#totk storytelling confusing

[rawliverandgoronspice]

I love totk, love it with all my heart. But even I feel a bit disappointed with a lot of the aspects.

The one that gets me the most is just, the Zonai in general?

When I think back to botw, I remember all the wild and exciting theories and thoughts about what the Zonai could be.

I remember theories that they were some iteration of the Kokiri because the spiral symbols were similar, and a lot of the structures were in forests. I remember everyone being so sure that they were a warlike race because the Barbarian Set were found exclusively in the Lomei Labyrinths. Everyone was wondering what the owls, boars and dragons meant to them.

Then we actually get to see the Zonai, the big mystery of botw and there's just.

Nothing.

All we learn is: there’s 2 of them, they had advanced tech, and they had magical macguffins.

It feels so hollow knowing there was so much potential for another race to be introduced to the Zelda universe and we essentially get Sheikah 2.0 with some Mesoamerican vibes.

We don't even learn anything about them as a race, like where the rest of them went or how they were accepted so easily as rulers or why they're called "Secret Stones" when it seems like everyone knows what they are.

The only real upside to this total lack of info is that it lets people with actual creativity create headcanons and fits without having to worry about being canon compliant.

Just rings hollow.

Yeah, I absolutely feel that. I think the Zelda theorists, and I both include myself and say this with all the love in the world, tend to overhype the specificity of things that tend to remain vague in Zelda (and sometimes that vagueness is great, because it's exactly what fuels us next!), but.... I have to agree that Zonais really didn't deliver on that aspect for me either.

To be frank, I was never super into Zonai lore (because I was never super into BotW lore, but it's really on me and not at all a criticism or anything, the community and I missed each other on the hyperfocus moment), but I got super interested to see the Mesoamerican vibes going on in this game to the point where, when Nintendo dropped the Gameplay trailer and I got... honestly pretty underwhelmed (like design wise that sounded great and fun but it kind of cemented the sort of playground direction they were going with, and it got me pretty worried about other aspects, namely the story :) ), I decided to spoil myself with the leaked artbook just to give me... something to latch onto I guess? Because I really wanted to get excited! And the Mesoamerican vibes did the trick: I got super curious about what that could mean, what the Zonais would bring to the table culture-wise, what sort of cool legends involving them would be investigated, etc... Also it just wasn't a kind of setting that Zelda ever really explored (and still has not, in my humble opinion), so it kind of quieted down my worries of having a game that looked so similar to BotW in terms of artistic direction, to the point where I became afraid it wouldn't have anything different to say (which... ended up kind of being my final opinion, unfortunately).

I think the Zonais both lost a lot of their mystery while not really clarifying anything? I kind of would have loved them to remain otherwordly figures, almost? Or maybe to just have hints of a culture that would be very different to Hyrule's, instead of basically the same thing but with robots and things fly around also --I would have loved deeper implementation of Mesoamerican mythos or cultural elements, instead of it remaining.... kind of a costume, honestly? Like, what even is zonai culture, beyond the automation (which was already kind of the Sheikah's thing anyway?) Where do the stones come from? Where are the other zonais? I'm not asking for direct answers, but just enough vagueness, murals, legends, ancient spirits to set the theorists' brain on fire. The Depths would have been amazing to hint at more (and doubly so for the Sky Islands), but right now, in spite of having spoken to two different live (kind of) Zonais, I still have zero idea what their deal is. They could have been hylians and nothing would have really changed.

So, yeah! Agreed! And sorry for the late ask aaa

[blueskittlesart]

did u not like totk?

i LOVED totk. i think it was well-written and did its job as a sequel to botw very well. HOWEVER. i do think it suffered slightly from the commercial success of botw. as i mentioned in my last post, nintendo does this. thing. when one of their games gets popular where every game after it has to be Exactly The Same so they can make all the money in the world via comparison marketing. (and this is a problem with the wider game industry in general but also a very observable pattern in loz specifically.) I know it's been a pretty long time since botw came out, but before (and immediately following) its release there was some pushback from longtime fans who worried that the open-world and lack of traditional dungeons meant that the game had strayed too far from the classic formula that makes a game a "zelda game." this is to say, botw was EXPERIMENTAL. and the devs had no idea if what they were doing was going to be successful or not. the open-world of botw wasn't a gimmick, and it wasn't the devs jumping on the open-world bandwagon. it was what CREATED that bandwagon. the open-world was a deliberate choice made specifically for botw because it reinforced the story that botw was designed to tell. the game is about exploring a desolate world, about making connections, and rebuilding both the broken kingdom and the player character's shattered sense of self by traveling and learning and building relationships. a large open-world map with only minor quest guidelines and lots of collectibles and side quests lends itself perfectly to this specific story, which is specifically about exploration and rebirth.

the problem is, botw was. almost TOO good. it was so good that every other game company on the planet started scrambling to build giant open-world maps into their next release, regardless of how much sense that actually made narratively. and because of that, when it came time to release a sequel to botw, the devs had a lot to think about. they had HUGE shoes to fill in terms of fan reception, but they were ALSO being asked to follow up one of the best-performing games of all time, commercially. totk needed to SELL as well as botw. And, likely because nintendo was worried about that potential commercial value, totk needed to keep people comfortable. I don't know for certain, but I definitely get the feeling playing totk that the devs were specifically told not to stray too far from what made botw marketable and successful--that being the open world and the versatility of gameplay. so in order to follow that up, they made... 2 more huge open maps, and new gimmick gameplay which was explicitly super-versatile.

do i think that the extra maps and ultrahand were BAD choices? no. however, i don't think they necessarily ADDED anything to the game as a narrative whole. one of my favorite things about botw was how everything seemed to be designed AROUND the narrative, with gameplay elements slotting neatly into the story thematically. totk just. didn't really have that, imo. there wasn't a huge narrative benefit to the gigantic, completely unpopulated depths and sky maps. ultrahand was cool, but within the context of the story it meant basically nothing. in some ways, i almost think totk could have benefitted from a much more linear approach to its storytelling, a la skyward sword, because there are a lot of story beats that have to be found in chronological order in order to have the right emotional impact, but because of the nonlinear open-world it kind of became a struggle to hit all the important story points in the right order. an easy example of this is the dragon's tears in comparison to the memories--the dragon tears have a very specific set order in which they happen, and finding them out of order can make the story you're seeing in them feel confusing and disjointed. the order in which they should be found is technically displayed on the temple wall, but most players aren't going to pick up on that or follow it--more likely, they're just going to explore the geoglyphs as they come across them organically, and therefore will likely witness the story in a completely disjointed way. compare this to the botw memories, which ALSO technically have a set order--the order in which they're displayed on the sheikah slate. however, because they're largely just small moments in time, and not one continuous story, finding them out of order has a lot less of an impact on how you as the player experience the narrative, and it's not hugely detrimental to your experience of the story if you find them naturally as you explore rather than explicitly seeking them out in order. If TOTK had been allowed to deviate from the botw formula a bit, i think we may have ended up with a more cohesive game in terms of narrative beats like that. as it is, i just think the game is torn slightly between wanting to be its own new game with new gameplay and needing to be botw, if that makes sense.

[weirdmageddon]

aspects and platonic realism in homestuck

i was thinking about this video again and man. i dont think people consider the aspects enough in terms of the fact that they are fundamental building blocks of the homestuck reality in the way that periodic elements and physics are to us. or even closer to what classical elements were to ancient greeks (hero of fire / hero of water / hero of aether). we see aspects not directly. we see objects directly but these objects are created from the influence of aspects.

some tangible things are closer to the “essence” of what falls into an aspect’s domain to define it. like a gust of wind or a breeze is a physical analogy for the aspect of breath. in homestuck’s reality, how breath manifests itself in a metanarrative sense is representing a functional plot-driven story. john’s liking for fast-paced action movies and worldbuilding with very little emphasis on relationships and characters. the beginning of homestuck in itself embodies much of the breath aspect in a narrative sense. the trolls are influenced by the blood aspect since their plot is moved by relationships, dramas, interpersonal dynamics rather than a primarily detached functional-driven plot like acts 1-4. from a metanarrative take, along with blood, breath represents how the author intends to tell or convey the story, if they choose elements that emphasize the detached (breath) or elements emphasizing connection (blood). the perpendicular axis to breath-blood is space-time, which metanarratively represents the setting and the events in the story. but these metanarrative manifestations of the aspects are just another imperfect angle to view their platonic essence in. each aspect dichotomy is like a different lens of thinking about reality through.

media tends to have some aspect dichotomy focus it thematically revolves around above all else. of course every media contains elements of all aspects. for example every narrative must have setting and events, which is why space and time are absolutely necessary.

the legend of zelda: breath of the wild and tears of the kingdom pull a lot of themes from the breath/blood dichotomy overall, and secondarily space and time. botw has story, gameplay, and themes drawing heavily from breath and space. totk in contrast has story, gameplay, and themes drawing heavily from blood and time.

gravity falls focuses heavily through the light/void dichotomy lens. with plot points all focusing heavily around knowledge and secrets, relevance and irrelevance. shining a light in a dark space, symbolism, clarity, and meaninglessness, confusion, obscuring truth (bill, society of the blind eye). even though all aspect dichotomies show up in all media recursively at metaphysical levels, breath and blood aren’t as dominant overall in gravity falls as it is for the latter i mentioned

“in the furthest ring, platonic forms are real. they are the base classes that paradox space builds reality out of. whereas modern physics breaks down reality into the physically irreducible, homestuck breaks down reality into what rose calls the “notionally irreducible”. and just as fundamental particles are to the periodic table of elements, aspects are to this system’s irreducible forms. the 12 aspects are the building blocks of thought, and where we, in our universe, might make a distinction between thought and reality, paradox space doesn’t seem very concerned. as we’ll see, homestuck wants us to convince us that our thoughts create the world around us, and the aspect system is just another way to work towards that goal.

in a traditional rpg, classes are about specialization and tools at your disposal. in zelda games, titles/classes such as “hero of time” or “hero of wind” is less as a specialization but more of a prophecy. it has no bearing on any quality of the game’s mechanics but instead is being used as a tool for the narrative. and it works; there’s a reason that cryptic prophecies are so widely used in storytelling. they foreshadow the rest of the story without giving it away and they give the reader/viewer/player a framework from which they can continuously place the story and its unfolding into perspective. in a zelda game, it’s even more effective because it is framing the player’s own actions making them feel like they’re a part of something bigger than themselves. in addition, it can be interpreted by the player as a challenge to them personally so that, in overcoming the challenge presented to them, they feel a sense of personal satisfaction at living up to the role. it’s one of many, many qualities that make zelda games feel epic and timeless.

homestuck, being a traditional narrative which involves a multiplayer game is able to take the best qualities of both the class system in an rpg and the titles of a zelda game and use those to create the class and aspect system.

characters playing the game are seemingly assigned a title just like in zelda. in fact, they sound identical to zelda. one might find themselves refered to as the “hero of doom” or a “hero of void”. like a zelda game, these describe the tools that the players will use to live up to their prophecized roles, except the tools in this sense are aspects.”

(Aspects and Platonic Realism in Homestuck)

that is, the tools in this sense are the fundamental building blocks of reality.

when a player is assigned an aspect, one even as abstract as “rage”, they are being assigned to be a servant of a fundamental property, force, or matter of reality. maid of rage (serving the platonic fundamental property of rage) would in our world be like, equivalent to a servant of electromagnetism. except with homestuck these are platonic forces

[ezlo-x]

I think Zelda games have always had this balance of storytelling and gameplay it always confused me when ppl said “Zelda is more about gameplay” which sure but I think it means that there is always a gimmick that makes the game. The story rlly is there to keep you engaged with not only the gameplay but also yknow the story. Some of Skyward Swords dungeons were a bit of a drag to me but I was already hooked on the story that I wanted to see what happened next. So I persisted to the very end of the game and had fun and engaged on a fun story. (Do i got issues w sksw lore yes but that’s a story for another day)

Here comes TotK, its fascinating how I was able to record my live reaction through posts on here. From Wind to Fire temple and the first three dragon tears i was engaged on what was happening. That was until I reached that one dragon tear where everything just fell apart for me. And I sighed i was like “no this game is fun and I’m going to continue on playing,” but then it slowly felt like a drag to me to continue. Things started to feel less fun to engage with. My friends insisted to get dragon tear memories from 6-8 so I dragged my feet to the locations they were at and boy. Did I completely lost all motivation to continue playing. At this point I was just sad that this is how it was going I immediately knew where the story was going. The gameplay could only do so much to keep me going when I could be replaying botw for the 5th time.

That’s why I believe that tloz games especially post-oot games have a balance with story and gameplay

[grooviestsadpapaya]

i went down a rabbit hole of your au like a month ago and I still have brainrot from it like holy crap man I think about it everyday I literally start kicking my legs whenever I see an update why am i like this

but anyways, the various species in your au have caught my interest for a while. Since I’m assuming this takes place somewhere after totk I’m wondering how the other races have come back into play (like the zonai, twili, etc)

also is bestir actually a reincarnation of demise in this au or did he just coincidentally end up with the triforce of power?

luckily for you I am also starved of human interaction :)

First of all aw :] tanks <3333

I’m glad you like my little guys! The Twili live in the depths of Hyrule, supersuper deep underground, alongside the Shadows and some weird flora and fauna. Zant rules over them, using the brutality of the Shadows to act as like a uhhh. Really shitty law enforcement system. They typically get to around 13 ft tall and 115 lbs on average (they are super light). They can communicate in secrecy via the intensity and rhythmic flashing of their bioluminescence. Kinda like uhh if you’ve read Wings of Fire they’re like Seawings. They have a similar lifespan to Zoras, if not longer. Here’s a sketch if you don’t know what they look like, I don’t post about them a lot. They usually have livestock and live vegetarian lifestyles due to frequent food shortages. The way they got into the depths (I refer to them as the Chasms in soh, jsyk) is a spoiler so :] I cry everytime

So the Zonai are a bit spoiler-y if I talk about them too much but they are like. The opposite of the Twili. They are very technologically sophisticated and independent but not very agriculturally advanced and live in the sky. Instead of fearing Kargaroks like the people of the surface do, they worship them. They live alongside the ooccoo. Yeah, the tiddy birds. I gotta design them too. Damn.

The Kokiri and Koroks live alongside one another, the Kokiri acting more like guardians of the forest rather than peaceful inhabitants. They look hella scary but are generally kindhearted and pure. They are… also spoilery.

And yes Bestir is an incarnation of Ganondorf! Instead of falling into the divine influence of Demise, he favors Din because that’s just what his moms taught him. Idk it’s confusing I’m not great at storytelling

[mathmusiczelda]

Legend of Zelda Fic and Comic Recs

Guess I've read enough fics and comics to do one of these now

(General warning for strong language and canon-typical violence)

Comics

- @linkeduniverse (LU), a fandom classic, excellent art, intriguing story

- @ovegakart's stuff is awesome--there are several ongoing series and lots of LU references

- @bonus-links, a Links meet AU, lovely art, I'm interested to see where it goes

- TOTK "Eternal" by @/blueskittlesart, two-shot, very pretty and poetic

- Time Twilight Tears by @/jhoca-art, non-LU comic where Time and Twilight follow Wild/Tears around during TOTK, also featuring all their Zeldas. Very fun, very pretty art

Fics

Uncategorized fics:

- Dimensional Links by ChangelingRin. A Links meet AU that isn't Linked Universe. Very fun and chaotic

Twilight Princess fics:

- Dear Hero by @/thecagedsong. A post-canon Twilight Princess rom-com that's not only hilarious but insightful, packed with lore, and has excellent characterizations. I'm not usually into rom coms but this one was fantastic

- Wolf Boy by Bookwrm389. A pre-canon Twilight Princess fic where an orphaned Link comes to find and trust Rusl and Uli, told feom Uli's perspective. Very well written, lovely and soft

- A Tale Past Twilight: Forked Tongues by GrayGuard06. A post-canon Twilight Princess fic where Link goes to help a village with a monster problem and walks into a whole can of worms. Note the violence tag, but it's got plot and a good ending

Breath of the Wild fics:

- The Girl at the Museum by wavebreeze. Modern AU, sort of a meet-cute, short and sweet. I don't usually go for these but it was surprisingly fun

- Feast by webcomix. Tw grief but super cute/heartwarming way for Link and Zelda to meet as kids

- Hold Your Destiny by webcomix. Long fic, basically a novelization of pre-calamity BOTW, loved the characterization (sequel is LU-related)

- A Hero's Spirit by SilvermistAnimeLover. Long fic, Link basically dies defeating Calamity but his spirit gets stuck in a limbo state so he's still able to help Hyrule start recovering from 100 years of destruction (sequel is LU-related)

Linked Universe (LU) Related fics:

- all of @/zolanort/Cullhach's fics are delightful

- Willow Bark and Chamomile by schrodingers__cat. The Chain gets separated and confused. Legend has never been more prepared for anything in his life

- Rain and Mountain Climbing Don't Mix by Isti-Tanu. A fun little one-shot of Wild being wild and everyone reacting as expected

- Whistling on Deaf Ears by CrimsonRavioli. A hurt/comfort fic (heavier on hurt but has a happy ending) where Twilight's sensitive hearing works against him

- Running with the Wolves by alternatemind. The Chain wonders if Wolfie is lonely and decide to do something about it. Light angst, mostly fluff

- Dog Days AU series by alternatemind. Twilight-centric AU where Twilight gets stuck as a wolf just before he meets the Chain. Hilarity ensues

- The More Things Change series by Iffondrel. The Chain compares and contrasts references to their own worlds while they explore Wild's Hyrule, includes TOTK content

- Language Barriers by Kastaborous. The Chain meets Wild fic where the 10,000 year gap between other heroes is acknowledged through language drift. Interesting and entertaining read

- A Home for Flowers by faufaren. The Chain meets Elderitch!Wild. Charming characterization and storytelling

- What Hero? by AimeeLouWrites. (tw gaslighting) The Chain meets Wild fic where Wild thinks they're Yiga and pretends that there is no hero, and then never quite really decides to tell them when the game is over. Borderline crackfic, very fun read

- Child's Play by AimeeLouWrites. The Chain meets Wild fic, de-aged Wild and Flora meet the Chain and decide to be as confusing as possible

- Level One by LightBlueScrubs. Linked Universe Hospital AU where everyone (except Wild) is a doctor working in a trauma unit (where Wild is the patient). First couple chapters are a bit squeamish due to being very medically realistic, but a great fic overall

[xx-ingie-xx]

I'm so glad you're back! I was afraid something bad happened and I'm relieved to find out that it wasn't the case. A few months have passed since the release of TOTK, so the hype has went down and now I would like to read your opinion of the game. What are your favorite parts about it, what are the things you disliked and how would you rank this game with the rest of the 3D Zelda games?

Aw, thank you! Yeah, I'm sorry I post so infrequently. I'm hoping that will change once I start working on the Fortitude revision again. Finishing Forgotten has been such an uphill project for me. But I'll be so glad I didn't leave it unfinished.

My thoughts and opinions about TotK are below (emphasis on my opinions--I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and that's ok!).

Three things I enjoyed:

THE MUSIC. The soundtrack is amazing, especially the growing dynamics as you progress in certain areas. It has a psychological effect, and I found it really intense in the best way.

THE TEMPLES. I was very happy to see a return to more traditional Zelda dungeons. WAY more fun than the divine beasts, and I liked having the sages assist! Gave me TWW vibes.

Better NPCs and sidequests. Maybe it's just me, but it felt like the Zelda team put some extra love into creating the NPCs and all the quests that come with them. I've had more fun with them than I did in BotW - which had way too many simple fetch quests.

Three things that didn't do much for me:

The Zonai tech. It's fun to use, and I do appreciate how utterly amazing the development/coding is, especially considering the Switch's hardware limitations. However, I would be very tired of Ultrahand by now if not for the Autobuild ability, and even then my interest is mild at best. Also, it did not feel "Zelda-ish" to me. I don't think driving cars or shooting rockets belongs in a Zelda game. In fact I ignored the Zonai tech whenever possible. I would often walk instead of building a car, simply because it felt more "Zelda-ish" to do so.

Mediocre voice acting. I'm relieved to say Ganondorf was fairly good. The rest not so much. If Nintendo isn't willing to hire more expensive more esteemed VAs for a flagship franchise like Zelda, I'd rather they didn't do it at all.

Zelda's story. Don't get me wrong, I was very glad to see her play a stronger, amazingly brave and selfless character. The thing I'm not happy about is that she was once again separated from Link throughout the entire game. Is it really too much to ask that they work together side by side? *sigh*

Three things I strongly disliked: (warning: ranting ahead)

EMOTIONLESS LINK. I cannot express how much I hate this. Even if I put aside my love for Link as a character and my wish for him to express himself, I still think this blank-faced avatar approach is awful. It does not allow me to see myself as Link (which I believe was their intent) because I have feelings and he doesn't, seemingly. If anything, it had the opposite effect. I found It distracting and cringey and infuriating to watch Link react to everything with determination, confusion, or that stupid blank expression. There are some emotionally charged scenes in this game, and they fall very flat because of Link. At least, they did for me. UGH.

Non-linear storytelling. It's highly restrictive, disjointed, and the impact depends on the order in which players obtain certain cutscenes. Please, Nintendo, no more.

The Zonai. I'm not a fan of most furry character designs, and Rauru is particularly strange, so it was immediately off-putting to me. I also strongly dislike the idea of them founding Hyrule and being "like gods" to Hylians. It's all very vague, and I don't understand how any of it works with past Zelda lore, especially when Hylia is so important in BotW. It's like they scrapped everything sacred in Zelda lore (the golden goddesses, Hylia, etc.), and replaced it with the Zonai. Meh, I'll stick with the old lore, thanks.

Also, a furry being married to a Hylian is also very off-putting to me. I don't know how that works, I don't want to find out, and I have no interest in learning more about Rauru or Sonia. Their fates had zero emotional impact on me, so I didn't get much out of that part of the storyline.

I could go on, but I'll stop there.

As far as rankings, I would place TotK with BotW because they are very similar. Here's how I rank the 3D Zelda games:

OoT/MM

BotW/TotK

TWW

SS

TP

So yeah, didn't love it, didn't hate it. Like with BotW, I'm very frustrated by all the untapped potential. As an avid Zelinker, I see the entire arc of BotW and TotK as an epic story of love, loss, bravery, and sacrifice. Link and Zelda both mirror and complement each other in so many ways, and I love the creative potential in that.

I also love the limitless exploration in both games - it keeps me interested for hours. But when the next Zelda game is revealed, I'd like to see a new formula, preferably a more classic one.

[mathmusic8]

Legend of Zelda Fic and Comic Recs

Guess I've read enough fics and comics to do one of these now

(General warning for strong language and canon-typical violence)

Comics

- @linkeduniverse (LU), a fandom classic, excellent art, intriguing story

- @ovegakart's stuff is awesome--there are several ongoing series and lots of LU references

- @bonus-links, a Links meet AU, lovely art, I'm interested to see where it goes

- TOTK "Eternal" by @blueskittlesart, two-shot, very pretty and poetic

Fics

Uncategorized fics:

- Dimensional Links by ChangelingRin. A Links meet AU that isn't Linked Universe. Very fun and chaotic

Twilight Princess fics:

- Dear Hero by @\thecagedsong. A post-canon Twilight Princess rom-com that's not only hilarious but insightful, packed with lore, and has excellent characterizations. I'm not usually into rom coms but this one was fantastic

- A Tale Past Twilight: Forked Tongues by GrayGuard06. A post-canon Twilight Princess fic where Link goes to help a village with a monster problem and walks into a whole can of worms. Note the violence tag, but it's got plot and a good ending

Breath of the Wild fics:

- The Girl at the Museum by wavebreeze. Modern AU, sort of a meet-cute, short and sweet. I don't usually go for these but it was surprisingly fun

- Feast by webcomix. Tw grief but super cute/heartwarming way for Link and Zelda to meet as kids

- Hold Your Destiny by webcomix. Long fic, basically a novelization of pre-calamity BOTW, loved the characterization (sequel is LU-related)

- A Hero's Spirit by SilvermistAnimeLover. Long fic, Link basically dies defeating Calamity but his spirit gets stuck in a limbo state so he's still able to help Hyrule start recovering from 100 years of destruction (sequel is LU-related)

Linked Universe (LU) Related fics:

- all of @zolanort/Cullhach's fics are delightful

- Willow Bark and Chamomile by schrodingers__cat. The Chain gets separated and confused. Legend has never been more prepared for anything in his life

- Rain and Mountain Climbing Don't Mix by Isti-Tanu. A fun little one-shot of Wild being wild and everyone reacting as expected

- Whistling on Deaf Ears by CrimsonRavioli. A hurt/comfort fic (heavier on hurt but has a happy ending) where Twilight's sensitive hearing works against him

- Running with the Wolves by alternatemind. The Chain wonders if Wolfie is lonely and decide to do something about it. Light angst, mostly fluff

- Dog Days AU series by alternatemind. Twilight-centric AU where Twilight gets stuck as a wolf just before he meets the Chain. Hilarity ensues

- The More Things Change series by Iffondrel. The Chain compares and contrasts references to their own worlds while they explore Wild's Hyrule, includes TOTK content

- Language Barriers by Kastaborous. The Chain meets Wild fic where the 10,000 year gap between other heroes is acknowledged through language drift. Interesting and entertaining read

- A Home for Flowers by faufaren. The Chain meets Elderitch!Wild. Charming characterization and storytelling

- What Hero? by AimeeLouWrites. (tw gaslighting) The Chain meets Wild fic where Wild thinks they're Yiga and pretends that there is no hero, and then never quite really decides to tell them when the game is over. Borderline crackfic, very fun read

- Child's Play by AimeeLouWrites. The Chain meets Wild fic, de-aged Wild and Flora meet the Chain and decide to be as confusing as possible

- Level One by LightBlueScrubs. Linked Universe Hospital AU where everyone (except Wild) is a doctor working in a trauma unit (where Wild is the patient). First couple chapters are a bit squeamish due to being very medically realistic, but a great fic overall

[fire-plays-totk]

Not sure if it's just something I dislike from a storytelling perspective or if it's just something I find deeply tragic about TOTK, but isn't it fucked how the same misfortunes tend to follow Link and Zelda? TOTK Link is gravely injured and gets stuck in a stasis to heal him before he wakes up weakened and confused, with the weight of the world on his shoulders again. TOTK Zelda is stuck trying to figure out some way to help and ultimately comes to the conclusion she must sacrifice herself. Like we've done this before??

Except in BOTW everything feels like a direct consequence of the reincarnation cycle. How Link was forced into knighthood as a child and how Zelda is expected to harness her sealing power only because of her bloodline. Hell, even how Ganon has warped into this terrifying force of nature and lost any shred of humanity. Everything is a result of thousands of years of the same song and dance over the triforce and it directly impacts these three characters arguably much more than their predecessors. So I guess it's a little lame that TOTK's reason for all the same things happening again is kinda just "Shit sucks I guess. Boom. Time travel."

[vampire-wizard-solidarity]

hope you wouldn’t mind me adding onto your post because i’ve been thinking about the way totk implements geoglyphs from a game design standpoint pretty much from the day they came out.

in botw, memories are designed in a way to inherently reward exploration. they are a little in-built geoguesser exercise, finding them relies on your knowledge of the world. interacting with them at first can lead to one of two experiences: 1. you haven’t yet explored the area where the memory is, and you’re both confused but intrigued as to where it could be – most memory photographs also show off landmarks, such as the castle, the bridge over lake hylia, the bazaar etc, it makes them both easier to find and fills you with excitement and finding these pretty places. it encourages you to go out and explore and find the landmarks pictured. 2. you have explored the areas the photos depict, and your knowledge of the game world is rewarded by being able to go there and claim your memory. it’s also generally satisfying to look at a memory picture and go “hey i know where that is”, it encourages you to interact with the world not just as a collection of story important locations, but rather a vast wilderness in which even the seemingly inconsequential little bits of land can hide secrets, treasures etc.

the geoglyphs, however? they are huge and can be spotted miles away. they don’t really encourage thorough exploration because they’re RIGHT there. if you simply go into the region where a geoglyph is it’s pretty much guaranteed you’d find it, if not simply by looking around for five seconds, then definitely by unlocking the tower and looking over the region. it encourages minimal exploration, if anything, due to just how huge and easy to spot geoglyphs are. and if that’s not bad enough, the quest that actually explains what geoglyphs are to you leads you to a literal map with the locations of each glyph. like, okay, for some fucking reason the devs thought that i might struggle finding the giant glowing picture of a castle on a side of the mountain, and gave me a map guiding me to it. why? why is even any semblance of exploration or work scrubbed from the process?

i’ve struggled to come up with the answer at first, but now it seems pretty clear to me: they just didn’t find a way to make linear storytelling work in a system designed to encourage exploration.

botw’s memories are non-linear by design. you can judge whether that choice works for botw’s story or not, but at least it’s clearly a deliberate choice. in botw, you will not unlock all the memories at once. every memory is a little vignette into the world pre-calamity, and it doesn’t actually explore any plot. the plot is known to you from the very beginning: calamity came, possessed the tech, caused an apocalypse. this is knowledge that you are required to be told before you even can get the memory quest. the memories don’t answer the question what, i.e. what happened, they answer the question why, i.e. why it happened. they don’t explore any plot because you already know the entire plot, they instead explore character, they are fundamentally a character study into zelda. as such, they are designed just like any other element of the game: with the ability for you to get bored, leave it, and come back later. because each memory is a vignette, you don’t need to see them all at once, and as such their gameplay element is also more engaging: they don’t have to worry that the next memory you want to unlock would be too hard, or too tedious for you, so you leave it to come back to later. this is just part of their design, just like with the shrines, or the side quests, or any other element of the game.

totk, however? it tells you a linear story with plot points and a progression of events. it’s not designed to be able to be consumed in small semi-self contained chunks that come together into a whole later. if you do a part of the story and leave the rest for later, you might come back and not remember an important plot point offhandedly stated five memories ago! non-linearity already complicates the story enough, if you leave to do other things between the glyphs you’ll only get more confused. a linear story told non-linearly may fail, but if you watch it all at once at least the information will be fresh enough in your mind to put the pieces together post fact. totk geoglyphs don’t encourage exploration, because it goes against the story experience they want you to have. that’s why it gives you a map, that’s why it sheepishly proposes a story order without fully explaining it, because it took a system from botw, and tried to tell a story that fundamentally didn’t work within that system. and, well, they can’t stray too far from the structure of botw, be it because they’re lazy, or because they feel confined by the nature of totk as a sequel, or simply because linearity in a sequel to botw would make a lot of botw fans mad, either way the answer as to why geoglyphs are Like That is pretty clear: they want you to consume the story all at once, to lead to minimal confusion, that’s why the geoglyphs are so piss easy to find. they want to tell a linear story with stuff that works in linear stories, like plot twists and rising stakes, but they have no idea how to adapt a linear story into a medium in which the player experiences that story non-linearly, so they keep the cutscenes the way they are, and as damage control encourage the players to experience the story at once, by making it very easy to do, so that even if they can’t experience the story properly, they’ll at least have all the information about the plot figured out. they took botw’s frameworks and tried to shoehorn in linear elements without actually knowing how to gracefully marry the two, and made a weird amalgamation at the expense of both elements.

and that’s why most people who experience the story will probably know sonia dies before they find the memory where she actually does, but the story still treats it as a high stakes plot twist and moment of surprise and tragedy. that’s why it seems like the game doesn’t actually reward you for exploration when it comes to the story. that’s why the main story is not all that emotionally impactful despite supposedly being more epic and high stakes than botw was.

to conclude with a little tangent: this is one of the reasons why i find the hateno mayoral election side quest so laughable. it concludes with the message of “maybe both new and old can combine in order to make our town even better!” and it’s almost obnoxiously obvious in the meta-commentary on totk as a game, but what’s funny about this meta-commentary is that totk as a game doesn’t actually show me how a combination of new and old makes it better. if anything, i was much more optimistic towards the idea before totk came out, and then the game showed me how both elements cheapen each other and bring out the worst of both when combined in such a clumsy and haphazard manner. the moral of the hateno election shouldn’t have been “new and old are better combined”, it should’ve been “we should kill the artistic hubris that makes us hyperfixate exclusively on unused ideas and feedback from our previous project because such an obsession leads to garbage like this”

Reusing the memory system from botw for the tears of the dragon storyline in totk was such a terrible decision on so many different levels that it’s honestly kind of impressive.

While the botw memory system had flaws of its own, there was one small but significant thing that worked in its favour: botw’s memories were largely separate from the main plot in the past, and have absolutely no bearing on the story being told in the present. Aside from a few specific instances (ie the calamity striking, the ceremony, Link and Zelda becoming closer) the memories are all self-contained moments that emphasize character development over driving the story. Because there’s no major narrative throughline between them, it gives players more freedom to discover in any order regardless of how much they’ve progressed through the main quest without running the risk of stumbling across a memory that ruins something else later on in the game.

(This got long so the rest of my analysis is going under the cut.)

The biggest change between the memories from botw and the dragon’s tears from totk is definitely what kind of information these cutscenes relay to you as the player. Botw’s memories are primarily snapshots of small interpersonal moments that hold very little significance to the greater narrative taking place in the past. Totk’s memories are the greater narrative. With only one major exception -that I’ll touch on in a sec-, every cutscene in the dragon’s tears shows a crucial moment of story development with no time left to explore the characters driving that story forwards. There’s no organic moment revealing, say, a quirk of Rauru’s that Mineru finds annoying, or Sonia’s sense of humour, or any of our literal Main Villain Ganondorf’s motivations for going to war with Hyrule. If there’s any moments of character focus they only happen in ways that advance the plot (meaning the only real character focus is on the characters totk wants the entire universe to orbit around, namely Rauru and Zelda), and as such it’s harder to bring myself to care about what happens to anyone.

To illustrate the point I’m trying to make here, compare the memories of the champions Link regains during the divine beast quests to the conversations with the ancient sages at the end of each temple. The memories make passing mentions of the ongoing preparations for the calamity, but the real purpose of those scenes is showcasing who the champions were as people before their deaths and give us a reason to mourn them even though we know at the start of our journey that they’re all long gone. In contrast, the conversations with the ancient sages are all about the events of the imprisoning war and their promise to Zelda that their descendants will come to Link’s aid in the future, very obviously copy pasted for each of the five times that cutscene is brought up (which is a particularly egregious moment of bad quest design but that’s a rant for another time) in such a way that none of the 5 incarnations of that cutscene revealing anything new about the ancient sages as people to the point where none of them even show their faces. I care about Daruk because the game shows me that he cares deeply about the wellbeing of his fellow champions and brings out the best in others. Why the fuck should I care about the nameless, faceless sage of water? What’s there to move me about their struggles if my only interactions with the sages are a series of exposition dumps? If the game can’t give me a reason to sincerely care about its main characters, the whole rest of the story is meaningless.

(As an aside, I get the feeling someone on the dev team caught on to the issue I’m describing here, because the tea party memory sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the dragon tear cutscenes. It’s such a jarring change of pace to have the otherwise plot-stuffed dragon’s tears come to a screeching halt for a scene where Sonia sits down with Zelda to have a cute little tea party and talk about absolutely nothing of significance that the whole thing almost feels like it was hastily tacked on to the story later. Given that the next (chronological) memory sees Sonia fall victim to an unceremonious death by chiropractor, it almost feels like someone realized that Sonia really doesn’t do or say much in the scenes before she dies and threw together the tea party scene so players would have at least one moment to look back on fondly when she’s fridged. But I digress)

The story told in the dragon’s tears is a highly linear one. But the open-ended nature of botw’s memory system remains, meaning that these tears can be found and viewed in any order. At first this doesn’t seem so bad, since the first two tears you’re likely to find if you follow the game’s intended path are also the chronological first and second of the memories you can discover through these geoglyph tears. But after those first two, the game kinda gives up on guiding you towards these tears in a way that flows well with the story they wrote: the closest tear on the map to the two the game initially guides you towards correlates to one of the penultimate scenes of that entire storyline, while the next scene chronologically is found almost halfway across the map. As such, it’s all but guaranteed that you’ll spoil yourself in some way without using either a guide or the (somewhat unintuitive and never fully explained by the game) little map in the forgotten temple. Finding memories in order didn’t matter so much in botw because the scenes you could find still worked well as standalone scenes before you discovered every memory and pieced together the full picture, and the game is never trying to surprise me about the characters’ fates at the end of this storyline: hell the first memory you’re guided to shows the calamity striking. But in contrast, viewing a dragon’s tear at the wrong time can completely ruin the story they’re trying to tell in those cutscenes. During my playthrough, for example, the first tear I found after the game stopped guiding me to them showed Ganondorf removing Sonia’s stone from her dead body. At this point I had known Sonia existed for all of like an hour, so every subsequent appearance she made was ruined for me by the fact that I already knew she was nothing but cannon fodder to be killed off for the sake of another character’s pain (Rauru and Zelda a-fucking-gain). I expected to be pissed that it was so easy to spoil myself, or maybe sad in passing that a character with her potential was so underutilized, but instead I just felt… tired. I wasn’t even halfway to the first settlement and already I was completely numb to the story the game was trying to tell.

But the worst was yet to come. And oh boy was it ever a low point for storytelling in the Zelda series. Remember how I said up above that the memories in botw had no connection to the story in the present? Let’s just say the same cannot be said for the dragon’s tears.

It’s May 2023. I’ve just finished the sage of wind questline. I still have hope that the story the game is trying to tell will be good. Deciding that I’ll go to Goron city next, I head towards the Thyplo skyview tower to expand my map, catch a glimpse of a nearby geoglyph from the air, and glide over to check it out. This geoglyph shows me a memory that not only recaps the entire dragon tear storyline, but also ends on a bit of foreshadowing about Zelda’s fate that’s about as subtle as a brick to the fucking face. By exploring -the thing the game claims it prioritized above all else in the design of its world and quests- I’d once again been hit with spoilers for a major story detail.

My main objective in this game is to find Zelda. It’s the only driving factor behind my journey towards all these different regions. The current big mystery I’m supposed to solve is why Zelda’s causing so much hell for the people of Hyrule. I now knew exactly where she was and what the deal with her appearances in other parts of Hyrule was, and I’d found it completely by accident by doing something the game says over and over again that it wants me to do. Unlike with Sonia’s death, this time I was a mess of emotions. I was pissed the fuck off that this open-world game had punished me twice already for trying to explore. More than that, I was disappointed that a game I had been so excited to play, from a series I had so many fond memories of, had let me down like this. With every subsequent quest where the sages and I chased a Zelda I knew was fake to our next objective, and every NPC wondering where she was that I couldn’t tell the truth to, that disappointment grew. The entire rest of the main story was ruined for me before I had progressed past 1/4th of the regional quests and a third of the dragon’s tears. There was no more sense of anticipation or mystery. I finished the rest of the game with a bitter taste in my mouth and haven’t touched it again since.

Do I think this story could have been good? Honestly, I don’t know, and by now I don’t really care either (that’s a lie. I care so so much and that’s probably why I hate totk as much as I do). But it’s all irrelevant, because like Cinderella’s stepsister cutting off her own heel so she can cram her foot into a glass slipper that’s never going to fit, totk is sabotaged by the devs’ insistence that everything fit itself into a world they custom-made for botw. This isn’t a new formula that the series is following, it’s Nintendo slapping a new coat of paint on an existing skeleton, and I’m not optimistic to see what this particular approach has in store for the Zelda series. Especially not at the price they’re charging for it.

[prankprincess123]

I think maybe this combination of powers, so early in Hyrule's history, is part of why over the generations the understanding of how the Princess' powers work gets so clouded. Because it is Hylia, it is the soul of a goddess in the Princess that gives Zelda her powers. But it is also the ancestral magic from both Sonia & Rauru in the Royal line that gives all it's princesses powers. And then there's the third aspect not touched on here (as it plays minimal if any role in BotW/TotK) of Nayru's part of the triforce being bestowed on the Royal family, and bringing with it both divine wisdom and some of Nayru's powers.

We have the powers of not just one but two goddesses, and ancestral magic (from multiple sources) and holy incarnations, and divine blessings, and matrilineal royal inheritance, and religious traditions that spring up. Not to mention the frequent deaths of Hyrule's queens before they can teach their daughters, and the generations like Tetra who just never learned what was going on at all.

And the other races have their stories, but only the Gorons and Sheikah have been around since the beginning, and they've had their own worries and struggles shape the stories they pass on. And the Sheikah have always had a devotion to Hylia and the line of Zeldas specifically that has made them the best resource for this kind of information, but they've been exiled and nearly wiped out so many times that their stories are also lost and jumbled. And the forest spirits probably know something, but so few people can see them, and even Link barely talks to them in this life. And Fi's been there for almost everything regarding Link and Zelda, well except for some of the lifetimes when the Four Sword was used instead, but she's not talking to anyone right now.

And can we really blame Zelda for just being absolutely confused as heck regarding how her powers work?

Her powers come from so many sources at once, and the line of storytelling - both oral and written - has been broken by deaths and apocalypses so many times, and the new story doesn't match anything of what it was two generations ago, and does BotW/TotK Zelda even know about the triforce's existence?

Zelda is quite rightfully lost. Because if her power is a gift from Hylia and/or Nayru, and she comes from a line of priestess-princesses, it tracks that praying to the goddesses should help, and she must just not be praying hard enough. But if it's a magical inheritance based on a matrilineal royal birthright and divine right to rule, then she should just have the abilities without needing to do anything, and something must be wrong with her that she doesn't. And none of the theories based on what she knows account for anything involving reincarnation or the triforce or magic inherited from male ancestors at all.

And honestly, if she were allowed to pick up a sword of any type (a knight's sword like SS, or a rapier like in TP & HW, or a cutlass like Tetra) or take magic-ninja lessons from Impa in this life, or wield a bow like she has used her powers with in so many lifetimes, or just experiment with robots and frogs like she wants to, Zelda probably would have figured out at least part of her powers way sooner. After all, Age of Calamity only happens because Zelda subconsciously imbued some of her time magic in a little robot she built as a child.

And hopefully, at some point during their near eternity alone in the sky, Fi was able to clear everything up for Zelda, because this girl deserves at least some clarity...

so, it’s confirmed that Zelda’s “Time” powers came from Sonia, and her “Light” powers from Rauru, but we know from other games that only the women of the royal family can use the “sealing” power inherited from SkSw Zelda. do you think this means that throughout history, the “Light” powers associated w the sealing are actually separate from the sealing ability? I just remember being really lost after that cutscene, cause even if Rauru somehow was a descendant of Hylia, he wouldn’t be able to use those powers, and the sealing of whatever evil is causing trouble always has a fancy light show with it lmao

So, this is a very complicated question with a very complicated theory to answer it.

We know that Sonia's primary, and, in terms of usablity, only power is Recall.

However, I do believe she's Hylia's descendant, not Rauru, despite Rauru being the one with the light/sealing power. Evidence on that here.

Being Hylia's descendant would make Sonia's birthright be a whole host of other powers, possibly latent, but more probably something that Sonia's never actually been in the right situation to use. Let's take a look at what Skyward Sword Zelda can do.

She can seal the Demon King-

-but only at the expense of her own life force being rendered inert while she does.

She can bless the Master Sword-

-but it's already as strong as it can get.

She has strong connections to time...

...but we knew that already.

Of these three powers, only one would be relevant to Sonia's skill set. The Master Sword can hardly be doubly-blessed, and the Demon King has yet to show his face.

More importantly, however, Skyward Zel's sealing power works MUCH differently to Wild Zel's.

Wild Zel's sealing is instantaneous, fueled by emotion, with seemingly no draining effect on her person.

When fully unleashed, her seal is as total as it is inescapable. It doesn't require her to put herself to sleep until Link can deal the final blow with the Master Sword. The closest thing to Skyward Zel's seal that Wild Zel did was in keeping the Calamity at bay for 100 years while Link slept. During which, it's heavily implied that she was conscious, given that she spoke to Link the instant he woke.

With Rauru, his sealing ability seems much more similar to our princess's, with only some key differences visually.

His right hand gathers light around it, and needs to be extended to fully function.

When the seal first activates, it forms a spherical shape, which is inescapable, albeit on a much smaller scale than Zelda's.

It's a little hard to see, due to the magnitude of Zelda's power, but it IS a sphere.

And although this act does cost Rauru his life, it usually doesn't. He's done this before, multiple times, as stated in Messages from an Ancient Era tablet A Pilgrimage of Light:

"The kyng was late y-come this aven, so maked the quene to sharen tales of hir lond, of shirines al grene yglouen. "Of erli daies sinnes Hyrules funding have diverse monstres hir reaume biseged ond assaylled. "Uncesinge in striffe, thei broughte to despeir folkes lyfen. Kyng ond quen ysete thamselue to bringen scurge to ende. "With might of light ond pouere, driven abak ybeen, ond the roial couple made thes shirines to selen him awei. "Thes holi selen ben yclept Shirines of Light. "Gret kyng, grete quen, y thank ye. Ye foughte whan y wer maiden-child, that y kude pes toknouen."

The translation, to the best of my efforts:

"The king was late to come this evening, so made the queen to share tales of her land, of shrines all green glowing. "Of early days since Hyrule's founding have diverse monsters her realm besieged and assailed. "Unceasing in strife, they brought to despair folks' lives. King and queen set themselves to bringing scourge to end. "With might of light and power, driven aback they been, and the royal couple made these shrines to seal him away. "These holy seals been called Shrines of Light. "Great king, great queen, I thank you. You fought when you were maiden-child, that I could peace to know."

Sonia and Rauru went around making the Shrines of Light that we find in present day and receive blessing from:

So, with the exception of the Demon King, who was so powerful that he could resurrect thousands of years later, Rauru's seal behaved like Zelda's—instant, fueled by emotion, inescapable, projected by the right hand, with no immediate toll on the user.

But what does this mean for Zelda's sealing ability? Despite behaving similarly, it doesn't look similar at all.

Let's look back at what happens when Sonia and Rauru combine their powers.

Rauru brings his hands together in a triangle shape, possibly invoking the same Triforce motif Zelda gives when she unleashes her power. The Secret Stone, which magnifies his light abilities, glows in a similar shade to Zelda's seal.

Sonia extends her right hand as her own tear glows. Despite it only amplifying her time power, her hand shows the same color Rauru's light gives off—as well as being in a spherical form.

Rauru draws in her power (and Zelda's, whose is a combination of both already and therefore adds no new properties) and forms a bright yellow light with a sphere around it.

It's better seen from this angle, where we can also see what looks like an inverted Triforce in the middle.

They're nowhere near the level of focus Zelda's Triforce has, but the triangles are definitely there.

And then it becomes a catastrophic force of power, able to wipe out an entire swarm of Molduga in a single hit.

Zelda's lineage's sealing ability is a culmination of all of this. It's Sonia and Rauru's powers combined, taking Hylia's seal, the Goddess's full power-

-and attaching that strength to something instantaneous and geared specifically to lock away darkness-

-by combining the power of time with the power of light.

Hylia's sealing power isn't Rauru's, but Zelda's is Hylia's AND Rauru's combined.

As a side note, this is also why I think, despite Rauru contributing his power, the magic remains only matrilineal. Hylia's descendants—meaning in this case, Sonia—are the only ones that carry her abilities. Rauru's power attached itself to Sonia's to create Zelda's, but Sonia's abilities—with or without Rauru's boost to them—can only be accessed by her daughters and granddaughters.

Strong enough to rival any magic in the world in sheer might, this later became known as the Light Force.

TLDR: Hylia's seal = Slow, nonlethal, exhausting toll, powerful, golden lightshow Rauru's seal = Fast, potentially lethal, concentrated, opposes Ganon, spherical lightshow Zelda's seal = Fast, concentrated, opposes Ganon, spherical (from Rauru), nonlethal, powerful, golden (from Hylia); a hybridization of both seals, the best of both worlds