#vivi tfota

[myhyperfixationisbooks]

Vivi *arguing with Madoc*: This bloodline ends with me. Jude *whispers to Taryn*: That's the fanciest way I've ever heard someone say "I'm gay".

[ivycrestfell]

i think it’s really bittersweet that madoc didn’t tell Jude and Taryn and vivi that their mother and father knew each other in elfhame.

Jude was surprised to hear that Justin was ever in elfhame. (I love how she thinks it’s normal for human fathers to have a forge in their backyard)

He allowed them to believe that eva and Justin were (mostly) innocent, that their deaths were unprovoked. Though in madocs eyes of course they weren’t, but he didn’t want them to think lesser of their mother and father for being unloyal, thieves, murderers, and arsonists lol.

on the other hand, he may have just done so to shield himself from the shame that his wife left with his blacksmith.

but in a world where taking lovers isn’t frowned upon, the more the merrier and whatnot when it comes to relationships, i doubt it. Though of course having lovers is different from marrying your husbands blacksmith and faking your death (and taking his baby) is another story.

Also I’m surprised no one told Jude and Taryn and vivi about it. Especially vivienne. I feel like she could’ve known, and maybe kept it from Jude and Taryn? She had some friends in elfhame, and i suspect, the way she dwelled on her memories of their family and the mortal world, that she asked anyone about her mother.

Anyway idk feel free to add on 🫶

[madockisser]

Hello! I love your analysis and had a questions for you

What are your thoughts on Vivi and Heather? Do you think vivi is toxic?

Vivienne Duarte analysis/short vivi and heathers relationship analysis

hii! Thank you for the ask! btw yes i have seen your other asks and i am working on them! just verrryyy slowly(most of them are more than halfway finished but i am missing little tidbits of info)

let me just get this out of the way: her upbringing.

Vivienne very obviously adored Eva and Justin and considered them family. we don’t have a whole lot of her speaking abt them, but in the lost sisters Vivienne says that Eva was once speaking w her, in the bathtub, and Eva had pretty much told her to be kind. To be kind just because she should:

it makes me think a lot abt Eva and what she thought of the fae, and also madoc, but from vivis pov, she wasn’t too pleased w this as a child, and she “thinking it unfair, began drowning boats under the suds again”(not word for word)

i just thought it was worth mentioning. Vivi doesn’t seem to take her mother’s advice, but perhaps she COULD act worse. she COULD act like a monster, yet holds herself back from doing so? Vivi is half human, but faerie blood breeds true.

anyway, Jude only had good memories of her parents, they seemed to be very good to them all, Justin, who never raised a hand to discipline them, and Eva, who “threw her head back when she laughed” and stuff. I don’t recall any negatives of their parenting. Of course minus hiding the world of faeries and that danger from them, but can you fault them for that? Not really.

Anyway, vivienne had more memories as she was around 2 or 3 years older? She was 9 when madoc took her to elfhame.

The point is, she holds more fondness for the mortal world since she was there longer, and also acts like she has more fondness for their parents bc she is elder and has more memories of them.

i think she also holds more fondness for the mortal world bc she doesn’t want to face the reality that her father is a horrible murderer.

It’s unfortunate that we don’t see if she ever KNEW that she was fae before madoc came around, which would’ve been interesting, and if she didn’t, maybe she copes w being “a monster” by staying in the mortal world.

Her character is devastating.

She doesn’t seem to fault Eva for “stealing” her, or Justin for anything. She places all the blame on madoc(understandable, i only mention this bc jude doesn’t seem to do the same, partly so it’s easier for her to come to love madoc) and as the girls come to care for him, she seems to begins to try to convince them otherwise thru hurting them and raging.

random knowledge dump abt vivi below before the actual analysis:

1. vivienne is described a lot of ways, by Jude and Taryn, selfish but in a fun way, and moody when things don’t go her way. her behavior seems very up and down, could be from trauma, could be from her fae nature.

2. Vivi stays in elfhame for Jude and Taryn, and when Jude and Taryn are no longer at home, she leaves for the mortal world. which is bittersweet that she stayed for them and only them.

3. Vivienne faults orianna abt treating Jude and Taryn in a sort of discriminatory faerie way, but she also sorta does the same, through her actions.

Anyway sorry for the ramble, here’s the actual analysis:

I’m splitting this into parts, w her relations, like w heather. Vivi and heather, now i love them. Especially in the 1st book, a fae x human couple that meets up at the mall and at art school is soso cute!

but like every fae x human relationship, or any relationship at all, there’s bound to be problems.

Most of these problems stem from vivis personality and nature itself.

Before i get into it, i wanna quickly add that we see vivi thru Jude’s pov, so there already some bias, there. Also this is just my perceived opinion!

Vivi, throughout the whole series, is a very interesting character. honestly i often think that she’s pretty unfeeling toward humans.

she faults Taryn and Jude for loving madoc, for succumbing to the magical aspects of elfhame and the fae. which makes sense, she is fae herself, she has few reasons to have any sort of attachment to elfhame or the fae.

but it’s to be noted that vivi has the capacity to be quite cruel, slapping and pinching Taryn and Jude for loving madoc and the beauty of the high court.

(now you could say that cruelty was stemmed out of love, out of her want for her sisters to be safe, but vivis other actions are also pretty cruel, in the sense that she may not mean for it to be awful, but it is. she’s fae, so it’s harder to analyze her true feelings)

but what we see of Vivis personality, is that she is very selfish. Jude says that vivi acts like what has happened to their parents is her tragedy and hers alone. she also says that vivi is selfish in a way that can be fun, she eggs ppl on to have fun w her. (eva Duarte vibes)

i can understand how vivi may feel about the girls in elfhame, perhaps she blames herself for what happened to Justin and Eva, since of course, madoc came for vivi to bring to her elfhame. and then she perhaps further faults herself for not being able to persuade them to leave elfhame w her.

one of viviennes main problems however, is that she simply does not try to understand. she does not try to understand humans and their feelings, her sisters and their dreams, or why Jude and Taryn feel the way they do for madoc and for elfhame. She doesn’t understand that elfhame is their home.

Taryn says this in her internal monologue in the lost sisters:

now I’ve got mixed opinions on this. Of course she doesn’t want Jude and Taryn to stay somewhere that is vehemently unsafe for them, that harbors their murderous father and every other horrible thing for humans. but she almost acts like them staying and facing hardship is what they signed up for. she doesn’t seem to understand that they have little to no choice.

they’re human and she is not. they cannot glamour, and they are mortal. Leaving elfhame means eventual death. Jude doesn’t seem to fear it, but Taryn’s actions make it almost seem like she does. not just wanting to belong- they want to live long. who doesn’t want to live an immortal life in a magical world?

and not just that of course, it’s that Jude and Taryn, (mostly Jude since she states it in her pov) is that they don’t feel like they belong in the mortal world anymore.

now she is fae, but we have seen faeries with the emotional capacity to act without selfishness, to love wholeheartedly (obviously she loves her sisters)

i think vivi is painfully comparable to Locke. Don’t hate me for that take but I’ll explain how they have similar qualities, especially when it comes to treating humans. Humans they are supposed to care abt

the same way that Locke did not try to love the way a human loves, to only explain to Taryn not to expect a faeries love to be like a humans, effectively dismissing his neglect toward her, is pretty similar to how vivienne did not bother to not only tell heather at a suitable time abt faeries and that she is one, that she comes from a world where humans are hated, but also to completely dismiss heathers feelings and drag her to elfhame anyway.

And despite the abuse she has witnessed Jude and Taryn endure, she doesn’t even bother properly telling heather how to be safe in elfhame.

vivi acts very often when it benefits her, trying to drag her sisters to the mortal world, not telling heather abt what she is, etc. she wants and expects things to go her way.

She also pretty often dismisses her sisters dreams. Jude’s knighthood, taryns “throwing herself on some faerie boy”, Jude’s being queen, and oaks future.

She thinks of herself. she swims with Locke and cardan and nicasia and valerian, fully aware of the abuse jude and Taryn endure with them, because they’re friends.

maybe you can chalk it up to viviennes being immortal, so she sees Taryns and Jude’s inconveniences as not worth her time.

but as the one person who should be protecting her sisters, she sure seems to piss off and do whatever else is convenient for her.

add on: Her being friends w their abusers was always so strange to me. it sorta feels like a “told u so!” to Jude and Taryn. she WANTS Jude and Taryn to come live in the mortal world, so maybe she just doesn’t try to help in elfhame for that reason. like she goes out of her way to be a pain (by befriending their abusers) so they get fed up and LEAVE.

another edit bc idk where to fit this: vivi was also friends w rhyia, who, in Jude’s opinion, shared vivis content to throw away customs and sorta act unlike her status and title. free! anyway that leads me to how Jude also said that vivi also liked bringing shame to madocs name and would be proud of her if Jude did something to bring shame to their house (encouraging bad behavior is very funny of her)

i also want to add that vivienne knew that Taryn was sending messages to Locke. before Jude started seeing him. this is stated in the lost sisters. but when vivi is asked if she knows who Taryns secret man is, she doesn’t know. so either she’s dumb or she REALLY doesn’t pay any care or attention to her sisters at all.

now she is a redcap, we are reminded of this not only when she admits that she’s been waiting for the day to kill madoc and shoots him, but also when Jude punches that mortal boy, milo, who was hitting on her. Vivienne starts giggling and glamouring.

redcaps, such as madoc, are often described as sorta air headed (in other holly black books) much more focused on bloodlust or whatever conveniences them.

and that’s another thing. The glamour. She seems mostly fine with glamouring her sisters, and also heather. which probably means that she does it pretty frequently in the mortal world as well(aside from just glamouring herself to look human and glamouring leaves). take that info as you will, but i always thought of glamouring as pretty screwed up, though it is completely unsurprising that she would do it in the mortal world and it’s not something to hold against her. it’s just how she survives.

Similarly to how Jude struggles to survive in elfhame, even if that means becoming a spy and whatnot. Just survival yk

though she does admit to Jude that she never glamoured heather before the night of taryns wedding, which is good. bare minimum tho, esp compared to how cardan didn’t dare glamour Jude, and asked for her permission once tasked w doing so.

also if i remember correctly vivienne was pretty dismissive about glamouring heather when Jude confronted her.

now on a more positive note: vivi helps Jude when Jude asks, which was bittersweet (sisterly bonding time searching for a dead body!) and i loved that. i love that despite it all VIVI is always there for her when she asks. Even if she can be sorta cruel sometimes, she’s atleast there for Jude and Taryn.

After the coronation, vivienne said that she would’ve murdered madoc if his plan had gitten Jude hurt. I love her devotion to her sisters. And her willingness to off madoc at any given moment, especially for them. AND that she never gives up on them. She is always asking them to go to the mortal world w her. Stubborn! (I also like when she calls balekin an asshole!)

Vivi lets her live w her in the mortal world, she takes oak in, she helps Jude and Taryn randomly, etc.

now oak. poor vivi, being trusted w raising a whole faerie child and protecting him bc he’s a little prince! very similar to how madoc had little kiddies thrust upon him! Except this was not vivis fault, and she had no choice.

i think her and oaks relationship was cute, how they are still family despite not being directly related, how she raises him in a very big sisterly way! i think her raising oak also helped a lot w her character development. though we don’t see it, id like to think that she learned things from oak, how to be a better sister mostly.

though naturally she threatened to leave oak at school or ditch him (LOL she’s a very accurately written big sister imo) she didn’t, and cared for him, maybe in an offhand way, and maybe she dismissed his dreams, but that’s just how she is lol. Long lasting sibling tradition to dismiss their life’s work ig!

in qon, which im rereading rn so i apologize if i mistake something, heather and vivi are broken up(deserved) and heather asks vivi to wipe her memory of it all.

now vivi, again, doesn’t even TRY to understand. lol. i wonder a lot at the parallels between Eva and madoc relationship, to heather and vivis.

If they are even a little similar, then OF COURSE Eva left madoc, minus every other reason to leave him lol.

anyway, before her memory is wiped, heather is in elfhame, cardans a snake, and heather is an angel as always. she comforts Jude and tells stories to find some sort of solution to cardans curse. eventually, they’re off to patch things up. memory wipe and other romantic endeavors!

I’d like to add, that i think that vivi has the capacity to change, i think she did, while we only got glimpses of their relationship in tsh and tpt, the heather and vivi crumbs seemed so very sweet.

(Edit after reading “faeries never lie” i think vivienne HAS changed by the end, understands heather and where she is coming from, and truly does love her, and was willing to give away years of her lifespan for heather)

and i really adore the thought that she changed her previous foul behaviors for heather. that’s sweet. it’s HUMAN. Vivienne loved like a faerie, i assume like madoc, until she unlearned it, for heather, because she knew that heather deserved better and that their relationship was suffering bc of it.

i highly recommend faeries never lie, as it is adorable, and i loved it. Heather is a really cool character and I’m glad we got her pov on their relationship!

i won’t spoil too much, but what vivi puts heather thru, (GRANTED, heather DID ask for her memory to be wiped, but only bc of the trauma she endured in elfhame) was so sad to read. but their ending bro. IT WAS SO CUTE.

and I’m glad Heather sorta proved herself and proved vivi that she could be cunning, that she can handle the fae even despite her fear of them.

I’m glad to see that their relationship patched up nicely. even if it took vivi a second try to fix things, vivi def deserves a happy life after what’s she’s endured.

anyway, i think Jude’s and heathers relationship is pretty sweet. and vivi acting the way she does, helps the plot move along, and also helps with Jude’s character development. it really outlines that Jude truly is isolated.

moral of the story, i do like vivienne even if more than half of this was negatives (sorry) she could’ve been a better sister considering it all, but it makes sense to me why she wasn’t. She endured A LOT.

anyway, thank you for the ask! i hope it made sense, i sorta just dumped out all my vivi knowledge lol 🫶 (didn’t go back to get Taryn’s pov in the lost sisters bc i don’t trust that sketchy pdf 😒)

Anyway sorry it took AGES upon AGES to get to, i am really sick rn 😐 hope my feverish delirium made any sense at all, especially considering i kept going back and adding paragraphs between paragraphs (IM SORRY LOL)

[iliveinyourceiling65]

Ok idk if this is an unpopular opinion, but I don’t like Taryn at all-

[necromancer-at-abattoir]

Why leave, did I not give you enough? (Part 2)

Was it because of Oriana? Madoc had not seen much of her interactions with the children, but they might have been apprehensive of new stepmother-Vivienne certainly taunted him about his infidelity to his previous wife. And when she had said at the wedding, in front of everyone, that Oriana certainly hadn't married Madoc because even his first wife didn't want him, he had thought that he might kill her. Certainly his stare had silenced her, but she continued to smirk and many fairies silently laughed. He had not been able to face her after the event. Everyone knew about and questioned (Even silently ridiculed) his two human daughters. Yet he continued, and they had come to be accepted over time. The fairies questioned him no more. He wondered if they had cut off her top ring finger or whether it had really been an accident as she claimed. It had been almost 2 weeks since they had gone-the first few days, he had been too busy to notice, yet at the end of 4 days with none of his daughters running around and yelling, he had begun to worry. And then he had checked on them, and they hadn't been there. And he had searched, and they hadn't been there, and then he had searched more, and they were gone. It was only the next day that they had come back, and when he had seen them there, they had run to him, and he had run to them, and then tear-stricken apologies and half-explanations tumbled from their mouths, and Vivienne had looked at them through her cat eyes, blinking back tears, betrayal and anger and grief blazoned on her face like a painting for the world to see. And he had sunk upon his knees and told them that they would have nothing to fear and that Oriana would not hurt them, and that he would not send them away, and that all four of his children would be safe. And he had been so angry at Vivienne, but Jude and Taryn begged him not to punish her, so he relented. 'Why leave, did I not give you enough?' he had asked. Subconciously, he knew that he had taken what he could not give, and had tried to trade jagged, rusted, useless metal for the most beautiful, rarest diamond in the world.

(PART 2! Sorry if it's a bit underwhelming. Please leave constructive criticism under my writing posts-I'd really like to hear how I can improve!)

[frogyayfroggay]

stop the thought of madoc playing human board games cracks me up

madoc: I DID NOT FUCKING LOSE *flips table over*

vivi: sir calm down this is monopoly

[necromancer-at-abattoir]

Awesome art by yu-li-mendokusai! Make sure to check out their blog

[deathsweetblossoms]

Lovers of Elfhame by Frostbite Studios

[grendel-menz]

I have lied and I have betrayed and I have triumphed. If only there was someone to congratulate me.

[myhyperfixationisbooks]

Vivi: *finds a stray cat*

Vivi: We should keep it.

Taryn: We can’t. Dad is allergic.

Vivi: Father can stay outside.

[frogyayfroggay]

real we need a whole spinoff on just them being friends

Vivi and Cardan being friends is literally so great but when? How? Why???? I need more information.

[jkriordanverse]

This is so Jurdan coded

[ivycrestfell]

princess rhyia greenbriar was def vivienne duartes bi-awakening. no i will not elaborate

[highladyofterrasen7]

*in jail*

Cardan: so who should we call?

Oak: I dunno

Cardan: I’d call Jude but I feel safer in jail.

Oak: so you want me to call wren??

Cardan:

Oak:

Both: vivi it is.

[praisethelorde]

I just remembered that Balekin was the one who told Madoc where Jude and Taryn's mom was after she ran away from Elfhame. So Balekin's the reason Madoc took Jude, Vivi and Taryn back to Elfhame with him which indirectly caused Jude to kill Balekin all those years later. He would've still been alive if he weren't such a snitch lmao what a loser.

[necromancer-at-abattoir]

Cardan Greenbriar with people other than Jude, please

Ok, people, does ANYONE in the TFOTA fandom want more of Cardan Greenbriar on his own?

Because most of the content I see with him is always linked to Jude somehow, and it's getting frustrating. This guy is his own person outside of Jude, yet no one seems to think about that. They just woobify him and reduce him to this himbo character.

What about his platonic relationships? I mean, I know he had an effed up relationship with Locke and Nicasia, but what about with Valerian (his thoughts on Valerian in general? Valerian lore?)

Or Vivienne? Or Taryn? Or his sisters or father or mother?

Or even Cardan with the court of Shadows. The Ghost, the Bomb and the Roach. Without Jude.

Or just on his own. Seriously, Cardan is an entertaining asshole who can be regal and intimidating-

and no one takes advantage of that. He's always dumbed down and placed with Jude. It's always Jude, Jude Jude with him and there's a certain point where it gets too repetitive.

Please make more of Cardan Greenbriar without Jude. I promise you that it is possible.