#what is it with men and their opinions about elves

[cavegirlpoems]

Further thoughts.

There is a tendency to write settings - particularly for interactive media like ttrpgs, larps, etc - that are essentially gender-blind, where you can create whoever you want without that having an effect on the game. The decision to be gay, or a woman, or trans, or a gay trans woman with pink hair is an aesthetic choice that will not give you a meaningfully different experience in the game.

This rather kneecap's the setting's ability to tell queer stories, imho. If we take it as read that queerness refers to gender- and sexuality-based identities and behaviours that fall outside of the societal norms, then the experience of falling outside those societal norms is (rather tautologically) a key element of queerness.

So, in a completely gender-blind setting, one can't - tautologically - be gender-nonconforming. There is no expectation to conform to. The experience of queerness, of being outside of societal norms, becomes null and void. Such a setting will feature homosexuality, but it won't feature gay pride, and nor will it need to as none of the societal forces that led to the pride movement exist.

This is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, a world where one is not oppressed for one's identity is an enjoyable world to explore for what should be obvious reasons. On the other hand, it becomes impossible to tell (say) a coming-out story in a world where there's no closet to be in to begin with.

There is also the element that whilst a setting may say its gender-blind, it's still written and played in by people from the real world, who still subconsciously inherit real-world biases, and this can be reflected in the world.

While (say) women might have just as much right to political power as men, if in practice the people with political power are disproportionately men, that sexism is still present. Far from removing it, the gender-blindness of the setting simply obfuscates it, and often actively proves an obstacle to addressing it; one cannot call somebody out in character for sexism in a setting where sexism doesn't exist, no matter how sexist they're being.

(Similar biases around sexuality, transness, polyamory, kink, aceness, etc also creep in).

(In many cases, this can also apply to other axes of marginalisation, such as race, etc. However, in a lot of settings this doesn't apply the same way. Many fantasy settings are deeply opinionated about a character's ancestry; see the D&D skull-callipers explaining that elves are just more intelligent and agile than everybody else, and this being a mechanically enforced fact in the world.)

My point, anyway, is that in these cases efforts towards inclusivity can paradoxically erase that which they seek to include. One cannot represent the lived experience of a marginalised identity in a setting that totally denies the existence of that marginalisation.

[thesummerestsolstice]

Only the elves really see Elrond as "half-elven." They focus, of course, on who he is in relation to them. He's sort-of an elf– enough that they can accept him into their society, but not enough to erase his differences. They understand the different parts of him– his propensity to get sick, his elvish-sharp hearing, his need for sleep, his immortality– as "elvish" or "not-elvish." And while they can be rather condescending about anything they see as "not-elvish," they aren't usually very curious.

Most men regard Elrond vaguely as a fae being. This isn't unique to him– much of Middle-Earth's changling and fairy stories were built on the strange human-and-not-human nature of half-elves. Of course, different humans regard them very differently– sometimes with respect, even reverence, believing that "fairies" are beings of great wisdom and knowledge. Others see them with suspicion and fear, viewing them as sources of danger and deception.

To the Numenorians, Elrond is just one of them– a kind of "immortal man." He is like them in several key ways– he gets ill, he needs sleep, he regards the passage of time in a very "human" way. More importantly, he is their kin, a living remnant and reminder of both their mythical founder and non-human blood they share. He acts as a healer and counselor when they need him. This is all well and good until some of them start thinking that if Elrond could make the choice to be immortal, surely they should be able to as well.

The dwarves see Elrond as an elf. They absolutely do not care enough to tell the difference between him and the others. He's immortal, he's always with a bunch of elves. He's an elf.

The Maiar do not really understand what Elrond is, and have kind of defaulting to seeing him as one of them but like, small. Look, they're all uncounted thousands of years old, he's a child to them. They dote on him and think he's adorable, but sometimes forget that he's also part-elf and part-human, and can't just drop his physical form whenever he likes to go be a disembodied spirit in the clouds. Gandalf encourages all their antics. Elrond is working on it.

(Contrary to popular belief, the average hobbit does not have any kind of opinion on Elrond Peredhel. Bilbo Baggins, who lives in his house and has written several long, extremely personal ballads about his family history, is a statistical outlier and should not have been counted.)

[inthehouseoffinwe]

It always gets me that literally *everything* hinged on the Fellowship getting this *right.* All the battles with Morgoth, Sauron, the events of the last Three Ages and beyond.

This was the final chance.

Either they succeed. Or all those battles and all that pain was for nothing, and Middle Earth falls to darkness.

And if ME does. It’s not far fetched to assume Valinor would be next.

-

But like it was always about the value of the little people. A value which historically, most people, the Princes of the First Age most of all, didn’t really… realise.

They dragged everyone into their wars and feuds and at the end of everything, everyone suffered for it.

They were out for themselves, because *they* wanted to be kings and queens, *they* wanted revenge, *they* wanted to go back to the wilds of Endorë and doomed everyone alongside them, cajoling and convincing them until they were riled up and probably not thinking straight.

They had to be right. If the rest of their people suffered for their bad decisions… too bad. There was so much pride and arrogance across the Sindar and Noldor both that their power, the thing that made them so great became their downfall.

The people of the Third Age, men and elves and dwarves, might have been ‘diminished’ but that meant they took time to appreciate their people. It means Aragorn at the Black gate sees there are young men from Rohan who are *terrified*, and entirely genuinely without judgement, allows them to leave. It means he goes around place to place, city to city, getting to know everyone as people. Seeing their value, seeing their worth as equal to his own. And he treats them accordingly as just as important rather than making everything about him.

It’s what allows him to deceive Sauron into thinking he’s acting as his ancestors did, proud and self assured whilst the whole quest and everything he does is about helping Frodo. About making sure he succeeds.

As he tells Frodo. “Deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.” And that’s where these great heroes of the past fell short. For them, especially the elves of the First Age, everything was about valour and glory and victory. Literally Fëanor: ‘our deeds will be a matter of song until the last days of Arda.’

We needed the king who knew what it was to be a ranger, scorned despite being the only thing keeping them alive. The king who was a healer rather than a warlord. The man who only wanted his people safe, would pass all great deeds and live hated and homeless if only they could live without darkness.

The hobbits who were so pure of heart, who found joy in the little things. Even Legolas who would’ve grown up seeing Mirkwood steadily fall further and further into darkness, Spiders and orcs steadily encroaching, forcing the elves further into their last stronghold. The Dwarves who’d lost homes and knew their fortresses could only hold so long if Sauron enslaved everyone else.

All of these guys who held family and love for their people above all else. Who wanted a world free of war, who didn’t care for great deeds or ballads speaking of them. Who respected those of lesser official standing and saw them as people with opinions as valid as their own.

They just wanted their homes. They wanted their family and friends alive.

They longed for peace. Not glory or land.

And that’s where those of the First and Second Age failed.

[thesiltverses]

Hey Jon! Looking for a bit of writing advice since you seem to be pretty good at this- How do you write metaphors without being too on the nose? It’s something I’m struggling with at the moment. Thanks!

I'm probably not the right person to ask this question because I have very strong and specific opinions.

When we talk about metaphors being too on-the-nose, I think we're really saying one of three things.

It's too obvious in the sense that it's been done before (e.g. an oppressed fantasy race being used as a catch-all metaphor for real-life marginalised peoples)

It's too obvious in the sense that it's offputtingly reductive and over-simple, either in terms of making the story and characters feel real, or as a tasteless misrepresentation of the issue it aims to address (e.g. an oppressed fantasy race being used as a catch-all metaphor for real-life marginalised peoples).

A century's worth of establishment critical analysis attempting to make sense of modernism and post-modernism has made us all hopeless idiots who believe an allegory is invariably no good unless it's buried deep in complex referentiality and can only be retrieved with months of study. (e.g. a very timely example - J.B. Priestley's An Inspector Calls, where the author uses the format of the detective mystery to address the role of the super-wealthy in social murder and make the case that it is every bit as real as lawless murder, is extremely on the nose! It's taught in schools because the message is very clearly spelled out! But that's exactly what it needs to be and it would not be better if it was subtler! Being on the nose means you've landed the punch!)

So for me there is no broad-brush answer, it depends very much on the position and role of your metaphor in the story (and so this answer is probably useless, again, without knowing the specifics). I'd begin by asking yourself the same question on two fronts: where does the metaphor take me next?

As the writer, does the metaphor give me more to play with, or is it entrapping me into an over-familiar structure or tropes? A much-discussed 'bad metaphor' right now is horror movies where the monster is Trauma...which then blocks the narrative into a predictable corner where the hero inevitably has to cathartically overcome the Trauma or it'll send the wrong message.

Correspondingly, as an audience member, once I grasp the metaphor, what am I going to feel other than 'oh, I get it?' Children of Men is too direct and on-the-nose to even be considered an allegory. Its extremely unsubtle and one-note depiction of a monstrous near-future Britain that's forcibly rounding up refugees fills me nonetheless with powerful emotion - with terror, with unease, with anger, with a faint hope in the kindness of strangers. But that's in the immense strength of its characters, its careful observation, and its tense action to make me care. By comparison, when a fantasy story has human bigots locking up impoverished nomadic elves or what-have-you, I usually feel absolutely nothing, not because it's too fantastical, but because the writer doesn't have any genuine insights or depth of empathy for the issue or the (in)humanity involved, and is instead just using the metaphor as a piece of worldbuilding shorthand to signal to the audience who is good and who is bad. (Some writers will then attempt to gussy up the metaphor by introducing moral complexity - oh, no, the elves have stabbed a random innocent human! - but this doesn't actually improve anything, it only makes the parallel ever more tasteless.)

[skyrim-forever]

WIP Wednesday

On Wednesdays, we gush about wips <3 Thanks to @sulphuricgrin @silly-little-diary @labskeever @umbracirrus @theoneandonlysemla for the tags!

Tagging: @changelingsandothernonsense @dirty-bosmer @pocket-vvardvark @ladytanithia @firefly-factory @captain-of-silvenar

@scholarlyhermit @sanzas-reverie @heavy-metal-dick @lucien-lachance @hircines-hunter @saltymaplesyrup

@thequeenofthewinter @friend-of-giants @throughtrialbyfire @pyre-of-pages @sunsettemplar

Here's how Nerevar's doing, was hoping to get all his remaining skin done but made good progress regardless! I also have been trying my hand at dangling beads to make dripping blood, planing to add more after the hair is done. these were just to test out if I could do it.

I've also done a bit of writing, writing is still super difficult rn, but I wanted to share an Volkihar vampire oc I had who is a terrible, power-hungry lady <3 A treat for @dirty-bosmer and @theoneandonlysemla specifically <3

Yvonne studied Vingalmo. This was something she often did. He never noticed of course, not only for the fact she was careful to disguise her glances in time with lifting her goblet or whilst speaking to another. When she wasn’t watching the Altmer, she was watching his rival. Him and Orthjolf had a lot in common, it hadn’t taken her long to notice that. Their respective egos encapsulated most of the hall and left little room for anyone else, save for Lord Harkon, of course. For two men coveting his throne, they exerted far more energy on the other than the one in the palace of leadership. Orthjolf was more upfront, he made his disdain for elves very well-known that she thought him to be almost too on the nose. Brash, brutish, awfully Nord he was in everything from views to demeanor. An easy target she thought, how simple it will be to get him talking, earn his favour. Favour to which she intended to use to entice the mer into likewise favouring her, offer him secrets and position herself on his side. Eyes only on the other’s throat, she could slip in between them seamlessly, only here a few weeks thus far but a change of place had not quelled her ambition. Aside from the human remains, it was not unlike courtly life in Wayrest, preferably even as her bumbling husband’s entrails decomposed in the mountainous Reach. At least everyone here was more intelligent than he had been; albeit that bar is in Oblivion.

So yes, Yvonne intended to speak to the Nord following the family meal, flutter her eyelashes and play the adoring young lady in need of male guidance act she had perfected years ago. Her mother was an inspiration in that regard, and in many others. But while she dabbed the blood from her mouth, light pats as those in dignified society do, she changed her mind. 

“Orthjolf, there is a matter I must discuss with you later. I trust you know what it concerns.” Harkon said. 

“Why yes, My Lord. I had begun to wonder when we would return to the subject.” It was obvious that Vingalmo would not let this go unnoticed but when the other’s blood soaked lips smirked at him, she noticed the way his facial muscles contracted. The annoyance only present for a split-second but nevertheless it intrigued her. 

“My Lord, perhaps you would care for a variety of opinions on the matter.”

“For now this is best kept between Orthjolf, yourself and Garan will be informed in time.” The disappointment didn’t show until the Nord opened his mouth again. 

“It’s a matter between kinsmen, I’m sure you understand, elf.” She saw how his lips pursed, tensed as he both literally and figuratively bite his tongue, the narrowing of his eyes that disappeared in an instant. 

“Of course.”

[mystxmomo]

HI im getting into vhaeraun so, tasks and Situations permitting, im gonna see if I can shoot you some questions to learn more about his scrunkly ass 👉👈

so! what, in your opinion, are vhaerauns most PROMINENT traits (ie whats most obvious in how he acts+interacts) and what are vhaerauns most IMPORTANT traits (core defining aspects that influence his decisions+behaviors and how he approaches relationships)?

often times theres overlap there, but i get the impression vhaeraun keeps a lot close to his chest. and as a bonus followup: are there any differences with those two between Vhaeraun-as-Person and Vhaeraun-as-Deity

hope this ask is fun!! ouo)7

Thank you for enabling me. Gladly.

Post write-up edit: Sorry ahead of time. This ended up being Very, very long. 6k words... a lot of it is transcription from the novels and guidebooks though. If you want the TL;DR of my thoughts I summarize everything at the end, but all the dirty details are in the middle.

Also late edit: Thank @abracadav-r for digging up a lot of these screenshots while I went crazy on the write up. They were a MASSIVE help getting all the information I needed to cite in order.

Okay so. Three things right off the bat before I get into this.

This is something that I feel like goes without saying when I talk about these things, but I always feel the need to add a disclaimer on just in case one of these posts escape containment. A lot of these thoughts are going to be conclusions that I have come to about this character based on the evidence we're given canonically. Given that it's my opinion, I don't want to imply that it's the only way to interpret this character and in fact I think the charm of DND and the various characters within it is that they're little tools you can use to best shape the narrative you're trying to tell.

As such, I'm going to be trying to make it clear when something is "This is a presumption I have made based on evidence." And "This is just plain-spoken canon" and generally speaking, I will try and cite directly what I've pulled from.

Now. Related to that first point. I'm going to be pulling from Evermeet: Island of Elves the novel. The thing about Evermeet is that the way it's presented is as an optional mythos for the elves. As in, in universe, it is told from the perspective of someone passing down an oral tradition. It is a biased origin myth written by the victors.

Now. The reason I personally like Evermeet, despite having some qualms with the metatextual framework of it (which I will get into in depth when it pops up but tldr; There's a lot of victim blaming and the author does not seem aware that she wrote an abuse victim. It was the late 90's of course familial abuse against men isn't treated seriously) is that I'm of the personal belief that the Elf and Drow mythos, when existing in conversation with one another, is best interpreted as a story about familial abuse through the largescale framework of the divine. This is my personal agenda and my bias, and something that Evermeet is great for giving me evidence of! But, still worth establishing that this is a novel that you don't have to take as canon.

Final point before our read-more, because this is getting dangerously long as is. Because of how things are framed within the stories we're given, I do I feel like it's very important to pull up the context itself and not just go off the wiki. The example I will use for this is that on Vhaeraun's wiki page, there is a quote from him that out of context makes it sound like he's choosing not to help one of his follower because the follower hasn't impressed him well enough

“You lack the skill.” — Vhaeraun to Malvag when asked, "Why won't you help me?"

However, in context it becomes (in my opinion) very clear that Vhaeraun isn't helping him because he sincerely thinks that the guy can't do it. Like it would be dangerous for him to try. I'm under the impression in context that he's not denying him because he thinks he doesn't deserve it, he's denying him because he sincerely lacks the skill to use that help properly. And I think that is an important place to actually start our larger character analysis.

Vhaeraun watched. Malvag could feel the god's presence just over his shoulder. He whispered yet another prayer, one that would allow him to touch the god's omniscience. "I need him," he pleaded. "Why won't you help me?" The answer was a whisper only Malvag could hear. You lack the skill. Malvag rocked back on his heels. stunned. That was it [...]

So I'm bad at keeping things into categories. So we're going to start with what I think are Vhaerauns most important traits, and then go into his most prominent ones, because I feel like the important traits color the prominent ones, but like you said I think that kind of meshes with who he is as a person and why he behaves like he does. I'm going to try and narrow it down as I go, but if some of this seems a bit scattered at times. [mumbling noises] don't worry about it.

So that in mind. Insane thing to start with, but the biggest thing I would argue for with Vhaeraun is that he is best painted as a victim of abuse. And this isn't implication. If you take Evermeet at face value and how he interacts with Lolth in the beginning chapters, this is plain text.

(This is going to be the longest section because I have a lot to say on this both in how it's portrayed on a media analysis level and in a "What this means for his character" level, so I apologize in advance)

"Sehanine!" shrieked the dark goddess. She rose and rounded on her son, who'd been standing at her shoulder like a hovering raven awaiting a chance to feed. Vhaeraun took an instinctive step backward. "You idiot!" she screamed her face contorted with rage [...]

"And he is your lord husband. If there is a difference, please explain it to me. Otherwise, we will say that I am your son and leave the matter as settled," Vhaeraun said. His words were blunt and the implications harsh; instinctively he braced himself for another display of his mother's ready temper. To his surprise she laughed delightedly "You are my

[...] "And then what?" he countered in a tone that approximated his mother's sneer. "How can you hope to rule, with a goddess of Sehanine's power to oppose you? You should kill her now, when she is still helpless." Araushnee's hand flashed forward and dealt a ringing slap to her son's face. "Do not presume to question me," she said in a voice that bubbled with rage. "If you are so ignorant that you believe one god can easily kill another, perhaps I was wrong to make you my confidante and partner!" "But what of Herne?" pressed Vhaeraun, eager to salvage something of his dignity even it that only meant winning some small point of argument. "You told me that Malar killed him. And for that matter, why would you set Gruumsh and Malar against Corellon, if neither had hope of success?" "Don't be more of a fool than you must," snapped the goddess. "It is one thing to destroy a god from another place and another pantheon even among the gods, there are hunters and hunted, predators and prey. But to kill a member of one's own pantheon is another matter. If it were so easy, would I not already rule Arvandor?" The young god regarded his mother for several moments, his eyes thoughtful and his fingertips gingerly stroking his stinging cheek. "If it is as you say," he said slowly, "then perhaps you should leave the Seldarine." "Have you not heard a word I have said this day? [...]"

;;

The young god regarded his mother for several moments, his eyes thoughtful and his fingertips gingerly stroking his stinging cheek. "If it is as you say," he said slowly, "then perhaps you should leave the Seldarine." "Have you not heard a word I have said this day? I wish to rule the Seldarine!" "Then do so by conquest, rather than intrigue," Vhaeraun suggested, "You have been amassing an army to do your will. Leave the Seldarine, and lead that army yourself! Imagine Araushnee at the head of a mighty force, the leader of the anti-Seldarine!" he concluded, his voice ringing with the drama of it and the pride of one who admires his own visions. Araushnee stared at him for a moment, then she shook her head in despair. "How did I give birth to two such idiots? Think, boy! List in your mind the great and glorious generals I have enlisted!"

Now. And here's where my issue with the metatextual framework of Evermeet sits.

The conclusion our wonderful friend Elaine Cunningham seems to want us to come to is that he is inherently complicit in his mothers schemes. Like, theres this consistent idea throughout the book that he is equally at fault as his mother for everything that happened, and that bleeds into the text. It's in the way he's framed around her as that of "A Hovering Raven", and like he's lesser for not standing up to her in that moment. But, what I'm reading with my eyes in the good god given year of 2025 is a character who is getting thrown around by his mother and fawning under her to keep her anger regulated. He's constantly portrayed as preparing to or actively take a hit from her, or deal with the repercussions of her anger, or being on some receiving end of some beration. It does not escape me that he adjusts his plans and the way he talks to make her happy. He suggests that they leave and when it's clear that she's not happy he adjusts his thoughts until she is happy with it.

Now, all of this isn't just a "Here's my propoganda as to why my poor blorbo did nothing wrong moment," (Being upfront, my conclusion for Vhaeraun is "Did a few things wrong, but not nearly as much as you'd think) I think this is something that genuinely colors his motivations and the kind of person he is later. Likewise, I think this showcases something thats not only deeply important about him as a person, but Eilistraee and the dynamic that they're in. I think Vhaeraun did, as a result of being her favorite child, experience more of Lolth's direct abuse than Eilistraee did, and it's given him more of an awareness and nuance of the kind of person their mother is than his sister has.

Editing in a long minor note going into the next section before I post this: I feel the need to establish. As a character, I do actually really like Eilistraee. Vhaeraun is my main focus, but Eilistraee is my third favorite Dark Seladrine god on a character level. I'm a little bit critical of her and her world view here because the book isn't. I feel a bit more of a need to defend Vhaeraun's logic and a bit more of a need to dismantle Eilistraee's because the narrative handling for both consistently isn't handled with the amount of nuance that I think they should be. I personally think Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are two sides of the same coin. Despite what DnD wants me to believe, I don't think Eilistraee is always right and Vhaeraun is always wrong. I think they're two characters responding very differently to the insane and extreme circumstances in which they stemmed from, and to say one is wholly correct and the other is "The wrong one" misses the point.

I also acknowledge that this is a DnD'ism that a lot of people have already criticized since even going back to the 90's. I am not the first to say that the alignment system doesn't hold up and the in-universe idea of good and bad is inherently flawed and lacks a lot of nuance. Like. I think there's this idea of "Because we know he ends up evil, this isn't as severe, because he deserves it for being evil" levels of logic happening within the narrative. Take my hand though, we're going to add nuance to it.

Something else important about Vhaeraun. Just a little thing worth mentioning, not too important in the grand scheme of things. Maybe a little more important than I'm implying. Vhaeraun was the original Main Influential God of the Drow.

So. Comparatively, Eilistraee to me reads as a little naive with how she's often portrayed. She was shielded from the worst of their mothers temper and abuse as a result of being her fathers favorite.

Eilistraee, to me, doesn't understand the intricacies of violence, war, and abuse. When she see's her brother, she see's the same kind of evil as her mother. But Eilistraee a FASCINATINGLY unreliable narrator. She is biased against her brother and his influence, so she is only ever going to see the spread of it as an evil. And because, as mentioned, the book is operating on the assumption that he too is evil, it doesn't so a lot to showcase HOW his presence is an evil. So. Vhaeraun came to Toril first, and Lolth followed because she felt his presence off of one of the elves that came into the Demonweb pits. And the country that he was worshiped in was implied to not only be functional, but like thriving in a time when Dragons were the main threat. And his power only collapsed like it did because of his people dying in a black plague level of tragedy.

Other effects of the Sundering also brought mixed emotions to the goddess. On the one hand, it had destroyed many of her worshipers. Yet for each of her elves that had tumbled into the sea or been crushed by falling stone, at least three of Vhaeraun's followers had perished. Lloth reigned supreme among the dark elves' gods.

The conclusion that I'm coming to (Admittedly, this one doesn't have canon basis in plain text to point to, but stick with me) I think Vhaeraun see's himself as the "Rightful" God of the Drow (As in, drow as a whole, not just male drow.) He see's himself as someone that had his "Kingdom" stolen from him. If HE was in control the drow would still be powerful. If HE was the main one being worshiped, they would be respected. But because his mother came and influenced them, he (they) lost everything.

Related to both of these point, I don't think that he has ever seen Eilistraee as a direct threat to him and his power. All of his hatred towards his sister has been portrayed (and outright stated) to be rooted reaction to how he's treated as a result of their father favoring her, and what he see's as her enabling. And again, that goes right back into what my thesis point is for the Drow/Elf pantheon. This is a story about an abusive family structure, and that colors everything about the relationships between parent and child and siblings.

[...] Likewise, the Masked Lord nurtures an abiding hatred of Eilistraee. The Dark Maiden always held Corellon's favor more than her hateful brother, and she thwarted Vhaeraun's early efforts to bring all the Ilythiiri (southern, dark-skinned elves) under his sway, enabling Lolth and Ghaunadaur to make great inroads among those who would become the drow. [...]

"Not alone," Vhaeraun said firmly. "Eilistraee plotted with us. She deserves to share my fate." "Eilistraee? I cannot believe this of the girl" began Sehanine. "You were not here!" Aerdrie broke in fiercely. "I saw her shoot the arrow that struck down Corellon! And as her own mother points out, the girl has never missed her mark!" Corellon shook his head. "I cannot believe she would do such a thing!" "Believe!" hissed Vhaeraun, enraged that Corellon suffered such doubt and anguish at the thought that his precious Eilistraee might have turned against him. He was willing enough to name his son a traitor! Vhaeraun had always hated his younger, favored twin. Now he would have his vengeance. The young god turned to his mother, his eyes burning with an enmity that set even one such as Araushnee back on her heels. "You promised me power and honor," he said in a voice meant only for his mother's ears. "But instead, your ambitions have cost me everything. Give me Eilistraee, and I will consider this day's bargain well made."

[...] Finally he looked to Vhaeraun. "Eilistraee has chosen. Go now, and take her with you. But know that the day your hand is lifted against her will be the last of your life. This I swear, by all the trees of Arvandor." Vhaeraun's face twisted with hatred and rage, but he had little choice but to comply. Corellon stood silent as the young god shouldered his unconscious twin and disappeared. Finally he rose to his feet and faced his fallen love. [...]

And I do think it's a bit telling that even at the height of his power, the most he did was exile her. (This is implied, who else would have done it)

[...] "I am known as Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden. I require from you neither reverence nor vigilance," she said softly. "I come as a friend, and in need of friends. Put aside both your weapons and your wonder, and let us talk. There are things that you must know if you intend to confront the Ilythiiri." The sadness in her voice smote Sharlario's heart, and he did as she bid. "You spoke of exile, lady," he commented. "Forgive me, but I have never heard of such a thing. From whence are you exiled, and, if I might ask, why?" "Most recently, from the southlands," the goddess said. [...]

Authors note: The Ilythiiri were drow before they were called drow.

If he wanted her dead (for the crime of existing), I think he would have killed her ages ago. But I don't think he does. I think he's just angry at the hand he's been dealt and it's easier to blame her than it is to unpack the complicated feelings he has towards his mother. Him attacking her in Lady Penitent feels like a means to an end for me. He's not attacking her because he hates her personally, despite what she thinks. He's attacking her because (In character logic and reasoning) if he combines their churches then maybe he will have enough power to combat their mother.

(Now. I as an author think this is flawed logic, and we know that because when Eilistraee took his aspects the churches splintered, because you can't force people to worship someone they don't like. But, his logic and reasoning nonetheless)

I'm not sure where to include this, but we're getting to the end of the family section and I still haven't mentioned Selvetarm.

Selvetarm... To keep it short. The cycle of abuse continues. He's absolutely blinded by rage when it comes to his family.

[...] "What I want, you speck of a creature" he brandished the stump of his wrist before Inthracis's face "is Selvetarm's obsequious brain torn from his foul head so that I can use his empty skull as a piss pot." [...]

Now. Going away from all of that to the next big thing with him.

I think a lot of people want to kind of. Dance around the drow racism of his character. I don't think we can dance around the fantasy racism of his character. I think, in fact, we need to sit on the fantasy racism a little bit and peel back the layers of it because I actually think the framework of what we're looking and what it says about him is kind of interesting. Because Vhaeraun really does not hate non-drow.

This can be a touchy subject. Up front, take none of this as a defense of his mindset, just an explanation toward its and an exploration of it.

Source citing note: This section comes from this video by Ed Greenwood on him.

[Start: 3:41] Non-drow can become priests of Vhaeraun, but it's very rare, as the deity is inherently suspicious of non-drow, and because many drow, holding similar suspicions, would refuse to accept, so train and work with, such an individual. So if someone wants to embrace the faith of Vhaeraun in service, that is, becoming an ordained priest, they are going to have to demonstrate personal support to Vhaeraun's aims, then appeal in prayer to the deity directly. Vhaeraun will respond, manifesting an avatar, and flood supplicant's mind with his own, an excruciatingly painful experience that may well drive the supplicant mad. His arrogance and force of presence is terrible to most mortal to prove their thoughts and memories personally. Vhaeraun must be certain of their motives and their loyalty. He dare not allow a traitor into the ranks of his relatively, when measured against the ever present malicious darkness that is the worship of his mother Lolth, small and weak church. If he finds treachery, he will typically destroy the mortal mind he has melded with, leaving the hapless would be traitor a drooling, vertigo smitten victim, able to speak and reason only slowly and haltingly, and so extremely vulnerable to almost any hostile being. If he finds loyalty, he will be delighted, for he sees the road to achieving his aim of drow supremacy as necessitating acceptance of his guidance and that of the mortal drow who serve him by non-drow. He will mark such a mind with a boon, typically darkvision, or, for a gifted mortal, the ability to cast dancing lights at will, or darkness, or fairy fire, once every 48 hours, from the moment of their last casting of a magic he's conferred. This boon is not entirely generous, but also serves to alert all drow, Vhaeraun intends it for his followers, but it works for drow of any primary loyalty, that this individual is his. That is, that he favors this being and they are loyal to him. This is what enables a non-drow wannabe cleric of Vhaeraun to find acceptance in the ranks of his church. They will never be entirely trusted, as in, they may well be trusted with dangerous, important tasks or missions by senior priests who see them as inherently expendable, but they will always be watched, both overtly and covertly. But so long as they accept their subservient role, they will be accepted.

But this isn't the only thing I want to bring up from this video.

How much do you know about the concept of noblesse oblige.

("the inferred responsibility of privileged people to act with generosity and nobility toward those less privileged.")

[..] Vhaeraun himself has bolstered this acceptance by protecting such non-drow priests personally in situations where he manifests, and clearly, by his words and deeds, caring about their health, safety, and welfare. When one of his senior drow priests, Alont Aerlarr of Athkatla, asked the god why he did this, Vhaeraun replied, "To lead and rule others means we must value those others; a shepherd who cares not for the sheep is no worthy shepherd. By valuing our livestock, we increase our own value and demonstrate to all our fitness to lead all other creatures." [...]

Using these as sources, here is what I think Vhaeraun's mentality and the drow supremacy of it all comes from.

Vhaeraun does sincerely see drow as being better than other races. However. To properly understand where his mindset is, you must also understand that it is a racism of patronizing rather than one of pure hatred. Drow are better, they're stronger, they're my favorite, so we must show our strength and power and our ability to care for those we will rule. How can we be trusted to rule over them if we do not carry ourselves with the honor and respect of someone that is worthy of ruling.

It is the divine right to rule on a hierarchical level.

I also think there is a level of distrust and discomfort that comes from their their circumstance. He is the counter to Eilistraee's "We must show others we are good and deserving of their respect." He is this logic of "Why should we trust and respect those that don't respect us? They should just already respect us."

So I think the drow supremacy of it all is uhh. Nuanced. I don't think his mindset is right, but I also think it is one that would be changed if their circumstances were less extreme. I also think the mindset enables his church to do uh. Evil Slavery Things! Again, we cannot get around the evil fantasy slavery things and the bigotry of it all.

But we can explore it. Because this is a fictional character in a fictional setting.

Now, semi-related to the above point as well, with all of that in consideration, I don't know if Vhaeraun wants power for the sake of power. I don't have any in-text proof of this outside of "Everything above is emblematic of a deeper motivation" but I'm kind of under the impression that to Vhaeraun, power is synonymous with stability and respect.

So. That's Vhaeraun and the important/prominent traits he has. Now I think we can get into him as a person on a personality level.

;;

It is now that we can actually pull things up from Demihuman Deities and Drow of the underdark, and a little bit from War of the Spiderqueen

Personality wise, this is how he's described.

I think your impression of him (That he's someone that keeps a lot close to his chest) is correct. My personal interpretation of Vhaeraun is that he is playing the part his followers need him to play. What he needs to be is a leader and a king. What I think Vhaeraun wants is to be one of the guys (for a lack of a better term). He wants to be included. He WANTS to be called out to, and wants to be wanted. He finds it hard to hold aloof from the needs of his worshipers. He doesn't want them summoning anyone but him.

and this is built into how he works mechanically. He's weak on his own, but he's supposed to be built around his followers and take advantage of their skill set.

Related: Do you want to see the hottest thing he's ever done. Like canonically. To me.

Defending one of his guys without even looking and then sending the assailant flying into the air. Deeply hilarious. Very hot. I would trust him with my life. I think about this passage a non-zero amount.

=

Not important to his character persay, but a fun sidenote to cut through all this. While the fact he's the god of thieves has gotten the most focus in recent years, in the many ways he parallels Eilistraee he's actually the God of the Night canonically, and a lot of things around him (especially in earlier editions) ride around that coding. If Eilistraee is the moon, he is the sky and the stars.

=

I joke about the fact he's a dumbass (Because he can be a little bit of a dumbass) but I do actually think he prefers logic and reason schemeing solutions to violent ones. If he can get power by doing tax evasion, he prefers that to doing it through conquest. Because conquest means the people that worship him die as well, and he really doesn't like putting his guys at risk.

As an example, and something I consider to be a deeply telling thing of his character. He's a bitch that LOVES a loophole. Gods aren't allowed to steal souls from other gods? That's fine. He'll just have his followers do it. He's not breaking any rules.

He can't kill mortals directly? That's fine. He'll hire demons to do it.

He's someone that LOVES getting away with things that he should not. He doesn't need to fight. He just needs to outscheme.

(Though, and this isn't supported by anything in text and another thing I just personally noticed as a trend. Despite seeming to view himself as a schemer and a logical person, he is a character who is not only deeply driven by his emotions, but kneecapped by them as well. As mentioned earlier, he's so blinded by his anger towards his family that it ruins multiple of his plans. His want to keep his worshipers safe stops him from using them, even when they might have allowed it. I think a lot of the things he did in WotsQ was driven by panic. He acts before he thinks, and he acts on his emotions, and he hides that he acts on his emotions by putting up this edgy, knives and shadows front.)

Anyway. Final note. He's a whore. Male slut. Libertine.

Now, there's a consistent implication with most gods in the Forgotten Realms that they are willing to sleep around, and I know that Ed Greenwood has described the presence of gods as caresses and touches. However, lets be clear. There's no implication here. He is just one of the few gods that even back in 2e that is directly mentioned to be sleeping with his followers.

Masked traitors receive the personal attention of Vhaeraun in the form of useful information imparted to them from time to time in their dreams. The Masked Lord richly rewards those who do well in his service, and he often (falsely) hints he is willing grant immortality to worthy traitors or even elevate them to the role of his consort

Now, you can interpret that the (Falsely) is applicable to both the immortal line and the consort line, but

Dragging evermeet back in for one last rodeo.

[...] This proved to be a difficult task, considering that the entire Seldarine was celebrating the dual victories of Corellon Larethian. Avoiding several score of celebrating elven deities, even in a place as vast as Arvandor, proved to be no easy matter. Nor was it easy to hold Vhaeraun's attention: Many a young goddess-and one or two of the elder powers as well-urged the handsome young god to join in the merriment. At highsun, Araushnee finally left Vhaeraun to his revels. She sought out Corellon, for he might [...]

Lolth voice: Ugh. Keeping my sons attention is so hard. Why is it always him and the partying.

Vain.... Handsome.... Okay. I see you DnD. He cares about his appearance, and how he's being perceived.

===

So where does all of this bring us. How do I summarize my thoughts on Vhaeraun: The Masked Lord.

[All of these are my personal conclusion summed up. If you disagree, thats totally fine! But this is the impression of him I personally get with all of this in consideration.]

I think a massive and defining part of his character is the concept of noblesse oblige. This is something that colors so much of the way he behaves. Because as a deity he is stronger than the drow that worship him, it is his job and his duty to protect them. Because drow are better than other races, and it is their duty to Shepard them. If they are not protecting them properly (And by proxy, If he is not protecting his guys properly) that is a failure on their (his) part. He's someone who believes in the idea of honor amongst his own people.

In contrast to that, I think he is deeply possessive, protective, petty, spiteful motherfucker. He is, above all else, emotional, and driven by the things he feels. And I think the things he feels most frequently anger and righteous fury.

And I think the irony of it all is that all of that comes from the fact that he cares. In fact, I think he only acts as he does because of how strongly he cares. The drow are his. They are something stolen from him. He loves the drow. That is his love and his empathy, because it is the only way he's ever known how to love and empathize. And the reason that is the only way he knows how to love and empathize is because he's an abuse victim. You cannot touch on the concept of Vhaeraun without touching on his sister, mother, and father because he only became the kind of person he is because of them. While you don't have to touch on his son, I think doing so adds another layer, because it shows another way he's kneecapped by his emotions. He can't separate the emotions he feels towards his mother from the feelings he has towards his son, thus inflicting the same neglect and pain he was subjected to onto him and leaving him in the hands of his mother, while blaming him and strictly him for what she made of him [Selvetarm, that is.]

You know. Like people to him.

I think his evolution of going from what seems to be this young, Dionysus like deity, to a god of territory who managed to make alliances with dragons and create a respected empire, to this militant and paranoid divine figure and leader of rebellion is fascinating.

And I think, despite his personality being the way it is? He's not unkind. He just isn't wearing that kindness on his sleeve. He CAN'T wear the kindness on his sleeve. But his gifts aren't insincere. He wants to include his worshipers in the things he's doing. He wants to BRING them places.

"Vhaeraun has called me to his service in the planes beyond Faerûn on several occasions," Tzirik admitted. "In fact, I have been in the Demonweb Pits before now. All the gods of our race reside here, each in their own domain within this great chasm of webbing. My previous business did not take me to Lolth's domain, though, and that was a good many years ago."

I think he is someone deeply motivated by the concept of "Means to an end." Doing bad things now is fine, because once we're in power we won't need to do that anymore. It's okay to do bad things to the people that don't respect us, because it is not our job to convince them to respect us. They will see our power, and then they will respect us.

And, if you want something that I think is never stated plainly, but my insane delusions of the upmost degree. I think he's a god who's a little uncomfortable with the divine. They're not something that can be trusted. But his mortals? The ones who chose to worship him and put their trust in him? They are the ones he likes. They are the one's he'll protect.

And also all of that and he's a slut.

[dinosaurswant2rule]

The trouble with Galadriel and Sauron (what the show won't admit)

Before I get hate, I fully love these two as a couple, I ship them so hard as Sauron and Galadriel and Halbrand/Galadriel (although I would have loved it if Halbrand was just a "dude" with a tragic past not the source of evil incarnate)

Anyway my rant/analysis

I've read a lot of META analysis about TROP/Galadriel / her mistakes/not spotting Sauron for what he is etc / the mistakes blah blah blah

And while it's also fascinating, my big issue with the show and to a certain extent the analysis around her is that and I'm going to say this SUPER LOUD

SAURON IS RIGHT (in a way that doesn't for Celebrimbor or any of the other character he interacts with)

Yes Sauron absolutely manipulates Galadriel and she refuses to acknowledge a whole series of things.

But, for Galadriel, everything he says to her on the raft is absolutely true in a way that's not really true for anyone else.

Galadriel IS cast out by the elves for wanting more soldiers, for hunting an enemy that they think is gone even though she is TADA right as well. Sauron is not dead (Gil Galad grhhh) They don't listen to the commander whose hunted him for decades and led them across the battle field, they just say go away crazy cat lady - we'll just ship you off to Valinor.

And it just annoys me so much, that it's never really acknowledged EVER in the second series that she actually has a point

Sauron WAS NOT DEAD

That they put her directly in the path of someone when she is angry/damaged/still mourning a brother she lost a long time ago

And when they find out she is right, they have GALL to blame her for it utterly

Elrond AND Gil Galad both lay the blame entirely on her shoulders, no one ever really openly says, sorry Gal we put you in a super awkward position where you could have been open to Sauron's manipulation, that's on us and sorry for not believing you first time around.

Elrond - twat that he is (although I love him) sorta says sorry in between make out kisses at the last possible second, but it would have been nice for him to actually acknowledge it that Auntie Galadriel actually had a point.

He also has the nerve to say that she had the darkness calling to her/ that basically she was just an idiot falling for Sauron's tricks / is possibly corrupted herself

And Gil Galad never admits it either - still vaguely regarding her a sparkly flea he can't quite swat

And that she's somehow created another problem he's got to fix

While I totally admit that it's partly her fault, I just don't think the show is written as desperately fair to Galadriel and the second series suffers a lot from it.

After building her as the angry/damaged/virtually invincible soldier in the first series, the second series determinedly knocks her down a peg or two and the men folk take over (this is not helped by the fact that she no female relationships in the series) even though t hey are partly to blame for this mess.

I guess it frustrates me that the writing /the way the cast describe it - they tend to just go with the Galadriel made a horrible mistake and look at the consequences / she really did want what Sauron offered line

Anyway, back to Sauron, HE IS RIGHT, she is dumped by the elves and he is the only one who vaguely sees her as AN EQUAL, he actually finds her determination and obsession APPEALING rather than a turn off.

And it's seen as this monstrous thing, he's saying, but it's not really because he's being absolutely true

I SEE YOU AS AN EQUAL, AS MY MATCH (romantic or otherwise)

LET'S WORK TOGETHER

BECAUSE YOU'RE AMAZING

It's hardly a shock that Galadriel found this appealing because literally no man in her immediate world has ever really acknowledged in this way before and by the end of the series, he stills wants her!

(and in my opinion even after the roundhouse kick to the face)

(this might be one of the reasons her connection is so deep with him)

Celembrimbor on other hand, Sauron plays on his vanity/his desperation/his loneliness? as well as his basic good nature, but he doesn't really ever hit the nail on the head in terms of his situation (cause frankly Brimby is living a decent life)

Sorry this always bugs me when I watch it/read it

Just had to ran this out, much love to the TROP fandom and HALADRIEL and SAURONDIEL too, you're all amazing

Elsa out x

[wolfsong-the-bloody-beast]

I'm kind of obsessed with Blackwall's idealized ideas about the Wardens. He was once picked up by a Warden and lulled by the promise of atoning for his crimes and turning his life around, only for that opportunity to slip away when the Warden not only saved him, but sacrificed his own life to do it. This whole experience makes our Blackwall become a Warden in heart, if not in blood, but with his own ideas of what a Grey Warden should be - noble, brave, inspiring, heroic, self-sacrificial. Everything he now wants to embody. He knows well that he's not there, but he wants nothing more than to start from scratch and be that.

In his beliefs, he reminds me a bit of Wynne in Origins who tells the Warden at some point that the Grey Wardens are supposed to be more than killing machines and weapons against the blight.

“There’s more to being a Grey Warden than killing darkspawn and saving the world from the Blight. Ultimately, being a Grey Warden is about serving others, about serving all people, whether elves or dwarves or men. As a Grey Warden, you are a guardian of men. And you guard them because their continued existence is more important than you are.”

However, we know that's not exactly how it works. That's what they want the Wardens to be. The light against darkness. The shield against monsters.

Although it's not entirely wrong, either, I suppose, all things considered. The more darkspawn they obliterate and push back, the more people are protected from them. Of course, sacrificing their lives to fight literal monsters, which means those same monsters don't eat everybody's kids, ultimately is heroic, and it's something that must have been born out of the need to protect the world and its inhabitants (from the Blight). But to have idealized opinions of the Wardens to this degree, you have to ignore all the other shady stuff and the mentality we, as players, also know the Wardens for. The fact that the Wardens are primarily weapons to slay darkspawn, prevent and end Blights, by any means necessary. The last part is important. After all, they are the Grey Wardens, not the White Wardens. They recruit from all walks of life and are famous for taking in criminals. Not to redeem themselves and get a second chance at life, but because they usually have nowhere to go and nothing left to lose. It's not a coincidence that each of the Origins gets chosen by Duncan, not only because he sees them as capable, but also because they are in a situation they can't escape from. Either they join the Wardens, or they're done for.

We know the Wardens from a few games now, but does the public in the setting even know? Does the average person have any idea how far the Wardens are willing to go? Besides grand stories of slaying monsters in the dark and preventing the end of the world? Probably not. The order is very secretive. And it explains a lot. The Wardens end up sounding almost romantic, when being a Warden is anything but. Is it ignorance talking out of these characters? Perhaps.

It once again shows us this aspect of Dragon Age where you can't take everything a character says as a fact, because the setting is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about, but who are absolutely convinced that they do.

And yet, I can't help but also like Wynne's and Blackwall's romantic ideas about what the Wardens are or should be, almost knights in shining armour and all that. They're fairy tales, but they're beautiful fairy tales. And I can't fault the characters for wanting to believe it or even live it. Especially in case of Blackwall, who sees it as a way to make up for the crimes he committed, somewhat. In the end, this might actually be a bigger draw to join the Wardens than, "Got nowhere to go? Come suffer horribly and probably die gruesomely with us!" It all sounds great on paper, though. I can't fault Davrin for trying to find purpose in life by becoming a monster hunter, either.

And maybe a little bit of idealism doesn't hurt. Not only it's good motivation, but in the end, doing things by "any means necessary" doesn't always pay off, either. It led the Wardens into all kinds of trouble, like getting tricked into employing dangerous forms of blood magic and demon summoning, basically into doing their enemy's work for them. In their determination to win at any cost, they helped trigger a cataclysmic event. Maybe having some principles isn't so bad after all.

In the end, I can appreciate that we get to see the clash of the old and new blood in Veilguard, where there's hope for the order to transform into an organization that's less secretive, less exclusive, and hopefully less prone to letting corruption spread through its ranks and make other devastating mistakes. Duncan once said that letting people join the Wardens isn't an "act of charity", and I like how Evka and Antoine go, "Yeah, you know what? Fuck that." And that likely inspires more loyalty. I imagine Blackwall would like that.

[ladyloveandjustice]

I'm responding to a post regarding Marcille having conservative views about gender role, linked HERE (which I also responded to in the replies, but it's an interesting enough topic I want to make my own post). I think that post's point about not sanding off characters' flaws is good, but I do think the reasoning for Marcille is missing something.

I honestly don't think Marcille wants men to be masculine and in strict masculine roles. Look how femme (and long haired) the guys in the Daltian clan are and she WORSHIPS them. If you interpret the person she sees in the succubus bit as male, they are extremely femme.

She just wants human men to look like male (and female) elves, which means androgynous. Kui said the clothes elf men and women wear don't look super different, they all wear simple, pretty outfits and all look pretty. I do think female elves are expected to be slightly more femme and male ones can be a bit more masc (see Otta being mistaken for a man) but there's still an androgyny to everyone and appearance wise, both men and women have long hair and wear clothing other races would see as feminine.

(Elf men and women also aren't very different physically, as seem here in the canary genderbend where they switch sexes and literally look exactly the same. Boobs are given or removed and that's it)

Remembering elf beauty standards makes a lot of Marcille's opinions make sense.

Remember that she was super shocked Laios didn't look similar enough to Falin and exaggerated his masculine qualities to a unflattering, buffoonish degree in her mind, implying she finds them unattractive? She thinks Falin should wear feminine things and have longer hair because elves do. Laios having long hair is weird to her because he's not androgynous like she thinks he should be... so she just thinks it clashes and does nothing for him. I don't think she would care if Laios wore a skirt or something.

We don't really see her ever exhibiting any regressiveness about gender roles outside of people's appearances, and you'd think she would if it were about that right? She never says anything about gender roles in the story. She never says Falin shouldn't like bugs or be how she is because she's a girl, or that Izutsumi should act more feminine. Significantly, she also tells the guys in her group that the should pay as much attention to their hair and appearance as she does, rather than going "of course men don't understand hygiene and hair!" Or even bringing up gender at all.

Marcille does definitely have some regressive opinions and prejudices though, as seen with the orcs. She's a mess, and not seeing Falin's discomfort with femininity and imposing her own values is a serious flaw.

And she and Falin definitely have very different interests, with Marcille valuing all thing femme and Falin not at all being interested, and Marcille is repeatedly disappointed she can't share stuff with Falin (see her in the makeup comic) ...but Marcille loves her anyway, I agree completely on that.

She's a complex, flawed character, but I think my interpretation is not only valid, but makes a lot of sense with what's been shown in the manga.

[cloudinthesky444]

Sauron and the real reason he fought those men in Númenor.

Okay, I was rewatching Season 1 of The Rings of Power, and I noticed something interesting.

In the episode where Sauron talks to those men, they tell him that Galadriel would never want him, among other things. At first, you can clearly see him looking irritated, as if he's about to kill them, but he holds back for some reason.

Anyway, what I want to highlight is the way Sauron takes the emblem from the man—it’s very obvious, almost as if he wanted the man to notice.

If he wanted to, he could have done it without raising any suspicion, just like he recovered Galadriel’s dagger without anyone realizing.

Here’s my theory: Sauron viewed Númenor as a paradise of opportunities (as he himself stated) and wanted to stay there to exploit every possible advantage.

Galadriel, who acted impulsively and without much organization, was an obstacle to his plans.

At first, I think Sauron found Galadriel’s impulsiveness a bit annoying. This is evident when he drops his facade and argues with her in the dungeons, saying something like, “You act like a horse at full gallop,” referring to her impulsive and rash behavior.

As I mentioned, it annoyed him, but at the same time, he expressed his admiration for her. He admired Galadriel’s obstinacy and bravery—she’s unashamedly bold.

So, I think the reason Sauron fought with those men was mainly to speed up Galadriel’s departure from Númenor. His fight with them was primarily to sway public opinion and further stoke dislike toward the Elves, Galadriel being one of them.

Pharazôn, on the other hand, tried to calm the people by assuring them no Elf would replace them, and, to appease them, he likely went to Míriel to hasten Galadriel’s departure.

As for Sauron, he stood to gain since the only one leaving Númenor would be Galadriel, not him.

He would remain in his cell. I think he initially didn’t plan to hit those men; perhaps he just wanted to be accused of theft. But he ended up fighting them because they hit him first.

Now, back to the main point. After Galadriel acted recklessly, Sauron seized the opportunity to manipulate her into doing what he wanted. He used his ability to identify his enemy's desires to "fulfill" them and bend them to his will. Galadriel’s desire was to get a troop, and when she realized she couldn’t persuade Míriel, Sauron suggested she speak with her father, the king in the tower.

Galadriel, thinking she had solved the issue, fled when Pharazôn arrived. But in reality, the one who had won was Sauron.

Before Galadriel escaped, Sauron told Pharazôn something like, “You’ll let her go if you know where she’s headed,” hinting that he would reveal Galadriel’s destination in exchange for a reward: an emblem and freedom from the dungeons.

This way, Sauron changed his fate, staying longer in Númenor, while Galadriel left empty-handed.

The only thing Sauron didn’t anticipate was Galadriel teaching him the power of friendship and the value of teamwork. The rest is history. He developed feelings for her.

Although I still faithfully believe that Galadriel's arrogance was what seemed attractive to him from the very first moment, because despite carrying out his plans, he allowed himself to flirt with her and, you know, try to make her nervous.

There's whole matter of pride, and Galadriel herself, was attractive enough for him—until Galadriel rejected him, of course.

[hikarielizabethbloom]

Post about Galadriel because I am obsessed.

Ok, I'm gonna write something some of you may not agree with, but this is just my opinion, not canon. So please be kind because I refuse to fight over fictional characters again.

Also, bear in mind that I am very critical of my favorite characters. I firmly believe that, at least in fiction, they should be held accountable for their actions, especially when said actions affect others, no matter their motivations and intentions.

Now, season 1, Galadriel was a mess. She was a war survivor, she had PTSD, and she was, well, Galadriel. Seriously, what was she supposed to do when the war was over and she was left with nothing by herself? Find peace in Valinor? All alone? With just her pain and memories as her companions? No, she needed a quest to survive. A path to revenge. Anything that could help ease the pain. And she found one. Or maybe she created one herself in her mind. But this is what Gil-galad and Elrond, hell, even her men, saw, and I don't blame them for being wary of her. Yes, in the end, she turned out to be right, and her instincts were spot on, but it was a 50/50 situation here. She said so herself, she jumped off the ship, and she prayed she made the right decision.

And then, she met Halbrand. And that's how season 1 began. Galadriel made a lot of bad decisions in s1 that led to awful consequences. So yes, she was right, but she also made sure to be right. You know what I mean. And even if it was not her intention, she did give Halbrand the strength, power and motivation to become the Sauron we love. And that manipulative bastard played right in her insecurities. Hell, she was so out of her mind because of her fear, pain, and the darkness she felt in herself that, for one moment, she wanted to accept what Sauron offered her. And even after she found the truth, she decided to keep it to herself because she didn't want to face her mistakes yet.

But that led to Sauron in Eregion.

I love Galadriel arc in s2. Yes, it was more of a psychological journey, but she was basically involved in everything. And I know that fans believed she was not treated right in s2, but I really don't see it. She brought Sauron into the elves' home, and all she got was a scolding from Gil-Galad and a few mean words from Elrond. But she still got her way because, despite everything, both elves loved her and respected her. All the elves are in awe of her tbh, she just can't see it because she doesn't believe in herself. And that's her path in s2. All that she went through with Halbrand, with the elves, with Adar (yes, IMO, he did have an impact on her) and with herself led to that final moment with Sauron. She battled her demons. She battled with herself. And in the end, she won. Because her darkness didn't define her, and neither did her mistakes. Her actions do. Celebrimbor showed the way. When she woke up, her friends were around her. Waiting for her to lead her on their new path.

In the finale, Galadriel doesn't just decline Sauron's offer, she chooses herself. She doesn't need him to be worshipped. She has done it by herself with her actions. She has all the power she needs. She is all she needs.

Does that mean that she won't be tempted by the darkness again? Obviously, she will. And she will probably make other mistakes as well. The difference is that she now knows how to deal with them. She has a better support system.

Ok, there's probably more, but I'm gonna stop here.

[apoloadonisandnarcissus]

“An army”

“What did he promise you?”

We often say Galadriel was lying to Adar in this scene from 2x06, but in retrospective, I don’t think she was. In my opinion, she actually believed Sauron’s entire goal in Season 1 was to get an army through her. And she adds: “Then it would seem he gave us both what we desired.” She, too, wanted an army to go to the Southlands and destroy Sauron, after all.

Galadriel believes Sauron deceived her in Season 1, and used her, and their connection was a lie, one of his illusions. She says so herself to both Gil-galad and Elrond, in 2x01 and 2x02. (“He deceived me. I was deceived.”)

Galadriel: “Sauron used me. And under his hand, I was played like a harp to a melody not of my choosing.”

Elrond: “It was entirely of your choosing. Sauron looked inside you, plucked the very song of your soul, note by note, making himself out to be exactly what you needed. “The Lost King” who could ride you to victory. You gave him everything he wanted and then thanked him for it.”

How did she “thanked him for it”? Dare to elaborate on that, Elrond?? What did you see at Eregion?

Elrond is strengthening Galadriel’s fear of “all of it” being a lie. Because the “King of the Southlands” plot was a lie and a deception. “Halbrand” was not the heir, and even though he never outright said he was before leaving Númenor, he still chose to play that part and follow Galadriel to Middle-earth, instead of staying on Númenor in servitude.

And this “King of the Southlands” plot has been going on since their first interactions on the raft, as well, as talks of “an army”.

Galadriel outright tells him “leave the army to me”, and that’s what happens in the next episodes, going behind his back and getting Queen Regent Míriel (+ Númenor) involved in her plan of marching to the Southlands and wage war on Sauron.

In 1x05, everything is being arranged to set sail, and Sauronbrad is not happy about this: “You used me. After I all but begged you to let me be.” But Galadriel is more concerned about her success of getting the army she wanted: “I have just convinced Númenor to send five ships and 500 men to aid your people and place a crown upon your head. Many might assume you used me.”

“Find another head to crown.” And he only agrees to follow her after the forge scene in the same episode when she reveals to him: “The company I led mutinied against me. My closest friend conspired with the king to exile me. And each of them acted as they did... Because I believe they could no longer distinguish me... from the evil I was fighting.” And this is personal to him because the same thing happened with Adar, as he and the Orcs could not longer distinguish him from Morgoth, and his masterplan is to heal Middle-earth from his corruption, after all. And he chooses deception, the “King of the Southlands” persona.

Fastforward to Galadriel mindset; she wanted an army to go to the Southlands because of the “mark”, which was branded on her brother’s corpse and whose meaning she discovered in Númenor “House of Lore”, in 1x03: “It is a map of the Southlands. It is as Halbrand said. It is the Black Speech. It speaks not only of a place, but a plan. A plan by which to create a realm of their own, where evil would not only endure, but thrive. A plan to be enacted in the event of Morgoth's defeat... By his successor.” And she believes Sauron has returned and needs to be stopped before this plan is fulfilled.

(In Season 2, this mark was revealed to be the “Mark of Adar”)

Right in 2x02, while the Elves are discussing war preparations, one of the commanders says: “Our spies indicate that Sauron was last seen traveling into Mordor. We believe he intends to supplant Adar and claim his armies. If we move swiftly, we may be able to crush two spiders with one boot.”

And this, once again, makes Galadriel think Sauron’s goal was to get an army to overthrow Adar and take his place, back in Season 1 (which is what he’ll do in Season 2, after all, which resonates in her saying “all this… was your design from the beginning”). But he also needed the rings of power, the “power of flesh” he has been seeking for centuries, so Galadriel also believes he used her to get to Eregion, and to Celebrimbor.

Now, his offer in 1x08: “I would make you a queen. Fair as the sea and the Sun. Stronger than the foundations of the earth.” The simple explanation is that Galadriel doesn’t believe this was an honest offer. Since she thinks everything was a deception from this part, this “offer” wasn’t legit, and Sauron didn’t mean it. And this is why Galadriel doesn’t even consider it when talking to Adar about what Sauron promised her.

And this is also why Sauron said this in 2x08:

This is him saying his offer was legit and he truly meant it. “I would have placed a crown upon your head”. And Bear McCreary said it best, about his proposal in 1x08: “Tolkien fans will recognize much of this dialog from Galadriel’s unforgettable scene with Frodo at her Mirror, in both the book and the film of The Fellowship of the Ring, making clear that this scene with Sauron on the raft will haunt her for thousands of years.”

Why the past tense? Probably because of Sauron’s poem: “One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.”

[androgynousevilqueen]

If I can nerd out here for a minute, I just want to thank fanfiction (specifically Star Trek and LoTR) for teaching me about sex as a teenager in the early 2000's. 😆

Fanfic has changed a lot since then, and it's interesting to see such a decrease in what we would've called "smut fics". Obviously there's still plenty of adult material, BUT

We used to have folks building entire websites just to have space for all our most NC-17 rated fics for our fandom. For LoTR, we had the Library of Moria (which still exists!!) which focused a lot on Men and Elves and even got really into the more obscure characters from Silmarillion and such. Harry Potter had The Restricted Section, now gone (shut down with lawsuits by JK, big surprise).

And then there was my favorite - the Hobbit Smut Challenges. It's now archived in AO3, but it used to have its own website, plus LiveJournal. All hobbits, all the time.

Ok, I know some of y'all might be like "hobbits aren't sexy" and if so, fine, have your opinion. But mine is that hobbits, especially our four boys from LoTR, would be by far the most fun to have sex with out of the entire cast of characters.

Cozy, simple hedonism, genuinely expressed love and warmth, and playful silliness mixed with the most incredible moxie and "I will go with you on this incredibly dangerous mission because you're my friend and Goonies never say die", plus an idyllic, lush landscape to heal your soul?

I mean, sign me up for a hobbitpile. I'm so poly for them.

Plus those bastards Merry and Pippin are up for all kinds of shenanigans, both in and out of bed.

[madwomansapologist]

mint chip — how did they court their lover? with the lotr characters (aragorn, legolas, boromir, arwen, eowyn)

mint chip — how did they court their lover?

⤷ with: aragorn, legolas, boromir, arwen and eowyn

⤷ thank you for your support! it means a lot 💙

aragorn

Aragorn often see himself as someone unworthy of anything he desires. They way people see him and how he perceive himself can be so different. And when he understood you had his heart on your palm, Aragorn swear to never act on it. He wouldn't want to bother you, or worse: to describe that you see him the same Aragorn does.

When it comes about Aragorn, you would have to act first. To make him understand that you don't see him as a unworthy men, but as a promising one. To make him understand that people aspire to be like him. If you make Aragorn understand that you want him, that you don't feel disgusted by him, only then he would be able to court you.

And he would be the kindest. He act like a king, even tho he don't believe he deserves to be one. He would be polite, tell you stories about his quests, protect you as if you already have agree to be his. No one would dare treat you badly when he's around.

Aragorn don't see yet, but he was born to rule. And you will rule beside him.

legolas

Legolas is a noble. Not only a noble, but the rightfull heir of Mirkwood. That means he was trained in more than combat or what it takes to rule. Legolas was trained about how to act around people, taught how to deal with enemies, and learned how to properly court his lover. With that being said, he would ignore all this knowledge the moment he understood what he feels for you.

It wouldn't take long for him to understand that he loves you. Legolas is guided by his heart, don't matter if people like that or not. If when he looks at you he feel warm, if when he talks to you he feels at home, if when he's away from you his life fall apart: Legolas knows he's in love. So he says it.

Just like that. Don't matter when, don't matter where, Legolas will simply say it. He's polite, Legolas wouldn't make you uncomfortable or overcross your bondaries, but he wouldn't think twice before saying it.

He will court you, and Legolas have a elve's patience. He will engage in conversations, ask your opinion on different subjects, and always in a light tone. Legolas will try his best to make you laugh, specially during dificult moments. And he don't need to worry about how long it will take for you to call him meleth. After all, time isn't a thing he lack of.

boromir

No one could say that Boromir don't know what he wants of life. He's a decided man, a hero for his people, and he would never go against what he think is part of the greater good. Boromir is so kind, so aware of the dangers and consequences of war, that the One Ring used his honor against him.

At first, it may seem that Boromir is not subtle at all. He would never do anything to disrespect you, far from that, is just that something on his face screams that he's sure you both will end up together.

He's confident that you would see him as his people do. As someone brave, intelligent and righteous. Boromir see you as you are, and he fall in love because he could understand your soul. He won't spare efforts to make you feel the same.

Boromir will bring you flowers every time he sees you. He would always chose different types, in hope that one day you tell him which one is your favorite. And whenever you need or want to stay in Gondor, Boromir will show you the gardens. He once heard that flowers had meanings, Boromir hopes you can understand the true meaning of this gift.

And it's wrong, so wrong, but it would be worse if Boromir lied to himself: the day he had to fought a creature in front of you, when he effortless defended you from something wicked, that was one of the best days of his life. To think that you may see him as a hero, your hero, made him blush.

So, yes, Boromir's feelings can be quite easy to understand. But isn't this a great thing? Boromir is showing you what he wants from life. And it's you.

arwen

Arwen may not know the world, or understand a great amount of things, but she knows her heart. When her father say that she's naive, Arwen understand that she just feel thing deeply. The only way this could be a mistake of hers was if Arwen buried her feeling and tried to ignore them. But to act on them, to search for her own happyness, will never be something she'll regret.

When Arwen understood that she loves you, at first she'll spend most of her time thinking. How do you feel about her? Would you ever feel the same away? How life, eternal or not, would be if she chose to spend it with you?

But as soon as she undertood her heart's desire, Arwen would stop imagining. She would join you for walks, compliment you and made sure there was no way of you thinking she was already with someone. Arwen won't be too foward, as she don't knows your feeling about her, but she does make clear that she's here.

If you ever need advice or someone to talk to, Arwen will gadly assume this position. She would do anything to know you better and help you with whatever you need. She's there. You can count on her. And If you ever need to be defended, well, she can do that too!

eowyn

Eowyn wants so much of life. She aspect to be brave for her kind, to rule as fairly as her father did, and to honor those who believe on her. If you help her with that, if you hear her dreams and treat them like reality, then you made your way to her heart. And if you live there, then it's only fair that Eowyn lives in yours too.

As we all seen, Eowyn won't be stopped from trying to conquering your heart. She'll be close to you, search for you to talk to, help you with whenever you need. It will obvious, but it's her intention. There is no need in trying to look like she don't want you. What good could it made?

Even if you don't see to feel the same way about her, it won't stop Eowyn. She can wait. She can wait until you look at her with love in your eyes. She'll do her best as a ruler and warrior, and part of it will be for you. To make you be proud of her. To honor your trust. And Eowyn will wait how long it takes to have your heart.

if you enjoyed, please reblog! i promise it makes a difference ♡

@ madwomansapologist.tumblr.

[eri-pl]

I'm having thoughts again.

About how "Men have a strange virtue to shape their fate outside of the Music" and how this is what made it possible for them to do whatever-happenned-with-them-and-Morgoth, and the Elves don't and that's why they never did Morgoth worshipping, because they simply don't have the possibility in them (ok i was not thinking this earlier but it came to my keyboard and ...this sounds like a possible explanation?). and yet.

—and yet. Allegedly (as in: the whole fandom knows it's true) the Elves aren't going to have a worse overall ending than the Men. I mean, Finrod thinks so, so of course it would be true. Yes there is nuance here, but still I say it's not worse even if less glorious.

I am having feelings. Of the "but it is not fair!" kind. And--- yea. I know. I know. Also I am probably having too much feelings about the fandom again.

But anyway this is somewhat weird.

And also also, the elves being unable to fall badly enough (enough for what?) explains a lot.

They are able to make some bad decisions (see: Doom of the Noldor) and maybe even so much that it does interfere with the things mentioned in LaCE (see: Celegorm and/or Maeglin, depending how you read them), but.

But I really don't think the Oath of Feanor could work as intended, unless there was some explicit exception (as in: Fefe can do a thing in a Mannish way because he's so special; see: Lulu but she was the positive version). And it would definitely work (as in: things like that have worked, yes, i know not fully the same but similar enough for me) for Men.

And... hmmpf. Not fair. I mean, yes, but also the Elves are getting things both ways, that's how it feels— I'm not sure if I'm wrong in the logic of it, or just wrong in trying to apply too much scrutiny to Tolkien's worldbuilding — again — even though I know I cannot expect perfect coherence from a secondary world and Tolkien did better than any other writer anyway.

OK maybe the Elves do have the possibility, maybe they just didn't.

But there still is the thing about the oath of Feanor and can it work and why not. And also... I can see why Tolkien writes the oath as much less of a problem than whatever-Men-did, but to me it does feel similar… And I could argue with solid arguments that it's just one step below. So.

And I don't have a problem with Fefe being immortal; I'm not doing the Atanamir arguement here.

But the Men are much more problematic (in behaviors) than the Feanorians, even Celegorm, which clearly shows that yes, Men can mess themselves up much more (see: the initial quote).

Also I feel like the Men are inherently more interconnected than the Elves. I need to think more about it, because it gets strangely unpredictable on the edge, when Men connect to Elves and start meddling with their fates too (see: Beren, Tuor, but also the whole Athrabeth situation however much you want to read into it) and it's ... it seems like they can only meddle with them in positive ways. Often sad, but positive in the end. The Men cannot break the Elves (in the way the early Men broke themselves and the whole species), or at least their ability to interfere with the Elves in negative ways is much much lesser than in positive ways. (Elu Thingol would disagree but his opinion is invalid.)

And... well, that's great but kind of out-of-the-blue.

OK maybe not maybe this counts as foreshadowed, in the part of Ainulindale where Melkor gets told off and that he can't make something really actually problematic in the end.

Maybe that's a case of this.

Anyway, I need to think more about Elves:Men and the sibling dynamics. The Men are the younger sibling yes, but in a way they are both the bad younger sibling from some stories and the good younger sibling from fairy tales.

Maybe this whole things is just TLDR: Men are chaotic and wildcard-y? Huh. A very simple summary for such a long and rambly post.

[mercsmemes]

Tales from the Group Chat

“What are the Deep Roads if not the highways of Thedas?”

���Listen we’ve been over this: you can’t make a guy with a God complex top.”

“I’m sorry about your toilet.”

“The child must learn she isn’t worthy of unicorns.”

“Sorry, he wasn’t a random vampire. He was also a mime.”

“Why ask women when you could just be a man with an opinion?”

“I saw a space cowboy and it’s my duty, nay, PRIVILEGE to ride.”

“You bring geese into an argument to win it.”

“Murder attempts are how Orlesian nobles say hello.”

“I can excuse wanting to end the world as we know it but I draw the line at Cullen fucking.”

“Perhaps the real Talking Darkspawn was the Warden all along.”

“One day soon the dawn will come? Haha I think you will find the dawn comes every day.”

“I can’t believe Mythal was the first gamer girl.”

“He doesn’t deserve to be ingested.”

“It’s ok, I’m from the Qun-ion.”

“Whenever I see it I’m like bored but also offended by how bored I am.”

“Meredith Orsino Malcom [rando’s last name] you were named after all the people I blame for my trauma.”

“Peak Templar is Otto investigating a Veil issue and not the mages enslaving people like 20 feet away.”

“Every pair of shoes I own are clown shoes.”

“Gaslight gatokeep girlboss.”

“Accidentally killed my husband because I thought I had healing hands equipped but I actually didn’t so instead I punched him to death.”

“I tell her that I do not control the cricket and she does not believe me.”

“Would you rather have Goofy as your Psychopomp who takes you to the afterlife OR the obstetrician who delivers your baby?”

“Me, quietly: dickscourse.”

“Animals do not have money.”

“Your own fault for having feet, really.”

“Bring ravioli, babe.”

“Science lesbian is so vicious.”

“Spoilered because one has a dismembered penis for some reason.”

“Do not stand by my keyblade and weep. I am norted, I do not sleep.”

“When I die make sure I have cameltoe.”

“Women are completely hairless beings that don’t poop.”

“Are you calling me a Fereldan?”

“I can’t believe sex and Irn Bru were invented in the same land. Possibly in the same lake.”

“Simple and queer is the way we’re all feeling tonight.”

“Cullen had clearly started a raw meat diet and needed cover.”

“With the power of bisexuality we can make liking men feel gay.”

“You ask [name] to dom for you and he says yes but he starts crying and it kind of ruins the vibe.”

“I am haunted by the utter fruitlessness of making cornflakes.”

“Trophy spouses don’t have to be older or younger, just super hot.”

“All elves are just Solas running around really fast.”

“Accept the truth into your heart: Tevinter doesn’t season their spaghetti and they only have smooth penne pasta.”

“Antivans Mad at Food blog confirmed.”

“Meredith the PEZ dispenser.”

“What if the real handspider was the friends we made along the way.”

“So, no dongus?”

“WHEREwolf!”

“Sometimes the real Agents of Fen’Harel are the people modern society has crushed along the way.”