#this was just meant to be a cersei post but then i remembered this is how people talk about all women vying for power in asoiaf

[branwinged]

so, someone called cersei a white feminist on one of my posts (not putting them on blast, don't seek them out), and i feel compelled to point out that contemporary comparisons like this don't always work well.

westeros is a pseudo medieval world with no history of a feminist movement and where all women are systemically barred from possessing political authority in their own right. power is derived from their male relations, specifically fathers and husbands. see, the way catelyn has to rally the men in her father's name when she tries to arrest tyrion in agot. in such a world, when characters like cersei and rhaenyra desire to gain the same social and legal benefits afforded to men, to denigrate their efforts right out of hand (which is often what labels such as 'girlboss' and 'white feminist' are accomplishing), is on some level, refusing to engage the premise.

i don't feel it's insightful to call these characters white feminists because their political reality is very different from ours. this doesn't even work as a criticism of the way they're written by the author, because the text certainly isn't neglecting racial and class issues in order to simply tell a story centred around the personal empowerment of two highly privileged women. they are both royalty who still enjoy power derived from an unjust feudal hierarchy, power which they have exercised to maintain their positions in said hierarchy. but at the same time, the desire for meaningful participation in the politics of the realm is not being condemned. nowhere is the implication that they shouldn't have tried to resist their socially ordained marginalisation at all. and we know the feudal patriarchy of westeros won't allow a woman to possess political power in her own right without the constant threat of hegemonic violence. this is the tragedy of both characters. westeros doesn't respect their authority and in order to command that respect they must go to war, but their support of patriarchal institutions and methods of violence eventually makes them tyrants. and the miserable end that rhaenyra meets (one that cersei will likely share) is critiquing both the hegemonic violence required to ascend and keep hold of the iron throne and the misogyny inherent in the system.

asoiaf is historical fantasy, the thing about stories set in the past is that you're being invited to consider a world with different models than ours. not everything is going to have a 1:1 contemporary equivalent, especially not in a fantasy series. and when readers try to force comparisons anyway, they ignore the actual social systems that influence and explain the motivations of these characters, and also often end up creating dishonest, far less sympathetic versions of them (see, alicent being seriously labelled a tradwife). and finally, these characters are narrative tools in service to the story. cersei and rhaenyra are not a moral lesson in the "right" or "wrong" way to resist gendered oppression, but simply one aspect of asoiaf's exploration of women navigating power in westeros. catelyn and alicent are another.

[a-libra-writes]

Uuugghhh i misclicked and deleted a post i was working on......... I still remember the prompt but 💀😫 OG request was ASOIAF characters reacting to their s/o surviving an assassination attempt, another nonny wanted something similar, so I combined!

Obvs there will be mentions of blood, angst, and so on! We got: Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, Asha (Yara), Victarion, Brandon, Ned, Benjen, Brynden, Oberyn, Doran, Brienne

Cersei - Woe to the messenger who brings this news to her; the only thing worse about Cersei finding out is her finding out days after it happens. She's livid, and has no shortage of people to blame and suspect. The idea that this attempt is the consequence of her own machinations and manipulations does not to occur to her, or at least - she quickly shoves that thought aside.

She has her sick room moved closer to her own, and threatens the hell out of Pycelle to ensure a speedy recovery. The maids are threatened as well, though eventually Cersei's paranoia whittles them down to just one or two. She visits when you're awake, and either fusses over your comfort or doggedly acts as though everything is fine and you'll be up in no time - even if you're still sickly and wan. Yes, there's ... some denial there, and in rare moments, the facade and denial will melt, and Cersei will express genuine fear that you may have died.

Jaime - There's several minute of disbelief when he hears what happened. Then the anger rushes over him at once - who did it? And where was he to defend you? Then suspicion. Could his sister have found out about you two? Jaime ought to wait until it's safe to visit you, when he can't be seen - but he's never been good at fighting his whims.

Once at your side, he's clearly anxious and discomforted at how tired and sickly you look. His usual flippant, sarcastic front only lasts a few minutes. He gives in, his shoulders slump and you can see the clear anxiety and anger in his bright green eyes. He comes into your chambers every other day, but you aren't aware how often he hovers around the door and hall, eager for the assassin to come again so he might kill them with his own hands.

Tywin - Any attempt on your life was almost certainly meant to send a message to him. That's how he'll always see it, anyway, and Tywin will answer swiftly. He'll probably mutilate or execute your poor excuses for guards, and the maester understands your recovery will go well or he'll be next on the chopping block. Next, he draws up his mental lists of suspects and cuts through them. Tywin Lannister will find out who did this. There's no uncertainty of that.

That said, he doesn't visit the first few days of your recovery - both because of the investigating he's spending late hours on, and because he genuinely doesn't want to see you in such a weak, uneasy state. He isn't willing to admit this to himself, of course, but it brings back memories of Joanna. He'd be more affected if you were stabbed versus if you were poisoned; the blood, the bandages, your pale complexion and low energy all point to the very obvious fact you nearly died, and that would have affected the normally immovable, cruel Lannister patriarch. He doesn't like reminders that he's mortal.

Tyrion - Panic and dread starts bubbling up once he hears the news and really processes it. Tyrion wants to see you right away, even if you're in no state to see visitors for a while. He already has a shortlist of possible culprits, his sister being at the top. He makes sure it's a maester he trusts whose helping your recovery, one of your personal maids he knows whose caring for you, a few guards he pays personally and knows well ... It may seem like a bit much to you, but for Tyrion, it isn't enough. He's still riddled with anxiety and worry that whoever did it will send another assassin to finish the job.

He does his best to be reassuring and light-hearted when he visits, not wanting to trouble you with all the thoughts plaguing him. He likes to bring flowers and books and such, things to brighten your day and occupy you. Tyrion tries to float the idea of moving you to a private manor rather than the Red Keep.

Asha - She's alternating between a quiet fury and outright anger, snapping at this maester and that servant to handle you better. She might push them aside and just do it herself; she can certainly stitch a wound closed, though poison is beyond her. Oh, she has a good idea of who might have done this, but that's for later. First priority is getting your guts back in place and making sure there's some kind of medicine or disinfectant in these islands.

She investigates into who the culprit might be, but still takes time to visit you in the evening. She knows you'll pull through, you're strong - but what kind of lover would she be if she didn't check in and bother you? Asha alternates between a rare tenderness and her usual light heartened jokes, whichever works best on cheering you up.

Victarion - So. The good news is he didn't kill the messenger. The bad news is he's close to strangling the maester that was dragged in to treat you. Victarion has no way of figuring out who did this or how, so anyone is open to his wrath. He might eventually have suspicions, but it'll be his brothers and Asha who will do most of the investigating (if they bother). This rattles Victarion more than he's willing to admit.

It's difficult to visit when you're incoherent and pale, so he waits until you're more stable, even if all these negative emotions bite at him. There's anxiety, fear, powerlessness; all things he's worked to avoid and outrun. He probably doesn't even admit how badly he'd shaken. When you're finally awake and talking, that lessens some of the burden. Then he can pretend you're completely fine, and you'll recover quickly. He doesn't want to linger in the sickroom, so he just has you moved to your shared bedchambers. .... Probably for the best, since they get cleaned more often.

Brandon - He's beside himself with anger and worry. How did this happen? Weren't his best guards with you? Who was the culprit - was this a ploy to get to him? Intrigue is not his strong suit; he can't bruteforce his way through this, and it's beyond frustrating - it's just painful. He wants a culprit so he has someone to throttle.

Brandon makes sure you're as comfortable. He may not know much about treating wounds, but he knows you're in pain and wants to help in any way he can. This leads to him hovering too much, and the maester has had to kick him out so you can get rest. You're supposed to be recovering in the sickroom, but Brandon still wants to sleep next to you. It's half paranoia that something might happen again, and half he doesn't want you to be lonely. Yes, he's the actual lonely one ...

Ned - It takes a few hours, perhaps a day, for the reality of what happened to sink in ... and then the dread and anger follows. He keeps these emotions inside, of course, wanting to focus on who could have done this and why. Was it because of his own doing, or was this assassin after you specifically? He's never been one to uncover and follow schemes, and that shortcoming is especially obvious and frustrating now.

But when he visits your sickbed, Ned tries to push all that aside. He wants to make sure you're recovering and cared for, and while he follows the maester's instructions, he's also willing to go against them for your comfort, like if you want to be moved to back to your shared bedchambers. It's hard for Ned to deny you anything to begin with, he is absolutely going to let you curl up with him because it helps you feel better and safer, wounds be damned.

Benjen - The solemnity that comes over his long face startles his fellow Brothers. Of course this is no laughing matter, but the dark cloud that passes over his features and makes those grey eyes look so cold is startling. He wants to go beyond the Wall immediately and kill whoever did it, but he knows that's foolish. He has to grit his teeth and wait, because they'll surely send more.

He focuses on taking care of you. While they do have Maester Aemond, the old man's eyes make it tricky to do any kind of surgery. When you're awake and recovering, Benjen does his best to give you his soft smiles and usual jokes, though they're more muted than before. He hopes you don't notice how tired and anxious he's feeling. He tries to avoid assignments that'll send him away from Castle Black, and he sneaks into your sick room to sleep beside you whenever he can get away with it.

Brynden - The very cowardice of the act boils his blood. Whoever wanted to do this to you should have gone through him - he hates that he wasn't there when you needed him. Hasn't Brynden always said he'd protect you? If the attempt was done with poison, he's even more bitter. It's easy to get you the care you need, but he's still troubled, sitting at your bedside and wearing a troubled expression that doesn't go away until you wake up.

He tries to smile and comfort you, but his anger at the situation is obvious. When he's not out investigating what happened, he's at your side. He's keeping you company and playing "a poor nurse", so he says, but you know it's also to keep you protected. He comes in with full armor and his sword, after all. You sense he isn't sleeping well, either; he'd rather spend the late hours guarding you as you sleep.

Oberyn - It's not surprising that he reacts with anger. Oberyn would've been right there at your side, wanting to stop the bleeding himself, carrying you all the way to the maester while barking at guards to sweep the area. He'd go out on his own in a heartbeat, but assuring you're stable comes first. The minute you were, though - he's gone, spear in hand and wanting to find out what happened. Between himself and Doran, the assassin - or at least whoever hired them - can't stay anonymous for long.

While you're recovering, he does all he can for you. Do you want a dozen pillows, plenty of flowers, books, music? Company or none? Any food or drink - even if the maester cautions against specific ones - will be your's. Oberyn spares no expense, the guilt and anger he feels at "letting" this happen assuaged just slightly every time he grants a request. He prefers you be moved to your shared bedchambers rather than a sick room, both so he can protect you and so you don't feel so isolated.

Doran - His schooled, calm expression finally cracks when he hears the news. He wants to get up at once, to rush to the messenger and shake them, but he has to compose himself. Doran knows these things happen, and he already has clear suspicions of whose responsible, but that doesn't help his racing mind. He waits until the maester has done his job and you're stable before visiting you - for one, he has to calm himself, and two, he has to act fast if he hopes to retaliate.

Doran makes sure you have the utmost comfort while you recover, much like his brother, though he's not nearly as over-indulgent. He often spends time with you in your sickroom, reading you stories or just talking while holding your hand and petting your hair. He has a wonderful bedside manner helped by his steady presence and voice; it's near impossible to pick up the anger and injustice he's feeling. He doesn't want to subject his paramour to that. You should just focus on resting.

Brienne - She feels a terrible chill come over her, and then the adrenaline. She jumps to action. If the assassin is foolish enough to attempt it while Brienne is within shouting distance - they're dead, period, she will not let them escape after they did such a thing. But if it was poison, or a near-fatal wound - she may have to just to get you help. She gathers you up in her arms and easily carries you to help, shouting for a maester or healer, regardless of it was the middle of the night or day. She'll drag one out of a castle if need be.

Brienne wants to sit in while you're being treated, but she knows she shouldn't. She's stewing in anxiety and worry, wondering if she could've done something differently. Once you're awake and stable, it's like a weight has been lifted off. She still has plans for the assassin if they weren't caught - but first, she needs to focus on you. The adrenaline finally runs out once she hears your voice and has your hand to hold. She's so relieved she could just crash next to you, but no, you need her to be steady and strong.

[la-pheacienne]

Oh so D x D were right in depicting Jaime x Cersei sex scene in the book as a clear cut rape scene. No, you say? What I remember of that scene in the book is that it was dub-con AT BEST, and this AFTER taking into account the author's own very obvious misogynistic bias (Watsonian vs Doylist perspective) and JC's specific dynamic of being the same person in two bodies and their lack of autonomy in the face of one another and their fucked up sick relationship in general. After taking into account all of these quite important factors, this book scene is still technically a dub-con sex scene, under a lenient reading which I'm willing to give to Jaime because again, I'm taking into account all these factors. If someone chooses to see this scene in the book as a clear cut rape scene, it is understandable to me.

D x D took a dub-con sex scene with a shit ton of underlying complexities underneath and turned it to a clear cut rape scene. Okay! Not The Best in my personal opinion! But still, Not So Atrocious! After all, how are you gonna depict on TV with absolute accuracy with the limited time you have something that is pretty complicated in the book and already kind of still comes across as dub-con or at even dangerously close to rape? Oh but I vaguely remember seeing posts in the lannister crowd about the show!scene being a depiction of "gratuitous violence" and "oversimplifying the dynamic". Am I wrong? I also agreed with the lannister crowd on this. I don't think GRRM intended to write Jaime as a rapist and Jaime comes across as a rapist in the GoT scene. I consider this to be a distortion of canon, despite the fact that in the book we had a real dub-con scene.

But suddently introducing out of the blue actual, very real physical domestic violence in a relationship that had NONE in the book is canonically plausible or even an improvement of canon, for the same crowd? And why is that? Because the couple has a huge age difference whereas JC were twins? So an abusive relationship or even rape is less plausible if the perpetrator is the same age as the victim? Who told you this? Daemyra is abusive because the uncle gave gifts to his underage niece? Because the couple is incestuous? In GRRM's work? You are seriously, unironically arguing that the above factors (age difference + incest) are meant to hint at a non consensual, abusive relationship in GRRM's universe? Are you for real?

Where is the acknowledgement of the author's problematic standards and worldview here? Where is the distinction between the Watsonian and the Doylist perspective here? Where is your indignation at the show runners turning up the gendered violence in ways that are not book canon? At least the JC scene was based on a real, already highly problematic sex scene. Now that the show runners came up with a brand new form of violence that did not exist in the book, what do you say? That it's fine because it's not as gratuitous as Sansa's rape arc? What about Alicent's rape arc? That's not gratuitous? Do you seriously believe that a rape arc is a necessary tool for adding complexity to a female antagonist? Really? What about Laena being burned alive? What about Aemma? I haven't seen a lot of talk about those. Are these not "gratuitous violence" in your book? Or you just don't really care right?

To sum it up. It is Problematic™ gratuitous violence hashtag male gaze only when 1) my perfect angelic fave (Sansa) is the victim or 2) when my fave is the perpetrator.

It is not gratuitous violence when 1) the narrative turns my fave from an antagonist to an underdog via rape or 2) when it makes characters I hate look worse than their book counterpart.

Hate to break this to you, this is not exactly a solid construction. The general criteria you use to identify gratuitous, non canonical violence need to be applied to all cases alike, not according to your own bias. The bias in this fandom is so shocking that it borders on gaslighting and I am looking specifically at book fans who have dragged GoT to hell and back for years and are now applauding this shitfest that is House of the Dragon for the same reasons they used to trash GoT.

I genuinely want nothing to do with that show anymore.

[atopvisenyashill]

do u remember the characters who were complimented the most by their beauty in the books?

off the top of my head (and keeping in mind i’m still on asos and haven’t reread feastdance at least since the show ended so like 3-4 years) characters who get complimented most often for beauty are -

cersei

sansa

dany

margaery

jaime (not joking, he doesn’t get called handsome, he gets called beautiful. think more brad pitt and less george clooney)

joffrey (similar to jaime, altho tbf most of the comments on his beauty come from sansa)

loras

characters who are less complimented mostly due to them not being in every book but still notable beauties include-

arianne

catelyn & lysa - i’m like 80% sure people comment on lysa being beautiful when she’s younger & less so now, but don’t quote me there. i know people comment on cat being hot af when she’s younger, and multiple people remark on her hair so she clearly still Has It, she’s just not in a position where men are throwing themselves at her feet in the series given, ya kno, the war

melisandre

roslin frey

margaery’s lady’s court - her girls, taena, and alerie are all described at some point or another as being beautiful

taena of myr - wanted to mention her specifically, people tend to think of her as striking

val the wildling

ygritte the wildling - notable that this is incredibly conditional bc jon only starts referring to her as beautiful after they start sleeping together BUT the wildlings consider her beautiful bc of her hair

rohanne webber

characters noted to be beautiful by people who are clearly fishing for a compliment to pay her (aka, She Is Beautiful To Me, I Understand Her)-

jeyne westerling - i want to add her bc you have cat, robb, and jaime all acknowledge she’s “pretty enough” but are won over by her after talking to her, which probably speaks more to how she carries herself than her actual looks. but as a westerling stan, it’s notable To Me haha

brienne - i need to include this bc the “she could almost be a lady she could almost be a knight” is one of my favorite lines in the series, it makes me crazy and i think any post about beauty that doesn’t include brienne isn’t complete. that brienne gets the “brienne the beauty” moniker bc she’s ugly even as jaime keeps thinking about how she’s beautiful in some way or another is, imo, notable in how george sees & defines beauty (very much in the eye of the beholder, and that love can make you search for beauty in someone who is objectively not beautiful according to The Societal Standards)

arya - ned compares her to lyanna (and obviously ned isn’t gonna tell his daughter “you’re an uggo my sister was hot as fuck tho”) & gendry & edric both get a lil flustered over her

ellaria sand - noted that she’s not strictly beautiful but “something draws the eye” which seems like jeyne it’s about how she carries herself than her actual looks

jeyne poole - i mean. lots of comments about how she’s pretty ish and they’re clearly meant cruelly, almost as a way of tormenting her (no fancy last name, no wolf’s blood, not even pretty enough to get someone to rescue her)

pre-asoiaf mentioned in the main series for their beauty include-

lyanna stark

ashara dayne

missy blackwood

barba bracken

rhaegar targaryen

and pre-asoiaf characters noted to be beautiful in twoiaf or f&b-

rhaenys targaryen (the conqueror)

nymeria of ny sar

rhaena the lesbian

alyssa velaryon

jocelyn baratheon

viserra targaryen

rhaenys velaryon

rhaenyra targaryen - notable that she’s considered beautiful as a child but less so as an adult (bc westeros is full of fucking weirdos)

helaena targaryen - described as being more beautiful than alicent and that’s really it

daenaera velaryon - ditto on westeros being full of weirdos lol

jaehaera targaryen - again. she is like 12 when she dies but half the realm is commenting on this beautiful child. i hate these people so much.

baela targaryen

lady sam hightower

something that’s notable is that george makes a continued distinction between “pretty” and beautiful - alysanne targaryen is considered pretty but not beautiful, for example. so there’s people like jeyne westerling who are “pretty enough” as in, not ugly, not plain, but not, as jaime puts it “beautiful enough to lose a kingdom over” as in they are drop dead, model, helen of troy type gorgeous.

that’s also why i wanted to include the “fishing for compliments” type girls bc these women are very aware that they’re not pretty enough and often wind up carrying themselves differently as a response to this - if they can’t be gorgeous they’ll be so disarming, so striking, that people will spin back around to beautiful. ygritte is the biggest example of this imo because how jon perceives her beauty is very tied to how his relationship with her develops - he purposefully conflates her beauty with her violence bc he wants to find her violence beautiful bc that would make his life infinitely easier, and after she dies he’s very clear headed that she isn’t that pretty but she is TO HIM, she is beautiful in his memory because of his feelings for her. it makes him very wary of melisandre & val as a result - because he conflates beauty and violence in ygritte, it makes him wary of other harsh & beautiful women. or take lyanna, who is remembered often as being beautiful yet in ned’s memory, this beauty is part of what dooms her and he is outwardly hostile whenever people mention her beauty - to ned, that beauty brought only horror so he doesn’t dwell on it.

there’s lots of commentary here on what “beautiful” actually means from person to person, so while i would say the first group are more objectively beautiful, it’s also important to think about context - who is thinking they’re beautiful, why they’re thinking this, and what their relationship is.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hey! Did you find the time to read the affc outline yet? I just know people are seething lol. I wanted to ask, what did you think about the Tyrion outline? That he will “witness incest”? Will he see two people and be reminded of Jaime/Cersei because there doesn’t seem to be any other option. Dany is alone and I doubt she will get together with Aegon VI later in the volume.

Moreover, I feel like the pov Prince of Sorrows is Tyrion’s or Tyrion centric nonetheless because I feel “whores go everywhere” is the answer to the constant question Tyrion asks himself in adwd - “where do whores go”. Maybe he finds out about Tysha and it is painful??

I know at this point we can only speculate because we don’t have any evidence to go off on, but what do you think, can we figure out something about the outline?

Hi there! :)

(Reddit post in question)

I've read it but not in-depth. No time, unfortunately. (Employment is a huge impediment to fandom...)

Here are some rambling thoughts, yay!

I'm pretty sure the Prince of Sorrows refers to concept that Tyrion was supposed to have an encounter with the Shrouded Lord (I think?) in a dream of some kind, probably during his near-death at the Bridge of Dream, which was in the Sorrows stretch of the Rhoyne. What snippets of philosophical musings GRRM put under that header certainly fit a transcendent confrontation with Tyrion's conscience. "Let it go or it will become you. Let them go - will not bring you peace." Tyrion's inability to let go of his own trauma and resulting rage (like Dany, like Theon, like Stannis, like LSH, like Bran, like Arya etc etc etc) is utterly the root of his own villainy and future undoing. So that checks out. GRRM cut it, probably because it may have been too heavy-handed at this point in time. He instead opted to show us a Tyrion descending into complete depravity at Selhorys, with any self-reflection deferred to a much later point.

"Witness to incest" is so vague that I don't think we can even extrapolate it refers to any specific action with the plot so much as it's a self-description.

It's important to remember that this informal little note of an outline is from GRRM for GRRM, and these are prompts or reminders that tie into his already existing thoughts. We have no idea what those thoughts are. A phrase like "KILL THE MOUSE" or "witness to incest" can refer to an intended quote, it can refer to a status he wants to emphasize inside the chapter, it can be a personal reminder to achieve a specific moment or plot point, it can be symbolic. Is the Mouse Shadrich, or is it a code for Alayne, who is a mousy-brown creature scurrying about the castle, different but similar to Arya's Harrenhal mouse era? What it does is beautifully showcase how he structures the more pragmatic, detailed bits of his plot around key points he wants to make. Take the Arya notes. "The joy of giving". Obviously, he is working on complex imagery that juxtaposes "taking a life" with "giving the gift", the hypocritisy of murder for hire - and the genuine peace offered to those who come to die of their own volition. Here, too, GRRM chose to hold back on actually going into these issues in the finished product in Feast-Dance, probably saving it for the climactic escape and/or Arya's confrontation with Catelyn's revenant.

Is the incest Jaime and Cersei, which Tyrion has witnessed all his life? Was it meant to tie into Aegon and Dany (who he learns are intended to marry), or to set up something else, or both? GRRM chose to cut it, anyway, so the sentiment may well come back at a later point, much like the insights in the Prince of Sorrows.

Basically, while the emphasis on Sansa's identity is a pleasantly unambiguous support for her (already obvious) trajectory north in GRRM's own mind, I don't think we'll get much else out of this outline that isn't already in the text one way or the other. We shouldn't be too literal with the notes in there because he wasn't writing an explanation of his plot, he was writing an extremely self-referential little to-do list that may be as reliable as the to-do lists I write for myself on a day off: i.e., I end up doing one thing and scrap the rest in favor of lying around on my couch.

[daenerysstormreborn]

The idea that Arya's arc is a reflection of Cat's was born out of old forum arguments that Sansa lacked "Starkness" and was more of a Tully. It was solely created as being gotcha assuming that most of the people making those arguments liked Arya and Ned more than Sansa and Cat, and specifically hated Sansa and Cat because they're not like Arya and Ned. What better way to shame them than by comparing the characters they hate most to the ones they presumably like best?

The problem of course is that it's not really born out of a proper analysis, it's from wanting to prove the person you're arguing with is wrong. Nor does it acknowledge that the actual problem is treating the houses like they're Hogwarts houses and all members of the family need to share the same handful of traits but that both sides see House Tully and Stark as Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. No one wants their fave to be a Tully, they want them to be a Stark. If Sansa fans didn't see being a Tully as shameful they would be celebrating her similarities to Cat, not wanting to run away from them to make her seem more like Lyanna and Ned.

There's a good post I don't think I'll be able to properly paraphrase that points out everyone who loves the Cat/Arya comparisons would never support it meaning Arya following Cat's footsteps as the next Lady of Winterfell. It comes off shallow and lacking because the actual subtext is that Ned/Sansa are "good" while Cat/Arya are "bad", i.e. the former being defined through kindness and leadership while the latter are defined by feralness and the futileness of revenge. It also just shows a complete lack of understanding what GRRM is actually trying to portray with the characters lol. Arya is specifically compared to Lyanna in both personality and appearance, she's heavily motivated by her conversation with Ned in her second AGOT chapter and is constantly remembering leadership lessons she heard him tell Robb and Jon. She loves her mother fiercely yet worries Catelyn will reject her.

I also think it showcases the weaknesses in fandom's ability to analyze the text in only able to see parallels and nothing else. There's very little about mirroring or anti-parallels or contrasts. And some can only see parallels through a shipping lens. Something that stands out to be in AFFC is when Sansa thinks of her father telling her "all men live with fear" but the father she was referring to was Petyr, not Ned. It does indicate to me that Sansa's arc in TWOW could involve her struggling between following Ned's life lessons instead of Petyr's, but Sansa never really remembers things she's learned from Ned the same way Jon and Arya do. In the same vein, Cat being resurrected because of Nymeria and Beric's promise to Arya is meant to be intentional, Cat futile suggestion of naming Arya as Robb's heir instead of Jon is meant to be intentional, Jon thinking Cat would be pleased to see him say he has no sisters is meant to be intentional. It's all set up for a reunion between Arya and Cat that goes well beyond Arya seeing her thirst for revenge reflected at her through Lady Stoneheart.

The way Sansa fans react to any suggestion that she has parallels to Lysa just completes the puzzle. They'll rage and accuse anyone making the comparison as hating Sansa yet will turn around and argue that Arya is the one who has the most similarities to Lysa, of course with no acknowledgement that following their own logic would mean making parallels between Lysa and Arya is motivated by hating Arya lol.

Thanks for all the information!

The idea of Cat being associated with being feral is so funny. What feral thing has Cat ever done? She freed Jaime Lannister which was a very extreme measure to save her daughters but other characters (Cersei) have done way more extreme things for their kids. Arya isn’t “feral” either like anything “feral” she’s done has been for the sake of survival. Or justice, in the case of the tickler, but he was literally torturing people. Is she feral because she had to jump on him and stab him multiple times instead of cleanly beheading him? Because of course she’d have to do something like that to kill him. She’s a scrawny little girl. And okay she killed Daeron in Braavos. He was a deserter. Is Ned feral for killing a deserter? Nobody says that. Or is she just feral because she doesn’t conform to what’s expected of her as a high born girl? 💀 And the idea that Arya isn’t defined by kindness either like. Arya is an extremely kind girl who will befriend anyone. She is sweet and playful with little children, her peers, and adults alike. I’ve talked about it before but when she entered the house of black and white the first thing she thinks to do is get a stranger something to drink, believing she’s just getting him some water.

I don’t think either girl is really defined by leadership either at the point. Sansa is learning a lot about politics from LF, but she hasn’t been put in any sort of actual leadership position. Both girls do admire female leaders. I honestly don’t think Arya is motivated by revenge either. I’ve said it before but I interpret her list as a coping mechanism. She has a strong sense of justice and she takes comfort in imagining justice being enacted upon the people who deserve it. So does Sansa, for the record, although it’s not quite so in-your-face and she copes in other ways.

Treating the houses like hogwarts houses is a good way to put it. To some extent, I get it. Like, the Starks are cool. I’m not sure how “Tully” Sansa is either. Like sure she looks like Cat and she lost Lady but how much does she really have in common with her aside from conforming to femininity? Not to say I think she’s more like Ned than like Cat. I just think it’s kind of a silly debate.

I’ve read plenty of metas about Sansa and Lyanna but I’m definitely not sold. I think a lot of it comes from people conflating all rose imagery with Lyanna (i.e., Sansa and the “roadside rose” thing) but there’s an entire house with a rose emblem and I don’t think George had Lyanna in mind. I don’t strictly mind drawing connections between Lyanna and Sansa as long as it doesn’t also involve dismissing the strong connection between Arya and Lyanna.

Parallels are definitely the easiest to find, so I can’t quite blame people for talking more about them than anti-parallels and contrasts and such. I also think that shipping culture can really hurt people’s interpretation of characters and media. We’re all biased in our interpretations in some way, of course.

To be honest though I’m not sure I see the Sansa/Lysa parallel either. I’ve heard this a lot, but I actually don’t know what people are referring to when they compare them. I haven’t seen an explanation. So I’d definitely be interested in an explanation if anyone has one! I am a Sansa fan btw like Daenerys, Jon, and Arya are my favorites but I am a Sansa fan. But I also don’t think drawing parallels to Lysa is hate lol. I know very well that this fandom in general has a very low threshold for what constitutes hate.

Thank you for the ask!

[nossbean]

endless wips wherein i will restrain myself but a little: god please tell me about 2. LION HUSBAND and 4. TNAU no one asked for hello i'm asking for it 😘

💕💕💕 ! I talked about my dear Lion Husband here so let’s get into TNAU sequel no one asked for <3

TNAU is the acronym for Twelfth Night AU which is Alas, the frailty is to blame wherein Jaime and Cersei swap identities so Cersei can attend Jaime’s mens-only university to study politics and Jaime undertakes finishing Cersei’s degree at a women’s-only college in an otherwise men’s-only uni: this is all set in some quasi 1930/1940 Britain-ish version of Westeros. Ofc while there, it turns out “Cersei’s” roommate is Brienne and initial animosity turns to “oh fuck I think I fancy you but you think I'm my sister” in the vein of Twelfth Night, sorta. There’s a helping hand of the Amanda Bynes classic, She’s The Man, let’s be honest here!

This sequel takes place Later, as in, post the events of Alas, after they’ve sorted everything out. I can’t remember exactly what precipitated this fic — something Wasn't Great, and I wanted to write something unrelentingly kind, and I kept thinking about this bit from Alas:

In any case, the makeup [he’s put on Brienne] doesn’t work. He begrudges that it’s probably his fault, but it somehow looks like a lie on her face, a face made only for honesty. Jaime washes it off for her, he’s careful and gentle about it, and something about this makes Brienne tearful, and it breaks his heart

I’ve known why Brienne gets tearful here since writing it; even if Alas had become much more expansive, I’m not sure Brienne would have revealed what was going on there in any case. But while I was searching for something kind, I kept returning to that bit, to what was happening for Brienne, and what it meant in the context of Brienne-with-Jaime-who-was-then-“Cersei” and what it might mean later. So anyway, here’s the rough incomplete start of a fic that looks at that, set months, maybe as much as a year or more later (cw for recollection of child abuse):

'tis wonder that enwraps me thus

“Have you fallen asleep?”

With her eyes closed, Brienne only guesses where Jaime is by the dance of gentle light pressing on her lids and the mindful shifting of his weight across her hips, but Jaime’s face is near enough hers that his breath dissipates across her upper cheeks when he speaks. Demands, really.

Speaking is always the most awkward part. It oughtn’t be. Even when Jaime had been being Cersei, that first time they did this when Brienne didn’t know anything but that her deeply aggravating, incredibly unpredictable, inexplicably kind (in a sideways sort of a fashion) roommate was perhaps becoming her friend, when Jaime had done this — making himself comfortable, straddling her hips, curling over her with makeup and tools — his weight had been inexplicably soothing, just as it is now, and the various textures of makeup and application so gentle they mesmerised and mesmerise to the point of relaxation. Brienne had settled into it then, and she had been in a comfortable state now before Jaime’s question.

Pursing her lips in case the lippie isn’t set, Brienne murmurs, “No.”

Even to her own ears it lacks a convincing tenor for all that it’s true, and because regardless of how else he is metamorphosed, Jaime remains a pest, he singsongs, “Don’t believe you,” and twirls a makeup brush right under her nostrils.

Brienne doesn’t sneeze — congratulates herself — but she does wriggle and scrunch up her face, pressing back into Jaime’s pillow, and Jaime laughs as is his wont and Brienne fights a smile as is hers.

“I wasn’t sleeping,” she says, more earnest and less annoyed than she means. “You’re always so—”

“Charming, clever and rogue-ish?” Jaime intones, and Brienne finally opens her eyes.

Quick to assume, is what she’d intended to say, but Jaime’s diverted her, changed her sentence, and it’s instead become, Stunning, which she manages not to say. By the pleased smirk that spreads his lips, he reads it on her anyway. His hair is shorter now, though curls catch gold from the lamp and tickle along his shoulders. His eyes are thick-lined and mascaraed, and she thinks it’s blusher heightening the colour in his cheeks, making his eyes deeper, highlighting sharp cheekbones, but she’s only still learning all this and it doesn’t readily stick in her head. Mostly though he looks unburdened most days and wears it well. Lively and bright, just as puckish as ever, but free. Despite herself she sighs to look at him and her hand drifts up his thigh. Jaime’s grin turns soft in that way that still makes her stomach flip.

“I wasn’t sleeping,” she insists because, though he says it constantly, he’s right: she’s stubborn.

Jaime looks ceiling-ward in a well worn bid for patience she recognizes now as affection before dropping his face and giving a grandiose shrug to this. “If you insist.”

She scowls, he laughs, then ducks down to greet her up-tipped chin with a kiss.

“Hold on,” his fingers are light and careful then on her chin, gently keeping her in place. “Do this,” he says and opens his mouth a little, flattening his lips.

Brienne does as she’s told. Jaime draws his thumb across the skin under her lower lip and Brienne knows this action now: a little lipstick escaped outside bounds. Jaime’s face is so serious as he neatens his work but this, at least, is never as serious as all that. Brienne pokes her tongue out, catches the pad of his thumb just before it slides away. The taste is — mixed. The waxy stick of lippie dominates but she catches some of the tangy sweet of the orange she’d shared with him earlier, lingering or perhaps imagined. Her main prize is on his face anyway: a pleased uptick on the corner of his mouth, his eyes sparkling.

“I’m done anyway, take a look?”

This part mostly passes in a blur. Brienne asks questions, and she listens closely, but she can never quite wrap her mind around everything Jaime explains and describes. Mostly, for her, these moments are for her to watch as Jaime animates. He nearly always wears a smile but now the expression softens: less sharp, more at ease. The muscles around his lips loosen and that relaxation extends up to the corners of his eyes. Their green deepens. His voice goes quieter, a surprise to her, to discover this emotion in him lives close to his emotions around her, revealed in the slight rasp he takes on as he speaks ever more quickly, warming to his topic. It’s a different rasp, but near enough to what she hears in bed, or sotto voce in her ear when they’re in public and Jaime strives to create a beat where they two are alone, or when he greets her upon return to their room, Hello, chit. Jaime is beautiful always, but he opens as a butterfly from a moment of perfect stillness, like shaking off some sort of cold or rust or armour, and she knows it only happens with her, this spread of wings, luxuriant and warm and so vibrant she feels painted by some of his colour.

She feels badly that the details don’t make sense to her, and also sometimes gets the sense that he knows. That mostly he basks in her attention as though she is sunshine bright upon him on some leaf, keeping him warm in the knowledge that someone cares enough to listen and to take an interest.

And if she thinks on that for too long, her eyes will prickle and her throat will form a lump, and now is not the time.

He grins now at her, shining pride with no teeth, and she twists without thinking to tug him down into a kiss. He laughs against her mouth and she cherishes it and him and the way his hand comes under her jaw. It’s still strange kissing with lipstick — she knows and likes kissing him as he wears it but when she is the one who wears it…

A relief, when he murmurs, “Let’s get this off you,” and perhaps the primary reason she agrees in the first place.

She sets out the bits as Jaime fetches warm water. A ritual she yearns for, tries to learn from. She hasn’t told Jaime why, worries it will change his reasons or alter how he does it. And equally she knows that’s silly. If there’s one single thing she knows of Jaime, it’s that he takes things in stride, one more revelation won’t change that.

Brienne isn’t sure she has the words for it.

It had been so unexpected, that first time. He’d put the make up on her, and it had been a disappointment to see: she had thought perhaps it would make her appear more herself. Her face could be so harsh and Brienne never felt harsh. She’d imagined a softening, lushening, of her features. Jaime hadn’t managed that then, far from, and though he had recently, she found she didn’t mind overmuch any longer.

The shock had come when he washed her face.

She hadn’t in her life ever been handled so gently. Perhaps that isn’t fair: she can’t remember her mother but it is possible she had been kind. Her father hadn’t given her more than a supportive hand to her shoulder since she was seven years old, and her nanny… Roelle had not been kind. Roelle had not been gentle. Roelle had seemed only to have rough towels and rough cloths and a mean hold on Brienne’s chin as she scrubbed at her face: tears, snot, sweat. And Brienne, without realising, had learned that, too.

Roelle had not washed Brienne’s face in over a decade — Brienne had made sure of that. And yet until Jaime had held her chin in a light touch, wiped her cheeks slowly with care, Brienne hadn’t recognized that she was as harsh with herself as Roelle had been.

Jaime touches the tips of his fingers to her chin, exerts the barest amount of pressure to tip her chin up and then he smiles down at her. He hums, sometimes, as he does this. Sometimes he chats. Mostly though, he is quiet. He murmurs, “This is all right?” as he passes a soft cloth over her skin with gentle pressure. Tuts when she nods. She might try to answer but her voice deserts her, her heart takes up residence in her throat, and all she can do is sit and be cared for.

Endless WIPs meme

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Me seeing the ask game: *cracks knuckles* Let's go.

I hope you don't mind answering all of these 😅.

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16.

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Have a nice day!

I won’t answer all of them haha. I had no time to write that much plus I wanted to actually give hOt TaKeS.

8 common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

I’ll start of by saying that I’m not one who wants to police other people’s interpretations of the text. BUT I will say this: Jon is not a below average swordsman! He’s not even average. He may not have many on page feats, but he’s only been in less than a handful of serious fights and they were against middle aged men with decades of experience over him. People like to bring up his loss to Mance, but this fight was against a man who managed to unite the wildling tribes under his rule; Mance is a highly skilled warrior.

Remember, Jon is 15-16 years old when most of these fights are happening. So he’s still young and growing. People will also say “oh, but Jaime Lannister was a god at that age”. Honestly, who cares? How many characters are comparable to Jaime at any age? It’s such a dumb comparison. I’ve even seen people argue that a 13 year old Peck is better than Jon and huh? Jon hasn’t won over any knights….because he’s not encountering them in the first place.

It’s clear that GRRM holds Jon’s skill in high regard. I mean the first Jon POV chapter established him as a noted swordsman. It also clear that Jon isn’t meant to be the warrior type. He’s a deconstruction of the archetypal fantasy protagonist. GRRM has chosen to build his political skills, so he’s not putting much of a focus on how well he swings his sword. That doesn’t mean though that he doesn’t have any skill at all. Just that it’s not the main focus of his character. But I think this fandom generally has the most wretched discourse when it comes to this stuff. Like people on Reddit this past week tried to argue that Brienne is overrated…Brienne, of all people. It’s just insane to me that people think they know more than the guy who wrote the damn books.

13 worst blorboficiation

Has got to be Kevan Lannister. Not so much on tumblr, but it’s a disease in some of the other communities. For whatever reason, he’s quite beloved. And this is rather strange because he is very much complicit in the corrupt Lannister regime. And as far as we know, he’s also fully supported Tywin in everything (which includes legitimate war crimes). He has his moments where he is shown to actually care for family members (e.g., Lancel, Tyrion), and that makes him a delightfully complex character. He’s also really funny. But we shouldn’t ignore his really bad traits. I’ve had to suffer a bunch of “Kevan Lannister is the best guy ever” posts on Reddit, and it’s absolutely maddening. That’s not to say that we can’t like “bad” people! Heck, Cersei is one of my faves. But it’s weird how certain characters get a pass for doing problematic things (e.g., Kevan or even Bobby B), and other characters get lambasted for the most tame things imaginable. It’s just the hypocrisy that’s annoying.

16 you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc)

Powerscaling lol. It can be fun, but the people who engage in these discussions can be so tedious and boring. Tiktok and Reddit are full of this. “Who is the greatest fighter”, “who is the best warrior”, “this is why prime Robert low diffs Barristan Selmy”, and it’s the same old arguments every time. I think we should get more creative with powerscaling if we have to do it. Like “who has the best 🛌 skills”. Let’s at least argue over something fun, damn.

22 your favorite part of canon that everyone else ignores

This is going to be twofold:

- On tumblr? Easily Jon’s relationship with magic. In fact, people on here will go out of their way to argue that it’s actually not important to the plot, which is absolutely bonkers. Beyond warging, there’s a lot of weird magical stuff going on with Jon that should be put under the microscope. And I’d even argue that Jon’s a pretty special warg and cannot be compared to the other Stark kids (even Bran) because of how his powers manifest. Ghost is also obviously one of the most special animal familiars in the series (maybe even THE most special one), but no one ever talks about how special he is. A lot of people seem to believe that Jon will be KiTN, but it’s insane how we don’t talk about why it’s magically important for him to rule the North, considering his deep connections to Northern mysticism, religion, and lore.

- Elsewhere: the parallels between Jon and Bran. They’re essentially the same character base split into two (Seoman Snowlack, Frodo, King Arthur, Paul and Leto Atreides, Odin, etc). Both arcs parallel each other and are heading to the same destination, but the details will be different. This is getting to my last point, but I firmly believe we’re getting an ending with both King Jon and King Bran. I like to think of them as two competing but complementary sides of King Arthur’s tale. Jon is the one that is true to legend, as he follows the archetypal hidden prince-to-king trope. Jon is essentially “what if Arthur actually went on his hero’s/knightly quest?”Bran is the subverted one, where young Arthur gets a little detour; so “what if Arthur didn’t go on the hero’s/knightly quest but instead had to take up a job as a part time wizard?” Both will end up kings, just as Arthur did, but it will be different versions of the legend.

- Also: WTF is up with the Watch/Wall? What magic was used to build the Wall and who built it? Why can’t dragons cross? And why can’t wights cross either? What magic dictates that? What’s up with the Nightfort? Why does one only need to say part of the vows to open the gate? And what’s up with the NW vows? Why do they give Lightbringer vibes?! Is the NW Lightbringer? The NW is directly credited with the ending of the Long Night so was the last hero a member of the original group? Who was he? What happened to him after? If the last hero inspired AA then did the NW (and their vows) inspire tales of his flaming sword? And why did the relationship between the Watch and the CoF fizzle out? When did it fizzle out? And who are the LCs whose tenures have not been recorded? Why did they only start recording in the 600s (iirc)? What other history has been lost over time? Who was the Night King? Where did his half-human children go? Need that old man to answer these stat

25 common fandom complaint that you're sick of hearing

Several people will block me for this…but King Bran. Look, I get that Bran isn’t the most popular character out there. But so many people convinced themselves that he would die in that cave or he would amount to nothing which is very, very strange. And it also doesn’t help that a lot of the complaints reek of ableism.

GRRM obviously considers Bran to be central to this series. He is the first viewpoint character (and potentially the last one). He is the most magical character in the story. The scene that birthed ASOIAF came about because of Bran. It’s also said that GRRM considered writing the books through Bran’s POV but decided against it pretty quickly.

Anyone who paid attention to Bran’s story would know that we’re going to get some huge payoff to his story. In fact, I think it’s safer to assume that kingship has always been in the cards for him. I think most of us Bran stans thought he’d be KiTN (actually some of us over at Westeros.org thought he’d end up as the final Lord of Harrenhal). I never once considered King of all Westeros but I’ve had time to think about it ever since the show ended and I’m like, “duh!”. It’s thematically relevant and sound for Bran to end up king. We’re about to enter into a winter apocalypse but Bran’s direwolf is called Summer. Not only is he the representation of summer (which means renewal, rejuvenation, etc.), but he’s also fashioned after the Fisher King. He is also the second coming of Brandon the Builder - who constructed castles all over Westeros, not just the North; and if legends are true, this happened after the Long Night. He’s following after the footsteps of the Last Hero, and is the only other character apart from Jon who is actually fighting in the front lines against the Others. He’s going to be super important!

I can understand some of the questions people having regarding King Bran, mainly those of a political nature. But we’re left with two books. And two books is plenty to move the necessary pieces for Bran’s crowning. Hell, did people expect that Dany would be Queen of Meereen as they started reading ASOS? Most didn’t. A lot can happen in two books. A lot can happen in a singular book. GRRM has enough time to set up a scenario on which Bran is the only one left to rule.

I personally think that the apocalypse will essentially destroy Westeros as we know it, leading to the creation of a new kingdom(s). D&D botched the GoT ending so people have a hard time seeing the thematic weight of a boy who represents summer rising to kingship, but the books lay enough groundwork imo. And I think ACOK shows us that Bran, despite his age, would make a wise ruler. So I’m all for King Bran. Not only is it thematically sound, but I love the idea of a disabled kid rising to power at the end since we don’t see that in a lot of fantasy.

[leesielex]

So, I reblogged at Cat/Arya post. And I heard a tik toker say Sansa is most like Ned and Cat like Arya and now I have been looking at things with new eyes. This is part 2, the 1st focused on Cat/Arya and this will focus on Ned/Sansa.

Usually most of us think about Arya and Jon being most like Ned, and they look most like him, and they are loyal and try to abide by his teachings. They are also the Starkiest Starks of them all. But NED is not very Stark like other than looks! Think about it! Think about what we think of when we think of the Starks of old, the true first men. We hear that Lyanna was wild and willful, a she-wolf. We hear Brandon was the same, that he was a wolf, but we never hear that people think or say this of Ned.

Ned was fostered in the Vale, a southern kingdom, from a very young age, his loyalty and sense of idealistic honor and duty didn't come so much from the North but from being raised by Jon Arryn. And who is currently in the Vale? Sansa!

Sansa and Ned both trust the wrong people and it leads to their family's demise and their own personal hardships/fall. Ned trusts Littlefinger who by all accounts he shouldn't: who trusts a man who dueled their brother for their wife's hand because he wanted her for himself? A man he knows nothing about except he owns brothels and is Master of Coin where he helps the king to bankrupt the coffers?

He also trusts Cersei in telling her he knew of her children's true parentage and giving her the opportunity to flee to Essos. Despite many examples in his time w/the Royal fam showing exactly the type of person Cersei is. Despite believing the Lannister's are behind Jon Arryn's death, he still goes to her and does what he believes is honorable because he is idealistic and views women as ladies, very much how Sansa sees people through rose-colored glasses, so does Ned.

It's very similar to how Sansa goes to Cersei to tell her Ned is taking her away, expecting Cersei to be honorable and simply speak to Ned? Despite both of them witnessing what Joffrey and Cersei did when Joff attacked Arya and Mycah, they still expect honor from those who have none.

They both don courtesies as their armor. Ned becoming 'Lord of Winterfell' when he needed it and the way GRRM describes this is similar to Sansa. There is an example of Ned doing this in the scene where Ned executes Garred for abandoning the Wall. Bran is the one who thinks Ned took his face off and donned Lord Stark of Winterfell's. They are both described as icy when donning their Lord and Lady masks. This is their coping mechanism vs Cat/Arya's impulsiveness/rashness. Another parallel/similarity; Ned and Sansa both experience the Lannister's cruelty firsthand, and both beg mercy for the other.

They are also paralleled in how they view Robert and Joffrey. Their respective Baratheons, tho we know Joff is not truly one. At first they see who they want to see in each of them. Ned sees his childhood friend, foster brother, and nostalgia makes him see him in a positive light, but slowly his view of his old friend starts to unravel. Robert is not the strong warrior Ned's mind still thinks of him as, and as Ned sees him truly, sees how poor of a ruler he is, sees how he is a drunk and cruel, his thoughts on his physical appearance change, he becomes physically "uglier" in Ned's mind as he notices his inner "ugliness". Then Ned disregards this reality and pushes it back down; to keep the peace? A little, but mostly because he talks to Robert and he pulls on his heart strings and he remembers the boy he used to be that he loved as a brother, and he still is just idealistic in his honor.

Sansa does the same with Joffrey, and Cersei. Despite them showing her who they are, she ignores it and puts on her rose colored glasses because princes and queens are supposed to be good and beautiful like the songs, because she is meant to marry Joff, become queen, and get everything she wanted. Because they tell her what she wants to hear to placate her and it's easier to believe the lies than face the truth. And as reality slowly starts to chip away at her idealistic worldview she starts to see Joff's physical beauty melt away, reflecting the inner ugliness he has shown.

It is no coincidence that Sansa escapes the Red Keep to a similar fashion to Ned when LF takes him to Cat. And it is no coincidence she is now in the Vale w/LF, the place her father was raised. Lysa and Littlefinger were the cause of her family's demise in truth. LF is using her to climb the ladder of chaos further. He killed Ned and Ned's foster father. And just like Arya is taking Cat's Riverland storyline and will set the Tully land's right, Sansa will do the same for the Vale, I believe.

Sansa's arc is not to become Queen in the North, the North's plot line is for Jon and Bran. Sansa's arc is to bring justice to LF and to become Lady of the Vale, to take down the one who killed her father and his foster father, to save her cousin, and to free those raised amongst her father, her cousin, to succeed where her father had failed by overcoming their defects. And it's foreshadowed, makes perfect sense, and is poetic. Each of the Starks have their roles to play in the final books, and they have been foreshadowed from the beginning, each story culminating on ending the trauma and betrayals they experienced and witnessed earlier on.

*im not the most eloquent or the best at this type of analysis and I'm sorry for that but my points remain.

[asoiafdrabbles]

III.50

Jon has forgotten just enough to wish he wasn't haunted by his memories.

Cersei/Jaime/Jon. Dark, post resurrection.

XxXxX

The resentment came in waves.

It was harder, since his death, to feel enough of the kinder emotions to counteract that.

At some point, Jon thought he'd loved his uncle enough that he would have forgiven him, but not now when he could only remember bits and pieces of the man, of his childhood.

In some ways, it was convenient that seemingly the entire realm had been informed of his true parentage. While it destabilized the power he held over the North, and he assumed it had been done to weaken the claim Daenerys Targaryen pushed, it also meant that others came to him instead of making him seek them out himself.

The summons from Cersei Lannister was almost a relief, getting him away from the land that constantly reminded him of what he was missing.

On the back of a dragon, getting from Winterfell to King's Landing didn't take too terribly long, despite the increase in storms across the North. He left before anyone could talk him out of it, packing what few pieces of clothing he had that might be suitable enough for appearing before a Lannister queen (all of it was in his preferred black and the irony of it now being a color of his house was not lost on him).

Those who met him when he landed seemed as unsure of his role as he was: a prisoner, a hostage, a guest?

When he reached Cersei, saw the glint in her eyes as she examined him, he realized it was something more than that.

The possessiveness he expected Ser Jaime to hold for his sister-lover oddly seemed to extend to Jon, instead of working against him. A few half-finished conversations showed his loyalty to Rhaegar, his regret over Jon's siblings, his heartbreak over Rhaella, and he imagined that was the why of it: Jaime Lannister didn't see Jon as some sort of threat or challenge because he looked at Jon and saw the dead he still mourned.

Cersei was much the same, calling him Rhaegar at times when she was deep into her cups. He didn't care, he did not come to her for love, a concept which felt more foreign to him with every day he lived his second life.

The simplicity of her selfishness and arrogance kept him by her side. And the knowledge he was surely working against what both of the fathers he'd had would have wanted.

XxXxX

There's a popular theory that Jon will loss some of his memories when he comes back to life (as we know fire wights do) and also one where he'll be in Ghost and be like more feral stuff when he gets back because he'll spend too much time in that skin. I don't really hold to either of them, but I think darker Jon without memories (and wishing they were all gone instead of wishing for them back) is a fun concept to play with.

[ackermental]

We all know the real reason Laena had to die and leave Daemon and Rhaenyra too early.

The Oldtown triad took one look at this poly triad of awesomeness and got flashbacks to Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys and decided it had to be stopped then and there.

P.S, I saw your post mentioning how the Blacks need a separate communication system. It’s very telling that Doran Martell has his own raventenders who answer directly to him and not Oldtown.

If only it was just that, nonny.

If Oldtown looked at them the same way they’ve seen Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya, it would’ve been bad enough. But those three bitches were much worse, especially Rhaenyra. After all, the conquerors had a problem with hatching dragons from the beginning. Daemon banging Rhaenyra meant the future filled with new dragons. Daemon banging Laena would probably give us another Rhaenyra as well. And sure enough it did, with Baela. I’m not counting Rhaena, because we learn she can’t hatch dragons later on.

 The last time Oldtown went ballistic about a possible union like this, was the one between another uncle and niece: Maegor and Rhaena, a woman who hatched Dreamfyre and who lost Irone Throne to Jaehaerys. They’ve claimed it was because of incest, yet nobody had anything to say about this issue before with Aegon. And let’s remember, that they forced Maegor to marry a Hightower instead.

 That’s why I’m laughing my ass off any time someone tries to defend Jaehaerys, because he at least disbanded faith militants (yeah, he did, after Maegor kicked their asses and put the fear of real gods in them) and managed to negotiate the compromise for Targaryens to be allowed to marry each other (yeah, he did, long after the threat of Rhaena and Aerea diapered across the Narrow Sea). And then he made septon his Hand.

 Please.

Oldtown rats have no trouble letting some Targaryens marry each other, and then they absolutely lose their shit about how incest is a crime against gods and humanity, when others try to do the same. And notice how most of those are remembered as murderers of little puppies and later have problems with producing heirs.

 And absolutely, Martells know what’s up, and what’s more, they seem to be using Oldtown for their own gain. Now, I won't go into detail about Martells Conspiracy, but no, it was never about marrying Quentyn to Dany and Arianne to Viserys.

 I love how Dorne and Oldtown get more and more tangled as this story goes on.

 We have Oberyn with his six links of maester's chain, him hanging around brothels in Oldtown and having a daughter from there: Obara, who blames Oldtown for her father’s death and wishes to sack it.

 Oberyn straight out sabotages his sister’s marriage to a Hightower, absolutely annihilating maesters' plan to bring all Seven Kingdoms against Targaryens together. And Oberyn’s own marriage to Cersei gets destroyed by Aerys tempting Tywin into saving her for Rhaegar.

 Then come forward the Brave Companions, most probably a company Oberyn created, filled with people related to the Faith, who chopped off Jaime's hand, killed Amory Lorch (a man who murdered Elia’s daughter) and had Qyburn with them. Qyburn who later works for Cersei and takes care of Tywin’s body (the same body that was poisoned) and Gregor Clagane, who's been renamed to Robert Strong. And yes, you’re supposed to make this connection with Harwin. Not to mention, the Brave Companions and their sacking of septs, kicks off the sparrow movement and brings back the faith militant force and their courts. Same courts that poor Cersei has to go against.

And the Sandsnakes?

  Not only Nymeria is now on the Small Council, we also have Tyene being dispatched to spy on the High Sparrow, and we have Sarella in the Citadel.

 Don’t even let me get started about Martells' race against Blackfyres for who will be the first to get to Dany and her dragons, as well as get Stepstones under their control to transfer an army. By the way, one of the largest city that would give you control over Stepstones, and yes, those are the same Stepstones we are about to see in the show, is Lys. The same Lys where Lynesse Hightower is.

 And the whole thing with Quentyn! Because you see, Quentyn was the lost cause from the very beginning. He was fostered by Yronwoods, a House that hates Martells (they are what Boltons are to Starks, or Florents to Tyrells) and people who are well-known Blackfyres supporters. I find it hilarious how Doran clearly knows that Quentyn's become a puppet and tells him to follow his maesters teaching, in order for him to become his heir one day... And then gives him no support on his quest to Essos. 

 And Arianne is clearly being groomed into ruling. Speaking of Arianne, she gets locked up with some books to read, and those are about: dornish law, dragons, history and septons.

 So yeah, Martells know and, as almost everyone in this story, they are playing only for themselves.

[esther-dot]

Good morning. I wanted to ask about your statements that Cersei isn't a direct threat to Sansa as much as Sansa's other abusers, which startled me, to be honest.

I agree she's not a direct sexual threat, but she manipulated and emotionally abused Sansa. She was more than happy to let Sansa be beaten and raped by her son, and probably would have even protected and made excuses for Joffrey. She later played a key role in setting Sansa up to be raped by Tyrion. This wasn't a case of her merely standing by and passively letting it happen; she actively worked to entrap Sansa into being sexually abused.

And she doesn't stop there. At present, in the books, she is quite literally trying to kill Sansa. She may not be the one physically holding the weapon, but she's the one behind all the evil men who are out there searching for Sansa now to bring her back and kill her. Cersei is the direct, driving force behind that. I just find it very strange to think that Cersei is less a threat to Sansa because her abuse of Sansa hasn't been physical, or more accurately, because she's used others to perpetrate her physical abuse on Sansa instead of doing it herself.

I realize I may sound argumentative, but I'd truly like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

I’m not sure which of my posts you’re responding to, but I never meant to imply that Cersei isn’t evil. Sansa hates her and is afraid of her for a reason. I did recently try to explain that her not being a sexual predator of Sansa’s means that I can “enjoy” her as a villain and her scenes with Sansa even when I don’t enjoy other villains. (link) The Hound, Tyrion, Joffrey, LF, Marillion…if the threat isn’t explicit rape in the moment, they are sexually interested in Sansa and that makes my skin crawl because we know where it’s going. I’m not denying that Cersei abused the trust Sansa placed in her, or that she ignored the threat Joffrey was, or that she doesn’t want her dead after Joffrey’s death, I simply find her a more interesting villain than some of the others because of how she and Sansa share certain parallels/experiences, because of that mentor/mentee role she has with Sansa, because of how she is a foil to Sansa, not merely another predator. I’d rather read that than yet another man lust after/assault Sansa.

I never thought Cersei would kill Sansa because I never thought Sansa would die, so emotionally, I didn’t have barriers to engaging with their scenes. I simply wasn’t afraid of what I would read next. That isn’t the case for Sansa with any other villain. I suppose I just find the threat of sexual violence so overwhelming in her scenes with other villains I don’t appreciate the dynamics the way Martin intended. As in, LF and Sansa is mentor/mentee, but all I can think is “groomer” and dread what is coming. Intellectually I understand what else is there, but all I want is for Sansa to be far away from them. I might have “enjoyed” LF the same way I enjoy Cersei if he wasn’t molesting Sansa. If he was simply a cold, calculating man who wanted power and was willing to murder and cause wars to get it, to use Sansa to get the North, I might have thought, “oh, what a fun, conniving villain!” But he’s sexually assaulting a little girl, so all I want is for him to die. I just don’t have that same visceral reaction to Cersei in her scenes with Sansa as I do to other villains.

I do find this part of your ask confusing:

She later played a key role in setting Sansa up to be raped by Tyrion. This wasn't a case of her merely standing by and passively letting it happen; she actively worked to entrap Sansa into being sexually abused.

I feel dumb but I actually don’t remember this? 😬 Tywin is the one who decided that Tyrion would marry Sansa, Tyrion is the one who decided actually, he did want to marry her and sleep with her, so I’m not sure why Cersei is to blame? I feel like I must have forgotten something very pivotal here, but in the same scene that Twyin announces Sansa’s fate, he’s just ordered that Cersei will likewise marry and have children against her wishes ie he is doing the same thing to both these characters because he is a pos, and I find it strange to act like Cersei, who couldn’t save herself, could have saved Sansa?

I’m really not sure what else to say that I didn’t when I responded to my last batch of anti Cersei asks, but I suppose where we aren’t seeing eye to eye is that I don’t think it’s weird people enjoy the villain in a Disney movie or fairytale. Cersei at times is so cartoonishly evil, it reminds me of that. Does the evil queen want her huntsman to cut out Snow White’s heart? Sure! Is she still a fun villain? Yup! To me, Cersei registers like that. She fits in with the fairytale side of Sansa’s story whereas sexual assault is just too common in our world for it to entertaining. So, I feel like you and I don’t truly have an argument. I agree that Cersei is a villain in Sansa’s story, she just happens to be my preferred villain, and I would have loved for the two to be reunited to bring things full circle, but I’m not under any delusions about her.

[aboveallarescuer]

#that happens even when the person isnt trying to argue that shes a mad queen/villain but that she has both 'good' and 'evil' in her#and is meant to fail#(e.g. that meta about how dany is a tragic shakespearean hero; which annoys me more bc it sounds convincing when you don't remember what#happened in the books very well...

Can you talk more about your problems with that essay? I thought that it sounded plausible... I don't want those things to happen to Daenerys, but I don't trust GRRM either.

Anon, thank you for this ask and sorry for the delayed answer. I was already planning to write several posts as a response to the arguments of “Daughter of Death: A Song of Ice and Fire’s Shakespearean Tragic Hero” (which you can read here), but I couldn't find the time or motivation for that lately, so thanks for giving me the opportunity to counter-argue it in a single answer. I tried to be brief by summarizing some of my notes and by linking to a lot of metas instead of repeating all of their points, but the response unfortunately ended up becoming long anyway.

In the context of that essay, Dany is considered a Shakespearean tragic hero because the writer thinks she fits five requirements: 1) Dany’s chapters contain supposedly deliberate references to Shakespearean plays; 2) Dany is “torn by an internal struggle”, namely peace versus violence or companionship versus rulership or home versus the Iron Throne, all of which also drive the external conflicts. Choosing the second options will lead to her demise; 3) prophecies and “influential accidents” - that is, events that “have roots in a character’s motivation”, as well as “the sense of ‘if only this had not happened’” - will “heighten and exaggerate [tragic flaws that] already [exist]” in Dany; 4) Dany will (according to the essayist’s speculations) take actions that produce “exceptional calamity” and her demise will be “her own choice and doing”; 5) Dany “[rose] high in position” and is “an exceptional being”, which sets her apart as a character that fits the mold of the Shakespearean tragedy because her reversal of fortune will highlight “the greatness and piteousness of humanity”.

I would argue that the points that the essayist made to justify how Dany supposedly fits these five requirements are all very skewed.

1) When it comes to requirement 1 (Dany’s chapters contain supposedly deliberate references to Shakespearean plays), the essayist is conveniently cherry-picking (as they often do throughout the meta). Bran Stark wants a dreamless sleep just like Dany: “Sweet, dreamless sleep, Bran thought.” (ACOK Bran I); “That night Bran prayed to his father’s gods for dreamless sleep.” (ACOK Bran II). Indeed, @marinabridgerton argues that that’s most likely tied to the fact that they’re the two characters most heavily associated with prophecies. Even Sansa is said to have a dreamless sleep: “Sometimes her sleep was leaden and dreamless, and she woke from it more tired than when she had closed her eyes” (AGOT Sansa VI). And yet, where are the essays about how these quotes are teaching the readership to interpret Bran’s and Sansa’s characters, storylines and trajectories based on Shakespearean tragedies?

2) When it comes to requirement 2 (Dany is “torn by an internal struggle”, namely peace versus violence or companionship versus rulership or home versus the Iron Throne, all of which also drive the external conflicts. Choosing the second options will lead to her demise), the essayist is right to point out that those dilemmas exist. However, they portray Dany’s struggles in a way that makes it seem that 1) there are “good” options (peace/companionship/home) and “bad” options (violence/rulership/Iron Throne) for Dany to take and that 2) choosing the latter ones will lead to Dany’s downfall. There is a lot to question about these assumptions.

2.1) When it comes to Dany’s conflict between peace versus violence, the essayist takes everything that Adam Feldman’s series of essays “Untangling the Meereenese Knot” says for granted when it shouldn’t be. I’m not going to delve into all the problems/inaccuracies/double standards with those essays. For our purposes here, it’s enough to say that they: 1) dichotomize Dany’s identity into mhysa and mother of dragons to argue that the former represents her desire for peace and the latter her violent impulses; 2) assert that the peace was real; 3) conclude that, by rejecting the peace, the Dany of ASOS is gone and from now on she’s going to be a very different person because she will have chosen to follow her violent impulses.

As already argued before, though, 1) Dany’s character can’t be dichotomized in that way because these facets - mhysa and mother of dragons - actually complement each other (as @yendany made clear in her most recent meta). Because Dany was the mother of dragons, she was able to act as mhysa way before she was hailed as such, which we see, for instance, when she kills the Astapori slave masters to free the Unsullied. Both of these identities manifest Dany’s fierceness when faced with great injustices. This is why, in ADWD, locking her dragon children prevented Dany from properly defending her human children… She needs to integrate both parts of her identity to be able to protect them. But Feldman couldn’t recognize that because 2) he accepts the peace deal that Dany made with the slavers as valid. Doing so would mean, however, ignoring the re-enslavement and suffering of thousands of marginalized people, which GRRM continually emphasizes in Dany's and Tyrion’s final ADWD chapters (read more about this here and here) to hammer home that the peace is false for prioritizing the slavers over them. Finally, 3) Dany is not a violent person nor does she have violent impulses. Feldman decontextualized the moments in which Dany uses violence from the standards of her time and place (read more about this here and here and here and here) to portray them in a more negative light than how they are actually meant to be viewed. Additionally, he conveniently left out all the moments in which Dany chooses to be merciful, from when she spares Yunkai and most of the Meereenese slavers (she didn’t do the same in Astapor because she was outnumbered and needed to protect her retinue) to when she doesn’t punish people who threaten or disrespect her to her face (such an envoy who spits at her face, a boy who tries to attack her, Xaro after he says he wishes he’d killed her), to give a few examples (read more about this in @rainhadaenerys's comprehensive meta). I would argue that Dany’s conflict is less about peace versus violence and more accurately about her tendency to be merciful versus her desire for justice (which, especially in the particular context she finds herself in, is unattainable without violence). In fact, I would go further and say that it’s distasteful to characterize Dany as someone “violent” or with “violent impulses” when, so far, she’s only used violence to a) defend and protect victims of (physical and systemic) violence and/or b) in circumstances in which her actions are no more problematic than those of any other leader of her world. And yet, the essayist portrays them as if they were (“To choose indiscriminate destruction over peace tends toward the evil”).

It’s also convenient that the essayist only talks about fire negatively (“Dany wields unmatched power that can “make or unmake at a word”—Dracarys—villages, armies and kingdoms”, “in the words of Maester Aemon, “Fire consumes.””) when it's also connected to life, rebirth, healing and enlightenment. And dracarys in particular is explicitly associated with freedom by the narrative while Dany frees the Unsullied (her decision, in turn, is associated with her future actions in the War for the Dawn). But acknowledging these things would make it harder to portray Dany as a Shakespearean tragic hero.

2.2) When it comes to Dany’s conflict between companionship and rulership … Again, the dilemma exists, but not in the way that the essayist presents it. What I mean is that they go out of their way to make it seem that Dany’s loneliness was the main factor driving her decisions, such as the liberation of the Unsullied (“She feels for the forced loneliness of the Unsullied, and it is loneliness that convinces her to commit violence in the plaza to free the slaves—just as it is in loneliness she chooses violence amidst the Dothraki Sea.”)... And not, y’know, her compassion and sense of justice (“Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”), which are rarely acknowledged in this essay even though it’s arguably the main aspect of Dany's characterization. Why does the essayist do that? Because, since they are arguing that Dany is a tragic hero, they need to present Dany’s loneliness both as the reason why she achieved greatness and as the reason that will lead to her demise when she (supposedly) starts distrusting people, closing herself off and choosing violence (“the moral conviction she feels for her abolitionist crusade is part of the greatness that is also her tragic trait [...] She feels for the forced loneliness of the Unsullied, and it is loneliness that convinces her to commit violence in the plaza to free the slaves—just as it is in loneliness she chooses violence amidst the Dothraki Sea.”). As I said, however, doing so requires downplaying Dany’s compassion, as well as ignoring the fact that she does not close herself off to people in ADWD, nor is there any sign that this was seeded as a serious issue for her in future books (especially considering that her governance is meant to be contrasted with Cersei, the character who actually does close herself off to people. But more on that below when I talk about why Dany doesn’t fit the essayist’s third requirement).

Also, singling out rulership in particular as a reason for Dany to feel alone is conveniently selective (“Returning to Westeros means ruling Westeros - and ruling means loneliness”). All the major characters have reasons to feel lonely and isolated in their society because GRRM chose to focus on the underdogs. Their social standings are already enough to make all of them feel alone. As he said, “Tyrion of course is a dwarf which has its own challenges. Dany is an exile, powerless, penniless, at the mercy of other people, and Jon is a bastard”. You can also throw in Arya for being a young girl struggling to adhere to gender norms and Bran for being a disabled child. And that is just one example… There are a myriad of reasons and situations for various characters to feel lonely and isolated, but the essayist specifically chose to talk about how rulership causes that for Dany. And, considering that the essayist thinks that Dany’s rulership -> growing isolation and loneliness -> her ultimate downfall, it really feels like they’re punishing Dany narratively for acquiring and wielding power. Which leads me to the next point...

2.3) When it comes to Dany’s conflict between home and the Iron Throne, I would argue that that’s not really a conflict. Dany (like any feudal leader) believes she needs to retake the Iron Throne to stay in her homeland just like the Starks believe they need to retake Winterfell to stay in their homeland. Whether Dany finds herself at home in Westeros or not is irrelevant to that fact. And yet, the essayist only presents the former as being in the wrong for fighting for her birthright. However, as it's been already explained before, the Starks’ claim to the North isn’t morally righteous. They only have dominance over the North because, for thousands of years, their ancestors fought against, drove away and killed most of its indigenous population (the Children of the Forest), as well as multiple families who were also vying for control over the region. With that in mind, Dany fighting for her birthright isn’t any more problematic than the Starks enjoying the lands and privileges obtained with conquest and bloodshed, as well as the labor of peasants. One could argue that GRRM may have a double standard against Dany in this case (though it's been argued before that he doesn't intend to present the Iron Throne as a source of greed and evil like how fandom presents it) because of the order of the events and depending on whether he holds Dany accountable for more problems for waging her war than the Starks for having done/doing essentially the same thing, but that’s not what the essayist is doing. Instead, they a) take for granted that Dany is doing the wrong thing for fighting for the Iron Throne ("To delay the call of the North and continue to divide an already weakened realm is to give into dark desires.") and b) center all their speculations about her eventual demise based on that belief.

Ultimately, I would argue that none of these three dilemmas - peace versus violence, companionship versus rulership, home versus the Iron Throne - come with easy answers. When it comes to the first conflict, it’s important that Dany prioritizes the lives of the slaves over the privileges of the masters, but that causes more war and bloodshed. When it comes to the second and the third conflicts, it’s worth noting that the first options (which the essayist presents as the “good” ones) are actually the selfish paths for Dany to take. After all, she would rather live a normal life with a husband (companionship) in the house with the red door (home) - “She would rather have drifted in the fragrant pool all day, eating iced fruit off silver trays and dreaming of a house with a red door, but a queen belongs to her people, not to herself”. But, as the quote shows, instead of choosing these selfish goals, Dany accepts the burden of rulership and the fight for the Iron Throne because of her duty towards her people and ancestors. And, while this path leads to war (either in Meereen or in Westeros, though the former is morally righteous and the latter, while not inherently justified, is not any more problematic than Robb fighting for Northern independence), power is also the means through which Dany can make changes that benefit the common people.

With all that said, it’s ironic that Dany fans are often accused of flattening her character or her choices when it’s actually her detractors or “neutrals” (like the essayist) who do so - they are dead set on portraying Dany’s available options as either “good” or “bad” and on speculating that choosing the latter ones will lead to her downfall, but the text actually gives her conflicts in which all the options have their pros and cons.

The essayist also makes a mistake that isn’t really up to interpretation or difference in opinions. They say that, in AGOT Daenerys III, “after admitting this difficult truth [that Viserys will never take back the Seven Kingdoms], Dany assumes the goal for herself (and at the time, her son)”. That is incorrect. In AGOT Daenerys V, moments before Viserys’s death, Dany says she would have allowed him to have the dragon eggs because “he is my brother … and my true king”. Jorah doesn’t think she should still acknowledge him as such, but she tells him that “he is all I have”. So no, Dany hadn’t assumed the goal for herself at that point, she only took over his campaign in her son's name (not hers) after Viserys's death. But the essayist needs to exaggerate Dany's ambition to justify her demise, since they speculate that “in that hurt and betrayal, all that will be left - she will think - is the crown”.

3) When it comes to requirement 3 (prophecies and “influential accidents” - that is, events that “have roots in a character’s motivation”, as well as “the sense of ‘if only this had not happened’” - will “heighten and exaggerate [tragic flaws that] already [exist]” in Dany), the problem is not in cherry-picking or in double standards against Dany, but rather in the essayist’s lack of knowledge about Dany’s characterization. It’s simply not true that Dany’s distrust of people grows to the point that she closes herself off to them. Instead, I would argue that Dany is actually portrayed as someone with a healthy distrust of people. We know from the books (1, 2, 3, 4) that she finds it unlikely that Barristan, Grey Worm or Missandei would ever betray her, but that she doesn’t think she can rely entirely upon Reznak, the Green Grace, the Shavepate, Hizdahr and Daario. Do Dany’s doubts about these people’s intentions lead her to, as the essayist says, “push people away”? No. Through almost all of ADWD, she (wrongly, though understandably) believes that "until [freedmen and former masters stand together, Meereen will know no peace". Accordingly, Dany is willing to listen to the counsel of all of her advisors (both the ones she trusts and the ones she distrusts) to ensure that she makes informed decisions. To give some examples:

Dany allows “well spoken and gently born” people (i.e., not the typical condition of most former slaves, who are glad that Dany freed them) to sell themselves into slavery and imposes a tax each time men chose to do so like how it happened in Astapor (ASOS Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she agreed with both Missandei and Daario.

Dany employs the Unsullied to ask the Blue Graces if someone showed up with a sword wound and to ask butchers and herdsmen who’s been gelding goats (ADWD Daenerys I). By making this decision, she disagreed with Barristan.

Dany chooses not to punish any noble in response to the murder of Stalwart Shield and only increases the amount of gold for whoever gives information about the Sons of the Harpy (ADWD Daenerys I). By making this decision, she agreed with Reznak and disagreed with the Shavepate.

Dany gives up on banning the tokar and wears it herself (ADWD Daenerys I). By making this decision, she agreed with the Green Grace.

Dany (rightly) refuses to reopen the fighting pits for a while until she later relents in the name of the peace with the Meereenese nobles (ADWD Daenerys I, II, III, VI). By making this decision, she disagreed with Hizdahr, Reznak, the Green Grace and the Shavepate and agreed with Missandei.

Dany delays the choice of a husband until it becomes necessary later (ADWD Daenerys I). By making this decision, she disagreed with Reznak, the Shavepate and the Green Grace.

Dany chooses to pay the shepherds for the animals that they say their dragons ate (ADWD Daenerys I). By making this decision, she disagreed with Reznak.

Dany pays Hazzea’s father the blood price (i.e., one hundred times the worth of a lamb) for her death, lays her bones to rest in the Temple of the Graces and promises to pay for his children each year so they shall not want (ADWD Daenerys II). By making this decision, she disagreed with the Shavepate.

Dany allows the Shavepate to torture the wineseller and his daughters for information about the Sons (ADWD Daenerys II). By making this decision, she agreed with the Shavepate.

Dany imposes a blood tax on the noble families to pay for a new watch led by the Shavepate, takes the gold and the stores of food of any nobleman who wishes to leave the city and keeps two children from each pyramid as hostages instead of letting the nobles go unpunished after nine freedmen were killed by the Sons (ADWD Daenerys II). By making this decision, she agreed with the Shavepate and disagreed with Reznak.

Dany has Barristan and Groleo and his captains and sailors to inspect Xaro’s ships (ADWD Daenerys III). By making this decision, she agreed with Barristan.

Dany chooses not to go to Westeros despite being offered ships to do so (ADWD Daenerys III). By making this decision, she disagreed with Barristan.

Dany doesn’t kill her child hostages despite the Sons’ ongoing attacks (ADWD Daenerys IV). By making this decision, she agreed with the Green Grace and disagreed with the Shavepate.

Dany agrees to marry Hizdahr if he’s able to give her ninety days of peace in Meereen (ADWD Daenerys IV). By making this decision, she agreed with Hizdahr, the Green Grace and Reznak and disagreed with the Shavepate, Barristan, Missandei and Daario.

Dany refuses to gather the masters and kill them indiscriminately (ADWD Daenerys IV). By making this decision, she disagreed with Daario.

Dany doesn’t allow the Shavepate to continue his tortures due to their unreliable results (ADWD Daenerys V). By making this decision, she agreed with Hizdahr and disagreed with the Shavepate.

Dany refuses to use her dragons in battle (ADWD Daenerys V). By making this decision, she agreed with Reznak.

Dany decides not to take the field against Yunkai (ADWD Daenerys V). By making this decision, she agreed with the Shavepate and disagreed with Barristan.

Dany brings the food to the Astapori refugees instead of sending someone else to do it (ADWD Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she disagreed with Reznak, the Shavepate and Barristan.

Dany burns the dead among the Astapori refugees, bathes an old man and shames her men into helping her (ADWD Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she disagreed with Barristan.

Dany refuses to allow Hizdahr’s mother and sisters to inspect her womb and to wash Hizdahr’s feet before he washes hers (ADWD Daeneerys VI). By making this decision, she disagreed with the Green Grace and Reznak.

Dany decides to marry Hizdahr by Ghiscari rites and to wear a white tokar fringed with pearls (ADWD Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she agreed with the Green Grace and Reznak.

Dany allows Hizdahr to reopen the fighting pits (ADWD Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she agreed with Hizdahr, the Green Grace and Reznak.

Dany goes along with a peace agreement with the Yunkish slavers in which she’ll let Yunkai and Astapor reinstall slavery if they leave Meereen intact (ADWD Daenerys VI). By making this decision, she agreed with Hizdahr.

Dany holds court in order to, among other reasons, meet the Westerosi men that came over from the Windblown (ADWD Daenerys VII). By making this decision, she agreed with Daario.

Dany doesn’t accept Quentyn’s marriage proposal because she doesn’t want to abandon her people (ADWD Daenerys VII). By making this decision, she disagreed with Barristan.

Dany doesn’t ride a horse in a tokar to meet Hizdahr (ADWD Daenerys VII). By making this decision, she agreed with Missandei.

Dany decides not to sound out the Company of the Cats (even though she wanted to) because Barristan says he's untrustworthy (ADWD Daenerys VIII). By making this decision, she agreed with Barristan.

Dany attends the reopening of the pits (ADWD Daenerys IX). By making this decision, she disagreed with Missandei.

Dany allows the Brazen Beasts to guard her because she wants to show that she trusts them so that her people can trust them as well (ADWD Daenerys IX). By making this decision, she disagreed with Barristan.

Dany prevents Tyrion and Penny from fighting against lions with wooden swords. By making this decision, she disagreed with Hizdahr.

I didn’t include all of Dany’s decisions because she makes many of them on her own and/or without someone explicitly supporting them or opposing them (in fact, many of the ones above were made without any advisor giving her their feedback, but I listed them if they’re seen agreeing or disagreeing with her onpage anyway). That being said, note that Reznak is the one that Dany is most suspicious of (because he perfectly fits the description of one of the treasoners), but that five of her decisions follow his recommendations, in contrast to Barristan (the knight who she actually trusts and who keeps all her secrets) only having his advice followed twice. Also note that Dany “trusted Skahaz more than she trusted Hizdahr”, but she agreed with the former three times and disagreed with him eight times, in contrast to having agreed with the latter four times and disagreed with him twice. The list clearly shows that Dany listens to everyone’s feedback (including from people she distrusts), considers it carefully, makes her own decisions and handles dissent extremely well. Her actions reflect her own words (“A queen must listen to all. [...] One voice may speak you false, but in many there is always truth to be found”, “It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone”).

There is, however, one character who is seen only listening to people who agree with her and who distrusts and closes herself off to almost everyone - Cersei Lannister. And it’s especially worth noting that Cersei is meant to be “directly contrasted” with Dany, that the author was “doing point and counterpoint” with them and that each of them is meant to show “a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world”. In other words, Dany and Cersei are narrative foils, but Cersei’s traits are being transferred to Dany in this essay.

Also, I could just as easily create an entire narrative about how Sansa will end up closing herself off to people based on what we see on canon. She thought she could trust Joffrey, but she ultimately couldn’t. She thought she could trust Cersei, but she ultimately couldn’t. She trusted Sandor, but he left her. She tried to trust the Tyrells, but they ultimately disposed of her after she was no longer necessary. She tried to rely on Dontos, but he was a disappointment and was ultimately murdered. She doesn’t trust Littlefinger, but she needs to stick to his side because she has no better option. She considered telling the Vale lords her identity, but she doesn’t trust them. All of this feeds into Sansa’s distrust of others and will lead to tragic consequences. Indeed, as Sansa herself says, "In life, the monsters win". I bet that the essayist would find this whole speculation biased considering that they favor Sansa's character. But then, why is only Dany singled out as the one who is going to meet her demise even though it’s made clear that she continues to trust people through and through?

The essayist needs to say that Dany starts distrusting people to an unhealthy degree (“As Dany gains more power, [...] her focus on the treasons causes her to push people away, widening the gap between rulership and companionship”; ”The more power she gains, the greater her isolation and likely her fear of betrayal. The fear of betrayal is, of course, human. But GRRM has stated that he likes to turn dramatic situations up to 11, which is necessary to create the Shakespearean tragic hero. Dany’s fear must be larger than life.”), as well as to judge her campaign to take back the Seven Kingdoms based on double standards (“Dany’s great sin within the story’s moral order will have been focusing on the war for Westeros against Aegon VI before she turns to the enemy of the North”) compared to the Starks. If they didn’t do so, there wouldn’t be a reason to justify Dany’s demise. If they didn’t do so, the entire speculation that she’s a Shakespearean tragic hero falls apart. But saying that something is true doesn’t necessarily make it true, you need to provide the textual evidence (which they barely do … They assume that the reader will take almost everything they say for granted. After all, since there’s a prophecy foretelling that Dany will be betrayed three times, of course she’s going to distrust people way too much from now on).

There’s also another aspect of Dany’s relationship with prophecies that the essayist portrays inaccurately. They say that “the effect of this prophecy on Daenerys is multifaceted” for “[promising] greatness” (which, along with the also inaccurate statement that “part of Dany’s pursuit of the Iron Throne is born from a sense of destiny”, implies that Dany wants to be great or that she thinks of herself as great, none of which are true) and pushing her “further from the people who surround her”. I already questioned the latter statement, and the former is inaccurate too. After all, Dany has doubts that there are men in Westeros waiting for the Targaryens to return. The birth of the dragons has to do with the fact that Dany was able to put two and two together with clues from dragon dreams and Mirri's words, not because she thinks she's exceptional. Dany is not really sure that the red comet was meant for her. She followed its direction because the other paths weren't reliable and, even in Qarth, she's unsure that it was meant to guide her to success. Then she never thinks about it again. I'd expect otherwise from someone who thinks they're exceptional. Dany is surprised when told by Quaithe that she's the reason why magic is increasing in the world and never thinks or brags about it after their interaction. I'd expect otherwise from someone who thinks they're exceptional. Dany doesn't think she won any victories in the House of the Undying, she credits Drogon for burning the Undying Ones. She only allows Jhiqui to add a bell to the end of her braid because "the Dothraki would esteem her all the more for a few bells in her hair". Dany refuses to sit on the throne inside the Great Pyramid's audience chamber and chooses to sit on a simple ebony bench that the Meereenese think does "not befit a queen". Dany refuses the offer to have a statue in her image to replace the bronze harpy in the Plaza of Purification. I'd expect otherwise from someone who thinks they're exceptional. Dany is highly self-critical and, later in ADWD, thinks that she "was as clean as she was ever going to be" after taking a bath because she holds herself accountable for the upcoming slaughter in the opening of the fighting pits. I'd expect different from someone that thinks they're exceptional. Dany doesn’t think that the people who came to the reopening of the pits wanted to see her - “it was my floppy ears they cheered, not me”. I'd expect different from someone that thinks they're exceptional. Most of Dany's titles (the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Mhysa, Azor Ahai, etc) are given to her by other people, they're not self-proclaimed (not that there's a problem if they were, I'm only saying it to reiterate that Dany doesn't think she's exceptional). The ones that she assumes on her own are the ones that anyone who believes in birthright (i.e., everyone in her time and place, regardless of family, regardless of whether they're Targaryens) would assume.

4) When it comes to requirement 4 (Dany will (according to the essayist’s speculations) take actions that produce “exceptional calamity” and her demise will be “her own choice and doing”) … Well, we now enter the realm of speculation. It’s not impossible that Dany “will feel like a villain to the Westerosi, as she burns their villages and crops ahead of a hard winter” in the future. The problem here, once again, is in the double standards. Look at the way the essayist describes the likely reascendance of the Starks in the upcoming books - “With the death of “good” characters like Ned, the injury of innocents and moments such as the Red Wedding, ASOIAF as a story is not concerned with justice. But as the story progresses, we see that the way Ned ruled his people and raised his children contrasts with characters like Tywin and his methods. Much of the North seems to continue to rally behind the idea of the Starks, some with less “honorable” methods than others, while Tywin’s legacy begins to fall apart. Like in Shakespeare’s tragic world, there appears to be an order that arcs towards a higher idea of goodness that instills a dramatic satisfaction”. Like I said above when I questioned requirement 2, the Starks’ claim to the North is no more justified than Dany’s to the Seven Kingdoms. They have the advantage of having had their rule normalized throughout the thousands of years they ruled the North, but it doesn’t change the fact that, because they’re feudal lords, they still maintain a system rigged in favor of the nobles that promotes social inequality and extreme lack of social mobility. It doesn’t change the fact that there's no righteous form of feudalism. But only Dany is criticized in that sense by the essayist - “By nature, power breeds inequality, when one party has the ability to decide the fate of another. That inequality creates distance. As a queen Dany wields absolute power over the rest of her subjects and her court”. Which is pretty infuriating not only because the Starks are also morally grey in the sense that the essayist describes, but also because GRRM specifically mentioned that Daenerys is the ruler "who wants equality for everyone, she wants to be at the same level as her people". Additionally, if Ned left a legacy that motivated his people to fight against his enemies, so did Dany with the former slaves. But the essayist needs to ignore all of that to paint Dany as a Shakespearean tragic hero.

Even if we don’t take into account what TWOIAF reveals about the Starks’ ancestors, the main story itself often paints House Stark’s actions in a negative light. We see a peasant spitting at the mention of the Starks and saying that things were better with King Aerys II in power. We're told that Northmen looking for Jaime on Edmure’s orders burned a village called Sallydance and were guilty of rape and murder. It’s no wonder that the High Sparrow mentions the wolves along with the lions as threats to the septas. Also, thousands of soldiers died indirectly because of Robb’s decisions, as well as lots of people who remained north and became vulnerable to raping and pillaging due to his inability to hold Winterfell. And finally, when winter comes, the smallfolk will be affected by the actions of the northmen, who (like Dany might do in the future) already helped to disrupt the harvest and to leave the continent short on food. And yet, why is their future success framed as “an order that arcs towards a higher idea of goodness”? Why is Dany the only one who is said to be “giv[ing] into dark desires” by “divid[ing] an already weakened realm” when the Starks (framed as the heroes in the essay) did the same thing? This double standard gets infuriating when one remembers that Dany is the one fighting a war in the name of the disenfranchised (even though she is not connected to them by blood or lands or oath of fealty and doesn’t gain anything by helping them), while the Starks are (and will be, if they want to retake Winterfell) fighting a war because of personal injury (which, sympathetic as it may be, doesn’t justify the damage that they caused to the smallfolk). It gets even more infuriating when, as @rakharo pointed out to me, one remembers that, while Dany is trying to right the wrongs of the Valyrians by ending slavery in Slaver’s Bay, none of the Starks have acknowledged, much less tried to make amends for injustices perpetrated by the First Men against the Children of the Forest. It gets even more infuriating when one remembers that Aegon the Conqueror united Westeros in preparation for the War for the Dawn (something that GRRM himself confirmed), while the Starks’ ancestors conquered the North solely because of their greed. That's why Dany’s story can’t be effective as a tragedy: she’d be punished for starting to do what everyone else was doing after doing more than almost everyone else was doing.

5) When it comes to requirement 5 (Dany “[rose] high in position” and is “an exceptional being”, which sets her apart as a character that fits the mold of the Shakespearean tragedy because her reversal of fortune will highlight “the greatness and piteousness of humanity”), again, we’re in the realm of speculation. But there are some things to question as well. First, the essayist validates the criticisms that Dany “too easily ascends to a position of power” by using them as proof that she’s a tragic character. But that’s not really true, which becomes clear with a few comparisons: the Starks lost their father, mother and older brother throughout the story because of the Lannisters, which Dany also did; but her losses go beyond them: she also lost another brother, her first husband and her first child. The Starks had their direwolves given to them, Dany had to use her intuition and then literally walk into a fire to birth her dragons. Aegon the Conqueror used dragons to take Westeros, Dany conquered three cities without barely using hers. Jon Snow’s conflict in ADWD involves conciliating the Free Folk and the Night’s Watch after he makes decisions favoring the former group, while Dany’s involves conciliating the freedmen and the slavers after she makes decisions favoring the former group, which has a worldwide impact; Jon’s conflict has relatively low stakes (because it hasn’t involved the Others so far), Dany’s conflict leads to “half the world” wanting her dead. As these examples show, Dany suffered more losses than the Starks. Dany had to do a lot more than the Starks to find her animal companions. Dany became a conqueror primarily because of her military strategies and resourcefulness without relying on dragonfire like her ancestor. Dany faced greater opposition than her male counterpart Jon so far. As we can see, gaining power and retaining it has not been easy for Dany at all. Every single one of her accomplishments has been earned. But it sure is interesting that Dany’s supposed future tragedies must stem from her actions, but that her victories aren’t given the proper credit and acknowledged as being a result of what she also did as well.

And then the essayist declares something even more inaccurate: that Dany “overcame each obstacle that came her way” and that “Robb and Jon paid for their mistakes while Dany did not” (which, to the essayist, is evidence that “Dany’s fall is meant to stand in contrast as something grander than just one slip-up”).

First of all, Dany clearly did not overcome every obstacle that came her way. Saying so means ignoring all of her ADWD storyline (and it’s funny how Dany's detractors go from saying that she’s overpowered and hasn’t suffered consequences to accusing her of being a bad ruler precisely because she dealt with the negative consequences of her choices, lol). To recap, Dany had an indirect part in the wars outside Meereen because she left the Yunkish slavers’ wealth intact, which leads to terrible consequences - multiple city-states and sellsword companies joining forces against her, Astapor’s fall, the pale mare’s outbreak, the emergence of refugees from Astapor outside her city and the upcoming Battle of Fire. Dany had an indirect role in the wars inside Meereen because she left most of the Meereenese slavers alive with most of their wealth intact, which leads to terrible consequences - the Sons of the Harpy’s attacks and dozens of freedmen’s deaths. Additionally, Dany had an indirect role in Hazzea’s death because Drogon was allowed to roam freely and she had no way to train him or her brothers. All these problems culminate in Dany agreeing with a peace deal that, as already explained here, was inherently unjust for prioritizing the slavers over the freedmen. Dany had to learn that, as much as she wants peace and to plant trees, there are situations in which she can’t be merciful because violence really is the only way to achieve justice for the disenfranchised. (On the flip side, that’s one of the reasons why I’m critical of the theory that Dany accidentally burns King’s Landing. When she was merciful, as I just listed, great tragedies occurred (which is fine, it was a realistic exploration of what happens when you abolish slavery and try to do good). When she used fire and blood, great tragedies will occur too? Even though she would be acting just like the Starks or any other feudal lord by fighting for her birthright? The theory narratively punishes Dany in a way that it doesn't do with the Starks, which is why it's no wonder that it was created by someone with Stark/Stannis biases. Additionally, it validates the common belief that Dany is only meant to be a wartime queen, even though she’s already showed that she’s a good peacetime ruler.)

Second, is dying the only way to pay for one’s mistakes (considering that only Robb and Jon are listed as examples of characters who did)? I don’t think so. Consider Sansa. Didn’t she pay for the mistake of going to Cersei to tell her of Ned’s plan? I would say she did. I would say the author agrees - “Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death”. Similarly, Dany had to accept her indirect responsibility for the tragedies that I just listed (Hazzea, forgive me; No marriage would ever bring them back to life, but if a husband could help end the slaughter, then she owed it to her dead to marry.; “I should’ve gone to Astapor. [...] I am the queen. It was my place to know.”; “What kind of mother has no milk to feed her children?”). I would argue that Dany and Sansa both paid for her mistakes, which were acknowledged, made them suffer and influenced their character developments. But the essayist needs to say that Dany didn’t pay for them (or that she had an easy rise to power) to help to paint her as a Shakespearean tragic hero.

6) Now that the essayist’s five requirements have all been questioned, I would also like to mention positive prophecies and speculations related to Dany that are never brought up in this essay.

First, Dany is AA/PTWP/SWMTW. That was heavily foreshadowed (read more about it here) and built up to and, if it doesn’t happen, it frankly would be bad writing. After all, haven’t readers praised GRRM for the foreshadowing of Ned’s death (e.g., a stag having killed the mother direwolf in the beginning of AGOT)? Haven’t readers praised GRRM for the foreshadowing of the Red Wedding (which we see from Tyrion’s to Theon’s to Dany’s chapters)? And yet, the essayist thinks that Dany’s death will cause “the forces [to] become more even, making victory less sure, or the Others surpass the side of the living in strength” and that “the White Walkers gain Drogon, becoming one-on-one but with the White Walkers having the larger dragon.”

Second, Dany and Bran both have dreams in AGOT leading up to their magical awakening. Bran needs to fly to escape from the “cold” of the darkness below, while Dany needs to run from the “icy breath behind”. Both of these dreams culminate with Bran and Dany learning to fly and accepting their magical destinies, which will be important in the War for the Dawn. And yet, the essayist thinks that “by understanding that the concept of warmth is tied to companionship, we can understand that the cold, “icy breath” must represent the opposite: loneliness” to justify Dany’s demise. Instead, it's clear (especially considering the parallels with Bran) that "icy breath" is an allusion to the Others. But they can't acknowledge that Dany will have a crucial role in the War for the Dawn, otherwise their entire speculation falls apart.

Third, Quaithe was presented as the third of the three Qartheen envoys (after Pyat Pree and Xaro) that came to find Dany in Vaes Tolorro, which heavily implies that she breaks the norm and is the one person that Dany can trust. And yet, the essayist takes for granted that Quaithe’s “narrative connection to betrayal is already established”.

Fourth, Dany might as well be the prophesied betrayer, not the one who’s betrayed by three people (after all, she’s already been betrayed by more than three people - Jorah, Mirri, Pyat Pree, Xaro, Brown Ben, the person that gave her the poisoned locusts, etc). It would fit with the pattern of Dany being an active participant in the prophecies rather than a passive one (e.g. Dany is AA/PTWP, not the one who gives birth to the AA/PTWP or the one who dies as a sacrifice to AA/PTWP) even though, at first, the readership is expected to think otherwise. And yet, the essayist takes for granted that Dany will be betrayed because otherwise their entire speculation falls apart.

Fifth, Dany is foreshadowed to have a positive relationship with Jon because “the blue flower” from the “wall of ice” filled the air with “sweetness”. And yet, the essayist needs to say that Dany "[will push] Jon away [...] from fear of betrayal and hurt” and from worries that he might be a “usurper” (nevermind that they are mischaracterizing Dany as someone overfocused on retaking the Iron Throne and who closes herself off due to prophecies, none of which are not true, as I already showed above) because otherwise their entire speculation falls apart.

7) Finally, I would also like to ask: what’s the point of giving Dany a storyline like this? Not only because it would be unearned due to the double standards and the changes that would have to occur in her characterization, but also because Dany has a special place in the narrative. She is 1) one of the two women (along with Asha) claiming power in her own right and the only one that we actually got to see rule, 2) one of three Chosen Ones (along with Bran and Jon) and the only female one, 3) one of two POV revolutionaries (along with Jon) and the only female one (and the one whose storyline arguably has the most political messages since she’s fighting against human slavery), 4) one of two POV female rulers (along with Cersei) and the only one who’s been depicted as competent (because she subverts the Good Princess Evil Queen dichotomy), 5) one of two Targaryen conquerors (three, if Young Griff does indeed take Westeros) and the only female one - “Aegon the Conqueror with teats”, 6) the only major mother who isn’t sure to be doomed and/or hasn’t gone mad, 7) one of two Targaryen queens regnant (along with Rhaenyra) and the only remaining Targaryen woman who gets to have power after a long line of Targaryen women - Rhaenyra herself, but also Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaella, Daenerys (Alysanne’s daughter), Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was, Baela, Rhaena of Pentos, Daena - who were disempowered. GRRM already has a terrible history with female leaders in particular. If he causes the downfall of another one (especially one who is also one of the five main protagonists) for such unearned reasons like the ones that the essayist laid out, there would also be sexist implications. It would make the only she-king that we saw wielding power onpage overly defined by violence and destruction in a way kings don't have to be depending on their actions, it makes the only competent POV female ruler look incompetent in comparison to the other POV male rulers and it makes her conquest a disaster while the other male Targaryen conqueror (two, if Young Griff takes Westeros) gets to succeed. And yet, death by childbirth is the only speculation that the essayist calls out as problematic (“death by childbirth is a uniquely biologically female phenomenon and would be punishing Daenerys for her sexuality”).

8) What I find insidious about essays like this one is that they pretend to be unbiased (I do not argue for the death of Daenerys as a judgement on her ethical/moral goodness as a character nor of the world she inhabits. I argue it on the strength of her characterization and story, that she should be able to encompass such intensity and greatness as to be considered as complex as all these other single-name headliners in literature.) even though they really aren't. To recap, the essayist portrays Dany as someone with "violent" impulses even though she's a merciful person in general, accepts the peace deal with the slavers as valid even though it prioritizes the slavers' privileges over the lives of marginalized people, only talks about the negative connotations of fire, downplays Dany's compassion and sense of justice, argues that Dany is losing her ability to trust others even though she isn't, says that Dany is negatively affected by promises of greatness even though she isn't, argues that Dany had an easy rise to power and didn't pay for her mistakes even though she did, paints Dany's campaign to take the Iron Throne in a negative light without doing the same with the Starks having dominance over the North and ignores Dany's foreshadowing as AA/PTWP, as well as her special place in the narrative. So it’s not that Dany stans are unable to accept Dany’s mistakes and flaws, it’s that people who dislike her can’t understand her characterization or acknowledge the double standards against her or accept her particular place in the story. At the end of the day, an essay like this one is no better than jonsa metas mindlessly hating on Dany because, just like them, as @semperty and @niniane17 made clear, it also creates speculations with the intent of making Dany self-destruct and become irrelevant to pave the way for their preferred characters. The only difference is that it's more successful at appearing "neutral" to someone who doesn't remember what happened in the books very well, especially because Dany has become a polarizing character for a variety of reasons and it's easy to buy into the Appeal to Moderation fallacy.

Also, as I said before, the fact that these Twitter 'neutrals' all misunderstand Dany's characterization, downplay her struggles and judge her by different standards actually makes me somewhat hopeful that she's getting a better ending, because how can their speculations come true if they don't know Dany at all? But then, it's hard to trust GRRM.

[atopvisenyashill]

Dead dudes club Anon: I meant that Tywin, Rickard and Hoster dies when their kids are still young leaving their wives as regents for their sons. Like let's say Tywin who doesn't lose his wife but is so worked up that he has a dwarf son that he ends up falling down the stairs and breaks his neck. Hoster could die in a hunting accident sometime after Edmure is born and Rickard ends up with some sort of illness after he and Lyarra have Benjen.

i would like to apologize in advance for my incessant use of em dashes in this post lol. okay even with some adjustments, you run into an issue here where-

steffon, aerys, tywin, rickard, AND hoster all die within a few years of each other, and that’s going to cause a mass conspiracy. i mean JUST jon arryn dying was enough to make the twins suspicious maybe he was onto them & that man was old as balls. nearly every lord paramount dying within a few years is soooo weird. “well doesn’t this essentially happen in canon” yeah because of the political unrest happening tho lol there’s a Reason for it.

there’s no way for steffon to die in the shipwreck and cassana to be regent because robert is already 16 at that point - remember he’s a few years older than the twins! and you can’t have cassana be regent without butterflying away renly bc he’s born 277 and they die in early 279.

also hey 🤧🤧 i did the math just right there on tywin!!! the defiance of duskendale happens in 277, so the twins were only 10-11, which means joanna is regent for a few years still.

we could easily kill rickard off in a wildling excursion but brandon is 20 when he dies in canon which means he’s been lord of winterfell for four-ish years so no matter what, lyarra isn’t the one calling the shots by the time ~the plot~ really starts. i figured it might work better if lyarra is at winterfell when rickard & brandon die bc even tho everything falls to ned next, having a grown adult as The Stark In Winterfell while ned is in the wind/in the vale is interesting - unlike benjen, Lyarra can lead troops into battle. If she had been regent, it’s likely Lyarra is at Riverrun with the Tully kids and Minisa for the wedding though, which could also be interesting and i suppose also gives her more of a chance to actually LEAD because we know it takes a minute for northerners to get past the neck - as robb says, they even wind up starting the war without half their force bc a bunch of the mountain clans couldn’t get there in time. but if lyarra is there for the wedding, that puts her in a position to lead. especially without aerys there to call the parents to court - i don’t think rhaella is going to pull a stunt like that.

i think hoster or rickard is the easiest to handwave murder off - hoster is always up to some shit and both the wildlings and skaagosi have historically picked fights with the north from time to time.

and regardless of alla that, rhaella is likely to seize the regency with tywin’s help anyway - tywin has already made a name for himself, is aerys’ friend, and tyrion won’t be born until 273, which is eleven years after jaehaerys ii dies.

most of my answer still stands here - rhaella is taking the throne with tywin by her side, and you can bet in the years between cersei’s birth & his death, he’s going to be pushing rhaegar/cersei as a match, something that will be in rhaegar & rhaella minds after he dies; either minisa or cassana are likely to be the architects of the southron ambitions plot alongside jon arryn, and that alliance is still going to cause problems for the crown when rhaegar loses his mind, because the moment brandon doesn’t get a straight answer about where lyanna is, Lyarra is probably going to use the northern host to start sacking cities and searching for her daughter (since she hasn’t been brought to the capital to burn by rhaella).

the biggest change here is probably the twincest. we know joanna knows about it early on BUT. tyrion’s birth is likely going to put her out of commission for a minute or two. he’s born in 273 so if we say she’s healthy enough to start moving around by 275 (which. omg these two idiots were really out here feeling each other up at the age of like 6 ajsjs 😭), i imagine she broaches the question of jaime’s marriage at this point, which is probably also when rhaella starts asking around for suggestions for rhaegar. if tywin dies after tyrion, i can’t see her fostering jaime out because he’s lord now and she’s the regent. if she catches them together again, it’s probably cersei she sends away - maybe to lannisport, maybe to the capital (with herself, and kevan stays at the rock to train jaime). even if we have tywin die at duskendale, at that point the twins are 11, and it probably amounts to the same - cersei is sent away while jaime stays home. once he’s closer to 16, she’s going to start talking about jaime marrying elia, and cersei Will attempt to sabotage this.

the canon event goes: jaime helps defeat the smiling knight -> jaime stops at KL to see cersei -> cersei tells him about the lysa betrothal & jaime joins the kingsguard. this tracks even with tywin dead - again, likely (imo) joanna and cersei go back to the capital once she’s healed, and there will be still be an opening on the kingsguard. cersei has also spent several years with rhaegar at this point - he would have married around 176ish, so Maybe they’re married to each other or maybe she’s a lady to his wife - and rhaegar no longer has to listen to rhaella. if cersei is like “heyyyyyy rhaegar, babyyyyyy” WELL….especially if CERSEI is married to rhaegar. but even married to someone else, i mean, the first step to making sure they’re together forever is to make sure HE can’t marry lol. it MIGHT not happen - jaime has spent the last several years not as heir but as LORD and he might take giving it up a bit more seriously But he might not! if this plan is foiled, you can bet joanna is not only asking loreza if elia and jaime can marry RIGHT NOW (IF rhaegar’s bride isn’t elia), she’s also going to do something drastic re: cersei. and like idk man what do you do if your kids won’t stop fucking? send cersei to be a septa? to the silent sisters? she might, if cersei isn’t married yet, get cersei married quickly and far away from jaime but if cersei marries rhaegar, well……she’s not foiling this plot, it’s happening for sure. so basically either cersei marries rhaegar & jaime is on the kingsguard OR cersei is lady to his wife, which Might still let her plan happen.

[hilarychuff]

idk if any of this says anything but i word dumped some jon thoughts

i wrote this yesterday and said i’d read it today to see if it said anything but i’ve decided i don’t care to reread it lmao but i also spent too much time enjoying myself trying to link and collect my thoughts yesterday to just delete it so posting for posterity at least

anyway below this point is what i had previously enjoy as is unmoderated should it please you

---

ok sorry to go on another rant again immediately and also one that is again not super on topic but like!!!! i was reading this post from @reginarubie about jon thinking he should’ve stayed in that cave with ygritte and it sent my brain off and it’s sort of similar to what i was just saying in here!!! 

@reginarubie talked about it in terms of identity and romancing ygritte’s memory but i also think it’s about like. the weight of the world that jon carries and trying to live up to expectations of what is good/right while also doing what is actually good/right 

jon and sansa are very similar people in a lot of ways and one of those ways is in wanting to be like objectively good within the confines of the society they live in but also torn bc they want to do the right thing 

this took a super winding path and also i accidentally wrote a whole disorganized essay but more under the cut again 

ok so like i was saying, i feel like jon and sansa both want to be like seen as good within the societal standards/norms — which is a conflict for them because they also want to actually be good and they see when those moments are at odds sometimes 

start by taking for example arya, who also wants to be objectively good but the difference with her is that she isn’t trying to conform to society’s standards, she is frustrated that society won’t meet her where she’s at. she wants to be seen as good for the things she is naturally good at herself rather than trying to fit into the rigid mold of what society sees as good

sansa and jon are much more willing to contort themselves into being good based on what other people think is good/what they think is available to them 

sansa for example — we see how hard sansa is trying to do her best and be polite and courteous and never offend anyone even when she’s scared, like with the hound and ilyn payne on the king’s road in book 1

and we see her at the crossroads unable to figure out whether she’s supposed to align with her betrothed/the crown prince/the queen/her future family (and in doing so lie about what happened/side against her sister) or whether she’s supposed to align with her sister/the truth (and in doing so actively oppose the crown prince/her future betrothed who she has now seen has a mean/vindictive/violent streak). she can’t figure out what the right answer is societally or within herself and so she tries to waffle and come down in the middle/avoid choosing by saying “i don’t remember” and instead she alienates arya and joffrey and cersei and also loses lady 

similarly jon has that thought of being like “once jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as robb” but he eventually realizes that won’t work because he doesn’t occupy the same space in society as robb. he can’t be good/true in the same ways, so he has to figure out a different way to be good within his position as a bastard — which is why he decides to go to the wall where he can be good/true/noble/a hero in a different capacity where he’s not held back by his family status 

when he longs for the cave i think he is also longing for a moment where he got to just like. take a deep breath and drop the burden of trying to be good and just try to be. instead of grappling with his desire to keep his vows/be a good brother of the night’s watch/sacrifice being seen as good in order to actually be good, he gets to just, for a little bit, live in the moment and think about what he wants or what makes him feel good 

and what he has in that moment is a private place where he can just be jon not jon snow not eddard stark’s son not a brother of the night’s watch, just jon

and what jon wants is to eat a girl out!!!!!!!!!!!!! and not think of the ramifications of that just enjoy himself!!!!!! important!!!!! lmfao 

but also, right after sex seems to be the only moments where ygritte was like. soft and tender with him, which he seems to like 

His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple. “Isn’t that sweet?” she said again. “Not so fast, oh, slow, yes, like that. There now, there now, yes, sweet, sweet. You know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. Harder now. Yessss.”

A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I’d abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. It need never happen again. He was still a man of the Night’s Watch, and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven.

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet.

it’s the her sleeping with her head on his chest that is “dangerously sweet” to him 

and then in the cave

Afterward, she was almost shy, or as shy as Ygritte ever got. “That thing you did,” she said, when they lay together on their piled clothes. “With your … mouth.” She hesitated. “Is that … is it what lords do to their ladies, down in the south?”

and then later in the cave after they have a fairly typical jon-ygritte back and forth teasing conversation (that makes jon uncomfortable when ygritte insists that he stole her first)

She pushed him back down on the clothes and straddled him. “Would you … ” She hesitated.

“What?” he prompted, as the torch began to gutter.

“Do it again?” Ygritte blurted. “With your mouth? The lord’s kiss? And I … I could see if you liked it any.”

By the time the torch burned out, Jon Snow no longer cared.

i don’t think it is irrelevant that the fond memory jon associates with ygritte is one of the few times where she was like sweet with him and not just forward, because it gave him a chance to assert his own agency instead of just following her lead/doing what she wanted or insisted

being with ygritte on ygritte’s terms and in front of all the other wildlings he definitely sexually enjoys but it’s also like necessary for his survival bc her lying that they were together was what got mance to (tentatively) trust jon and some of the other wildlings still very much do not trust jon (and they shouldn’t! he’s still planning to betray them at some point and stay loyal to the watch!). being with ygritte on his own terms and without any outside influence or witnesses allowed that moment to exist just for him as something he wanted, not something he enjoyed despite himself/his guilt 

but that aside it’s also a moment where he got to just relax 

in the cave he gets to exist without thinking about how he’s a) betraying his vows by being with ygritte b) betraying ygritte by staying loyal to the watch 

in the cave, both the watch and the rest of the wildlings don’t exist to them. for jon, their reality outside of the cave still exists, but it can briefly disappear for every moment he decides to stay in the cave longer 

when the torch starts to go out, reality sets in for jon, and he suggests that it’s time to go — but ygritte is like “what if we didn’t?” and he’s like…. ok excellent point. 

but then the guilt sets in AGAIN and they start to leave AGAIN and then AGAIN they’re like “what if we didn’t?”

“We had best go up. The torch is almost done.”

“Is the crow afeared o’ Gendel’s children?” she said, with a grin. “It’s only a little way up, and I’m not done with you, Jon Snow.” She pushed him back down on the clothes and straddled him. “Would you … ” She hesitated.

“What?” he prompted, as the torch began to gutter.

“Do it again?” Ygritte blurted. “With your mouth? The lord’s kiss? And I … I could see if you liked it any.”

By the time the torch burned out, Jon Snow no longer cared.

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good?

The grotto was pitch-dark by the time they finished. The only light was the dim glow of the passage back up to the larger cavern, where a score of fires burned. They were soon fumbling and bumping into each other as they tried to dress in the dark. Ygritte stumbled into the pool and screeched at the cold of the water. When Jon laughed, she pulled him in too. They wrestled and splashed in the dark, and then she was in his arms again, and it turned out they were not finished after all.

“Jon Snow,” she told him, when he’d spent his seed inside her, “don’t move now, sweet. I like the feel of you in there, I do. Let’s not go back t’ Styr and Jarl. Let’s go down inside, and join up with Gendel’s children. I don’t ever want t’ leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever.”

as long as they stay in the cave, they keep a tough reality and the responsibilities that come with it at bay and they just get to have the part that feels good guilt-free, and ygritte is like “what if we could always live down here guilt free”

jon knows it’s not realistic (and so does ygritte and they do eventually leave obviously) but it’s the fantasy that he’s thinking of

and i think it’s similar to sansa thinking back to winterfell like “i thought my song was just starting when i left home but it turns out it was ending.” in king’s landing she had to always be careful what she did/said/who she trusted to try and survive joffrey, and even when she is in the vale she knows she can’t let her guard down. that’s where we get the “i never asked to play the game of thrones, one slip and i am dead” quote

she’s reflecting back on a time when she didn’t have to live that way. it’s not that she thought everything was so perfect at the time when she was there, because back when she was there she thought her life was boring and that the adventure would start when she one day went south to find love, it’s that hindsight allows her to look back on it and be like “remember when i was operating at a time when the stakes were actually way fucking lower and i didn’t have to weigh every possible outcome and think one million thoughts before making each decision”

basically just “remember when it was easy to feel good and i didn’t have to try so hard”

i mean because also remember the context for when jon is thinking about the cave/ygritte  

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame. I should have stayed in that cave with Ygritte. If there was a life beyond this one, he hoped to tell her that. She will claw my face the way the eagle did, and curse me for a coward, but I'll tell her all the same. He flexed his sword hand, as Maester Aemon had taught him. The habit had become part of him, and he would need his fingers to be limber to have even half a chance of murdering Mance Rayder.

he’s preparing to go talk to mance rayder after alliser thorne and janos slynt sent him there basically imagining it to be his execution 

here is them sending him

“That old maester says I cannot hang you,” Slynt declared. 

… “Still,” Slynt said, “I will not have it said that Janos Slynt hanged a man unjustly. I will not. I have decided to give you one last chance to prove you are as loyal as you claim, Lord Snow. One last chance to do your duty, yes!” He stood. “Mance Rayder wants to parley with us. He knows he has no chance now that Janos Slynt has come, so he wants to talk, this King-beyond-the-Wall. But the man is craven, and will not come to us. No doubt he knows I’d hang him. Hang him by his feet from the top of the Wall, on a rope two hundred feet long! But he will not come. He asks that we send an envoy to him.” “We’re sending you, Lord Snow.” Ser Alliser smiled.

basically “i want to hang you but i’m not allowed and i thought about doing it anyway but then i came up with a mission that will kill you without smearing my own name or honor" and jon knows it and thinks of it as a suicide mission 

The trap had teeth. … Whether he slew Mance or only tried and failed, the free folk would kill him.

of course, he could not accept the mission and just accept the consequences, but it seems like those consequences are possibly also just die

“He asked for an envoy, we are sending one,” said Slynt. “If you are too craven to face this turncloak king, we can return you to your ice cell. This time without the furs, I think. Yes.”

reads to me as good chances he might freeze to death or they at least mean for him to

but regardless even if it was survivable they also know that he would not choose that bc targeting his honor is the real way to hit him where it hurts. here’s the larger quote 

“He asked for an envoy, we are sending one,” said Slynt. “If you are too craven to face this turncloak king, we can return you to your ice cell. This time without the furs, I think. Yes.”

“No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.”

Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. 

he even basically admits it to them that they got him but also gets in his own “absolutely fuck you guys” with it. that moment is right before he maybe fully appreciates that it’s fully a suicide mission (perhaps there is a world in which he is sent to treat with mance, mance tells him to fuck off, and he is allowed to safely return to the wall but with the wildlings and the night’s watch still at a stand off) but once he knows the full stakes he still makes the choice to go, so what he says stands 

 "I’ll go,“ he said in a clipped, curt voice.

"M'lord,” Janos Slynt reminded him. “You’ll address me-”

“I’ll go, my lord. But you are making a mistake, my lord. You are sending the wrong man, my lord. Just the sight of me is going to anger Mance. My lord would have a better chance of reaching terms if he sent-”

“Terms?” Ser Alliser chuckled.

“Janos Slynt does not make terms with lawless savages, Lord Snow. No, he does not.”

“We’re not sending you to talk with Mance Rayder,” Ser Alliser said. “We’re sending you to kill him.”

so again, jon knows there are really no options BUT to die 

The trap had teeth. … Whether he slew Mance or only tried and failed, the free folk would kill him. Even desertion was impossible, if he’d been so inclined; to Mance he was a proven liar and betrayer.

essentially, the sum total of his options are  

accept the mission, actually attempt to kill mance or succeed at doing it, then get killed himself (dead)

accept the mission as a ruse, betray the night’s watch by trying to defect to save himself, and then either get killed by the wildlings or rejected by them and killed by the night’s watch as a traitor (dead)

reject the mission and freeze to death in an ice cell (dead)

reject the mission and be seen as a turncloak to the night’s watch and executed by janos slynt and alliser thorne (dead)

so it’s interesting because he’s also reflecting on his honor/trying to be good/trying to be seen by others as good — and therefore just trying to pick the most honorable death and face it bravely. and he picks the one that says he was never a turncloak in the first place and that he was always loyal to the night’s watch even while with the wildlings, sort of undoing his original “sin” if you will (the option that best frames him as societally good)

but it’s also interesting because he’s not dumb. and he’s not that proud or self-centered. and he realizes it’s not just his honor on the line, it’s also everybody’s lives, because mance reveals/claims he has the horn and is therefore an actual threat to the wall and also he really is trying to come to terms in order to save the wildlings from the others

but the options for how that might shake out are 

mance tries to come to terms, jon doesn’t bother to bring them back and just does his duty to try to/actually kill mance, leaving all the wildlings to die either fighting the watch or being killed by the others (everybody north of the wall dies, including jon)

mance tries to come to terms, the night’s watch says no, then mance uses the horn to take the wall down to put as much distance as he can between the wildlings and the others but ultimately nobody gets to have the wall between them and the danger (everybody north and south of the wall dies, including jon)

mance and the night’s watch come to terms and the watch lets them pass through to put the wall in between them and the others (yay, everybody lives)

except jon knows that last one isn’t really an option because alliser thorne and janos slynt would never go for it

He could carry the message back to Castle Black and tell them of the horn, but if he left Mance still alive Lord Janos and Ser Alliser would seize on that as proof that he was a turncloak.

he does consider it though!!!! which is super interesting because of what he thinks about in that same “the trap has teeth” quote when qhorin halfhand talked to him about honor. 

The trap had teeth. With Maester Aemon insisting on Jon’s innocence, Lord Janos had not dared to leave him in the ice to die. This was better. “Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe,” Qhorin Halfhand had said in the Frostfangs. He must remember that.

qhorin commanded him to yield to the wildlings and do whatever the wildlings tell him to do so that he can survive to figure out what they’re after and eventually bring word home to the watch. he basically says that in order to best serve the watch jon has to be willing to sacrifice his honor and betray the watch. 

he says “being a man of the night’s watch means you would give up your life for the safety of the realm” but just as importantly “being a man of the night’s watch means you would give up your honor for the safety of the realm too”

if you ask me the only reason jon doesn’t do that is because it wouldn’t work

like he says, janos slynt and alliser thorne would use that excuse to call him a traitor, and if he dies branded as a traitor for not following through on the order he was given, are they really going to consider or even hear out any proposal he brings them with any weight???? no!!! 

so he goes into the whole thing thinking “i am going to die, i just have to pick the best way to die, god it is tiring figuring out what that is.” here’s more of the quote 

A grim day. Jon Snow wrapped gloved hands around the bars and held tight as the wind hammered at the cage once more. When he looked straight down past his feet, the ground was lost in shadow, as if he were being lowered into some bottomless pit. Well, death is a bottomless pit of sorts, he reflected, and when this day’s work is done my name will be shadowed forever.

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that. Robb had become a hero king; if Jon was remembered at all, it would be as a turncloak, an oathbreaker, and a murderer. He was glad that Lord Eddard was not alive to see his shame.

I should have stayed in that cave with Ygritte.

i.e. “remember when there was one moment in which i was able to step out from underneath the constant weight of trying to do the right thing and trying to figure out what the right thing is and i was able to just exist in that moment”

and then when he gets met with the revelation about the horn it is revealed that he actually doesn’t even get to just die on his own terms. if he dies, mance uses the horn to bring down the wall and everybody is screwed. if he wants to try and help the wildlings survive the others he has to keep living and that’s just as hard. he thinks maybe he can try to break the horn and buy himself some time but then the battle interrupts everything  

A thousand thoughts flickered through Jon’s head. If I can destroy the horn, smash it here and now… but before he could begin to think that through, he heard the low moan of some other horn, made faint by the tent’s hide walls.

thankfully the battle actually does buy him some time!!! 

but then he uses that time to try and save someone vulnerable still 

mance has to ride off, but he tells varamyr to stay and protect dalla and keep an eye on jon. varamyr then is incapacitated by his eagle being set on fire, which both means that jon has the opportunity to flee but also that nobody is protecting dalla other than val, who needs to be the midwife. 

“Gods,” Val whispered, “gods, why are they doing this?” 

“Go inside the tent and stay with Dalla. It’s not safe out here.” It wouldn’t be a great deal safer inside, but she didn’t need to hear that. 

 “I need to find the midwife,” Val said. 

 “You’re the midwife. I’ll stay here until Mance comes back.”

he says that no one is fucking with him because the battle is distracting everyone and even the people that look at him don’t dare to bother him with longclaw, but even though that presumably also means nobody would fuck with him if he used that moment to escape, he doesn’t. even when he sees that the battle is done and the wildlings are over powered, he stays with dalla  

Wildlings streamed past, women and children running from the battle, some with men hurrying them along. A few of them gave Jon dark looks but Longclaw was in his hand, and no one troubled him. 

…

It’s done, Jon thought, they’re breaking. 

…

When the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!”

Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.

interestingly enough, though, the choice that he makes in the heat of that moment (to protect dalla while she’s in labor and then her baby) is what ends up protecting him and saving his life later on

we don’t see it from jon’s perspective, though, we see it from sam’s

Jon had done more than well himself, to hear Grenn tell it. Yet even capturing the Horn of Winter and a wildling prince had not been enough for Ser Alliser Thorne and his friends, who still named him turncloak. Though Maester Aemon said his wound was healing well, Jon bore other scars, deeper than the ones around his eye. He grieves for his wildling girl, and for his brothers.

even so jon denies that he did it strategically and basically says he only did it because it was the right thing to do even if it was maybe the stupid thing to do 

“Marsh has removed me from duty, for fear that I’m still a turncloak.”

“It’s only a few who believe that,” Sam assured [Jon]. “Ser Alliser and his friends. Most of the brothers know better. King Stannis knows as well, I’ll wager. You brought him the Horn of Winter and captured Mance Rayder’s son.” 

“All I did was protect Val and the babe against looters when the wildlings fled, and keep them there until the rangers found us. I never captured anyone. King Stannis keeps his men well in hand, that’s plain. He lets them plunder some, but I’ve only heard of three wildling women being raped, and the men who did it have all been gelded. I suppose I should have been killing the free folk as they ran. Ser Alliser has been putting it about that the only time I bared my sword was to defend our foes. I failed to kill Mance Rayder because I was in league with him, he says.”

idk this got very long and out of hand but i just think jon is a very good boy 

and at every opportunity he is pretty much mostly trying to do what he thinks is the right thing to do even if it comes at his own expense, whether that’s sacrificing his life or his honor 

to me the “i wish i stayed in the cave with ygritte” is just him wishing for a moment that things could be easy and good, but we know that he’ll choose the right path even when it’s hard pretty much every time because he continues to do just that at every opportunity in the grand scheme but also he is only human 

sometimes a guy just needs to decompress and have a fuckathon in a cave, you know????????????

i think in that moment that specific “god i wish i could relax” thought is about the cave because the cave with ygritte specifically focused on opting out of choosing between the wildlings and the watch and being sent to talk to mance means he’s once again in a position to choose between the wildlings and the watch, so those moments are thematically super linked 

but like op says, jon never mentions the cave again, and when he thinks of ygritte he mainly just thinks “you know nothing jon snow,” again showing how he is really struggling to always make the right choice and figure out what that is but feeling like it is hard and he doesn’t know what to do and he’s questioning himself but doing his best 

i think in the future there’s a good chance we’ll get more “god i wish i could relax” style thoughts that will be focused on other memories because the central conflicts he’s torn between in the moment will be different. if he reunites with sansa and it’s at all similar to how it was in the show, maybe his “i’m tired of fighting” in response to sansa’s “let’s retake winterfell” will be that moment 

“can’t we just sit here and enjoy being reunited and avoid all of our responsibilities (to the north, to the watch, to the free folk, to the fight for survival against the others) instead of immediately having to go to war again”

it will be interesting bc like i said, jon and sansa are super similar, so she very well may also have that feeling of “god it is so tiring trying to calculate what i am meant to do all the time”

[astradrifting]

While Tyland seems to mirror Tyrion, the latter has already experienced all that in the book, hasn't he? Serving the wrong regime, being hated by the people, being badly disfigured etc. But now he's bringing an enemy with dragons to Westeros. Isn't that far beyond Tyland? I keep thinking the Lannister in the service of a rotten regime and for the wrong reasons (Cersei) might be Jamie. He too is disfigured. Is there a parallel for him in DoD?

(referencing this post)

Well, Tyland was sent across the Narrow Sea to Pentos to get sellswords for the Greens but failed, so maybe Tyrion bringing Dany across is meant to be him succeeding where Tyland failed. But you’re right, the foreshadowing events have already happened for Tyrion and it seems repetitive for his story to progress in exactly that way again. The show seemed to indicate that this was his endgame, but I could see D&D giving him this ‘happy ending’ purely because he’s their favourite, maybe swapping his ending with another character’s to facilitate it. The removal of the Tysha reveal so completely stagnated Tyrion’s character arc, which might be why D&D seemed to have no idea what to do with him post s4 aside from get him sucked into the Dany-cult.

There’s definitely meant to be a link between Ser Criston Cole and Jaime, though more of a mirror reflection than parallels. Cole was known as the Kingmaker, for his crucial role in playing Aegon II and Rhaenyra against each other at the start of the Dance, and was later made Aegon’s Hand. He was once Rhaenyra’s loyal sworn sword, until one of them spurned the other before her wedding to Laenor Velaryon. Either he asked her to run away with him to the Free Cities and she rejected him, or she tried to seduce him (for a second time) in the White Sword Tower and he rejected her. Either way, they clearly had a falling out, after which Rhaenyra turned to Ser Harwin Strong and Cole became a supporter of the Greens and Queen Alicent’s new sworn sword. This is similar to Jaime turning away from Cersei for her infidelity, though he doesn’t go so far as supporting the younger brother that will kill her and keeping her from the throne just yet.

Cole’s death is clearly a reference to the Red Wedding - at the Red Wedding, Robb was hit by three crossbow bolts, before Roose Bolton killed him while saying “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” Criston Cole died at the Butcher’s Ball, a battle in the riverlands near the God’s Eye, killed by three arrows. The man in charge of the archers, and one of the men who killed him, was called Red Robb Rivers. His head was later put upon a spear and marched to another battle. But considering this is already a reversal of Robb’s exact fate in the books, I don’t know if Cole’s death is meant to provide foreshadowing for Jaime’s ending. He seems to be more of Jaime’s foil than a true parallel - Cole appeared to truly hate Rhaenyra in the end and worked to destroy everything she had, but I think Jaime is going to find it harder to give up on Cersei no matter what he says.

Some of Tyland and Tyrion’s parallels could actually apply to Jaime too, in some ways mapping closer to Jaime:

- Tyland was the younger twin of Lord Jason Lannister, as Jaime is Cersei’s younger twin.

- both were tortured and disfigured by the opposite side in war.

- Tyland’s policies benefitted lords, but made him hated by the smallfolk - similarly, Jaime’s slaying of Aerys actually benefitted the nobility, since it was they that Aerys tended to target, but has made him reviled by the smallfolk as the Kingslayer.

- Tyland advised Aegon II to kill his nephew Aegon the Younger instead of just gelding him or sending him to the Wall, because he would always be a threat to his reign. Tyrion has never threatened Bran (yet, at least), but Jaime has already tried to kill him, and later said that he should be killed, ostensibly for mercy but really because Bran was a threat to his and Cersei’s secret.

I’m still more inclined to think that Jaime and Cersei’s endings are linked in some way. But there’s also a lot of possible foreshadowing for Jaime being Hand within the books - @fedonciadale wrote a meta about Jaime possibly becoming Hand before s8. He also spends much of Feast riding around the Riverlands trying to clean up the war, during which he dreams of becoming known as Goldenhand the Just, instead of the Kingslayer. Of course, right now it’s incomprehensible why exactly either Bran or his council of regents would choose to make Jaime his Hand, aside from possibly appeasing supporters of the old Lannister regime, but Tyrion becoming Hand is pretty baffling too. I’d think that either of them would be especially insulting to both Sansa personally and the Martells, but if both the North and Dorne go independent at the end they probably wouldn’t have a say in who becomes Hand in the remaining kingdoms.

I don’t know why it would happen politically, but I could see why it might happen thematically. It might be a bitter, full circle of sorts for Jaime to end up loyally serving a king he’s already wronged.

In Jaime’s last AFFC chapter, he makes plans to eventually return to KL, but not for Cersei. He intends to separate Cersei from Tommen and find him a new small council, considering a slew of lords who could become the new Hand (even Baelish, bizarrely enough), but conspiciously not including himself, even though he’s already planning political manouevres and there have been previous Lord Commanders of the Kingsguard who have served as the Hand e.g. Ser Ryam Redwyne, and Ser Criston Cole during the Dance. He even wants to tell Tommen that he’s his father.

And he had done his own part here at Riverrun without actually ever taking up arms against the Starks or Tullys. Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King's Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer. 

(AFFC, Jaime VII)

He seems to want a second chance, with Tommen after years of not truly acknowledging him as his son, and as a knight of the Kingsguard. The last king he truly served, he ended up stabbing in front of the Iron Throne. Robert barely even counts, because Jaime never had any real loyalty to him. Now he has grand plans to guide Tommen as king that will ultimately be disrupted, first by Lady Stoneheart, then likely by Aegon coming out of the woodwork and taking the crown from either Cersei or Tommen. If Jaime survives to the end of the series, he might end up serving a final king.

Bran and Tommen have often been linked to each other and contrasted throughout the series. They’re the same age, both second sons, and Sansa thinks explicitly that Tommen reminds her of Bran in ACOK. At the very beginning of AGOT, they have a sparring match, in which Bran knocks Tommen down:

There was a shout from the courtyard below. Prince Tommen was rolling in the dust, trying to get up and failing. All the padding made him look like a turtle on its back. Bran was standing over him with upraised wooden sword, ready to whack him again once he regained his feet.

(AGOT, Arya I)

There’s a more oblique link made when the Lannisters are discussing Bran’s fall:

“[...] There is nothing Lord Eddard can do for the boy in any case."

"He could end his torment," Jaime said. "I would, if it were my son. It would be a mercy."

"I advise against putting that suggestion to Lord Eddard, sweet brother," Tyrion said. "He would not take it kindly."

(AGOT, Tyrion I)

In AFFC/ADWD, Jon bitterly remembers the spar between Bran and Tommen:

"At Winterfell, Tommen fought my brother Bran with wooden swords," Jon said, remembering. "He wore so much padding he looked like a stuffed goose. Bran knocked him to the ground." He went to the window and threw the shutters open. The air outside was cold and bracing, though the sky was a dull grey. "Yet Bran's dead, and pudgy pink-faced Tommen is sitting on the Iron Throne, with a crown nestled amongst his golden curls."

(ADWD, Jon II)

Except Bran isn’t dead, and it’s Tommen’s prospects that aren’t looking good. By the end of the series, their positions will likely have reversed entirely from Jon’s statement - Bran will be the boy with a crown in his curly hair, while Tommen might be the one tragically killed in his home.

There would be something bitter and darkly ironic in it, if the boy-king Jaime gets a second chance with isn’t the son he desperately wants to know, but the boy he threw out of a window.