#ship: cersei/jaime/jon

[asoiafdrabbles]

III.50

Jon has forgotten just enough to wish he wasn't haunted by his memories.

Cersei/Jaime/Jon. Dark, post resurrection.

XxXxX

The resentment came in waves.

It was harder, since his death, to feel enough of the kinder emotions to counteract that.

At some point, Jon thought he'd loved his uncle enough that he would have forgiven him, but not now when he could only remember bits and pieces of the man, of his childhood.

In some ways, it was convenient that seemingly the entire realm had been informed of his true parentage. While it destabilized the power he held over the North, and he assumed it had been done to weaken the claim Daenerys Targaryen pushed, it also meant that others came to him instead of making him seek them out himself.

The summons from Cersei Lannister was almost a relief, getting him away from the land that constantly reminded him of what he was missing.

On the back of a dragon, getting from Winterfell to King's Landing didn't take too terribly long, despite the increase in storms across the North. He left before anyone could talk him out of it, packing what few pieces of clothing he had that might be suitable enough for appearing before a Lannister queen (all of it was in his preferred black and the irony of it now being a color of his house was not lost on him).

Those who met him when he landed seemed as unsure of his role as he was: a prisoner, a hostage, a guest?

When he reached Cersei, saw the glint in her eyes as she examined him, he realized it was something more than that.

The possessiveness he expected Ser Jaime to hold for his sister-lover oddly seemed to extend to Jon, instead of working against him. A few half-finished conversations showed his loyalty to Rhaegar, his regret over Jon's siblings, his heartbreak over Rhaella, and he imagined that was the why of it: Jaime Lannister didn't see Jon as some sort of threat or challenge because he looked at Jon and saw the dead he still mourned.

Cersei was much the same, calling him Rhaegar at times when she was deep into her cups. He didn't care, he did not come to her for love, a concept which felt more foreign to him with every day he lived his second life.

The simplicity of her selfishness and arrogance kept him by her side. And the knowledge he was surely working against what both of the fathers he'd had would have wanted.

XxXxX

There's a popular theory that Jon will loss some of his memories when he comes back to life (as we know fire wights do) and also one where he'll be in Ghost and be like more feral stuff when he gets back because he'll spend too much time in that skin. I don't really hold to either of them, but I think darker Jon without memories (and wishing they were all gone instead of wishing for them back) is a fun concept to play with.

[ggreyjoy]

[rhaenyrastark]

ships i like from got and hotd

i am very much a multi-shipper when it comes to the universe GRRM has written, i do have to say however there is one ship that i really dislike and will NEVER read; Jonerys (Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen), i always stop reading when this ship is mentioned in fanfiction and i will unfollow blogs that ship it. i ship people that i think would be good or interesting together (or if i just like both characters and would find them cute together)

got (game of thrones)

Jon Snow/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Ygritte

Samwell Tarly/Gilly

Khal Drogo/Daenerys Targaryen (i know this one is a bit controversial but i found them so cute by the end)

Sansa Stark/Tyrion Lannister

Jorah Mormont/Daenerys Targaryen (more tv show than the books)

Margaery Tyrell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Ellaria Sand (just make Ellaria her season 4 characterisation or book ver because she is so weird in the tv show after s4)

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark/Ellaria Sand (in a triangle type polyamorous relationship, i dislike reading v-shaped relationships)

Bran Stark/Meera Reed

Rickon Stark/Shireen Baratheon

Gendry Waters/Arya Stark

Sandor Clegane/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Arya Stark

Jon Snow/Robb Stark

Myranda/Ramsay Bolton (i love evil people with evil people that enable them to do more evil)

Trystane Martell/Myrcella Baratheon

Tormund Giantsbane/Brienne of Tarth

Talisa Maegyr/Robb Stark (i love Talisa, i thought their love story was such a cute thing from the show)

Arya Stark/Tywin Lannister (give me grown up version of Arya with Tywin, especially if they make the harrenhal scenes canon, *chef's kiss*)

Arya Stark/Jaqen H'ghar

Missandei/Grey Worm

Missandei/Daenerys Targaryen

Jaime Lannister/Cersei Lannister (toxic but they died in each others arms, tv show only)

Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth

Mirri Maz Duur/Revenge (Mirri deserved her revenge even if it inconvenienced Dany a bit)

Catelyn Tully/Ned Stark

Elia Martell/Rhaegar Targaryen/Lyanna Stark (i can only get behind Rhaegar/Lyanna if Elia is there with them and they all survive, otherwise its just shipping 2 people that started a rebellion because they didn't tell anyone what they were doing or a guy who stole and raped a women. Elia basically deserved better)

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Sansa Stark

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Arya Stark

Robb Stark/Roslin Frey

Loras Tyrell/Renly Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon/Davos Seaworth

Sansa Stark/Theon Greyjoy

hotd (house of the dragon)

DAEMON TARGARYEN/RHAENYRA TARGARYEN (i will ship this until the day i die)

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Rhaenyra Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Harwin Strong/Daemon Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

BASICALLY IF YOU COULDN'T TELL FROM THE ABSOLUTE LIST ABOVE I SHIP THE 5 (Rhaenyra, Laena, Daemon, Laenor, Harwin) IN ANY COMBINATION POSSIBLE BUT I CAN'T THINK OF ANY MORE COMBINATIONS RIGHT NOW

Aegon II Targaryen/Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen

Aemond Targaryen/Helaena Targaryen

Baela Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Jacaerys Targaryen/Cregan Stark/Baela Targaryen (again in a triangle not a v)

Baela Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Aegon III Targaryen/Daenaera Velaryon

Aemond Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon (only in very specific circumstances; (1) when Aemond turns to team Black/doesn't fight for team Green, (2) when Rhaenyra is guaranteed to become Queen in the fic or (3) non-canon compliant e.g. no killing Lucerys, etc.)

Alicent Hightower/Criston Cole (they deserve each other, both sexually repressed and doing things for 'duty' sake)

Corlys Velaryon/Rhaenys Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Joffrey Lonmouth

Laenor Velaryon/Qarl Correy

[megkuna]

sorry but shipping canon things is so boring ......

[uluthrek]

au in which robert, the starks and the lannisters play monopoly instead of going hunting and pushing each other‘s kids from towers.

tyrion implements a tax system to make things more interesting and fights cersei over the cat for a solid ten minutes.

around thirty minutes into the game, catelyn realizes that she has free will and stops paying taxes.

arya and sansa haggle over new york avenue, which ends up being bought by theon. this causes the two to completely cast aside their differences, ally and subsequently start doing everything in their power to make theon‘s life hell.

theon himself is quite severely stoned the entire time throughout.

ned enters horrendous debt pretty much immediately and, after two hours of being financially sucked dry by both cersei and his tax evader of a wife, decides to just place his figurine in jail and never leave.

jon, playing the dog, controls the railroads and makes jaime, playing the ship, go completely broke within minutes. being beaten by a bastard and officially the first to lose the game makes jaime so mad he spends the rest of the evening perched on the family‘s ancestral armchair eating flaming hot cheetos and stifling sobs.

cersei is holding onto her last two dollars and her one house in atlantic avenue like a maniac and evades taxes like it‘s an olympic sport. she claims ownership of kentucky avenue on the grounds that red is her house‘s color at least twice. after three hours, she‘s consumed enough vintage red to kill a large mammal and keeps quoting the art of war. fascinatingly enough, she never goes completely broke.

robert, just as broke and drunk as his wife but not nearly as ferocious, proposes marriage for tax advantages to bran, who is in possession of the boardwalk and lets him dangle on his proposition for two rounds before accepting and feeling like a benevolent god.

sansa sees this and immediately proposes to arya, who accepts, only for them to be sued by their mother for public indecency („you‘re siblings, jesus christ!“). arya argues that this is just a game and that one could argue that robert‘s and bran‘s marital alliance is just as if not even more inappropriate, considering that bran is seven and robert thirtyseven. sansa countersues her mother for tax evasion, who promises she‘ll drop her lawsuit if her daughters let her keep hoarding perverse amounts of wealth. „love wins!“ arya says, which causes jaime, still perched on the armchair but now eating old nan‘s home made whiskey truffles, to hysterically sob. cersei stares him down.

robb, in a rare moment of almost prophetic foresight, excuses himself one hour in and goes on a very, VERY long walk with grey wind.

tyrion, whose tax system has spectacularly backfired in his face, proposes marriage to catelyn, jon and cersei in rapid succession, who all turn him down. „i wish i was the monster you think i am. i wish i had enough poison for the whole pack of you. i would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it.“ he screams before he leaves the table.

at that, joffrey, who has refused to participate and instead sits on the couch playing doom on his nintendo ds, starts hysterically laughing. tyrion turns on his heel and awards his nephew with the bitchslap of the century. this causes cersei to completely abandon the game and chase after him with a broom. catelyn makes sure that everyone is distracted by the lannister antics and then reaches across the table and bags cersei‘s money and properties.

with a heavy heart, myrcella trades arya and sansa one of her limited edition bayala schleich unicorns for park place.

at this point, the game is between the tycoons that are catelyn and jon, the bran-robert alliance, the arya-sansa-alliance, and ned, who is still in jail and watching ice hockey on his phone under the table. that is when catelyn hears rickon gagging and discovers that he, in the absence of tyrion, the self declared bank manager, has managed to eat all bank notes from the box.

rickon gets his stomach pumped, cersei and tyrion have both been arrested, theon is still stoned, arya, sansa and myrcella have wandered off to go play schleich horses, and jon remains at the table, alone, content, and quietly considering himself the winner.

[sad-drake-lyrics]

what my 65yo father has to say about antis:

let me preface this by saying, i literally wish i had what just happened on video to go viral on TikTok. i was shook by this conversation down to my bones; and if you could see my father - a loud old Italian man with dramatic hand gestures - say what he had to say, i think this shit would blow up. but as i was obviously not filming him while we were eating, i will have to relay to you the story with my words.

so i'm sitting eating dinner at the coffee table with my father while watching TV, as Americans often do instead of eating at the dinner table, and since the news was on he started telling me this story that had been recently mentioned on TV once again from maybe ten years ago (it was in 2014, you can read about it here) where these two 12-year-old girls killed one of their friends as a sacrifice to the Slender Man. yeah, real thing. fucked up.

and so my father told me about how they interviewed one of the killer's mothers, and when questioned about where her daughter's motive could've come from, she said something along the lines of: you know, when i was a kid, i was into Stephen King and horror - and so when my kid was into that kind of stuff, i didn’t think it was a big deal.

so, of course, my response was "yeah, being into that stuff isn’t a big deal at all - it's normal - but being a sociopath and murdering someone is not normal; it's fucked up. but there's nothing wrong with being into horror stories - they're just stories meant to entertain - it doesn't make you a murderer to enjoy Halloween - but it would if you put on a Michael Myers mask and went out and stabbed people." and, of course, like any sane person, my father agreed with me.

then, continuing this line of conversation, i started talking about the concept of how "fiction isn’t reality," and how a frightening amount of people don't understand that; and i literally started telling him about antis - people on the internet who attack and harass others over "problematic" or "inappropriate" fictional interests.

i used well-known pop culture examples like: if you're into Game of Thrones and like Jaime and Cersei together or wanted Jon and Daenerys to end up together (i didn't think he would process the term "shipping," but clearly by the end of this conversation i think i was wrong), that people (antis) will say things like "you should die," and that you "support inc*st in real life," and that "you're disgusting."

i also used the examples of "toxic relationships" in pop culture, like the Joker and Harley Quinn, or Kylo Ren and Rey, and how if you’re into those kinds of fictional relationships that people (antis) will say that you "support toxic relationships," and that you are "glorifying abuse," and that it all "must be what you really want and believe is right or good."

and my fucking 65-year-old father literally goes: "I don’t understand. It’s a TV show. Don't they know it’s fake?"

queue my jaw dropping to the fucking ground because i'm like. YES. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRO-SHIPPERS ARE TRYING TO SAY AND THESE PEOPLE DON'T GET IT.

he was flabbergasted, my pals. the shock in his eyes was incredible to behold.

and, oh boy, that isn't even the best part, guys.

my father then says, "Don’t tell me it’s like that with anime too?"

and i said, "it's worse with anime."

and i fucking swear to you - no joke, on my life and baby Jesus' cradle - again my 65-year-old father looks at me and says, “It’s a fucken cartoon."

... ... ...

... i can't ...

i can't end this post better than that.

[jedimaesteryoda]

You often miss how similar Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish are in some respects.

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." -AGOT, Catelyn IV Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." -ACOK, Daenerys I

They pursued beautiful highborn women far above their station who, and both being southron women who married northern lords. Petyr pined for Catelyn Tully, and fought a duel for her hand against her betrothed, Brandon Stark. Jorah won a tourney with the favor of Lynesse Hightower, he crowned her queen of love and beauty and managed to marry her when he asked for her hand.

Their stories have a romantic element to them with Petyr dueling for Cat's hand and Jorah winning a tourney with Lynesse's favor, but they end up being subverted with neither getting a happy ending. Petyr loses the duel and is nearly killed, and then SAed by Lysa and sent from Riverrun. Jorah's marriage didn't work out, exhausting his family's coffers to provide her the luxuries she was used to and after selling poachers to slavers, which forced him into exile. Catelyn ended up marrying Ned Stark and Lynesse ended up leaving Jorah to be a merchant-prince's concubine.

After that, they found themselves in service to women with Lysa Arryn having Jon Arryn raisie up Petyr and him later serving Queen Cersei while Jorah ending up serving Daenerys in exile. They also end up betraying the people they serve with Littlefinger having a hand in the War of Five Kings and being behind Joffrey's murder, killing Lysa and Jorah spying on Daenerys.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." -AGOT, Daenerys VII "I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me." -ADWD, Theon

Another thing they have in common is their attitude towards children and sex slavery. Petyr took the orphaned Jeyne Poole, forced her into sexual slavery at one of his brothels as shown by the whippings she endured for refusing and mentioning "she was trained." He then sent her to Ramsay Bolton of all people, likely not being ignorant of the things he had heard about him. Jorah had no qualms selling kids into sex slavery en masse, and when Dany tells him to stop Eroeh from being raped, he initially pushes back saying the Dothraki are claiming "their reward."

"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." "Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age." -ASOS, Sansa VII "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?" Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." -ACOK, Daenerys I

It fits their creepy attitude towards the opposite gender with their fixation on young girls after the loss of their previous interests of affection. Petyr fixates on Cat's daughter Sansa Stark who does bear a noted resemblance to her mother while Jorah fixates on Daenerys who he admits looks like his ex-wife.

For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." . . . "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." -ASOS, Sansa VII It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. "You . . . you should not have . . ." "I should not have waited so long," he finished for her. "I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well." His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen." -ASOS, Daenerys I

Their treatment towards these girls can be described as possessive and abusive. While posing to their girls as their protectors, they basically use it to enforce control over them. They force kisses on the girls, and when the girls make it clear they don't want them, simply dismiss them and continue to push. Petyr keeps Sansa in his custody under a false identity, effectively making him her guardian and keeping her completely dependent on him. Jorah tries to isolate Dany from other men in her life from Xaro to Barristan and Daario.

The main difference in Petyr is very vindictive, and works on the downfall of houses Stark and Tully over Cat's rejection and marriage while Jorah stays loyal to Daenerys and tries to seek her favor again. Neither man really takes accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Their fixations will ultimately prove to be their downfalls. Petyr underestimates the danger Sansa potentially poses to him as she is learning from him. Jorah in a desperate act, kidnaps Tyrion, and tries to go to Meereen to regain favor with Daenerys. He likely won't like the Ironborn suitor Victarion, and his actions will likely get himself killed.

[dalekofchaos]

If Ned Stark became King

Hypothetically speaking. Let's say Robert and Rhaegar killed each other in the Battle of The Trident and Ned had no choice but to take the Iron Throne because The Rebellion expected it of him. Here is how I could see things going.

Tywin lannister would have been sentenced to death do to his part in the deaths of Ella Martell, Rhaenys and baby Aegon.

Jamie has three options. He killed the King he was sworn to protect which should mean either a death sentence or a sentence to the wall. If he could convenience Ned that he did the right and honorable thing by keeping the city from being burned maybe he could have lived and be Lord of Casterly Rock.

If Jamie died, Tyrion would have become Lord of Casterly Rock.

He would send for Queen Rhaella and Viserys and baby Daenerys in peace promising safety. Rhaella would have been allowed to live and raise Daenerys possibly in the capital or on Dragon Stone. Viserys would have been sent to the Eryie as a ward of Lord Jon Arryn. ( Ned had fond memories of being warded there, a good place for a confused young child).

Now for Jon, this is my belief of what would have happened. Jon would have been named Prince and heir and betrothed to Ned's first born daughter, in this case Sansa. This would unite both the rebellion and House Targaryen uniting the kingdom again.

Stannis would have been given temporary lordship over Dragonstone, holding it for Viserys. And would still be Lord of Storms End.

The Martells would be happy because they would have been given the Mountain and Tywin would've been executed for his crimes. I could see Ned also fostering Jon there. By all rights Jon is sort of related to the Martells. Its unknown if Ella knew that Rhaegar was going to remarry or not, if she knew and told her family I could see them opening their arms to Jon.

Now for Winterfell, with Ned at Kings Landing, Benjen would be the stark in the north. Its unknown why Benjen joined the Nights watch, I think he just plain wanted to. Ned would ask Benjen to hold Winterfell for a time before he joins, till either Robb is ready to take over, or Ned leaves the thrown for Jon.

Since the Eddard-Catelyn marriage had already been arranged it would not change. Marriages would be vastly different however.

Eddard and Cats marriage ensures an alliance between the Tullys and Starks.

Robb would then be promised to Margaery Tyrell when they both came of age thereby ensuring an alliance between the Tyrells and Starks.

Jaime Lannister and Lysa Tully would be betrothed thereby ensuring an alliance with The Westerlands and the Riverlands and, by extension, the Crown.

Because Jon Arryn had no heirs and was getting older he would be wed as well but since he was already Lord Paramount of the Vale his bride would be from a lesser vassal house from the Reach.

Prince Oberyn would be wed to Cersei hereby ensuring an alliance with Dorne and the Westerlands.

Arya Stark and Quentyn Martell

Arianne Martell and Theon Greyjoy

Viserys and Shireen

Daenerys and Willas

Varys and Baelish would be summarily dismissed from their services in the capital. They would be given holdfasts somewhere far away and forever be barred from the capital or from raising armies.

Grand Maester Pycelle would be sent to the Citadel for reassignment elsewhere. An election for a new Grand Maester would take place then (as is the Citadels way).

Small Council members:

Hand of the King: Jon Arryn

Grand Maester: Marwyn

Master of Coin: Olenna Tyrell

Master of Ships: Balon Greyjoy (bring him into the fold)

Lord Commander of the King’s Guard: Barristan Selmy

Master of Whispers: Prince Doran of Dorne (Bringing Dorne into the Fold as well)

Master of Laws: Brynden Tully

Lord Commander of the City Watch: Mace Tyrell

One of Ned’s first and continuing acts would be to repair the damage, both physical and emotional from Robert’s Rebellion and to repair the relations and trust between the common people and the Crown.

All soldiers that fought against Robert and Eddard during the campaign would be forgiven and pardoned and allowed to return to their homes without consequence. Their leaders, depending on their level of loyalty, would be offered a chance to swear fealty to the Starks. Any that refused would be sent to the Wall and their lands, estates, and positions would be given to loyal nobles.

Ned understood that the job of a noble is to help the people (he considers them his children), and he would immediately order all noble houses of a certain wealth to pay a one-time reparation tax to lift the poor out of poverty and to secure a positive working relationship with them.

Because so many noble houses have been killed off and there is a lack of trueborn individuals left in the kingdom tournaments would be held throughout the kingdom that would be open to the common man, the winners of which would receive a large reward of coin, be allowed to squire with the guarantee of knighthood, and a holdfast. These new nobles would be extremely loyal to the house that allowed them knighthood as well as the crown that elevated their status. These tournaments would also serve to lift the spirits of the common people.

If Ned took the throne the world would be a lot different and ultimately the story would be considerably more boring because the “game” would never happen.

[g0lightly]

i saw a screenshot reposted on twitter of a j0nsa explaining how to find j0nsa “foreshadowing” and genuinely at first i thought it was a parody of how some j0nsas post on here because it was so …💀

i’m not sharing the screenshot here bc no one deserves harassment or to feel bullied for what they ship. however, seeing that post helped crystallize a long-held observation of mine about a ship that i do not like yet cannot fully avoid due to the fact that it is one of the biggest in the fandom and it involves one of my favorite characters. no hate no shade to my j0nsa mutuals, my filters and i love you for tagging your posts (and also for not posting weird murder fantasies about dany!).

because j0nsa is so popular, it can set the tone for discussions about sansa on here. often times that tone comes across … god how do i say this nicely … weirdly gender essentialist. this is an observation that i’ve struggled to articulate for a while but the post in question inadvertently helped me put my finger on the reason why i am so put off by these theories (and the ship in general if i’m honest).

basically, the post claims that there is a pattern of opposite-sex characters around jon and sansa that have the traits of the other. jon and sansa are both kind of the traditional fantasy hero/heroine ideals so like … of course sansa is going to encounter men who are conventionally masculine in the same way that jon is and of course jon is going to encounter women who are conventionally feminine in the way that sansa is. and of course they'll meet people who aren't that feminine/masculine ideal. the post also says that it can still be j0nsa foreshadowing if the person in question had “opposite” traits from jon or sansa — apparently jon thinking about arya means he’s actually thinking about sansa? uh… i think you just made up circular logic so that you can claim every woman jon interacts with or thinks about is a sansa stand in and vis-versa!

in the actual text, meanwhile, jon finds himself drawn to warrior women like ygritte. in a way, sansa is too – she seems to have a fascination with mya stone. an actual parallel between jon and sansa is the fact that they each have a fascination with a dark-haired androgynous bastard of their same sex that they call pretty in their respective remote snowy locations (satin and mya). they also both remark on the beauty of the lannister twins — only, jon remarks on jaime’s beauty and sansa remarks on cersei’s beauty.

now, these examples are some of the reasons why i personally read jon and sansa as characters who are likely queer in some capacity. frankly a lot of sansa’s thoughts remind me of myself as a closeted preteen. because i read both characters as not straight, however, i find it especially restrictive when the conversation around these characters is reduced to how well they fit their masculine/feminine ideals and why that means they must be soulmates. it doesn't give them room to defy the gender ideals that define them in some fans' minds. in a series about subverting conventional tropes in fantasy, i just don’t believe that the feminine ideal girl and the masculine ideal boy are going to ride off into the sunset together.

yet, you could use the same passages from the text to say that jon and sansa’s admiration of cersei and jaime means that they’ll also do sibling incest (i don’t care that they’re cousins by blood, they were raised as siblings). jon comments on the fact that jaime looks the way a king should and sansa looks up to cersei because she wants to be queen one day – again, you could also use this to argue jon will be king and sansa will be queen. i mean, i would disagree with you, but it still makes a hell of a lot more sense than reducing every woman jon interacts with into a sansa stand-in and reducing every man sansa interacts with to a jon stand-in.

[ashedrose]

me? a ship whore?! well ––

margaery x robb margaery x sansa margaery x tyrion margaery x gendry margaery x jon margaery x aegon ii margaery x aemond margaery x daemon margaery x tywin margaery x jaime margaery x cersei margaery x tommen margaery x dany margaery x oberyn margaery x sandor (only w @scndor if our plot ever gets there shhh) margaery x jace tbh margaery x harwin bc i ship myself w harwin so margaery x corlys byeeeeeeeeeeee margaery x addam idk shit about him but he's beautiful margaery x laena margaery x theon margaery x rhaenyra oop margaery x me

the best part is that i'm certain i'm missing people i'd ship her with

[i-am-traveling-the-multifandom]

The fact that people can ship:

Daemon and Rhaenyra, Lucerys and Aemond, Daeron and Joffery, Jon and Daenerys, Aegon and Aemond, Aegon and Heleana.

And than say ewwwww!! Gross when they see

Cersei and Jaime

Just never ceases to amaze and amuse me.

(I don't ship them. But give them respect. LOL)

[hello-nichya-here]

One of the reasons I like Jonrya as a ship is because I think Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be the only look-alike sibling incest to exist, plus if Jonrya is canon then Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality. Plus, the ancient Stark ancestors did a lot of rape and plunder just like a lot of other noble houses so Jon and Arya's sibling incest would be pretty tame in comparison.

"Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality" 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

The simple fact is that, while it seems Martin has given up on making them canon/endgame, Jonrya is still very present in the story through subtext.

Like, Jon sees his girlfriend undress so they can have sex and he immediately thinks of her simmilarities to Arya, and the sex scene ends with her asking him full on if he'd ever sex with his own sister.

He didn't break his vows for Ned, Rob or Ygritte - yet as soon as he heard about "Arya" being married to Ramsay, that boy snapped. It wasn't even that he wanted to leave the Nightswatch - he wanted everyone to storm Winterfell with him. He became obsessed with Ramsay's line of "I want my bride back." When Melisandre is trying to talk about the matter with him, he just thinks "What do you know of my heart, what do you know of my sister?"

Arya is sure nobody else in the family will want or even recognize her - except Jon. She gives up on everything that represents her Stark identity - except for the sword Jon gave her, and even says she can't get rid of it because "Needle is Jon's smile."

They're each other's favorite person in the whole world. It just makes sense.

[goodqueenaly]

Not sure if you are the right person to ask this but what is the deal with Gerion's trip to Valyria? Because according to Fire and Blood, after Aerea died Jaehaerys forbid anyone from Westeros from ever going there and ordered than any ship suspected of having been there should be turned away from ports.

Did somebody later overturned that order so it was again legal to go there, did Gerion think it wouldn't apply to him because he's a Lannister or did Tywin find a neat way to get rid of problematic brother without dirtying his hands personally?

I think the No-Prize Answer is that even if this law was still on the books, so to speak, and remembered by anyone (except, say, the platinum-link maesters of the Citadel) by 291 AC, Robert Baratheon was probably not particularly inclined either to recall this bit of history or enforce it as king, especially when it came to his uncle by marriage. Robert was by no means stupid, but his areas of expertise were never highly scholastic, and so a decree issued nearly two and a half centuries prior may not have even registered in Robert’s mind as an important point in his education. Moreover, as king - especially a king almost a decade into his reign by 291 AC - Robert displayed little interest in his role as supreme judicial authority in the realm, calling laws a “tedious business” and bemoaning the work of “listen[ing] to them [i.e. his subjects] complain until my mind is numb and my ass is raw”. It is possible, if not indeed probable, that Robert was too busy hunting, hawking, and/or pursuing a fleeting extramarital affair to even bat an eye at the idea of one of his subjects sailing to the ruins of Valyria, much less whether such a voyage would be legally forbidden.

Too, even if Robert had thought to bring up Jaehaerys I’s decree, he may have refrained from doing so in deference to his Lannister in-laws. It is no secret, certainly by the time of AGOT, that Robert had allowed Lannister influence to flourish at court, to the exclusion of virtually any other aristocratic faction: his acceptance of Tyrek and Lancel Lannister as his squires, his acceptance of Jaime as the Warden of the East following the death of Jon Arryn, his concession to Cersei over Lady at Darry. While Gerion Lannister left Westeros some seven years before the start of the main novels, I could very much believe that Robert had already begun to allow this Lannister domination at court: after all, he had seemingly raised no objection to his (ostensible) firstborn son being given an explicitly Lannister( and to that point, historically pointed) name, nor to his daughter being given a very Lannister-like name (and in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cersei named Tommen after Uncle Gerion himself and his voyage, a nod to the Lannister glory once lost by King Tommen which this favorite uncle hoped to reclaim). I don’t tend to think Tywin engineered Gerion’s voyage - an audaciously confident far-reaching quest to reclaim the symbol of Lannister regal power, undertaken by this most reckless of Tytos Lannister’s sons, doesn’t seem too far off from some of the actions of, say, Jaime or Tyrion - but I do think that if some or all of the Lannisters supported Gerion in this voyage (and funded him going on it), Robert may not have been personally inclined to fight his queen and/or the Lannister faction about it.

Of course, the practical answer is that GRRM introduced the idea of Gerion Lannister sailing to Valyria, (almost certainly) never to return, many years before he described Jaehaerys I forbidding Westerosi from sailing to Valyria. Just as Fire and Blood Volume 1 described the infrastructure improvements in the capital instituted by Jaehaerys I without acknowledging what happened to King’s Landing thereafter to make it the stinking cesspit of the main novels, for example, and alluded to hatchlings and young drakes extant during the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I without ever explaining why there were no more adult dragons than those we already knew going into that book, so F&B gave us this decree without attempting to reconcile it with the current attitude of the Westerosi legal system toward voyages to the Smoking Sea. It’s entirely possible we get an answer to this apparent contradiction in a future novel, and/or in Fire and Blood Volume 2, but for now it simply remains an apparent unanswered question.

[catofoldstones]

what do you think fandom wise would happen if j0nsa was heavily hinted at in winds? most BNFs would have the biggest aneurysm lol

Well, it will definitely divide the fandom even more. As for the BNFs they will react the same way they did when the affc outline was released and the “resolve to be sansa stark” and “take north” excerpts came to light: by writing lengthy essays about how it’s something else entirely. Or maybe go full ostrich syndrome and duck their heads into the sand, and deny everything; claim that jonsas are delusional and we’re only seeing things we want to see. They might even go one step further and argue that Jon has lost his character and the Jon they know would never do anything like this, which is fairly common for fandoms in general to do.

As for jonsas, there might be schisms in this fandom too. I know and love mutuals who wish for Jon & Sansa to fall in love while they think siblings and get married to save the north and unmuddle the claim to the north, but I personally feel like the story is moving towards Sansa gaining more agency and independence in her life, so I would like for her to choose who she wants to marry, and it has to be someone who wants her despite her claim to the north. So them marrying out of obligation will never work for me, and people like me. But, a win is a win ;)

I think jonsa neutrals will continue to be just that and analyse the book from a non-ship perspective, which they still do.

Would love to see the tiktok “who is jeyne poole” and “cersei jaime incest explained” and “did you know in the books…” plebeians have a collective meltdown because they usually seem to have the strongest opinions on the books without ever having read them. I’ll have popcorn ready lol.

HOWEVER, the hints will only worsen the fandom wars we have going on. Every single anti opinion will trigger us and every single meta post by us will trigger the antis launching into an all out nuclear attack from both sides which will result in both new jonsas and new jonsa antis, twitter blowing up our posts, and a frustrated and unfruitful yearn for ados on all ends. The world side-eyes us and moves on, we don’t.

But, for that George has to release twow first, which rn feels both inevitable yet impossible.

TLDR: fandom remains fandom, we fight over the book like surviving factions over a fresh deer carcass after a zombie apocalypse, no one moves on.