#westeros would simply never accept her too

[sunfyrisms]

anti targ restoration because i don’t think dany, a girl who has never been to westeros, should sit on the iron throne. i just don’t think that’s how her story ends. i actually think it’s so tragic that viserys so deeply believed it was his to rule, but was never cut out for it. i think dany is the same way. she believes him, then gains the same mindset as him, because it’s what she has heard all her life. but i just cannot imagine a possible scenario where she becomes queen of the seven kingdoms. i’ve seen people say that it wouldn’t make sense for her as a character not to, because she is the antithesis of those who have come before her, and the women of house targaryen have suffered and she’s supposed to avenge them in some way by becoming queen. i don’t know where her story will end, but i don’t think she’ll become queen.

[applepie2523]

"I feel like some of this criticism towards the show being pro-Black is unfounded, but there is truth to the sentiments, specifically in how key moments in the narrative have been framed and brushed over, while similar things have been focused on in a different manner

For example, the dichotomy between focusing on the girl Aegon rapes vs completely disregarding the person that Daemon killed to let Laenor escape his life

We get a lot of focus on Dyana and get showcased Alicient's veneer of hypocrisy- she who veils herself in religion but covers up her son's heinous crimes. Then we get a scene of her disparging her son for his vile behavior and hugging Helaena for the shame Aegon brings to others and his own marriage.

On the other hand, when Rhaenyra and Daemon plan for the fake-death of Laenor, the guy Daemon kills is a completely throwaway moment, and the focus of the scene is how there plan allows for Laenor to leave Westeros behind and live a happy life

Simply put, these two scenes where two random, "unimportant" people are victimized are presented in completely different manners which provoke completely different reactions from the audience. With the Laenor scene, the audience walks away happy because Rhaenyra and Daemon don't kill Laenor like it seemed they would from their speech and the focus is triumphant and just. The dead guy doesn't matter in the slightest. With Dyana, it completely shatters any sort of character arc or sympathy that Aegon may have had and firmly places him- who is the figurehead of the Greens- to be a character that is reviled by the audience and whose downfall is something to look forward to. Who the hell can even possibly support a rapist? Murder is something audience members can forgive, justify and accept- rape never ever

There are other moments throughout the show that are along the same lines. For example, giving Rhaenyra the opportunity to propose a marriage between Jace and Helaena as a peace offering that is rejected places her in a more sympathetic light as someone who was genuinely trying to reach out and make amends. I understand that this is an adaption and things are justifiably changed, but in the books, Corlys immediately has Jace and Luke bethroed to Baela and Rhaena so his true blood ends up on the throne and the insult of trying to pass off Strong bastards as true-born Velaryons is lessened. By making Corlys literally not care about blood and names, it gives the show an opportunity to make Rhaenyra look better

They also remove some of the brutality and ruthlessness of Rhaenyra. Instead of ordering the death of Vaemond and feeding his corpse to Syrax for insulting the parentage of her children, Vaemond is killed in court. And although violent and sudden, it is framed in a "good" way to the audience, since it directly follows the amazing Viserys sequence of coming to the throne and defending his daughter, along with the incredibly touching Daemon-Viserys moment of helping him to the throne

Likewise, the "questioned sharply" line following Aemond's mutilation is not framed in a way to express to the audience that Rhaenyra meant for Aemond to be tortured. She says he must be questioned sharply and then that transitions to Viserys simply questioning Aemond

This is kind of what, for me, makes the show pro-Black. If I had to characterize the show, I would say it's pro-Black and goes out of its way to make Alicient sympathetic. But overall it doesn't care too much for the Greens

I also feel like they slightly undermined the story that they themselves were trying to tell and set-up prior to the episode 6 timeskip and change-up of the actors. The show was clearly setting up that the primary motivation of the Greens was Alicient fearing for the safety of her children and family from Rhaenyra (with the rift starting by Rhaenyra's lies at the Godswood and Otto's departure in the rain) and the danger that Daemon posed

This would have required the Blacks and Daemon to be more unsavory and vicious in the post-timeskip episodes than they ended up being at all, because the show went out of its way to avoid that kind of stuff. For example- and this is a huge point that I think has been overlooked- the whole point of Rhaenyra and Daemon faking the death of Laenor was to signal to their enemies- ie Alicient and the Greens- that they were dangerous and should not be messed with.

The death of Laenor should have struck some fear in Alicient over what the two newly weds could have done to her own children. But narratively, literally the only consequence of Laenor's death was to introduce some temporary tension between the Blacks and Rhaenys that is ultimately resolved in the very same episode. The potential impact it should have had on Alicient is just not present

Another consequence that was completely ignored was the impact Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage should have had on Viserys. It was already set up that he greatly disapproved of whatever was going on between the two of them in the earlier episodes, but there was no payoff to that once they got married. In the books, this is what causes Viserys to kick Rhaenyra out of court, but the show instead wanted to focus on the positive relationship between Rhaenyra and Viserys and Daemon and Viserys in his last episode

Now I'm not saying that that decision was a bad one- it was really touching and incredibly emotional- but paired up with everything else, I think the post-timeskip show has definitely tilted the narrative to be pro-Black and undermine what earlier parts of the story was trying to set up. It's doing this while also trying to maintain some sympathy for Alicient

The one very stand out thing that they have done is Aemond's character though. Obviously he will be a villain, but they've done an incredibly good job at making him sympathetic and understandable (I will fiercely maintain that he has done absolutely nothing wrong so far in the show). I wish that were extended to the rest of the Greens as they could make them the obvious villains they should be in the narrative, while still making them sympathetic and understandable." -- by a random person on the r/asoiaf subreddit

[biwitchenergyz]

My Top Three Issues with House of The Dragon (pt.1)

Issue #1. The Poor Use of Dragon Dreams and The Prophecy of Ice and Fire. 

In the first season, we are introduced to the idea of Aegon the Conqueror's dream when Viserys passes on this knowledge to Rhaenyra. This dream predicting the coming of white walkers is a good connection between House of the Dragon and Game of Thrones, but by the second season, I wished it was never mentioned. Seemingly out of nowhere, Rhaenyra begins to back away from war on the premise that it will destroy the realm. She discusses the prophecy with Jacaerys as a way of explaining her reluctance to fight.

In season one, Rhaenyra did not have the same feelings. She seemed to revel in the knowledge that Viserys shared this information with her alone, but it never affected her decision to gather allies and retake her throne. Too much focus on the prophecy messes with the overall plot because it forces Rhaenyra to seem more of a sage thinking of the distant future than a character actively at war for her throne.

The prophecy explains her hesitance for battle, but it should never have been so prominent in the first place because it takes away from the problem and focuses on something that does not matter at this moment. Not only is it too concerned with the future, but it also doesn't make sense for Rhaenyra’s character established in Season One.

Rhaenyra, in season one, is willful, ambitious, and spoiled to an expected amount because she is the heir. She does not show any care for the common folk, instead insisting multiple times that they will simply have to accept her and that their opinions are irrelevant. She is haughty and is shown mocking Lady Redwyne and enjoying the violence of the tourneys. As an adult, she is glad when her father declares that the tongue of anyone who speaks against her and her children will be removed. She does not care about her little brother's injuries, and she challenges everyone with real velaryon blood so that she can seat her son on the driftwood throne.

This shows her ambition, cunning, strategy, and ability to use force when necessary. She is motivated by her claim to the throne and her children's claims to anything they want. This makes her so powerful in the first season; this makes us want her to get the throne. But we also know that with her spoiled nature, the smallfolk are not the reason she wants to rule, so why should she care about a prophecy that seems so distant. She needs to sit on the throne to make any change, not sulk. If the prophecy is why she hesitates, it does more harm than good.

Similarly, Alys Rivers and Helaena also create the problem of present vs future moments. Alys and Helaena are incredible characters, but by the second season, Helaena’s prophecies go from cryptic to ridiculously blunt. Her final speech to Aemond, though powerful and loved by many viewers, falls flat for me. Where is the girl who whispered, “he will have to close an eye” or “There is a beast beneath the board?”

Not only has her right to emotions been completely stripped from her character by destroying the blood and cheese scene and then forcing her to move on by the next episode, but now even her Cassandra-like nature is removed and replaced with someone who sees the future, not just in strange dreams, but in vivid detail. Aemond does not need to know that Aegon will rule again; he does not need to know that he dies in God's eye because it would make no sense for him to continue fighting if he knew the outcome of everything.

Similarly, Alys revealing the ENTIRE future to Daemon was pointless. Daemon seeing Danerys should mean nothing to him at this point. From his perspective, she is just another Targaryen with a dragon; the unique thing is that three dragons are with her, but at this point, there are multiple Dragons in Westeros; her bringing dragons back to life does not hold significance for Daemon because Dragons have not died. If anything, knowing the future and the ruin of House Targaryen would have made him withdraw from battle or fight to put himself on the throne instead of running to Rhaenyra, who, in his vision, sits on the throne and leads to the fall of House Targaryen.

The show is trying too hard to connect with Game of Thrones when these things are unnecessary. House of The Dragon is set in Westeros with many Targaryens; they do not need to know all the future events, the long night, or anything established in a Game of Thrones. Not everyone needs to see the future. Helaena and Alys are unique because they know things that others do not. The extent of what they know is questionable, but Alys can see far into the future, and Helaena experiences dreams or visions that may not always be specific. If everyone knows what the future holds, then Alys and Helaena are just two more characters with no desire for war or to sway in either direction. 

In the books, and even in Season One, nobody knew what the future held besides perhaps Helaena. That is why they knew that crowning different people would be an act of war, so why do we suddenly not want to finish what has begun? Both sides have lost children, and where they should haunt the narrative, they are hardly mentioned again. Suppose the loss of these children is not enough to motivate the factions to war, then knowing that the future is destined for ruin probably won't help. The Dance of the Dragons is meant to be a series of unfortunate and horrible events that lead to the ruin of a once-powerful house. This has nothing to do with the white walkers, the mother of dragons, or even the Lannister/Baratheon on the throne because none of that is in the near future, and none of it changes the present moment.

Perhaps Alys has seen all of this, and that is what makes her such an eccentric figure, quite different from the gothic shadow I was expecting; maybe instead of showing Daemon all these things that don't change his fate, she could simply continue taunting him and reminding him of his own demons rather than the demons of the future.

Perhaps Helaena sees the future in prophetic visions and strange dreams. Maybe she is doomed to know things and never be believed, but if she knows too much and shares too much, then what significance does she have besides telling everyone how things will end despite them never being able to change it? Helaena should continue to be the prophetess who can still be taken by surprise and is still helpless to stop what is out of her control. This is what should push her to the brink of insanity, existing in so many worlds and yet never knowing what is happening in your own.

The future of House Targaryen does not matter if they do not go to war. If they stall, nobody will sit on the throne; if they fight, there is a chance that one of them will become the realm's protector. The building blocks for war have been set, and dwelling over prophecy and prophetic dreams that have nothing to do with their current situation will not make a difference. Blood has been shed, and nobody should know what to expect, but everyone knows something must be done. The prophecy and the dreams are great, to a point, that point being that only two people in the world know what the future holds, and while one wishes to stop it and the other merely observes, everything will continue to the peril of the Targaryens.

[thevelaryons]

How is Corlys so dismissive of Joffrey and Rhaena!? 🥲 Theyre his grandkids too. Luke never knew a thing of sailing but Corlys was okay with him and he was same age as Joffrey too.

Sometimes, there is no making sense of bad writing, specifically where it concerns characters saying/doing something only because the plot demands it. In this case, Corlys is only saying what he does because the writers need him to push his bastard son as the new heir to Driftmark since that’s a plot point. However, the writers have clearly changed the whole context around it, so now Corlys’ actions will lack all logic.

When it comes to Rhaena, what Corlys says is very unnecessarily harsh. Her not having a dragon is hardly a big deal because Velaryons aren’t even a dragonrider family for the most part. Rhaena not having any knowledge of the sea isn’t a dealbreaker either because she can always learn. Luke was younger when Corlys was calling him heir and just like Rhaena, Luke also didn’t know anything about seafaring. I keep seeing fans say Corlys is being misogynistic towards Rhaena but he isn’t actually dismissing her on account of her gender. And the thing is Corlys IS a misogynist! So there was a reason right there for him to dismiss Rhaena (that even other lords of Westeros would readily accept). Instead his arguments are just random irrelevant details that don’t hold up to scrutiny.

With Joffrey, he is presently Corlys’ heir in the show. It does not matter that he is a boy of six because as long as he is acknowledged as Laenor’s legal son, he remains heir to Driftmark (six year old Rickon Stark is considered the legal heir to Winterfell by Northern lords so the young age is not a disqualifying factor and the potential rival Stark claimants are all siblings NOT uncles or aunts). Addam & Alyn are obviously going to be Corlys’ sons in the show (therefore, Joffrey’s uncles). Again, the age factor does not matter here because under the laws of male primogeniture that Westerosi lords adhere to, sons come before brothers. Laenor was Corlys’ eldest son and his original heir. After Laenor, it is his sons (who are still alive and legally considered Velaryons). After them, it would be Laenor’s brothers. Corlys cannot just pick a heir (in the book he even explicitly tells Rhaenyra that these traditions have to be followed and that she is merely an exception because of her father, the King). If it was simply a matter of picking and choosing your own heir, then Randyll Tarly would not have to go to the effort of forcing Samwell Tarly to join the Night’s Watch; he could’ve just named the younger son as heir. Nor would Tywin Lannister be seething over having Tyrion Lannister as his legal heir. He could’ve easily dismissed Tyrion’s claim for another Lannister. Jeyne Arryn was able to name Joffrey Arryn as her heir because the previous treasonous actions of Arnold Arryn had left him locked up as a prisoner (and yet many Vale lords still viewed Arnold’s line as the rightful one because of the laws of inheritance).

In the upcoming episodes, it looks like Corlys is being set up to dismiss Joffrey as his heir to make his own bastard son the new heir instead. But in order to do that, Corlys has to first publicly denounce Joffrey as a bastard or some other excuse (an heir cannot be dismissed just because they lack competence in the family business or because they are young; if such was the case, the lords of Westeros would riot over the threat this ruling poses to their own young heirs). Even if Corlys does not publicly denounce Joffrey, just by dismissing Joffrey’s claim for his own sons (therefore throwing the line of succession into disarray), Corlys sends the message that Joffrey is a bastard who has no right to inheritance. By extension, his older brother must surely be a bastard as well therefore undermining Jace’s position as Prince of Dragonstone/Heir to the Iron Throne. With those two then being viewed as bastards publicly, it also announces to the lords of Westeros that Rhaenyra is guilty of high treason and as a result, has no claim to the Iron Throne. If that’s Corlys’ true intention, well, okay then! Otherwise, he’s just creating a whole new political conflict IN THE MIDDLE OF A SUCCESSION WAR.

As it is, with these writers’ track record, none of this will actually matter. Any potential problems will be hand waived away (just like how the Silent Five/Vaemond’s sons were erased). It’s obvious that HOTD doesn’t care to explore the legality behind the characters’ actions. Whatever excuse Corlys uses in the show, it will have no bearing on the worldbuilding (my guess is he’ll use the idea that Joffrey is too young). I’d love to be proven wrong but these writers haven’t shown anything meaningful in how the competing claims are handled (still can’t believe show!Alicent was motivated by a misunderstanding 😂😂).

I’m actually starting to understand now why show!Corlys is described as a politically incompetent person by the people working on HOTD. If this is the stunt he’s going to pull, it’s going to be the height of stupidity.

Of course, this wouldn’t even be a problem if the show just followed the book. In that, Corlys passes Addam off as his grandson and has him legitimized as a reward for claiming a dragon (dragonseeds were promised lands/lordship/etc) because that is the only legal way he could be Corlys’ heir without him publicly denouncing Joffrey. It’s actually a really clever loophole. Without it, the whole situation becomes a mess.

[horizon-verizon]

Netty’s erasure is being justified by some with the excuse that it would be problematic to depict a young Black girl in a relationship with an older white man and then be used to create conflict between two white characters. But there was an easy and obvious solution to that problem which has been provided by the author himself in F&B: The theory of Daemon having a paternal relationship with Nettles, be it as her biological father or father figure. They could have shown her as a child from an affair he had long ago with whom he tries to connect. Or, had they been more creative, he could have been a mentor to her and grown to care for her because of her loyalty and because she reminded him of his own children with whom he had no conflict whatsoever in canon. Given how they lose Luke, Viserys, and Jace in quick succession, it would make sense for him to be protective of her. But Condal and Hess would never opt for those routes simply because it would amount to admitting that Daemon - for whom they harbour hatred so visceral as if he stole their girlfriends, left them penniless on the streets, and kicked their dogs – is a human being capable of emotion and reason. It would wound their ego. There was absolutely no need to make up drama between him and his daughters just to force a ‘redemption arc’ when he never needed one.

But it is rather concerning to see how they would rather mess with the canonical characterizations of more than one female character, sideline them and outright erase them, how they would rather subject them to gratuitous violence than accept that this one male character they’re unhealthily obsessed with vilifying, is not this one dimensional monster they have made him up to be in their minds. The little girls who played Baela and Rhaena as kids had their scenes deleted and the actress who played Rhaena had to make a post about it on Instagram. Baela had one significant scene and dialogue in S1 with Rhaenys which gave a glimpse to her character that was deleted. What all scenes had in common was that they portrayed a softer side to Daemon and proved that he cared for his daughters and was involved in their lives. Other deleted scenes include Daemon proposing a toast for Viserys because it was decided that one improvised scene where Daemon expressed his love for his brother by crowning him would be more than enough and the one where he mourns Visenya which got edited out. The pattern is evident. Most female characters in the story are disposable and interchangeable for C&H and not worth putting any effort or thought. They are treated as plot devices meant to be used to further the arcs of the male characters the writers love or to prove a point against the male characters they hate. They are seldom prioritized. Maybe that’s why Black Aly was robbed off her moment in the Battle Of the Burning Mill which happens offscreen. Her presence would have made the Blackwoods appear like the badasses they are in canon and defeated C&H’s plans to demonize them. Also because they can’t possibly have a woman have agency and engage in warfare out of her own freewill because wars are for men to wage while women need to preach peace :/

Now, if my predictions are correct, then Jeyne Arryn and the Vale subplot will be made all about Daemon too because of the made-up canon-defying murder of Rhea Royce that was birthed by Condal’s galaxy brain. What a way to miss the point of that subplot from the book. The Vale alliance was never about Daemon but about Rhaenyra and the empathy Jeyne had for her cousin as a fellow woman whose inheritance was threatened by her male relatives. Her dislike for Daemon was overshadowed by her feelings of solidarity for Rhaenyra.

This show is such a droll tragedy that at times I wish they just stop pretending and accept it for what it is: The Adventures Of Historian and Philosopher Almond ft. Hugh the Greatest Family Man to have ever Family Manned in Westeros Hammer.

The pattern is evident. Most female characters in the story are disposable and interchangeable for C&H and not worth putting any effort or thought. They are treated as plot devices meant to be used to further the arcs of the male characters the writers love or to prove a point against the male characters they hate. They are seldom prioritized.

@deus-sema

Reminds me--and it is definitely connected to & fueled by the same principle of male centeredness--when SA and rape against women is used more to define a male character than to elucidate anyone on why men rape in fiction. It's either to signify a man who rescues said woman as "good"; the man who does it as "bad". And that's it. How does the woman feel and develop into the future with this incident, how does the community deal or not deal with the event and not just the rapist/would be rapist, what does anyone do to try to prevent it, etc., nothing.

Which underplays rape and gender violence as "a thing that happens" as if innate to human nature and not malleable behavior for the sake of creating character for males.

They are treated as plot devices meant to be used to further the arcs of the male characters the writers love or to prove a point against the male characters they hate.

In a recent reaction post to Epi 5, I said that the writers trying to make their version of Rhaenyra seem suppressed by her own council by making the "monarchs can't go into battle" thing an excuse to not deal with a woman make war instead of a pretty valid reason that had real life male monarchs not actually go to war themselves MOST of the time (the one who is meant to be the opposite of the fiery and proud Rhaenyra GRRM described but also a Rhaenyra who is trying her damdnest to be taking seriously or approved by the men around her as if that was who bk!rhaenyra was).

@thevelaryons said this in their post about how HotD writes Rhaenys and Corlys' relationship:

Yet despite all that, their relationship onscreen is still a loving one. Like I said, it’s a writing issue. Corlys and Rhaenys are clearly meant to be viewed as a loving couple but the central theme of HOTD is apparently that women are always victims of the men in their lives. Corlys as a man must fall into this in some way. But like always, the writers go overboard in their heavy-handed attempts to depict misogyny onscreen. So Corlys’ actions towards Rhaenys are such that there is a lack of respect but somehow there is love.

And they are coming from how HotD rewrote Rhaenys to be way too accepting of the Hull boys in her awareness when book!Corlys actually kept them away from anywhere Rhaenys herself might go to see them or discover them...bc she too didn't take what she and most noblewomen would see as insults to them of their husband's not only cheating but bringing their bastards around in the same spaces as their wives. Rhaenys was a Targ princess and very proud to be one.

Though Marilda is impressive as a human being (leading her own trad eboats later on), in the social context of these people I don't think noblemen would not take exception to not only their wives cheat on them but also cheat on them with any lower classed man or a stable boy and male readers not identify & recognize that as bringing shame to that man. Yes, men are socially graced to cheat, but noblewomen in Westeros still are expected to not have to raise his by-blows or have those bastards "sully" their own status by having them around. that's just the way things go, as those men love to say.

Then there is Daemon-at-Harrenhal trying to display his great leadership that he wants to prove to both Viserys and Rhaenyra that he was as capable of being a monarch/leader as he thinks they don't think he should be. Based on incompetence. Which is compounded by his bungling the Blackwoods and Brackens thing and thus endangering Rhaenyra's ability to get more soldiers...when bookwise, he doesn't perform any such stupidity and never tried to prove anything about his being able to be a competent king/independent agent to anyone. In fact he, like Jace, manages to collect many supporters from Rhaenyra with little problem. not only that, bk!Rhaenyra had an almost a ubiquitous and eager base in the Riverlands. These are CRITICAL changes made for shallow & logically inconsistent drama. Inconsistent bc we see Daemon and Rhaenyra have more or less a pretty settled marriage where Rhaenyra shows she had trusted Daemon to at least not betray her...which is why her later despair at his death and "betrayal" with Nettles was as intense as it was.

It reveals a pattern HotD makes of trying to poke fingers at misogyny while still being very sexist in how they do it by simplifying their men like Daemon and Corlys, try to overpunish and vilify Daemon, as well as how they pacified their female characters. It's all a distorted, very overly literal and unnuanced rewrite of the original story. But what else is new?

This is the story people want, right?

[darklinaforever]

Daemon in love? Excuse me you can't be serious.

Grooming her

Trying to ruin her reputation

Abandoning her half naked in a brothel

Flirting with Laena in front of her salad

Leaving her again at the funeral cause the man was walking away if she wouldn't chase him, nothing would have happened. He didn't speak to her nor cared of doing that

Making up the excuse he spared her cause she was a child meanwhile married Laena, who was younger than Rhaenyra

Finishing as fast as possible the sex with her, he literally never looked at her once or kissed her again while fucking her. Rhaenyra was more tender cause she was holding him tight, he 0, nothing

Ignoring her feeling bad while baby was coming, ignoring her screams, calling his name during their child miscarriage

Looking at her with disgust during the funeral of Visenya (who knows what he was thinking)

Yelling at her during the council cause she doesn't want go war

Choking her out cause of the prophecy. Almost KILLING her cause she couldn't literally breathe anymore and if he didn't stop he would have killed her!

And this is nothing yet, wait for S2 and have fun on watching how Daemon damage Rhaenyra in the name of the so called love named by you

Yall saying he's in love by watching glances of flirting while grooming and kisses is out of your mind. Be for fucking real!

As I said before, this has all been covered many times, but you don't accept my answers and act like a parrot.

Daemon is a gray character and his actions are therefore generally complex, not meant to simply be boiled down to purely good or purely evil, like the brothel scene. But again all you care about is pushing your evil groomer Daemon agenda. Once again, Daemon is a gray character and this book and show grooming story is bullshit :

Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men & monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, & so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light & darkness. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.

I've already literally said that this strangulation scene was stupid and incoherent and that, no, it's not because GRRM accepted this scene that it makes sense. GRRM also confirmed the last season of GOT with its ending and we often all talk about how stupid and incoherent it was and that GRRM himself said that its ending would be different from the show. Once again, books and show are not the same thing. Unless of course you are one of the imbeciles believing that Daenerys' behavior was consistent at the end of the series... In which case I would have enough information on your capacity for analysis. In fact, the simple fact that you repeat the grooming argument over and over proves it enough to me...

Also, once again you are complaining about me saying Daemon loves Rhaenyra, well then complain about the writers and directors who said that and also about Matt Smith. Are you planning to harass them too ?

Oh and for the :

"Finishing as fast as possible the sex with her, he literally never looked at her once or kissed her again while fucking her. Rhaenyra was more tender cause she was holding him tight he 0, nothing"

Here's what Daemon did during the love scene, even though he apparently didn't do anything or show any signs of tenderness...

Rhaenyra didn't try to kiss Daemon during their sex scene either ? As if that was proof of anything ? Like they hadn't kissed multiple times before with Daemon gently holding Rhaenyra's chin ? As if Daemon hadn't rested his forehead tenderly on hers ? As if he hadn't slowly loosened his dress ? As if he hadn't tenderly kissed and caressed her shoulders ? As if he hadn't held her face in his hands to look at her ? As if he hadn't squeezed her thigh in his hands ? As if he didn't caress her face again before resting his forehead on hers ? Oh and if you watch from 1 minute and 14 seconds to 1 minute and 17 seconds Daemon actually puts his arm under Rhaenyra to hug her too. Then as if the sex itself hadn't been slow and tender ? Saying that he's done with sex with her as soon as possible is the biggest bad joke I've seen. 😂

And then I repeat myself, but I don't care what happens to this already shitty and incoherent show. Even if Daemon cheat on Rhaenyra in the show, it will not impact the book because, small detail that you seem to ignore again and again, the book is not the show and the show is not the book, the canon of the book and the show canon are not the same thing. If Daemon cheats on Rhaenyra in the show, that won't be proof that he cheated on her in the book. It's you who seems to be in complete disillusionment repeating over and over again that you can't wait for the rest of the show to come out as if Daemon cheat Rhaenyra ever comes true was going to destroy me even though I don't fucking care basically. The book will still exist and from there, fuck you.

Also, no matter what happens, I will always have this magnificent musical composition for Daemyra :

And again, stop acting like you care about Rhaenyra's abuse. If that were the case you would be talking about Alicent and the Greens in general and above all, you would not proudly proclaim that you can't wait to see Daemon abuse Rhaenyra again and again in season 2. Seriously you are all completely sick...

Once again I recommend going to the tumblr of @la-pheacienne and of @horizon-verizon to educate you on what the character of Daemon and the Daemyra relationship really is. The posts of @stromuprisahat are also pretty good in general on Fire and Blood.

@aleksanderscult

[synchodai]

hello! loved your meta on inheritance and i have a question for you. haven’t even started this as a proper fic yet, mostly playing around in hypotheticals, so stick with me here! but i’ve been sketching out an au where rhaenyra transitions - both out of a personal non-binary inclination and in the hopes it will ease her acceptance as heir. other details include marrying alicent & daemon sperm donation but the actual QUESTION i had, lol, was: assuming prince rhaenyra is the accepted heir in this scenario, and he has two daughters, the elder of whom is not suited to/desiring the throne (probably helaena) and the younger of whom (probably my version of visenya?) is…. how would you, like. advise them as a family to move forward with that? what could they do to support both of their daughters, esp w regard to like… things viserys failed to do for rhaenyra?

and also, who would people suggest instead of their daughters to rule?

please feel free to ask follow ups i have described this so hastily and so late at night lol

Oh gosh, succession with trans heirs/monarchs is very interesting to speculate on. But judging by the details here, I'm gonna answer this based on these following scenarios:

SCENARIO #1: No one knows that Rhaenyra is trans. They have lived their life fully as a man and the fact that they don't have a cock is not known to anyone but their immediate family. Their secret is never uncovered.

This is the sneaky scenario, where all established rules of male-preferred primogeniture would be followed as normal save for the minor issue that the crown prince secretly doesn't have a cock. If the secret is never uncovered it the fic, there are several straightforward ways to have Visenya, the younger daughter, be heir over Helaena, the eldest.

Make Helaena a septa or silent sister: This is the most obvious choice and least disruptive to the monarchy's stabilty. Septas and silent sisters take vows of celibacy and take no titles, so this would be the female equivalent of making a son take the black/be a kingsguard/become a maester.

Banishment: Other methods of disinheritance would be to banish Helaena (she'd have to be accused of a crime worthy of it) or having Helaena herself run away (what Aegon II wanted to do in the show).

Witenagamot: This is what Jaehaerys I did and is basically the most fraught and complicated option because it's the monarch ceding power to their vassals. Viserys's mistake was expecting his vassals to just let him bend the law without any concessions on his end. Compare that to Jaehaerys who gave the power of choosing his heir to a council that had a pool of claimants to choose from. Any law only works if a society agree to follow and enforce it, so if you want to upturn an established law (like primogeniture in this case), you'll need the backing of many powerful people to go along with it lest you be branded a tyrant. However, beware the unintended consequences of giving more power to your vassals — it may start getting into their heads to collectivize, rebel, and/or usurp the current reigning monarch.

Tyranny: A monarch can always enforce their will through violence and subjugation. If someone questions Visenya's ascension, then simply punish them to make them shut up. This isn't recommended though, since it leads to riots, rebellions, coups, and just overall instability. (Oh, and it's kinda evil too.)

Murder: It's an option.

SCENARIO #2: Everyone knows Rhaenyra does not have a cock but are mostly okay with it.

In this scenario, Rhaenyra would be seen by most of the people in Westeros as a cross-dressing woman. There would be a loud portion of the population who are scandalized by this, but by itself, it's not necessarily a dealbreaker to them inheriting the throne. However, Alicent would never be acknowledged as queen because same-sex marriage does not exist in Westeros. Any children she has with Daemon will be considered bastards and not part of Rhaenyra's issue.

SCENARIO #3: Rhaenyra's being trans is never discovered but Helaena and Visenya being Daemon's biological children is.

In this case, both Helaena and Visenya will be removed from the line of succession for being bastard-born. However, Rhaenyra (or whoever is the monarch) can legitimize them, making them Daemon's children. This still wouldn't make them Rhaenyra's heirs as it would put them behind Daemon in the line of succession.

------

I'm assuming your fic is going with scenario #1, so I put the most detail there. If you were to ask me what Rhaenyra could do to avoid the mistake Viserys made, I would simply advise them to make Helaena septa (like her great-grandaunt Maegelle Targaryen). Once she becomes initiated as septa, she can return to the Red Keep if she wants to, since septas are not cloistered and are often part of highborn families' household. The only things Helaena loses (other than her claim to the Iron Throne) is the chance to get married, bear children, and own land. If for some reason Helaena doesn't want to be septa, that's only when I would go for the other more convoluted options.

Hope this answers your question! Good luck with your fic~

[lovedreamer11]

You people have no idea how deep my hatred for Alicent Hightower is.

Okay, let's start from the beginning. Alicent is the daughter of Lord Hightower's younger brother. From this we can conclude that her dowry was unlikely to be huge and the likelihood that she could marry the heir of a great house is extremely small. Perhaps her maximum is the third son of a great house or some minor lord. The likelihood that Alicent was raised to become the main woman of a large house is extremely small.

After Otto became Hand, he brought his family to court. It's logical. His son could find a job for himself in the capital, and this was an opportunity to marry his daughter (After all, Otto could not know that Aemma would die or that Viserys would like Alicent). I have my evil theory. Based on the fact that Alicent spent several years in the capital, remained unmarried at the age of eighteen, in the chronicles she was initially mentioned only as Jaehaerys’ nanny and the cause of the quarrel between Otto and Daemon (according to Mushroom), and was not mentioned as a bright and popular personality at court , then we can conclude that the “beautiful and well-mannered” Alicent Hightower was not liked by any man except Viserys.

At that time, Alicent was the first woman to become queen without having a drop of Valyrian blood. Lord Hightower's niece received something she could not even dream of a few years ago. She became the most powerful woman in Westeros, received dresses, jewelry, power. Her children were born into royalty and given the opportunity to become dragonriders. Viserys was still young and handsome at that time. He loved his second wife very much, never cheated on her, and the only few times Viserys refused his wife something was when he refused to make Aegon his heir or refused to allow Luke's eye to be cut out.

But what kind of life could Alicent have had if she had accepted Rhaenyra as an heir? There could have been a polite relationship between the stepdaughter and stepmother, Alicent would not have turned her children against her sister and, accordingly, she would not have to fear that after ascending to the throne, Rhaenyra would execute her brothers.

(What did she expect in canon? Alicent began scheming and veiledly insulting her stepdaughter ever since she realized that Rhaenyra remained the heir, turned her children against her sister and nephews, insulted Rhaenyra's children, and after Viserys' death she began whining: "Oh, my stepdaughter hates me and my children because I tried to ruin her life for twenty years. Now she is the queen and can execute me." This should have been thought about earlier, before she began to turn a ten-year-old girl against herself.)

Let's go back. If Rhaenyra and Alicent had respected each other, then after the death of Viserys, Alicent could have remained at court along with her older children and grandchildren. She lived the rest of her life in luxury, surrounded by her family. Aegon and Helaena would have gotten married anyway. But they would live peacefully at court. I think Rhaenyra would still want her eldest half-brother close with her to keep an eye on him. Helaena would simply be happy with her children. Aemond and Daeron were princes. They could live their lives the way they wanted. Princes could stay at court and live in luxury, go on trips, and marry a beautiful lady of noble birth.

But no. After her marriage to Viserys, Alicent felt a sense of power and did not want to let it go. It was not enough for her to be the king’s wife, she wanted to be the king’s mother too. And this is what her ambitions brought her to. Years later, in asoiaf, no one mentions the existence of Alicent Hightower. Her father remained in history as a failed hand. Just like no one remembers her younger children Helaena, Aemond and Daeron, and most often, when one of the characters mentions Aegon, they remember his cruelty when he killed his sister in front of her son. Alicent got what she deserved.

Every time I think about Alicent, all I can think about is how bitter and greedy she was from the very beginning. It is not surprising that Aegon and Aemond grew up to be cruel bastards, Daeron became an irresponsible and dependent loser, Helaena seemed to be saved by the blood of her father.

[martellspear]

This is a rant in its purest form.

It is just so convenient and dishonest to erase Rhaegar’s fault to what happened to Elia. And, as I will assume that Lyanna went willingly here, hers too. You can ship whatever you want, as gross as it is, that’s your problem, but it is ridiculous to turn your face away from what these two caused.

Tywin gave the order, but what caused the circumstances for that to be possible? I understand that if you’re a RL enjoyer you probably crafted your own version of the facts, but everything leads to Rhaegar’s obsession with the prophecy. He thought he would be the savior, then his children. Then, he didn’t want to push another pregnancy on Elia, meaning, from the context, he didn’t want her to die. He didn’t hate her as some make it seem, and if he did, that would be the last person I’d personally pair up with a character I say I like. If you hate one of the sweetest people to ever set foot on that hellhole that is Westeros, maybe the problem is you idk.

Tywin is to blame, of course, so is the Mountain. However, to say Rhaegar had nothing to do with it? PLEASE.

He is guilty not only for his family’s death but for Rickard and Brandon’s too. There were at least ten other routes they could’ve taken with this, love or not, but when their stans make up excuses for them, it just makes them seem beyond stupid. What do you mean they had no idea of what doing what they did would cause?

Also, while I am at it, wtf do you mean it’s wrong to call out prejudice against the dornish in Westeros? More than that, how can you say that when we have evidence and more evidence of how much these characters suffer in the hands of the court in spite of how high their station is? At least be honest. Like what you like but have the decency to recognize what is wrong with it.

The thing is, the second Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rickard and Brandon’s deaths are acknowledged as a direct consequence and not casualties of war, it stops being a romantic love story and it becomes the story of two selfish people drowning in their own hypocrisy. “I want to save the realm” x dooming it and his family, bringing war and despair; and “I can’t be with someone who does not respect me as a wife” x running away with a married man and father of two. If those deaths are recognized, their perfect characters are no longer perfect nor victims of the circumstances inflicted upon them; they’re the catalyst of disaster instead.

Also, it will never fail to make me laugh that some believe a second marriage would happen and Rhaegar would still get to be king. The Faith is not allowing it, much less would the Martell simply accept this. But imagine a scenario where Elia and her babies still die, so do Lyanna’s father and brother.

How do you go on with a relationship like that knowing that it was you and your partner that caused all of this to happen? Benjen and Ned? What do they think of their sister, who appears to simply not care about what happened to their family? Rhaegar has only Viserys and Dany now, what does he tell them? Dragonstone will be forever haunted by the memory of Elia and Rhaenys to him; imagine him walking around the Red Keep and accidentally finding one of Aegon’s toys? And now all he has is a baby that’s not what he expected, there is no silver haired Visenya.

How long until another war breaks? The Baratheons are insulted, the Martells are insulted, the king is the Mad King’s son and was reckless enough to start a war, he can’t be trusted, and the Targaryens don’t have dragons anymore.

Anyway, I just wanted to get it off my system, I am not even sure this is coherent because my thoughts just kept popping up as I wrote.

[esther-dot]

I have been reflecting on Jon's past book storyline and trying to reconcile the GoT series with asoiaf. Trying to pull out what is D&D's sad attempt at fanfiction from cannon. One of my conclusions is that Daenerys cannot be Jon's sacrifice for love. All of Jon's most secret hopes and desires are the exact things Daenerys cannot give him. A throne? he doesn't want it. Lust? already had that lesson with Ygritte. Power? It's a burden of responsibility for him not an end. Children? She is barren.

I agree that Jon isn’t power hungry, but to me, the point of him being legitimate or the temptation that Dany might offer isn’t power or a throne, rather, acceptance by society, having the shame he’s burdened all his life eased. For a guy who has been perceived a certain way all of his life, distrusted through no fault of his own, all of his childhood made to feel inferior, viewed as a threat, to then be presented with some form of legitimacy, possibly the why of his birth....well, it can’t erase the pain, but it would lock into all of it and say, “They were wrong about you. You were loved, you were wanted, you were the hope for your house, not a threat to it...” I mean, that is some sweet, sweet poison. Dany had that vision of Rhaegar, imagine her, the last Targaryen, offering that to Jon.

I don’t disagree with you, Jon isn’t gonna flip out and want the throne the way so many others do, but I do think there’s a very real, personal temptation in the idea of being a legitimate Targaryen (we debate this, most don't buy it, I am inclined to think it's a definite possibility for torturing Jon purposes), or simply being accepted by or married to the last of his father’s house. This could be a very short lived temptation, an offer, an inner monologue, rejection, but I think there would be something.

Although, now that I say that, Jon being a Targaryen bastard offers another interesting angle because he’s been tempted to take Winterfell while trueborn Starks live (which would seem related to the negative bastard stereotypes), and he refused. But what if the Targaryen heir is unworthy, what if fighting the trueborn Targ is morally justifiable, necessary, even? That too presents an interesting development of Jon's struggles, and a fun way to write Jon's feelings regarding his Targ family.

I guess I don't think Martin is interested in anything being easy or pat, seems like there has to be something there to torture Jon with? There needs to be an interesting angle to write from, and I don’t particularly care which one, but I do think there will be some element to create inner turmoil for our boy. Not that it changes anything, Jon will assuredly choose the Starks, but imagine reading a Jon chapter post Dany’s arrival or a POV of their meeting. There’s gotta be something interesting for Martin to explore.

As for your point (yes, I got to it, I’m surprised as well! 😂) I never gathered those together that way before, but when you lay it out so clearly, it’s pretty wild. Obviously, I’m not thrilled with Martin’s focus on whether or not a woman can have children, but it’s plot relevant so we end up having discussions about young teens and their fertility which is…unfortunate. But, I buy the idea that we’re meant to see mother of dragons as fundamentally incompatible with mother of children. This is less about kiddos, more about the bigger ideas of war vs peace, how you create or can’t create a future.

It was strange how much emphasis D&D put on Dany having a kid in s7, and I think D&D were beyond foolish to tease Targ restoration so much for the sole purpose of hiding Dark Dany/the ending, but personally, when we think of what Jon wants, the fact that it’s a quiet, domestic life which may be what Dany thinks she wants, but in actuality she has chosen war, will bring war to Westeros...just add it to the list of ways they’re incompatible, anon!

[esta-elavaris]

Flufftober Day 24: 🫠 ~ Aemond Targaryen/OC [1,719 words]

My Flufftober '23 masterpost can be found here 💜✨

Jeyne endeavoured, as a rule, to take all things in her stride. Court life. The constant scrutiny of the ladies within said court. Her brother-by-law. All of those things she accepted, sometimes even with a sense of humour, but the heatwave that hit the capital was doing its best to really test that principle.

There was just something different about the heat – here, away from where she’d previously lived her whole life. From her experience, castles were often cool and draughty even when they hit, but the Red Keep was different. Constantly humid. That fact was unhelped by the amount of bodies packed within, and soon the smell of sweat mingled with overpowering perfume and pomade had her feeling nauseous whenever she was indoors.

But the outdoors were not much of a haven, either. The gardens here were too uniform, too orderly, too constrained for her to find the same sort of solace within as she had in the lands surrounding her family’s home before coming here. Even the nearby ocean seemed in little mood to offer a breeze or two to take the edge off of it, and Jeyne was soon almost tempted to hope for winter. She’d have made a fine Stark…not that she’d ever voice that opinion to her husband. No matter how enjoyable his jealousy often ended up proving, considering his penchant for putting it to good use.

The last thing Westeros needed was her husband feeling Cregan Stark to Vhagar because of a joke she made. The first thing it needed was a break from this damnable heat. And she could only assume it was par for the course as far as King’s Landing was concerned, for Aemond seemed entirely unaffected. Or maybe that was just par for the course as far as Aemond was concerned – for while she was stuck dipping her hand into every fountain she found on her walks through the gardens, barely able to stand the feeling of her hair stuck to the back of her neck, or her dress clinging to her back, he continued to wear his heavy black leathers and trained like a man possessed.

It did nothing to dispel the general consensus that Targaryens were but half a step away from gods.

“How do you fare this eve, wife?” Aemond greeted upon returning to their quarters.

He was already unclasping his jerkin as he spoke, the white shirt beneath clinging to his torso. So he did feel the heat just as she did, then, but simply complained not. Jeyne took his lead – never being one to whine in the first place, even without this between them playing a role. They’d been lucky, one of the few couples to break the mould and have a match of convenience blossom into what was now a loving marriage through and through – not one of tolerance, or even mere friendship. Very lucky. Too lucky, she often feared. And so, while she one meagre complaint could hardly quash what there was between them, she still refrained.

“I’m well,” she offered a smile. “I saw you train today.”

“I saw you saw me train today,” he countered with a smile, casting aside the jerkin and approaching.

Ducking his head, he kissed her softly, fingertips toying with the cuff of the nightgown she’d changed into the moment she’d stepped through the doors of their chambers.

“Many would not, in this heat,” she said, leaning into him despite the humidity. “I worry for you, pushing yourself so in these conditions. You were the only one in the yard.”

Aemond smirked. “Precisely. I improved, while others hid indoors, fanning themselves and chugging down iced pitchers of honeyed milk. And now I outstrip them all the more for it. If I do what others will not, I shall one day do what they cannot.”

“And when they saw you out in the yard today, they’ll all know it,” she murmured. “They’ll all wonder what you’re capable of.”

Her husband’s smirk shifted into a smile, his hand drifting from her cuff to find her fingers instead, entwining them with his.

“However did I find a wife like you?”

“You can’t take the credit,” she teased. “You are not the one who found me.”

“Mm. But I chose you. In the way that mattered.”

Jeyne flushed, hardly knowing what to say to that. He saved her from having to do so, however, when he continued.

“Which is why you should tell me what troubles you?”

“It’s nothing,” she said – and breathed a laugh when he was visibly annoyed by that, amending her words. “It’s nothing serious. The heat – it makes me feel unwell, here in the capital. And it’s a cloudy night, so it won’t even let up a little before morning comes.”

Turning a thoughtful eye to the clouds, Aemond considered them a moment, and Jeyne continued.

“I don’t suppose one of things you can do that others cannot concerns changing the weather?”

A mischievous gleam shone in his violet gaze when it turned back to her.

“Not quite,” he shook his head, “but if the clouds keep us mired in this heat, we must go above the clouds.”

That hadn’t been what she meant at all. But he looked too pleased with himself for her to point it out.

During the course of their betrothal, Aemond had introduced her to Vhagar. Jeyne had thought then, and she knew now, that it had been some manner of test. Not in whether he would wed her – the order, for lack of a gentler term, had more or less already been given to the both of them, and he would do his duty regarding it – but certainly in how he might view her going forward.

She’d been scared. Of course she’d been scared. When face to face with a creature of Vhagar’s size and sheer strength, only a dimwit would not be. But she’d squared her shoulders, steadied her breathing, and followed his instruction on how to greet her – allowing the dragon to take the measure of her first, not flinching when she’d bared her teeth (which were practically the size of Jeyne herself), and finally pressing a shaky hand to her great scaly snout when she was allowed to do so. In hindsight, the teeth-baring was likely a test on Vhagar’s part. Jeyne thanked the old gods and the new that she’d passed on both counts.

But she had never ridden her. Nor any dragon, for that matter.

“You are lucky, my love,” Aemond insisted, extending a hand to pull her up before him as she successfully cleared the long climb up onto his dragon’s back. “Vhagar’s sheer size makes for a smoother ride. Were she Caraxes, you might be right to look so worried.”

Of course, he neglected to see that part of why she appeared so worried was that he’d insisted on her remaining in her nightdress – although he’d conceded to her adding breeches and a cloak to the ensemble, before they snuck out of the Red Keep together. You wish to cool down, do you not? He’d asked, with wickedness in his eye. He’d been right, though, for even in her nightdress, their brisk walk to where Vhagar rested had a sheen of sweat forming about her brow.

The dragon watched her out of the corner of her eye, more curious than threatening, as she summitted her great green back, Aemond urging her to settle before him, her thighs bracketed by his as he reached about her, grasping the ropes that seemed to be more for the purpose of having something to hold onto than actually steering.

“You may use the handholds on the saddle – just there, before you,” he said, before adding smugly into her ear. “Or you could hold onto me. Your choice.”

Jeyne leaned back against him, mostly to reassure herself that she could not go falling back, before setting one hand to the handhold on the saddle, and the other around his wrist. She felt Aemond’s chuckle more than she heard it. And then he called out.

“Sōvēs, Vhagar!”

Vhagar responded. The start was a slow, shuddering thing - because her size made flying no small feat – her great limbs shifting back and forth as she stretched like a cat and rolled her shoulders, sending them up and down atop her back like they’d been caught on a tidal wave. Impossibly large wings batted once, then twice, everything not firmly rooted to the ground sprawling in their wake.

Jeyne’s grip on Aemond’s arm tightened…and then they were flying. It was unsettling – right up until it was thrilling, the lurching instinctive panic and fear giving way swiftly to sheer excitement. There were Targaryens who had never ridden a dragon, and up here? Up here Jeyne could understand why they were so bitter about it.

They soared upwards, the angle plastering her back to his chest, until the glowing capital looked like a village home to a hundred rather than a city home to countless, and then continued further still – the wind ripping at her hair and cloak, threatening to freeze the sweat that had settled on her skin. It was thrilling. Not only for the horrid, humid haze to be cut through and replaced by a bracing, grounding chill, but to discover there was a whole new world up here in the heavens – and to see it, with her own two eyes.

It was better than any dream she’d ever had. The hand that had previously clung to Aemond’s forearm loosened, sliding forth to cover the top of his hand with hers – as if seeking to find out whether he was seeing all of this, too. Vhagar only levelled out when, as promised, they were above the clouds – bathed in dazzling star and moonlight both, fields of unbroken cloud that appeared as white as they would in daylight rolling below them. From there, the dragon seemed content to glide lazily forth with a grace that defied her size.

“What do you think?” he murmured in her ear.

“I want to stay up here forever,” she breathed.

Aemond chuckled, his free hand loosening from the rope to wrap around her waist. “We are to build a castle of our own up here in the heavens, then?”

Oh, how she wished they could.

Listen, if he rides a dragon you gotta write at least one A Whole New World sequence. It's just the law.

Links: AO3 -- FF.net -- flufftober masterpost -- dividers by cafekitsune

[unohanabbygirl]

Your newest story!! Omg!!

Aegon I looking down from Targ heaven with Luke like…ye let’s wrap this up…our involvement in the long night is cancelled.

Rhaenyra and Helaena ending the same way on the spikes. Oh I know Alicent went from visiting her in her chambers every night (unwanted) to sleeping in Rhaenyras chambers long after she was gone.

I understand he needed to get rid of threats but now he won’t have an heir at all. I can’t imagine him taking well to anyone implying Luke can’t give him his heir however. So people are just waiting for him to die. Like the realm will tear itself apart to try rule after him. He really is mad.

Is Anne’s mam really still seeing Alicent as this paragon of the Seven and blaming Luke on aemonds shit?? The call is coming from inside the house sis. Alicent directly fanned the flames of this obsession. Luke was a corpse at the tourney right? Or is that pre-stormsend?

Do you see Lucemond as canon in this fic or is this delulumond in full force?

Thanks so much for sharing with us!!

Aegon I is so fed up after seeing each one of his descendants wiped out while the last man standing has lost his mind to such an extreme degree that he’s violating his other descendants corpse. Visenya is pissed off that Aemond’s gross hands are touching all over her sword and Rhaena is just like “damn, maybe we shouldn’t have come to Westeros.” Meanwhile Luke is sitting in the corner trying to figure out how all this happened? Rhaenyra keeps trying to console him but he’s too busy attempting to string together the events that led to his uncle becoming this damn crazy.

Babes, if Alicent was going to do anything she was going to seek Rhaenyra out nightly. Even though there came a point where Nyra stopped screaming and crying and just went radio silent until hearing the news about her last two babies deaths and deciding there was nothing left to live for. Alicent is so in love and exceptionally delulu just like her son that in her mind, Rhaenyra only jumped out of that window because she knew it would hurt her. Most insane mother-son duo in history me thinks.

The chances of Aemond having an heir are zero at this point. There’s not even a chance that Dany will be born to bring back the dragons because that dude isn’t laying down with anyone but Luke, you hear me? And its not even just because his shattered mind somehow thinks he can simply have a baby with Luke/refuses to cheat on his queen, but that no woman would ever sleep with him knowing what they do. They’d likely off themselves before they could even make it to the sept (very understandable)

Though this won’t stop his council from trying to work out something behind Aemond’s back. It comes to the point where one of his men is like “what if we drug him with an aphrodisiac and try to find a noble lady who’s willing to…you know? Then kill him after the child is born in secret? Twins are common for them so we might have an heir and a spare or a future king and queen.” But the idea is so outrageous with so many plot-holes and chances to go wrong that everyone just slowly begins to accept the war that’ll break out over the crown once Aemond croaks. Only thing they can do is hope they’re long dead once that time comes because the thought of another civil war is so draining.

In a last ditch effort his hand goes digging around with hopes that at least one of the deceased Targ men have a living bastard that they could legitimize but comes up empty handed. All Aegons died tragically, Jace was obviously too busy in Cregan’s company to go out and sire a child, Daemon only had Nettles who they can’t even confirm was his daughter + she’s been missing since the war, Daeron was a nerd who would rather pray at the sept, and Viserys could barely wipe his own ass in his last days let alone find the energy to cheat.

It’s heartbreaking when you think about because literally everyone, including Alicent is just waiting for Aemond to go to sleep and never wake up.

Lol, Anne’s mom is my favorite because she’s somehow more obsessed with Alicent than Alicent was with Rhaenyra which is such a hard thing to accomplish that she kinda deserves a medal?? Her character is simply an embodiment of parasocial relationships and viewing the monarchy as these figures who are above everyone else. Appointed by the gods and all that nonsense. And yes, the tourney was pre Storms end!

Hmmm, personally I see it as a mix of the two. Lucemond had feelings for each other (Aemond more than Luke) but never actually acted on them let alone reached the extent of what rumors suggest. Though certain points like them meeting up before the dinner failure to talk things out did happen but without the ‘making love’ part. However those are just my own thoughts because I intentionally left those details up to the reader.

Thanks babes, I always love hearing from you 🩷

[mneiai]

Okay, continuing with the Arianne nonsense...someone actually said that Arianne should be fine with Doran now that she knows the truth about Viserys and that she shouldn't resent anything he did or try to do anything for herself.

Umm...Doran basically ruined Arianne's life for no good reason.

A brief summary:

Not only did he keep the truth from her until her mid-20s (which was about a decade after she should have had a public betrothal if not a marriage by Westerosi standards and even by Dornish standards was late), but there was no reason not to raise her to rule.

In fact, more of a reason to raise her so, since Viserys would have no formal education in it. She could have naturally had more duties than the average Queen and not only set herself up to be seen as a sort of active, "good Queen," but also further increased Dornish influence at Viserys' court, especially since positions like Hand can always be given to someone else.

Instead, he deceived her and hid the truth from everyone. She's in her mid-20s, she's at the age where people blame her for the lack of betrothals, where they think there's something wrong with her. And 40 is getting to the limit of safe births in modern day US, in Westeros she's missing her most child-productive years. Yet it took some extreme shit going down for Doran to tell her the "truth" about his plans.

Viserys was basically a laughing stock in Westeros. The Beggar King who never even came managed one invasion or war. If he'd actually come to Westeros and become King, he still would have had a contentious rule. Every year after he turned 16 and wasn't on the Iron Throne it became worse.

Telling people "my father didn't betroth me because I was being saved for Viserys" would just make the Martells look pathetic to most people.

And imagine at how her situation looks to anyone that doesn't know about the Viserys thing: There are multiple second or further sons that would have been viable consorts for her. If she wasn't inheriting Dorne, she had at least three peers in age and station she could have wed: Willas Tyrell, Renly Baratheon, Edmure Tully. If they were going to have her older than her spouse, then Robb Stark. She would have only taken a slight downgrade in position and her children would still inherit a kingdom.

Wedding her to Willas would have been seen as a similar move to having Quentyn foster with the Yronwoods: cleaning up Oberyn's messes and making a contentious relationship maybe slightly less so. Marrying her to Edmure or Robb would have gotten them an "in" for the Tully-based three kingdom alliance of the Riverlands, North, and the Vale. Marrying her to Renly would have been controversial, but it would have put her children in line for the throne (even not knowing about Cersei's kids, Robert only had three male heirs before Renly and history showed that wasn't always enough) or would have given them a marriage they could have annulled, claiming it had never been consummated.

Arianne could have also simply been betrothed to someone too young to marry. Like Robert Arryn, Bran Stark, Ned Dayne, any number of other Dornish boys. If they were waiting until they were 16, it basically gave time for Viserys to actually do something or for Doran to have a deadline of when he had to accept that Arianne marrying him and him becoming King just wasn't going to happen.

Doran is a clever guy, or at least we're supposed to believe he is, he knew he was ruining Arianne's reputation while also preventing her from ever seriously inheriting Dorne. He tried to betroth her to some super old dude when he could have just betrothed her to a very young boy or a known gay guy. He could have also found someone to betroth her to that could be manipulated into breaking the betrothal right before the marriage, at least having given her one decent betrothal in her history that no one could fault her for losing.

And he could have had her actually educated to rule. Could have given her experience ruling. That in no way would stop her from becoming someone's wife, Catelyn was thought to be heir to Riverrun for a decent amount of her youth until Edmure was born and still made an acceptable consort. If he wanted Quentyn (or Trystane) to actually inherit Dorne, he could have given all three of them a similar education and set of experiences, so that people still could see that Doran was considering maybe skipping over Arianne.

I'm definitely not a "Doran is secretly hugely evil" truther, but the "Doran doesn't actually care about Arianne" part of the theory isn't actually a stretch from what we see in the text. His excuses just do not hold up, everything he's said about it is shady and easy to poke holes in.

That is to say, I hope once she's away from him and among people he doesn't have any control over, she can start to come into her own and maybe even get back at him.

Also if we ended up getting a Doran POV where he's just male!Cersei I would not even be that surprised.

[wodania]

i loved your dany and egg art and I was wondering where you got the idea to draw them identical?

This is long but I adore both of these characters so who can blame me 😭

I think I just loved the idea of these two being visually similar because of how similar their characters are personality and story wise. Dany and Egg are both rather untraditional leaders in that they value the opinion of the weak and impoverished over the strong and wealthy. Egg made many enemies in Westeros and was considered tyrannical by some because of his efforts to redistribute wealth towards the small folk who were dropping dead in the streets from disease and starvation, rather than the nobles who would only sit on that money and brag about how much they have. Egg was beloved by the small folk because he had their best interests in mind. Throughout Dunk and Egg, we see him learning more and more about how abusive the system of wealth and nobility is towards those at the bottom of Westeros’ social pyramid. Hell, even the nobles were wary of him after he retired from squiring because they considered him to be too much of a peasant to rule, likely afraid that having a man who’s lived a peasant life sitting on the Iron Throne would be the end of their negligent spending habits. Through his reign, we see these lessons shine through as he takes noble money and puts it towards what it should be going towards: relief efforts and care for the small folk, not parties and lavish clothing and simple bragging material.

In a similar scenario, Dany isn’t afraid to challenge the slavers and rich men in Essos when they are using their power to abuse those lower. She values slaves and impoverished lives over the lives of wealthy slavers, she’s considered tyrannical by that class of people because she’s willing to act against them and support those who are victimized by them. She’s willing to call them out on their bullshit and punish their behaviour when no one else did, whether it be from fear, lack of strength, or simply an acceptance of the slavers presence. Dany accepts those at the bottom of Essos’ social pyramid into her following with open arms, she considers them her children and she loves them. Slaves, impoverished people, disabled and sickly. Those are who Dany supports. Even when people around her tell her that she’s simply taking on dead weight that will only weigh her down, she doesn’t back down. That mindset was what put the small folk of Westeros and Essos in such a terrible position, the idea that it was only nobles and rich men who deserved to be part of a movement or support system. It’s a never ending cycle that Dany wants to finally be done with.

You also get a lot of narrative overlap between the two characters dragon wise. Egg was Dany’s great-grandfather. He hosted Summerhall for Rhaegar’s birth. He wished to hatch dragons for the celebration of the birth of Aerys and Rhaella’s son. His goal was to use dragons to further his pro-small folk laws, to use them as a tool to help the weak and protect them from the strong. Dany uses her dragons in the way Egg wished he could’ve used his; she uses her three dragons as tools to help save those who would not have had the opportunity to rebel against the abusive government they lived under. They are a symbol of freedom, of revolution against abuse. Dany, with her dragons, is living the life Egg could only dream of. She is who Egg wanted to be, she’s fulfilling her great-grandfather’s wishes whether she’s aware of it or not.

Their characters also fascinate me due to how the small folk are depicted. In many tales of nobles and kings in asoiaf, the small folk are hurdles to get around. They are depicted in a bad light, bigoted and misunderstanding of the depth of the noble class. But when Dany and Egg step down from the pedestal most of the other nobles wished to stay on, you get a much different view of them. Of course they are hateful of nobility and monarchy, what good has it ever done them? Of course they latch onto leaders who support them financially even if that leader treats other nobles poorly. Asoiaf is very noble oriented, and to see small folk as people is extremely important. The class divide makes small folk seem like a foreign nation of people, when they are supposed to be the ones the people in charge are protecting.

Plus, we also have similar themes of rebirth with the introduction and depiction of these characters. When Dunk first meets Egg, Egg is bald and naked at the inn. When Dany births dragons, she’s bald and naked. It’s the start of new lives and new opportunities. Egg sheds his Valyrian hair and noble attire and encounters Dunk, who ends up being a defining part of his later ruling as king. Dany’s hair and clothing are burnt to ashes and she births dragons, setting her on her path to become Queen Daenerys, the Mother of Dragons. I’m not even going to go into the fact that Egg’s life ended trying to birth dragons in fire, and Dany’s life began by birthing dragons in fire. But that’s there too. It’s almost like Egg’s story was put on pause for a few generations, and then came back again with Dany.

I’m skipping a lot of other stuff bc this is so long aldjskdj. I think it’s super sweet I think these characters are super neat I love them both so so much. My favourite dragon people ever.

[tatticstudio55]

Hi! So I don't know how to phrase this question, but one of the things I really loved about Daenerys' arc is how as soon as she gains any amount of power, she tries to help other with it whenever possible, my favorite arc being how she is undoing the crimes of her ancestors by actively fighting slavery. But, and I know the show did a really bad job of it, I'm curious about your thoughts regarding how she's actually going to go to Westeros and what happens post-canon. Daenerys, arguably cares more about her people than most in the ruling class so it would be cool to see her on the iron throne but she's already made a commitment to end slavery in Essos. So, if she goes over and wants to rule, how would that work when, despite having the threat of literal dragons, the regions she liberated were overthrown as soon as she left. And this is when she was on the same continent as them. So if she goes to Westeros, how can she make sure that her movement to end slavery continues? Especially when Westeros also has a whole host of issues and it's unclear if her arrival and intervention will be accepted.

(This has been sitting in my ask box for an embarrassingly long time, sorry)

Hi anon,

the problem with this question is that the books will never answer it for us, even if ADOS eventually gets published. The hypothetical scenario you brought up - that Dany's rule might be met with resistance in Westeros, and will-she-or-won't-she continue to fight slavery in Slaver's Bay from Westeros - can only be verified if Martin spend a somewhat substantial part of the last 2 books writing about Dany being a ruling queen in Westeros.

And I don't think he will.

There's simply not enough time, and too much for Dany to do still, apart from being queen of Westeros. Should she ever be crowned queen, her reign will either be very short, or happen post-canon (as you said). If ever the later happens, the most we'll probably get is a "historical" account from Fire and Blood 2, which may or may not reflect accurately on what Dany made of her time being queen.

Dany being Dany, I don't think that she'd just forget about Slaver's Bay forever, even if TWOW might see her going all "screw it I'm leaving" - after all, her last two chapters in ADWD were all about shoving in her face that her efforts to end slavery had been "useless", and Dany has good reasons to believe, whether rightly or wrongly, that her husband (you know, the marriage meant to symbolize the peak of reconciliation between the "old" Meereen and the "new") tried to poison her.

But what Dany will do about Slaver's Bay if she becomes queen of Westeros? We'll never know.

[burnnouts]

His best interest. The words might have made him laugh in other circumstances. It had been a very long time since Robb had taken action in his best interest. If he had had his own interests in mind, he would not have married Roslin Frey. He would not have spent his youth at war. And he certainly would not be here, waiting for the end of the world, watching snow gather on the windows each morning as Winter crept ever closer. And yet it was also true, perhaps, that he had grown too fond of his sword, too familiar with the weight of steel in his hand, the handle too worn. Some days, he worried that if he ever took it off his belt, he would simply fall over, unused to the weight of his own body without the additions of chain mail and weaponry.

"Surprised, not startled," he said. But his hand fell away from his belt and, thus, away from his sword. "In these lands, people do not generally appear without use of horse--or dragon, I suppose." Though even that addition was new. There had not been dragons in Westeros for hundreds of years, and suddenly there were three. "I assume such things are normal where you come from?"

Robb watched as Beck's image disappeared from the map. He hated that, even after all this time, he felt the longing like an arrow through his chest: a physical, aching desire that time had not removed, no matter how much he had hoped it would. But there was little time to focus on that now. There was never enough time for things like love and longing. For as long as Robb could remember, life had been a game of survival. First to win the war. Now to win at the end of the world.

His eyes scanned the map. He understood, on the surface, what he was being told and shown--that there was land, empty and uninhabited, a land far from the Night King and his terrors. It was not the understanding that troubled Robb; it was the believing. He had fought for years for his kingdom's soveirnty, for the freedom of the North, and the right to rule their own lands. So many had died to defend that claim and hold this territory--and now another was to be given to them, handed out as easily as excess flour from the grainery in spring?

There was a saying Robb had been told long ago: not to look a gift horse in the mouth. But there was also a famous tale of a gifted horse that brought tragedy and ruin to the receiver when it was revealed that an invading army lurked within its bowels. "Why?" Robb asked. "Why would you offer us this? You do not know me or my people. You would offer strangers--not just from a different land but a different world than your own--to occupy a territory you have fought over for seventy years. You ask for no fealty, gold, or goods. It is not a fair exchange. It is a mercy."

Hearing his own words, Robb was reminded, suddenly, of another moment, long ago, in which he'd treated with guests. It was the very first time he had sat in his father's seat and acted as Lord of Winterfell. His guest had been Tyrion Lannister that day, and he had come to offer aid to Robb's brother: a horse and a blueprint by which to build a saddle that would allow a cripple to ride. Why? Robb had asked him then to. Why do you want to help him? Is this some sort of trick? If there had been a trick, it had never revealed itself. Perhaps the problem was him: that he did not know how to accept aid, even when offered freely.

Robb bent over the map, tracing a finger over the borders that had been drawn there as if by magic--and, he thought, it probably had been. Territory. Resources. Building materials. Time to rebuild. It had all been taken care of by the Bears, the Foxes, and the Wolves. How strange it was to hear that title--Wolf King--spoken about another. Beck had been quite sparse in her descriptions of her family. He knew that she had a family, knew that things were complicated, but he knew little else. He knew that she had volunteered to rescue his sisters without asking anything in return. He knew that she was kind, and brave, and generous--and perhaps, so were her people.

He took a deep breath and straightened up. This was no time to be proud. "I apologize if I see weary of aid. I am not ungrateful, nor unaware of the magnitude of your undoubtedly generous offer. You must understand that the last time I negotiated safe passage under an agreement of peace, a great number of my people were butchered during their supper. We were unarmed, for we believed we were dining with friends. But," Robb amended, "You are not them, and if I allow my kingdom to be one of secrecy and suspicion, we might as well let the Night King take us, for it is no way to live. As you have said, the offer is generous. It is more than generous. But I cannot make the decision alone. I must speak with my council, and I will give you answer within the hour."

Karl watched Desmond step into the room without an ounce of fear. Unlike his father, a boisterous and silly old man who greeted guests to his own castle with kisses regardless of their gender or status and drank a tankard and a half of ale before leaving his quarters in the morning, the Seal Prince was almost frighteningly stoic. Karl could not recall ever seeing him smile. Once, more years ago than he cared to count, he'd visited the Misty Isles and stayed in the Seal King's castle. Even then, as a boy no more than two or three, he never once heard the child cry. Someone had evoked some manner of emotion in him other than annoyance at some point, as he'd taken a husband of his own two years prior. He'd be a fine---if not a dull---king when he stopped running around playing politician and putting his nose in other people's business.

But Desmond was a man he knew well. Even if they didn't always get along. It was Robb he was interested in. The young king's words kept circling in his head like a shark. They were practiced and calm--almost perfunctory. Karl could not tell if it was because his suffering was behind him now, or because he had little suffering at all. If any of his own wives had died, he wouldn't be able to speak of it without tears in his eyes for years... but he was a passionate man. The mortals here seemed a bit more reserved. Still, it gave him even more hope that maybe, just maybe, he could find a way to make this work for everyone.

"It would be in your best interest if you did not draw your sword. If I meant to threaten you, I'd have brought an army, not an offer." He said calmly. The chastisement rolled right off his back. Karl did have to begrudgingly admit that Desmond's patience and his education made him well suited to this task. "Nonetheless I apologize if I startled or slighted you in any way. It wasn't my intention. Karl's tricks left me with little option but to employ a few of my own."

"I play no tricks!" The old king huffed. He'd wanted to get a measure of Robb's character before everything got bogged down with words. He wanted to look him in the eye and see his home before welcoming Robb into his own. That was no trick. And his plan had worked, no matter how it vexed Desmond; he was certain he'd seen enough of Robb's character to justify his newfound fondness for him.

"I won't waste my breath on petty arguments with you, Karl." Desmond said with a sigh. He made a motion to the parchment that was still hovering in the air. "The map. Please."

Karl let out one last harrumph before doing as Desmond asked. He drew another series of complicated characters with his finger, and the image of Beck faded. The map that appeared this time, however, was one of the Witch Wilds. With a twist of the wrist the unnecessary portions faded back into the paper. He looked at Robb and gave a little wink. "He is talking better than me. If you can be awake all the time."

Desmond shot him a glare as he chuckled, then pointed to the image as he spoke.

"This is Nādhir Hallr or The Quiet Hillside. Though I suppose you can call it whatever you please if you choose to accept the offer presented to you. It is a large stretch of land bordered by The Foxes to the west, The Wolves to the south and The Bears to the north and east. It's climate is not too dissimilar to what you are accustomed to here in the North. It's winters are cold, but predictable, and the lowlands have rich soil to be farmed. Seventy years ago the two largest cities fell during The War of the Twin Flowers, and the three clans bordering the territory began to squabble over it. Do not interrupt me, Karl." Desmond paused to look over at the Bear King sharply, who's mouth was open to speak. With a scowl, Karl closed it once more, and the prince continued. "There has been an unspoken agreement to leave the land unoccupied to avoid conflict until recently. As the Wolf King's letter reads: the Bears, Wolves, and Foxes have all agreed to surrender their claim to the land to you and your people should you agree to cross through the passageways before they are collapsed. The Fox Queen has offered to house you and your people until suitable homes can be built and priests to help educate your people on the region's flora and fauna. The Wolf King has offered supplies and a standing invitation to the Earthshine Temple to speak with him whenever you please. The Bears have offered both supplies and labor to help your people build. With the aid of the surrounding clans, you and your people should thrive there."

"But we have terms." The Bear King said gruffly. He said we in a thin attempt to be tactful. He had very few conditions---but the Wolves and the Foxes were not so accepting.

Desmond nodded. "Indeed. First and foremost this offer has been made on the behalf of someone---very dear to the clan leaders involved and it has been extended to you. If you are unwilling to join your people on this journey, I doubt that your people will be received so generously. Furthermore, anyone who crosses over into the Witch Wilds must submit themselves to you. Should your people bring war to the doorstep of the surrounding clans or in the unlikely and unfortunate case you are assassinated by one of your own, unless you have an heir, your people will be stripped of the rights of an independent nation and expected to assimilate with the surrounding clans. Travel passes will be required for both entry and exit of the region for the first five years, and they must be approved by yourself and the leader of the neighboring clan. And you must sign the peace agreement that the surrounding clans currently abide by. This is the offer being made to you. I dare say it is a very generous one. Even, shockingly, for the Wolf King. No doubt on behalf of his sister."