#tribe of ancients

[starferret]

Um so I've been really into the Ancients recently-

I think the Shaman characters are super cool looking so I wanted to give them cool designs/translate them into my style (I love you mirror tool) I’ve also been doing way too much research into their lore and society

The main Flipside/Flopside gang

The old guys from Lineland

The Four Sages

The Merlee depicted in the mural in the Pit

A character I made for a thing I'm writing (based on that unused character in the game)

And Bonus!! The TTYD guys (including Dazzle cuz I think he's a Shaman too)

[mochilorddrakeinferno]

Collection of Ancient Symbols:

As part of a broader project to collect and analyze the possible meanings of various symbols and graphics throughout Super Paper Mario, I've recently put together a doc containing a (mostly, probably) comprehensive list of textures and symbols relating directly to the Tribe of Ancients, organized by location. Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QxEbpB385qwCLtJS09jKWx7usOdzYdCrqZ0KHgUt8mI/edit

[velo-cats]

Dappled Pelt

[mochilorddrakeinferno]

Good questions, all! I'll try to do my best to answer what I can of each of these! Won't fit in one post though, so I'll be reblogging my own post with an addition to this to cover the rest soon. 1. The Tribe of Darkness's belief that marrying outside of their group of families would dilute magic could come from a number of places. One, from observations of trends in magical ability among parts of the Ancients that did mix more widely. Two, as you said, from the xenophobia and paranoia we know they had. Three, they were the magical elites of the tribe. Blumiere is among very few Ancient descendants to have a noble title, Lady Merlumina and by extension Madam Merlar (same Shaman name in the original Japanese, but different people of course) being the others. I also think it's no coincidence that their place of hiding was a castle. In other words, their inbreeding may mirror the common practices of real life noble families to keep a more political kind of power in their bloodlines. And finally (though more conjecturally)... The Tribe of Darkness was a tribe with some secrets. They're linked to the history of the Dark Prognosticus, to Merlight who very likely passed the (at the time illegal) information on Pixl creation down generations to Merlon, to the shadow magic experiments in Flopside... I feel like they'd want to keep a tight lid on those secrets, and keeping all their marriages inside of the tribe would be a good way to do that and maintain the secrets that gave them power. 2. We also know that the daughter of the Great Magician, who was an Ancient, was human, as were all the souls that went into the Pixls. Japanese text in Of Bats and Men indirectly refers to Blumiere as a human, and Pixl Uprising text refers to the Ancients collectively with a word that usually refers to humans. The Ancients are almost certainly either a different race of humans from Mario or a different species that's just also called humans, though. 3. The Tribe of Darkness probably helped to create Flopside before they split from the rest of the tribe in my opinion, as powerful and shadowy magic was involved both in the creation of Flopside and in the Flopside Pit, though there is some contention on the subject. that said, yeah, seems like things oddly cooled down over the next 1500 years. Guess there wasn't really that much to do. 4. Every character asked on the subject except debatably Nastasia seems to believe the two are alive, the Pure Hearts it was said might cease to exist alongside them remain standing in their pillars unharmed, they don't resemble Shaydes in the ending, and the place they're in doesn't look like any corner of the afterlife we see, so I think it's a safe bet that they're alive. 5. Castle Bleck is very large, has streetlamps, and is prowled by mysterious shadowy Magiblots with the same name ending as every confirmed Ancient descendant, and seems to have been consigned to the Void before it was even properly opened. It seems very likely that it was the former ToD castle, and at least possible that the Magiblots could be what remains of the tribe, though on that I'm way less certain. Dimentio also has interesting design links to Magiblots, for what it's worth. 6. We know Timpani was cursed to wander dimensions when she was a human, and that aside from her power to travel dimensions that let her find Mario, she has a seemingly distinct "emergency warp" she uses to save everybody in Chapters 4 and 6. My guess is that this may all connect, and that her curse may also have let her see through dimensions and witness what Blumiere did, which we know is at least somewhat possible, since Dimentio can seemingly warp to another dimension and yet still snoop on Count Bleck. 7. Yeah, we've got nothing there, unfortunately. We know that his ancestors "couldn't handle" the power of the Dark Prognosticus, but that's all we have concretely.

Plot holes

Now, I'll put all the plot holes that we can find in the game and the game/the history didn't answer. So, get ready! Because are a lot of them.

1⁘ How the Tribe of Darkness knowed that the marriage out of the magic group will diluted their powers?

Well, this is the one that has the most possibilities of get solved, because, in the game we notice that this tribe didn't mix with other people a cause of pride. And also they had xenophobia, an encyclopedy give the answer: Xenophobia is a term that refers to the phobia, aversion or fear towards foreign people or people from different cultures. Yehah. We alreay know why they din't mix with other people, but,Why they've do that? Because of fear of what happened in the Pixl War, that's why they seppareted from the the tribe of ancients. But, ¿How the Tribe of Darkness knowed that the marriage out of the magic group will diluted their powers? My theory seen in Dimentio's part explains this. 

But, besides that, we still have no anwer a this question, make it a plot hole.

2⁘ The humans in Spm.

I already explain this in my last part,in my theory about this issue. But, What we know about these people in the game? The only human 100% confirmed is Tmpani. She's a member of a tribe near at Blumiere's tribe, and that's all the data we know.

How they know about the ancients' and tribe of darkness' problems? What plane of existence are they on? Or, It's a different dimension? Well, probably we'll never know..

3⁘ What happened to the members of the tribe of ancients and the members of the tribe of darkness between the moment they separated and the begginig in the events of the game?

The lapse is 1,500 years, and we know nothing. It looks like during that time, anyone did nothing. Just we know is that, in the same time they've founded Flipside, the tribe of drakness for a strange reason help them to build Flopside, and that's it.  

4⁘ What happened to Blumiere and Timapni after the events of spm?

They died? Were to overthere? Did they returned to their places of origin? ? We'll meet them again? Who knows?

5⁘ What happened to the members of the tribe of darkness?

According to the official guide, Blumiere when he becomes Count Bleck, killed, assesinated all the members of his tribe, no one survived, and took the castle where he used to live and transformed in Castle Bleck. But, this are only a assumption. Well, maybe not. Because Timpani felt the exactly moment when it happened, and that brings me to my next point:

6⁘ Why Timpani felt what happened in the memories 6 and 7?

The memories are... memories that throughout history is shown to observe the background of these two emblematic characters, from Timpani point of view. But, How did she felt the the fall of his beloved when he become Count Bleck? Because she was not present. Mysterious mysteries.

Although someone shared me that they thought the memories was told from the point of view of Blumiere. If you want to see them from that point of view, it could be BOTH.

7⁘ Blumiere's family

In the hole history, we only know two members of the tribe of darkness: Blumiere and Blumiere's father. We also tought that the reason why his father was very strict with him, it is because he had a high rank within the tribe, or that he was even the chief. But, Mom? Siblings? Family? We don't know. Or perhaps, he is it just like 90% of the protagonists, without a real family or relationships with anyone.

8⁘ Why are different kind of people on Flipside/Flopside?

You'll see, in Flopside are many different kinds of people, descendants of the tribe of anciens/tribe of darkness, what manner of creatures they are is never made explicit, although as they are descendants of the Ancients who are confirmed to have been human, it seems likely they can be considered human as well. Almost every Flipside inhabitant has a counterpart in Flopside, with the counterpart having a vaguely opposite personality or interest. Their bodies come in yellow, purple, and blue colors, are geometric in shape, and some seem to lack visible arms. While the Flipside residents have square noses, the Flopside residents have pointed noses, and the residents of Yold Town and Gloam Valley do not have noses at all. Why? IDK. But i tried to give an explination seems in the first theory I made.

9⁘ Shadoo and Dimentio's background.

I think we all have the idea that somehow these two individuals are connected. Everyone has made out-of-this-world theories to explain this headcanon. I made myself a theory in the part of the Pixl Queen. But, today is a completely mystery.

I've noticed that I have many theories and parts... 

10⁘ Dark Prognosticus' creator.

Even in the game,we are explicitly shown that no one knows who was the creator of this mystical book. It was an ancient? It was a member with dark magic? It was a human? Nobody knows...

10⁘ What happened more than 3,000 years ago?

The timeline of the game begin 3,000 years ago, when the ancients created the pixls, but, Who were the tribe of ancients? What dimension did they from to? How did they discover magic? Where did they get the DP? 

And the most interesting thing about this is that, within the fandom, few ask this question. Interesting....

11⁘ The villains' background

Our entire source of information is Carson and his stories, and most of them are incomplete and do not tell details. And I think that, so far, the villain we know most of her story is Natasia, since it is emphasized throughout the entire game.

For others, their backstory is not extremely necessary to the story.

12⁘ What dimensions are Flipside and Flopside between?

Another intersting question, because, Merlon say us in the start of the game that Flipside is not a dimension because are BETWEEN dimension. But what dimensions are Flipside and Flopside between? Are they in two differents dimensions? One of these dimensions are the real world? Or, are they between ALL dimentions? We'd better know.

13⁘ There's more pixls? Why the original pixls doesn't talk anymore?

For the first question, maybe a few pixls managed to escape the conflicts and live scattered in other dimensions. Because, Heronicus, the person who behind Saffron's house say us, at the end of the game that he tried to find a legendary pixl, something that reinforces our theory.

And the second, The animators didn't want to work or give more prominence to Mario's partners to focus on the incredible story? Improbably. There is probably another more elaborate explanation.

14⁘ When the ancients mix with humans?

Let's remember that some humans are descendantsof those and viceversa.

(Merely filler point)

15⁘ Mimi's a robot?

And finally, the last point (I wish it were so), Mimi's a Robot? Terminator 3000?The only thing Carson explains to us are MORE theories that it could be Mimi. A witch's mistake? A failed pixl? And to top it all off, he also tells us that Mimi doesn't remember much. Dang it!

The only clue we have is that, in the sprits in the game, and when we flip to 3D and fight her ORIGINAL creepy spider form, there are traces of gears like those of a machine. If you want to theorize, go ahead.

And that's all the plot holes I've found. Surely (and sadly) there are more, so I invite you to include all the ones you remember, I'm out.

[grand-theft-carbohydrates]

very tempted to add to the type of "wine-dark* sea" discourse on ancient colour names and call blue AND green by the same name. gonna start innocuous and say things that could be ambiguously green/blue like "the sky was as clear as jade", and then clothesline unsuspecting readers with "the blue grass and trees". the best part of writing is the PVP.

**my hot take is that red wine served in a clay (opaque) vessel would just look black, so it's describing a dark, stormy sea. source: i drink wine out of teacups.

[coochiequeens]

Womens history just got richer.

When the deeply patriarchal Romans first encountered Celtic tribes living in modern-day France and Great Britain in the first century B.C.E., their reaction to the roles of the sexes was one of surprise and dismay. The tasks of men and women “have been exchanged, in a manner opposite to what obtains among us,” wrote one Roman historian.

New evidence from Celtic graves now confirms that at least one part of Britain was a woman’s world long before the Romans arrived—and for centuries afterward. One ancient British tribe known as the Durotriges based its family structure—and perhaps property inheritance—on kinship between mothers and daughters. Men, meanwhile, left home to live with their wives’ families, a practice known as matrilocality that has never been seen before in European prehistory.

The work, published today in Nature, helps explain why women in Iron Age Britain are often buried with high-status grave goods such as mirrors and even chariots, says Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich archaeologist Carola Metzner-Nebelsick, who was not involved with the research. “It’s a fantastic result,” she says. “It really helps explain the archaeological record.”

Ancient histories—not least Julius Caesar’s 50 B.C.E. account of invading Gaul—hinted at female empowerment among the Celts. “They wrote about it because they found it so weird,” says Trinity College Dublin geneticist Lara Cassidy.

Many modern historians assumed the accounts were exaggerated; they dismissed rich female graves from the time as outliers. But over the past few decades, archaeologists comparing burial practices at hundreds of Iron Age sites from Britain to Germany began to think there was a kernel of truth to the Roman reports.

The Durotriges cemeteries, located in the far south of England near the city of Bournemouth, offered a way for Cassidy and her team to investigate. Burials there began around 100 B.C.E., roughly 150 years before Roman forces invaded the island. Unusually for Iron Age Britain, the tribe didn’t cremate their dead. Instead they buried them close to home, in the hills surrounding their farmsteads.

Whereas men were laid to rest with a joint of meat and perhaps a pot containing a beverage to sustain them on their journey into the afterlife, Durotriges women are often found with elaborate offerings including mirrors, combs, jewelry, and even swords. “If you judge social status by burial goods, then female burials have vastly more than male,” says Bournemouth University archaeologist Miles Russell, a co-author of the new paper.

Over the past 4 years, researchers sequenced DNA from dozens of Durotriges skeletons in a set of cemeteries in Dorset, England. By matching identical fragments of genetic material from different individuals, they reconstructed a family tree that spanned six generations—many of whom were female descendants of a single female founder. Two-thirds of the people in the kin group buried in the cemetery shared a rare type of mitochondrial gene, a form of DNA inherited only from the mother, including some of the men who shared the same female ancestor.

Other genetic evidence from the Durotriges cemeteries pointed to matrilocality, showing that men joined the clan from other families. “Women are staying close to family and are embedded in the support network they���ve known since childhood,” Cassidy notes. “It’s the husband who’s coming in as a stranger and is dependent on the wife’s family.” Women were evidently a force to be reckoned with in this part of Iron Age Britain.

Archaeologists have found that members of Great Britain’s Durotriges tribe often buried women with more grave goods than men.Miles Russell/Bournemouth University

Such patterns could help explain finds elsewhere in the Celtic world, where women were sometimes buried with rich grave goods or even chariots. “We’re thinking this could have been quite widespread,” Cassidy says.

To gather further evidence, she and her colleagues re-examined previously published genomes from more than 150 sites in Britain and Europe stretching back to the Stone Age. Starting around 500 B.C.E., the diversity in people’s mitochondrial DNA declined, the team found, suggesting more of them shared the same female ancestors. There was no matching decline in the diversity of Y chromosomes, which are passed from fathers to sons.

That suggests communities across Britain were anchored by specific female lines, with men marrying in from outside. “The signal they see in [the Durotriges] case study can be reproduced in other British sites,” says Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology archaeogeneticist Joscha Gretzinger, who was not involved with the work. “That’s quite a smoking gun.”

The study is part of a growing use of DNA to reconstruct genetic kinship in the deep past—and use it to shed light on the structure of past societies. University of Liverpool archaeologist Rachel Pope says the research is starting to highlight the wide variety of social organization people practiced in the past, something archaeology has hinted at over the past 2 decades.

Some of the earliest kinship studies using ancient DNA, for example, showed that Stone Age farmers in Britain and France living in the fifth millennium B.C.E. were organized patrilocally, with women leaving their homes to marry while men stayed put. The new data from Durotriges suggest that by the Iron Age, 4000 years later, something had shifted. “This is quite exciting,” Pope says. “There are moments in time in which societies seem to have a lot of high female status.”

[serpentface]

There are three hyaenids found within the Imperial Wardi region- the hisippate, the highland hyena (kyniche na chennandi), and the scrub hyena (kyniche). (None are actually related to the king hyena).

The hisippate (name is close in meaning to 'stinking one', sometimes instead called '(wild) ant-dog' ('kulichin-wannaukoma')) is very distantly related to the other two. They are small, mostly solitary animals that sleep in burrows during the day and emerge to hunt at night. They are almost exclusively insectivorous, and their diet consists primarily of termites and ants that are lapped up with a long, strong tongue. The hisippate has a wide range, with their populations being highest in grassland and savanna regions with a high density of termites.

They are named for their foul smelling anal gland secretions, which are used to mark their territory and can be sprayed short distances to repel predators. Their highly visible black and white coat (which is erected in threat display) indicates them as not worth the trouble of eating. This is partly an honest advertisement of its chemical defenses, but may function as mimicry of a substantially more threatening native badger that can spray with great accuracy at distances of up to 10 feet (while the spray of the hitsippate is untargeted and only potent within a meter of the body).

The highland and scrub hyenas are the most numerous and successful predators within the region, with their populations having exploded in the past several centuries with the decline of the Wardi lion. Both live in matriarchal clan structures with strict dominance hierarchies, maintained not by individual size and strength but by highly complex networks of coalitions. All members of a clan can reproduce, and young inherit rank positions just beneath that of their mothers. Most males eventually disperse, entering into new clans at the very bottom of their hierarchy. They exhibit no obvious sexual dimorphism, and females often can only be differentiated from males by the shape of their pseudopenis.

The scrub hyena is most widely distributed and can be found throughout most of the region in a variety of lowland habitats, faring best in savannah and open grassland with high populations of grazing ungulates. This species is distinguished by well-defined spots and stripes and a sparse mane, though their coloration varies by individual and population, ranging from reddish to pale white-brown. Their clans can number upwards of a hundred individuals in the most prey-dense territories, though most are smaller.

The highland hyena is unique to the northwest of the region. As the name suggests, they have specialized into surviving in higher altitude climes, but can also be found in the remaining pockets of surrounding forest (and once had a much larger range across the former northern forests). Their spotting is often less visible than their lowland relatives, though their base coloration is similarly variable. Their clan sizes are substantially smaller than the scrub hyena, as they inhabit regions with much lower prey densities.

Both are closely related (whether they are subspecies or separate species would be subject of debate by taxonomists) and can produce viable young. Heavily hybridized populations are common where their ranges overlap. Scrub hyenas appear to breed more readily with dispersing male highland hyenas than the reverse.

Hyenas occupy an overall minor space in most of the Wardi cultural sphere. They are noted negatively as man/corpse eaters, but are generally regarded as intelligent and powerful predators and avoid the stigma attached to man-eating scavengers. In most cases they are not ascribed much significance in comparison to the venerated lion or the massive and intimidating king-hyena, mostly being relegated to a threat to livestock and potential danger to lone travelers.

Many urban areas in the province of Godsmouth (including the outer unwalled portions of the eponymous city) have unique practices of not only tolerating but actively inviting scrub hyenas into urban spaces. These urban hyena populations have been genetically semi-isolated from their wilder counterparts for several centuries. Rather than hunting large prey, they fill similar roles to feral dogs in the urban landscape as cleaners of refuse and killers of pests, and benefit from their species being culturally regarded as powerful predators rather than lowly scavengers. They notably predate on the considerably more reviled feral dogs, and keep their populations much lower than other parts of the region. Their role is regarded as both a physically and spiritually cleansing force, with their presence neutralizing polluting elements (while not being sacred in of itself).

The Godsmouth hyenas show little fear of humans compared to their wild relatives, though their activity peaks at nighttime hours to avoid close contact. They are sometimes raised from cubs to be fully tamed (though are not truly domesticated) and used as guards or to assist in hunting (Godsmouth's designated dog hunters notably have traditions of keeping hyenas). This practice is essentially exclusive to the province of Godsmouth- hyenas rarely establish semi-urban populations in other parts of the region, and those who do have considerably greater fear of humans, usually sneaking in under the cover of night to feed on scraps and fleeing from encounters.

The status of hyenas varies in the other groups native to the region. For example:

Hyenas have a generally favorable status to the Cholemdinae, who have traditionally reckoned them as highest among predators, noting their stamina and intelligence. Body parts of hyenas are ascribed the ability to increase the wearer's stamina, and amulets carved from hyena bones are often worn while persistence hunting. Children born while hyenas are heard crying are considered to be strong and very likely to survive infancy (and will often be given names referencing the animals). The apparent androgyny of hyenas is allegorically attributed to the creation story- the first beings were dual-sexed, and split into male and female halves as part of their punishment for the theft of fire from the sun. The hyena escaped this punishment by digging into the underworld to hide and getting only its once long, luxurious tail chopped off (which was sticking out from the hole).

((TANGENT: The South Wardi have more recent common cultural ancestry to the Cholemdinae than to most of the other groups assimilated into the collective Wardi nationality. The notion of hyenas once having long, flowing tails that got chopped off in some mishap still appears in South Wardi animal folktales))

They have a largely disfavorable reputation to the Hill Tribes, and are generally regarded as gluttonous and brutish in nature. The Highlands have a naturally lower density of wild ungulates, made far lower by most grazing pasture being occupied by livestock. This causes hyenas (and other large predators) to more frequently predate on domestic animals, and thus places them directly in conflict with herders (and also makes them common rabies vectors). They are readily culled when found in proximity to villages. Hyena pelts are generally considered worthless, and culled hyenas will often be fed whole to livestock guardian dogs and their pups in hopes of teaching them to be fearless towards the predators. Were-hyenas appear in folklore- among the southwestern Hill Tribes they are most commonly the accursed spirits of cannibals, while in the northeast they are malicious witches who learned secret arts of transformation and take on these forms to wreak havoc upon their enemies.

[thesilicontribesman]

Scale Model of Castle Hill Iron Age Hillfort, Almondbury, Huddersfield, Yorkshire

[hazelwhisker-designs]

Quiet Rain

[artaintfartwarriors]

Maybe either jackdaw’s cry or falling feather? I love your line art and colors they are so chef’s kiss

Thank you so much!! :3

[warriorsproject]

[the-pantry-of-art]

5. Stone Song (pl: Pieśń Skalna) & 6. Hollow Tree (pl: Drzewo Wydrążone)

I like to think that Stone Song (dotc) and Stone Song (po3) are related, perhaps he's Stone Song's father? or more likely his grandfather? And it's just another case of Legacy Naming (TM) 🤣

[marmosetpaw]

[velo-cats]

Hollow Tree

[mochilorddrakeinferno]

Well, I should note a few things here. Brooklyn has never really been where the Bros. are from in any of the games, that's always been media without Nintendo's supervision that hasn't influenced the games. They've been born in the Mushroom Kingdom and for the most part raised in Big Ape/New Donk City for decades, though. Also worth noting is that English, French, Japanese, etc. existing doesn't necessarily mean that the real-life histories of those languages apply. There is a version of Earth shown in various sports games that closely resembles our own, but as established, the Bros. are not from there, and the closeness with which it matches our world makes it very unlikely that magic and interdimensional travel existed there 3000+ years ago when it doesn't there even now. Also worth noting is that Flipside wasn't created until 1500 years ago, and Lineland is described as the "Land of the Ancients", along with being home to an extremely old settlement of theirs, which seems to imply that was their original homeland. The Ancients are broadly considered human, but in the Mario universe... human is a bit of a flexible term. They're not exactly the same kind of human as, say, Mario, that much seems evident. Perhaps related (and indeed, there is some evidence to suggest that the Tribe of Ancients may have had an influence on the dominance of humans on the Mushroom Continent and the royal family's link to the Stars), but definitely not exactly interchangeable.

New Theory!

Today... I'll post a new theory. Let me know in the comments how can I got it better!

We know (in a cannonic way) what, Mario, Luigi and peach are HUMANS, and even that Mario and Luigi are italians from Brooklyn. But, we've already know that US is not the only country in the world. And, another thing confirmed is that 3,000 years ago, the magican who created the pixls were a HUMAN.

Some way, the humans found a way to arrive at Flipside,  and to exchange knowledges and, even they learned magic. Maybe the humans learned french by the ancients and that language share it with the human world and viceversa. (That's what I talked about in the first theory I made, if you wanna check it out). Some of they could learn to use the magic of the DP (like the wizard who created the pixls)

And, perhaps, in the village that Timpani lived, the people who lived there could have a mystic connection with the tribe of Darkness. I mean, the human village was a human and ancient mixed group that leave Flipside, who separated from the ancients after disputes between them over the pixl war, find a place to live and, by the magic of the Dark Prognosticus, they could have a way to conectate with that cursed tribe. And both tribes could have a a way to be connected by what happened in the past with the ancients. That's it.

[shentheauthor]

Thinking about Ji.

Thinking about how he’s the last surviving member of his tribe.

Thinking about how any language or dialect his tribe may have had, is lost forever. Ji’s mind is not meant to remember everything. They forget, and the longer they live, the less they remember their own culture.

He loses the dances his people used to perform. They can’t recall the sound of the music they played. Clothing, food, rituals, even the kind of incense they burned. All of it is gone.

Ji hates that it was him who got the curse of immortality, but I feel like part of that is because he isn’t anything special. It could have been anyone— a poet, a scholar, someone who could better represent the culture that inevitably eroded away with time. Someone who could keep their people alive in more than a literal sense.

But instead, it’s Ji. Unambitious, unremarkable Ji whose only virtue is their immortality. Ji, who can’t play an instrument when they find an old hymn from their tribe, still intact. Ji, who can’t even remember the feeling of their own language in their mouth.

The hollow pit that forms when you forget something that should never be forgotten.