#well they don't trust each other even by the end of s2

[my-mt-heart]

Idk how to say this but I am not as bothered about whatever is going to transpire between Daryl and Isabelle (bcoz for one thing - we know what is going to happen in the end- and for another - I honestly believe that the male execs are not at all confident abt their vision for these two as they would like to be and the whole thing would prolly boil down to ambiguity and ultimately- it will fall upon the viewers to dissect how Daryl feels - the Caryl fandom especially is really adept at reading into storylines - even stupid ones) None of this is good by any means. It cheapens the integrity of all the characters involved. It blatantly insults and reduces female characters - I believe that Isabelle deserves better. That a story should hold space for multiple female characters. Also - I am worried about putting the fate and the story of one the best female characters on TV (Carol) in the hands of someone who has proven that he can't be trusted to handle them with care. Reading S2 reviews - I am sort of reassured that Carol is treated well enough in the story - which I believe - has a LOT to do with Melissa McBride's input. Going forward - it is going to be more difficult bcoz once we have dealt with old traumas - we do need to evolve these characters and make sure they don't stay stagnant. I don't believe Zabel has the chops to do that.

sorry for that rant. I am just really frustrated.

What I worry about is the way all of this bts stuff amongst the male execs is going to impact the Caryl dynamic. Whatever the antis may think - and while McReedus has insane chemistry - I do believe that the romantic energy is generated between them by a lot of their acting choices (bcoz the underlying story is teasing a romance). What happens to all that when a romance is completely off the table? When AMC has been pushing this friendship narrative down our throats in a very evident bid to do damage control - the insecure/defensive promo that we have been getting last few weeks is proof enough that Caryl was always more than friends?

The problems were already glaringly obvious from the very beginning. the fact that Melissa isn't billed equally for a season where she is proclaimed to be the major focus? It is not even about Caryl going canon for me anymore. I love Melissa and Carol way too much for me to give up yet but I treasure the Caryl bond primarily bcoz they have always been each other's everything. it is truly a bond that evades definition. Both Carol and Daryl doesn't have what they have with each other with anyone. THAT IS A CANON FACT. I don't think I can watch that dynamic that I treasure so much being butchered - s11 was painful enough - I can't go through all of that and more again.

Going to watch s2 and then my further commitment will depend entirely upon how the characters are treated and their dynamic is portrayed?

It sucks that I am dreading watching Carol and Daryl back together on screen.

been here just for a few months but the way AMC has been fumbling with this promo - have you guys always experienced this whiplash or is it a new thing?

I’m going to include big spoilers in my response, so proceed with caution ⚠️

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with you on the point about Daryl’s and Isabelle’s arc. It seems like the male EPs (Zabel, Nicotero, Gimple) are overly confident that an explicit romance between their male hero and a younger blonde nun who accused Daryl of being like his abusive father just for trying to go home to his family will attract a larger male audience and they aren’t sparing any feelings with it because we aren’t their ideal audience anyway. To them, we’re just a bunch of “hysterical” shippers whose POV’s don’t matter and we can just take their crumbs. AMC is a bit more complicated, but I’ll get to them later.

Daryl and the nun kiss in 202, so there’s little to no room for us to dissect how Daryl is feeling. Isabelle’s death is the furthest thing from a relief because 1) it reduces her character down to man pain like you said and 2) from what I’m gathering, it completely overshadows Caryl’s reunion and then their entire arc. We get another hug that does absolutely nothing to elevate their relationship and then Carol has to face that Daryl didn’t need her to rescue him because he found a new family and become his emotionally supportive friend to help him through his grief of a lost love interest he’s known for a few months. It almost feels like it’s going to be a retread of Beth’s death, only worse. We know how Greg Nicotero views both of those relationships and to be blunt, the man needs to stop projecting his creepy fetishes onto Daryl and making it our problem 🤢

The way the story is framed, it’s not even about Caryl at all. They’re the relationship we’re the most invested in and yet all the emotional weight is given to a highly problematic relationship that developed over a dozen ish short episodes (compared to Caryl’s decade+ of emotional depth) and it’s all for nothing too. Zabel just resets Daryl like the hokey network procedural writer he is. And Caryl fans are rewarded for their years-long loyalty by getting more ambiguous subtext to analyze? Really?

I think you’re spot on about Melissa though. The reason she’s the bright spot of the season, the reason Carol’s individual arc feels true, and her spiritual connection to Daryl stays alive is because Melissa influenced all of that. She’s shown us time and time again that she understands her character so deeply and respects her fans. It really breaks my heart because I think she had a beautiful story in mind for Carol and she deserves all the support in the world, but as I’ve said many times, if damage is done to the character who has been written as her soulmate for over a decade, damage is also done to her. And I can’t watch that. I can’t watch the destruction of my favorite characters and my favorite relationship and put money in AMC’s pockets for gaslighting me. Retconning Caryl’s relationship into a platonic friendship is their way of protecting themselves from backlash. “Daryl isn’t emotionally cheating because he and Carol have always been besties?” “We didn’t mislead you. We told you they were friends, so you dumb shippers are doing this to yourselves. Please watch our slop anyways ✌️” They’re even trying to shift responsibility to Melissa by making her answer the shipping questions despite the fact that it’s Daryl’s arc throwing a wrench in everything and I expect that to continue at NYCC/Palyfest. It’s completely unethical and it’s backfiring.

Zabel cannot write for Daryl and Carol. He keeps showing us that he doesn’t understand their bond nor does he value it. A couple of the reviews mentioned it felt like Carol was shoehorned into certain aspects of the story, which tracks with what I already knew—that he and the other EPs think she’s hindering the story they want to tell about men doing manly things. That’s why they try so hard to challenge her significance to Daryl’s story and that is not going to change just because they’re moving to another location. Somebody like that should not have power to decide her trajectory. Fuck whatever he has planned for S3. I don’t want it. I still want Caryl and I still want to see them get the stories they deserve, but that’s only going to happen if we get a new showrunner who respects them and respects their fans. In case it needs to be said, Gimple is not that guy either (he can fake his enthusiasm on SM all he wants 🖕🖕🖕). A complete rebranding of the show to something that honors the characters and gives Melissa her dues (equal billing, title, etc) is the only way I’m tuning in now🤷🏻‍♀️ I don’t have the emotional capacity to sit through S2, but I will be here, speaking up, to make sure Melissa gets all the necessary praise and those assholes can’t blame her if the show tanks.

I’ve only been here a few years and there’s been a lot of turn over at AMC even just in that time (I kid you not, all of our problems can be traced back to Josh Sapan leaving. He loved Caryl and Melissa). That being said, I cannot for the life of me understand why any of the guys over there (even the misogynistic ones) would approve of the Daryl/Isabelle arc after the PR disaster that Leah caused not even that long ago and at least for that, the arc tied back to romantic Caryl and we weren’t subjected to any uncomfortable physical intimacy. Why the fuck would they make the same mistake? Why the fuck do they have to spend more time cleaning up messes than avoiding the mess altogether at every fucking opportunity they had (and they had a lot). I just don’t get it. And I’m so tired of taking the abuse.

[aenslem]

hi, hello, Rodney anon is back!

i've had a ton of shit to do this week so i haven't been able to watch any sgu until now, but i'm gonna finish it tonight at least, which feels really good! =D i just watched Common Descent, the one with the time travel descendants, which, uhm, hello ds9 plot, nice to see you again! x'D

about CAoS, i sadly won't watch that, probably ever, because of my spider phobia, which, waaah, look at Michelle 😭 but i absolutely will watch Doctor Who! i started watching it like, idk, ten years ago, but i stopped on season 3 because i wasn't very good at handling the doctor switch. i love Tennant, he's amazing, but fell in love with Eccleston's doctor pretty much immediately, so i just constantly missed him and sorta lost interest a bit. i did love the show though, it's great, and i do think that i could maybe manage it if i tried again, so i WILL watch it. i just don't know when. but yeah, Michelle is definitely pushing me towards it being sooner rather than later xD (as is Jodie Whittaker, very much looking forward to seeing a lady doctor!)

i don't remember why i stopped watching OUaT tbh, but it was probably what you said x'D from what i remember i definitely agree, both with the characters and actors appreciation and the general... well, yeah xD for now i'm fairly content with just following two blogs who ship Swan Queen and love Regina Mills, but you're both making me want to watch it xD

but now i'm gonna watch some more divorced idiots in love, see if Young will be all soft and in lurve only to be like "wait he's probably lying, he's lying right, are you LYING?" again, i do love that for some reason xD (probably because i'm a sucker for them being soft with each other, and they always are, right up until the Looks starts to be given xD) just three more episodes to go, then i'm finally gonna stalk your sgu tag properly! =D

i hope all is well and that you're having an awesome weekend! ♥

/Rodney anon

Hi!!!

so, basically by this time you already saw the moment when I yelled watching 'blockade', I hope you did watch it

hELLO!?????/

them being like that? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

spiders are not the worst about caos, so you won't miss much by not watching the show, except michelle gomez in amazing outfits which you hardly be able to see, cos the lighting department in the show probably forgot they had a job.

also in that case I would suggest to avoid watching some episodes of doctor who as well, they do have spiders in some episodes, like arachnids in UK.

about the doctor switch, yeah, it seems like you will never love the next doctor as much, but trust me, if you give them a chance you will see how great all of them are, you will love them all in their own way. you just need to stop trying to see the same character, it's basically a new person, a new character, but once you do so you will see so many similarities and all the artists playing the doctor are doing such an amazing job.

anyway, I hope you enjoyed the show, if you already finished it, cos I am answering late and not much was distracting you from watching the show. real life can be pain in the ass, I know :D

I don't really have much time to gif at the moment due to real life, hope I will have more time soon, aaaand if you want me to gif a specific moment with our divorced idiots - feel free to ask :3 I want to gif all of their interactions, but it will take a lot of time.

[love-byers]

the first time i saw this, when i was NOT a byler shipper, i thought el was running TO mike. i thought we were getting a sweet moment where el runs to mike and he puts an arm around her or hugs her.

then i realized she was running away from him. 

and i was like, why?? they're supposed to be the couple why does she not want his comfort??

and even after will calls her out on doing mike wrong by lying to him, even after she sees that mike is attempting to talk to her and comfort her, that he's not angry at her, she still tells angela to lie to mike. more lies. that's how much she cares about keeping up the persona. had angela lied to mike, el would've continued lying to him the entire week. something she knows in her heart is wrong and not fair to mike.

this is a theme in s4. putting who you want to be seen as before being honest with your bf/gf. going above and beyond to preserve your lie, to be seen as who you want to be.

chrissy does that with jason. who she portrays herself as is completely different than who she really is and what she's really going through. jason has absolutely no idea chrissy is struggling and refused to believe chrissy would buy drugs, because chrissy didn't want to tell him. who knows how jason would've reacted if chrissy was honest, we don't know because chrissy didn't trust him enough to tell him. that's not love at all, that's sad.

this is a point in s2 as well. murray calls nancy out for being afraid to be her true self, and she stays with steve because she doesn't have to be her true self around him. she is her true self when she's with jonathan, and that's why they worked together. that's love.

the exact same thing happens with chrissy. the first time we see her genuinely smile is when she's with eddie. she's sweet and charismatic, and had she lived she totally would've gone to eddie's show, something you never would've expected from her, something her boyfriend, the person she pretends to love, would NEVER do.

robin and steve reinforce this too

you fall in love with the person who makes you feel accepted, the person who makes you feel like you can be who you are. the person you trust with your true self.

mike and el don't trust each other enough, they don't understand each other well enough.

they would have to change their behavior towards each other by leaps and bounds, and we're already at the last season. there is no time for that. stranger things isn't a multi season show about the complexity of romantic relationships and the healthy way to resolve problems. there is no time for that in just about any movie or show, especially a sci-fi show. you know what's way easier and way more likable? pairing your character with someone they naturally click with, who bring out the best in each other and for some reason can't help but be their authentic selves when they're with each other.

did it with jancy, like i said earlier

did it with lumax. when lucas and max talked on the bus max found herself spewing about things she'd never even said out loud before, and she had to stop herself. something about lucas just made her feel comfortable, like she could be herself and tell the truth. she trusted him.

"You're nothing like your brother, okay? You're cool and different, you're super smart, and you're like, totally tubular."

jopper too! joyce constantly had to hide things from bob, she was insecure about their family not being normal.

"This is not a normal family."

"It could be."

though bob had good intentions, the message of the show is not trying to be normal when you aren't. whatever it is about you that makes you weird or different, whatever you've been through that changed you, stay true to it. dont bottle it up and try to be someone else. all of vecnas victims in s4 were doing this, and it didn't end well for them.

they even did it with dustin and suzie. dustin constantly tries to impress max with his teeth, then in season 3 he says suzie thinks kissing is better without teeth. he doesn't have to be insecure about that or try to impress her. she likes him for him.

mike isn't comfortable being his true self around el either. he's insecure about his interests, he feels like he has to act older and cooler to impress her.

you shouldn't be with the person you feel you have to impress. you should be with the person who relieves that pressure, who makes you feel like being the authentic you is enough.

jonathan and nancy, lucas and max, joyce and hopper, dustin and suzie,

cough WILL AND MIKE cough...

[penny-anna]

how different Owl House characters might fare in a time travel AU (let's say back from 5 years post canon, dropped into their own body, classic scenario):

Luz: pretty good I think? i feel like she'd be able to convince Eda & King that she's telling the truth pretty easily. other characters would be tougher. post-canon Luz gives off the impression of being pretty smart and savvy plus she'd have the benefit of Glyph Mastery. most likely danger is that she'd end up over-planning and everything would just fall apart. Also the question of whether she'd manage to re-win Amity's heart.

Eda: my gut feeling was 'nothing would change' but that's not fair. would have no issue getting Luz to believe her bcos like Luz just wandered into a fantasy world someone there being like 'hi I'm your friend from the future' would be like aight let's chat. would probably hook up w Raine & their rebellion very early and get a lot of shit done.

Amity: would have a tough time getting anyone to believe her i think. also a much tougher time winning over Luz & her other friends as I don't think she'd be great at handling that situation. I could see her trying to just go it alone.

Willow: hmm i feel like she'd handle this pretty well? i think she'd do a good job of getting other people on side. similar to Luz might over plan it and end up completely losing her mind. would probably be there like 'okay now everyone's together, step one, we go rescue the Golden Guard'.

Gus: I feel like Gus & Willow mutually would trust each other unreservedly in this situation so he'd defo have at least 1 ally. significantly hampered by being 12 years old again. honestly i could see him leaping immediately to 'let's just kill Belos right now'.

Hunter: worst & yet also best option. no natural allies. extremely aware that if Belos suspects anything he is gonna be super dead. saving flapjack would be a very high priority. if we're sending him back to the beginning of s1 tho good chance of him just showing up at the Owl House and successfully winning Luz over for reasons of s1 Luz is down for anything; if we're sending him back to early s2 he's having a much rougher time.

Lilith: oh she would go insane I think

King: nobody would take King seriously

Hooty: nothing would change & i am not convinced he would even tell anyone

[dalliancekay]

I'm just gonna write out what I think cos if someone sends me this again for the 113th time, I'm gonna snap. Look. Interviews (months!) before a premiere of something are tricky. You gotta be careful and VAGUE with what you say and what you want people to expect. Mostly creators focus on the themes in the first, maybe second episodes or so too trying not to give away much. Just the bare bones, what is already expected anyway. After all, they want you to watch it and go: "Ahhhh...." It was the same in S2 as well. (David describing in interviews how unmoored Crowley was in S2, how kind of disappointed etc and Michael how Az is also a bit disconcerted by not having a job, something big to belong to). But that's a description of - how we find the Ineffables in ep1, rather than describing the whole of Season 2. And there was a book first before the series and you must admit Aziraphale and Crowley are a bit different in the series than they are in the book. So caution was needed. PLUS their story has evolved again. It doesn't now end in the Ritz (I know it never really did for Neil and Terry who clearly wanted them to deal with the whole system somehow). The husbands have more trouble ahead. More details were added. We got more of their story, their journeys. Crowley doesn't change and is just waiting for Aziraphale to catch up with him is not much of a story, don't you think? Aziraphale is a naïve goody two shoes angel who has to realise Heaven is bad - is just so simple I'd be angry if I was Neil and read that. Well, okay, I AM angry.

And I'm sorry but Aziraphale has not lived a guarded life. He has lived a life of fear and anxiety with bosses who underestimate, belittle and laugh at him and think he's soft and rather pointless. Does anyone know what the question was Neil answers?

Yeah, Aziraphale changes a lot in S1 (esp first 2 eps, he's kind of forced to think about the stuff that was always kinda there but swept under a rug a bit in is mind). Crowley throws out - we should do something. This whole Armageddon thing, I don't like it. He is so much a questioner of everything, isn't he. Why does it have to be tis way. Makes no sense, what if... And generally, he doesn't have much to lose. If Hell wins, well, he knows what it's like. If Heaven wins, well, it'd be marginally better? Just about? If he survives to see it? Still sucks balls tho. So yes, David is right that Crowley NEEDS Aziraphale to see things his way and quickly. Cos EARTH.

Aziraphale knows the Earth came with a manual and an expiry date. He even told this to Angel!Crowley aeons ago.

So Aziraphale's journey (is not stopping believing Heaven is good and truth and light) is believing that he has choices. That the Plan might be Ineffable but it doesn't have to follow what he was told it must follow.

Crowley says, look, let's try, what do we have to lose. You like Earth as much as I do. And he gets Aziraphale to agree, they hatch a plan.

We watch Crowley come to love and trust Aziraphale through the ages after all he has been through. We watch Aziraphale to guard their little existence and carefully push at boundaries of what he thinks he can get away with. He wonders at what things are really like. What do they mean.

Their journey, is towards each other.

I don't know how they will smash the System before they fall into a tight embrace and never let go, but I know they will. Even if they have no idea yet that that is even possible. How could they.

And if I see one more post about how Aziraphale was backsliding and choosing his ‘faith’ over Crowley in the Final 15, I will set the internet on fire.

I can never decide if Heaven and Hell are more like mafia or like a dictatorship. Maybe a mix of both. Just cos they couldn't be killed, they were left alone for a bit. Didn't last long though, did it. They needed to be separated so they don't stop another go at destroying the little Universe project God started. I guess the Archangels are quite fed up with it.

Remember. Aziraphale and Crowley have nowhere to go. They never had. The best they could do was keep their little places on Earth. For themselves. For each other. Until they couldn't.

If you thought Aziraphale won't take the chance to have a tiny glimmer of an opportunity to destroy the fucking system in whatever way he can come up with (instead of what, being downmoted, having his memory erased too?), than you don't get him at all. Did he want to stay? You heard him say it. Was he allowed to? (No, really Metatron, nice chat but do fuck off for real now, I have a date with my demon). If you think Metatron wouldn't be back with a punishment for helping Gabriel than I don't know what to tell you.

Remember this?

And then they threatened the demon he loves.

ALSO Why do people keep bringing this back to justify their vague (or not so vague) dislike of Az (but but Neil said "I think Aziraphale needs to learn") cos they think Az betrayed Crowley by leaving or something. The angel is just so stubborn. And he just won't listen to Crowley... right? /s And they ignore all the other wonderful things Neil says about Aziraphale. Especially pointing out again and again and again how smart Aziraphale is. And you can see this. In canon. On screen. In the words and scenes of what Neil wrote. You can see Aziraphale's struggles - he is a part of something he disagrees with and has no way out (Hell is not a way out btw) and tries to live in his existence in the little bubble with Crowley while being extremely careful not to have it burst. Until it inevitably does. Just as he always knew it would. But okay, if you want to have Good Omens be about a demon who figured everything out and is now waiting for his fluffy little angel to catch up and apologise to him (a million times) for being stupid so they can finally ride into the sunset, have at it. TL;DR - Heaven is good and Heaven should/could be good are two different things - Aziraphale is not an idiot; whether he still believes God is good/neutral/whatever and just the management bad or not is up in the air, we can't know unless we ask him, but it's definitely not so simple as he needs to see it's bad, like Crowley did, end of story - The Ineffables HAVE NOWHERE TO GO. There isn't a secret third option where they can leave for and be happy if only Aziraphale opened his eyes - it's what the story is about - Crowley left Heaven for an even worse place. It would make zero sense for Aziraphale to follow his journey. Crowley is not free and doesn't have all the answers - I bet it has never occurred to either of them the whole System can be ever changed (we don't even know if it can be. The System is bigger than the UNIVERSE) - But I think that's what they'll do in S3

[perseruna]

Endiness made a beautiful long post with all his quotes on that topic that I think is very informative and worth looking at, so here’s a link to that. And with that already discussed, I thought I’d make a thread of all his changes that we are aware of, because when you look into them, you find that none of his “book accurate” changes are actually book accurate. 

His decision to make Geralt grunt and cut his lines.

HC: "All the grunts, I either added or I didn't say anything and just grunted instead. It was often up to the other actors to go, 'I think he's not gonna say anything now.'"

JB: "Henry likes to cut his lines, 'cause he's lazy. No, he literally just likes to cut them. He likes to do more up here [frames his face with his hands] and just with face and hmms and grunts. There's a lot of hmms, and so I often have to take a lot of his lines and turn it into a lot of my stuff so that the plot happens."

So, as everyone who has read the books knows that Geralt is and always has been a yapper. Gerakt often talks or thinks in monologues, and definitely not in short grunts.

Of course when the audience started making fun of Geralt for not being able to speak in full sentences Henry promptly went back on admitting the blame and instead said that the big bad writers were the ones who didn't give him lines, and now it was his life’s mission to fight for a book accurate Geralt who speaks. 

Roach’s death scene

After S2 came out, Lauren received a lot of backlash for Roach’s death scene, with multiple sources citing that she wanted the moment to be more “comedic” before the brave Henry Cavill stepped in and refused to participate in such horrible anti source material activities.

LH: "Henry was so unhappy with the line. Finally I said, 'You know what, you come up with something. I trust you, you know this material so well, you know the book so well, you don't even have to pitch it to me.' And he came back the next day with a beautiful speech that's at the end of 'Sword of Destiny' when Geralt is facing death.”

This is the line he ended up using:

“Enjoy your last walk across the meadow and through the mist. Be not afraid of her for she is your friend."

This was Lauren’s response AND the original line.

LH: “Here's what was scripted, in homage of the fact that a previous Roach had existed, and another one will exist soon. It's hardly a joke. Henry wanted a longer, more emotional moment, which I was more than happy to give him. Don't create drama where none exists.”

So in S2 Geralt ends up quoting a part of his monologue from ‘Sword of Destiny’ when he’s at his lowest after thinking that Yennefer had died at the battle of Sodden Hill, and he has nothing left to live for. Which to me doesn't work that well with Roach at all. That line was a response to Geralt thinking he's lost the love of his life, not his horse. In my opinion, the original line Lauren penned out is more heartfelt and actually more emotional and more book accurate as well.

The absolute removal of any Triss and Geralt “romance”

This one we don’t have that much information on in comparison to others. But there were multiple reports that at the beginning of S2 Triss and Geralt were supposed to have some kind of a romantic scene with each other which then was cut during production, and it was largely speculated that it was due to Henry Cavill. 

“Several months ago we reported on a sex scene happening between Geralt and Triss, sometime in the first half of Season 2. That didn’t happen, as we all saw, but here’s what we know about the original plan for that: Geralt and Triss are in a room together, they seem friendly at first. They are playing some kind of weird game. Whoever wins a round, gets to ask a question. We’re not privy to the exact flow of the conversation, but it eventually leads to both of them ending up in bed. We can only guess why this was cut, but perhaps it was thanks to Henry Cavill.”

Now, irrelevantly on your feelings on book Triss and Geralt you have to admit that that short-lived “romance” is indeed a part of the books and therefor book accurate. So the removal of it would go against Mr I’m fighting to make this show as much book accurate as possible. 

The removal of the Yen and Geralt sex scene in S2

"We just wanted to be very careful that it was true and real, and it didn't turn into something that we, as actors, didn't believe it should be," Cavill stated. When Yennefer and Geralt unite, they embrace, but it doesn't go further than that. He continued: "We wanted it to be emotional rather than sexual. It was really, really important, and we had to lean away from what was originally on the page." Initially, Geralt and Yennefer were written to have a more passionate night. Henry Cavill and Anya Chalotra went to "The Witcher" producers and explained why they thought a steamy evening was not the way to go. "These are people who believe one thing about the fate of another and then find out something else is true," Cavill said about Geralt believing Yennefer was dead. "That's not how they behave," the actor added. "How they behave is they just want to be with the person and emotionally recognize their existence again in that shared space.”

This one is a bit tricky because I am willing to get behind an actor who doesn't want to do a sex scene out of comfort reasons or whatnot, but Henry saying that "That's not how [Yennefer and Geralt] behave”, is quite absurd in my opinion. Because that is very much how Geralt and Yennefer behave, especially in the short stories and ToC. They are inherently a very sexual couple who come crashing in and out of each other’s lives while having very passionate sex. But I can understand wanting this scene to be more “emotional” (as if sex isn't emotional), so this one I am willing to give him a bit more leeway on. (But then again looking at the blinds saying that he refused any sex scenes because oh his “ideals” and was allegedly really nasty to Anya about it, well..)

Geralt being the perfect father figure to Ciri with no flaws and no struggles (which inevitably snowballed into the Yen Betrayal Arc)

This one I don’t see talked that much at all, and to me this one is his most detrimental one. 

@LHissrich: “In interviews, Henry explains how he felt strongly that Geralt NOT be bumbling, nor a struggling father figure. In fact, a lot of S2 is about how Geralt does come from a loving (albeit unconventional) family. Henry was passionate about this shift, and we discussed it a lot, and ultimately thought it was wonderful for his character development. But it also had the domino effect of changing what Ciri needed from Yen when she entered the picture. Thus, introducing the idea of balance.”

So I don’t know about you, but I love when characters have flaws and naturally progress be it for good or bad, some would say that that's what story telling is about, well that someone wouldn't be Henry Cavil. Geralt being a struggling father figure at first, someone who makes mistakes and learns from them and tries is very much a prominent theme in Blood of Elves and is actually very real, people make mistakes! Especially in huge shifts such as “becoming a father overnight’ but we didn't get that because Henry refused to play it that way. What we got is Geralt who already basically knows exactly how to parent, he always knows what to say, what pep talk to give and also doesn't hold any resentment and any negative feelings towards Vesemir at all. It's all one dimensional happy family here! Which goes against not only the books but what he preached about fighting tooth and nail to make the “forgotten” male characters three-dimensional as well because the horrible feminist Lauren only thinks about female characters. 

Lauren then goes on saying that “it also had the domino effect of changing what Ciri needed from Yen when she entered the picture. Thus, introducing the idea of balance” So, it is fair to speculate that Henry’s refusal to showcase Geralt having any flaws at all and act book accurate snowballed into The Controversial Yennefer Betrayal Arc. 

These are the ones that I can remember off the top off my head, so there might be more, there’s probably more that we aren’t even aware of. I think putting them all together showcase a very interesting picture. One of Henry Cavill never actually understanding who Geralt fundamentally is as a character, and of him not being a team player at all. I just hope that more and more people are aware of the insane PR his team did for him when it came to this show, and that more people are able to see through it. 

[longbobmckenzie]

Things I'd do...

... if I were a Fusebox writer. Fusebox, if you're reading this, feel free to take these into consideration. I know you won't though because it would require more work on your part.

(note: this ended up being a lot longer than I expected, but I probably should have expected that)

5 girls, 5 boys

Let's go back to the early seasons when we started off with a full lineup of 5 couples to start off with. Like I said, this means more work, more characters. But it also allows for...

More unromanceable characters

Hear me out. The last truly unromanceable male character was... Toby? I think? But for the most part, all the male characters from S6-S9 are available in some way (even if it's only at the finale/reunion, which is really just a copout from FB because they don't want to branch routes but still want to be able to say that everyone's romanceable).

Here's the thing. Everyone wants to romance their favourite characters, nobody wants to meet a character and really love them only to find out you can't have them. Trust me, I've been there. But it's also not the end of the world, and it means you can read/write fanfics for that character, pine for them from afar, etc etc. Maybe it's my sadism talking, but it kind of makes things more interesting in a way? To me it's kinda boring to have all these guys in the villa who would get with me at the drop of a hat (obviously excepting the slow burn LIs).

But the thing about unromanceable characters is that you NEED them in order to write a realistic season with distinct characters who aren't just interchangeable with one another based on MC's choices. Those characters can help drive the plot, they can have canon storylines, they can be friends, they don't have to share dialogue, etc etc.

First coupling

So with those first 2 points out of the way, here's what I'd like for the first coupling:

Of the 5 guys, 1 is completely unavailable to be chosen, and another is not an endgame LI. Think Noah and Rocco in S2 - one can't be coupled up with but is still a slow burn LI, the other CAN be coupled up with but is always going to be dumped. I think this formula from S2 works so well because it still means you have 3 OG guys to be endgame LIs but also allows for the other 2 to be part of fixed plots.

I want the boys to choose instead of the girls. HOW HAS THIS NOT BEEN DONE YET?!?!?! On the show, the girls only picked on day 1 for the first... 1 or 2 seasons? and then it was always boys choosing until they started messing around with other options. But this could work SO WELL for the game! MC has the choice for each guy to step forward or not. If she steps forward for the unromanceable guy, he picks someone else. If she doesn't step forward for someone, he won't pick her. If she steps forward, gets picked, and then steps forward again for someone else, that person steals her and it gets acknowledged throughout the game a bit (minor branching!) If she doesn't step forward for anyone, she ends up being the last picked. IT WOULD BE SO MUCH FUN

Couples/Sneaking around

You shouldn't be able to do bits with someone you're not coupled up with except under certain circumstances:

Casa Amor

You're developing a relationship with someone but not able to couple up with them (or one of you gets stolen) and you're upfront with your partners about going to the daybeds together

You're sneaking around behind people's backs but there WILL be consequences

Just honour the couples, that's the point of the game. Stop letting people go to the hideaway with people they're not coupled up with.

Consequences/Drama

Further to the above, there should be consequences for BOTH parties if you sleep with someone you're not coupled up with. Even if you go to the daybeds and your partners know about it, they should be able to say how disrespectful that is to them.

Sneaky kisses always have a way of coming out on the show, so the same thing should be done in the game. It's harder to branch because some players may choose not to kiss anyway, so those people shouldn't be attacked for something they haven't done. But if you kiss someone and your partner finds out and breaks up with you because of it? And the partner of the person you kissed also dumps them? That would be fun!

Female villains

Just stop with the whole thing where one girl constantly gets up in MC's face. Whether it's because the girl is gunning for the same guy or for other reasons, it's so tired and annoying. Or a girl being a bitch for absolutely no reason.

And especially stop making them WOC!

More filler scenes

This has been one of the big complaints over the last few seasons, and that's the lack of filler scenes. There needs to be a balance, obviously, because you don't want too much filler - but this is how we learn about the characters' personalities. Let us be involved in fun chats, give our MC a personality other than "everyone loves me except that one bitch who hates me for no apparent reason," let us chill with the other islanders instead of constantly being involved in drama, eavesdropping on conversations, investigating who slept with who, and doing a million challenges

(Slightly) Longer season

Season 2 is the only deviation from the typical 13-14 "day" season (S1 is technically 7 weeks squeezed into 14 days, later seasons use volumes instead of sticking to a morning/afternoon/evening format but they fit so much into them that they just feel chaotic). Adding a little filler and stretching the seasons out a bit (5-7 volumes seems reasonable?) should make them more enjoyable to play (and replay?)

Cliffhangers

I love cliffhangers (insert joke about all the LIs I like who do rock climbing), but not every episode/volume needs one. It's perfectly fine to find a natural ending to an episode (like going to bed at the end of the night, which was common in S2), and save the cliffhangers for when they really matter

Make the challenges make sense

I didn't play S8 and I'm not playing S9, but I've heard some complaints about the order of challenges - playing Mr & Mrs in Casa Amor, etc. And I saw that today's volume included the Excess Baggage challenge, which is fine, but that one should always be near the beginning

Have the 'get to know people' challenges (kissing challenges, truth/dare, never have I ever) in the first few volumes. Once people are coupled up and relationships are developing, hit 'em with the snogathon to maybe create some drama (and do it when new bombshells have just come in so you get a chance to kiss the new guy). After Casa Amor, you can do Mr & Mrs, any other couple compatibility challenges (or do one of these just before Casa Amor to create some drama just before splitting up the couples), and of course Snog, Marry, Pie.

Have a few of the random obstacle course challenges, food challenges, building tents/sandcastles/whatever challenges interspersed throughout, but make them mean something.

And for the love of donuts, make the challenges in Raunchy Races objective - none of this 'coolest person' or 'hottest person' or whatever, just stick to tallest/shortest/oldest/etc or 'one person must snog the person they fancy the most' or whatever like in S2

Casa Amor

I think CA is a great plot device, but there's a fine line between 'too long' and 'not long enough' that's hard to figure out. But either way, let's stop with the hideaway and sending couples on dates, because nobody's coupled up in CA. Give everyone a chance to get to know everyone. Have a couple guys who aren't interested in MC. If MC is wlw, give some scenes with her LI where they can talk about the future and wanting to couple up when they have a chance, etc.

WLW Routes

I don't do WLW routes in the game so I don't know exactly what the experience is like, but I know that it's not great - carrying on a romance with someone with no consequences but also not being able to couple up with them and sometimes watching them also be carrying on a relationship with whoever they're coupled up with.

I don't have any brilliant solutions, but why not spend every night on the daybeds together until being able to couple up? Why not have two guys who couple up together on these routes, like in S3? Or bring in another character like Sammi in S1 to even out the couples? Or an NB/bisexual character who could couple up with a girl or guy depending on what MC does?

Ultimately, the show and the game are extremely straight-coded, and it's not easy to account for players being able to couple up with female LIs early on, but every option should be explored instead of just doing what they're doing every season.

[chronicsyd]

"oh you can't say 'Vi doesn't love Jinx like she does Powder' cause with that logic Jinx doesn't love Vi either"

okay, I'll bite. Jinx and Vi Both don't "love" who the other's grown into. Because after being separated for seven years they Both had misconceptions on how the other would turn out like. Vi thought Jinx would be still Powder who was simply being Forced to work with Silco, not that she was Willingly working for him and took the insecurities both Vi and Mylo bestowed upon her and made it her new name/self. Jinx, on the other hand thought that Vi would continue to love her unconditionally no matter How she turned out.

But they were both Wrong.

Despite Sevika telling Vi that Jinx calls herself "Jinx" now, she calls out "Powder" when the two first meet up again, most likely being overwhelmed by seeing her for the first time in seven years, but she continues to treat Jinx like the 11-12 year old that Vi Used to know, much to Jinx's dismay. But you can see the cracks start to form for Vi when she A) talks about her regret in even calling her "Jinx" in the first place and B) when the two are fighting the Firelights and she sees the glee in Jinx's expression in killing them, and it just gets worse from there on out for her. Because that's not the girl that Vi knew, she's changed. And despite everything Vi can't bring herself to love who this new girl is now. Yes, Vi has sat in denial saying she can "get her back", which is part of the problem, Vi's too stuck on trying to get "Powder" back and having things go back to the way they used to be (so yes, Vi doesn't "love" Jinx in the way that she does Powder, people aren't wrong for saying that). And the way Jinx deems that Vi Can "get Powder back" is too much for her, and Vi can't agree with what her sister Wants. She tries to compromise with her sister by "leaving everything behind" but Jinx's own demons don't trust her, and Vi can't see how much distress she's putting her sister in when she tells her to remember Mylo, Claggor and Vander (cause Vi's still set in her ways of "getting Powder back" during this moment).

But on Jinx's side, she claims that Vi "changed to". And it doesn't solely have to do with Caitlyn. She thought that Vi could bring herself to love who Jinx's turned into, despite all her flaws ("I thought, maybe you could love me like you used to. even though I'm... different."), Vi would always be there for her, because that's how Vi's been in the past. Vi's voice from Jinx's past were the thing that kept Jinx going all these years, she said so herself. Despite everything (Mylo's bullying, Powder's insecurities, etc.), the two always had each others backs growing up. The old Vi probably wouldn't've thought twice about hurting an Enforcer, but This Vi can't bring herself to shoot Caitlyn, she simply couldn't do it. And that's too much for Jinx to comprehend. I don't think Jinx can comprehend how or why Vi has let herself grow so attached to this enforcer that she's met merely a couple of days ago but can't show the same for Jinx herself.

Honestly, it's an issue for the both of them, they're both remembering how the other Used to be. And expecting them to still behave in that same way, and grasping with the changes that the other have made has been hard for the both of them.

So, keeping all that in mind; let's talk about "being opposite of what they were in S1" for the both of them shall we? (I'm also gonna add Christian Linke's (co-creator) thoughts from a few days ago as well. I have a lot more to say on Vi than Jinx)

Vi: The main change for S2 compared to S1 is her relationship with Jinx. She probably loses that last remaining hope/denial that she'll ever get Powder back, and with that grows a newfound determination to put an end to the suffering that Jinx has caused. And probably harbors anger and resentment towards Jinx due to her actions. Now deep down would I say there's still love for her sister? hard to say (she probably does in her heart, but her head is going to be leading her this season more than ever) but what I Can say with certainty is that outright forgiveness is off the table. Vi joins the enforcers because she feels what she's doing is right; whether or not you agree is irrelevant. Vi believes she's responsible in the "creation" of Jinx and that what Jinx has done is her responsibility, harboring Vander's words from her past (Christian goes on to ask "can you forgive a monster?" and I think that's what Vi's head sees Jinx as right now, the monster that she created). There's also a discussion of Vi's amnesia from League lore but I don't have certainty if that's going to be put into play this season or not, so something to keep in the back of your mind (for now at least).

Jinx: In S1, Jinx had an unhealthy codependent relationship with Silco due to being tormented by the demons of her past. But with Silco being dead and Vi being committed to taking her down she'll have no one to turn to in the way that she did with Silco. Sure, Sevika's there but their relationship will look nothing like it did with Jinx and Silco. Jinx will have to live for herself and discover her own identity and her own wants for her future; whatever that future holds for her.

[findafight]

I think, despite his former King Steve persona, that the parent Steve is actually afraid of becoming, is his mother.

Hear me out. S1 Steve flips out when he thinks Nancy is cheating on him. Like full crazy ex girlfriend shit and letting his friends spraypaint shit on a marquee and goading the guy he thinks she cheated with into a fight.

And then. He tries to fix it. He tells his friends off, he helps clean up the graffiti, he goes to Jonathan's house to apologize for the horrendous shit he said. And then gets pulled into the supernatural monster killing plot.

So it's clear he knows his insecurity spiral was bad. He does his best to fix things before he ever has to save Nancy and Jonathan's lives. In S2 Nancy and Jonathan are friends, and while we don't see it until the "no, that must have been your other boyfriend" line, Steve's probably still a bit insecure about that friendship but doesn't mention it.

Like. He saw he went off the possessive insecure temper tantrum deep end, and decided that along with being a less assholish 16 year old, he was also going to trust his partner not to cheat on him even if he was still a bit uncomfortable with it.

Given what we know about Steve's parents, that his mom often or usually goes with his dad on his business trips because she "doesn't trust him", he's probably seen his mother paranoid about his father's infidelity as well as desperately clinging to a relationship that is untrusting at best. So he's seen his mom do possibly the exact same as he did in S1 (though less public) and thinks he's not gonna be that.

He is getting his act together. He trusts Nancy and, to an extent, Jonathan (fighting an interdimensional monster together really has a way of at least building respect for each other). He isn't going to flip that Nancy has a boy who is a friend who also clearly has a crush on her. It's fine. Nancy is great, and he can't fault Jon for his feelings. He trusts them. He's trying to move on from the upside down, and he's trying to be a better person, and he's trying not to become his mother.

Then, of course, S2 happens.

[iforgotwhaticalledthis]

Rae Morningstar and Loneliness: An Analysis

SO something that occurred to me recently is how much being alone effects. well. everyone in Fable(not like everyone everyone but like,a not insignificant amount of people.) Their society is shown to be one of few(if not the only) thriving communities, and lots of people deal with being alone either before they join the cast, or during. Take Ulysses. when he shows up in Fable, he has to grapple with the fact that he is the last of his race. Same with Ari- being one of the last of the Aether. And for characters like Icarus, Caspian, and many many others, they have to deal with being alone before they find a community of people they can be around and trust. One such case is Rae Morningstar.

At the start of the story, Rae is alone. Almost everyone has some form of connection. Icarus, Centross, and Easton have ominous bane. Momboo, Jamie, and Easton are family. Haley already knows Momboo. The only people without any connection are Athena, Will, and Rae. Will's not really around much, and well, Athena had a retconned family so it doesn't really affect his character. (Though i totally do have thoughts about this post retconned Athena and stuff but this is a Rae post). However, by the end of the series, Rae is deeply embedded in the community. He was alone once. and he tries his hardest never to be again.

Rae's lowest moments are when he's alone. In season 1, when Enderian makes him that offer, he probably wouldve taken it in a heartbeat, if not for the fact that if he did, he would be Alone. (and also that he might be used against his friends) In s2 when he finds out he and Icarus are brothers, he is so desperate to hold on to that relationship. I think its why he's so desperate to keep that connection. He doesnt want to lose his brother again. Also the beginning of S2 IS SO bad for him. All of his friends, his family all gone. he's alone yet surrounded by the people he knows. He mentions how bad it wouldve been if not for Ocie- the one person who can relate to him. Someone that stops him from being completely alone. Then theres the sculk arc, which, do I even have to explain? In s3 , Rae gets mad at Centross. A big reason is because Centross left him alone. And when Icarus starts to isolate, later on, what does Rae say, in concern "I just don't want them to be alone." Rae was alone before. so now he tries to make sure that no one else in the community is. For example, he reaches out to everyone. He's always the one people go to for help, so that when they need it they won't be alone. See where Im going with this?

Another thing. Each and every time Rae met one of his partners? Bot him and the partner have been alone. Take Caspian- I mean Cas was alone in the prison, he was isolated. And Rae had been banned from seeing Jamie and Athena was being kept away. The two people he was closest too at the time had left him- even if it wasn't their own choice. When he met Aax, everyone he knew and loved had forgotten him. And Aax had been sitting alone in a cave. Waiting for Theo to return. Even when they first met, Aax was alone, being the only one to escape from the Telchins, and Rae was trapped in a home where he had no one to turn to. When he met Fenris, ,he was alone, having run from his home to keep people safe. And Fenris was alone after being turned into a wolf who couldnt even talk to other animals. for possibly centuries.

Even in smaller things, he doesn't want to be alone, like when he learns Centross and Fenris forgave Ven. He doesn't know how to deal with that anger, now that he's alone in it. He gets tatoos so that he wont forget these people, so he'll never be alone. And at the end of hist story? He and his family turn into gods. He'll never be alone, not even in death.

Anyway i just had some thoughts. if you noticed any inaccuries/have any points to add/ disagree with any of my points please reblog! i want to see waht other people think. Also i might make a follow up on how loneliness affects other characters, this really got me thinking

[demonioenelespacio]

Lately I've been thinking a lot about Crowley, Aziraphale, their feelings and the way season 2 has recontextualised some very popular headcanons from the previous one.

Starting with the first scene of both seasons: Eden and Before.

I think everyone agreed that Crowley fell in love with Aziraphale in Eden. We all know the exact moment, don't we? And I read countless fanfics around the idea that it was love at first sight for Crowley, while it took Aziraphale millennia to fall in love with him.

But then S2...

His little smile all the time, when he tries to introduce himself… His reaction to "Look at you, you're gorgeous". My man, did you have a crush before they invented them? And my only question is, is this instant interest in the Angel who will be Crowley? Or is he acting like this because he knows who they are, has admired them from afar and finally has an excuse to talk to them?

Regardless of that, the headcanon falls apart. If there's a winner in the oldest crush competition, it's Aziraphale.

And the truth is that all this changes the way I see the Eden scene. We don't know how much Crowley remembers of Before, but, inside, he knows Aziraphale isn't going to attack him right away, the angel is somewhat familiar. Aziraphale gets nervous, but otherwise doesn't react. A demon wants to speak, and, oh, no, it's him. That Angel doesn't exist anymore, what's your name now? This creature is evil, a demon. But he repays him with the same kindness he offered him before.

Even if I still read Crowley's expression as an absolute fascination with Aziraphale, at this point I don't think we're talking about a love story for either of them. By the time of A Companion to Owls, the two are at a loss as to what to expect from each other and they spend the episode poking at each other's edges.

As far as we know, the last time they met was with Noah. Crowley knows that Aziraphale is not a typical angel, but (in theory) he does nothing against God's order to drown all those humans. Is he really going to do something for Job's children? Why? What is his limit? Aziraphale is aware that Crowley is a demon, but is he really going to do this? Can he trust him not to harm the kids? Crowley was an angel Before; even if the Angel doesn't exist anymore, Crowley's core is the same. He is the same kind being.

And then you have the Oh moments.

The moment in the church… I know for many people this was the moment when Aziraphale fell in love. For me it was always more complex than that, but with season 2… Now we know Aziraphale was interested Before, and we have two new scenes to give more context: a story before the fight and what happens after the church.

While I'm at it, I'll take this opportunity to say: the fight is because they are idiots. It's not even about holy water! Well, partly yes, but the argument starts with the fraternizing thing.

Aziraphale has been denying for millennia that they know each other, not because they don't, but to cover their backs. "I'm no nice, don't say I'm nice" insists Crowley every chance he gets to cover his kind acts, unable to overlook "fraternizing."

In case Aziraphale was really covering their friendship with that word, saying "I've got lots of other people to fraternize with" is telling him that they are not so special, that Crowley has more friends.

They fight. But the fight is not that big of a deal. Honestly, to me it has the same energy as the fight when they're saying what to do about Jim. One of them leaves upset, thinks about it, apologizes, and they work together to resolve it in the end. It's a discussion like the one they had about working together to stop the apocalypse. In the book they have conversations that continue after years of not seeing each other; they could have kept talking about this, Crowley making his case, Aziraphale better explaining his objections.

But they don't. The discussion that starts with whether they are friends or not (as if Aziraphale refusing to give him a way to destroy himself if necessary isn't born from not wanting anything to happen to Crowley) is serious enough for both of them to refuse to talk.

In the end Aziraphale gets into trouble and Crowley comes to save him. That's no different from all the other times, it's what they have agreed upon. The Arrangement. But Crowley rescues the books too. And the last time they saw each other before the fight, Crowley was dragged to Hell to be interrogated and, possibly, tortured. His sin? Being slightly kind to a human. At the church, Crowley spends a demonic miracle to save some books. What excuse is he going to give for that? Aziraphale realizes that, whatever happens between them, Crowley is willing to risk punishment for a kind act towards him. Maybe Crowley does feel something for him, cares a little bit about him.

Because I don't think Aziraphale knows how Crowley feels until then. This Oh moment is not Aziraphale realizing his feelings. He's an angel, he feels love, and now we know he was infatuated from the beginning. Almost every time we see him meet Crowley, he's always amazed.

Is he really not going to be aware of his own feelings? No, I've always bet it's the other way around. Crowley is a mystery to him; I suspect that, just as angels and demons cannot detect each other (except Crowley, as I proposed here), Aziraphale doesn't know if Crowley feels love, of whatever kind, for him.

But he cares. And Aziraphale spends the night trying to say they are friends whenever he can, tentatively, seeing their reaction to the word. And they return to that state of blind trust in each other.

On the other hand, Crowley's Oh moment…. I don't think it's when he realises he's in love either, sorry. And it's because, to me, they know. They know by then their feelings and each other's. But they've been thinking for so long that it's all too complicated that even when they're on their own side they don't know how to make it simpler.

In the "You go too fast for me, Crowley" scene I always get caught up in what he says before. "Perhaps one day we could go for a picnic. Dine at the Ritz." Options that sound suspiciously like dates, even though he's turning him down again, covering their backs. They eat at the Ritz in the first episode; in the last episode (S1) they go to the park for ice cream as if it's an usual thing for them, just another monday. Even if they're not together-together, they already go on dates do these things.

To be honest, after S1 I always imagined that they weren't going to do anything different. Well, maybe hold hands in public, but everything else? They already act like a married couple (that's why it's possible for them to divorce hahahelp). So seeing them as they were in S2, I don't think they thought they had to change anything. But between Nina talking to Crowley and Aziraphale's enthusiasm in experiencing his own love story with the Ball, they both thought about changing their relationship at the same point.

But as Crowley once wisely said: it's too late. They are idiots, and in the end both Heaven and Hell stopped them.

[kiirotoao]

Can we talk about Mileven for a minute. Another reason I don't buy their romantic relationship is the fact that most of their one on ones as a romantic couple (S3) are comedic and not very serious. Where are the deep conversations and when are we ever shown how much they understand each other... post (S2). It's almost like once they started dating they became a joke? Yes they have a few sweet moments but it's also scripted to be laughable. (S4) never showed them having a honest deep convo resolving issues and growing romantically. It could happen in (S5) but at this point I don't see the emotional romantic draw.

And then there is Byler to compare it to, where most of their one on ones are much much more serious, deep, heartfelt, with actual evidence of understanding and talks involving their feelings (which Mike seems to not have an issue with unlike his plot in S4 with El). This, mind you, happens to some degree in every season with Will. If Mike just sees Will as his best friend, why is he so serious about Will especially alone together. Even best friends are more casual then this.

Also a side note. The (S3) Mileven straight stereotype of the 'lazy, lying, clueless boy' dating the 'girl who is playing hard to get to teach her boyfriend a lesson' troupe is icky and makes me want El to find her power solo and Mike to remember that the old Mike (who has a special will voice) is a much better person and boyfriend. Thoughts?

Damn! Well said, dear anon!! I couldn’t agree more.

To anyone who says anything along the lines of ‘oh, Mleven can’t be broken up, they’ve been building up this whole time!’ Or ‘here’s the slow burn everyone wanted,’ or ‘Mike and El have grown so much even after fighting,’ I really don’t understand how any of that is founded. I totally agree and I feel like their relationship has been rather unserious. Even in the most serious love-centered topics of support (s1), connection (s2), breakups (s3), and expression (s4), it’s really interesting to me how their relationship has consistently lacked depth.

Despite dealing with some of the most important aspects of strong relationships, they aren’t close enough to showing, providing, or proving to have one. Mike supports El in season 1 as she does him, protecting and aiding each other with their strengths. But… so does everyone in that season to each other? The only difference is that Mike sheltered El which is very sweet, but not inherently romantic.

Then there’s season 2, which I must confess - I think that their reunion scene at the end of the season remains one of the sweetest moments on the show. Ever. It’s raw and emotional, and this was the closest thing we got to something romantic. But what shoots it down is the fact that their emotion was due to forced separation and Mike’s very real complex grief which gets completely glossed over in the show. So, I don’t know. It’s tricky. So are they romantic yet? They get virtually no time together. It’s a no for me.

And oh yeah, season 3 was the peak of unserious-ness. I also don’t enjoy that trope of ‘the boy chasing the girl who just doesn’t get it yet and she snubs him until the very end’ kind of energy. I swear that that stuff is littered in family-friendly movies usually as comedic relief, and Mike and El just barely made that trope more serious at the very least. Their breakup is dramatized and humorous, and the way that it’s mended still makes me chuckle. Mike offers her M&Ms, compliments her looks, they smile at each other, and suddenly they’re all good again? Yeah, that’s not very clear romance to me. All season long, they keep resisting each other. Mike lashes out to everyone and declares that he loves El but can’t say it to her face, and El has Max’s words tattooed on her heart that she keeps asserting that she deserves trust. The two just don’t quite reach each other that season. The second that I heard Hopper say that they’ve only been kissing all Summer long without complaining about them talking, I knew that I was not going to be invested in their relationship this season.

And so season 4 was truly the nail in the coffin, the final turning point. They’re not only shallow in making up, they’re shallow in being together. El isn’t honest with Mike about her time in Lenora, how she’s spent it, the people she’s met, the fun she’s truly having. Mike snaps about Will being disinterested, so it’s pretty clear that he was dishonest about his true feelings that day, too. And the most telling part is that he’s not mad at El. He’s mad at Will.

I think that what the writers have done is craft something so deeply intricate and hidden with Mike and Will to the point of confusion in much of the audience today. Will has always been a buffer of affection for Mike. In season 1 he’s the one they’re searching for. In season 2, he’s the one that Mike protects. In season 3, he’s the true breakup that Mike fights for. In season 4, he’s the listening ear and bleeding heart that Mike relies on. Their love only gets stronger and stronger whereas Mike and El are simply loving under the guise of physical closeness. I seriously think that that’s all that they have for each other.

That hug sequence at the end of season 4 really shocked me, because when I saw Mike and El hugging (not to mention that shot with Will right between them) I thought that it was sweet, but then suddenly Will and El are hugging, the siblings who are absolutely platonic, and it felt more emotional than Mike and El’s embrace. So not only are Mike and El visually equated to a platonic relationship, but their bond doesn’t even hold the same weight as the sibling-hood of Will and El.

It’s just wild to me that people don’t see it. I think that Byler is made abundantly clear for us to root for. The crazy together scene did it for me the first time I saw it. It was and still is one of my favorite scenes ever because it’s the total package. Closeness? Check. Honesty? Check. Hurt/comfort? Check. Matching, nerdy Halloween outfits? Check. The lack of anyone or anything else to distract them? Check. The crazy together scene is a marker of their relationship, and it never, ever dies.

Even though they fight, where are they years later? They’ve gone through supernatural and personal troubles together, and they’re still by each other’s side. “Friends. Best friends.” The same at heart. They promise to support each other, they reconnect, they come back from every breakup, and they readily express things on their minds and hearts. They’re there for each other and tell each other things that no other boys in the party have told each other.

Mike and El try to understand each other, they do, and sometimes it’s just trying that’s enough, but on a truly intimate level, that’s bullshit. Mike and Will have everything that they need and want for each other, and there’s no going through hoops to get it besides internalized homophobia. Which I very well think can be reasonably addressed next season.

So yep. Byler is endgame.

[ellie-r2]

Sorry if this sounds intense, but if they were to ask you to join season 3 for writing, what changes would you make to make the show more tolerable?

Even if you don't follow the book, just in your opinion

Well for me personally I think make both parties' leaders (Rhaenyra and Aegon) actually fight for themselves and be smart

For example when they changed the fight with Rhaenys and making it where Aegon wasn't supposed to be there and having Aemond be the one to burn Aegon even though him and Aemond went there together purposely. In changing that they took away something that the Greens had which is their trust and loyalty to each other and i'm team black but at least have the teams actually be loyal to where they stand. Like same for Daemon lowkey turning on Rhaenyra in harrenhal.

For the things I would do if I was writing s3 if having Daemon actually be loyal to Rhaenyra and her crown. Not saying he has to be loyal to her romantically but have him actually follow her as his queen and fight for her to the death.

Have Rhaena and morning because I want to see her and her actual Dragon. (because of that one rumour going around about her this season)

If possible have the battle of the gullet be introduced the end of this season and continued into the third.

Daeron will make his appearance (pretty sure he'll be in this season) and explain why he was in old town because while in s2 we just know he's there they never stated why and non book readers didn't even know he was the fourth child of Alicent and Viserys.

Those are some of the few things I can think of right now I might reblog later and add more

[ca-suffit]

I'm actually quite sad that we haven't found out ANYTHING about Armand in the epilogue. I mean, turning Daniel is such a huge point in his character, so we'll (hopefully) revisit that in future seasons, but other than that?? Did he take the magnolia tree with him? It's either that or Louis took it out and we know that tree has meaning for him (he has been growing a magnolia even back in Paris).

I know we're not meant to know where he fucked off, but I'd love to see just a tiny tiny glimpse with him alone. Is he with Marius?? DID HE PUNISH HIMSELF BY GOING TO MARIUS BECAUSE THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE???

Idk, the ending was too cartoonishly evil for him specifically, which is strange since this was the present time, so we assume that what we see is the truth. Liniar movie action style. Of course, it's evil via omission of his side of things, so it makes sense he seems evil. But I still think it would've been better if we had some extra 5 minutes in this episode and squished in there a small scene with, idk, Armand crying in an unrecognisable place (even just due to him transforming Daniel). It can simply be a dark room, so they don't have to build Marius' lair already, but ye know. It would be a glimpse that he's actually NOT okay, lol.

This is my only pet peeve, but trusting the writers to present the other side of the coin when we get back to his POV of things. Just hoping that won't simply be in season 5 of all things, lol. Even Lestat got a bit of POV (via the trial) during Louis' seasons, so they'll probs cram it in seasons 3-4 somehow (with Daniel povs).

Sorry for the rant, I hope this makes sense.

u can rant! it's ok. I know there's a lot going on here that ppl are rly disappointed in.

I am personally holding out that S3 will comment a lot on this. I feel like S2 ended similar to how S1 did with Lestat. Armand is a major character in the plot of TVL as well as QotD and a lot they're prbly going to be piecing together for S3. He's not just "gone" (not that u were saying this, I'm saying in general) and I trust that they'll be answering a lot about this and him in S3 or they will risk losing a lot of viewers tbh.

I know it looks cartoonishly villain like rn but I don't believe long term that is the vision for him. The point is that all of these vampires are deeply flawed and traumatized and hurt each other bcuz of it, bcuz they want to be luved so badly but also don't think they're worthy of it.

The fandom is definitely going to suffer thru this in ways tho. some of the lestans are already overly doing the victim bullshit of "now u know how we felt after S1." but they made a whole lot of racist choices to defend the white character so no it's not the same tbh, when ur trying to defend a brown character against a racist fandom.

[altschmerzes]

☔Is there a fic concept you have that you'd like to just explain and share because you're not sure you'll ever write it? If so, what is it?

OH GOSH YEAH THERE IS it's called 'without grace, without understanding' (thanks wrinkle in time) and it's a reimagining of the training arc with roy and jamie in season 3

this got a little long so it is..... under a cut lsdfkjs.

update: 'a little long' this is basically a fic in itself lmfao WHOOPSIES. i guess i may as well actually tag it, enjoy... whatever this is.

started off with me thinking about the myriad of ways that could've been a fascinating plot to use to explore those two characters' trajectories and their relationship to themselves and each other and this sport. roy's lack of trust in himself and his conviction that he ruins things.

and it's like... thinking about how roy's approach is uh. a bit much sometimes and jamie particularly doesn't necessarily react super well to that and has a tendency to take things the wrong way even when they are well delivered, and thinking about roy's concerns this season about his coaching skills. that he's REALLY worried about being a good coach. and the stuff in season 2, where he was worried he was Ruining Phoebe somehow, just.

and there's the jamie of it all. him trying to hard to be better, to do better, not sure how to make it work. how to make it happen. how to be as good as zava, be better than zava. still trying to deserve the second chance he's been given. still a brat a lot of the time bc he is who he is but also trying so hard to be good. be cooperative. be a team player. Work Hard Enough.

so you get into the actual training of it, right. they're working together one on one, and roy is pushing him. hard. and i looked at that and went. okay this is supposed to be humorous but also what if we took it seriously. what if roy pushed him TOO hard and jamie just let him because he’d do basically whatever roy told him to and thinks he’s supposed to shut up and not whine and Be Good. and this somehow ends up pushing jamie so hard he’s just completely exhausted or hurt somehow and roy is absolutely horrified by this. and is like NOPE i cant do this i shouldn’t be doing this and doesn’t really communicate to jamie why he’s calling it off. he just does it. so jamie thinks he’s done something wrong and roy thinks he’s protecting jamie by (freaking out and) walking away and it’s a MESS they gotta sort out.

somewhere in there there's a thing with roy and the coaches or the diamond dogs as a whole, right. after he's walked away from training jamie one on one and their relationship is extremely strained bc roy is spiralling beyond proportion like Oh Fuck, Oh Gd, I Was Ruining Him, I Was Hurting Him and jamie is like He's Done With Me He Don't Want Fuck-All To Do With Me. so things are... weird. they're not really talking. they're both upset and hating it. but roy sort of. he doesn't stop coaching jamie again at all, but he does sort of. he pulls back. he goes stiff and distant and doesn't engage. he doesn't ice him out like in s2 but he's not. there. either.

and so they're talking and he's like. (in his mind the training is like. paused. they're Taking A Break.) but he's like. i need to talk to you about jamie. and the others are like... yeah, sure seems like it! and roy just admits. i don’t know how to train him. what i know how to do isn’t working. what worked on me isn’t working (ted/beard/someone voice maybe it perhaps Didn’t Work On You in a good way, but-) so What Do I Do.

which gives ted the opportunity to pay it forward with some advice and just - positive reinforcement. maybe try approaching this differently. he’s destroying himself trying to make you happy, make you proud, do good in your eyes. he idolizes you, not sure how AWARE of that you are, but he does. still. maybe try using that - tell him what he’s doing right.

(and that's the fuck of it all right is like. there's this part of roy that's been wondering if he's a bad coach for the opposite reason, too. he's been wondering if he's been too soft on jamie, and maybe that was the problem. it was something that was gnawing at him, before jamie worked himself sick/hurt and he realized his approach was massively backfiring, that like... maybe he was a bad coach because he couldn't be harsh enough. but he couldn't just. he couldn't stomach being like the coaches he'd had, he just couldn't do it. and then that happened, and obviously that wasn't it, but it was in there somewhere)

but so he talks a bit about that there, like, it comes up somehow - the coaches he had when he was young. when he was a kid and when he was coming up. he talks about how he was trained and they’re like right okay sure and how do you feel about those coaches now? how did they make you feel about yourself? is that how you want jamie to feel about you? is that how you want to know he feels when you talk to him?

he doesn't. he doesn't want jamie to feel like that about him, to feel like that when looking at him. because roy respected those coaches and wanted them to be impressed with him but he was afraid of them too. and he never thought for a minute that he ever lived up to their expectations. and fuck, gd, he never, ever wants that for jamie.

and that's the point ted and beard and company sort of gently make to him too like.

and so it's like. he trusts you. he looks up to you. he'd do anything you asked him to. that's good, that helps, but it means you gotta be careful too, y'know?

so he has to figure out a new approach. and it's like. roy doesn't need a personality transplant, don't get me wrong. he's never gonna be ted and he doesn't need to be. that's not the goal here. it's about figuring out how to be tough without being mean, right? and maybe a little about figuring out how to let himself soften.

(especially since half the time it’s his own younger self he’s hollering at imo. and so treating jamie better sort of asks him to realize he should’ve been treated better too. Be Kinder To Him And In Doing So Give Your Own 24 Year Old Self Some Gentleness And Grace.)

so roy offers to resume training with him after some other stuff happens etc, this is the part i have less thought through lmao.

(there's a subplot also with isaac and captain stuff and figuring out there's something up with jamie and not knowing what and trying to piece it together. love that too.)

and there's a scene in the end, right, where we get this whole... they've sorted things out, they're resuming training again, roy has extracted a promise from jamie to Speak The Fuck Up if things aren't going well, and he's promised to be less of a hardass generally, and then there's a bit where he like. apologizes for ever having been that hard on jamie in the first place and not thinking about whether that was the right approach.

and jamie just... he shrugs. he's not affected by this. "gotta make sure i don’t go soft, yeah?" and roy is like. no. absolutely not. stop right there.

which is when roy then makes the very specific point that like. when they talk about jamie’s performance on the pitch and how he should approach it sometimes he needs to be a prick, and he needs to worry about being permissive or passive or whatever else, but even if they have to bust out a thesaurus they will not be referring to him as soft. we will not be using that language here. do you understand me?

which... jamie. doesn't, really. he's like ??? and tries to brush it off at first like pshh that’s just the same thing “don’t want to be noncommittal or passive on the pitch ain’t that just the same thing as soft just more letters” and roy is like no. no it’s not. there’s implications in- in calling someone soft that there ain’t in there, and even if it is, so what. that’s a word that’s been used to hurt you. right? and jamie’s just kinda sullenly silent and roy goes right. which is why im not fucking using it. that’s the fucking point im trying to make here. if i can help it im not gonna fucking hurt you because i really don’t want to.

which y'know. is a lot. it's a lot for both of them. but they figure it out.

i’ve been wanting to do something like this for a while tbh but keep being like no that’s excessive- that’s dramatic- whatever this arc is gonna turn into it doesn’t NEED to turn into an angsty character/dynamic study- but honestly who cares. why not have fun with it. why not get into some of the vast unexplored potential here. maybe one day i will.

[lunabug2004]

Mike Wheeler Is a Good Leader! That's a Fact! So Why Do the Characters Themselves Seem to Think Otherwise? :(

This is me genuinely asking. We know for a fact that Mike Wheeler is the leader of the party. It's literally been told to us by the Duffers. It's an indisputable fact; he makes the plans, is the first one to know where and when things need to happen, and makes sure the party stays on the right track. He's a great little leader! So why do the party themselves not seem to share this belief, or at least acknowledge Mike's intellect? Examples after the break.

In s1, Mike very clearly takes the leader role from the start, even being the one Hopper chooses to answer his questions. He's the one who starts the search for Will, makes most of the plans throughout the season, and blah blah blah (we've all seen s1 and I'll dive deeper into his leader qualities in my character analyses when I continue them). The Party doesn't seem to notice all of his plans and ideas being true though, and when he tells them they should leave the school in ep8, they don't listen and even argue with him. Next thing they know, the bad guys have found them. Big surprise, Mike was right!

In s2, they seem to acknowledge his role as leader more at the beginning, with the whole asking permission for Max to go trick-or-treating thing. But when he is suspicious about Dart, they don't seem to take his worries to heart. Or when he expresses his worry for Will multiple times and they just blow it off, but then... well, we all know what happens. Right again! And yes, again, the only way they successfully save Will and close the gate are because of (or because of the help of) Mike's plans.

In s3, I think we see more of them actually listening to him plan-wise, like with the sauna test, but then they completely disregard his leader-intellect/instinct about El overusing her powers. Big surprise, Mike's right for the millionth time!

Of course in s4 he's separated from the party so there's not much to go off of there, but I'm sure I could think of more examples of this from the previous seasons if it wasn't so late when I'm writing this.

The point I'm trying to make is that I find it really odd that the party doesn't have more trust in Mike as a leader after he's proven time and time again that it's his role and he plays it very well in the group. I know they always end up following his plans (and they work every time!), but it's not before they disregard everything he's saying at first despite him literally always being right. I seriously can't think of why this is the case, and maybe it's just because they're kids and are gonna question each other, but I thought it'd be interesting to point out since this pattern seems to happen over and over.

Please comment/reblog and tell me your thoughts!