#which is also like john in spnwin

[shallowseeker]

You know what my favorite thing about Sam is? Even though he and Cas butt heads and don't exactly get along, Sam usually takes Cas's side. It's hilarious.

Sam would absolutely stab Cas in the back, and THEN turn around and take his side.

Kind of like [OMITTED]

8x22:

SAM: Dude, go easy on Cas, okay. He's one of the good guys. DEAN: Dude, if anybody else – I mean anybody – pulled that kind of crap, I would stab them in their neck on principle. Why should I give him a free pass? SAM: Because it's Cas.

Or back in 7x01, fresh off stabbing him in the back BTW:

SAM: Dean, look, I know you think that Cas is gone -- DEAN: It's 'cause he is. SAM: He's not! He's in there somewhere, Dean. I know it. DEAN: No, you don't. SAM: No, I don't. But, look, I was pretty far gone sometimes myself...

///

SAM (praying): Hey, Castiel. Um... Maybe this is pointless. Look... I don't know if any part of you even cares, but, um, I still think you're one of us, deep down. I mean, way, way, way off the reservation, but... Look, we still have till dawn to stop this. Let us help. Please.

On the one hand, it's easier for Sam not to take Cas's betrayal so personally. He saw the betrayal coming, so he wasn't made a fool of. And also, Sam's not in love with Cas, so that helps him keep the emotional pain at something of a distance. There's not the same kinda tension.

On the other, Sam has a niggling core... a rebellious-coded "child" who remains vulnerable to authority figures for much of his run, (SEE: with how fanboy he was over the angels+ feeling kinda happy having a past-in-common with John Winchester).

Sam loves to see himself IN the father figure, and he loves to make excuses FOR the father figure. It's one of the most delicious things about Sam (and Lucifer, via his own words about "rebellion" in s13).

I think Sam has a tendency to take the father's and the husband's "side," really, even in that one episode with James Marsters 7x05 Shut Up, Dr. Phil.

Which makes me think about how Lucifer is rebellious in terms of behavior, but says he actually always wanted to belong and please his dad:

LUCIFER from 13x13: No. No I always wanted to fit in, please a father I couldn’t please. And now I’m gonna be a father. Probably screw it up like he did.

AND I can't remember of find the episode, but I know Lucifer starts speaking of God differently after he has a son on the way, suddenly cutting him a whole lot of slack. (I think he does this in Exodus, too?)

I love Sam and Lucifer's twin struggles. So crunchy!

[mybrainproblems]

Gay John truther 🤝

anon... anon, who are you? 😭 please come back! 😭 this seems to be such a rarebird headcanon... where art thou, fellow gay john truthers? please interact!

but like fr EYE saw how heartbroken you played john when pastor jim died mr jdm.

[angelsdean]

All these thoughts also prompted me to think abt what John and Mary's fights were often about, especially the fight where John leaves and Dean then comforts Mary. And I think a big part of it was Mary keeping secrets and sneaking around with regard to hunting.

We know she was still hunting in 1980, when she saves Asa Fox. Dean would've been a year old and the hunt is not local, it's up in Canada. Mary says she's been tracking this werewolf for a long time and that they have history. I do think when she says "a long time" she means years and that she hasn't actively been tracking it but it's been something on the back-burner that she's kept an eye on all these years. But that still means she left for a number of days at the very least, and I wonder what she told John. What excuse did she come up with to justify suddenly taking off when they have a baby at home. And no, I don't think she needed to be there as "the mom" to take care of Dean or that she can't spend time away from the home or that fathers are incapable of taking care of their children or anything like that. But I think John would certainly wonder what's taking her away from them so suddenly. What could possibly be so important. And with a hunt like this, I don't think she could've exactly given him a set time-frame for her return.

Now, imagine that happening multiple times. Imagine that happening again when Sam is just a few months old. She says she has to go visit her uncle who's poorly (father of the Campbell cousins. The uncle that paid for her headstone when she died). And then she's gone for longer than she anticipated. And John is just suspicious. And when she comes back they argue about it. "I know you're lying! Just tell me the truth, Mary! What, are you seeing someone else?" And Mary holding firm to her lies because her family cannot know about the supernatural and hunting. Because she doesn't want her kids growing up like she did. Because John is her suburban fairytale. He can't know. And then John snaps. He's pissed. He thinks she's cheating while he's working to provide for the family AND watching the kids in her absence. So he flings a "Is Sam even mine?" at her in his rage and she slaps him and tells him "Don't you dare" and then John storms out in a huff but then calls later to talk about it more and Mary shuts him down. "No, John. … We’re not having this conversation again... Think about what? … You’ve two boys at home. …"

I can imagine a version of this phone call going something like this:

John calls. Maybe apologizes for what he said, but mostly just wants her to be honest with him.

John: Please, Mary, can we just talk about this.

Mary: No, John.

John: I just want you to tell me the truth! What are you hiding? What's going on that you can't tell me?

Mary: We're not having this conversation again.

John: Oh okay, 'we're not having this conversation again.' Well then can you blame me for where my mind is going? What would you think, huh?

Mary: Think about what?

John: You know how it looks, Mary. And I just, I can't keep doing this--

Mary: You have two boys at home. (and ohh the delicious irony of that in the context of her being the one leaving to continue hunting in secret)

John, probably, since the convo seems to continue: Oh that is rich coming from you right now, Mary.

Anyways, this is only one of many many scenarios I can imagine of their fights. And it's perhaps a little too sympathetic to John, but! I enjoy thinking of John complexly, especially considering how Young John is presented in SPN, and also John in the opening scene of the Pilot seems like the easy-going family man, who definitely had underlying issues prior to Mary's death (thank you SPNWIN for confirming that) but clearly those issues got worse after Mary's death, and for the most part he wasn't yet the guy we see him become after he is transformed by grief and anger. Also s12 Mary's rose-tinted recollections of John being such a good father, which starkly contrast to Dean's later memories of John, I think it's not a huge leap to say John pre-Mary's death was a good father, and I think seeing Mary leave them (likely repeatedly) under secretive circumstances for days at a time would have bothered John back then and been a continuous point of contention in their marriage.

And again, this is all simply one angle of interpretation, theorizing, and headcanoning and by no means the only possible scenario.

[spnwin-reader]

When going up against Mars Neto—John overdid it, displaying the "overkill" signature of a disrupted psyche.

But his anger saved Carlos. Carlos knows this, and thanks him, but he's unsettled. Perhaps he senses that this experience... injured John terribly.

Carlos just doesn't want to see it... or his part in it.

He tentatively offers this:

CARLOS: Thank you for what you did back there. JOHN: You're welcome. CARLOS: If you ever... want to talk. You let me know, okay? JOHN (an uncomfortable smile): Yeah. I wi—I will.

///

What a difference from the flippant pressure Carlos put on John to talk earlier in the episode—the very thing that triggered John and left him feeling cornered!

After delivering a somewhat more philosophical take—not a specific personal trauma—Carlos bailed to do the investigation. He spoke about how they’re all the same, but it wasn’t rooted in an intensely personal grief or loss.

It was about the shape of his life, mostly.

And then he left John to sit in the fallout zone.

Anyway, I’m just saying that why on earth would John want to talk to Carlos now? Carlos accidentally made himself an unsafe figure in John's world of emotional vulnerabilities:

CARLOS: My friend would actually love to go next, right John?

spnwin 1x04

(This is... a little analogous to how Sam Winchester operates with respect to talking it out with his own loved ones.)

///

With respect to John's overkill, I can't help but be reminded of Mary seeing Jack's overkill signature in Game Night.

Both Carlos and Mary are "big heart" characters, who sometimes unintentionally lean on others too hard in service of The Cause and The Need to Protect—until those they lean on break wide open.

(NOTE: We see Mary also do this with Cas in First Blood.)

There’s just something so crunchy about circumstances where someone’s so useful, so powerful that you never bench them—because you just need them too damn much. (But well…that kind of weight is way too heavy for anyone to carry.)

14x17

BONUS:

“You left them!” she shouts. John’s not around for her to be mad at, so she takes it out on Cas. (But also, she realizes that she left them too. Sees the error of her ways and apologizes.)

///

Sam does this on occasion:

DEAN: Oh, what? You think he's ready? He's had a pretty rough go of it lately. SAM: Which one of us hasn't? Seems insane to leave our one and only angel friend on the bench. DEAN (resigned): I'll call him. SAM: Thank you.

11x06

///

So, ofc, does Dean.

(x) (x) (x) (x)

Dean wants Cas to be invincible to both keep them safe as a family... and also to be strong enough to take care of himself.

Jack-Dean-Mary all tend to trade in having great expectations for Cas in particular.

When Dean marshals the forces, Cas often ends up with the heavy burdens—partly because of tragic circumstances of the narrative, and partly because he’s so often physically the strongest.

//

And so. The "courage" characters often get revved into overdrive:

//

Even Cas has an "overkill" signature on occasion

Godstiel is the obvious example, but the moments in 15x03 and 15x06 often go unnoticed. Respectively, they’re signs of Cas rising to the occasion—but also, like Jack and John, of a worsening psyche. We’ll see how his resilience sometimes slips into something else: the dreaded “destiny.”

Above: Cas overkills Belphegor, destroying Lilith’s Crook and Jack’s vessel in the process—cutting off any chance of getting Jack back, at least for the time being. It’s a decisive move, yes, but also a glimpse of his fraying resilience.

&

How Cas kills the sheriff in 15x05 is also... disturbing. Angry. "Savage."

And the “Take who you want, when you want”shows us Cas’s anger at Chuck. It connects to his later words to Dean: "When God took [Jack] from us…"

We get so locked in and amazed by the strength of certain characters that sometimes we miss these signs.

///

No one is unbreakable.

Sometimes, with certain people... we just forget.

///

Like:

BELPHAGOR: Funny— they didn't seem to think twice about it—

//

Just like The Cause keeps winning out over care in SPN prime, the truth is that the Core Four in SPNwin don’t really hesitate to send John into danger—whether it’s taking on a monster in episode one or facing off against a god:

MILLIE: You sent John into battle against a god who's immortal?

(She didn’t know that, Millie. But it’s true that she sent him into that minefield. That's how soldiers operate... and it's tragic.)

Above: Like Dean, Mary can at times be prone to a mission-oriented (or safety-oriented) insensitivity. She runs hot and cold—tender one moment, tough the next.

..

Mary's hypocrisy and immaturity is every bit as delicious as John's grief- and fear- induced anger:

Later in 1x06, Mary will accuse John of throwing himself into danger, and it never occurs to her that her own hypocrisy might be what chafes. "Everyone's worried about you!" she says.

Then she accuses him of "running towards danger." She says, "this isn't a game; this is life or death." But is he the one who doesn't know that... or is SHE? (See above.)

The bottom line is this: she feels that she can put him in danger, no problems. Because she trusts her own judgment. Her own judgment gives her the illusion of control.

As for John, she wants him to be strong and to be resilient and take on what she determines to be the acceptable level of danger. He should slow down when she says slow down, and most importantly... he should make sure not to actually be in danger, even when and especially when she's sending him into that danger.

//

In 1x06, she asks to be let into his head, but she turns cold the minute he does. "I don't need you using me as an excuse to avoid your issues," she says, even as she verbally minimizes his anger and fear, and sidesteps that the root of his running is loss. (Loss of his father and the terrible fear of losing her too.) That's an approach that shuts down conversation, even if she is right.

Best part? She's doing all this while avoiding her own hypocrisy re: John's safety and her role as his battle commander.

Far from a warning sign, this is actually a sign of the maturing love between John and Mary: namely, that it's scary to care about each other. They want to be stronger for and more cautious with each other’s safety.

(SEE: Dean and Cas in Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets: -> "Wow, this Benjamin seems like he's pretty cool, you know. Like he wouldn't make any half-cocked, knee-jerk choices.")

It's an impossible tightrope. The pot and the kettle!

It's the duality of being a comrade-in-arms with him and the burgeoning desire to be his lover. She wants to be protected by him and protect him from harm.

///

John the weapon

Eventually, in SPNwin, they’ll have to reckon with how they use John (and they will, in 1x06 The Art of Dying). It's about the fact that they know John’s struggling, but they lean on him anyway because he's strong and they need him. (Ironically, they do this even though John's the newest to the hunting world!)

It's so interesting to me that in SPN prime, John starts out as an innocent civilian—lied to, unarmed, and unprepared to protect himself or his family. Afterwards, he overcorrects, becoming the hardened, cruel father we know so well.

But in SPNwin, he steps into the life and becomes John the weapon almost immediately. And right away, Mary starts to lean on him in ways that echo how her Season 12 prime counterpart instinctively tried to lean on Cas.

Like Henry before him, John seems unbreakable—like "nothing can kill the guy" (SEE: Larry in 8x12: "So, Henry is dead. I was so sure that—that he had survived.")

In SPN, characters like John—and especially Cas and Jack, sometimes Dean—are often lost to that same sense of duty. Not because they aren’t loved, but because they were so often needed too much to be protected. It's an agony, really.

DEAN: So you're always thinking to yourself, he's indestructible. He'll always be around, nothing can kill [him]. (2x03)

///

JACK: Since I've been alive, everyone assumed I would be this special person who goes on forever. (14x07)

[soft-pine]

hiiii!!! how are you? :))

i’ve seen you mention a few times in the past that you’re not really a chuck won theorist, so i’m curious (1) what about it doesn’t work for you? and (2) what do you think about the finale and even spnwin?

hi!! aw it's so nice to get an ask!

1) okay so like i REALLY GET chuck won! like i GET IT!!! and i absolutely see why it's so popular and compelling. i feel like my issues with it stem from two things: 1. who my spn community was and 2. narrative reasons.

like to be really transparent, my spn fandom experience was mostly on twitter. and on twitter there was a VERY BIG chuck won theorist who was also a really big gay-dean anti. and they harassed a young friend of mine's fics and accounts and would go on rants about gay-dean people. so my community mostly ended up being people ... who didn't vibe with that... and therefore ended up mostly not being chuck won people. (that person is on tumblr too but i haven't ever seen a chuck won moot reblog from them which is nice. and also when they were doing all this harassing, they hadn't even seen the whole god danged show!)

narratively i'm kinda mixed. i think chuck won has some GREAT potential for fix-it's (both like canon continuation????!!!!! and fics!) and i think there's lots of fun puzzle pieces to put together to make it really compelling and supported by the text! like i really do think chuck won is maybe one of the simplest and best premises for that stuff. HOWEVER, i can't get over dean saying "see, that's not who i am" and not killing chuck in 15.19. like THAT MEANS THE FUCKING WORLD TO ME!!!!! and i get that even in chuck won, maybe killing chuck then wouldn't have done anything and like idk i get there can be layers. but like choosing to beat god by just being the ultimate punching bag (as he's always treated you) until he's expended all his hate and all his power taking it out on you and then just walking away.... THAT FUCKING SLAPS IM SORRY!!! i am gobbling it up and up! also i think another part of why i'm not so into chuck won is that i'm not really a jack girlie so i don't /personally/ find his 15.19 actions particularly ooc. but also like... if the finale and spnwin is all the continuation we get, i feel like there is something in dean being a being with autonomy booking it around the universes and cas being alive and in heaven. like idk that's crumbs but like if this is all the canon we'll get, i'd rather not think chuck is still in control. if that makes sense? so how i feel really depends on if i'm in fix-it or make-the-best-of-it mode.

2) well i hate the finale lmao! a long time ago i described myself as like not a chuck won truther but a john won truther... which idk is also really sad... but i think one of the most important narrative through lines in spn is dean managing the trauma john left him with. and in a very real sense the finale is a categorically a Tragedy when seen from that lens. and that is the kind of fix-it that i /personally/ find the most compelling (i.e. the mundane rather than the cosmic) so that is why i lean in that direction and my fics are fix-its to that tragedy and that story. like unfortunately, i want to write the whole finale off but dean's speech is just too real to me, i just can't. i want to and i can't :( (i wrote more about it here...) so yeah, spn, to me, is the tragedy of growing up closeted and abused and parentified. so the fact that the finale echoes 3.16 and is like Yes those things are real and they will Kill You... makes me want to dig in! like it's awful!! they shouldn't have ended it like that but idk maybe i'm crazy but i feel like - to me - there is some validation in the way it just Is a Tragedy (even if it is NOT framed like that at all and that episode is crazy bad and the lighting is insane and they play carry on my wayward son twice in a row). i hope that makes some sense??

2.1) i really enjoyed spnwin when it was airing!! it was the first time i had gotten to be in spn fandom with new eps coming out and i felt like i was constantly nauseated and worried and exuberant and insane and it was great i miss it! i got really annoyed by all the john takes i was seeing to be fair. i LOVED carlos so much! i think the parallels (intentional and not) for dean and mary and deancas are all delicious!!!! but also sadly multiverses are a big ick for me and i was really really disappointed they didn't like properly resurrect dean though i LOVE that he IMMEDIATELY broke the rules and dipped right the fuck out of heaven. but again, i'm a mundane guy, i don't care as much about dean being like a semi-divine universe hopping being (or w/e edlund said i dont recall). i want him alive on earth eating a grilled cheese with tomato soup in his kitchen that he has set up just right. BUT i did love seeing him and hearing him and i would watch ten million seasons of a show even if it just had three seconds of dean's voice in every episode so there's that. i also am a big Deans-only-grow-beards-when-they're-highly-stressed theorist so the beard made me sad but i loved his dress up! and i LOVED the vibe of the car on a foggy road at the end of the first ep. i DID NOT like the akrida people talking about needing to kill him (HE HAS SUFFERED ENOUGH!!) and i DID NOT LIKE him being trapped in the void or w/e for a long time cause like i know he was in there worrying he failed and everyone would die and no version of his parents could be happy and i swear i cannot take that shit. but dean saving his parents who are younger than him is DELICIOUS I AM FEASTING!!! and i have evil fic ideas about spnwin that i should actually write sometime

thanks for the ask! sorry for the novels! hope they're coherent enough!! <3

[roublardise]

everyone have you heard enough about I'll Sing a Hymn to Mary !!! 🫶🫶🫶

I'll Sing a Hymn to Mary - thereweresunflowers / @mrcowboydeanwinchester Mary Campbell Character Study | 34 656

“I saw everything,” Mary tells John after she drives back out of the portal. “Every possible version of myself." A deal with a yellow-eyed demon. A fire in her baby’s nursery. A resurrection. These are the beats of Mary Winchester’s life - but Mary Campbell doesn’t know that yet. And when she drives head first into the Akrida Queen’s portal, it’s up to her and the mystery man Dean to ride through the alternate universes of the world-between-worlds before Mary’s soul fractures with the strain of the journey. But more importantly than that, Mary has questions. Like: who is Dean, really? Why is her mother so strangely absent? And, if she’s never been free, has she ever been herself? Needless to say, it’s one hell of a road trip.

Mary sees every possible versions of herself!! Spnwin meet the OG, every Mary gets her moment and you'll feel which is which, much bisexual rights imo. Mary judging her death (but not really hers) bc wtf is that (iconic).

it's about the ROLES WE PLAY, THE ACT OF IT ALL AND WHO IS IT FOR (the cameras, the audience, dean). it's about friendships, it's about getting free, it's about reclaiming your own life!!! it got everything we love to see in Mary's works, beautifully executed. you feel sated by the end, like thanks god finally a good timeline

"Generations and universes intertwined in happiness and not grief for a few precious seconds." there is grief. but also. hope 💕

ps: i think you can read it fine without having watched spnwin! maybe chap 4 won't hit as much, but the story is very tied to supernatural (2005-2020)

[catsconflictscopicsandchamomile]

ok so here's why throwing Fae Lore into spn makes a revival/continuation possible

Here's the setup:

-"Blurrywife" is a Faerie, specifically a malevolent/vampiric one, definitely a Succubus type. The mimes are her human thralls, hence why they don't act like normal vampires.

-Baby, yes the car, is ALSO a Faerie, specifically a kind of shapeshifter called a Pooka. John captured her in the early 80s, and, being John Winchester, never told his kids about this.

-Chuck Won. duh???

-Jack is, and was always destined to be, the next Jack O' The Lantern, and after Chuck threw his flaming corpse out Heaven, he's been ruling his own spoopy little candy-coated afterlife. pumpkin boi

Here's the timeline:

-Blurrywife & Mime Crew are kidnapping kids, likely for The Fae's 7-year tithe of souls to Hell (a thing that exists in the lore), when the Winchesters show up. Sam & Dean, as usual, have NO idea how to identify or fight Fae, and get their asses handed to them, with Dean falling to some weird Gaelic cold-iron magic fuckery (points to Blurrywife & crew for figuring out how to fight with iron despite being unable to touch it. 10/10 fuck these guys tho fr)

-Sam, alone and grieving, is an easy target and she picks him off before he even gets to the car, taking (something close to) Eileen's form and trapping him in a dreamscape, similar to how Djinn attack in spn.

-Sam, Dean AND Baby (there's def some Fae Drama going on there, yikes) have been stuck the Fae Realms for THREE YEARS as of Nov 2023.

-Dean and Baby escaped at some point, staying with Jack for a bit before running off to the 1970s like a dumbass and getting EVERYONE, including Jack and Bobby (why is Bobby even here??? HOW DID BOBBY'S GHOST GET STUCK IN THE FAE REALMS WHAT DID HE *DO*) recaptured.

-Sam has had it much worse, being drained to a white-haired husk of his former self and left for dead within a few days/months. DJ is half-faerie, raised in the fae realms, and could be 3 years old or 50, who knows. I don't like thinking abt how he happened.

-Here's the setup for the continuation:

Dean (fairly intact besides the cursed stab wound in his back) escapes with Sam (nearly dead, white-haired, displaying more or less the typical signs of someone who was taken & drained of life by The Fae) and stumbles into Charlie's safehouse. the Fae Arc can continue from this point, w Baby's true nature being revealed, Blurrywife as a major antagonist/BBEG, DJ going from possible threat -> clearly a well-meaning and very brave kid -> newest Winchester family member who Sam fully accepts as his son (plus s4-cas-esque moments as DJ tries to adapt to living on Earth. DJ ilysm but most cars aren't sentient and you can't bring your longbow to community college)

also Cas is still in The Empty, and Jack & Bobby are still captured, so that's some major plot points right there

Destiel is canon.

...anyway, this is all still pretty convoluted, but it allows for:

-15x20 to have been "not real" without being retconned

-DJ to exist without either setting the continuation ~30 yrs in the future (how would that work), or repeating spnwin's time-travel-kid-ex-machina (that's just not good writing I'm sry)

-spn finally doing something w The Fae (& related lore) besides one-off eps

-human!impala as main character

-explanations of weird shit in the finale (rebar, vamp-mimes, etc)

-collective fandom catharsis at Blurrywife's bitch ass

-the full horror potential of a faceless woman in a long dress standing ominously in the corner while time blurs forward around you and you age to death in five minutes

-some VERY fun metacommentary & crossover easter eggs if you use certain bits of Fae lore

-still works w my other big finale theory/revival idea/if-they-dont-do-this-i-will-be-so-pissed, which is the whole Deanmon 2.0 thing. but that's a post unto itself.

(also yes. making Blurrywife a djinn IS simpler and requires 0 new lore and makes perfect sense in canon. however, I hate how djinn are portrayed in spn. it feels vaguely racist and makes me uncomfy to write/read. so um that's why I didn't do that)

[scoobydoodean]

where would you place spnwin season 1 in a supernatural cinematic universe season ranking? (ik s15 would probably be last)

It's hard for me to even say ngl because to me it does feel very different from spn? Like it feels very distinct from SPN to me until 1.12 and 1.13. It feels more scooby gang than gothic horror + redneck dragon ball Z. Less angst, more fun, which probably should be refreshing... but I guess I like the disease. Like just generally, I'll say I don't find spnwin as compelling as SPN? But it has a great soundtrack, and I did like Carlos and Latika, and this AU John and Mary were also interesting to watch in the same way 4.03 and etc were interesting. The writing was solid (it had to be with the episode constraints involved) and knew what it wanted to say.

I think it's a solid season of TV (besides a little bit of a pacing issue in the Pilot). Like especially for a CW show. But it's probably not very accessible to people who didn't watch SPN, and given the way a good 2/3 of the fandom was immediately against watching it, I'm not at all surprised it didn't get renewed.

The episodes that interested me most were 1.09, 1.12 and 1.13, and it's because 1.09 and 1.12 are obvious criticisms of the SPN finale, and 1.13 gives me back MY Dean instead of whoever that guy in 15.20 was. So like. 100% it is a better season of TV than season 15 to me. But it also kinda feels like comparing apples and oranges to go beyond that, weirdly.

[blanketforcas]

Maybe my expectations were too high in terms of what to expect and maybe it's not fair to compare the two but while I thoroughly enjoyed TW and was happy to finally see diversity it did feel underwhelming to me compared to GK. GK was at times clunky in delivery and in some ways a bit simplistic when it came to social issues (especially class) but I did very much appreciate how the different backgrounds these characters came from influenced how they approached the world and their dynamic with each other which made the characters feel more real and the relationships felt more earned. Whereas with TW, I do think they missed some opportunities (like commenting on the social atmosphere of the time or like adding tension in terms of dynamics- what I mean by this is Carlos a queer POC who was forced to join the military should feel some type of way about John a cishet white guy who joined out of his own volition). Also the golem thing was just a bad and disappointing step backwards but that's another story for another time

okay there's a lot here and all valid points imo! i'll be honest i only watched the first 3 episodes of GK & then some snippets here and there. but i see what you mean and i do feel a similar way about spnwin. some of it is unfortunate some of it they could stand to look at more closely as to not make the same mistakes in the future.

and i do think they received and saw some of that feedback so i hope they do something with it if the show or a spn continuation gets picked up somewhere.

[shallowseeker]

I am still thinking about your pitch for The Winchesters with Henry as the bad guy. If you care.

"I have to go back and kill the cupid. Then everything will be as it should."

[wigglebox]

Thoughts on the SPNWIN Finale

Okay so I’m gonna divide this into two parts: Implications for the future of where this show will go, and then implications for a potential continuation. 

**This is me writing after only seeing the episode once and then popping through here and there to try and remember things, but I may mis-remember or misinterpret but I wanna get these first thoughts out of the way!**

First off, just to quickly summarize my thoughts at the top: I really loved it. 

They had a hard hand dealt with this show, which is, only 13 episodes and no promise of a season 2. Because of that, they had to write it in a way that both closed this season but kept the door cracked open for more season. It’s a very very hard balance to do, but I think they still did it. 

To me, I have a lot of questions, but I LIKE having questions because that draws me back for season 2. And, if done properly, it can also lure people into the continuation. 

Implications for the future of SPNWIN

This episode was a whirlwind so I apologize if I mis-remember anything! 

I think the key thing that I took away from this in terms of future potential was the journal. They have Dean’s journal in the sense that Dean and Sam had John’s journal. 

John and Mary take off in the end but I have no doubt in my mind Lata, Carlos, and Ada will all come back and play a part some how as well. 

Which, by the way, the fact that this Carlos was THEE Carlos that was referenced in a Robbie episode a million years ago is so amazing, idk why. Robbie you madman! 

But, now we more or less have the confirmation that this isn’t truly our world, however we are going to be sticking with these characters in the future. Therefore, I don’t know if that means they’ll be universe hopping too, I don’t know if it means they’ll uncover more mysteries from Dean’s journal? I think that’s likely. I also think that will be fun. 

I also ALSO think that will provide more world building for the continuation, like this season already did. 

There is the obvious issue in the room of that being there were only 13 episodes and this may have felt more like a mid-season finale rather than a finale, however not being promised a season 2 has had to have been thee most annoying thing to write around. 

But, for a first season, it set up some solid base foundation work for them to continue to explore more stories while also not screwing around with canon. 

There are still questions I want answered and who knows when or if they’ll ever be answered. The biggest one, however, is what on earth is in that journal?

I have more questions but I need to rewatch the show to form them so they’ll be in a follow up post most likely. 

Another question I have is: Was that really Dean from start to finish? The hair is the biggest thing for me bc J finished filming Big Sky and there was no reason not to cut it, or use a wig of some kind [lol]. But also in general it felt different a little bit. Like it’s still him but also it didn’t feel like him from the pilot and from the photos we were seeing. But it really may well be him all along! I imagine that’s part of the mystery. 

I don’t think we’ll see him again, or if we do, it’s not going to be the same version. I think he served as a launching point. Several friends have made this point already but basically he laid the foundation for all this multi-verse stuff and now the kiddos are on their own and there’s a lottttt to explore. 

Again, I have to rewatch in order to fully form my thoughts on the future for the show. 

My question is gonna be basically are they going to explore different universes? And, how, if Chuck kinda offed all of them? But I’m okay with my questions for now because I like to go with the flow of the show. I don’t want to figure everything out right now. 

Implications for a SPN Continuation

I’ll talk about this first since I have some frens who were disappointed that 1) Cas wasn’t with Jack and Bobby and 2) Cas wasn’t mentioned. 

If you’re new around here, then I’ll cut to the chase now: I am a full on “Cas Is Not In Heaven” believer. There are several reasons why. I am also a “Chuck Won” and “Jack is Chuck” believer. Also several reasons why. 

I don’t believe Cas is in Heaven because they never showed him getting there. “Well Jack got him out of The Empty,” is one of those things that I’ll believe it when I see it, because otherwise, it’s too shady for me. Cas was last taken, alive, to an Empty where everything else was awake and alive and taken on behalf of a deal, not because he died. The Empty has wanted Cas for a while, and has been pissed that he’s gotten out. Cas is a PRIZE for The Empty so I don’t really see it giving up Cas any time soon for any particular reason. 

Especially if that reason is Jack. 

I don’t believe The Empty likes Jack either, especially after their last interaction being so bad (Jack exploding in The Empty, waking everything up). I don’t feel like The Empty is willing to do any favors for him. 

God isn’t supposed to be able to influence The Empty but I think, since Lilith and Lucifer were brought down, that Chuck and The Empty had an arrangement. And from 15x18 to 15x20 I had literally no reason to believe that Cas, a threat to Chuck, would have been let go for any reason, even if Jack was “God” now. 

It would have been sloppy story telling, in my opinon, if they tried to explain how Cas got into Heaven in such a short amount of time, and would have extremely taken away from the emotional magnitude of 15x18. 

And that’s how I felt with 1x13 of The Winchesters. 

If we had seen Cas I would have been upset, I think. Because again, there’s no explanation for him being there. If it wasn’t going to be a *wink wink nudge nudge* thing like “We’ll explain it in the continuation” then I didn’t want it. 

The reason why I feel so passionate about this is beacuse of the Chuck Won theory. And because of that theory, and how Cas’ role evolved over time in Supernatural, I don’t believe Chuck can “recreate” Cas. Because Cas exists outside of Chuck’s narrative, and isn’t beholdened to Chuck, that means Chuck can’t reproduce Cas. It’s just never going to happen. 

And I feel strongly about Chuck not being able to do that SPECIFICALLY because when all is said and done, I don’t EVER want Dean to look at Cas and wonder if he’s real or not (throwback to 15x02 anyone?). 

Therefore, I did not want to see Cas in The Winchesters except for very very very specific ways that I knew deep down wouldn’t happen because this isn’t the show for that. 

And I’m sorry I wish I could go along with the Cas in Heaven memes because they do make me laugh — but also the thought of him being there with no explanation and still not showing up makes me more sad than not. 

And that’s another thing—

With 15x20, and no Cas, there had been conspiracy after conspiracy for the last two and a half years as to why, everywhere between network censorship to Misha secretly filming and then them not showing anything. I’m personally more inclined to believe a mixture of: Censorship (Dean can’t reciprocate so what’s the point) and a deliberate choice on behalf of Dabb. But that’s for a different post because this is already very very long. 

But, him not being in the finale — while it fed into the Chuck Won theory — it also didn’t have enough stability to truly land on one theory or another because COVID restrictions were also blamed (in whatever manner people saw fit to blame it). 

However, NOW — with Cas NOT showing up next to Jack and Bobby — even tho in 15x20 Bobby said that Cas helped Jack — was very LOUD to me. 

So what does that imply, to me?

1) No Cas until they have the time and space to put the story and emotions into it that it deserves. AKA — since I’m a Cas Is In The Empty believer — A rescue, by Dean. Even Jackles at JIB11 said that he’d want to explore that. Both of them have expressed an interest in exploring a follow up to 15x18. They can’t do that in the season finale of a spin off show that hadn’t mentioned them virtually at all (apart from parallels) all season. 

2) No Cas because Cas isn’t there. I’ll get into my “Jack isn’t Jack” thing in a second, but because there was also this choice not to have Cas there — once is a mistake, but twice? Now it’s starting something. Especially since this time, they DID have Jack there. It’s like they’re showing us a Cas-shaped puzzle piece missing. The piece may be missing but you can clearly see the hole and know what’s supposed to be there (kinda like Dean’s reciprocation!).

To me these are interesting storytelling tactics. And that’s what this is, storytelling. 

I feel like maybe we lost the plot a little bit, we being The Fandom, in terms of long-term storytelling efforts. 

Cas being in The Empty still really does open up a TON of plot ideas for a continuation. Is it sad he’s not with Dean right now? Absolutely. But I’d rather have them apart than have a flimsy, unexplained reunion just to have a reunion. 

“They didn’t even mention Cas,” and yeah, maybe they could have, but as friends in Discord servers have pointed out, that also locks them into a story that they may not be able to tell so it’s better to keep it like how it was in 15x20 where Dean never spoke his name. That is, it adds to the uncanny valley of it all. 

Jack isn’t Jack 

Look at this lovely post. This reminds me of the first time I was ever exposed to Chuck Won, Chuck is Jack theory way back in ... I want to say December 2020. Someone had compared Jack’s clothes to Chuck’s, and here we are again. 

Also these tags from @clarkenting​

Jack didn’t feel like Jack. He hasn’t felt like Jack since 15x19. 

I already freak out and ramble a lot about Chuck Won when it comes to Becky’s Notes in 15x04 about “no one even mentions Cas” and the line about rock music and the like. But another note she made was regarding the villain’s monologue at the end and how it kinda sucked. Jack had a monologue at the end. Jenny, in 15x20, said 8 words. 

So Jack post-15x19 has always been suspicious to me! And last night was no different, especially since it’s the most Chuck Like he’s looked. 

Also, another thing that got me, was the reference to Carry On (the Kansas song). It felt super duper pointed and not just an Easter Egg but like — hey this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of 15x20 and how Dean was like, weirdly, “I love this song!” a little too out of character in heaven as he began to drive off. 

Dean’s favorite band isn’t Kansas, it’s Led Zeppelin. 

Also, the reference felt like a fourth wall break, something that Chuck would do. 

So no, I don’t believe that Jack was Jack last night. I’m sure if I go through the dialogue, which I plan to do lol, I’ll find even more reason to believe that. 

Another thing that confused me was Bobby being there. Dean drove off, alone, and was continuously shown alone, throughout his drive. But BOBBY was there last night? Confused I am. But in the good way. 

We know now that Baby can hope planes of existence so I really really hope she can hop into The Empty. 

I’m someone who believes that Dean’s “Heaven” is in reality just The Empty. Or, as sometimes my friends will hear me call it, Chuck’s toy shelf. I am also someone who believes we DID see Chuck in 1x08 as part of the band and it wasn’t just a Rob cameo. Rob’s character has too much implication to just casually toss him in as a background character. 

--

This is super duper long, and I apologize but also not really! 

Some final thoughts (for now) (any follow up posts I make also will be under #spnwin thots):

I think this finale set up things for both a season 2 AND a continuation. I’ve been a contination believer since literally the SPN finale finished airing. At first it was a way to cope, but then it became a full blown belief for me the more and more first Jackles talked about it, and then the rest of the cast. 

I’m really excited for season 2 of The Winchesters should it happen. I really hope it does. I personally believe it has a high chance of migrating to HBO Max for a home — and if that’s the case that’ll be awesome bc I also believe that’s where a continuation will go. 

All of our favorites of the season will be in season 2 as well. We will see Carlos, Lata, Ada, Millie, Betty, Tony, etc. back. There are still questions about their characters too that we need answering. I’m still suspicious of Betty! 

I liked that they contained this just enough for the finale just in case they don’t get a season 2, but still left dangling plot threads to catch for a season 2 (which felt very season 15 of SPN to me. In my eyes, they really did leave some things dangling for a continuation.)

What kind of potential world building will we get now that we know space and time is but an illusion, lol. I like the prequel being used to expand worlds more and expand the canon more, especially when it comes to hopping planes of existence. 

Is The Empty really the big villain, or Chuck? I personally think so, and I personally think that this will help funnel some stuff into a continuation. 

“What about Destiel” yes what about Destiel? That’s a continuation problem but one that I know Jackles and Dee and whoever else will be involved will ultimately tackle as well. I may have more faith and optimism than others, but that’s because I know from past experiences from SPN that I won’t be burned no matter what happens — so if you need me to clown for you, I can! 

What about the Akrida? Do they just stop at this place? Why this particular storyline? What’s going on? We already have alternates to our own timeline that is the Akrida did not finish off our Men of Letters, Baby got into John’s hands via a car dealership (well, according to Chuck anyway), John didn’t know about hunting in our world, etc etc. 

So what else is different? Will they see OUR world? Who is dead, who is alive? Is Chuck gonna send them to other places too?

Only time will tell I guess! 

Time to light those manifestation candles for season 2 and a continuation! 

[angelsdean]

i know we destiel truth about jensen in spnwin (something i think we should keep doing until they take the clown noses off us) but it is kind of crazy jensen saw the ending dabb wrote the finale that was about it ultimately being "about the brothers and blood family" (also bobby but. thats the only concession he makes towards non-blood family) and went. no actually. blood family and chosen family are equally important. and put jack and bobby in spnwin and said he was looking for family (cas).

literaaally. jensen has always been a fan of the show becoming more ensemble cast focused and examining the importance of relationships beyond sam and dean. he frequently cites the s8 purgatory arc as one of his faves and it's not lost on me that those scenes are some of the only ones in the whole show where the brothers are separated for an extended period of time and dean gets to focus on developing other relationships: his friendship with benny and devotion to cas.

jensen's also always praising the guest stars. and during a con when a bunch of them impromptu got on stage together he was like "now THIS is what i call a panel!" (totally throwing shade on the fact that he always has to either do solo panels or panels with jared. at every freaking con. like!!! can we get some Variety?!)

but yeah he loves the winchester's extended family. he loves the found family theme. and spnwin was SO focused on those themes. it was never the "john and mary show" as haters would like to say. anyone who actually watched it knows it was focused on the core FOUR (lata, carlos, john, and mary) with supporting characters like millie, ada, and samuel. it was about friendship and family and love and rejecting the idea that you have to go it alone / can't ask for help or support from those around you. it was such a love letter to what spn prime had tried to be about but which got slashed in that god-awful finale. truly jensen saw that finale script and immediately started getting the gears in motion to undo it (as much as he could). like spnwin was announced so soon after the show ended. not even a full year. he was like "WE HAVE WORK TO DO."

And he was so excited to have as many spn prime actors come back. I'm forever sad it got canceled due to the CW slashing all their shows and didn't get to move somewhere else due to the writers strike. Truly bad timing all around. Because I know that had it continued we would've seen SO many more fan fave characters return, including Cas. And very likely would have gotten the "reboot" / destiel reunion via spnwin.

[noybusiness]

I had been just beginning to wondering if I should ask about the next review but there it was; thank you so much for keeping these up!

Interesting that you talk about John in relation to the "things we do for love" remark; another comment I saw after the episode aired was about how the parallel was with Mary in SPN making a deal with Azazel to let him see Sam in exchange for bringing John back to life.

Like I said, the sexual assault parallel to possession is even more clear when discussion Mary's possession.

And with the Akrida stingers, there's a physical assault involved that leaves a mark.

It's a valid choice either way, but I'm glad Rockin' Roxy chose to remember the truth, 'cause that's what I would do. Too bad Roxy never got to help them confront the Akrida Queen like she says here. I guess it's related to The Winchesters not getting more episodes in the back half like they'd planned.

Also love the matter-of-fact non-judgemental way it's established that she had a girlfriend. Despite being set in the '70s, The Winchesters is much better about inclusion than SPN. Which given that Jensen is a producer and has talked about this, I think puts paid to any conspiracy theories about him being responsible for homophobic undertones in the original show.

If Jack Wilcox's plan had gone ahead, John's body would be talking in that awful attempt at a Southern accent. Shudder. (I'm very much from the North, but I could tell that was fake.) Though I do kind of morbidly wish someone would write a fic where it had worked.

Do we think Kyle was already possessed by the Akrida when he first appeared or that they did it because of his connection to Mary? I tend to think the latter.

Would have been nice to see more of Tony and Anton if the show had been renewed. Maybe see one of Lata and Tony's dream dates get interrupted like her meditation in a previous episode and her being cranky about it.

I suppose if John and Mary had known more about golems they might have tried to track down whom it really belonged with, if that person was still alive or had surviving family.

John and Mary need to work on their poker faces if they're going to stay in this business.

The Akrida possessing Kyle not feeling anything when it makes Kyle stab himself is a bit inconsistent with the one in the trunk in "Reflections" having been successfully tortured by Samuel for information. I suppose the latter could have been pretending to feel pain to lure Samuel into a trap, but the episode in question never established that.

I first saw Charles Shaughnessy, the actor playing Jack Wilcox, when I was a kid, as the titular vampire in the Disney movie Mom's Got a Date with a Vampire, starring Caroline Rhea, who was also Aunt Hilda in Sabrina the Teenage Witch, which Mom and I were big fans of at the time. He's also been Victor Cassadine in General Hospital recently, which I fast forward through for certain plotlines (I really liked its spinoff Port Charles back in the day, because it was a supernatural soap opera along the lines of Dark Shadows, which I always enjoyed in re-runs as a kid).

Mary and John hating being left to research is funny af to me.

That reminds me of a stand-out scene in the previous episode: "I did not expect something called hunting to involve so much reading." Millie and John, as we see in Buffy and Angel, 90% of slaying is research. So you better get used to it.

I also really want to see what's in John's file. It's a bit odd that they make him sound like such a delinquent when Betty was dating him and presumably working towards a career in the police at the same time. And don't really specify what he did. Fights? Vandalism and destruction of property? Surely not breaking and entering or theft?

Wonder if Jack Wilcox defected to the Brits in SPN?

Come to think of it, we have to wonder in general what happened to him and Dorothea and his plan in the SPN timeline. Although if it's the specific SPNWIN dimension the Akrida like to target before anywhere else, then Dorothea would likely not have become comatose. And if "poking around in their business" meant using Akrida in his experiments on humans, did they ever get bad enough for him to be booted from the MOL in that timeline?

This might be the most clear indication of who Carlos was before the Winchesters, the version Samuel was mentioning when talking about them a few ep ago. The lone wolf version, the impulsive one, the not getting close to ppl one. Im very happy they've changed, i think they're happier like this.

I definitely think Carlos would agree, with their references to the others being their family and "I'll miss us" they've been the most explicit about it out of the four. It would have been nice to get more of that from all four of them if the show had continued.

Ep 10... oh boy theres a lot to say with this one.

We begin with a nice twist. The woman needing help is Akrida and the victim is the other woman who's stopped to help. Since I've recently been reminded of it, this set up instantly made me think of Sam.meeting Cole for the 1st time, but in that the one flatlined actually needed help.

The Akrida committed to the acting I see.

God the actresses did such a good job raising the tension

LOVE seeing Millie do more handywork around. We dont have nearly enough of her getting into machinery

Mary and John hating being left to research is funny af to me.

Congrats Mary for getting into college and I like that John is actually happy for her, even ribbing her a bit. Love that dynamic actualy.

"Normal life will have to wait another day" thay cut deep fellas ngl. Mainly because i would argue its exactly what Sam and Dean told themselves to put off actually getting to do anything they wanted. And we have this exact sentiment echoed 5 min later by Carlos for why they need to break up with Anton (cant afford to with the fate of the world on their shoulders). The fact that both of these are accompanied by Dean's monologue about hunting and happy endings? Very very relevant to Dean and the life he led. But more importantly, the "how far will I go to get it" echoes back a few.more things amd makes it almost ominous. We'll come back to this when we meet Mr Sheffield (i dont remmeber the characters name rn, will use it later when they say it) since the dark meaning to Dean's words is highlighted by his story.

This might be the most clear indication of who Carlos was before the Winchesters, the version Samuel was mentioning when talking about them a few ep ago. The lone wolf version, the impulsive one, the not getting close to ppl one. Im very happy they've changed, i think they're happier like this.

Oh noooo, I forgot we have Roxy here 🥲 this'll hurt.

John and Mary see a tea set and alphabetized books out: now thats truly disturbing behaviour

John and Mary any other time: eh, thats normal

I live for the chaotic pair these 2 make together

Why tf does he still have the key if they threw him.out of the MOL? Then again, considering the many issues with the MOL, this is only a mildly annoying thing.

Ah yes, hunters are apes commentary, ffs what even started this bullshit feud between hunters and MOL?? It was there on Samuel's side too, and we even see Henry go with that particular opinion...

Sooo, either Jack was really the one experimenting on monsters or that actually was Hobbes' job, regardless we know what that turned into - not just the various bodyguards that our scooby gang has encoutered thus far, but the more insidious uses too like the monsters Cuthbert Sinclaire reprogramms or the manipulation of Mrs Butters or even Mary's own brainwashing. Safe to say all this send my mind to Naomi and how heaven has a very similar approach to keeping their angels in check. Fitting then that it's the Winchester side of the family that is MOL legacy with the Campbell side being the hunters family qho tends to go for a more straightforward will just eliminate the threat vibe (more hell aligned u could say). "A lobotomy makes most monsters subservient *wink*" he says and I cannot not be filled with revulsion on multiple layers. Including the actual issue with lobotomies generally and how their extended "use" was due to a fraud profitting off of people... yeaaaa all the red flags with Jack/Porter here. But also in general it goes back to the type of MOL we have in SPN, the exact kind that JAck/Porter is are the ones still alive, who have very little actual care of who they harm in their scientific pursuit.

Clear alarm bells sounding when askes about Henry, he has a very clear tell.

Hint hint nudge nudge about Jack/Porters lack of family

You know the thing that actually annoys me about people like Jack/Porter? The fact that if he'd applied his knowledge to actually get ppl depossessed he could've actually done something helpful, that would save ppl, but nope, instead he focused everything into his fixation and inability of letting go. To everyones detriment.

Well, Roxy's motel room reminds me of several times we've seen Dean in similar places... especially after the Mark got bad.

Roxy breaks my heart. Everytime.

And we have another instance of possession being portrayed as the violation it actually is. SPN had a few moments of showing this, most notably with Sam and Lucifer, but we've rarely had such an indepth showing of exactly how someone no longer possessed is coping. The only other ones I can remember clearly delving into are Jeffrey in s7 and Nick in s14, but in both those cases, Jeffrey and Nick were more akin toa depiction of Stockholm Syndrome or at the very least a dependence had been created having been possessed so long. Which is in itself a bit problematic a message to send tbh, but Roxy meanwhile is the opposite. Not only does she not want the Akrida back, she actively is trying to deny it ever having happened initially and she def doesnt want to be reminded of it.

Ironic that it's Carlos who says the forgetting isnt working for Roxy... considering

I also adore the parallel made between Jack/Porter and Lata in this episode? Like they both have that scientific curiosity that can become really dangerous (as seen with Jack) but unlike Jack, Lata actually wants to help people so she uses what she knows (just as much a type of brainwashing technique as Jack/Porters lobotomy fyi) to offer someone help. But! Lata asks for Roxy's consent and is upfront, where Jack/Porter is lying and manipulating and taking foe himself.

Mary's instant red flag reading of Jack/Porter for the win, but she should've listened to her instincts faster. She believes next to nothing of his words. I love her so much.

I love the round table Arkida scene... its so much fun to watch. Ironic that the Akrida call hunters pests... also yay Dean!

The fact that Jack/Porter is so so pissed off is his own downfall tbh. The bitter comments fucked up his facade.

Tonyyyyy yessss. Also Lata and Tony yaaay

I love how absolutely huge gossip queens both Lata and Carlos are.

I also love Carlos' little notepad during the scene with Roxy.

The description of her possession is way to visceral fuck I fogot how hard to watch this was. And how much it echoes to asault. Not even echoes tbh considering we have a clearer scene relating to sexual assault when Jack/Porter tries to have Dorothea possess Mary so thw comparison of possession to assault is very much there this episode.

Wonder if Jack Wilcox defected to the Brits in SPN? And began what would later be Lady Bevell's expertise? The fact that he even put on a British accent def is meant to remind us of Bevell and the Brits.

God Mary and John are obvious af that they suspect shit ... ffs kids!

Carlos continues to be the one that actually uncovers key info.

Aww, Carlos and Lata are so so kind and comforting with Roxy. I love them so much.

Im so proud of Roxy, but what I genuinely love about how the ep was written is that even if she'd have gone along with the erasing of her memory, it still would've been a valid way for her to move on. Like this it obviously works two fold in somewhat convincing Carlos they also should take a leap of faith that alls gonna be well with Anton, but its set up in such a way that regardless of Roxy's choice at the end, Roxy's own wellbeing was all that mattered however that looked. I can appreciate the nareative not ramming a specific interpretation down our throats.

Ah, yes, wartime decisions excusing the means... it nearly never actually applies tho, Jack. Tho I will say it's very satisfying having it be said to John who in SPN would use this exact rethoric for a while slew of shitty choices.

Now I wont get into the whole issue with the golem being used in this ep and specifically how they kill the golem - others have said far more better informed stuff on it (shoutout to @endofthebookpod fantastic episode discussion) and I do have a plethora of issues with it - what I do wanna say on the subject tho is that at leasr insofar as Jack is concerned it makes sense that he'd steal and use a golem for his own benefit (similar to how the nazi did in 8x13). The actual problem with this is how the writers chose to tackle dealing with the golem here. Because ultimately the golem is used as a weapon by Jack, just as all his lobotomised monsters were. But the ep chosing to not clarify a few things and deciding to burn the golem??? Not good fellas, not fucking good at all.

I do appreciate John's resilience in fighting the golem tho.

Like I said, the sexual assault parallel to possession is even more clear when discussion Mary's possession.

Gruesome death for Jack tho, I will say.

"Things we do for love"?!?! John Winchester I will murder you! If Mary doesnt do it first for u even suggesting that. I do apprwciate still seeing glimpses of SPN!John even now, 10 ep into it. Because for all that people can change, its very very hard to do so and its a slow process.

Thank you Mary for shutting it down immediately. High hopes that this low key promise they made here spells good things for their future. I do hope.

I also love that Lata explains why Roxy wanting to erase her traumatic memories isnt the same as Carlos avoiding dealing with his intimacy issues. But I also love that Carlos feels safe actually confiding in Lata, for all that they banter and shit talk they're each others person.

Perfect timing on the Tragic Haircut lady. Also yea, it def is a tragic haircut.

Noooo, Akrida!Kyle is here. Using Johns past against him is smart but also i need to read that file.

I will say, I never read Millie at the end as believing that John did anything like Ive seen in a couple of other places mentioned. I just saw it as her being a. Shocked about a dead body b. Shocked about John holding a dead body and c. The police being on her heels with john holding a dead body.

But that's all for today folks. Next up, ep 11. Slowly but surely making it through the show.

[spnwin-reader]

SPNwin is Dean asking the question: what if John and Mary could SEE each other, I mean REALLY see each other?

In SPNprime, they didn't just hide from one another. They weren't allowed to really see one another. The machinations of the story and Heaven stepped in to erase it even when the did. The machinations of story also prevented Henry from getting back to John, to reveal to him his past.

John was in the dark for a long time. Here...inSPNwin...

JOHN: Well, you're not exactly who I thought you were.

MARY: Neither are you.

///

This story would be challenged, perhaps BROKEN by the revelation of a Cupid (which represents limerence, not lasting love), and terminate in a challenge to the lovers, asking if they're even real.

The existential crises in the SPNwin narrative might look more like this:

DEAN (15x02): Nothing about our lives is real. Everything that we've lost, everything that we are is because of Chuck. 

They would be horrified and challenged by it, as Dean was in season 15 when he looked at Cas in light of God's newly revealed machinations.

[drsilverfish]

What’s with all the claws? The Winchesters

There are a lot of talons and claws and tentacles and spines in The Winchesters monster-parade so far (episodes 1-6)

Is that just because monsters are generally claws-and-teethy or is there a symbolic function to all these claws in the narrative?

In the pilot we see the long talons of what? An Akrida, the Akrida leader, a Wicked Witch of the West-esque entity?

In SPNWin 1x01 Pilot we meet a Loup-garou with its very long werewolfy talons:

Image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/Loup-Garou 

It was placed as a guard by the Men of Letters over the mysterious, trans-dimensional box which can entrap demons, and, apparently, the alien Akrida.

In SPNWin 1x02 Teach Your Children Well, La Tunda has tentacle-vine talons which seek to suck the life-force from her victims:

She is an abusive parent feeding on the life-force of rebellious children, and her lair is other-dimensional (like the Akrida’s, who come from another world).

Second image credit: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/File:LaTundaVines.png 

In SPNWin 1x03 You’re Lost Little Girl, the Bori Baba emerges, talons first, from its portal-sack into a child’s bedroom:

It also seems to feed particularly on children and young people (judging from the number of stuffed toys in its lair) and its sack is a portal to another alternate realm/ dimension.

SPNWin 1x04 Masters of War has the God Mars-Neto as the monster, so no physically manifest talons there. But the theme of an alternate reality is present, as Mars Neto creates an illusionary return to Vietnam, within which he traps John and Carlos, forcing them to relive and re-experience the traumatic effects of the war.

In SPNWIn 1x05 Legend of a Mind we learn that the Akrida have stingers which they inject into some people’s brains in order to control them:

This appears symbolic of the hold childhood trauma has on the mind (a claw/ spine/ talon/ tentacle of poison, hooked into the self) given that we explore Mary’s childhood trauma at the hands of her hunter parents (with the help of Ada’s Djinn son as a healing mind-guide) after she is brain-injected with an Akrida stinger herself.

And in SPNWin 1x06 Art of Dying Darla is found dead in a barn, mutilated by claw marks, and Carlos finds a claw embedded in the ceiling. The team initially think a werewolf is responsible (this theme of misrecognition of monsters is a recurring one; Mary thought that the monster in 1x03 Teach the Children Well was a shapeshifter). Another taloned creature is responsible, a Soucouyant:

All of which makes me think of the expression, “to get your claws into someone”, meaning to gain a controlling hold over them.  

Psychologically speaking, The Winchesters is exploring the way trauma, in particular the trauma parents visit on their children, gets its claws into the psyche. The claws, talons and tentacles of the monsters symbolise the dark hold that such abuse has on the mind.  

In terms of the recurring themes of alternate dimensions and misrecognition, that may be symbolic of the larger frame of the narrative (which, as I’ve explored in earlier 1x06 meta) might suggest that the entirety of The Winchesters is actually taking place in Dean’s mind, in a liminal state between dying and rebirth, where he works through the main themes of his life; parent-imposed trauma being fundamental.   

[curioussubjects]

Ok so I have some spnwin-spn connection spec I wanna share with y'all from back when @alwaysanoriginal were spiraling over some interview about The Winchesters (as we do). The second to last question is about John's journal being created, which of course made me think of plot hole vampmimes. Of course.

Or maybe not so plothole-y?

That was mostly a joke, though I did hope tonight was going to maybe for the lolz address that. Well, little did I know because that old convo continued with this:

DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING YOU WATCHED TONIGHT

DOES IT

Char, then, decided to come for me in the night and point out that the Running on Empty montage in 19 has some pretty choice scenes featuring Changing Channels, Wayward Sisters and the AU rift, Dean time traveling, and The Heroes' Journey (which I always argued was essentially the intended finale metaphorically).

Side note: sorry to expose y'all to my private ravings lol

A lot of this actually comes back to a point Billie made in s15 about Chuck building reality with himself at the center to keep it ticking. So how can you possibly beat him? By letting him think he won. I can't help but remember that delightful line from Dean in s12: "‘Cause we’re not trapped out here with you. You’re trapped out here with us." You know, that one time Dean and Sam pulled a death gambit to escape a black ops site.

But back to The Winchesters: last week we had Carlos refusing to play Loki's game (a god who can affect reality, or one's perception thereof) and winning. But to do so, he had to put his life on the line. He had to be willing to lose everything. By the way, I am once again feeling very emotional about Carlos saying he sacrificed everything for hunting, but he gained so much more because that's it! That's the thing! So yeah...cue Carlos singing Hard Times Come Again No More to his family.

This week John is the one with the seemingly inescapable fate of death (courtesy of vampires because of course), and while he doesn't tap out of the game, he realizes he knows nothing about the context of what he saw. He only got half the story, and the rest was up to him. It's appropriate, too, that this week we get another Supernatural classic with Mary reassuring John that they will find another way. And yeah, John does and wins.

And, I mean, if we're talking fate and god and gambles, why not remember a nifty piece of advice Sam and Dean received from Fortuna in The Gamblers: “Don’t play his game. Make him play yours.”

My point is if we look at 19 and 20 much like we would a vision from an amulet, none of the plot of Supernatural needs to change. It's fated. But as Millie says, and John says, and Dean say: fate is what you make it. And if The Winchesters is about how Sam and Dean became the Winchesters, then what else is this show but the context we've been missing all along.

(send this man to stan jail tbh)

[also what is more Winchester stupid than the cosmic consequences of saving your family...like...say...releasing the Darkness or...causing an Akrida infestation...though who knows that could've been on purpose for reasons. I'm putting nothing past spnwin.]

Don't ask me how Dean goes from pulling a death gambit to get into heaven to time travelling to tweak with his parents' past. We're through the looking glass here people and we'll simply have to wait and see -- but the puzzle is for sure getting less mysterious. Something free will, knowledge, family, and Growth, something. Therapy. You know, The Winchesters.

Or I'm totally off the mark and I'll have egg for face who's to say, but for now, as a treat, I'm feeling very