#toshiro dunmeshi

[kabru-of-utaya]

omg new official art of floor one … LOOK AT THEM ALL…

[shimmeringdungeon]

Senshis comedic timing is Superb

[mothhuuny]

laishuro is like a unique breed of toxic yaoi that im coining as "vaccine yaoi" which is, yaoi that was toxic at some point, but after beating eachother up, they are now a little bit more healthy. not fully untoxic yet, but in a healthy way. like how most medicines are made out of a little bit of poison. vaccine yaoi.

(this same concept can absolutely be applied to yuri, but laios and toshiro are the two that inspired this name for me)

[mewji13775266]

[bow-wow-wark-wark]

Toshiro defense post

Hi everyone! So, I know this topic has been discussed a bunch of times before xd, but I keep seeing people say nonsense about Toshiro so… strap in cause this is another Toshiro explanation post!!

IMPORTANT: I do want to clarify that it’s fine if you dislike Toshiro. After all, everyone has the right to dislike characters so I’m not going to stop you, I know it’s not that serious. But then I’d like to ask you to stop spreading misinformation about him, use him for angst stuff that mischaracterizes him or any of that xd. Like, dislike him in peace xd but stop using him as a villain. Also, before any of you say “I understand his complexities but…”  let me stop you bc most of the time you don’t xd. Like you acknowledge the microaggressions and other things but use other poor excuses for hating him or invalidate that, so please read this post and keep an open mind!! Finaly, this post is going to touch on and disprove the following topics: 1. Toshiro hates Laois (together with stuff like how he is ableist and an asshole) 2. Toshiro is a huge hypocrite for liking Fallin (together with how he doesn’t really love her) and 3. Toshiro was racist towards itsutzumi (without getting too into complex race politics). I will also back up my arguments by content in the anime and some of the extras from the manga, despite that I will not delve on spoiler related content so, let’s get to it!

1. Toshiro hates Laios.

Something that people use to hate on Toshiro is his famous fighting scene with Laois, saying things like “Toshiro was ableist towards Laois” “Toshiro is a hypocrite because he complains about poor communication, but why didn’t he say anything himself?” “Toshiro hates Laois” but before we tackle this let’s recap:

In this scene they fight over the fact that Laois has poor social skills and doesn’t understand the ways Toshiro expresses his annoyance at him and his desire to have some space, he also accuses Laois of being unserious about saving Fallin and even says that he has always hated Laois. This scene resonated with MANY people that have experienced this exact same conversation with “friends” who would get mad at them for showing neurodivergent traits, I am one of those people as well so I can totally understand.  So, them seeing themselves in Laois and their acquaintance in Toshiro people accuse him of being ableist, but this:

Is not that. First of all, it’s important to note that Toshiro’s complaints come from his cultural background as an easterner, where he is used to subtle communication, and by his upbringing as an heir of his island (something that is explained by this thread in great detail!! But to summarize it basically says that he has become more reserved due to his retainer’s overbearing nature and do to being compared to his father constantly and by being surrounded by rumors of his family, so he chooses to not speak out as to cause more trouble for himself). Second of all he doesn’t really do anything ableist… many people say that they hate him “because he was a huge dick to Laois” but apart from expressing his frustration by yelling and fighting, something rude of course, what ableist or horrid thing did he do?  He didn’t call him names or anything, and even acknowledges the fact that Laois is someone who acts in good fate and doesn’t mean any harm to him, but he still dislikes his actions (not a bad thing at all). It’s also important to note that Toshiro is TIRED in this scene, he hasn’t eaten or slept in 3 whole days and suddenly he bumps into a bunch of problems and the girl he loves turned into a monster by this guy who seems WAY to relaxed about it and who he already has gripes against, my question is: Who wouldn’t lash out? Additionally, this scene is important for him too!! As he finally stands up for himself and expresses his feelings, something that drives his character development into being a better guy.

On top of all that, it’s also important to note that Toshiro himself shows signs of being neurodivergent just that in a different way than Laois. For example, his hyperfocus on saving Fallin making him ignore his needs, his overreliance on social cues to understand others, his stand offish an awkward nature that doesn’t let him connect with the people around him and his difficulty to express his needs. These are things many neurodivergent people can relate to, and dare I say, things Laois shares with him!! They both suck socially which is literally what causes this, so what makes him so different? So hard to forgive? What makes it hard to understand him but not Laois? And let’s all not forget the fact that Laois has been pulling a microaggression on him by calling him a butchered version of his name this entire time! It doesn’t make him evil! But it shows how they have a complex relationship where both sides where right. (Also, I know this is a complicated topic and I know there are poc people who hate him BUT, to me the issue is that he 1. Has a meltdown and 2. He’s not white. Like it is very known and said that poc cannot express themselves in such freeing ways as our white counterparts, so it’s harder to be nd and poc than white and nd, which is somehow the case for Toshiro as well xd. Many people say that he shows how people only like nd traits when they’re palatable, but this argument goes back to you, you might find nd traits better when it’s on a white guy you can baby and not on the Asian guy who should know better. None of them should have to, characters are allowed to do bad things and fix those errors).

 Lastly, Toshiro mends his mistake immediately!!  He doesn’t hate Laois, if anything he holds complicated feelings towards him for a while, which most of the cast do (more on this later). Some people seriously act like this didn’t happen, but at the end of the fight he admits that he doesn’t hate Laois (media literacy check but not everything a character says while angry is true!!) but envies his free spirited and straight forward nature. And if this doesn’t seem enough to mend his mistake, he gives Laois the calling bell, which will immediately send someone to help him and fetch him to the east. Would you have a guy that you HATE as a refugee in your country? Plus, he’s serious about the bell too! This scene wasn’t added in the anime, but there’s a point where Toshiro and Kabru are leaving and they keep hearing the bell, which they point out as annoying, despite that Toshiro always keeps it with him and says that if the noise stops, he will know to fetch Laios. If he really hated him, why would he keep a loud object around him just to make sure he is safe? (There’s literally a scene where it goes off after Laois throws it and he just acts embarrassed that it’s interrupting a conversation, but he doesn’t leave it or anything).

2. Toshiro is a huge hypocrite for liking Fallin.

With that point out of the way, lets get to the 2nd problem: Toshiro’s crush on Fallin. Let me preface once more by saying I LOVE Farcille and think they’re a very cute ship, but using Toshiro as your angst bait is not cool and super ooc (clarification: I don’t mean like a respectful joke about him getting rejected or exploring marcille’s thoughts on his proposal, I mean bashing on him hard or saying that he would intervene or disapprove of a farcille relationship).

Ok so in this case, many people say that Toshiro is a HUGE hypocrite because of 2 things: 1. He likes Fallin but dislikes Laois even though they’re almost identical, and 2. Because he claims to love Fallin while abandoning her and condemning black magic.

So, let’s get into why this is not true:

We have already discussed how Toshiro does not dislike Laois, but pushing that out of the way, the one thing he “dislikes” about Laois is the one thing he does not share with Fallin, which is their social awareness. Fallin is significantly more socially aware and tends to do things as to avoid burdening others, putting her needs aside, she’s someone who is very thoughtful and mindful of the people around her, unlike Laois who, while also thoughtful and kind, is not as receptive (Also crazy to note that her and Toshiro share this “not fully sharing my feelings as to not burden others” thing). Besides that, he likes that Fallin likes bugs/nature (the same thread from before has a nice possible explanation if you want to check it out) something that could be related to Laois’s love for monsters which, fun fact, he doesn’t hate at all!! Something that, funnily enough, others seem to give Laois flack over but not Fallin (crazy how there aren’t as many people shitting on Marcille or chilchuck for this?? specially since Fallin also likes monsters but Marcille never says anything about it and centers her annoyance on Laois? Wow… (I don’t hate Marcille for this either btw, I’m being sarcastic). And on the topic of this double standard, I’ve seen many people ask how he thinks he can marry into the Toudens while hating Laois (bad), while at the same time seeing so many “omg marcille thinks the only downside to marrying Fallin is Laois” (funny), crazy how its bad when Toshiro does it, huh? (Even crazier is the fact it’s only half true for both of them xd, they like Laois he is their friend)

So, once more he dislikes that Laois doesn’t give him space but likes Fallin because she does, especially because they aren’t very close at all. Toshiro has a hard time getting close to others and it’s stated that he tends to put barriers around himself with people who are “close” to him like maizaru and Hien. But since Fallin is an acquaintance at best it’s easy to like her from afar and the traits she seems to show outwardly.

Which leads me to the next point: Toshiro mani pixie dream girlifies Fallin. It is true that Toshiro has idealized her and doesn’t know her too well because they don’t talk but... is that a crime? There are many characters who hold biased opinions on others (like kabru with Laois or senshi with marcille or marcille with the orcs, etc.) and that doesn’t really get critiqued either. I don’t think it’s the sign of a horrid man for him to like Fallin without knowing her to well xd, it’s pretty normal for a crush and also if you consider his nature. Besides, this is once more influenced by his background: in one scene chilchuck mentions how the proposal thing is common in the east + he is an heir xd, so it’s only logical to be thinking about marriage, specially since his dad has high expectations for him (something that I know has not yet been shown in the anime, but it is present on extra manga content). It’s important to note also, that he doesn’t claim that he knows her best, puts words on her mouth or push his feelings towards her either. He proposes, she says that she will think about it and as far as the anime is concerned, he waits patiently for her answer. He doesn’t say “curse you woman you are coming with me!” or anything like that, and even if he expresses that he wants to leave with her to the east, that is ONLY if she says yes and agrees to that, so its illogical to say any of these things without proof.

Now onto the 2nd main point of this section: He abandoned Fallin and hates black magic. 1st of all, he didn’t abandon Fallin, he left to gather his retainers to search for her in a way he thought more efficient and once we see him again, he HASN’T EATEN OR SLEPT IN 3 DAYS OUT OF DEDICATION ALONE!! (If you use the argument that he abandoned Laois, that can also be explained by this). Now, him hating dark magic and claiming to turn in Marcille to the elves. This is not the best, since it poses conflict for our protagonists but 1. He doesn’t even end up doing that and helps them out after all is explained and 2. Put yourself in his shoes, what would you do if your crush turned into a monster that killed all your party? “Toshiro didn’t love Fallin enough to accept her as a monster unlike Marcille” Are you guys listening to yourselves? What he sees is a Fallin that has been desecrated and turned into a monster, something that will harm her and others + he’s not a magic specialist so how would he know or believe that they could turn her back to normal? He condemns Marcille but not out of lack of love, but I would say because of it, as far as he knows this could only turn worse for her anyways. Also, Kabru points out his illogical line of thought, claiming that it would be better for Fallin to die then, and Toshiro realizes how stupid he sounded a moment ago xd; Kabru points out how he also would have done anything to save her, and he backs down in agreement.

Once more, maybe annoying but not bad guy material. What’s more, this one is a really pressing matter as I have seen SO many Farcille fan artists and editors using him as an easy villain that hates Marcille (he is canonically scared of her) or as a cuck that doesn’t get Fallin. Somone pointed out once how he gets treated like a female character that gets in the way of an mlm ship and I agree. But while sometimes funny, it gets absurd at times and tends to border on making him someone he is not. I’ve even seen people say he’s homophobic (XD) or make him the token straight guy (something that in most fandoms means being an annoying incel character). In addition, many people say that Fallin would hate him for being “mean” to Laois but 1. She is very kind and would probably understand him. 2. If she realizes Laois has forgiven him, I don’t think she would meddle in to fix her brother’s problems because he wouldn’t want that and that’s just not her personality.

2.5 Small section.

Before we move into the last section, I’d like to add a small section called: you guys don’t understand Toshiro’s personality. Let’s be clear Toshiro is a shy, quiet, reserved, sentimental, rigid and half-hearted guy. It’s not common for him to start things, he tends to leave problem solving to authorities, he isn’t too confident in himself, and he is also an outcast in his homeland. Yet so many people describe him as being arrogant of self-absorbed and I really don’t know where that is coming from. Like, I’ve seen a bunch of people say, “oh how can he think he’s good enough for Fallin?” or variations of the sort but... I don’t think he thinks that he just decides to shoot his shot anyways. I’ve also seen some people describe him as some “pretentious rich asshole”, but this is also never showed or implied in text. Toshiro does not flaunt his wealth; he doesn’t act like he is better than ANYONE in the party, he just has money by being an heir (something not fun for him) and that’s it, but he doesn’t even use his status to get anything from anyone either., so… where is this coming from? (Racism? a need for a bad guy? who knows?) Plus, many people seem to dislike him because he is an aristocrat but… the system is not the same as being like a prince, his family just has influence in the east. Besides, characters like Laois or Mithun were also well off and from influential families and don’t get that type of flack. There’re also characters like Laois and Kabru, who express the desire to join this “aristocratic/monarchy” system by becoming king and lord of the dungeon. Who, then again, don’t get that flack.  

3. Toshiro was racist towards itsutzumi.

With that out of the way, we have reached the final point: Toshiro owns people (making him racist ig). Ok so let’s preface by saying 2 things: 1. Dungeon meshi is not a racist story, but a story with racism and many complicated race relations that get treated respectfully for the most part. With this is included, the complex treatment of beast skins and other races seen as less human like kobolds or ogres like Tade.  2. The retainers are not slaves; they are servants for Toshiro’s family.

Ok, so it is true that Toshiro’s father bought itsutzumi from people who were abusing her (and Tade as well but people don’t bring her up when talking about this xd) and later put her to work as a retainer, so therefore he owns her right? Yeah, but not as a slave. Slaves do forced labor and are kept in inhumane conditions, which she is not, as she is given a home, education and the most labor she does is chores (which she usually avoids anyways) and probably some fighting of the sort. In fact, you could even say that she was enslaved prior to being bought by Toshiro’s father (not that this is an excuse for buying her necessarily, but once more this relates to complicated race things). It is also important to acknowledge that as a beast skin itsutzumi (a non-human) is seen as less valuable and gets treated unfairly by maizuru. And while it can border on othering behavior, like being tied up for misbehaving, this is once more pushed by maizuru and not any of the other retainers or Toshiro himself.  With this argument usually comes the mention of the cursed collar that was kept on her, which is definitely a bad thing, but once more it is made by maizuru without Toshiro having ANY knowledge about it. I don’t judge any anime only for not knowing this, but in one extra it is revealed that Maizuru actually used the collar on Toshiro himself as a child, so that he would not leave too far from her side, so she explains that she made a similar one for itsutzumi; in this extra he looks surprised and remembers the traumatizing experience so... yeah, he didn’t know.

Additionally, many people compare the argument that he doesn’t own them, but his father does with the sixpence drama from a long time ago. Saying that this doesn’t excuse the behavior and that he should have done something, but that can also be explained. 1. Toshiro actually doesn’t meaningfully associate with any of the retainers prior to leaving to the island, (as explained by the adventurer’s bible and other extras) except for Hien as they are childhood friends and Maizuru. Besides that, he holds no relation to any of them, so he could not have known about itsutzumi’s situation, and it’s even shown that he doesn’t know how he should treat her at all. Despite that Toshiro does show consciousness towards their situation, saying that he would like to talk to Tade about being so adoring of him and his father, but he isn’t sure how to approach the issue. With that, we could assume the same could be said about his feelings towards itsutzumi. 2. “He left her to die”, technically no. They know she’s a capable fighter, so they probably didn’t see any problems with leaving her and also, itsutzumi scapes his party. Meaning that they know she doesn’t like them so why would they go back and search for her? If anything, Toshiro might have thought of it as an easy way to give her freedom, once more, why would you force someone back when you know they don’t want to be there?

“Why didn’t he let her go sooner?” This is explained by the first bit that he didn’t really know her and by asecond thing: contrary to popular belief, Toshiro doesn’t have such a big control of the retainers as it may seem, and it is ultimately maizurus or his father’s choice as to what to do with them. Like he didn’t want them to come with him to the island, but they don’t heed to that and come anyways. So, what makes anyone think that he could just change his fathers wishes? So yeah, he doesn’t own people they work for his family and that’s it.

So, this is the end of the post, if you read all of this, I greatly thank you and I hope I could make at least one of you change your mind. If not, oh well. Once more is valid to dislike characters, you can keep doing that but stop seriously stop with the angst bait or misinformation spread. That is all I want to say, so thank you again and see you later.

[mango-macaron]

Thinking about Laois again. Help someone put me dow-

Laois and Shuro. Two different men, two different cultures.

Toshiro, eastern. Communicates social cues through subtle body language, eye contact, hand movements and gestures. Looks away when uncomfortable, shifts away, nods but doesn't smile, makes eye contact when interested. Japanese. Kindess>everything. But small changes to show disinterest with cues. Thinks that it's normal to show boundaries quietly, not outright said.

Laois, western. Communicates more bluntly. Boundaries established out loud, says what they don't like, what they do like, has a hard time seeing little changes unless with said person for a long time. Isn't pushy with comfortability, but will say when he doesn't want to do something. Still kind, still humble and doesn't say every thought out loud, but he has more freedom to say what he does and doesn't like due to his culture.

Both have their faults. Both are responsible for their relationship falling through. It's just the context from their cultures.

Laois, not understanding because Shuro did not speak out about how he felt uncomfortable.

Toshiro, not understanding because Laois does not have the same context he does about body language.

A lot of people blame Shuro for the friendship not holding up well, but you have to understand it's both their faults!

Toshiro has more fault than Laois because he is heavily neurodivergent coded (though not right out said), but it isn't an unbalanced blame.

It's two faults, from the two cultures, and the two not speaking about it from the get go.

I need them to be friends again GOD DAMN JUST TALK TO EACH OTHER-

[miilkphone]

everytime i think about laios and toshiro i feel ill

[bug-biscuits]

flummoxed by the fact that people can hate him. look at him

how

[churroach]

Looking respectfully

(EDIT: fellas, it’s really not that deep. Anyone starting beef over this stupid drawing getting blocked, i dont care to argue with people who come and judge me (a stranger) in bad faith. A bit dissapointed that this joke post is what’s getting the most attention but alas that’s the internet for ya i guess.)

[kempkin]

my goat

[drenacocrom]

[toothwormfactory]

god imagine seeing this happen like every single day

bonus:

[edlucavalden]

Learning to eat with your hands.

[bluciusmacaw]

so so SO glad i spent several days drawing something that is too big to share with anyone without it losing its quality 😔

[chippuyon]

[🏳️‍⚧️girl laios] reactions

[skipppppy]

Happy thursday lads. Do me a favour, take my dungeon meshi dating quiz and tell me who you got in the tags