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mrs-gauche · 5 months ago

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Ohh, that was wonderfully put and I 100% agree!

OKAY, SEE, this is a theory I've been subscribed to for YEARS, so I would like to refer back to this line of posts, and also this one... and ALSO, like, all of Solas' dialogue in DAI, actually. lol

I'd also like to quote myself again. 😂

In this banter, Cole reveals to us that Solas’ mind immediately goes from “It’s hard for me to accept I’m not a spirit” to “the people that were lost when Solas created the Veil”. To me, this pretty much confirms that the people of Elvhenan and spirits are connected, if not one and the same. It’s assumed that the Evanuris mined the Titans to somehow create bodies for spirits to manifest, and that Mythal gave Solas a body against his will. There’s also the theory about the creation of the Veil having caused the separation of body and spirit.

This part in particular, is especially interesting to me.

Cole: They are not gone so long as you remember them. Solas: I know. Cole: But you could let them go. Solas: I know that as well.

The thing about spirits is, as Solas himself told us, that "If a spirit dies, it may only rise again if the idea giving it form is strong, or if the memory has shaped other spirits" and that spirits have the ability to make people forget. And everything in the Fade IS a memory after all. So... if Cole is referring to spirits in this banter, who were maybe corporeal people before Solas created the Veil, then what does it say about Solas being perhaps the only one to remember them as they were?

BUT... in addition to ALL of this, there's one other very simple thing I've never brought up here.. and honestly, in the many years I've read people's theories, from what I've seen, I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about more.

When Solas describes to the Inquisitor what a world without the Veil would be like... this - and ONLY this - is what he says:

"Imagine if spirits entered freely. If the Fade was not a place one went, but a state of nature like the wind. Imagine if spirits were not a rarity, but a part of our natural world, like a fast-flowing river. A world where imagination defines reality. That is what the world could be, if the Veil were not present... For better or worse."

Isn't it interesting that there's not a single mention of elves or Elvhenan here? Like... at ALL?

I'm aware that he says "I will save the elven people. Even if this world must die" in Trespasser. I just think that the elvhen's connection to spirits/their souls or their potential spirit origin was why they were immortal (the hints are all there in the Old God souls or Solas' very suspicious use of the word "soul") and when Solas created the Veil (which was actually intended to be solely a prison for the Evanuris), he severed that connection, trapped the spirits in the Fade, and in doing so, "took everything from the elves, even themselves".

"Spirit self, seeing the soul, Solas, but somehow sorrow."

I think the hints are everywhere, and I will hold onto this until I'm proven completely wrong. lol But for now, this is the hill I'll die on. 😂

Theory: Solas isn't doing it to save the elves, he's doing it to save the spirits.

With the new information coming out about Solas's plan in in DAV and the much-memed back and forth between Solas and Varric, I think we may have gotten the wrong end of the stick regarding what is at stake, or why Solas is doing what he's doing. There has been increasing back and forth about whether the Veil should come down in the decade since DAI, but a lot of conversation has focused on a) the collateral damage necessary to do so and b) elven immortality. The assumption being that Solas has decided that any collateral damage (with opinions varying from 'some' to 'apocalyptic' in what they expect that to look like) is worth it to bring back ancient elves, aka 'his people'.

However, repeated dialogues throughout DAI and Trespasser paint a different association - Solas refers to the elves as 'our people' when convenient (eg when trying to get the Inquisitor on side following their first confrontation with Corypheus). When you or other characters ask him about what he considers to be 'his people' he either dodges the question, or to Abelas:

Solas: There are other places, friend. Other duties. Your people yet linger. Abelas: Elvhen such as you? Solas: Yes. Such as I.

While this seems pretty straight forward, it begs the question what the ancient elves, what the Elvhen actually are. Think about the origin of Elvhen as a deliberate identifier, rather than just using 'elves' which Solas repeatedly rejects. Breaking down the word the answer may have been staring us in the face this whole time: vhen is translated to 'people', and El is the root for spirit. I think there is a very good chance Elvhen literally translates to 'spirit people', and that has been the key distinction all this time.

What that functionally meant before the Veil (spirits that chose to manifest personality/bodies, spirits that were bound to bodies, perhaps 'possession' or symbiosis was the norm) is yet to be determined. But the connection to spirits is what Solas considers his people, which is why appeals to save 'this world' will ultimately fail for him, even in a state where he acknowledges mortal beings are 'people':

Inquisitor: We aren't even people to you? Solas: Not at first. You showed me that I was wrong, again. That does not make what must come next any easier. Inquisitor: You'd murder countless people? Solas: Wouldn't you, to save your own?

While many players would consider the current world state 'acceptable' to those living in it, that discounts the perspective of those trapped on the other side of the Veil. The spirits are very clearly suffering, which will not improve while the Veil remains, and it's why Solas can't just live with 'this world'.

#tinfoil time #I will probably become the most annoying person if this turns out to be true lol #also Solas will have a new name (or rather his true name) by the end of DA4 #because he will not be Pride anymore :D #it's all right there in his dialogue when he returns to Skyhold after Wisdom's death 😁#da4 #datv

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corseque · 3 years ago

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I disagree! I think you're really smart :) I love reading your theories. This whole time he's been saying 'my world' and 'your world' I think him suddenly changing that and saying 'this world' is him accidentally letting slip his true intentions, I just find it weird that he'd suddenly be talking about saving it, when he's said multiple that it has to die

He “destroyed the world” before but it’s still around, and the reason he did it before was to save it. In his banters with Cole, he’s super guilt-ridden about it, and never describes it proudly. I just flycammed Trespasser and his body language when he’s describing the Veil is so sad, like he has to turn his whole body and his face away because he’s so ashamed. And Cole says that Solas is always thinking about the Veil and this shame, which is sad too. So if we suggest he’s doing this same thing again—thoughtlessly/pointlessly, after all that guilt—feels out of character to me.

I think he has PTSD extremely bad and whatever is actually going on, it’s so vital that he is literally murdering his oldest and dearest friends over it. And he is a moral man, who is not insane and not evil.

He doesn’t have the orb anymore, and I think that to get that same amount of power to tear down the Veil, he may have to become a monster or a demon. I thought “I would not have you see what I become” was him talking about his morals, and becoming a moral monster, like “I’ve never had to step past this line before, but I’m taking this step now.” Like, in the ancient past, he needed to put up the Veil because he had no choice to save the world, and in tearing it down now, he’s making a different and more deliberately heinous moral decision. He would not have you see him.

But right now after Tevinter Nights I lean toward another interpretation—one where “I would not have you see what I become” is just literally about him having to become a horrific monster or demon to have the power necessary. Meanwhile, the moral decision is actually the same (saving the world) and perhaps as necessary as it was the first time.

Or it could be a mix of both of those.

#Dragon Age #Tevinter Nights #DA4 speculation #Solas

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virlath · 4 years ago

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The great betrayal

So far, we’ve only really heard what happened in ancient times based on Solas’ own words. But we also know that he speaks in half truths. His own dark legends as told by Felassan, his old friend, paints him as cunning and practiced in double-speak dark wisdom.

His MO is reminiscent of Imshael, a forbidden one who tricked Michel into releasing him (thereby reactivating the eluvian network, which was ultimately what Solas wanted). They both blur the line between spirit and demon and they both traverse the fade as if it is their home.

And I have to say, Solas’ version of events leading to Mythal’s death doesn’t add up.

He claims the precursor to the veil was the evanuris killing Mythal. Abelas reaffirms this version of events by specifically saying ‘the dread wolf had nothing to do with her murder. She was slain, if a god truly can be, by the people who also destroyed this temple’.

But at the end of the day, the only person who stood to gain the most from Mythal’s death was Fen’Harel and his slave rebellion, not the evanuris.

After all, the evanuris’ entire claim of divinity hinged on the claim that they were truly ‘immortal’.

"The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can. In this place, we teach those who join us to unravel their lies."

Based on ancient mosaics at Fen’Harel’s sanctuary, we can presume the evanuris knew the secret to ‘effective immortality’ by body hopping. I am assuming the method to do this is probably similar to Corypheus and his arch demon.

It seems that not many regular people knew of this secret however, which was why Solas took it upon himself to start his rebellion, expose their mortal flaws, and fight back against them to reclaim their freedom.

If the evanuris betrayed and killed Mythal as Solas says, they would have had to announce to everyone that the head of their pantheon, the goddess of love and protection, was dead and gone forever. But in doing so, they would also be exposing their own false divinity, revealing that they themselves can also be deposed.

According to Solas, Falon’Din started many wars to gain more worshippers. They likely started all these wars because the evanuris had the security of effective immortality. Their primary motive seems to gain more followers or slaves, rather than power over each other. In fact, Solas’ surprise at learning Corypheus also learned this secret proves it was not common knowledge even back in ancient Elvhenan.

So, knowing that the evanuris likely kept the secret of true immortality close to their chest, why would they want to off Mythal completely? Deposing her did not automatically mean they gained more power. Remember her killers destroyed her temple but left her well intact, and that was really where a lot of her power lay.

Maybe they were really were power hungry as he says, and mutinied against Mythal. Maybe they were poisoned by the void’s magic. Or maybe, they were manipulated by Fen’Harel to betray and kill her, to set an example and turn people against the false gods.

"The brand of the Evanuris can be lifted from you, that all may know you oppose their cruelties. None here are slaves. All are under our protection. All may choose to fight."

Fen’Harels sanctuary reveals his rebellion actually did attempt to try to fight against the gods. So imagine if Mythal, the head of the pantheon, was actually killed.

Mythal’s death would have sent a very clear message to the evanuris and everyone under their rule- the gods were not divine, and they were all mortals just as they were. This event would have been a huge turning of the tide for Fen’Harel’s rebellion to be honest.

I previously thought Solas and Mythal worked together in their rebellion, but maybe Solas was cunning enough to evade even her. Based on Cole’s dialogue, it wouldn’t be a surprise to learn he was also once a slave of Mythal’s (he left a scar when he burnt her off his face). And as to the reason why he doesn’t trust anyone? His distrust could simply be because he himself is the betrayer.

We can assume from DAI’s epilogue that Mythal and Solas were once close and Flemeth even calls him ‘old friend’. Perhaps Fen’Harel used his close relationship with Mythal as his shield, because the last person you expect to betray you is the person closest to you.

Just remember, an enemy can attack, but only an ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse.

Solas does seem genuinely remorseful about everything and his dialogue with Cole indicates he created the veil to save them. Maybe the evanuris were on a trajectory to destroy the world by using their magic and their slaves in their endless wars. Orchestrating Mythal’s death could have been a big part of his rebellion- he needed to resort to drastic measures to send a clear message.

I did not lead a slave-rebellion against immortal mage-kings without getting my hands bloody

There is also the propaganda on the dread wolf we can find in trespasser:

The pages of this book-memory?-warn of a terrible danger, a wolf with slavering black jaws and pits for eyes. The Evanuris-the elven gods-stand in a ring around it, as if preventing it from attacking.

"Beware the forms of Fen'Harel! The Dread Wolf comes in humble guises, a wanderer who knows much of the People and their spirits. He will offer advice that seems fair, but turns slowly to poison. Remember the price of treason, and keep in your heart the mercy of your gods."

It’s been assumed that this propaganda was released by the evanuris to dissuade people from joining Fen’Harel’s rebellion. But a lot of it also rings true, and it is one of those codices that has bugged me for ages in how foreboding and ominous it is.

It has parallels to the inquisitor’s own journey. It has elements of Solas’ own MO. And it reveals that Fen’Harel potentially even manipulated the false gods themselves.

From the dev notes in DAI, he will kill anyone- even Flemeth. He killed Felassan, his old friend. He says in Tevinter Nights, he will kill anyone without hesitation if they stand in his way.

I think there is a lot of solid evidence of his underhanded tactics in the events leading to Mythal’s death. Maybe he persuaded her killers to leave the well intact so that she could come back as a new being and reclaim her power. As he says ‘his people do not die so easily’. Mythal’s death and creation of the veil could have even enabled the blight as we know it today...

Because as told by Flemeth, Mythal became a wisp, just like Solas’ wisdom spirit friend. Based on dialogue with him, he insinuates wisps grow and reform in the void, where its assumed the blight’s magic is based on.

Maybe his intention was to use Mythal as an example for his rebellion, but also attempt to reform her because she was his friend. But along the way, Mythal’s spirit corrupted into vengeance because she was ultimately betrayed by people she trusted.

If Mythal was Fen’Harel’s big sacrifice, it would also draw so many obvious symbolic parallels to Andraste, who as I’ve said before has a lot of suspicious links to Mythal. Remember Solas’ chess game with Bull in DAI? He sacrifices the queen in order to win the game.

This is of course all speculation and deduction- I don’t claim that Solas definitely betrayed Mythal. But from a story perspective, this would be an absolutely amazing plot twist, even bigger than the reveal of Solas being the dread wolf.

I mean....can you imagine that reveal in DA4?! It would explain so much of his regret and burden of guilt because Mythal was once his closest friend. On a thematic level the emphasis on power and sacrifice and revenge and forgiveness would all be there.

Fen’Harel being the betrayer but not the true killer but the orchestrator behind everything, completely embodying the trickster god trope...ahhh I just can’t stop thinking about this tbh.

#dragon age #da4 #da theories #solas #fen’harel #mythal #dread wolf rises #the evanuris #the great betrayal #elvhenan

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explodingchantry · 2 months ago

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Oh my god I had forgotten about dawn of the seeker lmao that movie is also shockingly hard to find, at least from what I remember, which is even worse.

See I think that supplementary material is fine to have - like if ur a superfan then go ahead and get that extra content. But it's when your experience of a game your spending 60£ on already is lessened because you didn't read every single comic and book and participate in the discord etc, that I take issue.

It is a bit of a fine line to walk, admittedly; would you think your enjoyment of Cassandra as a character is lessened if you didn't watch dawn of the seeker? That your understanding or Cole as a character suffers from not reading Asuner? I think for the latter, absolutely. But at least dawn of the seeker is forgetabble and forgotten enough that it doesn't have as much of an impact. But... The fact that it IS hit or miss, the fact that there are SEVERAL instances where your enjoyment of the game that you paid for IS hindered by not spending even more money on the other media, it's a bit scummy, isn't it.

Especially because, if we take dai as an example, my main gripes with the writing is that it does way too much telling and not a lot of showing. Tevinter nights is almost a direct response to this criticism - by writing several short stories set in the many settings we will encounter in veilguard, we are SHOWN not only the context to a lot of the conflicts and situations we will deal with later on, but also why we should fear the villains.

But it's in a book. That you have to spend extra money to buy.

Corypheus is the slightest bit scarier when you've played legacy, so you have to spend extra money to properly appreciate the villain of the next game. Veilguard will hit harder and make way mroe sense if you've played trespasser and the descent. But it will hit especially hard if you've read tevinter nights, and especially the horrors of hormack. And BECAUSE the horrors of hormack exists, one of my worries is that bioware will say: "there, we did build up the threat. If you don't think the threat is scary you should read this short story!!! See, we listened to criticism and our writing is totally good, but only if you've spent extra money! Which you will because you're a good fan yeah? :) you can't criticize until you've read it all!!"

I really do hope that they do actually put in effort in veilguard's writing so I can be proven wrong. Because then tevinter night can genuinely just be a little extra piece of content that is good for diehard fans but not actually necessary to properly enjoy the new game. But there are worries and frustrations to be had, definitely

hi sorry to come into your inbox for this but i just need. to gripe. every new bit of info we get about the new DA game is making me more and more preemptively tired lol. mostly the way it's looking like eeevery bit of lore that's been revealed has something to do with such and such book. or this comic over here. or this podcast from two years ago. or THIS podcast that is happening now that's a ~discord exclusive~. or this youtube series. or this random VA talk show. etc etc ad nauseam. i am so tired of videogames coming with HOMEWORK you're expected to do just to know what's going on

Please never apologise for sending messages!!

I think its honestly REALLY funny how bioware just doesn't know what it wants. On one hand they say that the new game is fine for newcomers, the way they did for dai, and use this as an excuse for how dumbed down some of the writing is - but then in the other hand the majority of the characters and plot beats have origins hidden behind pay walls.

It was already bad enough when, to understand each game properly you had to have paid for the previous one's dlc (want to know anders' past as a warden? Buy awakening! Want to know wtf is up with Morrigan and the eluvians? Buy witch hunt! Want to know who tf corypheus is and what hawke and varric even have to do with him? Buy legacy! Want to understand ANYTHING about veilguard? Play the descent AND trespasser, our epilogue that we hid behind a paywall!!!!!) and you know at least the dlcs were pretty good on their own so I could forgive it a little bit.

But there's so much extra media now omg I haven't touched a single one of the comics because I'm not rly into American comics, I've read almost all the books and some of them are genuinely fucking mid. And at least back in the day the books were more... Bonuses? You DONT need to read the stolen throne to understand anything on the games, but it's INTERESTING. it explores characters you mightve been curious about. I love that ! Or the last flight is really interesting, just, to see how the 4th blight was beaten, to get to know those legendary heroes, and know why griffons went extinct. A bit annoying because you do need to read it to also understand how the hell they're coming back - but it still feels a bit more like a bonus than a necessity.

But then we have asunder, which also in general just kinda sucks as a book, that is really really needed to understand the mage rebellion, Fiona, Cole, and the cure for tranquility. The characters will explain a lot of those things to you in game, but it leaves you with the certain feeling that you're missing something. It's a huge advertisement for asunder.

Similarly wicked eyes and wicked hearts is hollow if you haven't read the masked empire which is also my least favorite book because it's so damn fucking boring I literally never managed to finish it, but it's mostly because I hate Trick Weekes' writing lmfao. Gaider was wildly misogynistic but my god at least he was entertaining as a writer whenever he didn't butcher female characters.

That's two major plot beats in inquisition that require reading one of the books. And ofc it's major villain and another major plot beat that require having played the previous game's dlc to properly understand.

And since then we've had so much more. I don't know. It's just complicated because I *like* book characters showing up and the books having importance in the sense that, I like reading and I'm a lore nerd lol. But I think there's a lot of frustration to be had as to the sheer quantity of extra media you need to consume if you want to be invested in the story. Because you could say "well just don't buy them then" but I LIKE dragon age, it's story, and plot, but omg some of the books and comics are also so hard to find and so EXPENSIVE. I think tevinter nights costs like 20£ if you want it on paperback rather than Kindle, and don't get me started on the dozens of comics.

At least the podcasts and discord only content isn't nearly as offensive, imo, because they're free. But also there's another issue with all of this extra content - it's that it doesn't get fucking translated. Not often, anyway. Not in as many languages as the games do. That means there are many, many many many players and fans who are just not allowed to learn more about their favorite game series because they don't speak English, because theyre not rich enough to buy 10 books and 20 comics. It feels a bit wrong

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fenharel-babe · 3 years ago

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“He can’t be far from her! It hurts her!”

Cole what. It’s that or “He can’t be far from her! It hurts him!” I think he said something between those 2. Cole what are you talking about and who are you talking about PLEASE LET ME KNOW-

“He’s coming to stop us!”

Pretty sure he’s talking about the big enemy in front of us but👀👀👀. Maybe someone else👀👀.

YESSS IM AT THE SCENE!!!! THE SCENE WE ALL KNOW!!

“May the Dread Wolf take you?”

“And so he did…”.

WHSBBAHW. THE HEARTBREAK IN HER VOICEEEE!!!! And then Solas literally taking a step back when she calls out to him and asks for the truth.

He thought he was prepared but he was not😭😭.

And then I had to close the game bc whoops I accidentally agreed to help Solas with the star choice thing and sorry babe I’m not killing the world✌️😭.

The Lavellan said something around the lines of “I could never imagined you as that kind of person,” when it’s talking about killing the world and HE SAYS, “Thank you.” 😭😭.

AWWW CULLEN!! HE RETIRED AND HELPED PPL WITH LYRIUM ADDICTION AND PROMISED HE WOULD STILL HELP TUE INQUISITION PEOPLE RNJWSBWB.

AAAAAH!! DORIAN KEPT IN TOUCH WITH THE INQUISITOR WITH THE CRYSTAL FOR MORAL SUPPORT AND HELP DJSBEBW. Hnnnng I love thissss.

Everybody did such good things…..Ah I love themmmm. They all deserve pEACEEEE!!!!! Anywayssss, I got the ending of how Lavellan sees the Dread Wolf in her dreams but never if he’s really there bc she turns around and he’s not there anymore😭😭😭. AND THE

“Still she searched, and dreamed, and waited, for a way to change the Dread Wolf’s heart.”

HNNNNG SO SAD AND GOOD!!!! I loved this whole trespasser even if the Eluvian part and dragon part made me a little frustrated. This was glorious and I can’t wait to listen to some sad music :)))

#solavellan #dragon age #solas x lavellan #lavellan x solas #dragon age inquisition #dragon age: inquisition

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planesofduality · 4 years ago

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Full Transcript edition:

“The Story Behind Solas with Dragon Age Lead Writer Patrick Weekes” by Dialogue Wheel/Video Game Sophistry

Reblog of one of my first posts ever. I didn’t understand how tumblr worked back then really, and long story short, I split the transcript of this interview into 3 parts :) I’d probably do things differently now. Reblogging it as a single transcript for my own convenience, as I still refer to some of the things Weekes said here from time to time!

Interview is from before Trespasser DLC; posted to YouTube 12/20/2019

Note: pseudo-reblog

“Interview with lead writer for Dragon Age Patrick Weekes years ago about how the enigmatic character Solas was created, here is what that magic elf could have up his sleeve for us in Dragon Age 4.” Not my interview, just wrote transcript of questions and answers for reference.

Full video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFx1nCdZFjw&t=1s

Time: 2:54

Solas, tell us about little old Solas. Talking about your other characters you created we always start at the beginning. Pen to paper - How did the idea of Solas first start? What was that first iteration?

So actually Dave and Mike both, you know, we - everyone knew who Solas was - everyone knew what the ending was going to be with him. And, you know, Dave and Mike said, “Well Dave is writing a ton of the crit path, the main part of the game. Dave really wants to do Dorian, that’s very important to him, and are you comfortable writing this guy? Are you comfortable writing someone who is going to be, in some respects, deceiving the Inquisitor for the entirety of the game?” And, honestly, how do you turn that down?

Time: 4:02

So really it was that simple then - from there, in the way you described it, they already had some ideas and some concepts about what Solas needed to bring?

Oh, yeah. Originally, one of the most difficult parts of writing him - and, you know, I said Iron Bull was the one closest to how I originally planned him - Solas and Cole are probably tied for least like how I originally wrote them. And, really, it was getting past the secret. It was getting past Fen’Harel.

Iron Bull: badass former spy, the opposite of Sten.

Blackwall: awesome Grey Warden who is not actually a Grey Warden.

Solas: He’s Fen’Harel…

Okay, can he tell you he’s Fen’Harel? No.

Okay, well what are we going to talk about?

[Pretending to be Solas:] “Hey Inquisitor, I’m still not Fen’Harel, do you have any questions?”, “I will not take any questions about whether I am Fen’Harel.” That was the big stumbling block of writing him.

I remember the first draft… the first draft all we talked about was elves. It was elves all the time. Every conversation went “Elves, elves… Elves were awesome back in the old days.. Everything was great with the elves.” And then you’d go, “You really like elves huh?” “No, shut up - I’m not Fen’Harel.” And we all kind of looked at that and went, that’s not really much of a character hook. You cannot have a character hook built on something that you only reveal after the play has watched the credits. That is how we got to Fade expert. That is something where, if something had gone terribly wrong, if we were six months from shipped and we decided not to do anything with elves in the future, we could have taken the Dread Wolf out of the equation entirely and a mage named Solas who loves the Fade, is an apostate but without all of the fear and anger that you think of when you think of an apostate, but is just this guy who wants to travel through dreams and find mysteries and explore… that was a good enough character to stand by itself. That is what it took us a couple of drafts to get to.

Time: 7:04

You mentioned the first two phases of Solas - share with us a little more of that journey, when you finally go to this character that could stand on its own. If you don’t mind, a little more of that journey- was it just those first two and now everything’s cool?

First draft was “ ‘Elves, elves’ but ‘I don’t like elves’”. Second draft was about how much to tell. I think in the next draft it was significantly closer. Anyone who looked at that draft - and, you know, I apologize to anyone who looked at that draft - but, anyone who looked at that draft you would find places where “Oh okay that’s the Solas I know and love. There he is. He likes the Fade.” That’s something that’s actually interesting. But, he lied a lot more. And it actually really weakened his character. We played it so close with both Blackwall and Solas - both characters are the liars who don’t actually lie. They will tell you almost truths. With Blackwall - he never actually flat-out says “I am a Grey Warden.” If you ask him what it’s like being a Grey Warden he will say "Well a warden embodies this and a warden embodies that… I’ve been blessed in my travels.” You know, he never actually quite says “I’m a Warden.” With Solas it’s the same way with the hand wave of ‘in the Fade’. I would start putting ‘in the Fade’ at the end of a lot of sentences. “Yeah turns out that all of the stuff you thought was true in history was wrong… because I saw it…. in the Fade.”

In revision 2, he lied a lot more. On the one hand it worked, on the other hand it made him less tragic, more of jerk when we got to the reveal. So that is how we got to what we made him into: this character who is intelligent, wise… Solas will think very carefully before he tells you anything and anything he tells you is exactly as much as he wants you to know. That actually led to one of the funny little game moments - one of the last things we do is add the places where characters will approve or disapprove. I think what I want Solas to approve us is you actually asking questions . He’s kind of unique in that regard - What Solas approves us is people who are interested in finding out knowledge. Whether they are finding it out from him or they’re talking with other people, Solas wants people to explore, he wants people to find information, he wants people to learn. What he disapproves of, honestly, more than what you do, is in many ways how you do it. You can do the thing that he wants you to do, but if you do it in a knee-jerk way, Solas hates that. He wants to know that you are carefully considering your options and taking a measured approach.

Time: 12:16

When it comes the characterization of a character that you’ve already been give at least some sort of name to. We know that this character is some sort of trickster god - when you were trying to develop and make him some a stand-alone character, did you ever have to rely on what the mythos already established of this particular kind of eighth-seat god that maybe a lot people hadn’t heard a lot about?

Well, I think, like we talked about before, one of the great things about the Dragon Age universe is everything that you learn in a codex entry is something that someone else heard in a story and wrote it down somewhere and you’re reading half of the book. So the good news on that is anything we wanted to do with Fen’Harel, there was so little and what was in there was already so sketchy that we had all the freedom we needed to play with him.

That turned out to be a nice thing because I think if we had someone that was completely by-the-books, already established, their character already given, it would feel like more of a letdown to write that as a character or you would have to play against type, you’d have to do something completely different to show he wasn’t just what the stories wrote about him. And, you know, in some ways that is both liberating but also disappointing to people who might have liked the original stories. This was a fun experience of getting to fill in some of the gaps.

The only thing I think we had to struggle against is that anyone who hears “trickster” or anyone who hears “oh, he’s chaotic and unpredictable” it feels like there is a natural urge to go to “He’s Loki in the Avengers. He’s the guy who’s gonna make large grand-standing plans.” Or, you know, “He’s the Riddler, who’s gonna leave clues to test you.” We had to get away from that: “Let’s tone that back a little bit, let’s not have him be the Jack Nicholson Joker version of the Dread Wolf.”

That’s quite a quote.

You got Dorian as a large, grandiose , extravagant figure and it would have been easy to have him go that way. It was fortunate that we had Dorian as the mage who had the larger-than-life persona already to make Solas be the quiet one.

Time: 15:21

Was there ever an instance where you were really pushed with giving some indicators to the player that Solas may have some connection to this going through the gameplay? Because you do see a lot statues of Fen’Harel. There’s many instances of where you’re discussing it, you’re traveling through those lands. Where do you walk that line, how do you walk that line, or do you just completely disregard it whatsoever?

The goal we had is we wanted the very careful players, the very sensitive players, who were playing attention and watching every scene with Solas to know that something was up and to want more answers and then go to “OH MAN” as soon as the stinger after the credits rolled. But we wanted most players to just go “Oh, okay, he’s like ‘Fade nerd.’ He’s like ‘hippie guy.’”

The other thing we wanted was everyone on their second playthrough, as soon as they talked to Solas to be like “Oh, man, he’s just saying it. He just flat-out said it right there and I missed it completely the first time!” I think we called it the “inevitable in retrospect”- or the “slap the forehead on the second playthrough” style of writing, where we wanted people to see that the most interesting thing about the trickster god is he’s not actually that great of a liar - He is almost telling you a lot of the time. And, you know, some of the tragedy is it that you never had the chance to actually ask, “Wait -are you Fen’harel?”

Time: 17:13

We talked about leaving breadcrumbs, what that meant. Now the big turn, the big scene at the ending: How did this come about, were you really involved in that sort of process and are you happy with it?

Oh, I’m absolutely happy with it. It went through several iterations,. Mike was hugely involved. The writing was definitely done by Dave; it was a huge crit path moment. He had me give a look at the Solas voice, I think I looked at it, I don’t think I actually changed a single word in the final one.

We had versions where after the main plot it was actually going to be a full plot where you the player went and were actually present when Solas confronts Mythal. We had a part where we said, “Wow that’s too big, a lot of players are gonna miss that, we’ll make it a DLC.” So it was gonna be a separate DLC where that happened. At one point we said “No, this is too big, we actually - let’s cut it and address it next game.” So it was going to be this thing that we pushed off into some future content.

I am really happy with what we went with, because, I think, you know, for my money, that short, little Marvel-style, after-the-credits stinger is what we needed. We needed something so that everyone who was paying attention and everyone who was really invested could go “oh my god!” And go, “Okay, so, just in case you were wondering, we’re not done, we have more stories to tell, and we are confident enough in what we are doing that we are willing to throw that ball.” That stinger is essentially us throwing a football to future us, trusting that we are going to catch it. Because, you know, at the end, we had that level of confidence. We felt that we had that level of confidence, we felt we made a really good game. Dave led an amazing team of writers, and I’m really touched that he has the confidence to believe that I’ll be able to carry that on for him.

Time: 19:49

When we spoke to Dave, one of the big moments that he mentioned, was when he created kind of a long-term idea for what’s going to happen in the Dragon Age universe. And to hear him say it, he mentioned that what he originally wanted for Dragon Age: Inquisition couldn’t happen - it was far too big - it wouldn’t work. And you guys had talked about taking that concept, finishing Inquisition somewhere in the middle of that concept arc, and then using at least an influence or something like that to affect the franchise going forward. Speaking with you now, as someone who has taken up the reins, do you know what I’m talking about? Am I talking crazy? Where do you see it going?

Um…

Reasonably - of what you can say on this.

So here’s the last scene of the next game… (laughs). I think there’s an extent to which no plan really survives contact with the audience when it comes to video games. We look at how fans react, we look at what hit, what rang true with everyone. You know, it’s funny, having people react angrily actually isn’t as bad as having people ignore things sometimes. Having people react angrily means they were definitely emotionally engaged, so you know you hit something there. Whereas having fans go, “I don’t know, fine, I guess, whatever” and move on means, “Okay, I don’t know if that’s what we want to go back to. We didn’t actually get anything from them there, they didn’t actually remember that later.” So that’s a phase that comes after every game we ship. We look at what hit, what missed, and where we want to go from there.

Now that said, Dave’s future plan is, I think, fantastic, epic, and heartbreaking. Our plan is to use that as our starting point. To look at where we want to go, what we want to do, and it will not be - and I, you know, Dave and I have talked about this - it will not be the story that Dave would tell if he were still here as lead writer. Because it could never be that. We can get into that when we talk about Cole a little bit, but if I tried to do that I would just be doing a bad impersonation of Dave Gaider and no one is ever going to be as good at that as Dave is. My goal going forward is to, as lead, put my own spin on that process, put my own spin on the plots going forward, on the thematic elements, while keeping those same thematic elements that we had. Because, I think, what Dave has set in motion in three games, countless DLCs and expansions, is something that can endure: The idea that no choice is ever really that easy and that the great events always stem from human-understandable motivations.

So, that is where I think where we are going to go, as vaguely as I can say.

Time: 23:30

Speaking of specifically to Solas: His continuation of the story. Adding that little “Marvel moment” at the end - what do you think that did for the crit path and the overall arc of the story that players experienced in Dragon Age: Inquisition. Do you think they would have been more satisfied if there was a DLC or is that just us gamers complaining because we can’t get everything we want right away?

Well, I think you want to leave people wanting more. “Man I wish you guys had done more” is a better problem to have than “Man I wish you guys had done less.” So, I think, looking at it from inside the studio, we didn’t have the resources to do much more than we did. So it was never going to be the big moment right then anyway. From my perspective, the reason I’m really happy we have it is, like I said, I thought it was a vote of confidence. The team is still the Dragon Age team and it is still the writers and designers who did everything else, who made such wonderful characters and were responsible for such fantastic plots.

Time 25:10

Well, again, looking at that in its completion, it’s good to see that even a character that needed to give you a stinger in your estimation didn’t take away, I guess, from the overall story you were trying to tell.

Well, thank you. Yeah it was obviously the moment we were building toward, but again, the goal was even if we didn’t have that stringer, he was still an interesting enough character that people would have not felt cheated that he was in the party.

Time: 25:35

One of the most beautiful scenes I think in Dragon Age Inquisition is the scene that you get with Solas if you play as a female elf Inquisitor. Talk a little bit about that choice to have this romance option very, very specific. It’s race- and gender- specific. Why that scene - what that scene meant and a lot of the subtext, because it is a very rich sequence of scenes, not just one. And, I think it’s really one of the most interesting romances in the game.

I love that scene because that scene for me shows how far we’ve gone past - not the make myself irrelevant anymore - but how far we’ve gone with the digital acting. Jonathan Epp the cine-designer for that scene put it together and when you take everything that Gareth David Lloyd - the voice actor - everything he did on his lines. And just putting so much tragedy, and making it clear in every line that he wants to say more than he can. And with Jon Epp the cine-designer, just in the wordless scenes: showing the tragedy, showing the heartbreak, showing how much he does genuinely care against his better judgement, and how he finally forces himself to step away.,

You know how I said when we were talking about the Iron Bull - everything, every major moment we do, is there for a specific type of player fantasy fulfillment. And you know, not all types of fantasies are the happy ones. There’s a reason why The Phantom of the Opera was on Broadway for so many years and it’s not because it has a happy ending.

The Phantom of the Opera isn’t exactly the theme for the romance - the razor was something closer to almost professor and student in some ways. He definitely comes across as a mentor in some ways. When he finally steps back it is him beating himself up, not you, saying “Wow what I have done here is actually really unfair to you, and you, player, at the time don’t know that I’m beating myself up because I’m actually 1000s of years old and not the person you think I am and it’s disrespectful to you for me to continue this relationship.” So it’s a very moral perspective for our ancient, quasi-evil, trickster god to come with.

Time: 28:41

And it’s amazing because it’s another instance of content that so few players would actually get an opportunity to see. When it comes to making it that specific, I guess, why was that choice made? Because usually a lot of your content - most of the Dragon Age content - it’s very easy to get really rich, wonderful characters right in your face and have those wonderful “eat-em-up” experiences, why for this one was it such a steep price to get in?

You know, I won’t lie, a lot of it came from some of our designers. Some of the women in the design department really, really loving his voice and saying, “You are absolutely fools if you do not make him romance-able in some capacity.” And, really, his story overall is - and, you know, I think we’ve only hinted at that but I think we have hinted at it enough that I can at least say this part of it - his story isn’t a happy one. His story is one, where, if you look at him and Mythal, there is clearly some grief, there is clearly some tragedy. And, adding in the option - even for players who don’t take it - on my end as a writer, knowing that some players will have this as a star-crossed, forbidden romance, you know, it makes him more sympathetic. It’s important to me as a writer because when you’re writing about someone who, according to Flemeth, is at least somewhat responsible for the bad guy getting the magical item that he used to blow up half a mountain in the prologue, it’s important to have something in there that you can always have, as a writer, look at as your touchstone and go “This is a real person. This is someone who experiences sadness. This is someone who falls in love.” Even if he doesn’t do it with that Inquisitor on that playthrough, this is always someone who can be like that.

Time: 30:58

Where do you see a character like Solas ending up?

(Big sigh) Musical theater.

(laughs) Right when we reach those beautiful moments, Patrick!

I think that it is fantastic that people have emotionally engaged with Solas and I hope we get a chance to explore that in some future content.

Alright and that’s the most that we’re getting right now.

Time: 31:37

Oh, and here’s a little tie in: Here Lies the Abyss, the demon that spoke to Solas - what was all that about, what was that going on?

Oh yes - the demon who speaks perfect Elven!

Yes perfectly to him, and if you remember any of that - did you have anything to do with that?

Yes, Here Lies the Abyss was mine. It was a fun plot. It was a terrifyingly difficult plot, because - I’m not sure how clear this is to players that have one done one playthrough or with one import state - but your key characters throughout the events at Adamant Fortress and then the events of the Fade, it’s a customizable Hawke. Which means it could be a male Hawke or a female Hawke and within that, Hawke from Dragon Age 2 is characterized by one of three different attitudes: friendly, grim, or sarcastic. So, that’s three attitudes times two genders, that’s six different Hawkes and three different possible Grey Wardens: Alistair, Loghain, or Stroud. So, the process of going through Adamant Fortress and then going through the Fade was a crazy juggling act of trying to keep track of “Okay, now one of these five people, these five Schrodinger’s cat quantum people, will say this line, and then another of these five Schrodinger’s cat quantum people will respond with this line.”

It’s important to remember that as we went through everything in Adamant Fortress and the Fade was taking place in that contest. There was a long period time when we were looking at that really going, “Okay, I just have to hope this actually makes sense when it’s nothing but Alistair and my sarcastic female Hawke.”

But, to actually answer your question. As I recall, the Nightmare, who as a friendly, chipper guy was basically - I do basically two types of villains: I do the villain who thinks he or she is the hero, and is misguided and has opposed goals, and is kind of tragic and tortured in that way. And then I do the mean-girl villain who says snotty high school insults.

That’s it - that’s the gambit.

Well, just about, yes. I’m looking forward to see who writes the villain in the future Dragon Age games - so get ready for either tragic pathos or really, really good high school mean-girl zingers.

As I recall, he was speaking Elven to Solas and if I remember right, he said, “Your pride is responsible for everything that has gone wrong” and I think he said “You will die alone.” And then Solas said something that translates to either “Nothing is known for certain” or “Not necessarily.”

And what does all that mean?

Well I think it’s fascinating that people are emotionally engaged, and I hope we have the chance -

It was a very asked question - it was a question that was asked a lot. Specific to that.

Oh, I’m not surprised, and I hope one day that we can tell you. But, obviously, that demon knows that Solas is hurting and Solas feels guilty about some stuff and really wanted to dig in there, and Solas was shouting back.

Literally just describing what happened (laughs). All right, so something that will clearly be talked about in other games.

TIme: 36:22

Dealing with this particular quest I really think that this was one opportunity to involve the Grey Wardens in a story, and a world, that kind of progressingly, after the first game had less and less of a need to exist - let alone in the world - but in the main characters arc. Talking to David I remember initially there was some idea for this particular mission they would just fall into the hole and be hanging out in the Deep Roads, and having out with the dwarves, so tell us a little bit about this creation.

A lot of the process of writing these large plots, like I talked about the razor, you figure out what the core concept is, you always start with a lot of things, and in most cases what you then end up having to do is cut. And if you’re not someone in the studio, talking about having to cut things sounds like you’re losing awesome content, you’re ruining what would have been clearly the best part of the plot. Inside the studio though, most cases what you’re cutting is the stuff that didn’t actually help tell the story you wanted to tell.

So yes in the original version, in a very early draft, actually this was before I was actually on the plot - this predates me - there was, yes, going into the Deep Roads, and when you fell in instead of ending up in the Fade you ended up down in the dark. And finding out what the Grey Wardens in this version of the story had been involved with the Architect from Dragon Age: Awakening. It was an interesting direction, and it was, I think, a very cool direction, but it did not help tell the story of the Inquisition. It was more a story of “Hey, if we wanted to do more with the Hero of Fereldan, here is an interesting place we could go” and it did not help tell the story of “What is the Inquisition doing?” “What is Corypheus doing?”, “How do these two organizations bounce off each other and who’s caught in the middle?” So trying to come to terms with the Grey Wardens in this game not being the protagonists, not being the group that is in the center of the action but being the group that is caught in the middle of this power struggle was something that led to us having to eventually do the re-jiggering that got us to the plot you saw.

#i remember this took forever to transcribe lol #much respect to the people and computers who do this for a living #dragon age #patrick weekes #solas #reblog

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thedinanshiral · 4 years ago

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My personal DA4 wishlist + thoughts

I’ve been teasing this post for a couple of weeks over at Twitter, i’m the worst! But anyway, since game journalism has decided to confirm, once again, that the next Dragon Age game will be set in Tevinter like that’s breaking news, now’s as good a time as ever to write all this down.

Locations: Tevinter, clearly. It’s been pretty much a given since the end of Trespasser in 2015, with that scene where the Inquisitor stabs a map on a table directly on Tevinter as they promise to go after Solas to stop him. But also concept art and several stories from Tevinter Nights heavily imply Antiva, Nevarra, the Anderfells, and maybe Rivain. For those of you who don’t know your Thedosian Geography 101, that’s basically Northern Thedas. And it makes sense, since so far for three games straight we’ve been first stuck in Ferelden, then the coast of the Free Marches, and later the rest of Southern Thedas. We’ve never been North, only heard of it. So in DA4 i’m sure we will finally be able to visit.

Characters: If we’re going to Tevinter, we must meet Dorian again, maybe meet Maevaris Tilani as well (previously only seen in comics), judging from the latest comics series, i’m hoping for Fenris too. And going by the latest teaser trailer, we might see Varric again. As for characters that so far we have no news of, i’d like to see Cole, the Iron Bull, and if by any chance BioWare feels like blessing us with a Hawke/Fenris reunion i might just die happy. I’d also very much like to see the Inquisitor, but more on that later.

Companions: considering concept art and the latest teaser trailer, plus Tevinter Nights stories and new characters, we have an interesting repertoire of new potential companions. A Tevinter mage, an ancient elf (like a temple guardian) or a dalish elf (like Strife), a Nevarran mortalitasi or spirit, Antivan Crows, Lords of Fortune (new faction, kind of like treasure hunters), Qunari lady, maybe an alchemist or shapeshifter, Grey Wardens (possibly a dwarf), a liberated or escaped slave, a Siccari (Tevinter spies/assassins)..even past agents of the Inquisition could return.

Plot: We know Solas wants to take down the Veil. We know there’s two archdemons left, and Grey Wardens are regaining some spotlight in concept art lately. We might have to fight on multiple fronts simultaneously and be strategic about it. Solas might even unleash a double Blight just to keep us distracted while he focus on his own goal, who knows. But many other things are happenig in the margins and all over the place. The Qunari Antaam is having a crisis with some of its members supposedly going rogue, the order they’re so proud of is breaking up, and the whole of Northern Thedas is facing an imminent threat of invasion. Tevinter is still dealing with remnants of the Venatori and might soon be dealing with a slaves rebellion and/or a political and social reform (Magisters Dorian and Maeveris have been working wirh the Lucerni, a group aiming to restore and redeem Tevinter). The Antivan Crows -the de facto rulers of Antiva - may be dealing with a succession crisis, as their First Talon, a powerful feared and respected but old lady, might not be around for much longer and seems her chosen heir has died before his time. Meanwhile in the Anderfells nobody’s heard anything from the Grey Wardens’ HQ at Weisshaupt since the end of Inquisition, and as told in the novel Last Flight, the sudden reappearance of griffons may have had something to do with that radio silence. So you see, get ready for another +100 hours long game because BW has plenty of stuff to keep us busy with. But in short, DA4 seems will be about primarily searching, finding, and dealing with Solas. Regardless of what you decided at the Exalted Council in Trespasser, the Inquisition or what’s left of it is most likely the group orchestrating that mission. As it was so clearly stated then, they need new people Solas doesn’t know so he can’t foresee their actions, so it’s possible the DA4 protagonist is a new agent or a third party hired to do what the Inner circle can’t due to their familiarity with Solas in the past. But at the same time -and this is assuming we get to find Solas in this game - i definitely think the Inquisitor could easily show up again. No, losing an arm doens’t mean they’ve retired forever, prosthetics do exist in Thedas, a world where you can combine dwarven craftmanship with enchantments, seriously, i don’t ever want to hear “but they lost an arm” ever again as an excuse to write them out. And no, marrying Cullen or joining the Red Jennys is no impediment to join the “Stop Solas” Squad; the end of Trespasser means something, mainly that this is personal. Be it they loved them as lovers, as friends or ended up hating his guts for using and betraying them, the Inquisitor’s relationship with Solas makes this very personal, and so having any other character do that face off would cheapen all of it, all that bittersweet angsty development and expectations of either revenge or closure. That moment should happen between those two. It adds a ton of motivation due to their past historyas well, something a new protagonist would lack entirely. My personal best hope is for a sort of dual protagonist thing, say we play new protagonist for most of the game but a selected missions or scenes where we play as the Inquisitor once again and take over for key and heart-wrenching dialogue options. My second best hope is for the Inquisitor to show up as playable for the moment we catch up with Solas. My third and final best hope is for the inquisitor to be a sort of advisor but more like new protagonist’s boss/employer to whom they report back to and get new missions from. The Inquisitor can be stuck in meetings for the most part of it, i just want to know they’re there, behind a door, super busy but there. A cameo like Hawke’s in Inquisition is the bare miminum i can take, anyhting less than that like a mention in a sidequest description or a footnote in a codex entry would be a total injustice.

Romances: I’m open for pretty much anything, as any good BW fan would be. But i’d like romances to feel more alive in the sense that they don’t abruptly get stuck once you exhaust all related quests and dialogue options. As much as my Adaar liked that spank from the Iron Bull, that it was the only thing they could share after their romance was locked was a bit..meh. I liked Dorian’s tho, because his gave one the option to talk a bit, go for a walk, gossip, and sure, it all happened off-screen, and there were limited possibilities, but it was nice and made their relationship feel a bit more real, like they had more to it than kissing and stuff. It happens in most games, once you secure a romanceable companion suddenly you run out of things to do and share with them, and you get stuck with the same 3 lines of dialogue over and over again. There should be a way of solving that.

Side quests: i’m ok with fetch quests initially as it is a good way of forcing the player to go out and explore huge maps, but i’d also like the fetching to have some meaning other than checking things off a list. I want to explore many ruins, and -can’t believe i’m actually saying this- i want a Fade quest. Wait! I know what you’re thinking but don’t kill me just yet, here’s my idea: what if we could visit the Fade at certain locations to witness memories or meet with spirits and recollect information on Solas, his past, his present? Both to understand him better (keep in mind we’ll most likely get a new protagonist who isn’t familiar with him like we are as players) and try to locate him or predict his next move. It would be i think i great way of having visions of Arlathan in its golden age, maybe seeing some of the other Evanuris, how they interacted with each other and with the elves in their service, what really happened ...i just want that sweet, sweet lore, i need it.

Technical stuff: ok, graphics will be amazing for sure, but i also would really really like: better, more varied and longer hairstyles, PLEASE. Body sliders, it’s damn time we get them. Mounts that actually make a difference! Let staves blades make damage in combat, I’M BEGGING HERE. Combined classes, MAGICAL ROGUES! A homebase we can fix up/build on/redecorate as fully as possible (Skyhold was great and i love it to pieces but why were those walls NEVER repaired????) . More casual outfit options, idk i love to dress up my characters, maybe some transmog? A day/night cycle and please i would love to see Thedas’ second moon, also weather variations depending on the region. Yes, i’m ambitious.

Gameplay: i’d like more AI options for companions, but not quite like in DAO, that was too much and i rarely used it. I’m curious how they’ll do combat this time but i know for sure i don’t want the kind of combat that has me going almost frame by frame pausing at every second, it’s annoying for me. I want large areas like in DAI but with a bit more stuff to see and do although one of my favourite maps is the Hissing Wastes so i won’t complain if we get a literal desert but i’d also like it to have secrets hidden around, make me work to find and solve them, i love exploring, i jump and click on EVERYTHING like i’m still a kid playing Monkey Island. A companion in concept art seems to be holding what looks like some form of rifle, so i’m curious how they’d incorporate that in the game. I know Tevinter has the magics and dwarves have the skill, a firearm is totally within the possibilities in-game without breaking any lore; also super curious what sort of skill trees Crows or Lords of Fortune could have, are they rogues, or warriors, or both??

So far, that’s what i got in my head.Well, most of it anyways, i may have missed something but this post has to end somewhere lol

What’s in your head? Feel free to share! Have you been thinking on how you’ll create your next protagonist? All i can think of is magical rogues and that glowing bow was all the hype i needed.

#Dragon Age #Dragon Age 4 #Tevinter #da4 wishlist #DA4

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exhausted-archivist · 11 months ago

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No, you have it right! I do think the old god soul is a misnomer, as in they aren't technically a soul because they were originally spirits. But I think, to work with the fact Wardens die when they're forced to take on the archdemon there is a sort of middle ground. But I'll circle back to that because to explain that I should explain the theory about the origins of elves and answer Cole and Justice. This is going to be really long, so I will put it under a cut, sorry.

To start off with, I think souls can be formed because there is a suggestion in Trespasser through murals, codices, and lines from Cole that suggest elves didn't start off as mortal. By that I mean they didn't even have bodies. The lore suggests that elves were not originally part of Thedas in terms of "reality". Cole says:

"They made bodies from the earth, and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget."

"Bodies from the earth" could mean dirt or the common understanding that it was lyrium. Because why would Titans, also referred to as the pillars of the earth, be afraid if the elves made bodies out of dirt?

So, if the elves were originally spirits, and Solas refers to Mythal and the Evanuris "the oldest of my people don't die so easily", then the original elves include Mythal and they were spirits. But Mythal is now a soul that cannot be forced upon the unwilling (Morrigan). This suggests that souls can be developed after certain milestones. Or at the very least a spirit can develop soul like qualities.

Which brings us to Justice and Cole.

To start off with, I don't think Cole and Justice are the same. One reason is because Justice still needs to possess a body to stay out of the Fade. But, I do think he was on his way to developing a soul prior to merging with Anders. Justice had reached a level in Awakening where he, like Cole, was learning about the moral grey areas of the mortal world. How easily the tenants he represented could lean into the opposite extreme. But by merging with Anders, he interrupted his journey into a mortal. However, I don't think it is Anders fault that Justice couldn't complete that transition, to be clear. Even before the merge, Justice was leaning very heavily into Vengeance. Just like how Cole teetered between the two extremes of compassion. Unlike Cole however, Justice never got to make the full journey of learning the middle ground between those two extremes and therefore didn't get to become the complex and nuanced being that Cole becomes. I also don't think he could.

For two reasons:

Justice wasn't summoned out of the Fade, he didn't choose to leave he was forced out. He didn't have the power, will, or desire to leave the Fade to begin with and thus didn't have the power to make his own shape to operate in the mortal realm. It was later that he chose to stay because he felt that he had to stay and correct the injustices of the world. He was already in the beginning stages of becoming Vengeance even before he was forced out of the Fade in the Black Marsh.

Spirits don't have nuance. Not in the way that is needed for them to reach that middle ground milestone they need at least; if they teeter too far, if they go against their purpose too much they morph into the opposite. Justice become Vengeance. Wisdom become Pride, ect.

If we look at Cole, he manifested his own body, built his own mortal shape to interact with the real world after he was summoned across the veil by the original Cole. He isn't actually possessing a body. The only other being we know who has done this are archdemons and - in theory, the original elves who "made bodies from the earth". Arguably also Imshael but that is more of a detail we can't confirm, we don't really know if he is possessing someone or not. But I wanted to include him for completeness, however, for simplicity we're just going to focus on Cole and archdemons. Trying to keep this as simple as we can lol.

So Cole, stayed in the real world for an undetermined amount of time before Inquisition at 9:41, though we know it was at least 10 years. Through this time he eventually became a demon with the more mercy kills he performed. Because his "mercy" wasn't by the choice of those he killed. We don't have an exact name or term for what he would be called but he and others do refer to him as a demon. However, he does eventually learn that what he was doing wasn't compassion and was wrong. To which he then works his way back to being just a spirit and this is the state we meet him in Inquisition.

When we meet him, he is arguably in a state the Chantry would call a spirit, but because he is outside the Fade and is killing people he also counts as a demon. Cole is in this position of nuance that not only the Chantry doesn't acknowledge, or the canon allow, but technically neither does Cole's nature. Envy doesn't even acknowledge Cole as a spirit or a fellow demon; instead he calls Cole, thing. He's an oddity even to his own kind.

Through Inquisition, while Cole is in this undefined middle ground he still has all his spirit abilities, and he will retain them and return to the Fade... Unless you make him choose to be human. Then, he loses a lot of his spirit abilities; he can no longer make people forget him, he can't pass unnoticed, he can't undo mistakes when he's trying to heal them. I think it is at this point he begins developing a soul or at the very least the point where he cements himself to the constraints similar to that of Mythal, Solas, and other ancient elves. He is now in some degree mortal, he has reached the point of no return. He can't become a spirit again, the Fade is no longer the realm he belongs. So, by the time two years have passed and Trespasser happens in 9:44, he is more human than he was in 9:42. As time goes on, he seems to become even more human, and thus begs the question of what makes a mortal... mortal?

This brings us back to how is he different from the Old Gods? Well, the Old Gods, as far as we know, never reached that middling state or at the very least were never faced with that defining choice.

Keeping with Chantry canon, they were supposedly summoned by humanity, and they chose to take the forms of dragons. Like how Cole was summoned and took the form of a young man. However, as Cole wasn't truly human, Old Gods aren't truly dragons. They speak to the Neromenians who eventually become Tevinter in the Fade, teaching their dreamers blood magic and a myriad of other things. The Old Gods still entirely operate in the Fade and continue to do so up until the Magisters breach the Fade and the Maker supposedly locked them away.

However, we know the Chantry canon is likely wrong in how the Old Gods came to not only be in Thedas but also how they were imprisoned. The Old Gods have likely been imprisoned longer than humans have been since before there were thaigs as they are buried under/around thaigs. They have ancient magic imprisoning them, magic that outlasts long after they've been freed and tainted.

But the Old Gods also aren't completely spirits, as spirits cannot be corrupted from the Blight. After all they have no body to be corrupted. And even if the Old Gods were possessing a high dragon, there is a possibility that body wouldn't be able to become corrupted. Aside from a high dragon's resistance to the taint, Gaider even suggests that it is a possible scenario that Justice cures - or prevents the advancement of - the taint in Anders.

But if they were in a middling state like Cole was, not quite spirit as they had a corporal body, but also not quite mortal as they still had ties to Fade. Then they'd arguably be in a state where they could be a soul but are also arguably not a soul. Thus restricting them to the rules of not being able to be forced upon someone as well as potentially leaving them open to be corrupted. Or the magic that imprisons them does.

So that is sort of one of the thoughts the lore lead me to. However, yeah, the concept of a "soul" or being "real" as a quantifier of personhood is very sticky. But I don't think it is a concept they should shy away from nor is it one that I think they will.

They have been repeatedly asking that, have hallmarks of it everywhere. After all, a reference point for their concept of the point in history Thedas is hanging at is "a strange moment -- like an Enlightenment-era Europe". We see things constantly questioning one's personhood. From how the ancient elves saw dwarves tied to the Titan hive mind as "witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy." How Solas doesn't see modern elves (or races in general) as people when he first wakes up, but he sees spirits as people. Inquisition uses "savage" and "barbarian" in such high frequency as a way to diminish an individual or group's personhood or validity to it. BioWare has provoked the question before in Mass Effect, didn't explore it too deeply but did invoke the queary what makes a person a person. They have Legion, a geth, ask "does this unit have a soul?". Which for Dragon Age, spirits and demons fill a similar role to ai in Mass Effect.

But even more to the point of how sticky the concept of how "developed" you are in morals or identity being a completely subjective is really shaky grounds, especially if you don't approach it lightly like with the geth but also don't invest enough time into such a concept... You get stories like Cole.

Because Cole absolutely provokes that question. In Inquisition, if you make him more human he will refer to himself as a demon to multiple people. But when it comes to Trespasser, when he is with Maryden he will declare the fact that he is human.

Which is part of my issue with Cole's story and personal quest. It doesn't go deep enough, doesn't spend enough time with the question they are asking. And, when you look at it, he isn't truly seen as a person to the companions - save for Solas and Varric - unless you make him more human. Prior to that you have Iron Bull trying to sort out how to use his abilities as a tool and then eventually tries to make him "fit in", Blackwall finds him weird and keeps his distance, Sera and Vivienne hate him and refer to him as demon, Cassandra doesn't trust him and at best becomes neutral to him, Dorian sees him as a curiosity.

Once you make him human Blackwall and others joke about how he'll be a real man once he discovers his interest in women. Sera still finds him creepy and calls him "just a wrong thing" though that animosity seems to lessen slightly come Trespasser.

BioWare has been asking what makes one a person in Thedas for awhile now. And I think it would be more shaky for them not to fully explore it now that they've built not one but four instance of where that question is being asked.

The ancient elves, possibly being spirits originally and making themselves real by crafting bodies from the earth.

Dwarves when they are part of the hive mind, becoming seen as people once they were freed.

Solas referring to spirits as people, but the rest of modern Thedas not seeing them as people.

Cole.

i wonder, is there any source or consensus in the community whether kieran still has his own soul after flemeth takes urthemiel's one? or he only had urthemiel's one?

like, according to the chantry, spirits and demons don't have souls, and despite that say cole or justice obviously are people, so i don't think that having or not having a soul makes that much of a difference, at least as it is like now. and what a soul is anyway? but i was wondering if it was ever addressed and i can't find anything about it rn.

but also there obviously can be multiple souls in one body, first example being flemeth-mythal-urthemiel(-solas??), so i guess it's just the archdemon-to-warden thing destroys both souls and other methods don't. or they're going to also retcon this one as something that the warden believed is the reason, but really it's something else, they just got lucky that it stops the blight.

i can't find any answers, does anyone have any sources about this?

#dragon age meta #long post #cole #justice #archdemons #mythal #solas #I've been mulling this over for ages. About how spirits souls and the like work in Thedas #Absolution brings up some questions as it confirms the construct of a soul does exist #and that demons/spirits placed into someone's cannot replace the soul or replicate the person #Tevinter Nights shows that the best a spirit can do is mirror scraps of memory and aspects of personality #but only as long as it doesn't realize it is a spirit #BioWare has always been toying with the 'what makes a person a person' question #I'm not saying they've done it well. But they've broached it and I am curious how this will all play out #I'm also prepared for BioWare to drop the storyline of personhood of spirits like they dropped the dark matter storyline in mass effect #Anyways thanks for letting me yell about this I hope I explained this is some cohesive way and didn't just sound like I was yelling #also if you saw my mistake like two hours ago. No you didn't.

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sinsbymanka · 4 years ago

Audio

Hello!! It is @rare-egg-hunt month which means we are officially celebrating all our Solas rare pairs!

If you're following this blog you may be somewhat aware I've been "painting" my eggs all through March. Starting next Monday I'm going to be pushing out a multichaptered story built around 12 of the prompts from the Rare Egg Hunt. It's called Cheating the Dread Wolf and will focus on the post-Trespasser love story of Maria Cadash, Solas, and Varric Tethras.

Maria Cadash hung up the Inquisitor's mantle for the Viscountess' crown, but she's unable to stop her desperate and impossible struggle to stop Fen'Harel from destroying the world both her husband and daughter inhabit. The fact Varric, Maria, and Solas are all madly in love with each other just means she may have enough of an edge to win this game.

In other words, everyone is poly and happy but first there's some shit they've gotta go through. I promise there will be angst, fluff, smut, dad Varric, dad Solas, and mama Cadash. Plus an absolutely ADORABLE baby as a treat.

I also have a playlist to go with it! Here's a list of all my songs and why I've picked them as a sneak peek!

Things That Stop You Dreaming by Passenger

If you can't be what you want You learn to be the things you're not If you can't get what you need You learn to need the things that stop you dreaming Oh the things that stop you dreaming

The PINING at the beginning of this story is outrageous. It is honestly a sequel to two fics, the first of which was written by the lovely @blarfkey who inspired, enable, and beta'd this entire project. (seriously. It would never have happened without her and I owe her so much for the idea and the love she's poured into it alongside me).

The two fics can be found in the series Three Liars Mend Broken Hearts on AO3. It shows the way Solas and Maria can't seem to stay away from each other and the ill advised sexy times that happens as a result (yes these are both smut with plot and feelings). So by the time we start Cheating the Dread Wolf they've already acted on their feelings even though they shouldn't and they're all a bit of a mess.

Rest of the playlist below!

Never Really Over by Katy Perry

Two years, and just like that, my head still takes me back Thought it was done, but I guess it's never really over Oh, we were such a mess, but wasn't it the best? Thought it was done, but I guess it's never really over

I revisit the theme of not being able to let go and move on a lot in this story - in both good and bad ways. Varric, in particular, is completely unwilling to give up on Solas no matter what. Solas is unable to let go of his past. Maria can’t let go of her distrust. It’s all a mess.

Power Over Me by Dermot Kennedy

So we hide away and never tell You decide, if darkness knows you well That lesson of love, all that it was I need you to see You got that power over me

This is such a good smut song. I will live and die on this hill. It’s on my smut playlist too. ANYWAY. This is a good song for Maria and Solas. Also. Smut.

That Man by Caro Emerald

Ooh that man is like a flame And ooh that man plays me like a game My only sin is I can't win Ooh I wanna love that man

This is a recommendation from @blarfkey and is the quintessential Varric romance song. I picked this one for a very specific chapter where Varric in effect tricks Solas into a tea party with him and Varric and Maria’s daughter.

Hold My Girl by George Ezra

I've got time, I've got love Got confidence you'll rise above Give me a minute to hold my girl Give me a minute to hold my girl

This is actually for a chapter that mostly focuses on parenthood and how it brings our trio together. It’s very angsty and heartwrenching and I love it so much.

You are the Reason by Calum Scott

I don't wanna hide no more I don't wanna cry no more Come back I need you to hold me (You are the reason) Be a little closer now Just a little closer now Come a little closer I need you to hold me tonight

This is THE OT3 song and the unofficial theme song of this fucking fic. I have listened to it on repeat more than anything else on this playlist.

Me and the Devil by the Fratellis

Tell one last beautiful lie for me Make all your promises rhyme for me Keep me in line but do it honestly Make it real, make it slow, stay alive for me Come on, babe where the line goes dead I'll be fire, I'll be rain, I'll be joy, I'll be dread Come on, baby don't be shy All I want is you and I Out on the street I'll be every face There'll be no man alive That can take my place

This song just gives me Solas related chills. I cannot with it. These two verses in particular scream Varric, Solas, and Maria. This is also on the playlist at approximately the part of the story where shit starts going down. Also another @blarfkey recommendation.

Move by Saint Motel

This girl, this beautiful girl, with eyes the size of the o-o-ocean. This man, this dutiful man, he's got these mixed up emo-o-o-tions. I want it, can't have it. Oh I can hardly stand it. Oh what's a man to do... Gotta get up, I gotta get up. Move!

A recent addition to this playlist thanks to @paisleybees who sent this to me as I was writing a chapter that fit it PERFECTLY. I actually picture it as a Varric/Solas song for this work.

Monster by Paramore

I'll stop the whole world, I'll stop the whole world From turning into a monster and eating us alive Don't you ever wonder how we survive? Well now that you’re gone, the world is ours

Another “shit is getting real” song and another @blarfkey recommendation. This is a McFighterson Cadash song for sure. It’s also what I picture for the sole action sequence in this fic.

Poison and Wine by The Civil Wars

You only know what I want you to I know everything you don't want me to Oh your mouth is poison, your mouth is wine You think your dreams are the same as mine Oh I don't love you but I always will

Enemies and Lovers. Enemies and lovers. Need I say more?! This is SUCH a good song for that trope!

Silence by Marshmello (featuring Khalid)

I found peace in your violence Can't tell me there's no point in trying I'm at one, and I've been quiet for too long I found peace in your violence Can't tell me there's no point in trying I'm at one, and I've been silent for too long

Circling back around to themes of letting go and holding on. This kind of starts the happy ending bit of this work (YES I SWEAR THERE’S A HAPPY ENDING).

This Year’s Love by David Gray

This year's love had better last 'Cause who's to worry if our hearts get torn When that hurt gets thrown Don't ya know this life goes on? Won't ya kiss me on that midnight street? Sweep me off my feet Singing, "ain't this life so sweet?"

HAPPY ENDING. A bittersweet but ultimately hopeful one <3

Glitter and Gold by Barns Courtney

Do you walk in the valley of kings? Do you walk in the shadow of men Who sold their lives to a dream? Do you ponder the manner of things In the dark? The dark, the dark, the dark I am flesh and I am bone Arise, ting ting, like glitter and gold I've got fire in my soul Rise up, ting ting, like glitter

This is for the epilogue. It’s called the Dread Wolf Cub Rises and I refuse to give any other details.

BONUS

Problem by Natalia Kills

I'm your dream girl This is real love But you know what they say about me... That girl is a problem Girl is a problem Girl is a problem problem

Bea Cadash shows up a lot in this fic with her background sweet angel boyfriend Cole. There’s been a couple times where I need to write Bea and this is just the perfect song to capture her goddamn attitude.

Anyway! Happy egg hunting!

#Spotify #manka writes #manka does playlists #cheating the dread wolf #RareEggHunt2021 #solas #female cadash #varric tethras #female cadash/solas/varric tethras #maria cadash #song recs

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modernagesomniari · 4 years ago

Text

To be or not to be - on the matter of Cole for a hot sec

I’m always on the fence about Cole’s personal quest - I can see both sides of the argument, but I still find it very hard to choose.

However, having done it recently again - it does strike me: the only person in the whole quest who specifically references Cole becoming more ‘human’ is Solas. Varric never says ‘human’, Varric only ever says ‘person’.

And that matters to me because it suggests that this might be another instance of Solas’ assumption and pessimism clouding his usually incredible faculties for out-of-the-box thinking. He sees what humans have become and he fears Cole becoming that. Specifically human. Varric, on the other hand, knows damn well Cole will never be human.

Human to Varric is templars and mages, Chantry rhetoric and nobles and scoundrels. Cole is never going to be that. But as far as Varric’s concerned, he’s already a ‘person’ and just calling him a ‘spirit’ isn’t going to cut it anymore. It isn’t fair to him.

Varric, along with Sera, sees race the least, I think. Folk are just folk. And Cole is just folk, too, that’s the whole point of why Varric does what he does if you choose him.

Varric knows people. And people are just people, whether they’re ex-Fade denizens or not. In that way I think he’s better equipped to think out of the box here, because Solas is very much taken up with classifications when it comes to the Fade.

In that way (and I can’t quite believe I’m saying this) Varric is actually the one who treats Cole most like a person in this quest, not Solas. Solas is too blinded by his own grief, his own experiences, to see past his own intellectual biases. Anyone who knows anything about Solas can see the (rather heart-breaking) parallel in his line ‘We cannot change our nature by wishing.’ Is it such a leap to wonder if Solas can’t see a future for Cole that is more than just spirit because of his own experiences and sadness? It certainly wouldn’t be the only time he does this in-game (one could argue that the entire plot of DA4 is going to rely on this tbh). For whatever reason, he fundamentally does not believe that such changes are possible.

Let’s also not forget that Cole is probably one of the closest things Solas has to a friend in Inquisition and, knowing his history, it’s quite easy to see why. To risk losing that, to see a spirit-friend become just another Tranquil-like being he has to grit his teeth just to look at must be a really scary thought for him. He is just a man, after all - even if his mind could see a way forward for Cole, his heart might not want to accept that for the risk of losing him.

I will always be on the fence about this quest - I’m rereading this before posting it and could already come up with some strong points counter to the ones I’ve made here - but that’s kind of why I love this quest and this game. Especially because, particularly for this quest and area of lore - we’re basically doing this blind with all the things we don’t know. Trespasser blew the world apart lore-wise, so who the hell knows!?

#dragon age #dragon age inquisition #solas #cole #varric #somni #rambles #my essay-brain is having caniptions about how unfocussed this is #but these are my thoughts #in a splurge #please have them

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felassan · 4 years ago

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Endless DA4 BtS vid thoughts

The speed lines around the rogue in “Action Shot” remind me of like, passive rogue skills/abilities that increase movement speed or evasion chance. Or maybe a mage has cast Haste?

The elf guy’s staff is quite simple and not really being wielded in a mage-archtypal way. The thing I’m reminded of here is how Irian Cestes, a rogue-like elf from Tevinter Nights, is an expert staff-fighter. She also taught Vadis, a mage, some staff-fighting tactics.

About the airship shot: doesn’t the giant statue head bear a bit of resemblance to this one, which is located in the crypt of a wealthy Nevarran? I’m also reminded of the Dead Hand, a big stone hand which is a landmark in the Exalted Plains in the Dales. According to the lore, it is “something of a mystery”. It’s assumed that “it is a piece broken off from a larger whole”, a much larger sculpture. But where was the rest of the statue? “It is difficult to imagine how something so large could go missing.” The Wiki presents 2 theories about how the hand got there (see Trivia section). The second one is especially notable given the elfy-ness of and floating objects in this piece of concept art and the fact that we know floating objects from the time of Arlathan fell when Solas raised the Veil and disrupted the magic (ambient dialogue in Trespasser etc).

While we’re on the subject of that shot - floating, floating.. Some objects like chandeliers and buildings float in Tevinter. Levitation magic is part of established lore. It’s also a hallmark of the Fade, ancient Arlathan, the Crossroads. But also! In Descent, Renn tells a story of a soldier of his that once got lost in the Deep Roads for three days after falling down a hole. After they found her, she spent a whole day telling them of the strange things she had seen: “A golden longboat floating in the air... packs of hairless children hunting nugs... a giant skeleton on a throne”. They never found out if it was true, and she had forgotten it all when she woke up the next day. Floating longboats?

On reflection, if Warden Davrin is a companion, I think I’d like him to be a rogue rather than a warrior. In main games, we’ve had warrior Warden companions (Alistair and essentially Blackwall) and a mage Warden companion (Anders). Rogue pls to complete the set. (Awakening expansion notwithstanding). If he’s a rogue, could he be the third from the left figure in the lineup?

According to Google, “Bellara” is an Australian town/place name, a word of Aboriginal origin. The meaning is apparently “good”, or “magnificent / majestic” (India), but I can’t say how reliable that information is. I can’t really find anything for Davrin (not that there necessarily would have to be anything obviously).

If Skellington is Audric: Audric as an entity is a “higher dead”, seemingly a spirit that needed to find balance between its two aspects, Curiosity and Anger, or else he’s “caught between two spirits: anger and curiosity” (compare our previous experiences with Justice/Vengeance, and Wisdom/Pride in All New, Faded For Her). When I was thinking about him though I got hit by the nostalgic memory of speculating about Cole, pre-release but after he’d been confirmed as a companion. His personal quest ended up being a more Spirit vs more Human choice, but I remember speculating if his arc would involve turning more to Compassion or to Despair depending on, for example, the PC’s actions (good choices vs evil choices). Rage might not be the same as Anger, but: in DA lore, Rage demons are noted to be simpler and less devious than other types of demons. At first thinking about the idea I was like ‘hmm’ because that doesn’t sound like a very exciting concept, but then I remembered Scout Grandin in JoH, Harding’s friend who went missing. He, a mage lacking in talent for magic, willingly allowed himself to be possessed by a Rage demon after Hakkonites killed his good friend and attacked his patrol. When you meet him he expresses a wish to fight for the Inquisition, stop their enemies killing more people, and protect the Inquisition’s people. Solas asks him “And what then? Will you stop or will the rage take you?” You can allow him to serve the Inquisition’s cause rather than killing him, and he swears to it. This Rage entity was more complex than the usual ones we encounter, and at the time I found him pretty interesting. I don’t really know what my point is here, especially since Audricuriosity is a very good bean, but there’s an example of how that side of it could work on the PC’s side, and also, yeah, I’ve been punted back into the days when I wondered if Cole’s arc or ‘choice’ in-game would be Compassion vs Despair, and am thinking about Curiosity vs Anger as the dual aspects in maybe-Audric, and what that could be like to explore in a character arc.

And I might have said this somewhere already, but the Grand Necropolis would make a fantastic candidate for a critpath story-heavy mission setting like our explorations through the Temple of Mythal in DAI. I’d be here for them utilizing it in such a way and us discovering tasty lore and !!! revelations and stuff on the way.

#dragon age 4 #the dread wolf rises #dragon age #bioware #dragon age: tevinter nights #tevinter nights spoilers #tevinter nights spoiler #spoilers #spoiler #video games #we're all lying awake at night constantly thinking about that vid aren't we #rn: me chipping away at the endless task of trying to clear out my Drafts...#solas #cole #spirit boy

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