#trigun discussion

[sporesgalaxy]

Re: transgendirisms in Trigun, There's also the extremely yonic imagery of gates (that bit encasing an orb on the rightmost panel) and gaping maws which are especially present when Knives uses his powers.

PLUS. Knives literally rebuilding his body from scratch and being reborn? Transgender as fuck.

Vash having to overcome the association that his Plant powers initially have with his traumatic experiences of violence and victimhood?!!??? With being forced to turn into something he does not want to BE-- WITH LITERALLY PHYSICALLY LOSING CONTROL OF HIS BODY?!!!! THE WAY THAT WHEN HE EVENTUALLY COMES TO TERMS WITH HIS POWER AND LEARNS HOW HE IS COMFORTABLE WEILDING IT (WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM HOW KNIVES TRIED TO FORCE HIM TO WEILD IT), HE IS NIGH UNSTOPPABLE??? EXTREMELY TRANSGENDER!!!!!!!!! FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nicholas-wolfwood]

I love Roberto's dad energy, I feel like it's one of the few things the OG crew had actually, truly been missing

I LOVE IT SO MUCH! I was so hopeful that he'd be Team Dad, and he's been slowly taking that role as it goes (he told a goddamn DAD JOKE last episode), and I LOVE IT!!!

I joked about their little family being a single dad, his daughter, the lost puppy and feral cat they picked up on the way, but I'm in STITCHES that that's what we seem to be getting!

[0039pf]

can i get a kiss?

and can you make it last forever?

i said i’m ‘bout to go to war

and i don’t know if i’ma see you again

[ruporas]

i’ll find you again in every universe. let us be a little more honest, let us have a little more time.

[hashtagloveloses]

many people often interpret the plants in trigun as like vash's "sisters", but i realized since independents are plants' offspring, they're more like his aunts. which creates an absolutely hilarious dynamic of like, him traveling to different towns and checking in on and taking care of his aging aunties. yes hello i'm vash and this is my hivemind of all powerful aunties. they badger him about "that man" he travels around with and "when is he gonna settle down" like the humans. it's adorable

[spaltedrat]

forest critter vw

[myuminji]

[rennyrose]

Having a lot of thots™️ regarding the headcannon that both LR are musically inclined, just with some different music tastes

[cupidle]

zazie

[revenantghost]

I can't remember who said this or where, but I remember seeing someone once try brainstorming what Legato would be like in a softer world, where he could heal or not even go through the trauma that made him who he was... And it was so impossible to even consider that the conversation went nowhere.

We see trauma explored in so many ways in Trimax, to the point that I've called it one of, if not the story's main theme. We see people not dealing with their trauma, we see people crippled by it, we see people overcoming it, we see it saving others from being abused, we see it drive people into being abusers. But the fact that this child was so deeply mistreated and scarred to such a sickening degree, and then was thrust into an environment where being useful was his only value to the point that he barely had a chance to become his own person, to the point that his entire psyche is shattered... Man, Legato fucks me up.

[sporesgalaxy]

and honestly as someone who's always read Vash & Knives' trans-coding as "probably unintentional but very cool," that Thing I just realized about Elandira makes me feel like it might have actually been intentional??? I mean shit dude. The other Plants didn't have to look like that. Using Plant Powers did not need to be that yonic for any mechanical reason. And yet...?????????????????

CAVEAT THOUGH, there is of course a Christian Symbolism explanation for the yonic imagery, re: genesis and miracle virgin births and all that. But what if it was BOTH....?

[nicholas-wolfwood]

Huh. Someone correct my math, but the Road Trip Crew (all four) were together for a little under... two months? Wish we got to see more of that!

Meryl and Roberto meet Vash on the morning of May 25th, go to Jenora Rock and spend the night. Then by the end of the 26th, the town is destroyed.

Three days later (they say Vash hasn’t eaten all that time), they run into Wolfwood, so that would be either the 29th or the 30th depending on what days they’re counting. So the crew gets together on May 29th or 30th.

The Ultimate Incident happens on July 21st (I believe?), so unless Vash was asleep for like, weeks or something, they spent a LOT longer than I thought together.

I WANT TO SEE THE ROAD TRIP THEY WENT ON THROUGH ALL OF JUNE AND MOST OF JULY!

[theladyvalkyrieskyeart]

Holy shit.

[elvenfaur]

I had to redraw my favorite wolfwood manga panel…

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

Trimax Thoughts Vol. 4 Pt. 3

Alright. Bit of a heavier one for tonight. I want to talk Vash's relation to his own feelings of anger and how these tie into his suicidal thoughts, because it's tragically fascinating and I still can't really make heads or tails out of it - specifically in that I don't think anyone is a reliable narrator in this situation so I'm left a little lost as to who to believe.

(ID: A screenshot of four panels from Chapter 7 of Volume 4 of Trigun Maximum. A conversation between Hoppered and Vash takes place, in which Hoppered says "I bet you want to kill me too, right? Of course you do... You want to tear me limb from limb." A somewhat grainy image of Rem, smile visible but eyes hidden, is shown, before Vash replies, his eyes narrowed, "Yeah... I do..." End ID.)

Warning! I am going to be discussing Vash's no good, very bad mental health. It's nothing worse than what is obvious from a read of the manga but if you're not in the headspace for it, you might want to skip this one. I had a bit of trouble writing it, if I'm being honest.

Volume 4 basically solidified what had kept cropping up all throughout the manga - Vash is keeping himself going only through his goal of "settling the score" with Knives. On the next page, Vash says the following:

"That's why... you can go right ahead and kill me. But... before I give you that chance... before I let you bind me in chains, lock me up, and torture me to death... I will send Knives to hell!"

Yikes buddy. This has been a running bit of characterization all throughout the manga - Vash survives because he has to. He takes small moments of joy where he can, tries to smile even when he's not feeling it, looks on the bright side even when things seem hopeless, because that's the only way he can survive to do what he has to. <- There's nothing especially wrong with this. This is a coping mechanism and as far as his coping mechanisms go, it's not so bad at all. It's actually pretty good, all things considered.

Problem is, he also has to embody the ideal he strives for - that no one needs to die, that he will never kill. And herein lies the issue, because Vash already feels like a monster because of July. Any deviation from the peace loving pacifist image he tries so hard to maintain brings Vash's self-loathing to the surface.

Ex. Vash sees the moon his angel arm blew a hole in and goes from denying culpability for the destruction of July to hardly resisting and calling himself a murderer.

Ex. Vash expresses that he holds murderous sentiment towards Hoppered. He sees this as a justifiable reason for Hoppered to kill him.

Even the thought that he has or could still deviate from his promise made in Rem's memory causes him immense amounts of shame. Vash does not want to harm people. Is it out of love? Is it out of guilt? I think at this point, there's no separating them. Vash doesn't kill out of a mix of these two emotions that are so intertwined in his core they have become inextricable.

The thing is... Vash's driving emotion appears to actually be anger, specifically, anger against Knives. He wants to "settle the score", which is a pretty retributive mentality for someone trying to embody pacifism. In fact, that kind of motivation strongly clashes with that image in a way that imo cannot coexist. It's reasonable in his mind to take that stance against Knives, who is not one of the humans Rem died to save, but against humans, it's unacceptable. So, Vash represses his anger constantly.

A great example of this is watching the contrast between Vash fighting Leonof and Wolfwood fighting Ninelives. Wolfwood fights with his emotions on visceral display; he is loud and cocky and desperate and violent. Vash, on the flip side, is almost dangerously quiet and composed, to the point Wolfwood seems a bit disturbed by it - but it's all repression. He needs to stay focused, his motions are calculated to reduce harm even against the puppets, he's eerily silent and his facial expressions are controlled and muted for the most part; all methods that Vash uses to stay in control (<- this is important!).

Here's the thing. I don't know that I necessarily, fully believe that Vash wants to kill Hoppered. I don't know that I trust anyone's narration in this scene - first of all, Hoppered is mad projecting his animosity onto Vash because he needs to secure the image of Vash as unrepentant destroyer of July; if Vash isn't the demon he believes him to be, his quest for revenge was for nothing (well, sort of. Vash obviously did destroy the city, but the intent was not there - and the latter seems to be what Hoppered is banking his hatred on). Hoppered earlier accused Vash of enjoying the fight... which is pretty clearly not true, so that it was Hoppered who prompted Vash's admittance above is a little suspect. Second, we've seen what Vash looks like when actually violently angry.

(ID: Two separate images screenshotted from the Trigun manga. The first shows Vash raising his gun at a recently reborn Knives, angrily shouting the other's name. The second shows Vash having jammed the barrel of his gun into Monev's eye, clearly close to pulling the trigger. End ID.)

To me, I see little indication in the build up to this of Vash legitimately wanting to kill Hoppered. He had no desire to kill Rai-Dei after all, and that was after he knew the GHG were targeting Home. Hoppered is probably the most sympathetic of the GHG. Vash is also in a self-destructive mindset in this scene, having just called himself a murderer after seeing the damage done to the moon again.

Is he agreeing with Hoppered's projection because he wants Hoppered to continue to hate him enough to punish him for the deaths of all those people? (The image of Rem then becomes symbolic of his having already failed to uphold her sacrifice.) Or should I be taking his words at face value and he really does want to kill Hoppered? (In this case, the image of Rem is out of guilt for voicing something aloud that goes against his image of her.) Is it possible that a combination of his self-loathing in this scene and fear of himself has him agreeing with Hoppered out of resignation that despite his best efforts, he is doomed to destroy? (Like in fifth moon's "we were no good from the start". The image of Rem is thus the image of someone genuinely good and kind to him, an image he feels he cannot embody no matter how hard he tries.)

I find it very ambiguous honestly. Any interpretation is compelling from a character sense. Perhaps they all hold merit to some degree.

Regardless of how you interpret the line though, Vash is obviously angry, and for good reason - Hoppered, Midvalley and Zazie have taken Meryl. He's also likely afraid for her too - dude did jump out a window for like no practical purpose whatsoever before Zazie even finished talking. Like that's really sweet buddy but you accomplished absolutely nothing of use lol. Anyways. The point is, even if Vash was angry enough to want to kill Hoppered (and it would be for this reason, since nothing else would really warrant that), then that still wouldn't make Vash secretly evil and awful - first off, having a thought does not mean you will actually act on it, and second, what's the thing we keep getting shown and told, again and again?

Anyone will pick up a gun when their loved ones are threatened.

It's very natural to feel animosity for a person who may have harmed someone we care about. In that sense, Vash is behaving very human.

However, there's an extra layer here that complicates things. Vash has never been shy about his anger, but I think there is a bit of a progression of Vash kind of... tamping down on it faster, reeling it back in a little sooner after an initial flare of rage. ...Ever since Fifth Moon, actually. We also know that he has a strict training regimen, he does not miss a target, even blindfolded - Vash clearly maintains strong control over himself, all to mitigate the potential damage he could cause.

But then there's his Plant abilities. The angel arm. Something destructive he clearly does not understand, and has little if any control over (never mind that control was literally wrenched away from him but whatever). I don't think it's a stretch to say Vash is terrified of losing control.

Any human can feel hatred and anger and potentially cause moderate amounts of harm and damage, but these are likely to be targeted and can be more easily contained. Vash feels hatred and anger and has the capacity to level a city and blow a hole in a celestial body in the blink of an eye, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. That must be terrifying.

Because, see, the no-killing thing is out of respect for Rem, but Vash also strongly wants to, needs to believe that non-violent solutions are possible, that people are good, that anyone can change. Vash, out of some combination of love and guilt, does not actually want to harm anyone, but Vash is also a living gun just under the surface of his iron self-control. And being reminded of that deeply fucks him up, to the point he believes he is a danger by nature, incapable of living up to the standard of kindness he wants to put into the world, so even just the thought of wanting to inflict harm on another is enough to send him spiraling - because what if that is the point he loses his control? "I should never have been born" indeed...

It's interesting to me that Vash should call Wolfwood out on his lack of hope in a future for the world, when he so clearly has little if any hope in a future for himself. He allots himself no place in the world. Maybe you should allow yourself to heal a little, buddy. You have some people pretty close by who, in spite of it all, like you quite a lot...

[acidmatze]

Reblog for larger sample size blah blah blah