#tobirama is a bigot

[adhdnojutsu]

Sasuke & Itachi channelling Chris Chan

There's a reason I have a visceral reaction to Sonic the Hedgehog and it didn't start with this guy.

[breithenua]

Note: this post is very much inspired by a brilliant character analysis of Senju Tobirama by Sage's Rain on YT.

Gonna keep this short but I think that part of the reason some people still defend Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha is that they don't realize the difference between outright bigotry and hatred for the sake of it, and less outright variants of bigotry one justifies to oneself by saying to themselves "It's better for our society as a whole if x group is excluded/shunned/oppressed/kept from gaining too much power/etc". Most people think they're in the right, and believe they're doing what's best. A lot of people are either unwilling or incapable of considering they might be wrong, too. They're incapable of or unwilling to see past their own emotions, biases and assumptions. Many reject the possibility of being wrong because it means a significant portion of their lives, beliefs and way of life is built on lies and self-deceit.

This applies to Tobirama. Tobirama was unfairly biased against the Uchiha. Was this more understandable in his case than a lot of examples of real-life bigotry? Yes, he watched many of his comrades, family members and other loved ones die at the hands of the Uchiha during the Warring States period. Some unresolved trauma and PTSD was probably part of the problem there. But regardless of the reasons, he was unfairly prejudiced against the Uchiha. He took his fear of Madara specifically and the fear of another man like him someday rising up to attack Konoha and lead an Uchiha rebellion, and applied it unfairly to the entire rest of the clan. Marginalizing them from the center of village power, treating them as separate from the rest of the village, making up his mind that the Uchiha were naturally predisposed to evil due to their power being directly linked to their emotions, and by extension, their hatred, etc.

Ironically, it was his own actions that led to the Uchiha planning a coup d'etat years later. This isn't a new thought, the aforementioned Sage's Rain channel made that same point. But that's besides my point.

Tobirama may have been acting out of what he believed was in the best interest of the village, but that doesn't mean he wasn't bigoted and prejudiced in his actions against them. That doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, or undeserving of the label of oppressor of the Uchiha. He is a racist when it comes to his treatment of the Uchiha, and his actions in that regard led to more harm than good, regardless of his intentions being to protect the village.

P.S. I will say though that however flawed Tobirama was and how bigoted towards the Uchiha he was, Danzo was *so much worse* about it. Danzo literally manipulated the circumstances of the village after the Ninetails attack to ostracize them even further, and then manipulated Itachi to massacre his entire clan, and then stole the Sharingan eyes of multiple dead Uchiha, desecrating their bodies. In fact I believe that was Danzo's intention from the very night of the Kyuubi's attack onwards. But that's a different conversation entirely. TL;DR Tobirama was problematic but fuck Danzo to death with a spiked mace. But anyway.

[obitoslover]

Your perspective on things is AMAZING. I have no words, I'm just

Your insight on the characters and situations is just-- it feels so canon/dark (not "light hearted" as the actual series, but fitting with Konoha Founders era) I feel I can touch it with my own hands (pls tell me what's that fanfic so I'll follow/subscribe.)

And I love the historical facts, I really admire how much you know about japanese history and language

@narutobrainrotstuff @evilkitten3

mutuals what do you think it would happen if madara was the first hokage? excluding kurozetsu's whole plot ofc

[comikadraws]

how often is hashirama demonized or made out to be a villain while having his positive qualities ignored or even omitted compared to tobirama? it seems to be that tobirama is more disliked and even demonized.

Definitely. Though I can also see why and, to a degree, agree with them.

Of course, there will always be exceptions (for example, I have a mutual who harbors a burning hatred for Hashirama), but generally speaking, Hashirama often gets treated like an angel compared to Tobirama.

Hashirama is the one who founded the village and fans usually associate him with that perfect image Hashirama made up in his mind. Peace, stability, friendship.

But Tobirama is the one who actually structured the village and fans associate him with his failings. The brutality of the shinobi system, the wars waged by Konoha, the corruption in the village's government.

Both, I find, are actually fair assessments of their characters, though very one-sided. The nuances are missing.

What I believe people like to forget is that most of the village and its political relationships were built and structured by Tobirama during Hashirama's time in office. That means Hashirama oversaw the process and agreed to Tobirama's ideas.

As I explained in a different post, and as paradoxical as it may sound, Hashirama's initial goal to protect the lives of children became second to the wellbeing of the village. The village that was established for the purpose of protecting children. As Hashirama lost sight of his original goal, children were sacrificed and ended up protecting the village and not the other way around.

Madara says that Hashirama mistook the cause for the end or put the cart before the horse, depending on the translation. Hashirama, looking back at his village's history, openly admits that these were circumstances he had considered acceptable in the grand scheme of things. A mistake, as we all know.

To make matters worse, Tobirama also gets the bigot treatment from the fandom. Or rather, the fandom has identified him as what they perceive to be a racist. I have further talked about the whole issue in this post, but long story short, Tobirama makes a good training dummy for that sort of discussion but within a fandom context - even if it distorts Kishimoto's initial vision, as I have explained in this post.

What is strangely interesting is that Hashirama seemingly agrees with Tobirama's theories (about the nature of the Uchiha Clan) yet doesn't get the same amount of hate that Tobirama does for this prejudice. I have previously explained this detail in this post. The fandom's perception seems to be influenced a lot by Tobirama's and Hashirama's respective personalities and their resulting actions rather than beliefs.

And Hashirama genuinely does have more (or at least more striking) positive traits than Tobirama. He is more likable. Meanwhile Tobirama's personality, in the databooks, is described as "bold, zealous, rational, principled", whereas Hashirama's traits are listed as "warm, considerate, carefree and easy-going". Particularly Tobirama's brutal honesty and rationality are unpopular character traits.

I also somewhat implied this above, but I also believe the fandom tends to simplify and reduce the Hokage a lot to their most striking character traits or their most striking accomplishments/failings (which are not even necessarily connected to their time as Hokage).

You can see that reflected in polls. This one was made by @/narutopolls.

Hiruzen "wins" by a ridiculous percentage because he is the Hokage whose failings we have been confronted the most with during the series. His leniency on Danzo and Orochimaru, the Third Great Shinobi War that was waged during his reign, Naruto's neglect and ostracization, the mishandled Hyuga Affair, the Uchiha Genocide, and so on and so forth.

The problem is just that we don't really know that much about the other Hokage and their respective legacies aside from Tsunade maybe. Most of the decisions we see from her are in relation to Naruto, but even then she does do things for the village like founding medical law or strengthening relations with Suna. But also, her reign was not as morally complex as other Hokages' and she had the power of hindsight on her side, thanks to Danzo already having proven his untrustworthiness during Hiruzen's reign. The decisions she made are not exactly decisions other Hokage wouldn't have made in that specific scenario (Hiruzen also tried to prevent wars if we look at the Hyuga Affair and wasn't opposed to medical law, even if he didn't act on it). But we honestly don't know what Tsunade would've done in their shoes. Still, she just so happens to be a very positive, likable character with no obvious political disasters. She had less screw-ups, sure, but also she reigned during a less morally challenging time. Is she a positive figure? Yes! Would she still be if the circumstances were harder? No idea!

In regards to Minato and Kakashi, we barely even know what they did in office. Could be anything, really, but they have likable personalities and cool fights, so they are better regarded than the others and we assume that they must have excelled as much as political leaders as they have excelled in our hearts.

Naruto we also barely know anything about. You could give him shit for not abolishing the use of child soldiers, but neither did any Hokage before him. Or you might dislike him for stopping Sasuke's revolution, but he did that before his time as Hokage. So why did Naruto get voted third worst Hokage? I'd daresay it's because people were able to watch his failings on screen and that soured his character for them.

All of this is just to prove that (with the exception of Hiruzen) people seem to base their perception of a character's competence on their affinity toward that character.

And now, apply all this to Tobirama and Hashirama. We barely have any particular failings to directly connect to Hashirama. We just know about his founding of the village, his mercy and empathy for the Uchiha, and his positive personality. But that's because we never saw him actually fulfilling his Hokage duties to begin with. Additionally, while in office, he had the support of his more rational and cunning brother to prevent political disaster. He was never given the opportunity to disappoint us.

In the case of Tobirama, he gets credited specifically for the village's (poor) planning, he openly expresses prejudice toward the Uchiha (who are fan favorites), and has an unlikable personality. In the case of Tobirama too, we never got to see him in the position of Hokage and only ever witnessed the aftermath. Unlike Hashirama, for all we know, Tobirama did not receive any particular assistance to balance out his negative personality traits. He was never given the opportunity to win us over.

This creates a sharp contrast between the two. It elevates one brother's failings and facilitates choosing a "worse" brother to turn into a scapegoat for the other. And while, yes, certain things apply to both Hashirama and Tobirama (their willingness to train and use child soldiers, or their shared belief in the Uchiha's innate predisposition to strong love and hatred), we can also say that one of them actively caused those circumstances while the other mostly just condoned or supported them. They are both responsible, just to different degrees.

The only thing I really disagree with is that many fans completely absolve Hashirama of all blame or fail to even notice his faults to begin with.

[sasukesun]

How do you think Naruto views the curse of hatred and Sasuke’s darkness?

oh i think i already gave you a hint about how naruto views that in my curse of hatred ask.

actually, i don’t think naruto knows about the curse of hatred itself, the one that comes from tobirama’s bigoted views, since tobirama only voices that when sasuke is talking to the hokages, and naruto wasn’t present there. but well, do i think naruto believes sasuke is genetically predisposed to evil? lol.

like i said in the curse of hatred ask, something that seems to be very solid in naruto is the idea that people grow “positively” when they get support from others, the good place quote and all. well, naruto himself seems to be the character that understands this idea the most.

naruto understands that he and sasuke could be in each other’s places and he does explain why he thinks that, because naruto got external love from iruka and sasuke (the positive support that allows him to grow) while sasuke didn’t. despite him feeling at ease because of naruto (and naruto doesn’t quite know that), sasuke didn’t get the same support before he left konoha, thanks to orochimaru’s curse seal actively triggering him and itachi coming back and retraumatising him. naruto understands that sasuke did everything he did because he loved his family very much, it’s quite interesting how when sakura brings sasuke’s criminal status, naruto talks about sasuke’s love for his family instead of his anger.

i guess that would be enough to show that naruto doesn’t think sasuke is genetically evil, right? i will talk more, though. another thing that i criticised about kishimoto in that ask is the fact that he uses the narrative to frame sasuke as wrong in a way. that happens in the sage of six paths moment too.

what i think it’s important to say here is that those chapters are shit. seriously, they are retconned and badly written. every time i write posts like this, i reread everything, so let me tell you that i reread the chapters of the sage of the six paths and they sounded worse than they did before, and i don’t know how to express myself here without sounding like “source: trust me bro”, and maybe i shouldn’t worry about it that much since you asked for my opinion, but still, i’m gonna try to be objective and make you look at them critically so you understand why i find them shit.

just starting by the simple fact of how retconned the naruto ending is. chapters 670 and 671 especially are used to introduce kaguya as the new and final villain to the readers, that to me is already iffy as hell for one basic reason: naruto has 700 chapters, do you think it makes sense to introduce the supposed most important villain of the whole story with 30 chapters left for the ending? don’t you find that a little bit rushed? a little bit pulled out of nowhere? take madara in comparison, his first mention as a possible personality able to influence the story (and i mean madara, not obito pretending to be madara) is on chapter 370, a little bit over the half of the manga. and madara’s presence exists even before that, hence vote1 or kurama talking about him in reunion, for example. that is how far his influence on the plot goes, he is a ghost haunting everybody else. and another thing we have to take into consideration is why kaguya even exists? i could give you two reasons: (1) kishimoto wrote himself into a corner when he made madara so damn sexy powerful, to the point he didn’t know how to defeat him and (2) to build the new setting for boruto (since it’s villains are all from her clan), so yeah, pardon me for not taking kaguya’s entire existence in this story seriously.

and it’s not only about that retcon, it’s also about the other retcon that makes her existence so off from anything else in the manga. those chapters also introduce us a new idea which is: power corrupts people and it drives them mad. this isn’t about political power or anything, just raw power. those chapters push for the idea that the problem wasn’t with the shinobi structure or how villages ended as military fortresses, the problem is actually when people are too powerful, the problem is in the ninjutsu, which is different from the “ninshuu”, even though the manga never develops this idea, or explains how they are different and why, it just throws us vague affirmations from a supposed reliable source, since we are talking about the most powerful ninja in history, with no explanations whatsoever. this is a way to build a narrative, and i’m surely not saying that the narrative in question is good or reliable, you have to look at it critically.

so i guess let’s forget any political aspect of the shinobi world, whose worldbuilding started in land of waves, the very first arc of the manga, because the actual problem is that… there is a fruit that turns people powerful and therefore evil, huh? well, that’s not the narrative i’m buying, it’s far from enough to convince me.

and finally we get to how the fuck does that involve sasuke? well, the story tell us that indra was born naturally strong and believed that with power anything was possible, while ashura was only able to reach the same level through hard work and cooperation… so if sasuke has indra’s chakra clinging onto him… do you see where the narrative is trying to go? i have already talked about how it’s bullshit that sasuke was a natural prodigy, so the narrative can’t even get that right, but here they are also hinting that sasuke is corrupted by power. it’s not enough that the narrative is trying to make us forget about the shinobi system problems — and the uchiha massacre and sasuke wanting justice is a very relevant one of those problems — it’s also trying to push for the idea that sasuke is wrong because he is corrupted by power, while centring the morality around naruto. it’s not a “curse of hatred” that sasuke “suffers” from here, but it’s also the idea of power driving people mad and making him irrational and therefore, they are stuck in this cycle of hatred.

now, the narrative and the character are separated entities, a character can be used to build a narrative, a narrative can reinforce the credibility of a character, but i can’t blame naruto as a character for a narrative that tries to frame him as good. besides, what naruto actually thinks of this?

kishimoto made sure to emphasise it at least four times… in less than 30 chapters.

and what is even more ironic is that, even though the sage of the six paths himself is used to build this narrative, he is also used to push for the idea that naruto and sasuke are different from the ones that came before them, that they are their own people. not only the sage of the six paths btw, hashirama as well… who was used to talk about sasuke’s “soul consumed by darkness”, like i said in the curse of hatred ask.

isn’t it just messy?

now, about sasuke’s “darkness” and how naruto views it. another thing i said in the curse of hatred ask is that i don’t think the darkness used in a derogatory way to talk about sasuke wanting justice for his clan is the same darkness of sasuke’s desire to isolate himself. the latter is a darkness that manifests through sasuke’s final plan: a darkness that is about bearing everybody else’s “hatred” (which would be anger against an enemy) all by himself.

i think that’s pretty objective, actually.

and obviously, another thing that is very objective and explicitly stated is that in order to sasuke’s version of hokage to work, he must cut naruto off, he must be alone so he will be able to endure all the hatred himself.

and then we go back to what i talked about in the beginning of this ask. naruto understands that people grow positively with the support they receive from others.

don’t you think it makes sense of naruto to try to give back the love sasuke gave to him in the beginning of the story, since he himself admits that sasuke and iruka changed his heart? well, that’s pretty much textually supported.

“rather… i pray they’re able to reclaim the love they’d lost… not just naruto… but sasuke as well”

even naruto’s explanation of what “friend” means to him is related to not being able to turn his back to sasuke when sasuke is hurting, and he knows sasuke’s isolation is just a way to hurt himself, it is also textually supported that naruto’s issue is with sasuke being alone.

he just can’t turn his back on sasuke, knowing sasuke is perfectly capable of good, like- is there any doubt to naruto that sasuke is good and deserves the positive support (love) like anybody else? sasuke is the one that doubts himself (because of itachi’s influence on his mindset), but naruto doesn’t even hesitate.

i really hope you were able to get my train of thought and understand that even though there is a narrative trying to frame sasuke as wrong one way or another, not every character believes it, nor you should believe it just because it tells you so. i myself can’t take it seriously when i look at it critically.

[all-naruto-polls]

Ok, so the results came in and a lot of you didn't surprise - the theme of the ask was the following "Since so many of you think Tobirama wasn't racist towards the Uchiha (about half), then what was he?" and these below are the stats:

Biased 12% Intolerant 1.2% Prejudiced 9.6% Discriminatory 2.4% Bigoted 1.2% Xenophobic 1.2% Jingoist 0.6% Isolationist 1.2% Antagonistic 0% Plain Hostile 1.2% All of the above 18.1% None of the above 51.2%

About half of you in the fandom have the perception that Tobirama displayed none of the aforementioned traits. So here's my next question:

If none of the above descriptions satisfy your interpretation of Tobirama's character, then, in your opinion, "did Tobirama do nothing wrong?" Y/N

[justsomeoneunordinary]

Since I already poked into the hornet’s nest a few times, I might as well get this out once and for all and be done with it: In my opinion, character antis and character stans are both two sides of the same coin. Both go into the extreme and more importantly, both lack nuance.

(I came from the MCU Tony Stark fandom into the Founders Tobirama fandom and it’s crazy how much they parallel each other. All fandoms have some similarities, but in this case, the antis, the stans, the tropes, the mischaracterization are so much the same, it’s freaking mind-blowing.)

The thing about the founders characters is that they’re just a footnote in the whole Naruto story—we don’t know enough and that means we have to interpret a lot of things. And naturally, interpretations vary. If you look at Tobirama and decide that he’s some bigot, then you can do that. (I’m not going into the whole racist debate about him, I have already stated my thoughts on that.) To me, though, this is such an incredibly boring interpretation. The fascinating part about the founders is that none of them are morally good characters due to the times they grew up in. Some might be darker grey than others but, in the end, they all have good sides and bad sides and that’s what makes them interesting to me. That’s what makes them 3-dimensional characters, rather than flat ones.

It’s absolutely wild to me that you would want to imagine any character as bigot at all, instead of trying to put yourself into the character’s shoes and try to see where they might come from. We don’t see any of his thoughts ever, we only have his words and what we do with them is up to us. Maybe he did put the Uchiha all in the police to close them off from the rest of the village in hopes it’ll be their demise, but isn’t that a bit boring? Isn’t that also a bit of a wild theory, considering there’s no assurance the Uchiha will perish once he’s gone? If anything, he would want to get rid of them while he’s still around and holds a leadership position. He says he did it to integrate them more into the village and give them a good purpose, and isn’t that more interesting? If he really, genuinely thought that and failed so massively? Doesn’t that make him a way more interesting character, a character with his own weaknesses? Sure, you can imagine the former but I fail to see how that’s more interesting than the latter. In the end, we don’t know what’s true anyway, we don’t know what’s going on in his head, we don’t know how he went from “grown-ups are stupid and just need to make a truce” to being so ready to kill the Uchiha and not believing in peace at first, so we might as well go with the 3-dimensional interpretation, no?

Similarly, people who put him on a pedestal, who believe he has done no wrong, who see him as the good dutiful brother, while Hashirama, in contrast, is in the wrong—how do you take a character who’s so multifaced, who shows intelligence and leader capabilities, who went from not believing in peace to wanting to protect it at any cost, but who’s also way too prejudiced of the Uchiha to the point he threatens a teen before he even knows what’s up, and make him flat? Tobirama is no saint. A man who can create the Edo Tensei and use it often enough that every other Kage immediately recognize it is not a morally correct person. I will not get into the debate if the Edo Tensei is morally bad or not, since killing people is equally fucked up and the point is thus moot because no shinobi is a saint. But the way he talks about the Uchiha is fucked up. Personally, I think it’s hilarious how he calls Sasuke a little shit and how he loses his temper. From an audience view, I love it. But from a character analysis view, it’s wrong. That’s a whole grown-ass man who was Hokage and before that the Hokage’s right-hand man and he wants to attack an Uchiha teen just like that before he even has all information.

If you think he could somehow have been a better Hokage than Hashirama, then you can do that but I fail to see how. I don’t think he’s some bigoted asshole with no good qualities, but he’s not faultless either. We don’t know what is going on in his mind at any time but we see he has good qualities and bad qualities alike, and you can just latch onto one of these qualities and pretend the other don’t exist but in my opinion, that’s how you create a flat character.

(On a different note: I know so many people are mad about the “curse of hatred” thing and I get it but it’s so weird to me that they hate Tobirama for this instead of Kishimoto. This isn’t presented to us as an opinion but as a fact. Kishi came up with all kinds of new things when it comes to the Uchiha and the curse of hatred just was his newest nonsense. Hate the message; not the messenger.)

And while I’m already on the topic of wanting to interpret characters as bigots: Izuna doesn’t have a character. Izuna isn’t even a character; he’s a plot device. People can imagine him however the fuck they want and there’s zero right or wrong. However, I fail to see why people would want to imagine him as a bigot. They heard him saying not to trust the Senju when Hashirama asked for peace and decided clearly, he must be a warmonger, a spoiled little bitch, an idiot etc. Absolutely wild to me. You literally have free reign, you could try to put yourself into his shoes and try to see why he thinks so, why he’s so mistrusting, how it must look from his point of view, and instead you decide to portray him in the worst way possible. I mean, you can do that and no one can tell you you’re wrong, but wow, this could never be me. Sorry, I prefer to imagine characters in a more multi-faceted way than have such a flat view of them.

Now, Hashirama is far more established as a character than Tobirama is but he is, like the other founders, still just a side character with so many unknown variables and a whole lot of freedom for interpretation. But, I think if you somehow think of him as a master manipulator, as someone who’s a bad leader, as an idiot… you can think that. There isn’t enough canon material to disprove that completely. However, if you think that, I think you missed some crucial parts about him. You missed his strive for peace since he was a child, you missed that the Uchiha willingly deserted over to the Senju when Hashirama was clan head and that the Senju were ready to make peace with the Uchiha under his rule, you missed that Hashirama was voted Hokage by a majority. None of this would make sense if he were a dumb, bad leader, now, would it?

Usually, Hashirama depicted as an idiot also goes hand-in-hand with the Tobirama stans who see him as a bad brother. I already talked about this, so I won’t go into detail, but Hashirama rightfully calling Tobirama out when he’s being a prejudiced shit toward the Uchiha doesn’t make him a bad brother. His threatening Tobirama when Tobirama is about to kill Madara doesn’t make him a bad brother either. It is wrong. He’s overly emotional over this and he’s being unfair in that moment but that alone doesn’t make him a bad brother, it just makes him a well-written character who has his own faults. Sometimes he’s too emotional, sometimes he’s too idealistic, and if you see that and decide it means he’s a shit brother and also an idiot, then you can interpret it that way but I couldn’t disagree with you more if I tried.

To me, he’s a good man, a charismatic man who’s trustworthy, who always strives for peace and the best in general, but also a product of his times, a son of his father, a man who goes his path straight ahead and doesn’t look left and right which then leads to fucked up situations such as almost killing himself in front of Tobirama, or also killing Madara in the end instead of trying to find a different way. It makes him interesting.

At the end of the day, my opinion is always, if you have to push other characters down (Hashirama as an idiot; Izuna as a bigot; Madara as a madman), so you can pull up your fave (Tobirama as the only right one, the better leader, the better brother), then the problem is you. It just shows me that you don’t know how to prop your fave on his own and who he simply is when you can’t do it without making others look bad. Sorry not sorry.

(This really happens in so many fandoms—you have a character who’s shown as the good one but then you get to see his bad sides and people latch so much onto that that they then portray him as the devil incarnate. Vice versa, you’re given an asshole character who’s shown to have his good sides and fandom somehow manages to twist it so much that suddenly this character is the real saint. It’s maddening.)

Lastly, Madara is just like the other characters a complicated character with his good and bad sides. I think it’s crazy how some people only see a madman and a terrorist in him, and how others find he was right with everything. Again, you can interpret is such, but… no. He’s a deeply traumatized and grieving man, who believes in peace and wished it badly but saw that it would never be achieved because humans will always fight each other no matter what, and then makes a decision that is nuts. The Infinite Tsukuyomi is utter bullshit even without Zetsu and Kaguya, but he is right in pointing out that there will be no real peace. The problem is just that there’s no perfect answer for that—the answer is democracy, therapy and transparency of the higher-ups, which is a boring solution for the world Kishimoto created because in a world where cool fights go brrrr and friendship is magic a political answer like that is not going to cut it. Which is why he had to come up with a bigger threat and make Madara look insane, even though the points he made were right, only his methods wrong.

My general opinion is, when you have characters that are so little established, that leave so much room for interpretation, I don’t see why anyone would want to interpret them in such a flat manner. I like my characters 3-dimensional, I like to take the good and the bad in stride, and you can do you, that’s fair enough. But if you come to me to put Tobirama in the good light and Hashirama in the bad one, or in converse, to tell me what a bigot Tobirama is, then you’re at the wrong address here, and that’s on that.

[idkhowtopickausername]

I agree that it can't all be put on the editors, but Kishimoto had Naruto say the standard issue ninja-tool ideology was wrong and how he was going to find his own way early on. I don’t really think Kishimoto had in mind to make Naruto's answer to that be raising the shinobi age limit or something to that effect. After that it would be so anti-climatic. Naruto still didn't have an answer after the whole Pein thing either, but Minato also said something along the lines of as long as shinobi exist peace cannot which planted an interesting seed - would abolishing the system altogether result in peace? We can't really say what Kishimoto was planning I guess we can just speculate, but the way he set up story-telling elements early on suggest otherwise, and even if he gave up on it eventually he still threw in some of those ideas in the mix.

I think Sasuke and Pein were portrayed to be very sympathetic and justified in their feelings, but the way they went about getting change in a violent manner was not okay... by killing people/robbing them of free will. Madara and Obito too. It was still clear from their backstories and motivations that change in the system is required, but change in a different way. Also Tobirama was straight up admonished by Orochimaru and Hashirama (though nothing ever came of it but he's a dead man and obviously nowhere near enough but by the end it's not like Tobirama was praised for his actions). Danzo's values were not upheld the only people who were like "good job Danzo" were those anti-Uchiha which were also obviously not in the right. I think maybe the first step should've been calling out the Will of Fire for what it actually is - propaganda. It burns with the sacrifices of many. Unless everyone knows the truth it's easy to take something at face value and say they were wrong, or they were right. Their actions were justified, those were not. They were villains, they were heroes.

Sorry I've rambled long enough bye.

I can see what you’re saying and I think if I had only seen the Land of Waves arc then I would probably think the show was going to end with some sort of systemic change, but the nationalism in the parts that come after that feels too ubiquitous to me to be forced or incidental. Even as early as part 1 I do think there was some (although much less) of it. When Sasuke asked to fight Naruto on the rooftop and was acting more aggressive towards him than he ever had before (which I don’t think was necessarily out of character given how he’d just been retraumatized over not being powerful enough), he refused to put on the leaf headband which I think in terms of how that scene was framed served to link uncharacteristic aggression and breaking of friendships (the show’s moral core being about not betraying your friends) with disloyalty to to the village. He was implied to be straying from the ‘correct path’ of loyalty to the village and it was implied that later on he would learn a lesson and come aback, even if he was portrayed sympathetically.

While it’s true that Danzo and Tobirama weren’t necessarily treated as good people by the narrative, other characters who have killed lots of people for the village (Itachi, Minato, and Kakashi for example) are portrayed as heroic. Itachi carried out a genocide and this is portrayed as tragic but to some degree justified, which I don’t think Kishimoto was forced into writing. A person doesn’t have to be overtly bigoted or visibly leaping at the chance to do something cruel to still actively uphold an oppressive system. Hiruzen is treated as a bit flawed and like he maybe could have done better but nonetheless well-intentioned when he is shown to have known about Danzo’s plans as and done nothing about it, and then Naruto himself agrees to cover up the massacre which isn’t necessarily out of place in a story that was already portraying Itachi as a tragic hero who humbly accepts hatred instead of praise.

The villains’ plans are for the most part impractical and overly violent (although in many ways the same could be said of the current system), but it’s part of the problem that all of their plans are shown to be that way. The good characters don’t actually do anything to really change the system in any material way, they just passively lament the problems with it. The only characters who do construct actual plans for change and try to put them into action are the villains, and giving them such ridiculous plans is a significant part of how the show vilifies more radical viewpoints. The rhetoric of “the leaf village killed my family and made my life hell so we need to actively change the system so that this never happens again and I have a plan to make this happen” being paired with plans that are allegorical of things like a nuclear arms race (ironically the opposite of what someone who actually opposes the war machine would probably want), does lead to the vilification of characters like the ame orphans even if they are portrayed as sympathetic. Sasuke killed less people over the course of the story than almost all the series’ adult characters but is still portrayed at times as unhinged and overly violent in conjunction with moments when he moves further away from being loyal to the village.

I do agree that you can take quotes like Minato saying that peace can never be achieved while shinobi exist and put them together to get actual political criticism and implications that the system should be abolished, which is why I think lots of people (including myself) feel drawn to analyzing it, but at the same time you have Jiraiya saying there’s too much ‘hate’ in the shinobi world and Naruto winning all his fights with the power of friendship and the implication that people just need to be nicer to each other. I think the politics of the show at many points are muddled and contradictory, and abolishing the shinobi system would have been the most actually logical answer to the problems presented, but it’s not uncommon for people to lament problems that are effects of a larger system and even recognize them as systemic issues but still be opposed to any actual attempts to radically change that system, or veer away from them in favor of platitudes.

I don’t think Naruto raising the age limit of shinobi would presented as the full solution to the political problems presented if Kishimoto had more time, it’s more like he would be shown making some new rules like that and through the magical power of him being nice and powerful and a good leader Konoha would be portrayed as generally more prosperous and peaceful and major wars would be averted while the day to day violence of the shinobi system would be glossed over.

[bylightofdawn]

I have LONG since left my Naruto weeabo days behind and have zero interest in ever going back to it but mother FUCKER

THEY MADE A FUCKING TOBIRAMA FUNKO POP AND IT'S AWFUL AND I WANT IT.

I have such a love to hate relationship with Tobirama. He's so cool and I hate how the fandom just distilled everything he was about to him being a bigoted anti-Uchiha hater. And he's so gloriously crotchety and superior. I just love him so much I want to punch him in the face.

So I kinda want this hideous GOD AWFUL MONSTROSTIY. I actually kinda high key love the whole set. But I am not shelling out that much cash for a fandom I don't even participate in.

Also? WHY IS THERE A GAR SAXON POP. Speaking of characters who I would love to punch in the face. WHy is there a Gar Saxon funko pop?

AND NOT A FENN RAU ONE??!??! ARE YOU KIDDING ME. The disrespect. I can't even. She says as she slowly adds the Saxon funko pop to her amazon cart.

One day my boy will get some love and attention. One day.

I also went to Target today and saw a Lego Commander Cody and Captain Rex helmets and God dammit I want them. They are like 60 or 70 bucks a pop but I HAVE A POWERFUL NEED. And I want both. I also saw a figure version of Cody online which is not is cool in my opinion.

[breithenua]

I still think Tobirama was bigoted. Sorrynotsorry. You can't tell me that him looking at Sasuke and basically saying "Oh an Uchiha eh? Of course you'd associate with scum like Orochimaru" wasn't bigotry. Him automatically associating his standing next to Orochimaru as making sense because he's an Uchiha? Pretty fucking bigoted.

Him deciding that all Uchiha were more susceptible to going off the deep end when they lost someone they loved, based on a few cases when he had counterpoints in Uchiha he actually worked with? Pretty bigoted.

Him making them the ninja military police force may seem well-intentioned, but making the anbu that basically had the same job but higher on the totem pole with no Uchiha in it, kinda makes it bigoted too.

Look, I'm not saying he's fucking Danzo and wanting to wipe them the fuck out or segregating them from the rest of the village. I'm not saying he's not well-intentioned towards them for the most part. But not every case of bigotry is "oh those damn [x group], the world would be better without them in it.". There's levels to this shit. Je's kinda like your grandpa that tries his best to be nice and respectful towards your non-white s.o. but as soon as something goes missing from the house during a house party the first person he suspects of being a thief is said s.o. He's trying his best, but old habits die hard.

And I'm not saying Tobirama was ultimately a bad person either. He did a lot of good for the village and created a lot of systems that still exist in the Boruto era. But he wasn't without his imperfections. He was bigoted towards the Uchiha. He tried his best to be fair and ignore the bias and leftover PTSD from decades in which he fought against the Uchiha during the Warring States period, but that doesn't mean he succeeded. The sooner y'all realize that whether someone is bigoted or not isn't a question of extremes, the better you're gonna be towards marginalized groups, and the better you'll be as people. And the sooner you realize that just because someone is what you consider a good person, that doesn't mean they can't be display toxic behaviours, the sooner you can be well-adjusted adults in the world.

We all have our flaws, and if you don't acknowledge not just other's flaws in a reasonable way, but your own as well, then you can't do anything to improve upon them. Be open-minded about hearing your heros' flaws, and your own.

[obitoslover]

Hey mutual

How about no. 16 for the ask game

Hello mutual!

Ask game!

16. Is Tobirama racist against Uchihas?

You already know my opinion about it, yes I firmly believe he is

His "reasons" and, mostly, how he managed the situation were extremely similar to how prejudice/racism happens in real life, it hits too close to home for me

"But the Uchiha weren't a race!" Firstly, race isn't a clear definition, it's not simple to define race

Secondly, I think they can be seen as such considering only Uchiha can awake their kekkei genkai, as well as they had their culture and unique traditions/beliefs; also, they were treated differently in their only village, just like many racial minorities are (they can also be coded to be any type of minority, of course, but we're talking about one specifically)

The narrative may put things in order to validate this distrust of the Uchiha, but either it's not a generalized thing for all members and, even if it were, it would be obvious it's "lowkey" bigoted to make an entire race/group as bad guys with no nuance just like globins, for example; it's like put irredeemable traits in a villain with revolutionary ideals to make the public not sympathize with them and their motivations

Also I think it's funny how many people can say with no problem he had prejudice against the Uchiha, but can't say with all words he's racist

[sasukesun]

Hi what do you think about the curse of hatred or more specifically how do you think Sasuke views it because he didn’t say much about it. He mentioned the cycle of hatred but that’s separate.

you see, there is no problem in saying “the uchihas awaken their power when they experience severe trauma/sadness for losing the ones they love”, that’s exactly what happens actually, the thing is that tobirama takes another step to say “therefore those people are genetically predisposed to evil”, he basically says that having trauma makes you a bad person.

“all of those who experience those strong emotions invariably become consumed by a depraved path”

“(the more traumatised they get) the harder it is to reason with them”

“this little shit inherited the uchiha’s malevolence”

what i think it’s also relevant to talk about is that tobirama’s concept of “goodness” is inherently associated with protecting the village and what is best for the village.

there are “good uchihas” to him, those who put the village above the clan. it just slips from his mind that he was the one who persecuted the uchihas and their coup was only planned because they’ve had enough of being ostracised and distrusted by the village they helped build.

most characters don’t buy this kind of narrative, but it’s still there and it doesn’t seem to be refuted, not in a way that matters, and that’s the biggest problem, considering most of this fandom lacks the reading comprehension. the narrative doesn’t make an effort to say otherwise.

and the problem is that kishimoto tries to use it to rationalise sasuke wanting justice for his clan at some point. for example, hashirama does scold tobirama for his bigoted views, more than once actually, he even understands something that has been very solid in naruto’s narrative that is the idea of — and i’m gonna quote the good place here — “people improve when they get external love and support, how can we hold it against them when they don’t?” (which is exactly what naruto sees in him and sasuke, btw), therefore he can’t turn his back on sasuke, but there is still this idea that “there is a darkness consuming sasuke’s soul” (and this darkness is his desire to destroy konoha for what it did to his family, therefore his desire to seek justice).

and people buy that, how many times have you seen fans trying to dismiss sasuke’s actions/words because “he was in the darkness”?

(i also don’t think this type of darkness addressed here is the same as sasuke’s desire to isolate himself type of darkness, nor i think sasuke thinks like that. the reason why sasuke asks for naruto’s reassurance at vote2 isn’t because he believes he himself is genetically predisposed to evil, but rather because of the mindset he grew up with).

[all-naruto-polls]

Since so many of you think Tobirama wasn't racist towards the Uchiha (about half), then what was he?

Biased Intolerant Prejudiced Discriminatory Bigoted Xenophobic Jingoist Isolationist Antagonistic Plain hostile All of the above None of the above

[antenanotaic3]

Just realized they never actually said the clan was moved by Tobirama. Obito never said that, Orochimaru said building the station was *as if* they were moved. Metaphorically speaking in other words. Since there’s not one word to indicate that at that time the Headquarters and the clan were put together.

The Konoha Police Force Headquarter wasn’t in the same place as the clan until Danzo proceeded to do such. Itachi Shinden shows as much when it mentions the clan was scattered all over the place rather than in one location. Tobirama just built a building. And the only way the clan was driven away was by being unallowed to have a relevant political position.

Another fun fact I realized after reading the novel.... There is a certain contradiction I noticed in it and that was the fact that the ANBU was only told to watch over the clan at that time by Hiruzen due to the crisis. Outside what Obito said back when he pretended to be Madara about it there's no hint that ANBU ever watched them over prior to that. Tobirama nor Orochimaru ever hint at it. And Orochimaru should have known, being under Danzo and all, about everything ANBU related. When in the novel it's thought to be problematic for Itachi to join ANBU it's not at all because the clan isn't meant to know about the fact that the group watched them but because they thought 'it's close to the Hokage' and that 'Tobirama would have disagreed' for that reason. When, in a parantheses, Tobirama would have only disagreed if it was a political position which was not the case.

These things answered my question of why didn't the Uchiha, if had it so badly during Tobirama's reign, attempt a coup back then as well. Since all they got was being looked at with distrust until they had proven themselves and power over the police, there was no substantial reason for one.

Posted this a bit differently somewhere else. Because I feel dumb for not realizing earlier. I’m pretty slow ig..

[maoam]

In chapter 700 boruto defaces the hokage monument... on hashirama's face he writes idiot, tobirama: good outside, evil inside/underhand/treacherous, hiruzen: pervert, minato: geezer/grandpa, tsunade: hag, kakashi: 👄, naruto: idiot. For tobirama especially that insult is so pointed and kind of weird for boruto to use. Do you think it shows that kishimoto's stance is that tobirama's wrong and also mocking the series considering how nothing changes even with naruto as hokage. Everything on the monument is true except kakashi's lips I guess. The final panel of the manga is naruto's stoneface with the writing stupid old man lol

Yes. It's typical for Kishimoto to use humor to hide subliminal messages. Like in the case of Naruto's sexuality, he'll give some implication of homosexuality, then often use humor to distract from it.

If you think about how writing works, I don't think it makes sense Kishimoto would think Tobirama is good. He doesn't portray him in a good light. Both his brother and Orochimaru consider him a judgemental bigot. The only person who speaks for him is Tobirama himself.

インケン

This is the word used of Tobirama for people who are curious. It means sinister, treacherous. Quite smart of Kishi! For Hashirama, it says the common baka, which you could think oh that's just a common insult a kid would use, an idiot. Or pervert for Hiruzen, maybe Boruto has heard the tales of Naruto using Oiroke no Jutsu on Hiruzen. An old geezer for Minato, well that's his grandpa so.

But sinister/treacherous for Tobirama? Nah, that's Kishi speaking. I did see one Japanese person pointing out this writing and say "Nidaime has been acknowledged as sneaky and treacherous!" As for the baka, it does seem like throwing shade on how nothing has changed.

[samasmith23]

Also, let us not forget that the majority of Uchiha who unlocked their Sharingan during Tobirama’s lifetime lived during the Warring States era, when nearly EVERYONE had at least once dead relative. So of course a lot of Uchiha back then would have awakened their base Sharingan from feelings of loss and despair.

Tobirama’s still a bigoted asshole IMO though, since he used Madara as a scapegoat to discriminate against all of the Uchiha Clan during his tenure as Second Hokage…

So yeah people where trying claim that tobirama made up the curse of hatred and that Sarada mangekyou awakening proved tobirama

Wrong only for Naruto official website to release this on sarada birthday

Confirmed she unlocked her sharingan out of despair

The despair she felt due boruto sutation where he was about to be killed

Similar to the way obito unlocked his when Rin died the only difference is that boruto was about was about to killed instead a actually being killed

And she didn't react to this despair like the other uchihas did because Naruto and sasuke ended the curse of hatred but the. Fanbase still doesn't understand this apparently

That is only difference because the curse of hatred no longer exist sarada didn't change when she almost boruto

The sharingan

She outright unlocked her sharingan form the despair proving what tobirama said about sharingan correct

It was always the people who are claiming that was sasuke was never in the darkness trying to say tobirama made the curse of hatred up he didn't

Why were they saying that Sarada awakening her Mangekyou Sharingan proved Tobirama wrong? Because they thought it meant that she awakened it out of something other than loss or despair? The thing is, firstly, Tobirama was referring to the regular Sharingan, not the Mangekyou, so there's not even a comparison there in the first place. Secondly, Sarada wouldn't have even been the first person to unlock the Sharingan from a non-negative emotion, because Obito first unlocked his regular Sharingan from a desire to protect Rin, not from any loss or despair. It was the despair he (and Kakashi) felt from losing Rin which led to them unlocking the Mangekyou, but he unlocked his regular Sharginan through different emotions.

During Sasuke's talk with the first 4 Hokages, Tobirama made it clear that there were several examples of Uchihas in the past who's Will of Fire was greater than their hatred, including Kagami and Itachi, so he had already established that the Curse didn't apply to every Uchiha. Therefore, just because an Uchiha may unlock the regular (or even the Mangekyou) Sharingan through an emotion other than loss or despair, this wouldn't serve as evidence that the Curse didn't exist.