#when you know Sephiroth doesn't appear at all in the og during the part the remake adapt it's hysterical

[icharchivist]

god i forgot the very first scene of Sephiroth in the remake has him saying this shit

that's Advent Children level of toxic ex, poor Cloud

[phantomyre]

following the train of thought that EC-vincent is a different timeline from rebirth-vincent, does that suggest that the entirety of EC could be just /one particular timeline's series of events/ instead of The History? or is this divergence just for vincent?

for example- does it make sense to consider EC-glenn to be different from rebirth-glenn & etc etc?

(wanted to get your thoughts if you had any)

Hey there, and thank you for the question! I do have a few thoughts on it, albeit I try to approach it based on what we've been given across all recent information so it might sound a tad generic. Long post... (sorry, I got carried away lol)

[Preface] As is already obvious, it would appear that of all the main party members, Vincent's the only odd-ball out in terms of his appearance. He doesn't 'belong' to any timeline in EC unlike all the other characters who are from Remake/Intergrade/Rebirth. And I think this is for a reason. I've seen the excuse of perhaps Vincent was just modeled a long time ago, but frankly I don't think the dev team are that shallow. They've had Vincent's model for about a couple years, give or take, or at the very least his design. And they know fans would pick apart character appearances and inconsistencies if something (like Vincent) was out of place. And yet they chose to go out of their way with a totally different take than what we see in Rebirth. It would have been a lot easier to port in Vincent's Rebirth design into EC, but Nomura decided to painstakingly create Vincent from scratch for EC. What's more, we also get a completely different Galian Beast, which is also another extensive process to create. Now granted-- perhaps what we see in EC was what we were going to get in Rebirth but got scrapped, and Nomura may have been so married to Vincent's EC design that he wanted to include it instead. However, if there's anything we have learned about the FF7 dev team (and Nomura), it's that there's always some nuanced reason behind it aside from 'I spent so much time on this; just add it already'. Anyone who has been in the FF7 fandom for some length of time will know you can't always trust what the devs say 100%. They are artists, and they like to be a bit mysterious. All this is to say... I just think there's a potential lore reason for why they decided to give Vincent this unique treatment of being time-line vague. Rebirth has shown us that there isn't a single timeline but multiple worlds that diverge and merge, depending on the choices being made by those who can affect fate. So at least within Rebirth's 'world', we know that multiple worlds can exist in tandem. This concept isn't exclusive to Rebirth, however. It is also indicated (by Sephiroth) at the very beginning of Ever Crisis...

During special story-based events where a portal is involved, you'll notice that they will always have something along the lines of 'another possibility' being repeated. So in essence, while there's nothing official that states EC is its own world or timeline, we are being told that the Lifestream is capable of weaving many 'possibilities', or alternative worlds. And this is front and center with Ever Crisis and Rebirth. What's more, EC just so happens to line up with the compilation lettering system... AC, BC, CC, DC, EC... Coincidence? For those of us who know OG's story and have played EC, there are a few differences when going through the OG's story. It isn't 1:1, and some things are taken from Rebirth. One might call it abridged. So... is Ever Crisis a separate world/timeline? Maybe. In terms of Glenn, I think it's a bit early to tell because Rebirth essentially gave us a spoiler for what happens to Glenn. But First Soldier's story has yet to conclude. So in terms of Glenn, he's a bit of an outlier. I think we'll have a better answer to that when we get part 3 as I'm sure we'll see him there in some form. Though back to Vincent... While it depends on how one looks at 'worlds' or multi-timelines, I think we can mostly all agree it's not a single world. What causes this to get very convoluted is that we got Vincent who is immortal... there are many ways they could handle him being both immortal and being a part of the Lifestream's system that creates multiple worlds from choices. However, the simplest thing I can think of is that Vincent simply exists outside of time. I feel as though Vincent is described as outside of time, but I could be wrong. All I know is that in BC, Vincent does say 'The passage of time has no meaning to me'. This is going deeper into some other territory but I'll just briefly say that I believe Vincent is incapable of merging with the Lifestream... but that's for a different discussion. And because I think he cannot merge with the Lifestream, he is thus 'outside' of time if that makes sense. TLDR: I think it's very possible EC is meant to be 'another possibility' of another world created by the choices of our protagonists (and by way of logic, the choices we make as gamers). Secondly, I think this curious lack of design cohesion is specifically for Vincent, only. This may have to do with him being immortal and existing (likely) outside of time itself. I think this is their way of communicating (as all artists do) Vincent's identity to us without really divulging it. I wouldn't doubt part 3 will uncover this side of Vincent so that we can come back to EC and see a connection.

[lavellenchanted]

okay I have a bit of a theory that was inspired by your Yuna Aerith parallel gifset, while I immediately thought of Yuna during that scene as well, I didn't really think about it beyond it being a reference until seeing your gifset again just now. A lot of people think there are parallels between ff7/ffx already and that maybe the games are connected in some loose way. And thinking about Yuna's story... how the game revolves around her intending to make this big sacrifice in order to save everyone until we find another way and are able to put an end to things for good without her needing to die (a better ending than her sacrificing herself and restarting the cycle). Not to mention other parallels between her and Aerith in general. And a lot of people are unsure if the ending of og FF7 is actually a "good" ending. And I am now wondering if Aerith's lifestream dance scene was more than just a fun reference and it was actually more of an intentional nod to her and Yuna's similar stories and maybe a hint to the fact that she doesn't need to die for us to win in the end (ofc Aerith already meeting her fate in rebirth has happened, but with the other worlds etc we know things can potentially be altered somehow in game 3 and that we may have saved a version of Aerith already). Perhaps this time we can get an even better outcome. Defying fate/destiny is very relevant to Yuna's story and is a heavy theme in this re-trilogy which I would like to see have a purpose beyond faking us out. I feel the direct comparison between her and Aerith does potentially feel more intentional along that line of thinking

apologies that got quite lengthy and disjointed but hopefully made some sense hah

That's a really good catch! I think as well it's interesting to note that as well as Yuna not having to sacrifice herself, they also brought back Tidus at the end FFX-2 - albeit only in the hidden ending that you have to 100% complete the game to get. So clearly SE aren't against bringing back characters that appear to be gone for good.

I definitely think that Aerith is going to live at the end of Part 3 - the lifestream dance is obviously a nod to Yuna, but in terms of FF7's narrative I think it was also deliberately meant to show is that Aerith can and is learning to control the lifestream while she's alive, so she doesn't need to die to be able to manipulate the lifestream to help defeat Meteor.

I'm absolutely convinced we'll get a payoff to the idea of defying fate, just because otherwise it would be really bad writing. They very carefully set it up in Remake with Aerith and Nanaki having full knowledge of the future, and Cloud having fractured visions of it and have then built on it further in Remake; both through Marlene having gained that knowledge from Aerith, and using the interludes with Zack to establish a) that characters we expected to die could survive and b) the rainbow motif to show when fate's been changed, a motif that then appears when Cloud blocks Sephiroth's sword and in both scenes when he's holding Aerith and she wakes up. To suddenly undo that in Part 3 and return to the status quo of the OG would be a complete narrative letdown and anti-climax after everything they've teased, and I think the devs are better than that.

The OG ending is a complicated one and was always intended to be bittersweet, but it's telling that in an interview in the Rebirth Ultimania, Kitase said that he hopes all the characters find happiness at the end of Retrilogy, implying that he doesn't consider that they did at the end of the OG. And if you want everyone to have a happy ending . . . well, the characters that had the most obviously unhappy ending of all of them were Aerith, who died, and Cloud, who was broken by her death.

Not to mention that Nomura said in the same interview that Kitase asked for "a very major something" that wasn't in the OG for Part 3, and I really don't see what else that would be except a ending in which Aerith, and possibly Zack, both get to live and Cloud and Aerith are reunited.

[quartercirclejab]

in the original Final Fantasy VII, Cloud Strife didn't have a theme of his own, per se. one might say the "Main Theme of FFVII" was meant to serve that purpose, but i feel that this is overlooking the possibility that Cloud's lack of his own dedicated theme was intentional. every other member of the party has one, which usually reprises for moments of key development. their themes reflect their character, their hopes and dreams- but Cloud's grasp on his own identity is tenuous. as the game progresses and his mental pillars of sand come down, he loses any real sense of who he is, and struggles to rediscover it

in that sense, Cloud could actually be said to have two themes: "Who Are You", the mysterious theme that accompanies Cloud's moments of confusion when he encounters his buried subconscious, and the companion piece, "Who Am I", the theme that plays during Cloud's mental breakdown.

"Who Am I" is something of a dark reprise of "Main Theme of FFVII", which lends credence to the theory that the main theme is, in fact, Cloud's theme, but i think it might be more accurate to say the main theme is the theme of Cloud's false identity. it's a sweeping, bombastic anthem of heroic adventure, encompassing all the traits Cloud wishes he had.

this view also makes sense when you consider that the moment Cloud gets lost in the Lifestream and his false identity collapses is also the moment "Main Theme of FFVII" disappears from the game, to be replaced by "The Great Northern Cave." no more heroism, no more pretending... just dread, and a great cosmic sword of damocles hanging over the earth. even when Cloud regains his sense of self and returns to the party, "Main Theme of FFVII" doesn't return with him. he's not running from reality anymore, there's no more hiding under a false sense of bravado. the reckless courage of facing the bitter truth is all that remains.

for Remake, Nobuo Uematsu wrote a new vocal piece called "Hollow." while it's not explicitly stated to serve as such, the new piece is pretty clearly meant to be Cloud's theme, putting his feelings of uncertainty and fear into words and melancholy guitar chords

it's a little on the nose, i think- part of what made the OG's twist so impactful was that Cloud really wasn't particularly uncertain or afraid. up until he begins to directly encounter Sephiroth, he doesn't seem bothered by the gaps in his memory, his unexplained headaches, or the sudden flashbacks that accompany them. his fall from sanity is incredibly rapid, which makes it all the more shocking

Remake has changed this dynamic by having Sephiroth appear earlier than he did in the original. his more aggressive approach to exploiting Cloud's confusion has lead to Cloud's characterization being much less confident in his own mind, and the certainty of his reality

"Hollow" reflects this new interpretation of Cloud, as does "Hollow Skies", the instrumental version that plays in some parts of FFVII Remake's overworld. it's a mournful, lilting piece that tells us much about where Cloud's head is at right know: he knows something's wrong with him, but he can't articulate what it is, and the only solid ground he can really find is in placing his trust in someone he knew a long time ago

[silver-wield]

FF7R: The price of strength

Siddown. Let’s talk about this because frankly I’m worried about yall’s education.

The wording of this part of the story summary is as particular as the one using “they lose Jessie right before their eyes” later during the pillar chapter to indicate that Jessie actually died, whereas “a seriously injured Biggs” didn’t.

Because word choice matters.

The title first: since I totally forgot to mention it originally and had to edit this. 

The price of strength has parallels to the price of freedom, which on the surface is a Zack reference. I can already hear the romantically motivated screaming this is proof. However, the price of strength relates to Cloud and his knowledge that he’ll degrade because that’s what president Shinra said would happen at the end of chapter 7. That’s what the title’s referring to. The price of strength is Cloud’s degradation, while also being another Zack hint at the price he paid for his and Cloud’s strength.

Back to the rest of it.

So, Aerith “ambushes” Cloud. Do...yall know what ambush means?

Okay? We good? An ambush isn’t cute. Now, put it in context of Cloud, who literally swung his sword at Biggs because he thought it was an enemy lying in wait to ambush him. It’s not a positive way to describe what Aerith did.

Cloud’s on edge when Aerith appears because he’s too used to having to fight anything that approaches him in a stealthy manner. The blocking is an OG reference to the forest dream, but the story elements are different this time. Cloud spent the day with Aerith being bossed about. He stayed because she wouldn’t tell him how to get home and as much as he hated that she was right, he would’ve gotten lost.

He hasn’t just come from the temple of the Ancients where he hurt her, gave Sephiroth the black materia or went through any of the previous location events to build up a rapport between them. He has literally just met her that day. He’s known her for around 12 hours. They’re not even friends at this point.

Aerith appears because she wants to spend more time together. It doesn’t say anything about Cloud wanting to spend more time with her. Cloud wants to go home. People keep on about it like he doesn’t wanna leave. He does. Cloud wants to go home.

So, Aerith’s sudden appearance has put him on edge. Let’s take a look at that, since we know for a fact Cloud is suffering from anxiety—or did yall miss the actual meaning of Hollow, too? 

Sounds like Cloud. He’s constantly prepping for hidden danger. He’s always five seconds away from reaching for that sword hilt. He’s always checking the area for danger. He’s also extremely irritable a lot of the time. He was way more snarky and sarcastic to Aerith than he was to Barret during chapter one and he couldn’t stand Barret in chapter one. In OG his catchphrase was “Not interested” but in Remake, he’s heard saying “Seriously?” way more often, which he says because he’s annoyed about something. Yeah, it’s cultural slang for the times because we all say it, but in Cloud’s case he says it because he’s irritated/annoyed (and it’s adorable and I love that he says it and yall better thank Wedge for that because he taught it to Cloud)

Onto more medical stuff.

Cloud has less physical symptoms of anxiety, though many of them only happen during his PTSD attacks. He’s seen sweating, trembling, looking pale, breathing hard, clutching his head and we know for a fact he has trouble sleeping.

Now we’ve got that cleared up, let’s head back to the rest of the story summary. 

As Aerith walks on ahead, it triggers the Jenova vision, and Cloud’s heart skips a beat because of the vision. We don't get to see the contents of the vision, though, so can't say for certainty what it is.

One other common symptom of anxiety is an abnormally increased heart rate, also known as heart palpitations. Heart palpitations can feel like your heart is racing, pounding, or fluttering. You may also feel as though your heart is skipping a beat.

So Cloud, in the middle of a PTSD/Jenova attack, gets a heart palpitation, which is a typical symptom of anxiety, which he suffers from. It’s not related to any romantic feelings because Cloud doesn’t have romantic feelings for Aerith here and since he’s not meta and doesn’t get echoes of OG to feel anything that OG Cloud might have felt, this is just him reacting to anxiety triggering vision of a presumed death. It’s a build up, a step along a series of events that leads to Cloud’s mental breakdown. It’s yet another moment where Sephiroth—through Jenova—is trying to goad a reaction from Cloud, but again, he’s mistimed things (like in chapter 2 when he put his hand on Aerith’s shoulder to freak Cloud out) because Cloud at this point doesn’t have feelings for Aerith. 

For anyone who isn’t clear on this, Jenova can prompt future visions. Lucretia got visions too while she was pregnant with Sephiroth. She saw meteor fall nearly 30 years before any of this.

So, why does he cry? Oh, I dunno, maybe it’s got something to do with a senseless death? Zack’s? Y’kno, his best friend? Cloud’s been conscious for five days by this point and everything in his recent past is about loss. It's possible the flash was Aerith's death, but we see all of those, so why hide this one? The last major death that affected him was Zack’s, and this moment could be where Cloud partly softens his attitude towards her on the trip through the collapsed freeway. But, that doesn’t mean he wants to hang, which is why he says no when she says to take a break. But then, she talks about her boyfriend, who she obviously still misses and is in love with and this makes Cloud feel sorry for her. He relaxes his guard. Thinks that maybe he’s been too harsh to her. He’s not gonna see her again anyway, and then the moment—literally the moment—he sees Tifa in that chocobo carriage, Aerith’s an afterthought. 

And then later on, just in case anyone thought that story summary line held any kind of meaning, we see Chocobo Sam using it, which totally undermines any kind of importance it might have held. If Chocobo Sam’s heart can skip a beat, then it’s not a big deal, even if some people held those words in a romantic context. And the fact you only get this dialogue from Sam by doing his sidequests, getting Cloud’s canon outfit—which matches Tifa’s—and actually bother going to find him to chat, shows the devs were already expecting people to latch onto this phrase as something special and hid it for everyone who actually bothers to play the game properly so they could find it and enjoy the shade. Not to mention Jessie says it, too, and Jules, so it really doesn't have much impact when everyone says it.

Annnd finally, even if people do still wanna insist, those words are literally part of the same sentence that mentions Sector 7, so even if you wanted to put romantic coding on it, Cloud’s heart is more likely to have skipped a beat anticipating getting back home to where Tifa’s waiting for him.

Basically, no matter which way you slice it, that summary isn’t about love in connection to Aerith. Hell, it’s not about love at all, but more of Cloud’s anxiety and y’kno, plot stuff. 

Not to mention Aerith is literally trying not to cry, which if I remember rightly, isn’t romantically motivated context wise. 

[icharchivist]

part of what makes fic so interesting to me is that it’s like… supplemental, rather than interchangeable with canon? like, even fix-it fics are a /response/ to what happens in canon. an alternate take rather than a total replacement. so fundamentally they’re the kind of thing that exists and plays with the context of the original media. so a lot of fanfiction works really well as good fanfiction, but if you suddenly canonize it and make an original thing, it’s suddenly a lot less enjoyable because it can’t use that context it had to make its story work. that’s my two cents at least

100% agreed, totally

I feel like... it's also canon imposing a reading too which doesn't have to be there, while fanfic can do the job.

like i really think a lot about the ff7r in this because in its position as a remake (ie, supposedly exploring the plot of the 1997's game), for a lot of people it's a replacement to the OG. Some additions can be felt as great character exploration! but some others additions, especially those rooted in fanservice (like making Sephiroth appear a LOT during the Midgar portion of the game) end up just.... being wrong. Like it's not the Sephiroth we actually learnt about.

and it's its own hell because as the remakes were designed to be 3 games, they really wanted to engage people by challenging that, perhaps, things aren't going to happen the same way, and from what i've heard even Rebirth, ending on the City of the Ancients scene (you know the one) left the scene ambiguous specifically so the player would feel the need to buy the third game just to know "so they did it or they didn't?"

and it sucks because it's canon, for crying out loud. It's rewritting a story from 1997 and calling it a "remake" so some people are going to go into the remake thinking they're getting the 1997's experience, but instead of trusting its story the game is obsessed about surprising its audience, which is. wild!! to do about one of the most beloved and well known game in gaming.

and it really removes so much of the wiggle room fanon can give like. There's extensions i really like and all but from what i've seen of Rebirth there's an extensively long section where they take a vacation break when they drop by the Costa Del Sol and it's mostly there to advance the romance with the girls (which goes ways farther than it does in the OG because i genuinely think the OG gives you a lot more room to read those as platonic if you don't want to think about the romances, but also kinda take away from hcs you would have about how the romance could go by imposing a clear path about it) and just whyyyy why whywhy--

sorry i'm getting lost in my thoughts everytime and ff7r is so much the example of it that i can't stop thinking about it, but yeah, like. fanfic is great!! it's a reaction to canon but canon doesn't have to live up to fanfic. but when canon undermine its own writing, replace stuff, especially in a way they think would please the fans it just.... feels like it doesn't understand why people were emotional about it to start with yaknow?

mopes.

[mariyekos]

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that the reason they changed who Aerith was supposed to breed with is because they didn't want to deal with the whole bestiality thing. While Remake/Rebirth ARE silly games, there are certain silly things from the original that they took out because they could be seen as "morally questionable" imo, and that feels like one of them. (Note: some of these silly things from the original are replaced by other silly things in Rebirth, which I'm fine with! And this one I'm fine with too, because the idea of Aerith breeding with a non-humanoid is ???. Some silly things make me sigh though.)

From what I understand, Deepground wasn't originally connected to Project G at its conception, but at the end of CC Genesis is picked up by members of Deepground and they end up injecting the Deepground members with Genesis' cells before he runs away. I don't know what this actually does. My memory of Dirge of Cerberus is SUPER shaky.

What's interesting is that in the OG, Hojo wants Aerith to breed with Red because he doesn't think his research can be completed in her lifetime, so he needs more specimens. I always assumed he chose Red because Red is part of a long-lived species, but that might've just been stretching things and he could've done it more to just have Aerith breed with anyone so he could work on future generations, whether that child lived hundreds of years or just a normal lifetime (meaning he'd have to breed the child eventually too...).

In the Remake though, the way Hojo and President talk make it sound like he wants to breed her in case she dies during experimentation or runs away like Ifalna, so they don't run out of viable specimens like they did when Aerith and Ifalna escaped. So, instead of wanting to breed her because the research can't be completed in her lifetime, they want to breed her to have backup if they lose her.

Wanting Project S and Project G to breed with her is probably both to reference CC stuff for people in the know, and maybe because they're still hung up on how JENOVA managed to survive in an Ancient body for so long? So maybe they want to try breeding an Ancient with someone with JENOVA cells because they know JENOVA cells can be passed from mother to fetus, so it would be a good way to get JENOVA cells into an "Ancient" (even if only 1/4). What's interesting here though is...something that's more elaborated on in Rebirth so it'll go in the cut below!

So you mentioned Project G and Project S not being available anymore, even in the original. Yes and no. This paragraph is about the original, though I'll get into how it appears in Rebirth briefly below the cut. Anyway, don't forget that Project S also produced all of the Sephiroth clones you see in the OG (the black robe guys)! Yes Zack and Cloud are the important ones, but Hojo kept on trying with project S even after Sephiroth died. While the whole "injecting unborn children/their mothers with JENOVA cells" part of Project G/S is over, that doesn't mean the test subject don't still exist. They're not in great condition, but they ARE alive. Project G doesn't exist in the original so there's no comparison there.

Now to get into minor Rebirth spoilers, in terms of how it deals with degeneration and not necessarily story events, as well as if project G/S are brought up:

Degeneration in Rebirth is treated like an inevitability for all SOLDIERS. It might not happen right away, but it will happen. This is obviously a huge change from the OG where there was no Project G and no degeneration. I feel...so-so about it.

Anyway back to the breeding thing, it's interesting that they want Aerith to breed with a Project G/S soldier since it seems like Degradation is an inevitability now for everyone with JENOVA cells, so her child probably wouldn't be very long lived, which goes against the idea from the original that they needed her to breed because research probably couldn't be completed in her lifetime. However it does work with the idea that they're just doing it for a replacement in case something happens to Aerith, since those replacements don't necessarily need to be long-lived if they can produce one after the other. That and maybe they think having Ancient genes will counteract the degradation, since JENOVA didn't degrade in the Ancient body. Sephiroth doesn't seem to have degraded either, but I feel like that's due to him being the perfect specimen. That or my headcanon that Sephiroth was degrading, it just started mentally and didn't have a physical component yet. I like to HC that gradually all SOLDIERS will go insane.

In Rebirth, it is revealed that Hojo still has some Sephiroth genetic material that he performed research with. This is the stuff he used to make the black robed men. So that's how project S is still "alive." I'll stop there for now, but if you want more elaboration, I can give some more before getting too spoilery!

i feel like the remake is fucking with me or i don't remember my CC lore but weren't Project G and S specific projects that like, aren't available anymore?

as in, Project G was the whole Angeal/Genesis fiasco and Genesis dragged all of the Soldiers who had G cells with him in his rebellion and by the end of CC only him and Lazard were still alive, and Project S only had Sephiroth and later experiments on Zack and Cloud and then later failed experiments that gave the Remnants?

Hojo is talking about making Aerith reproduce with Soldiers G and S and it's boggling me, this is a remake addition since those Projects only got named in Crisis Core (and also are they doing that to avoid talking about Hojo's bestiality plan for Aerith from the OG?), but i was under the impression that the end of CC showed how both of those projects were failure??

Or, i guess, Genesis being taken to Deep Ground is supposed to imply they restarted experiments based on him??

sorry like Hojo dropped the name of those two projects and it's suddenly so jarring to me, as concepts that were only developed in the prequel originally and seemingly that fell through so that any possible experiment subjects would not be considered viable. Unless Deep Ground ends up being an extension of Project G and S?