#this was originally just abt how ALL of them have similarities to BOTH of bruces parents

[astyrluna]

had some batman/batfam thoughts

(obligatory reminder that ive only read a handful of comics, im workin on changing that but for now most of my knowledge ive gotten through the fandom. would love any comic recs lol)

i do enjoy the idea of the batkids all resembling bruce in some way or another, whether that be through physical features or mannerisms or whatever. i also REALLY like the idea of the batkids each resembling bruces parents in whatever way. so, how about this:

when bruce looks at his children and sees his parents, he usually sees thomas in them. dick just has this way of talking to people thats all thomas, and he gets a dimple in his left cheek when he smiles, just like bruce, and like thomas. tim has the sharp mind and dry, witty humor bruce remembers looking up to in his father. cass is so caring, so determined to help, just like thomas was, and the way she matches his facial expressions is almost uncanny sometimes. when duke laughs, bruce sometimes thinks, just for a moment, that hes hearing his father. and, of course, damian bears a resemblance to his paternal grandfather thats becoming quite striking as he grows up.

when bruce looks at his children and sees his parents, he usually sees thomas. but jason? jason is the spitting image of martha wayne. he has the shape of her eyes, the slope of her nose (though jasons is quite crooked now), the same curly, unruly hair that shines reddish-brown in the sunlight. martha was a strong, plump woman with a sharp tongue, kind eyes, and a smile that felt like home. when jason came back, hed regained the height and weight that malnutrition stole from him, and, fueled by his rage, his words are just as deadly as his weapons. but, despite everything, the protectiveness, the kindness in his eyes he had as robin never left, and bruce rarely gets to see jason smile these days, but when he does, it fills him with a sense of comfort he hasnt felt in so many years.

from the beginning, bruce looked at jason and saw martha. and in his mind, the memories of kneeling in the rubble of a warehouse, holding the still body of his son, begging him to wake up, and kneeling in a dark alleyway, holding the still body of his mother, begging her to wake up, are irreparably fused.

[idekwthmuistb]

Ok so I got started on dog breeds for the batfam and I know that there have been thoughts abt it before so here are mine! (Also fair warning I go off a mixture of vibes, looks, and basic breed temperment AND im not a dog breed specialist or anything like that, im pretty much just using the akc website for these breeds)

I'm gonna start with Alfred, honestly I was at first thinking a burmese or standard poodle but they just weren't really clicking right. Eventually I settled on him being either a schnauzer or terrier which helped narrow my options greatly! Looking through them all I decided the Giant Shnauzer suited him best in the end. The breed is very loyal, hard-working, and can be quite the guard!

Alfred - Giant Shnauzer:

I saw a post saying Bruce would be a Belgian Sheepdog and at first I completely agreed due to their looks but when I learned a bit more about their personality i was like hmmm so I went looking for something more in line with how I see him. Belgium Teruven popped up right after, and though similar, I thought it fit him better. Honestly could have just been due to the different wording but I like them better for Bruce regardless lol

Bruce - Belgian Teruven:

Dick was surprisingly a LOT harder than I thought he'd be. There were three breeds I got stuck between: the Dalmation, Mudi, and Norwegian elkhound. All very different dogs by all means yet each fit him quite well. I dismissed Dalmation first, though they're agile, they weren't quite friendly enough. Mudi was next for much the same reasons. It was around this time that I had also started considering a Great Pyrenees for him, seeing as they are known as both loving and vicious–though I ended up not going with it because they're a bit too calm (hm maybe alfred should be a Pyrenees instead?). That left me with the Norwegian Elhound. The breed is very dependable, friendly, and just fits his vibes looks-wise.

Dick - Norwegian Elkhound:

I know most people give Jason a mixed breed or just say he's a mutt because he came from a lower-income household but honestly that doesn't sit well with me, especially when we're giving the others their own breeds. As soon as I found the Anatolian Shepard I was like YES THATS HIM!! They're a large breed that is fiercely protective of their herd and are very loyal and independent. They'll protect what's theirs and are surprising nimble!

Jason - Anatolian Shepard:

Cass was honestly quite difficult for me. I quickly crossed out any typical herding breeds (Shepards, Collies, ect ect) and sight-hounds because she was raised to be LETHAL and I know that any breed can be deadly if trained right (or wrong) they just weren't what I was looking for. I played around with a few breeds like the akita, or a basenji, but they weren't quite right. But then, I came across a breed named Kai Ken. They're a medium sized dog, originating in Japan and used for hunting a wide range of animals in Japan's mountains. The Kai Ken are extremely versatile (they're known to CLIMB TREES) and loving of their family. They are also born completely black but develope a subtle brindle coat that helps them camouflage and I just think that's SO COOL???

Cass - Kai Ken:

Now, I'll be real with yall, I don't know much about Duke and wasn't really looking for a breed for him because of that but I came across one that clicked with him in my mind? The breed is called Large Munsterlander which is just a wild name BUT they're very cooperative and calm. This breed is very versatile and are meant for hunting–they're sense of smell is impressive and they're quite determined when it comes to hunting and retrieving any game.

Duke - Large Munsterlander:

Tim Tim Timothy, though high-class, I honestly thought at first that he'd be a Border Collie. However, as I was perusing dog breeds, I realized that the Collie was only representing half of him, as it didn't really match his looks or vibes, merely his personality. So I thought and thought and then–BAM, my brain gave me two choices, the Ibizan Hound or the Pharoah Hound. After figuring out that they were quite similar in personality, I decided to go with the Ibizan Hound. Funnily enough, they can be very attached but not prone to overtly showing it!

Tim - Ibizan Hound:

Now, Damian is a little trickier because I could fully see him taking after Bruce in having the same breed both bc they're blood related and just the vibes but, though I couldn't find much information on them, based on my personal experience with them I do think the Black Mouth Cur would be a good match up to Damian. They can be very territorial of people and things they think is theirs if not properly socialized. Otherwise they'll be very loving and protective of those they've deemed family and are built for hunting large game that are common around farms.

Damian - Black Mouth Cur:

And then here's some miscellaneous people

-Talia and Ra's I could see being Salukis

-Stephanie is perhaps a Portuguese Podengo, scrappy

-Barbara is a Redbone Coonhound all the way

-Roy is a Finish Spitzin my eyes

-Clark gives Dogo Argentino

-Diana feels like a Leonberger

-Oliver is possibly a Berger Picard

-Hal is definitely a Ridgeback, stubborn lol

[duketectivecomics]

You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial. 

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this.  I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao) 

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

[whetstonefires]

Do you think the DC fandom maybe, Infantilizes Tim a little too much? Like for a rich kid character who's main trauma for a long time was a getting left home alone too much there's an oddly amount of meta abt how much how much his parents hurt him~ compared to, y'know the two poor characters who grew up with physically abusive dad's+druggie mom's, or the two that were raised assassin cult's, etc

…well, yeah, I do kind of think that? His whole schtick for so long was being too old for his age in ways that didn’t sacrifice his jokey, relatable teenager energies. It’s weird how little of that we see anymore, sometimes.

And then DC broke him and discarded him and he’s sort of awkwardly hanging around getting reimagined as more woobie with every fan generation. It is weird!

But tbh I do get it. And I think the reason his parents’ failure of him and his vulnerability get played up so much, and Jason and Steph’s sufferings (while used a lot for things like motivation and context) not dwelt on quite so much in the same lugubrious style, are kind of the same reason.

Which is that canon didn’t commit to it. Jason and Steph’s experiences with bad parenting were foregrounded and retconned more dramatically awful several times. (There’s some definite classism in how that was approached imo, and I’m never budging on being mad about DC retconning out Catherine being sick and then ignoring her forever in all Jason characterization because a drug death invalidates a person ig, great message during the opioid crisis guys.)

They engaged and coped with it–Steph (and Cass, our #1 canon batfam parental abuse victim) pretty directly, Jason a little less so because of the dubious and fluctuating canon status of most of the content more specific than ‘poverty, homelessness, theft, parental drugs and crime in there somewhere,’ so most of his parent issues have been focused on Bruce. He sure has dug into them tho. 😂 Rarely well or productively, thanks DC, but it’s explicitly part of his character, is my point.

Whereas upper-middle-class Tim was always treated by the narrative as fortunate and unharmed by his experiences with his parents. Even though they were clearly behaving badly in several ways, and Tim showed signs of being harmed by it.

Tim outside of immediate moments of frustration always was of the opinion he was Fine, and Very Fortunate Actually.

Therefore a huge chunk of the numerous everyone who’s got parent-related mental and emotional harm, but has struggled to have that validated and hasn’t responded with a lot of anger toward the parent, identifies with Tim. The only one who’s never really lashed out at his parents for fucking up with him. The one who still needs it explored, because canon ultimately didn’t.

[editing post to put in a readmore because lol it’s long, post otherwise unchanged]

(Dick obviously didn’t ever have any Issues with the Graysons, but he Angry Teenagered at Bruce so hard it changed Bruce’s characterization permanently, rip.)

The things Jason, Steph, and Cass have been through are dramatic, obvious, and fit stereotypes because that’s what they’re based on.

That’s important content to have, but because it’s right out there in your face even people who identify with it quite a lot are less likely to feel the need to work all the way through it again in fanworks. That part’s there. It’s text.

(Well actually Jason having been physically abused kind of wasn’t? I think? It was mostly assumed on the basis of stereotyping and Jason’s not caring about the man much even as he felt possessive of information about his death, which is valid. I don’t actually know what’s up with Willis now, Lobdell did some weird shit that lacked emotional resonance or staying power because he’s Lobdell and has no soul.

Cass’ wandering years are also ludicrously underdeveloped. But very very few comics fans or writers can personally relate to being amazing child warriors with no grasp of language living feral under bridges. That part of her life is consistently represented in terms of absences, in terms of its deviation from the norm and the deficits of normality it left her with, which is typical but unfortunate.) 

-

The interesting things to do with these characters are often informed by the bad stuff in their childhoods, but there’s relatively rarely that much more to say about the fact that those things were bad. They know they’re bad. They’ve had a lot of on-panel rage about it, as discussed above. Steph and Cass both beat the shit out of their dads.

Jason is, in fandom especially, a sort of Platonic ideal of a kid who’s mad about his bad childhood and really bad at figuring out where to point that rage.

(Damian is a whole other kettle of fish, because he’s been lumbered by so many detailed retcons coming so fast no two people can seem to construct compatible models of what his early childhood was like, and even more because he’s still ‘a child’ enough that he’s necessarily in a different stage of processing than someone who’s officially only a few years older than him at this point, but still functionally 8 and also 20 years older, and whose parents are no longer in the picture to continue screwing up.

Also there’s no question that if he brings up an abusive thing the League did, he will be validated by his current environment about his realization that it was in fact bad. There’s a lot of fic on that theme! But it doesn’t have the same tone precisely because it is usually understood that that support will be there if he wants it. Realizing that his previous context contained things that were wrong keeps being made the focus of his arc.)

The badness of Tim’s childhood, on the other hand, was mainly in subtext. Even when we were clearly meant to understand Jack was fucking up, like when he canceled plans with Tim at the last minute to go on a date with Tim’s stepmother, or that infamous time he came to apologize for not being a great parent and got mad Tim was distracted by a crisis on TV so he flew into a rage and took the TV and smashed it and was like ‘that’ll teach you,’ it wasn’t leaned into.

The story didn’t treat Jack as a minor villain to be overcome but like a sort of environmental hazard of childhood, like homework, to be endured and coped with. Tim said things like ‘it’s fine’ and ‘at least he left the computer.’

(And like. It’s not about having a TV and computer in his room. It’s about not letting a child have boundaries, pointedly not respecting a child’s possessions, creating an emotionally insecure environment, punishing minor infractions in proportion to their momentary impact on your own ego, physically lashing out at a proxy for the child…)

Rather like Tom King later didn’t understand about the punching from Bruce, whoever did that story (probably Dixon? I don’t care enough to check) did not understand how serious a case of bad parenting that scene was. That is most definitely textbook abusive behavior. (It’s a hell of a lot more common abusive behavior than being a lame supervillain or shooting you when you screw up, and a lot more specific than ‘was a thug, might have hit me, dead now.’)

And Tim was never allowed to be mad at his parents about it. It was fine. He needed to be ignored so he had the freedom to be Robin. He deserved his dad being mad at him because he was keeping secrets. He complained too much, although objectively he did not.

The universe punished him for ‘complaining,’ more than once. We cut straight from him shunting aside his disappointment that his postcard from his parents was just to say they weren’t coming home yet after all with ‘if it will stop all the fights they’ve been having lately it’s more than fine’ to them getting kidnapped.

He agreed not to come on the rescue mission. His mom never made it home, and his dad was in a coma for a while. And then ultimately Jack died as a result of Tim’s decision to be Robin, immediately after finally deciding to accept it.

So Tim walks around feeling a huge burden of responsibility for his parents’ deaths, and completely unable to process any hurt they did him as real or valid, especially in comparison with the far more blatant awfulness other people have been through, and canon is clearly never going to address it. Or even acknowledge it properly.

Let me repeat that because it’s kind of my main point:

People are fixated on getting Tim’s emotional abuse validated because that’s an incredibly important step in recovering from emotional abuse, and it’s one canon consistently denied him.

How ‘bad’ things are ‘in comparison to’ problems other people have is a bad and unhealthy way to engage with trauma. Okay? That’s just a really harmful framework to apply to pain.

It’s also a way that both Tim and people with experiences similar to Tim’s are encouraged to engage with their own experiences, compounding the existing problems.

So. Not a form of relatable DC was ever actually aiming for when they tried so hard (and pretty effectively) to make him a relatable character as Robin, but an enduring one for a lot of fans.

-

So Tim’s childhood is a natural target for fanworks in a different way than the traumas that have been made explicit and taken seriously by the text. And then a lot of that got compounded by the way the introduction of Damian as Robin was handled, and the lack of resolution that got. And his current status as not quite having a place in the family anymore.

So between the level of projection encouraged by that context and how relatively difficult to access Tim’s Robin run has become ten years after the fact, this has led to a lot of fanworks on these themes that are based mostly on other fanworks, and stray further and further from the original content.

So at this point there’s an entire wing of Tim’s fandom wherein this side of him has expanded enormously, and he primarily exists to suffer, frequently in ways that 1) escalate to a point that is inarguably ‘valid’ and hard to dismiss and 2) set him up to rebound from it in whatever way the writer finds emotionally satisfying or useful–being ultimately cared for and reassured by people who value him (the most infantilizing option but like, popular for obvious reasons), or unveiling his brilliant scheme that was causing him to pretend to be passive in the face of mistreatment, or turning around and using his genius ninja skills to wrest power back from his abusers, or just laying down some sick burns about being treated fairly.

But not that many of the last one, because that’s mostly done with other batfam members.

Tim’s become a vehicle for a lot of vicarious coping that Steph and Jason just aren’t appropriate for, because they get angry and they get even. And those are stories that exist already, so there’s less scope for telling your own.

And because Jason’s reaction pattern is ultimately so masculine (i’ll make them all sorry! with my guns! blam blam!) while Tim’s is pretty gender-neutral, the demographics of fanfic mean that the bulk of the people using Tim vicariously in this manner are female-aligned, which has over time feminized this archetype of him a lot. Sometimes in ways I find really uncomfortable, like there’s a lot of forced pregnancy stuff which activates my panic buttons. x.x

But, ultimately, it’s fandom. People are going to do what they’re going to do, DC in their perpetual fail has hung Tim out to dry in narrative terms, and I’d rather the people who are using Tim for victimization narratives over the people who can’t dismiss or discredit him fast enough now that his position has been filled. 🤷‍♀️ What we gonna do? Fave’s in an awkward spot. DC hates us. This is the life in this comic book pit. XD

-

Also if you’re the same anon who left me a callout about op of that weird Steph post in my inbox, or if you aren’t @ that person, 1) I refuse to get involved so I’m not answering that ask 2) those aren’t even particularly dramatic fandom crimes? That’s pretty normal? That’s just…Caring Too Much About Ships And Disagreeing With Me.

Do I also feel those opinions are kinda bad? Yeah. But I disagree with everyone about something. Chill.

[cryptocism]

So since pretty much everyone agrees that Tim needs a name change, and I think most people dislike the first two RR costumes (I dislike the pretty much Robin one too, because it seems like he hasn’t accept losing Robin, when I feel a lot of his comics right after Bruce W died was about that?) which leads me to: What do you think Tim’s costume would look like if he got a good outfit, and what name?

o yeah i was not a fan of the cowl. and the n52 design is just… so busy and excessively accessorised (excessorised???) - i drew it a couple times for this project im workin on and the whole process was me squinting at reference panels and whispering softly but passionately “what the fuck” - and i agree on the rebirth RR design, it looks more derivative of dick and jasons retconned robin costumes than inspired by tims og 80s design (however. the unternet costume - its simple and appealing and clearly nightwing-inspired and i am a fan, also the giant scythe/halberd/mace thing was so ridiculous i loved it)

which is why i thank pat gleason for my life bc tims new outfit is such a good modernisation of his original robin design. so i mean to answer ur question i think tim has a p good design right now (although not for long i guess since they announced hed get a new look/codename soon) BUT if i were in charge of debuting a new design and name… hm……….

whatever his new name is, it’d preferably have something to do with wherever his personal storyline is headed, which i dont know, and for all my complaining abt how red robin is a shit name i dont actually have great alternatives lol. i did see somewhere the suggestion for the name “Cardinal” which i dont hate, so ill use that as a placeholder for now (although “Halcyon” is an interesting option)

tangentially, my personal preference for his robin graduation would be a miniseries featuring tim and damian both as robin, begrudgingly having to work together to fight some greater enemy and becoming true brothers along the way. ending with tim giving damian his blessing to be robin (a post-mantle blessing but still) with the first amicable passing on of the robin title literally ever

as for Look: his new design should a) accurately reflect his character b) mesh well with whatever tone his personal storyline is going for c) be a natural progression of gleasons newest iteration while still d) able to stand as its own iconic look

i always thought tim would do really well in a more grounded noir-style detective story, both using and especially subverting the tropes of the genre (for instance tim befriends every femme fatale and romances absolutely zero of them. theyre pals and have weekly movie nights or smthn) obvs using some of the mystery elements to springboard into classic comic wild times etc etc. theres also a great opportunity to include some more cyberpunk aesthetics to the look and feel ofthe story

i.e. tim is part of the waynetech r&d teams, working with them to develop new technologies, and proceeding to test out some of the prototypes while doing vigilante work (bc terry had to get his rocket boots from somewhere ok). gotham is still gotham, but its starting to see some of that neo-futuristic/blade runner flavour from batman beyond.

so. cyberpunk detective story starring cha boy tim drake. im not gonna draw it rn but lemme just gather some ref elements here in case i ever do

first off - motorcycle, obviously. redbird is back babey and this time its a two-wheeler. all his gear would be modded the hell out of, but the motorcycle itself would be an approximate balance of 70% ducati and 30% tron lightcycle situation. a speedy bike with ample room for the edgy overkill batfam aesthetic, with maybe a little akira in there who knows

same goes for helmet; 70/30 on this modern/cyberpunk situation. heres a quickly photoshopped “cardinal” helmet lol 

although theres totally room for some daft-punk leds in there. serving as a heads up display AND a fun neon aesthetic. I really want to play into that John Wick neo-noir situation.

besides that… ive got a preference for street style over the superhero spandex, so… detective jacket. every detective has a good jacket. norm breyfogle made a comment on his early tim robin designs that itd be pretty either/or on jacket vs cape, merging the two looked a little silly. for robin they probably decided on cape to keep things classic, but for cardinal i can do what i want

and i want to bring back some of this popped collar.

which i basically did for that other tim design i drew, which i still like, so this one would probably be at least a lil borrowed from that. 

attempting to merge cape/jacket might end up smthn like these:

which admittedly i like. 

admittedly… i do also like the concept of wings introduced in tims n52 design, i just think they couldve been hidden/incorporated better

greig rapson had a sweet robin design that had a sort of flight-suit (which dove into the actual mechanics??? i love) and since id want to dive into tim testing out waynetech prototypes, its a pretty good natural progression from him to terrys glider thing

the whole ensemble would be fairly understated however - enough to semi blend in with any crowd, hero or civilian. after all the story focus would be just as much about solving the mystery as it is punching the bad guy

the various interchangeable gadgets would be both prototypes of terrys eventual batsuit, and also all the failed prototypes that never managed to get off the ground. just to add an element of tension/plot devices wherein tims gear could break or malfunction pretty much anytime.

im fixated on this rocket boot situation though so itd be a paired down version of terrys eventual seamless/invisible design. still noticable and clunky, but working with the sleek modernish style outlined by gleason

smthn almost similar to the prowler actually from spiderverse - as in: Clearly Rocketboots, and clearly diy’d the shit out of, but still working with that Aesthetic

(most of the screencaps of prowler are dark af so im taking this from jesus alonso iglesias concept art) 

im debating on the addition of more overtly birdlike/cyberpunk elements, so ill add this here cause its dope as fuck (from ahmet atil akar). 

and a lot of batclan capes tend to end with that concave spiked look, which works great for bats but not really for birds. a tailcoat might emulate the bird tail, but it also might evoke Penguin a lil too much idk.

also in the interest of keeping everything within the same sort of design language, i would Love to see some new villains emulating deconstructionist/architectural kawakubo fashion:

like could you imagine the supervillain potential

so uhhh yeah. budding cyberpunk detective story with a little noir and a little technological advancement progressing in fits and starts. taking from the gleason foundation with heavy black featuring brighter coloured accents and modern sleekness, made a little dorky via prototype technology, with some extra neon blade runner shit thrown in there.

depending on how much i love or hate the new codename/design reveal i might draw this via inspired motivation or spiteful motivation lol

[dyketectivecomics]

@beyondthetemples-ooc

Robin’s Reckoning was the two parter in BTAS that covered Dick Grayson’s origin as Robin as well as his quest to avenge his parent’s deaths by putting away Tony Zucco. It handled the whole story beautifully (as BTAS tends to do lmao) and is just all around so incredibly faithful to the story & just wonderfully made??? iirc this was one of the eps that was nominated/won an emmy? And for GREAT reason too. There’s a REASON BTAS is considered the Definitive Batman cartoon as well as a Definitive cartoon in general. So yeah. it gets two thumbs WAY up from me. plz watch it!!! (its on the DCU app so like, no excuses to NOT watch haha)

But anyways, yeah, I’m obvsly not expecting Titans to do a shot-for-shot remake of that story bc that would be RIDICULOUS but like. Im taking Issue with how they’ve handled this story so far (thoughts under the cut)

when you change the story’s major points: Dick being a witness to the extortion &/or sabotage, Bruce trying & failing to reach out (bc yeah he’s distant but he Tried in his Own Way ofc), and ofc Dick joining Bruce’s crusade bc of that similar drive for justice spawning from the whole incident. (which hasnt quite been adequately covered imo over the course of now 6???? eps????)

The first two are esp major points that they wrote themselves into a corner over now. Bc that connect between Dick KNOWING that Tony Zucco is responsible and now him only being SUSPECTED? It kinda cheapens the choice Dick makes when first going after Zucco. NOT to mention that (at least in BTAS) dick DOES decide to let the law run its course! He doesnt seek his own revenge! He doesnt let Zucco die when he has every opportunity to!

Side rant: Dick Grayson has made the choice to kill in the past. He’s the kind of character, though, who shows at least some remorse over that fact and will go introspective over whether its the right choice. He’s the kind of character who has to reconcile his choices after the fact, but who’d ultimately make his peace.

This makes him a great juxtaposition to Both Bruce & Jason. One that refuses to kill on principle/moral code. And another who almost relishes the idea of the Justice that it can bring. Dick is a character that can provide an excellent opportunity to explore more of a middle ground between the two.

Especially bc while he can be angry & cross a line on occasion. He’s also the kind to bring himself back from that place and make his peace with it in time. And i do still see that potential from this character in Titans now. It’s just the choices that they’re making so far that have me... concerned.

I don’t mind them trying a new angle with these characters (New Plot Potential with Kory having amnesia? Awesome! Raven being raised totally on Earth? Odd, but I'm intrigued to see where they go with this.) but... when you change too many elements in a story like Dick’s, it starts to fall apart if you're not too careful. And for me, thats what feels off about Dick’s story right now. They’re not giving him a Totally New Origin like Kory & Raven. They’re not changing Minor Details to fit a new narrative like Gars (altho i have a whole OTHER rant abt the Chief being the one to save him rather than his GENETICIST PARENTS?). They’re changing Key Details that helped make so much of Dick’s story Iconic and Important. The key factors that played into HIS GUILT. which now feels a little unjustified/paranoid bc he WASNT a witness in quite the same way. 

i’ve been mulling this over for the past few episodes and i didn't rlly want to say too much negative abt the show bc I’m enjoying it just Fine overall. but like... its stuff like this that makes it hard for me Personally bc Im still waiting for the right Payoff for it. I’m gonna hold out hope that this minor adjustments will be followed up on & that they’ll adjust characterization accordingly but like... it doesnt sit right with me right now. 

[zonerz]

All of the questions for the shipping thing 😈

AAAAAAAAA Im gonna d i e I hope ur happy abt this long post u dork

Talk about the first ship you ever had.Dang dude,,,,,,, makin me think,,,,,, I suppose it was Jay and Nya from Ninjago?? I thought they were cute but wasnt like SUPER into it, the other one that I was into was me shipping an “OC” with Lloyd L m a oTalk about three of the most important ships throughout your life.Three most important? Uhhhh idk abt important exactly, like idk what the whole requirements for one being more important than another would be. Though, the main one that always makes me happy, no matter the circumstance, is McHanzo. Idk what it is about it but it always makes me smile and helped cheer me up plenty of times throughout the year hahaWhat’s your current OTP?McHanzo or Sonadow tbhWhat’s your current NOTP?shi//ma//da//cestDo you have any poly ships?Yes with some of my OCs!!How do you feel about love triangles?They CAN be done right but most of the time im just over here like, ‘UGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH No one c a r e s’How do you feel about RPF?Idk what that stands for 3Have you ever shipped yourself with a character?Not myself, but my OCs. Tho I suppose my first ever OC was very similar in looks so I suppose partiallyDo you have many ships that never got together at all?Lmao yeah man, most people seem to forget that McHanzo started out as a crack ship hahaDo you ship any characters that have never met?See the previous statementTalk about your favorite first kiss.Wonderbat in the Starcrossed episode. It was gr8 man. Kissing to blend in with the crowd.Have you ever been disappointed when your ship finally got together?The Nya-Jay-Cole love triangle was forced and stupid. LETTHEMBEHAPPY–Has a ship ever broken your heart?HAVE YOU EVER READ UNDER THE WISTERIA TREE? IVE NEVER BEEN SO EMOTIONAL OVER A FIC. I SOBBED FOR A GOOD HOUR AFTERWARDS MANHow do you feel about will they/won’t they?I think it depends on the material, like Wonderbat in JL was a good one cause we still got content for it here and there but it was never ‘official’ but it wasnt relentlessly teased at teither, it wasnt a main focus nor dragged down the show. It was acceptable cuz they were also, yknow superheroes and Bruce isnt the type of character to just suddenly settle down

But otherwise I think it can get really annoying and unnecessary if done wrongHave you ever “shipped at first sight”?Yeah lolTalk about a ship you initially disliked.Im p sure I used to be p decently opposed to Sonadow at first, because at the time I was super into Sonamy (which I’ll talk abt laterrr) though I learned more of the reasoning behind it and was like ‘oh! This is p decent’ and since Ive re-entered the Snoc fandom, Ive sorta reanalyzed my ships and looked into what real chemistry co9uld be there and frankly I just think that Sonadow has a lot of working potential, it reminds me of how I felt about McHanzo at first; They have a lot of working potential and thats what I love building off of. They have the potential to work really well together because the balance each other’s personalities and senses out (Shads bringing a sense of realism and Sonic bringing a lightheartedness) and neither has to worry about the other getting into trouble/hurt/being used against them because they’re both extremely capable of handling themselves. The difference between them and a ship like Mchanzo though is that they’ve already previously worked together and interacted on multiple occasions.

Im sorry I just have a LOT to say abt the ships I love ha h a–Also Ive noticed I have a tendacy to like ships where the partners balance each other?? God im predictableTalk about a pairing you’ve stopped shipping romantically.Sonamy has sort’ve dropped off the radar for me (except in Boom and maybe in X) at least in a more serious regard. Idk how to quite get how I feel into words r i pTalk about a moment which made you question an entire ship.I was actually watching a DHT (I think thats his name idk im tired lol) Top ten abt his personal opinions on ships? Cuz I like hearing other people’s opinions and point of views!! And I mean idk his points with Sonamy were really true and while I still think Sonamy is really cute and has gotten a bit less violent in recent years, the negatives at this point are sortve outweighing the positives atm imo? So it was just kinda like ‘huh. Thats tru’Have you ever shipped something despite yourself?No..? Idk if Im exactly understanding the question but if its asking if I still shipped smth even if it was against my morals? Then a definite no, if its nasty, its nasty imoTalk about a ship you feel alone in shipping.Wonderbat fandom where r u??Is there a ship you just don’t get, but have nothing against?The only ones I can really think of are Shadilver and Sonouge?? :00 Im just curious as to like the origin or reasoning behind the ships! I love hearing people’s reasons beyond “They look nice together” yknow? HahaWhich of your ships have the best chemistry?WONDERBATWONDERBATWONDERBATWONDERBAT–Which of your ships deserve better writing?Sonamy,,,, Jaya,,, //criesDo you mostly ship canon pairings?It depends! But a lot of times I end up soHave you ever shipped a pairing before you even started watching the show/movie simply because of gifs and graphics or similar?I probably have LMAOHave you noticed a pattern in your shipping? Is there a romantic dynamic you’re more drawn to?yEAHI like the dark broody one and the lighthearted cheery one where theyre opposite but not so much that they never get along. I like ones where its like sun and moon, where they balance each other out and both bring something to the table. Where its mutual.Is there a ship you’ve shipped for most of your life?Idk man, I didnt really have ships before I was 10 so like–Does shipping come easily to you?Somewhat, I need some good and moral reasons to ship two ppl before I turn into shipping puddy–Do you need to ship something to really enjoy a movie/book/tv show/comic?No, but if there’s a rlly good ship that I enjoy in the content then it definitely boosts how much enjoyment I get out of it hahaName a couple of fandoms in which you have no ships.I can only rlly say that for rlly obscure fandoms, like Ranger’s Apprentice. There’s also the FNAF book-verseTalk about one of your favorite headcanons for a ship you love.For Sonic and Shads I read this one thing ages ago abt Sonic teaching Shadow all the meanings each flower type and color portrays so them giving each other meaningful bouquets n shit is RLLY CUTE AND I LOVE THAT KIND OF STUFF OKAY,,,,,,Share five must-read fics.UNDER THE WISTERIA TREE IS EQUAL TO FIVE MUST READS! gO READ IT! (BUT BE PREPARED FOR TEARS AND LOTS OF THEM)Name your favorite fanartist(s).uHHHH @ludwigplayingthetrombone (Their expression are so soft,,,, n sweet,,, its so fluffy n good,,,) Share your favorite fanmix for your OTP.I dont have a favorite so just go look up some Everytime we touch PMVRecommend 1-5 shipper blogs.¯\_(ツ)_/¯Do you create fanmixes/gif sets/fanart/fic/fanvids and so on for you ships?I draw,,,, every once in a blue moon,,,,Do you have a favorite trope and/or AU for your OTP?Mutual pining and dorky fluffDo you like and use ship names?Yes!!!Is there a fictional relationship you’d really want for yourself?Nah boi Im ace lolIf you could change one thing about your OTP, what would that be?More interactions,,,, pl z ,,,,(diduknow that the “Pretty handy with that bow!” vl came out on my birthday last year?? Best gift man, thanks Blizzard, love ya)

[garpen]

I'm telling my therapist on you :(

had some batman/batfam thoughts

(obligatory reminder that ive only read a handful of comics, im workin on changing that but for now most of my knowledge ive gotten through the fandom. would love any comic recs lol)

i do enjoy the idea of the batkids all resembling bruce in some way or another, whether that be through physical features or mannerisms or whatever. i also REALLY like the idea of the batkids each resembling bruces parents in whatever way. so, how about this:

when bruce looks at his children and sees his parents, he usually sees thomas in them. dick just has this way of talking to people thats all thomas, and he gets a dimple in his left cheek when he smiles, just like bruce, and like thomas. tim has the sharp mind and dry, witty humor bruce remembers looking up to in his father. cass is so caring, so determined to help, just like thomas was, and the way she matches his facial expressions is almost uncanny sometimes. when duke laughs, bruce sometimes thinks, just for a moment, that hes hearing his father. and, of course, damian bears a resemblance to his paternal grandfather thats becoming quite striking as he grows up.

when bruce looks at his children and sees his parents, he usually sees thomas. but jason? jason is the spitting image of martha wayne. he has the shape of her eyes, the slope of her nose (though jasons is quite crooked now), the same curly, unruly hair that shines reddish-brown in the sunlight. martha was a strong, plump woman with a sharp tongue, kind eyes, and a smile that felt like home. when jason came back, hed regained the height and weight that malnutrition stole from him, and, fueled by his rage, his words are just as deadly as his weapons. but, despite everything, the protectiveness, the kindness in his eyes he had as robin never left, and bruce rarely gets to see jason smile these days, but when he does, it fills him with a sense of comfort he hasnt felt in so many years.

from the beginning, bruce looked at jason and saw martha. and in his mind, the memories of kneeling in the rubble of a warehouse, holding the still body of his son, begging him to wake up, and kneeling in a dark alleyway, holding the still body of his mother, begging her to wake up, are irreparably fused.