, I’ll always have SPNWin season 1 now, and I appreciate that.

#The Winchesters #spnwin #meta #spnwin s1 spoilers #spnwin 1.13 #the winchesters 1x13 #hopefully that's enough spoiler tags #Also I'll say it #I'm glad Cas wasn't there #There was no way for him to be a part of this that wouldn’t have felt rushed and hollow #when he and Dean have this huge unaddressed emotional weight hanging over them.#If we get to see Cas again (and I deeply hope we do) we deserve for his and Dean’s reunion to be the central focus #and not some quick sidebar.#oh yeah and #spn finale critical

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shallowseeker · 1 year

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Related to Sam's high-pressure therapy in The Big Empty, I got to thinking about The Winchesters.

In The Winchesters, the therapy that is hoisted on John in 1x04 Masters of War feels very public, coerced, and wordy. John is kind of bullied(?) into sharing his thoughts and scoffed at(?) when he's prickly and defensive about his traumatic experiences. For starters, he shouldn't have to share his very real personal experiences just for a case...

Then, Carlos swoops in and performs the therapy Perfectly (TM), with pretty words so poetic and practiced you'd think they'd been plucked from a professional memoir. It felt cartoonish to me then, and it feels cartoonish to me now.

No wonder John has a breakdown.

That was a horrific therapy experience for him. He almost seemed shamed for his negative feelings and inability to speak in group therapy. (Compare this to the Dr. Sexy guy's no-pressure, "you don't have to speak," group approach in SPN prime's Gimme Shelter.)

This scenario in SPNwin, though? It maybe made John worse, or at the very least inflamed the problem. Then he "overkills" the war god, speaking not to an inner evil but to a disorganized state brought on by a near-repeat of what happened to Murphy happening to Carlos.

John is driven by fear here, not innate violence. At least, not a violence any less innate than that which resides in all of us... (Recall when Claire couldn't calm down when she was kicking her would-be rapist in SPN Prime, season 10. Put in a knife in her hand? She'd have rage-fear-stabbed the guy, mark my words.)

Anyway, the whole thing feels...so much like Sam's pressured therapy in The Big Empty to me? Clearly, that was not the right format or the right therapist for John, but at the end, he is maybe-shamed(?) for not doing therapy Right (TM) in or the Right Way (TM), despite saving Carlos's life.

It's okay that this therapy was a good fit for Carlos's bubbly social butterfly self, but it's also okay that it was a bad fit for John's more private personality.

Then, maybe it feels like John's breakdown in the bathtub is framed as a personal failing. I'm not sure. On the one hand, it does feel sympathetic. On the other, it feels so, so disingenuous at times. I can't put my finger on it, but I do know that many instances in SPNwin re:therapy and pacifism rub me the wrong way for similar reasons as they do in The Big Empty.

This is a work in progress. I haven't quite wrapped my brain around how I feel about it all yet, but it definitely feels as complicated to me now as it felt to me then.

Note to add: I do view overkill as a psychological warning sign, by the way. It's as legitimate for Carlos to recognize in John as it was for Mary to recognize in Jack re:overkilling Nick in SPN prime. It was also an important thing for Sam to recognize in MoC!Dean. It's less about morals and more about it being a red flag. Overkilling is a psychological signature.

Nevertheless! The therapy was a bit eh for me.

#spnwin #trying to put this into words #spnwin + therapy

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blanketforcas · 1 year

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Maybe my expectations were too high in terms of what to expect and maybe it's not fair to compare the two but while I thoroughly enjoyed TW and was happy to finally see diversity it did feel underwhelming to me compared to GK. GK was at times clunky in delivery and in some ways a bit simplistic when it came to social issues (especially class) but I did very much appreciate how the different backgrounds these characters came from influenced how they approached the world and their dynamic with each other which made the characters feel more real and the relationships felt more earned. Whereas with TW, I do think they missed some opportunities (like commenting on the social atmosphere of the time or like adding tension in terms of dynamics- what I mean by this is Carlos a queer POC who was forced to join the military should feel some type of way about John a cishet white guy who joined out of his own volition). Also the golem thing was just a bad and disappointing step backwards but that's another story for another time

okay there's a lot here and all valid points imo! i'll be honest i only watched the first 3 episodes of GK & then some snippets here and there. but i see what you mean and i do feel a similar way about spnwin. some of it is unfortunate some of it they could stand to look at more closely as to not make the same mistakes in the future.

and i do think they received and saw some of that feedback so i hope they do something with it if the show or a spn continuation gets picked up somewhere.

#i'll be honest if TW wasn't tied to spn i prob wouldn't have watched it #not to say it's a bad show cause it wasn't #there's a lot of potential and i enjoyed it enough #and i'm so glad they tied up the ending the way it did (even if i am a bit bitter about no cas mention - i still think there was a way to d #it without writing themselves into a corner there but i also get they were being extra extra careful)

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angelsdean · 1 year

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Dean might been raised to be like john and copied everything that he does (leather jacket, hunting, music, etc) but at his core, sam is much more similar to john and thats the reason they clashed so much.

Theres a difference here - we litteraly spent 15 years watching dean growing up to be the person he needed to be not the person his father wanted him to be.

yea i do think sam's inherent temperament is more like john-- quick to anger, one track mind, centers himself and his emotions over others, deflects blame for his own actions + their consequences.

while dean's inherent temperament is more like mary (incorporating some of spnwin mary's traits into this) --feisty and strong willed but also caring and nurturing (mary was good at bonding w/ kids in spnwin like dean and also i'd say she was a good mom w/ her young children just was distant when she came back due to her own grief and the strangeness of their situation) both are avoidant about somethings, tends to keep things in more, need to internally process (tho i will say and have said, dean CAN and DOES talk abt his feelings. just. not to sam. and sam is just as avoidant, usually deflecting and asking others to talk to him instead of sharing his own feelings)

in the early seasons (and what we can infer about their childhood and teen years based on what they've said) it's very clear that dean played the role of mediator between the two hotheaded ones in the family who where always clashing, sam and john. dean filled the role mary left. he has to be a mother and pseudo partner (i do not mean that sexually obvs) but in the sense of the role of an equal adult figure. john treated dean as his co-parent basically. he gave young dean adult expectations and responsibilities. dean may have fought back and argued sometimes, but after a while he learned it was better to just stay quiet or side with john. because Not taking john's side led to dean being sent away, which left sam vulnerable, and dean's whole purpose that john ingrained in him was to protect and look after sam. he can't do that if he's thrown out of the house as punishment for dissenting, so he falls in line. this obvs from sam's perspective makes it seem like dean and john are a united front against sam, that sam is the outsider. he's not wrong for feeling what he feels, but sam, from his limited perspective, does not see the whole picture. he doesn't learn about john sending dean away as punishment until they are adults. he was unaware of a lot going on around him, the way a lot of kids are unaware of their parents issues when they're young.

anyway, we see dean evolve and change for 15 years, yes! he starts off as the mediator between sam and john. he just wants to keep the peace and unite his family again. for dean up until this point, family is everything. and in s1 family is very limited to literally just the three of them. john never let them form close bonds with other people outside of them. the most they have are bobby and pastor jim, and even then, in s1 they're not very close to either, and have been estranged from bobby for some time. then we see dean break away from that role of mediator when john is out of the picture. he also starts to question a lot of john's choices (not that i don't think he was questioning them before, it's always been a complicated dynamic), but after john tells dean he might have to kill sam, that sends a jolt to his system and he goes, no! No, i'm not going to kill my brother / pseudo-child just cos my father-god says. He gets a bit angry. He starts to actually let himself feel that anger toward john that he's kept at bay for so long, now that john's gone. Then there's hell and 40 yrs of unimaginable trauma. Thirty years of torture and 10 years of torturing. Dean comes back angrier, yes. His anger is a symptom and response to his trauma. hes's never been taught good coping mechanisms and expressing emotions wasn't exactly condoned or safe in john's household, so a lot of dean's pain and grief and shame and remorse for what he did and what he endured gets filtered through anger. Unlike sam, dean never gets a proper arc to confront and deal with his hell trauma. he doesn't have an angel come and take on the brunt of that trauma. he has to bury it all down and keep moving forward to the next conflict, the next big bad, the next apocalypse.

And even still, even after all that, and more years of trauma and loss, dean still holds on to his humanity and love and desire to help people and his goodness. (And i'm not saying sam doesn't have these qualities either. sam, esp early seasons sam, may share more inherent qualities with john but he also has qualities from mary and he also is his own person, who is also good at his core) But yea, dean could've been way worse after everything he endured, and we do see him struggle and stumble, but ultimately he breaks free of a lot of john's teachings and behaviors and he becomes more than just that blunt little instrument.

#long post #sorry im in my essays era #dean studies #sam studies #family dynamics #replies

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mittensmorgul · 2 years

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the only thing worse than how it starts is how it ends

thanks carlos, having watched all of spn i'm pretty sure you're right about that lololololol

199 notes - Posted October 11, 2022

Hi! What aspects of what we know about the prequel draw you to watch it? I am looking for a silver line in it that would motivate me to watch it because, as of now, I am very wary of the prequel. John and Mary as lead characters along with the final of SPN (heaven ending and they promised canon compliance) is not making me excited. This is not to rain on your parade, I am just looking for a better perspective! Robbie is a bonus but I'm a Casgirl and the prospect of Cas being in it seems dicey :(

Hi hi! I'm happy to help if I can, but I only know as much as any of us still, so I don't know how accurate some of this will be as we begin getting more information. But this is what I know:

-This will be set in the early 1970's. We'll learn more about Mary and her family, which honestly I've wanted to learn more about since 4.03, you know? She was raised hunting and was desperate to get out and live normal, but was clearly a competent and knowledgeable hunter. I would LOVE to know more about her and her family.

-we know it will incorporate the "love story" of John and Mary, and that as you pointed out, it will be canon compliant

-which means they will have to at least acknowledge what the cupid in 5.14 said about how difficult a match the two of them were to make... I am FASCINATED by what Heaven's involvement in their lives was before the events of 4.03.

-this was also the era during which John was in the Marine Corps. He fought in Vietnam. I'm super curious about whether he was protected in some way by having this "destiny" to father the fated vessels, and how that may have influenced his life in general.

-we might get more information about the state of Heaven/angels and Hell/demons prior to the beginning of the run up to the apocalypse. will there be shady stuff revealed about the goings-on there, or are they going to stick more to the mundane/normal hunter life of John and Mary? We just don't know, but this is something that I hope they do choose to explore a little bit.

-I don't know that this will have anything to do with the ending of the original Supernatural series. Unless it's stated up front that Dean is narrating this entire thing *from Heaven,* then I don't know how it would have any bearing on this series.

-I don't know that Cas *won't* ever be a character in this series, but it's not something I'm counting on, you know? He existed in that universe at the time the events will be taking place, but as far as we know outside of taking Dean back to 1973 to "stop it" in 4.03, he wasn't really involved in that era of events on Earth. Of course, he was able to time travel when he had his wings, but also he could've taken another vessel back at that time and interfered with things based on Heaven's orders (and if they were dead set on Cas looking like our Cas, they could present his vessel as Jimmy's father/Uncle/other ancestor and still use Misha as the actor... not saying that WILL happen, but that it COULD, but also i'm going into this not really expecting to see Cas at all, so any Cas we do see would feel like a bonus).

-Robbie Thompson. He's a treasure. He *cares* about canon. He knows the characters, and I trust his writing. He is NOT a John apologist (just the opposite, he has written some scathing critiques of Sam and Dean's childhood... I mean his FIRST episode of the series was Slash Fiction. Please look at his episode list and get a feel for how he sees canon...). And this time, rather than being a staff writer, he's running the show. That alone makes me eager to watch.

-Chaos Machine. A production company run by #1 Dean Stan Jensen Ackles, and #1 Cas Girl Danneel Ackles. But also a company whose first big hire was Renee Reiff, one of the founders of Out In Hollywood, and now the head of development. I'm...really not sure that any of these people are gonna side with folks that loved the series finale and thought it was perfect and a good ending for the characters... how people have gotten that impression from any of this, I just don't know. But I do not think this series is gonna be more of THAT.

-Based on the timing of everything, Jensen likely was in negotiations with WB for the rights to produce programming under the Supernatural banner before the original series was even done filming. We know he was Not A Fan of the ending, and that he has spoken diplomatically and carefully about it for the most part, but his discomfort with the ending is pretty clear. Not many people start a whole entire production company with a long game of eventually making a follow up to the original series.

-in the mean time, Jensen and Danneel are setting out to prove the SPN universe is in good hands. Because there ARE other stories in that universe I would love to hear. Not only Mary's story (because I am REALLY interested in seeing how she grew up and how Dean as narrator relates to that experience), but there are other stories in that universe that would be worth hearing too. The chances of them being able to TELL us those stories likely rest on the success of the Winchesters-- yes, even the potential for them EVER to be able to make an actual 15.20 redux, or a continuation of the original series at all, likely rests on the success of their first venture.

This is a thoughtful, creative bunch of people who WANT DESPERATELY to tell us more stories in the Supernatural Universe.

There are people who obviously will not care to watch, which is fine and good, but literally we do not know any more than what I stated above, and some of that is even speculation and guessing. I'm just exhausted by people who already believe they know what this show will be about and have decided to pre-hate it for their convenience.

Some parts of this fandom are just so fucking exhausting.

Will we love it? WHO KNOWS?! IT IS A MYSTERY! We don't even know who will be cast as Mary and John-- or anyone else in the series! We just do not know what the story is yet! Can we at least wait until then to decide to love or hate it?!

I'd love to at least give Jensen, Danneel, and Robbie the benefit of the doubt here...

227 notes - Posted February 5, 2022

“bikini area”

(source)

243 notes - Posted February 7, 2022

8.17 Call Sheet and Sides now up on the @spnscripthunt

What broke the connection? Dean forgives him and loves him, and Naomi forced him to choose. He chose Dean.

277 notes - Posted February 17, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

love that millie’s rule was telling henry “i love you” after they have a disagreement, or anything

and that’s her big regret, not getting to tell Henry “i love you” before he disappeared

everyone, please shriek loudly with me

374 notes - Posted October 18, 2022

Get your Tumblr 2022 Year in Review →

#tumblr2022 #year in review #my 2022 tumblr year in review #your tumblr year in review #it was a smol year on mittesmorgul dot tunglr :'D

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wigglebox · 2 years

Text

okay gonna type this out b4 the meds kick in and i’m pulled down into the emotional sadness of 1x04 for spnwin

but like, i know i was like ‘omg fucking....john/carlos???’ last night but also with mary/latika lmao but like for real

i already started seeing some ‘but i don’t want the homophobic man to be queer’

and i just wanna say something? there’s no canonical evidence that john was homophobic. that can be your headcanon, your take on his character, whatever, but in terms of the actual TV show there’s no canonical proof that he was. i know someone’s going to mention that journal thing but that’s so quasi-canon to me and not really viewed at as actual canon, and also it has contradicting canon in itself from the show so i don’t count that.

so when you see things like ‘john winchester is homophobic’ just understand that it’s a reading and not fact.

second of all, the reason why i love 1x04 so much is that we are seeing the ramifications of

1) the culture of the time of young men, and in john’s case way too young, going into something as horrific as the Vietnam War was [on all sides] and witnessing [and in some cases participating in particularly] horrifying things

2) this mindset of kinda toxic masculinity in the sense that men, and especially in this time frame, are expected to suck it up. his raised voice at carlos regarding therapy sessions reminded me of that, but also we have to keep in mind that john was on edge the entire episode and clearly quick to anger. but again, it’s 1972, and john’s a young adult, white male, in the midwest, veteran. i can see how he’s resistant to talking to people about his problems, especially if he just feels no better doing so [a common misconception that just one session of therapy and you’ll start to feel better], therefore it’s easy to associate therapy with feeling like shit and then avoiding it all together.

and you combine john’s mental health issues, bc clearly he has PTSD [*note, not everyone with PTSD is angry, violent, or volitile. but SOME are. and clearly john is one of them, likely backed up by other issues throughout his childhood with the father issue] — with this queer...well i was going to say coding but that look he gave carlos and some other implications in this episode feels a little stronger than that lol — then you get an interesting situation.

i think it’s important for us to not forget the nuance that SPN often undertook, and that the team at the helm of this show also aren’t unfamiliar with. this was literally the strongest episode so far, and i know usually episodes get stronger as seasons go on, but this was particularly strong.

because — the nuance here is that not all queer people are good, kind, nice, whatever. queer people can be abusers, queer people can have anger issues, queer people can shun treatment for issues [with understandable reasons] and leave things to fester —

queer people sometimes don’t come out the otherside of things in a good way.

and i think it’s also important to have characters like that.

*NOW please understand i’m not saying to revert back to Hollywood in the... idk 40s 50s and 60s? even 70s i guess. but there was really a run in movies where queer people were the predators the villains the — blahblahblah. essentially demonizing us in film. and then when Hollywood got tired of doing that to us, they’d just punish us and never give our characters a happy ending.

But, much like with many things in storytelling, it honestly depends on the story and imo, the time period in which you’re telling it.

Like i already said, the team at the helm of this show already know and understand’s SPN nuance and coding abilities.

so to me, having a young adult, white male, who witnessed a horrifying tragedy [one of many he probably experienced but this one in particular], who doesn’t feel like he can get help, doesn’t trust the process, in the early 70s, who is about to be thrown into the ringer [he’s actually in it already] with cosmic forces, who’s literally facing down a violent god in this episode — who perhaps may be queer.

this isn’t a show demonizing someone being queer and also being a neglectful and manipulative and emotionally, physically abusive father — it’s just the fact that sometimes, queer people can in fact be neglectful, manipulative, and emotionally/physically abusive parents in the future.

and since it’s fiction we got cosmic forces mixed into the salad plot bowl as well.

honestly i’m really happy that they already showed that john’s issues do not just happen upon him when mary dies. that he’s always had this simmering anger.

anger is a secondary emotion brought on by frustration, confusion, annoyance, fear, and all of that fun stuff.

the winchesters isn’t going to be a lighthearted happy comedy. we know where john winds up.

making him a more dynamic character in spn canon is fascinating, and since we already know where the ride is going to end up, no problem in encouraging that dynamic character building [while also wondering ‘what if’ a lot of the time like myself lol]

#idk if any of this made sense #i wasj ust going to talk about queer john but i feel like i kinda went off the rails #this is what happens when i write before meds kick in #spnwin #spnwin spoilers #spnwin meta #i guess? is this meta?#idk #0104 #long post

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