#was bc he was being reckless after jason died

[oifaaa]

So a genuine question. I'm somewhat new to DC comics (was on the edge looking into the fandom for most of my life but only recently started reading the comics) and I thought the "Tim stalked Batman and Robin with a camera" was a canon thing? I can't remember the first time I saw it, but I feel like it was mid 2010s, so earlier then what I thought was the start of the Tim Angst Era of fanfic. Like I know I've seen fanart of it from people who said they don't really read fanfiction, so I assumed it was a canon thing. Do you have any idea what might have started it? In my experience fanon stuff starts with a grain of truth somewhere, even if by the end it's lost that grain.

Yes I do it actually did start in canon basically Tim does take pictures of Batman but its after jason dies since it's bc batman is killing himself and he needs evidence to prove to Dick that Bruce is killing himself so that dick will want to become robin again (it doesn't work but he tried) and he does stalk dick and the titans a bit since after the titans come back from space dick decides to leave them for a wee while so tim has to stalk them to figure out where dick is

[yesiknowimshort]

looking at the fanon from canon with tim drake

(to the best of my own knowledge; take with a grain of salt; i’m open to discussion and disagreement; we can take this like an english lit class analysis)

this is inspired by discussions with @boredandboredmind about misconstrued info with jason and tim on their own posts about it.

also do not take this as hate to tim fic writers, you’re amazing and you best believe i’m checking the tim x reader tag constantly. i just want to be able to help give you easy access to half-canon-compliant info, and you can choose to take it or leave it.

and especially if you only know tim through online media (which is always valid and i’ll hear no argument!), it can be hard to differentiate between what it is “out of character, completely fanon” behaviour, and what is actually plausible.

RELATIONSHIPS

with his dad

tim’s relationship with his dad is extremely complicated. they both loved each other… but both of his parents had a very different way of showing their love to what tim needed.

for the majority of his life, his mother and father were super neglectful of him and his interests, which of course is how we had nine year old tim drake running around figuring out people’s identities and tryna convince nightwing to go back to batman bc tim said batman wouldn’t cope without a robin, as if he knew them personally.

bruce generally disapproved of tim being left alone while his parents were on business trips, so he looked out for tim a lot during those times.

after the death of tim’s mother, his father was all moody for a bit bc his company had gone to shit… oh and his wife died. anyway he was acting like mr crabs when he loses his money for a while until his physiotherapist dana winters was like “yo get a hold of your life man”. so jack attempted to reconnect with his son… but tim was already deep in the mantle of robin and hanging out with bruce wayne.

tim was a little reluctant at first but after a while he did really appreciate his dad trying to be a dad for once… but it conflicted with the life he had already made for himself.

tim was sneaking out to do hero work, skipping school, coming home in the early hours beat and bruised, being snarky and angsty to his dad, super secretive; basically coming off as a reckless hooligan teenager (even tho he really wasn’t) which made jack incredibly angry at tim a lot of the time, causing them to have a lot of fights.

jack was also super insecure as his position as tim’s dad as he felt inferior to the relationship tim had built with bruce.

so one day while tim was out, jack raided tim’s bedroom (10/10 parenting skills there, well done jack) which dana winters was horrified by and actually sided with tim when tim came home and blew up at his dad -anyway jack found out tim was robin.

he stormed to bruce and was like “fuck you and fuck my son’s role as robin. he’s going to boarding school”.

long story short, tim resumes the mantle of robin and his dad deals with it and they begin to really get along again, like a true father and son… and then his dad is murdered. tim finds him and is distraught, and that’s when we get this classic image of tim and bruce:

(it’s horrible obviously but i love this illustration so much. the way tim’s half in and out of the robin gear, the single eye you can see, the way he’s half collapsed over his father’s body and clinging to bruce for dear life) anyway then tim goes into the care of bruce wayne.

with bruce

lemme start of by saying: tim would only ever use the wayne name for business means as future ceo/controlling shareholder of W.E.

tim will always be a drake.

he quite literally made up a fake uncle so he wouldn’t get adopted by bruce, even though bruce really wanted to adopt him. not only that- he went as far as to forge a new will including this fictional uncle to avoid being bruce’s son

he struggled a lot with bruce’s “affection” after his father’s death since he never saw bruce as a father beforehand, only ever as a mentor. and of course, up until later in his robin career, he wasn’t even an orphan. he still technically wasn’t since dana winters ended up marrying his dad and becoming his step-mum, but she’s basically forgotten sadly.

he also consistently makes a point to make sure people know he made himself robin, and it wasn’t batman’s choice at all.

he appreciates bruce of course, but it’s more on an intellectual and emotional level than anything else. tim came from money (albeit, new money), and even though his parents' company basically died with his father there would’ve been some amount of inheritance money. not to mention without a shadow of a doubt, he would’ve had an account his parents had been saving for him.

living in another manor house and working around international companies and important people, wouldn’t be too different from what his life would’ve become had his parents not died.

tim would appreciate bruce not for the life he gave him, but simply because of bruce being intellectually stimulating for him. remember; tim sees the life he has as the life he made.

he reminds me of damian in the fact that both of them would struggle with dealing with people who bored them, people who couldn’t offer them anything.

anyway bruce = respected equal, bruce ≠ tim’s new dad.

 with jason and damian

boom. all you need to know.

nah but seriously...

jason attacked tim in the tt tower when he came back to life but can you really blame him? he was replaced, and it made sense for him to come after tim since as we know, tim forced himself into the role and did, technically, steal jason’s spot before bruce realistically would’ve replaced him.

but they never held that grudge throughout jason’s reintegration into the family. of course they’d have sibling fights (note that tim doesn’t think of any of his adoptive brothers as real brothers; but jason is closest to), but a little roughhousing is normal. i’m the eldest of 6 brothers and believe me, we fight all the time. literally yesterday one of them and i bit each other while fighting (if you don’t think damian and tim would do that, you’re kidding yourself). but we love each other, and if anything happened we’d jump to each other's defence.

moving onto damian...

the way tim views damian is very telling of tim’s worldview and childhood. when damian arrived, tim demanded that regardless of being batman’s son or not, damian must work to earn the love and respect of bruce, “like everybody else” he had said. clear projection from tim here, since up until dami, tim was the only one who wasn’t “wanted” per se, and also tim’s had to work for people’s affection and attention his entire life. look at his parents; they were the half-arsed “that’s great honey” and then back to their phone call type of people (well we know where tim gets his steadfast work ethic from).

anyway, tim finally had the spotlight on him for a while only to have it turned for some little genetic abnormality.

tim’s suffering from the “been the only/youngest child for too long” phenomenon; they do not believe there is room enough in one's heart for more unconditional love. it’s quite sad if you think about it; he was in his mid-late teens by this point.

tim was quite patronising of damian when they were introduced, but he quickly pulled the “i’m just messing with you” card and did try to fix it, but stubborn-as-tim damian just started to preach his favourite “i’ll inherit everything without even trying” play. this obviously pissed off tim to no end. it seemed damian knew the perfect way to get under his skin, and it was putting tim even more on edge. it made him feel insecure in his place with bruce. for the first time tim didn’t think he was gonna be able to get his way easily.

eventually though, batman assures tim that damian being his biological son doesn’t change anything that he has with tim, and that tim doesn’t have to prove anything to him.

yes, if you look up tim and damian, you can see that damian has done some horrible things to tim and the two have very thin patience for each other, but that’s simply because they both understand the perfect ways to piss each other off. it’s just so easy for the both of them that they can’t help themselves.

i also will say that damian views the relationship as much more “mortal enemies” than tim does, but he is a child several years younger than tim, so it’s natural for him to view it as a bigger deal than tim.

all in all, jason and tim, and tim and damian are simply just brothers, and if you have more than two siblings, i’m sure you know as much as we deny it, everyone had a favourite and a least favourite sibling -it’s natural. for tim, his favourite is jason, and his least just happens to be damian.

just like damian’s favourite is dick, and least favourite happens to also be tim.

with stephanie

(now i don’t know as much about steph as i do for tim so feel free to correct me)

stephanie brown got into the hero scene by being the best little shit i’ve ever heard of and messing up her villain dad’s plans. her dad was cluemaster, a friend of the riddler, and she would literally just show up and spoil their plans in annoying ways (hence her name; spoiler).

she was tim drake’s girlfriend -it’s important to note that she wasn’t robin’s. she had no clue about his double life and broke up with him because she thought he was being unfaithful (fair enough).

when tim’s dad took robin away from him, steph stepped up to the plate with a made up robin costume and (like tim) demanded to be the replacement.

her 71 days in the spotlight as the first female robin ended in a couple different ways (thanks comics for making it hard). bruce dismissed her for his belief that she couldn’t follow orders, but he also didn’t believe that she could live up to tim... ouch. he didn’t even approve of her as his partner until she was killed. oh god here we go again...

i personally don’t acknowledge that she died. just- nope. i always look at it as wrong place, wrong time for steph. she could’ve been a great robin, but tim left massive fucking shoes to fill, and i reckon bruce was looking for any little reason to fire her -disobeying one order to not involve herself in a fight just happened to be the perfect opportunity (according to bruce). not to mention steph (and this isn’t necessarily a wrong thing) was undisciplined in hero-ing.

not to say tim was straight-laced and serious, more that him being at an equal mental level to bruce, and the both of them having built strong trust in each other, gave him a lot more leeway to do what he wanted and have the means to back up his actions.

ORIGINS OF POPULAR FANON

obviously i’ll never know exactly where something came from. this is more my speculation and attempt and supplying the headcanons with canonical evidence or debunking them.

where does “tim is a sickly boi” come from?

his lack of a spleen.

i’m not sure if most people now know that’s the reason why, but that’s gotta be how it started.

without a spleen, our body's other organs like the liver can take over many of the spleen's functions. you'll still be able to cope with most infections but there's a heightened risk that a serious infection will develop quickly, especially from certain bacteria and parasites like malaria.

if he got on antibiotics and rested when he started to feel ill, he’d be fine, but tim would never remember to take antibiotics and gods forbid he let himself rest so... he’s working until his body forces him to take a break.

mimi approved fanon  👍

where does “tim doesn’t care for himself” come from?

he’s a stubborn person. people don’t emphasise this enough. usually, people just use the motivation of depression (which, fair, it could be included in it). however, he will literally do whatever the fuck he wants because he’s tim fucking drake and that's all the excuse he feels he needs. like he is prepared to sacrifice everything *cough cough* himself to see his plan go through.

he’s also stubborn in his need to prove himself as we know. as a self-appointed robin; his mantle had felt fragile to him. not to mention damian made his grand appearance to push tim into that sweet sweet middle child category.

and as we already know, his dad also forcefully took the mantle from him and stopped him from seeing bruce. every time things start to go well for tim... it all seems to go to shit.

this in turn led to the fanon of ‘chronic perfectionism to the point of halting self-care in order to complete x, y z to prove himself’.

he also canonically doesn’t care much for sleep; in teen titans when superboy finds him awake tim just goes “it’s only three, i’m checking my emails”.

mimi approved fanon 👍.

where does “tim’s a coffee addict” come from?

he actually is only ever depicted drinking/buying coffee like 3 times (i don’t know for sure, please correct me if it’s more/less).

it ties in well with the previous point; tim’s coffee addiction is a way to justify how he can still function when he’s on 5 minutes of sleep, battered and bruised and still able to kick arse and be intelligent.

mimi approved fanon 👍

where does “tim have abandonment issues” come from?

his mum dies and he loses how his dad used to be.

he gains a better version of his dad and then his dad acts like an arsehole.

his dad gets better again and then his dad dies.

he had steph and then she left him because he just couldn’t explain who he was.

he gets bruce and then damian shows up.

he gets bruce back and then bruce dies, and nobody believes him when he says he’s alive.

yeah... it makes sense.

would be mimi-approved fanon, but i’ve never like the way i’ve seen it portrayed in fanon.

i see a lot in fics he does the “i’m pushing you away first to protect us both” and i just don’t personally agree with the depiction. call me petty but that’s my thoughts.

where does the perception that tim’s the soft one come from?

no fucking clue honestly.

mans blinded deathstroke’s (/jericho, hard to explain) good eye on purpose while delivering a one liner about fighting blind, and then told the man he just fully blinded that he agreed with deathstroke that he (tim) could be vicious when he had to be.

that one-on-one moment in the teen titans comic is demonstration enough of tim being the opposite of the soft one. none of the robins are soft. if we’re going off who’s the most “sensitive”, then it’d be dick or damian -those two have the shortest fuse.

tim blinded someone by throwing his fucking birdarang at the guy’s one good eye and was sure enough and committed enough to what he planned to do that he had the precision to make sure not to take the eye out completely -only debilitate him. that’s some calculated callousness right there.

he also boasted to the teen titans about lying to batman, after he just lied to starfire about staying put in a fight (and his lie used that ‘goody two shoes’ perception of himself; he’s self-aware of how he can come off)… and then he broke his friends out of the tt tower by cutting glass in the shape of a bat. dudes cocky as.

not to mention he literally stalked batman and ran around solving murders and dropping off the evidence to gordon before even being a robin. he was on the CIA’s watch list for crying out loud.

tim is extremely underestimated. to the point where (as @forcesofnatureunleashed accurately described) this “uwu” version of tim has taken over the fandom and made him out to seem like a mega wimp and a quiet tortured soul.

i’m not dismissing the shit he’s actually gone through, i’m just saying he’s gone through enough that you don’t need to make up that he was berated by his dad, can’t talk about his pain, and relies on his tech, when he’s quiet literally the best martial artist in the family and highly respected by ra’s al ghul.

you don’t just get respected by ra’s al ghul; especially if you were an overly sensitive, shaky-knee-ed, spineless, weakling.

STRONGLY mimi disapproved fanon 👎

[mamawasatesttube]

I am lost in the sauce of thinking about how Bruce would react to Robin!Kon. Does he obsess over the fact that an alternate version of him lost and replaced Tim? Does he feel guilty for not taking Kon in in this version of reality? Is he paranoid about and/or intrigued by the potential of a Superboy with full Robin training?

(Knowing Bruce, it’s probably option D: all of the above, but expressed in the worst way.)

he would stand on the roof and brood. so much.

GOD okay no but delving into the bruce and kon dynamic is so... HNG. it's thorny because bruce has been written as warm and kind to kon AND an anti-meta racist asshole to kon. because of who i am as a person i tend to ignore and throw out the latter bc i want to like bruce and its really impossible to make him consistent as a character without picking and choosing stuff to throw out, but... whoof.

but with that established it's so... augh. the idea of having lost tim (who only ever became robin because he lost jason first - that's two robins, two kids, dead, one after another) absolutely would haunt him. the idea of superboy (an alternate universe superboy, no less, one he knows very little about) knowing all the bat secrets and tips and tricks... well, it's not as bad as it could be, since he does trust clark's judgment and clark trusts superboy and all, but. it's not his favorite thing.

honestly, i think main universe bruce would be so fucking awkward with robin kon, more than anything. he wouldn't know how to handle the horror of his existence + this version of kon who knows him so much better than he knows kon.

what i think is really fun, though, is robin kon's relationship with his own bruce.

tim dies. bruce spirals hard. he's in a dark pit. this is jason all over again - worse, in a way, because he never fully got over jason and now it's happening again and all the old wounds are reopening but now there's new ones on top. he is in a deep, dark pit.

and then superboy joins him there.

this is a young kon. he's still sixteen. he's never experienced loss before. his first brush with grief is his best friend being ripped away from him, and he's barely even a year old. it consumes him.

so he gravitates to the other person being wholly consumed by grief. and here's bruce, broken and grieving hard and furious with the world and himself, faced with another child who loved the child he just lost so much he can't let go. what can he do? can he bring himself to turn aside a boy who loved his boy? tim's best friend? can he really?

of course he can't.

they don't make each other better so much as they just... keep each other on a leash. bruce can't let himself go too far, get too reckless or suicidal or masochistic in punishing himself, because if he has a near-scare there's a boy waiting for him back home to cry and scream and rip into him that he can't do that, he can't, i've already lost tim you can't make me lose you too you can't do that to me you can't.

he trains kon to act as a robin. to wait, to listen, to learn. to hide his strength and his flight, to keep secrets bigger than himself. he trains kon and puts him behind robin's mask - another child in that costume, wearing new colors this time - and hopes he's not making a mistake.

but hey. at least this kid is more... crowbar/explosion/bullet-proof?

[protect-namine]

I do want to see what robin!lonnie would have been like but also. I kinda like him just the way he is as anarky. also idk yet how well dc (or someone not alan grant?) would have written him anyway. though I imagine he could easily still fill the role of "robin with a separate (living) family from the waynes" that tim and steph did. I can also imagine, as with the above panel here, that there would have been a lot of jason comparisons. which, interesting, bc tim being robin made dc reframe jason as reckless, but lonnie as anarky was already framed like that too soooo

and I mean sure there's definitely the extratextual stuff where tim as a character served the purpose of making robin matter and also by Not Being Jason. either way, whoever robin iii would have been would always be compared to if not even defined by jason by virtue of being "the robin who came after the robin who died" and answering the question of "why would bruce ever take in another child sidekick after the whole death in the family fiasco? why should robin be a thing?" so I just. I wonder how lonnie as robin would have answered that. how would he reframe jason's death and the robin mantle, you know?

that aside. what did alan grant even plan 'cause like. lonnie's dad knew about anarky. if he was going to be robin, was he just gonna tell his dad he quit being anarky (a lie) and then hide how he's robin (but also still anarky on the side, like, let's be real, he's not giving that up. or maybe dc would have made him give that up for robin, which. possible, but I don't like it personally lol. or maybe he can at least still be moneyspider on the side).

I believe (too lazy to check right now, take with a grain of salt) alan grant wrote the storyline where janet died and also the other one where tim was like. hallucinating dick and jason lmao. so what if like. that was actually gonna happen to lonnie. not the same story exactly, but maybe something similar? if grant had his way. I really have no idea, I'm just guessing. maybe he did change stuff around for tim. idk how comics are written, sorry.

but also. steering this into a different direction now. it would be interesting to explore the idea of tim drake existing alongside robin!lonnie. like. this nightwing/robin fan who figures out batman is on his third robin already but bruce wayne did not have any new adoptees. which, hm. mysterious! tim likes having a project, I think he'd investigate that. maybe lonnie targets drake industries too, I mean there was that thing where the acting ceo while jack was away was embezzling funds.

otoh, in an impossible scenario, imagine having two robins. which is apparently what's happening right now with tim and damian (I have no idea why) so like. lonnie and tim? they can do a whole idealist and pragmatist approach. they bicker and maybe goad each other into debates (well lonnie does at least) but they make a good team. and batman is having a headache trying to wrangle two robins at the same time.

anyway. this turned out longer than I thought but yeah. just wondering what lonnie!robin would be like

[secretnimh]

Misconception that DC has tried to retroactively make the new canon to varying degrees

"Jason died because he was reckless and angry and wanted to prove himself - thus ignoring batman's order's to stay put and getting killed by the joker because his experience was inadequate to take him on"

What actually happened, largely abridged

"Jason was trying to prove himself to Batman" bull, actually - after Jason overheard Bruce and Alfred saying he should be benched from robin, he ran out of the house to clear his head, and returned to his old apartment. there, he unexpectedly came across the info that his mom wasn't actually his birth mom, and decided to go find her (bc Bruce is terrible with expressing his emotions, and inadvertently made both dick AND Jason feel like their place in his life/at the manor was dependent on being robin, so being fired feels a hell of a lot like being unwanted/kicked out - like. we know this. it happened with dick. It's gonna happen similarly but differently with Tim. it's a theme)

finding her just also happened to mean checking out various potential moms, not all of which were local, or even in the country...  so, sure, angry, but also really upset and all those other complicated emotions that come along with "I think my dad doesn't want me around anymore" and "oh wow i have a living parent out there in the world"

Bruce didn't even notice he ran away btw?? to another COUNTRY???? Bruce was tracking down Joker for a case and legit just HAPPENED to come across him bc his search for Joker coincided with Jason's search for his mother???? sir????????????? Jason is 15???? and also canonically so, so small. 4'6" i mean come on, not only is he objectively young but he definitely *looks* young, too

anyway they team up. it's kinda cute - also would have been low-key fun if Shiva *was* his mom I won't lie, but like, Cass exists and is so wonderful, that funky lil opportunity for additional bat and shiva drama was banked on

then they find Jason's mom and Bruce... leaves him with her???? Like, okay, sure, she's biologically related to him, and seems like a nice enough person bc she does work w a humanitarian organization, but sir. That is your small child you're leaving alone with a stranger in an unfamiliar place in an unfamiliar COUNTRY can we re-think this decision.

shenanigans happen and they both team up again for the joker thing, which ends w Bruce running off to save civilians from a truck full of bombs or something, and Jason keeping an eye on the warehouse joker and his mom are in. B tells Jason to stay put, and Jason is annoyed but agrees. he has literally every intention of staying out of Joker's way while Batman is away!!

of course, baby 15 year old jason (and b!!) think jay's mom is being *forced* to work with joker. What's a baby to do when his mom comes out and says he needs to leave well enough alone?? a baby will tell her he's robin and can help, that's what!! That she doesn't need to worry and he's more capable of protecting her than she thinks! and what's a shitty mother who cares more about her reputation and money than a child's life to do?? Tell him joker isn't at the warehouse anymore, obviously, it's all totally fine and Jason should definitely come inside while she grabs some things - oh but yes please walk ahead of her, of course. And *then* she pulls a gun on on him, right before they meet the very clown she swore had left.

He's not expecting the joker! He definitely wasn't expecting his mother to lie to him!! Reckless, rash, and angry my ass. If anything killed Jason, it was that he put too much love and trust and the earnest will to see good in people.

And it's really fucking sad that, after all that trauma - his death and resurrection both - after feeling betrayed and forgotten by his family, feeling his life wasn't *worth* a damn in the end, that he ultimately lost that ability to see the good before the bad and just trust that there are better people in the world - from too much empathy to not nearly enough

[redrobin-detective]

Robin, hon, can you explain to me why there is bad blood between Bruce and Jason?

I could go on and on and on but in the name of both our sanities I will summarize.

Bruce found orphaned street kid Jason stealing tires from the Batmobile, adopted him and made him Robin (which pissed off original Robin, Dick, bc it wasn't Bruce's mantle to give away but I digress). Things are good for a while. But Jason had a lot of unresolved anger and depression from year living on the streets, he became reckless in the field and was overly aggressive with criminals (esp those who abused women or children like same boy). Bruce, angry and worried, pulled him from heroing to get him help. Only Jason didn't listen and when he heard his birth mother was in trouble, he ran across the world to go help her only to be caught by the Joker. He is beaten half to death by the clown and left to die in an exploding building. Robin II and Bruce's son is dead.

It's a tragedy, Bruce mourned Jason so hard almost falling apart as Batman and Wayne. Tim Drake, avid Batman fanboy who uncovered their IDs through investigatory work, tries to bring Batman and Nightwing back together to help stabilize Batman. Once the dust settles, Tim is chosen to be the new Robin, Dick and Bruce have started to reconcile and real healing is beginning to happen. All is well right?

Wrong! Turns out Jason has been brought back to life (pick your version, Superboy Prime punching reality from the inbetween space he's trapped in or Ra's al Ghul stealing the body and Lazarus Pitting him). Jason comes back mundo scrambled and it takes him awhile to get his bearings under him. All he knows is when he looks around, Batman has replaced him with another Robin and appears happy as can be. Underlying anger issues + genuine hurt feelings + post resurrection mind fuck means Jason is Pissed. He dedicates himself to learning the deadly arts Batman never taught him.

He returns in the Under the Red Hood comic (chef's kiss) as the criminal vigilante, Red Hood, who uses terror and murder to become Gotham's premiere crime lord. He lets Bruce and everyone know who he is, as dramatically as possible, with heart breaking results.

This ended up being a very long explanation to say: Jason had some tension with B before he died, blamed Batman for letting him die and then quickly replaced him not long after. He believed B didn't love him and saw his Robins as expendable pawns used to uphold his moral high ground version of justice that didn't fix Gotham. It's why Jay went on his murder spree to "do what Batman couldn't and save Gotham". He's especially mad Bruce didn't kill Joker, the man who murdered him.

Ofc Jay doesn't know everything, doesn't know how deeply and painfully Bruce mourned Jason, even years later. Didn't know that he did his best to prevent another Robin from happening and Tim basically forced his hand. Couldn't understand how close B came to killing Joker, not just for Jason but for paralyzing Barbara and torturing Jim Gordon. Jay brings up good points but in his post-Lazarus Pit single minded focus rage, all he could see was that his father didn't avenge him and took it personally.

From Bruce's end, his spunky, smart, big hearted child died and what came back was wrong. Red Hood Jason was hard and cruel and spat on Batman's number one rule to not kill. Bruce's greatest grief is shoved back in his face and B, who has never handled negative emotions well, doesn't do much to explain himself to Jason. In the end, he puts Gotham first by trying to stop Jason's murder spree not knowing he's reinforcing Jason's ideas on not being loved. Jason also attacks Tim which Bruce takes very personally bc he will NOT lose another Robin. Not even to his own child.

Once Jason calms down a bit and has some conversations with B, they come to an uneasy impasse where he's a part of the fam always but he's not quite ready to let go of the past and be a Bat or Bruce's son again.

[scandalsavagefanfic]

Hello! I am a huge fan of ur writing. I've loved everything I've read of yours. I've read alot of what you've posted, except for a couple of the tags that are squicky for me (so I'm very thankful you tag very thoroughly). No judgement for the squick, it's just not for me. & when I'm having a bad day, I usually just go thru ur ao3 and find something to reread. I think about Therapy's Bruce & Jason every damn day. While I obvs appreciate ur darker more "problematic" content (I really vibe with some of the themes you write about bc of my own trauma, & so it's very cathartic to read about in a fictional setting), I am truly a sucker for ur more happy content. The Happily Ever After verse also lives in my head rent free. Idk more wholesome stuff just seems more special when you write it. Anyways. I would die for you. But the point of this ask is cause I'm curious as to why you don't like Urban Legends? I'm sorry if you already talked about it here or on twitter and I missed it. I was just wondering because I really enjoy your take on things and would love to hear why you dislike it. I've been enjoying it so far personally, but I am always open to DC comics criticism.

Aw thank you so much! I'm so flattered by everything you just said. You're so sweet ❤❤❤❤❤

I haven't talked about Urban Legends here or twitter (I haven't been very active in either place lately. Just a lot going on and no energy 😔) but I'm happy to do it here.

Before I start though, I just want to add a standard disclaimer and make it clear that if you like it, there's nothing wrong with that and you don't have to let me ruin it for you lol. Like what you like.

That said, since you asked...

I said this when I was talking about it on discord, that there is a difference between hope and expectation. I always hope that a new story centered on Jason (or anyone really, but things have been especially egregious for Jay for 15 years) will be good or at least treat the character with a minimal level of respect (to be honest, the bar is super fucking low). But my expectations always temper my hope, to keep it from getting unrealistic. Because my expectations are based on experience.

The long history of Jason Todd, since even before his resurrection, has been one of retroactively trying to make him "a bad seed" in order to absolve Bruce of any responsibility in his death.

I don't even expect DC or their writers to start honoring the fact that Jason was not an angry, reckless Robin (and less of the later than Dick or Tim and definitely Damian). There plenty of ways that retcon can be folded into his history and be compelling and sympathetic. And if they're going to stick with that retcon, I'm only asking that they do it in one of those compelling and sympathetic ways because Jason was 15 when he died, heroically, in one of the most selfless acts in comics, to save a woman who literally handed him over to be brutally murdered. He was 12 when Bruce plucked him off the streets, he'd been homeless and fending for himself for at least two years. I personally think that Jason's story hits harder for him and Bruce if their original, canon relationship, of Jason as starry-eyed and eager to learn and absolutely devoted to Bruce and Bruce to Jason, is preserved. But Jason's origins does leave room for a meaningful interpretation of him as angry and frustrated at the lack of meaningful results of Bruce's methods.

And that's really where my irritation at stories like Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer and Batman The Adventure Continues has it's roots.

Every time one of these stories comes out, I think (or hope, rather) that this will be the one that remembers and respects the origins of the Jason and the Red Hood, that takes into account the changed sensibilities of comics readers in the 30 years since Jason's death and the subtle, 20 year, retroactive campaign to make him the "bad Robin". The "born bad" trope is played out and literally no one likes the message it implies. That some kids are just bad eggs and there's nothing parents or the adults around them can do. Especially when it's played as the kid's fault. If Jason's time as Robin is going to be characterized by anger, then it should be rooted in anger at the social injustices he witnessed as he grew up in an impoverished, crime-ridden, area and the horrors he faced raising himself when every day was a battle for survival. There are topical, meaningful, stories to tell with that backdrop.

But those are never the stories we get.

⚠⚠ Spoilers for Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer ⚠⚠

I'm particularly disappointed in Urban Legends because for the first issue, it looked like that was the kind of story we were going to get. I was put off by the first flashback of Jason being mesmerized by Bruce's guns, and I got that feeling in my gut that it was a bad sign. Jason depicted as impatient and overconfident and the scene with the guns is heavy-handed foreshadowing that got my spidey-sense tingling. I had a inkling then (in the first three pages) of how this story was going to play out, but it was early and I could still see many narrative paths that could lead to a satisfying story. My concerns were soothed somewhat and the little flame of my hope fanned, with the flashback of Alfred scolding Bruce, with Barbara's concern for Jason. A bit of worry returned with the way Jason ruthlessly pursued an addict who didn't appear to be a dealer and with the ending of the issue. The stuff with the addict sat wrong with me but the ending was tempered some by how despicable Tyler's dad was written. The scene was clearly set so that the reader could sympathize with Jason's decision and the scene with the addict could be brushed aside as a side-effect of comics over-the-top need for constant action, so I still held hope.

Issue 2 made me uncomfortable and it's where my hope starts to take a backseat to my expectations. I can dismiss Jason's self-deprecating internal monologue as unreliable narration, except that the flashback reinforces his thought process to explicitly show that it's not unreliable narration, and should be taken at face value. Jason faces physical abuse at the hands of his mother's drug dealer and when the flashback continues later, Jason kills the drug dealer. To be clear, this is a pre-Bruce Jason. His mom is still alive. He's like... 10. He kills this guy for shoving his head into a wall and implying Jason's mother paid for her drugs with sex. This is a scene that serves a single purpose. To show that Jason has always been prone to violence.

In the spirit of full disclosure, there is the small chance the drug dealer might not be dead. But the story obviously wants the reader to think he is, and it hasn't done anything to change that yet.

Starlin already did this story with The Diplomat’s Son in 1988 and he did it infinitely better. AND that’s still technically canon. So now I’m supposed to believe that Jason lost his cool bad enough to kill two douche bags before his sweet 16? Like it’s totally normal for abused kids raised in poverty, who’ve led hard and heartbreaking lives to just... haul off and kill people? That’s bullshit, and when taken with the Jason in the third issue, who is little more than an idiot thug, this story is really doubling down on some fucked up stereotypes.

Which brings us to the most recent issue. I went into this installment with very low expectations. I thought this story was going to be about Jason, through this experience with Tyler, a young boy with a similar background to Jason's, coming to the realization that Bruce's way is the best way and that Bruce did his best by Jason.

That would be annoying (in no small part because it takes increasingly absurd levels of plot armor to keep Bruce's no kill rule relevant, let alone irrefutably right). But I can probably live with that, if only because maybe if Jason officially falls back into line with the Bats crusade, maybe I'll get stories that treat him with respect, stories that don't relegate him to comic relief, dumb brute, or a background body with no lines in a story about the Joker burning Gotham (like Jason would just fucking stand there quietly for that).

And that may still be where the story is going, Jason realizing Bruce is right.

But holy shit do I not have the right words to describe how fucking insulting and gross issue three is.

From start to finish--including the flashback--Jason is written as cruel and fucking stupid. Like straight up dumb.

The entire issue is Bruce explaining the fucking basics to Jason like it's his first day. And Jason flies off the fucking handle and terrorizes a doctor he knows isn't a part of making the Cheerdrops, beats the shit out of some random addicts, and finally, when he can't accomplish anything on his own because he's a dumb brute he calls Barbara for help and rushes in with no information where he's promptly incapacitated and must now wait to be rescued by Batman.

This panel is the least of the issues sins but I can’t screenshot the entire story but it’s representative of the tone for the whole issue (and retroactively tainted the prior two issues).

This is beyond insulting. The only conclusions Jason comes to in this issue are the ones Bruce leads him to by talking to him like he can’t make the simplest connections. And like... in this story Jason can’t make the simplest connections.

This (and the Jason throughout the entirety of this issue) is a far cry from the Jason we fell in love with in Under the Red Hood, who was competent and strategic and intelligent enough to seize control of Gotham’s underworld from Black Mask (who’s no fucking slouch, he’s the first and only person to unify organized crime in Gotham) AND elude and manipulate Bruce until the time and place of his choosing.

This is a far cry from even the Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason who is competent enough to fight the League of Shadows and Ra’s al Ghul (among very dangerous and skilled others) and smart enough to create antidotes for mind control nanotech viruses.

As he should be, by the way. Jason Todd is one of the best, most comprehensively trained fighters in DC’s stable of non powered vigilantes. He’s not irrational or hot headed. He’s pragmatic, tactically minded, and patient. He’s a detective. Right now. Has been since he was 12. Bruce doesn’t have to make him one because he already is. 

Jason is not a stupid thug who uses his fists because his brain doesn’t work. And I can’t tell you how so very exhausted I am by this narrative. 

This is actually the most egregious example of Jason’s skills and intelligence being not just undermined but dismissed entirely. Even Morrison’s Jason had some degree of competency. 

The one, single redeeming factor of this story is the art. It’s beautiful. And Marcus To is a godsend he seems to be one of only a couple of artists who remember that Jason was a child when he was Robin and I’m literally only buying this book because of him. 

Anyway, I’m sorry. I didn’t want that to come out so... um... passionately lol. I’m just very very tired. My intention with this isn’t to ruin it for you, if you like it, that’s fine. 

But this issue shot this story to the top of my "Vehemently Despise” list. 1) Batman: Urban Legends (Cheer), 2) Battle for the Cowl/Morrison’s Batman and Robin, 3) Batman The Adventure Continues.

I hope the next issues somehow salvage this dumpster fire. But I’m not expecting it.

(Damnit. That sounded harsh again. To reiterate, I’m not trying to judge anyone who enjoys it, I just personally hate it and you asked me why lol 😅)

[jostenneil]

What are your thoughts on how Jason and Dick’s anger is portrayed. Seen you mention it before about how Jason lets people know while Dick holds it in until the worst outcome comes out. It’s almost as if Jason is better at just saying outright what he needs or how he is feeling while Dick holds it in.

so like, i've thought on it more and i kinda still agree with what i said prior but i've also come to realize that i think the reason for that difference is that dick starts to suppress more as he gets older and has to deal with more serious problems on his own under the guise of adult leadership. he's actually pretty verbal about things that upset him when he's a teenager and visibly butts heads with bruce on more than one occasion, but it's when wolfman writes him on the new teen titans and starts to really contend with him as a fully fleshed out character whose continuity and character arc are important that his contention with anger genuinely evolves. he has increasingly bizarre circumstances loaded onto his plate, he grows distanced from bruce and can't rely on their relationship to be a buffer for his emotions the way it used to be, and the expectations of being a good, dependable leader are far more pressuring than they ever could have been in the more campy 1966 teen titans run. to me at least. in a way, the anger and how he deals with it are almost a reflection of growing pains. with jason, i think bc he's still in that position of ultimately being a child when he dies and is never allowed to truly "grow up" into a set of responsibilities, the emotional outbursts we see from him are almost always immediate and uncontrolled. he's not responsible for anyone but himself, and that applies not just when he's a child going through tumultuous changes and reacting to the only other person in his life, but can also apply (to an extent) to the way he's written after his resurrection. i'm obv not a fan of a lot of his writing following it but i do agree that his initial reactions and decisions should be very emotionally charged (but still smart obv. i don't agree that he's reckless. just absorbed in his own grief) bc he hasn't really had the time or atmosphere to mature properly

[batcassed]

late night doodle bc I came up with an au idea

AU where Bruce adopts Barbara, Steph, Cass and Harper instead of the batboys

Damian never exists; Bruce doesn’t sleep with Talia

Barbara is adopted by Jim Gordon after his brother and his sister in law, Barbara’s parents, die (as per canon.) When she’s six he is killed by the Joker on live tv, forcing Barbara to watch. Bruce is too late to save Gordon and puts the blame for his death on himself, and tries to atone by giving Barbara a home. Raising a daughter keeps him busy so he doesn’t visit Haley’s circus when it visits Gotham. Dick’s parents fall to the floor, and instead of Bruce, the Court of Owls have their arms open to him.

Steph’s father is cluemaster but he’s put in Arkham early in her childhood. Stephanie’s mother is unable to overcome her addiction to pharmaceuticals (unlike in canon) and this ends in her death. 6 year old Stephanie runs away from her social worker and ends up finding the batmobile in an alley. She hides under the car and her social worker passes by, but when Batman arrives she jumps out to avoid getting run over. He tries to take her back to foster care but she throws a rock at him and runs. Bruce decides to adopt her instead once he finds out her father is cluemaster, and once she tries Alfred’s waffles she agrees to ‘let him’ adopt her

Harper Row is taken away from her alcoholic father when she’s 4 and is the only kid to end up with Bruce in a normal way. He’s officially a foster parent and she’s placed with him. She tells Bruce that she had a brother, Cullen, who she hadn’t seen since being taken away from her father but Bruce is unable to figure out where he’d gone. He’s never been registered in the foster care database and none of the workers that picked up Harper recalled there being another child.

When the Justice League encounters Lady Shiva, she fights them and defeats Batman, but the combined forces of Wonder Woman and Superman force her capture and she’s questioned under the lasso. She tells them about her origin and that a man named David Cain had her biological daughter and was training her to be an assassin. Batman realizes that the daughter in question is still only 6, and adds her and David to his search for Cullen. He finds her being trained by David to be a ruthless killer and rescues her. He realizes that she’s mute and can’t grow up in a regular foster system so he takes her home with him.

Babs is batgirl before she’s paralyzed at 17, and when Steph is older she doesn’t feel right taking on the batgirl name, so she becomes Robin. Steph and Bruce have a falling out when Bruce calls her reckless in the field and benches her so she distances herself from him and becomes Spoiler. She meets a kid named Tim in university who was emancipated from his parents when he was 16 and discovers that since he was a kid, he’s tried to follow batman and robin’s footsteps by fighting crime at night in a red domino and black clothes. Steph reveals that she was the Robin that Tim used to watch at night and takes him on as her partner, eventually training him to be a third Robin, one who was never trained by Batman: Red Robin.

At the same time, Harper spends years trying to find her brother, Cullen, taking on the codename bluebird in the meantime. Bruce takes her on as his partner, not his sidekick, which drives a wedge between her and Steph.

Cass had decided to live a normal life after having the choice taken away from her when she was young, but an attack on her school causes her to fight off a bunch of the rogue gallery to the point of near-death. She holds them off long enough for her school to evacuate and run. After she survives this, Barbara reaches out to her and tells her that if she ever wants it, the mantle of batgirl is there for her. Cass refuses it at first but takes it when she turns 18, deciding to train again, but this time to defend Gotham, and not kill. She becomes batgirl at 19

When Bruce ‘dies’ for half a year, Cass gives the mantle of Batgirl to Steph and goes to Hong Kong to become Black Bat. Harper moves in with Steph and befriends Tim, who believes that Bruce is alive. Nobody takes the mantle of Batman after Bruce’s ‘death.’

After he is rescued by Tim and Steph, Bruce returns to Gotham. Cass returns to be Black Bat and Steph goes back to being Spoiler, though he and Steph finally reconcile.

They find out that Cullen was taken by the Court of Owls and turned into a Talon, and when they try to rescue him, they discover that a second Talon had taken a liking to him and refused to let them rescue him

So of course they take both Talons home. Bruce discovers that the second Talon is Dick Grayson and with Martian Manhunter’s help, they help them learn how to be human again

Dick takes Cullen to live by themselves in a quiet area of Gotham, and Bruce leaves them be, knowing that they deserve to lead normal lives without continuing to be entangled in the batfamily. Only Harper visits.

At the same time, a new crime lord pops up, claiming to go by the red hood. Bruce fears another Joker situation and finds Red Hood to interrogate him and finds out that his name is Jason Todd. Jason, forced to work as a goon for two-face to earn money to support his mother, was a hostage of the Joker and beaten almost to death before Batman saved him. He wants to drive Batman to finally break his code and kill so that he’ll kill the Joker. After a fight between them that almost ends in Jason dying, Batman backs off and doesn’t turn him into the police. Bruce leaves him there, acknowledging that Crime Alley is his territory.

Anyway I’ll probably write this into a fic ✨

[savagenutella46]

I had a few questions for your "Who I'd Be" fanfic/au and it's perfectly fine if you don't have an answer, since you've completed it and are done with it.

The questions that I have are these:

1.) Did Babs first become friends with Mari bc she was interested in this tiny child who was hacking into the Pentagon whenever she felt like it and who knows where else, but decided to become friends with her bc come on, it's Mari.

2.) Does Bruce adopt Tim and Mari early and not due to Tim basically blackmailing into it, once he finds out about the abuse the two are going through, especially Mari as she facing the blunt of it (plus the fact her parents made it where she practically doesn't exist outside of her room), then add on the fact that they know his and his family's identities, as well as the for what I mentioned in the question above?

3.) And when would Tim find out /exactly/ how their parents treat his sister? Would it be when she has a second exhibit and he can't hold back anymore and asks them if they can go see it? Or would it be some other event that causes it?

///

I really love you're work and I thank you so much for sharing it with us. 💙

I have some answers!

Babs definitely would not have stumbled upon dear Marinette Drake had it not been for the Pentagon Incident®, but it definitely snowballed into a shy friendship (on Marinette’s part because we all know Babs is anything but introverted) and quickly into a real, caring friendship between the both of them where I’m sure has some mother-hen tendencies when it comes to Marinette’s recklessness on the internet (you never know what kind of viruses firewalls can give you if you’re not being careful). So, yes! Because, come on, even though she might not see it, Marinette is the GOAT.

For this second one, I had never really went as far to even fathom Bruce taking them in or adopting them? Like, I get that Tim would want to and stuff, but would the opportunity ever come? Say that Jason hadn’t died. How would Tim ever be adopted then? And I’m not even gonna delve into Marinette’s thing because she ain’t even canon son

I definitely, maybe, imagine Tim just finding out little increments of just how much Marinette’s parents don’t even like her. Like, best case scenario, he thought it was just a little bout of middle child syndrome, but then he starts finding all the little pieces of information, like first he finds aborted tear tracks on his sisters face right after she was supposed to have a conversation with their mother and comes back to his bedroom, and then tiny tiny little things, until. The camera. Marinette never threw it away. Of course not, it’s her first camera, and even when it’s smashed to bits, Marinette still keeps it in a little drawer under her desk that no one ever uses. And then, finally. One day. It goes like this:

Tim: Where’s that camera you showed me like a year ago

Marinette: oh lol it’s right here *pulls out a totally different camera*

Tim: nice try. Liar. I know everything.

A nice plan, but very terribly executed because, well, Tim is like ten years old.

Thank you SO MUCH for these questions! Who I’d Be is definitely one of my favorites, and I love that you care enough to ask! Have an awesome day! (Not gonna lie this was sitting in my drafts for a WHILE)

[duketectivecomics]

You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial. 

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this.  I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao) 

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

[ravenkinnie]

I think even if Jason had seen how his death affected Bruce he’d still be entitled to be upset tbh. Like, I don’t understand all those fics where all it takes to get Jason to stop being angry and upset and hurt is someone going like, “oh you didn’t see how he was after you died! He was going to get himself killed!” Like it’s kind of mean, but I feel like it’d make more sense for Jason to be like, “okay cool story, and how would that have helped anyone?? Fucking useless!” I think Jason has a right to be mad about Robin, and wouldn’t/shouldn’t be pacified by arguments of “Batman needs a Robin!” Bc I feel his answer should be “well why is a grown man making his mental and emotional health the responsibility of a kid??” Like, Bruce definitely loved Jason to bits, but his longterm reaction to Jason’s death was awful. He took on a new Robin not long after, and he proceeded to spread the idea that Jason was reckless and hotheaded and violent and contributed to his own death. He turned Jason into a cautionary tale, held him up as an example of failure. I think I’d cut off some heads too if that happened to me

tbh my thing is always that they are both within their right to be upset lmao

the fuckinggggg "jason died bc he was reckless and not 15 and wanted his mom" take dc has been pushing for years is so rancid I don't even accept it 💀💀 also 2000s bruce was such a fail continuously that it's hard to discuss him seriously fr

but the fact that bruce took on another robin etc it's like- jason coming back was a fluke fjgjfhn it wasn't supposed to happen and i firmly believe that grief belongs to the living and there's no right or wrong way to live after loss

but also!!! i dont think jason should care about that necessarily ugjgjg i LIKE this conflict, i like that there's no logical way out of it, I don't think they should ever 100% move past that because jasons death is the worst thing that will ever happen to him and I think the most human reaction is so be selfish about your hurt dhdbshhs I think the staple of good characterisation is that characters aren't always logical and don't operate on explainable emotions, they don't always have to be right about how they react and how they interact tbh

[gothamdad]

THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS PART ONE: CINEMATIC WRONGS AND ANALYSIS COMMENTARY

DO NOT REBLOG.

This is going to be a bullet point list of incidents that occur in the movie, and will either have my general commentary or an analysis of what makes the scene terrible (or in some rare cases, good). TRIGGERS FOR SUICIDE, MENTAL HEALTH, AND DYSMORPHIA 

-bruce trying to kill himself in the beginning of the movie. 

Hes reckless, and willing to risk his life, but not suicidal. But he just purposefully gets into a wreck at 2 minutes into the movie?? for no reason??? theres literally no reason for it other than it being angsty bc they COULDVE started the movie with the mutants doing crime, as the next scene cuts right into it and the following news reports 

-"This reporter hopes that wherever he is, hes enjoying a toast with good friends" said when its the anniversary of batman’s disappearance 

this is stupid I hate this movie. You're telling me Gotham forgives Batman for just disappearing on them? DID THAT NOT HAPPEN IN NML AND EVERYONE GOT PISSED??? Like everyone in this movie seems to have forgot he abandoned the city. Not to mention, and I'm gonna go off on a tangent here, bruce will be batman for as long as he lives. He calls himself batman in his mind even when hes retired. He believes that Bruce wayne is the mask. His whole identity is batman. Saying that hed quit because of jason is not only stupid because it implies Jason's death isnt just as important as his parents, but shows that any tragedy is enough to permanently knock him down. And as if the league, or the family, would have let him give up. Anyway the whole reason the retirement in batman beyond works is because it shows bruce was going to fight until he literally died on the spot, but instead he pointed a gun, didn't even use it, just pointed it, and he realized he wasnt fit to HONOR batman anymore. He broke the rule. And he doesnt deserve to wear the mantle. This is so good because 1) bruce still wants to be batman and 2) it doesnt imply that he gave up at all, and at this point with his decreasing wellness his family WOULD be telling him to stop

-Gordon toasts with Bruce on the anniversary

FBKSBSOANSISSB OH MY GOD IT JUST SHOWED HIM SHARING A TOAST WITH GORDON. this is the anniversary of the last time batman is sighted and gordon. JIM FUCKING GORDON. Is celebrating. When they were literally partners and hed shine the batsignal each night TELL ME WHERE THE LOGIC IS!!! I CANT FIND THE LOGIC!!!!! I'm literally 3 minutes into this movie..... and already this is how its going...

-Gordon and Bruce talk

"You're not worried about me, are you?" Asked when hes in clear danger of being attacked by mutants "noT MorE tHAn i aM tHe ReST oF tHis CItY" ah yes. I forgot that Bruce hated gotham and jim Gordon. My mistake. Common misconception.

-the mutants are introduced

Ugh and it's the worst kind of villains too, jim just described the mutants as "the worst kind of criminals. They are only after violence, with no humanity at all" GIVE! VILLAINS! REASONING! I hate these joker wannabes Joker was already enough we dont need a million more "lol I'm just evil deal with it" villains

"Talk to Dick lately?"asks Gordon "You know I havent" Bruce responds

THIS CONVERSATION IS GETTING W O R S E BC I KNOW HOW THIS MOVIE GOES AND HE JUST INSTANTLY HAS CARRIE BE THE NEW ROBIN- WHICH, IS N O T BRUCE'S TO GIVE. ITS ALWAYS BEEN DICK'S MANTLE TO PASS DOWN- WHEN HE HASNT BEEN SPEAKING TO DICK????

-tangent on how it’s overlooked that Dick Grayson was the one to make Robin, not Batman

This is a sin that not just the movie, but the batman franchise in general seems to always make. Robin was made as a tribute to the flying graysons, and is meant to be colorful and aerodynamic for acrobatic tricks. it should always be dick’s to pass down, or the next robin after. 

-Bruce begins having trouble with holding back his urge to be Batman

His whole wanting to be batman again thing started because of a newspaper with a family's death and pearls being sold. On the same front cover. I'm. THATS WHEN HE REMEMBERS HIS PARENTS? NOT EVERY FUCKING TIME HE HEARS A GUNSHOT? OR CLOSES HIS EYES? OR SEES BLOOD? HE READS A NEWSPAPER THATS FLOATING IN THE WIND??????NOT EVERY TIME HE LOOKS AT JASONS COSTUME? OR THE OTHER CRIMES COMMITTED??????LOGIC!!!!!!!!!! I NEED !!!! TO KNOW!!!!! WHERE IT IS!!!!!!!! ARE U KIDDING ME NOW THE MARK OF ZORRO, WHICH IS WHO THE FUCK KNOWS HOW OLD NOW, IS ON TV??????????? AND HE JUST HAPPENS TO FLIP TO THE CHANNEL.. Batman telling bruce "you've tried to hold me back. But you're weak. Ypu know it in your soul. You're nothing but a hollow shell." Is so STUPID!! WHY HAS HE BEEN FIGHTING BEING BATMAN!!!!!!!!!! BRUCE SHOULD WANT TO BE BATMAN!!!! AND HATE HAVING TO NOT BE!!!! AND A BAT FLYING INTO HIS WINDOW AGAIN???? STOP THE FUCKING CLICHES IM SICK OF THIS . UR NOT BEING NEXT LEVEL, MOVIE. ITS JUST DUMB. ITS DUMB!!!

-Carrie Kelly

her first ??? Appearance??? Is her going into KNOWN MUTANT GANG TERRITORY instead of going through the rain. And scolding her friend for not having backbone WHEN THEY COULD LITERALLY DIE and saying, and I quote, "its better than out there." then when interviewed about the incident her friend says  "It was a flying monster! With wings and fangs!" and she replies with "Reality check, Michelle, it was definitely a man, but he had to be like 12 feet tall" OH YEAH THATS VERY REALISTIC CARRIE. Shes an asshole to her friend and we're supposed to like her.  Oh and Carrie's reason for wanting to be robin? She saw the bat signal while her parents were talking about public marches. That's it. That's her reason. Not because she was attacked by mutants and almost died.

-Giving the movie credit

Okay but if theres another thing I'll give credit for, and I'm sure its unintentional, is that Harvey is the first criminal he wants to take down. Because Harvey is always going to be Bruce's priority. He didnt go after the mutants, but Two-Face. And the way that confrontation goes when it’s revealed harvey thinks both sides of his face are scarred. the Arkham staff fixed his scars before he was ready for treatment, and his mental health wasn’t priority. he was going to have dysmorphia either way, but not treating mental illness worsened it.  kinda? good writing? But I think it was unintentional to have the idea that Arkham didnt know what they were doing and the belief that scars are important before trauma, and how trauma has to be helped first. I dont believe for an instant that's what's meant. 

-Carrie Kelly part two

She gets a Robin costume and goes out onto the roof and is like.... almost dies. THEN THE NEXT SCENE WE SEE HER SHES LIKE COMPLETELY ACROBATIC? WHY IS SHE SO ACROBATIC NOW!!! THIS TAKES PRACTICE!!!

-Batman confronting the man who supplied the mutant gang with guns

Oh, this scene...He hands a guy a gun, knowing full well that he was depressed because his wife was dying and he had to make more money to save her by supplying the mutants with weapons, and just walks away as he kills himself. (input from a friend which i like:  think about everything bruce did to help mr freeze and his wife now think about this scene )

Batman vs Mutants 

oh, and the "batmobile". Aka his tank. Rubber bullets. Ok fine, whatever, but RUNNING THEM OVER AND SHOOTING MISSCLES ISNT LETHAL? AND HOW IS CARRIE KELLY GOOD AT FIGHTING ALL OF THEM WHEN SHE COULDNT HANDLE HERSELF WITH ONE LIKE A WEEK AGO.  hate that the mutant leader is just a ripoff of bane with long pointed nipples I hate this. I hate that batman cant take him down, but carrie kelly can. AND THE MUTANT LEADRER TOTALLY DIED WHEN BRUCE THREW ADHESIVE ON HIS FACE AND HE WAS SUFFOCATED BUT LATER ON IT SHOWS HE LIVES ??

Bruce talks to Carrie 

"What is this thing?" -carrie "Dick called it the batmobile" -bruce "SIR!!" -alfred over the radio There are no words. Then she pops his arm into place and creates a makeshift cast And he says "where'd you learn to do that?” and because she’s a mary sue she says nothing, because miller doesnt know why she should, so he cuts to "what's your name?" and she says "Carrie. Carrie Kelly. robin" and HE FUCKING GOES "MINES BRUCE." and then immediately tells Alfred hes bringing "robin" to the cave. I hate it here I hate that he forgets what happened to Jason aFTER ITS HIS LITERAL REASON FOR QUITTING. WHAT IS THE POINT IF HE’S GOING TO ACCEPT THIS GIRL HE DOESNT EVEN KNOW AS ROBIN?

-Bruce talks about Jason

OH BRUCE'S FUCKING LINE. HIS LINE. IM FURIOUS Alfred asks "have you forgotten what happened to Jason?" And he says "I'll never forget. he was a good soldier. He honored me" I AM !!!! SHAKING!!!! WITH HOW MAD !!!! I AM!!! Bruce would NOT say that shit. Implying that jason wasnt his son, or that jason was only a casualty in a war, or that HE FUCKING HONORED HIM AND NOT THE CITY, OR THE TITLE OF ROBIN "He honored me" shut the fuck up I hate this and dont even get me started on the misconceptions of Robin in the first place. i dont want to go into the debate on whether or not they’re soldiers, which I personally don’t believe. but its just stupid because Jason considered being Robin the best thing that’s ever happened to him, and he was THE BEST. it wasnt his fault he was killed, either. 

-The ending

So the mutant escapes his cell by going through a VENT. A . V E N T. AND ENDS UP IN THE SEWER. I hate that these mutants are just an army of evil people and have no motivation and the leader is just a brute I fucking hate Bruce calling him "son" And the mutants become the sons of batman who fight crime......??? because their leader is gone?? werent they supposed to be evil criminals with no humanity in them?

-Joker

Okay but Joker being absent the entire first part , only to show up in the end hearing news reports about batman, and then smiling as he stands up and just fucking creepily says "darling" holy shit that gave me goosebumps. another credit i have to give. 

[dottie-wan-kenobi]

I loveeee all the songs u chose for Tim!!! Can u maybe do a post or smth explaining why cus it’s so interesting seeing the choice behind these songs

Hi yes I can!! I’m not gonna do all of them here (I can def do the rest if you’d like!!) bc that’s just a Lot all at once lol. Also I might have typos and I apologize but dkjsfhakh I have bandaids on my fingers and it’s hard to type :^/

Disclaimer: some of these songs fit a lot better than other ones

Hard Times by Paramore

I chose this song bc it’s abbout being sad, but the tone is upbeat and happy. Something I’ve noticed abt Tim is that he is (usually) functionally depressed. Like, I read an article about high functioning depression, and it said that a lot of people who have it have a hole in their life – that they can have a job (and Tim does, being either CEO or Red Robin or both), a partner (who I like to think of as Kon), and be part of a family, maintaining this happy/upeat facade, but if you ask them what they do for fun…they usually can’t answer that. And I don’t think Tim can. When he was younger, he could, but what now? 

Fave Lyric: “Walking around / With my little rain cloud / Hanging over my head/ And it ain’t coming down / Where do I go? / Gimme some sort of sign / You hit me with lightning! / Maybe I’ll come alive”

Little Lion Man by Mumford & Sons

I chose this bc I can picture Tim, during a low moment like when Kon or Bruce died, just falling apart and thinking he’s not going to survive it, isn’t strong enough, had something to do with their deaths happening,,, etc. Also there’s a line that references anxiety and like lmao that’s Tim!

Fave Lyric: “Tremble for yourself, my man, / You know that you have seen this all before / Tremble, little lion man, / You’ll never settle any of your scores / Your grace is wasted in your face, / Your boldness stands alone among the wreck / Now learn from your mother or else spend your days biting your own neck”

Heroes (we could be) by Alesso feat. Tove Lo

I chose this bc Tim needed a happy song and also because this has such Young Justice vibes !!!! This is Tim and his friends having fun, roaming around, kicking bad guy ass together!! Actually upon looking at the lyrics again, it’s both YJ and Batman & Robin. It just encompasses Tim’s early days of being a hero I think, the happy carefree nature and the bravery and the hope

Fave Lyric: “Everyday people do everyday things but I / Can’t be one of them / I know you hear me now, we are a different kind / We can do anything”

Burn The House Down by AJR

Tbh I mostly chose this bc its a bop and I think he would sing along to it. BUT I also think this kind of represents his life as a public figure/celeb??? And if I wanna go even further, I think it could represent him when he’s older and more confident, with a better self esteem and maybe a lil less depressed (which I hope is in the cards for his future). Also it talks about lying a lot???? I’m sorry, I don’t have a good analysis for this one lmao

Fave Lyric: “Way up way up we go / Been up and down that road / Way up way up, oh no / We gon’ burn the whole house down / Watch me stand in the line / You’re only serving lies / You’ve got something to hide / We gon’ burn the whole house down”

Don’t Let Me Down by The Chainsmokers feat. Daya

I chose this bc it reminded me of Tim and Dick. I’m of the opinion that Tim getting fired from Robin was the right choice and that Dick wasn’t being cruel or anything like that at all, but I also think that Tim probably saw it that way which is valid. So it’s like, to him, Dick was his big brother who was basically always there for him, and then suddenly… he’s not. And everything else going on in his life starts to suck dramatically, and not having his big brother makes it worse, and he feels betrayed. Meanwhile Dick really is on his side, life is just also terrible for him too so they can’t be as close as they were when Tim was Robin. It can also be about Bruce or Kon tbh – just, wanting one of them to be there and they’re not.

Fave Lyric: “Crashing, hit a wall / Right now I need a miracle / Hurry up now, I need a miracle / Stranded, reaching out / I call your name but you’re not around”

More under the cut!!

Don’t Play by Halsey

This…. I chose this bc I really love the celebrity versions of the Bats, and also how competent Tim can be, and this song brings both of those together. Lol this could also be like…what other people think the Bats/Tim think like?? “Don’t play with me, I’m rich and will fuck you up” kinda thing. This is one of the ones that fits less well than the others but I still get Tim vibes from it so I’m keeping it

Fave Lyric: “Tryna take back what you say to me / I don’t give a damn what you say to me / There ain’t no time for games with me”

Over My Head (Cable Car) by The Fray

I get the feeling that after bad shit happens to Tim, he feels the way this song shows. I haven’t read much YJ so I can’t be sure, but I get the feeling that Tim, no matter what the truth is, feels like he’s alone and there’s no one who will help him. Obviously that can be tied back to his childhood and how he had to take care of himself, and so when there are people who actually do wanna help him he doesn’t see it?? And he’s down on himself so he’s probably thinking “they don’t want to help me, and I can’t blame them”

Fave Lyric: “But that’s how it’s got to be / It’s coming down to nothing more than apathy / I’d rather run the other way than stay and see / The smoke and who’s still standing when it clears” 

Icarus by Bastille

Okay not so much the drinking aspect of this song but EVERYTHING ELSE. I even used one of the lyrics for a fic title. Basically my thoughts here are: 1) everyone looks to the Robins and sees how much they do and it’s just A Lot, 2) Tim knows Jason died and so he probably thinks that’s in his future too even if Dick survived, and 3) Tim is doing a lot and feeling a lot and trying to protect himself and his feelings, which is hard work especially for someone so young

Fave Lyric: “Living beyond your years / Acting out all their fears / You feel it in your chest”

Needed Me by Rihanna

Again,,,, the Competence. I love that shit. I love BAMF!Bats, and tbh I think this could apply to more than just Tim, but I picked it for him bc of the first lyric!! This is also one of those ones that doesn’t fit super well but djkhfjkdshah I think this could really fit an AU Tim where he’s like. More morally gray. Not necessarily a bad guy but just more confident, more arrogant maybe, and more jaded from the hero-ing life

Fave Lyric: “I was good on my own, that’s the way it was, that’s the way it was / You was good on the low for a faded fuck, on some faded love / Shit, what the fuck you complaining for? / Feeling jaded, huh?”

What I’ve Done by Linkin Park

Okay I think this fits a lot of different things: his actions after Kon’s death, his and Damian’s relationship, the lies he’s told (to ppl like Steph, his dad, Tam?), his relationship with Bruce maybe?? I can also see it as him thinking on who he was as a kid – a stalker basically lmao, but ultimately harmless – versus who he is now – a skilled vigilante who’s definitely not harmless. Stark difference there. Also he’s forgiving himself, which is something I think is important for somebody with a low self view

Fave Lyric: “In this farewell / There’s no blood / There’s no alibi / ‘Cause I’ve drawn regret / From the truth / Of a thousand lies”

Tell Me You Love Me by Demi Lovato

I chose this because I think Tim is fucked up by the neglect he suffered in his childhood. I think parts of this song can be directed at his parents, the Batfam, his partner(s). He’s afraid that they’ll leave him and he needs the reassurance. Whether or not he gets it is another matter but kdsjfjkdsah. Really, I think this is all just what he’s thinking, and NOT what he’s saying. He needs the reassurance, yes, but he’s not actually asking for it because he doesn’t know how

Fave Lyric: “Bad at love, no, I’m not good at this”

bellyache by Billie Eilish

When I first added this to his playlist I somehow didn’t realize it was about a murderer but dkjfhkjshjkah whatever I’m keeping it. Let’s just go with this is a song about being fucked up (in whatever sense u wanna take that as) and it’s not happy? But like the first one, it’s upbeat and positive. I think the happy sound hiding the less pretty truth is something that explains Tim a lot. Also its a bop and he might sing along to it

Fave Lyric: “Everything I do / The way I wear my noose / Like a necklace / I wanna make ‘em scared / Like I could be anywhere / Like I’m reckless”

Migraine by Twenty One Pilots

Just Another Song About Tim’s Abysmal Mental Health

Fave Lyric: “Behind my eyelids are islands of violence / My mind ship-wrecked / This is the only land my mind could find / I did not know it was such a violent island / Full of tidal waves, suicidal crazed lions / They’re trying to eat me, blood running down their chin / And I know that I can fight or I can let the lion win / I begin to assemble what weapons I can find / 'Cause sometimes to stay alive you gotta kill your mind”

Fake Love by Drake

I hate Drake but kjdsfkjdsfhajh this goes back to a few things. His celebrity and how he’s seen/treated differently by others because of it, his low self view and the paranoia that people aren’t really there for him no matter what the truth might be, how he sees things others wouldn’t, his relationships with people like Damian and Bruce. I think he’s more forgiving than this song would imply, so maybe this is also for that AU Tim I mentioned above???

Fave Lyric: “I’ve been down so long it look like up to me / They look up to me / I got fake people showin’ fake love to me / Straight up to my face, straight up to my face”

Six Feet Under by Billie Eilish

TIMKON TIMKON TIMKON. Post Kon’s death TimKon and Tim is grieving and trying to forget bc it’s so painful!!!!!!

Fave Lyric: “Our love is six feet under / I can’t help but wonder / If our grave was watered by the rain / Would roses bloom? / Could roses bloom / Again?”

Flaws by Bastille

Idek, I feel like this could be how he could view his relationship with Steph, Cass, Damian, Bart, Dick??? Anyone? Just feeling like he hides his flaws and how he feels, and they don’t really (or at least, he thinks they don’t), and he likes that.

Fave Lyric: “There’s a hole in my soul / I can’t fill it, I can’t fill it / There’s a hole in my soul / Can you fill it? Can you fill it?”

do re mi by blackbear

I’m mostly joking when I say this but this is how he feels about Ra’s al Ghul. It doesn’t fit exactly, bc Tim and Ra’s were NOT together ever at any point, but this song is about being annoyed by someone you have a history with and wishing you’d never known them. Which is how I feel Tim should feel about Ra’s. lol

Fave Lyric: “If I could go back to that day we met / I probably would’ve stayed in bed / You wake up everyday and make me feel like I’m incompetent”

Bored by Billie Eilish

I really think this is Tim talking to his parents. Like, when he’s a kid, or when he’s older and looking back, he’s thinking “I did everything I could, it wasn’t enough, and I know it’s not fair but I can’t do anything about it.” I think this song is supposed to be romantic but I’ve never heard it that way skdjfkjsdhakjh I just always think about Tim, home alone and thinking about his parents.

Fave Lyric: “I’m not afraid anymore / What makes you sure you’re all I need? / Forget about it / When you walk out the door and leave me torn / You’re teaching me to live without it / Bored, I’m so bored, I’m so bored, so bored”

Rose-Colored Boy by Paramore

This one is like… everyone else seems to have an easier time being optimistic and positive than Tim does, in his mind. Idk I don’t have much to say kdsjfhsdjkah

Fave Lyric: “Hearts are breaking, wars are raging on / And I have taken my glasses off / You got me nervous / I’m right at the end of my rope / A half-empty girl / Don’t make me laugh, I’ll choke”

King of the Clouds by Panic! At The Disco

This is mostly because it’s a bop and Tim would like it. But also…this is a song about dimensional travel (apparently) and having ambitions that seem lofty, both of which I think Tim can definitely understand!! 

Fave Lyric: “And when I fall to rise with stardust in my eyes / In the backbone of night, I’m combustible / Dust in the fire when I can’t sleep a wink, I’m too tired / This old world, this old world”

[abiik]

@vhsgf replied to your post “this song made me realize i've never written about jason missing zoe”

heather this might be too forward and angsty of me to say (pls lmk if is) but now i am curious about zoe reacting to jason's death and then mirroring w jason coming back from the dead and then finding out his best friend is dead. like it sounds so PAINFUL but like. also i wanna know about it. heather what have you done i-

i had to put my hair up for this. im literally so emotional about this rn,,,like when am i not but STILL OKAY IT MAKES ME VERY [SCREECHES] (also a read more because this is fucking long im so sorry)

okay let’s start with zoe because jason’s death is a traumatic thing for her on like multiple points all relating back to when she was like elementary school aged (im pretty sure i have it where she’s like 8 ish when this happens). before jason and before going into the whole vigilante business – no matter what version of zoe you prefer – she loses her two younger brothers in a joker related accident. he kills them. and zoe… zoe is so,,, well she’s angry. because no one does anything. no one. not that fabled batman, not the police, not the fucking government – NOBODY. and she’s just supposed to keep living her life like everything is fucking fine because oh that’s just the way gotham is. and like why the fuck would she just keep living her life when her barely out of toddler aged little brothers are now dead?? why wouldn’t she want to do something about that?? why the fuck should she just let it roll off her back like no biggie?? (of course, this is a catalyst for her mother’s downward spiral and eventual disappearance, and then keme’s).

then of course, there’s zoe’s powers. at that age she didn’t really understand the extent of them, what she could do with them and all that, but as they develop and her own awareness of them develop, she is faced by like intense guilt and remorse. if only she’d been able to do something. if only she’d been there. if only she could’ve stopped the joker. if only, if only, if only. and like, realistically, there wasn’t much she could do. it wasn’t like she knew fully how strong she was; she’d barely gotten flying down at that point, but then she’s growing up and she realizes she never really had a limit. and she kind of has this complex, i’ve said it before but she really does try to bear the weight of the world on her shoulders, so everything that has happened to her up until this point after the twins die, it’s partly her fault; if only she could have been better, she could have saved them, she could have her mom, she could have keme – she could have her family back.

then, of course, there is in all of this her intense hatred of the joker. and by correlation to the whole fucking issue, gotham city and batman. (ive said that they kind of grow to like each other more, but when z and jay become friends and through their teen years until his death, it’s kind of like whenever youre gay and your bff is gay and you both kind of hate the other’s really fucked up parent who’s okay sometimes but isn’t all the time and you would totally like throw down with them if only there weren’t like,,,repercussions)

anyway, so when jason dies, it’s a big fucking deal. like he’d already been acting weird, bruce was worried about him, z was worried about him, and then he dies okay. and zoe… bruce doesn’t tell zoe right away. he doesn’t tell her and when zoe does find out, she. is. pissed. all of the shit with her baby brothers comes back. she wasn’t there. she wasn’t able to save him – because she sure as hell KNOWS that she could have at this point. and now he’s GONE. AND THIS ENTIRE TIME, SHE HAD NO FUCKING CLUE BECAUSE BRUCE DIDN’T TELL HER!!! she couldn’t even go to his funeral!!! and then, AND THEN, on fucking top of that – it was the joker who killed him. so jason’s death was like a fucking quadruple blow to her.

after finding out the details, zoe goes binary for the first time. and it’s… well it’s scary. it takes a whole lot of coaxing from old teammates and being physically restrained by diana (who lowkey is kinda like why?? are?? we?? stopping?? her?? from?? killing?? the?? joker??) and clark and donna, and they can’t even really knock her out because when she’s binary, there’s only really waiting out the duration of the high until she passes tf out from using too much energy. which she DOES and then after a good long talk with gran-gran, zoe’s going on a much needed retreat with diana to themyscira.

during that time, zoe’s super depressed. like reasonably, so. she’s so exhausted and she’s still angry but she’s also just like,,, so tired. she lost her best friend dude. like she loves jason so much, she loves him so much, and then he was just gone. poof! and at least, at least with atsa and ahiga, she got to like, be there for their send off. jason ends up being another hole in her life, like her dad and her mom and keme. he’s added to this list of people who all were just…g o n e. she didn’t get to mourn them. like obviously, she can, but every time she thinks about jason, she begins to spiral. (this is kind of when she starts drinking,,,, human alcohol can’t really touch her but she does therapeutically – which is!! not good!!) she also begins to distance herself – from jason’s titans (connor holds on with an iron grip and eddie still checks up on her, but rose was just as distraught and kyle is still kind of numb), from the original titans, from bruce and alfred, from diana, even from gran-gran and uncle bell. she fills the void with work as well as the alcohol that doesn’t really do anything to her except make her mouth taste gross and weird and she hates it but it’s become a habit. if she isn’t out doing some reckless thing while saving the world, then she’s at a bar or just sitting by the ocean.

she has bad dreams too, like horrible dreams. and like,,, they’re not necessarily horrific or anything,, she usually dreams about good times, memories with jason or with atsa and ahiga, sometimes some weird mixture of all three of them hanging out together and it’s the worst fucking thing because she wakes up and she wishes she was there too, that she could stay with them, because she misses them so much. she just wants her family back, she wants the family she had before jason and dick and alfred and the titans, but she also wants them too – she wants all of it.

and then it all comes to head with her dad’s sudden involvement with earth and shit. zoe sacrifices herself not only because she carries the fucking world on her shoulders and has a stupid martyr complex, but also because she thinks she’d be okay dying like this. she doesn’t. die that is. she doesn’t die but she also doesn’t come back.

jason’s revival story arc thing is all a bit murky for me bc I kind of like mix the whole waking up and clawing himself from his grave and also the under the red hood storyline (and like correct me if there is a version like that bc like,,, idk I can’t remember). anyway, so jason comes back, and like it’s kind of messy bc of timeline shit but he doesn’t really come back, come back, until z’s gone. like gone gone. like they held a funeral and everything for her. jason didn’t get to go and THAT is SHIT. like yeah, he wasn’t fucking alive, nobody fucking knows he’s alive anyway, but it still hurts.

and like,,, you know what else kind of hurts, is like he kind of thought that after he came back, if no one was on his side – if for some reason literally everyone was against him – he’d still have zoe. that’s the worst fucking part. he hears about what happened. he hears that she literally went ballistic. and like,, jason KNOWS that zoe would have his side, that zoe would be there for him, that even if she might not have agreed with some of the things he’s done, that she’d be right by his side, showing she cares. because like. like I know bruce is kind of stunted with emotional expression, but it’s really hard to feel like you’re appreciated when someone else’s love language is so fucking hard to translate, when you need constant validation, to be told you matter to be shown you matter to them and they can’t accommodate even a little bit, because of their pride or because they have to deem that you deserve it all of a sudden. and like I love bruce, but they way he treats his kids is shit. so yeah. jason feels hella alone when he comes back and his best friend, his rock, his ride or die (literally wfkejvnk) is fucking gone.

jason definitely has nightmares too. he doesn’t know how zoe died, like really know – no one does, because there hadn’t been a body. and jason’s mind can be a pretty dark place already, add on top of that the nightmares about his best friend dying the same way he did, or being like dick, who actually witnessed the explosion that ‘killed’ zoe. he can’t even fathom what zoe went through with his death, but eventually, as jason kind of comes back into the batfam and shit, he also kind of gets to be with the last of zoe’s family. gran-gran and uncle bell are much warmer than bruce wayne and that too big mansion and that cold fucking cave. jason goes to the ranch a lot, or finds himself at uncle bell’s antique shop whenever he needs a breather, to just be alone with something that close to zoe.

they literally both go through that period where they’re extremely reckless with mourning and regrets and fuck i never got to say this and fuck what could I have done differently, what could I have changed if I’d been there? but where jason is able to recover more effectively, zoe doesn’t do so well in space.

really, that song had triggered thoughts about jason going through her things, the things she left in his bedroom – that bruce refused to touch or move or anything – and just thinking back on their life together. it was definitely shorter than they expected and when jason thinks about it, it’s a whole bunch of salty anger and throat swelling sadness that has him kind of crippled. because like,,, he also knows how the twins died, he knows how it happened, not only did he have the firsthand accounts from those most effected, but also like, he read the reports. he KNOWS, and he feels kind of guilty, just a little bit, that what he did put her through a similar version to losing her baby brothers.

NREJKVNERLFEWLFJNEKR FUCK OKAY I THINK I NEED TO STOP LIKE THIS IS OBVIOUSLY JUST A BIG DUMB BUT BFJKERNFKJEN F   U   C   K  OKAY

[haunted-wesley]

wesley gardi-

Heyy amber here with muse #2, because what else do you do after joining an rp but create more characters lol!! So this is Wesley, he’s my smol ghost babey and i would die for this dead nerd. we’re doing bullet points again, folks. 

About Wes-

Jason Ralph faceclaim

rescue

s m o l

500 ish years old? time moves weirdly when you’re dead, it’s hard to keep track

ghost babey

grew up in orphanages (all my muses have no parents... do i project??? perhaps...) which isn’t fun now, and definitely wasn’t fun centuries ago either

met the love of his life at the last orphanage he was in the care of and basically it’s like if Romeo and Juliet was actually romeo and mercutio bc mercutio obviously loved romeo way more then juliet ever did bc he knew him for more then 11 hours soooo 

precious teenage love and reckless bravery and all that good stuff, boys are 1000% endgame and decide to run away together

so fucking obviously that’s when wes decides to die, bc nothing says ‘i love you’ quite like never showing up to your meeting spot bc you’re like... dead

basically, some guy robs him while he’s on his way to meet Mr loml, stabbing him in the process, and he dies alone in some dirty 1500s alleyway

end of story except not really because boy is now a fuckin ghost?? only everything is jumbled up and memories are twisted and broken, and he kind of wanders for a few hundred years, not knowing really anything about himself

who he is now isn’t necessarily who he used to be; he wouldn’t know though.

Powers-

Intangibility- Like, the OG ghost power tbh. His natural state is intangible, passing through any and all matter. Holding a tangible form is much more difficult, and depends a lot on wes’ ability to keep a calm mind. Which he is very very bad at doing

Invisibility- actually like 90% of wes’ powers are actually just him hiding from social situations, which is a Mood

Immortality??- Idk, are you immortal if you’re already dead? Whatevs, basically he just don’t age. On account of him being... dead.

Kinks-

Praise kink

Overstimulation

Exhibitionism

Light bondage (he’s not a very hardcore guy tbh, but cuffs, ropes, etc)

Possible Connections-

long lost lover- already filled!

murderer- idk, i think it’d be fun if like he meets someone and they get along great, and one day wes is just talking about how some person just stabbed him to death one night, and the other person is like ‘...shit’ bc they totally stabbed him, only not fun at all and violently angsty is what i mean. i mean angst.

any connection you want, im open to any idea, as most are better than mine anyways whoops!!