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lassieposting · 5 years ago

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4 Times Lucifer Showed He Cared The Demon Way (And Thought Chloe Reciprocated) +1 Time He Tried Showing It The Human Way

AIT BUCKLE UP YALL BC IMMA GET ON SOME BULLSHIT

prepare for a mess of a headcanon post in which i extrapolate wildly from single lines in the show, read way too much into interactions, and get very emotional

actual post under the cut because this is long as fuck, yo

1. Sharing Territory

Trust is the rarest commodity in Hell. Demons are aggressive, suspicious and territorial by nature, and taught from birth that you’re just as likely to be killed in a fight with someone from your own clan as you are to be cut down in a war with someone else’s. Maze recalls her siblings torturing one another, possibly for fun, and even among family there seems to be a certain level of wariness. Finding someone you can trust to share your space, someone who will keep watch while you rest, someone you don’t have to be so guarded around, is rare and precious and a big expression of real affection.

In 1x02 Lucifer lets himself into Chloe’s home while she’s in the shower, makes himself at home, and starts making her breakfast.

Now, Lucifer knows how door etiquette works. We’ve seen him learn about this, more than once.

In 1x03, he barges into Linda’s office, interrupting another patient’s session, but in 1x08 he knocks on her door and waits for her to call him in.

In 1x07 we see him ring Carmen’s doorbell and wait for him to answer, despite having a far better reason to barge in and wreak havoc (reclaiming his stolen wings).

In 2x01, again, he knocks on the killer’s door and waits for her to answer it.

So, this isn’t a case of “he’s not human, he doesn’t understand”. He only does this with Chloe. And it’s something he does repeatedly, even after he’s learned his lesson about knocking with everyone else - coming into her territory and leaving her, her family and all her things unharmed, showing her that he’s relaxed and comfortable in her space. And he gets the reaction he wants! She’s alarmed the first time she finds him in her kitchen, but as time goes by she gets used to it, accepts it as just one of his weird quirks, and no longer really bats an eyelid. By 3x05 she’s not even surprised to see him; she still ticks him off - “I said to meet me here, not barge in like you own the place.” - but it’s almost like she’s just saying it out of habit at this point. She’s not threatened by him at all.

We don’t know when Lucifer invites her to treat his penthouse the same way, but by the time she shows up drunk and trying to sleep with him in 1x10, he’s told her that “[his] door is always open”, an invitation to do the same. And she does (and has been doing already). Chloe is spectacularly comfortable appropriating Lucifer’s things.

In 1x09 when they’re dueting Heart & Soul she lets herself in unexpectedly and takes a drink from his glass while they’re playing (and here you can see him raise his eyebrows and smile at her, but he doesn’t comment).

In 1x10, she’s clearly intending to stay in his penthouse even after he tells her he was planning on going out, and she helps herself to his alcohol.

In 3x06 she’s comfortable enough with him to raid his closet, take over his home without his knowledge, try to break into his safe and sleep in his bed.

2. Hunting For Your Partner

Humans don't regularly hunt for their own food, but demons do - Maze asks Trixie in S4 at what age human parents teach their children to hunt, presumably because it’s a responsibility she intends to take on for baby Charlie. Now, to survive in a place like Hell, prey animals would need to be in possession of some hardcore natural defences; demons most likely can and do die in hunts. So providing someone with food would be a big deal; it shows how highly you prize that person’s wellbeing, that you’re willing to put yourself at risk and expend valuable effort and energy to keep them fed.

Lucifer tries to make Chloe breakfast in 1x04. This is the first time we really see him do anything domestic, and it’s implied he’s actually pretty handy in the kitchen - possibly because he just likes human food, but also the time and effort he’ll spend making her a proper home-cooked meal is the closest he’s going to get to hunting something the size of a small airplane for her in Hell.

Later, in 2x07, Chloe makes Lucifer and Trixie sandwiches. She goes to give Trixie the first one, because for humans it’s normal to feed your kid first, but Lucifer swipes it off the plate before Trixie can, claiming he’s “far larger and hungrier”, because in Hell the strongest and most vicious eat first (as with many pack predators).

Lucifer later asks Linda what deep meaning the sandwich had - whether it symbolised Chloe’s trust - and seems bewildered that for humans, a sandwich can just be a sandwich. He also brings her homecooked food as an apology after standing her up, all of which seems to imply that Lucifer grew up in a culture where food is valuable and meaningful and an expression of deeper feeling. (This could also be seen to a lesser extent in Maze wanting Lucifer to make her a drink in 2x04, when she’s trying to redefine their relationship as equals rather than lord and vassal.)

3. Fighting Together

Demons do have a concept of loyalty. Maze says “You don’t let your girl go into enemy territory alone”, and it seems to be a principle that’s important enough to her that she’s including it in Trixie’s training - when Maze is going to Canada, Trixie tries to hide in her bag because Maze needs someone to watch her back. Maze and Lucifer are also incredibly loyal to one another in the grand scheme of things - regardless of their issues with one another, they are a united front against outside threats, at least before they both start developing human relationships.

Lucifer is startlingly loyal to Chloe from the get-go, for someone who’s spent billions of years not being able to trust or lean on anyone except Maze.

In 1x02, he stops chasing after Josh as soon as he realises Chloe has been mobbed by paparazzi, choosing instead to go back and defend her - even though this lets Josh, who needs punishing, get away.

Now, in 4x01 Maze says that she (and probably demons in general) fight when they’re “Happy...or horny”, implying that fighting may be as much a bonding activity as a necessity.

With the paparazzi mob, Lucifer goes in all guns blazing, making it personal - “Back off, you mouth-breathing scum!” - because he’s protecting her, trying to deflect their attention from her. But as soon as he notices she’s holding her own, with her fist raised to hit the guy, he gets all excited and encourages her to go ahead: “Let’s punch them all!”

He now sees this as an opportunity to bond with her, show her she can trust him to watch her back, and when she declines to start a fight he’s visibly disappointed.

Chloe then joins the illegal Lux party in 2x09.

Now, she’s spent most of the episode being sensible and rational about the fact that really there’s not a lot she can do, which was understandably upsetting to Lucifer - it’s the first time he’s really seen his detective not be able to fix a situation. He goes to her repeatedly for help throughout the episode - he either hasn’t realised or doesn’t want to accept that the law has her powerless here - and sees it more as “her not being on his side” than “her not actually having any power over this situation”.

Her joining his sit-in reaffirms to him that he matters to her; that she has his back even though she has no personal stake in keeping Lux’s building from being demolished. This is all the more poignant for him because he’s very vulnerable at this point; he’s not just on the verge of losing his home, he’s also dealing with his mom’s manipulation and abuse, his own emerging human emotions, the new distance in his relationship with Maze. He believed he was completely alone in this. Chloe’s public show of support means a lot to him, and he even talks to Linda about how insanely grand a gesture Chloe’s saving Lux is to him - he’s never been given something without strings attached, without having to give something in return.

4. Your Enemies Are My Enemies

Making enemies in Hell can be lethal. Retaliation for a small slight can turn vicious in an eyeblink and generally it's not a good idea to get involved in someone else's grudges if you want to avoid a knife in your back. Adopting someone’s enemies as your own enemies, defending them against said enemies, inserting yourself into their preexisting quarrels as backup, is a big show of loyalty.

Lucifer is always getting in on Chloe’s arguments. Constantly.

From what we’ve seen and heard, Lucifer’s family isn’t big on backup. We’ve only got Lucifer’s word, and he’s very biased, so he’s not the most reliable narrator, but we can see it in the way Mum and Amenadiel behave.

When Lucifer is rowing with his mom in 2x08, Amenadiel doesn’t intervene at all. He’s already said that he’s on his mom’s side at this point, but he doesn’t defend her, either; he avoids the confrontation altogether.

Lucifer says that none of his family defended him when he was thrown out of Heaven, repeatedly, and with increasing bitterness the more he realises that the way his family treated him is a) abnormal and b) abusive.

Early Lucifer seems to have picked up this trait. He doesn’t involve himself in arguments unless he’s getting something out of it; when Maze and Amenadiel are about to throw down in 3x11, he literally sits back to watch with popcorn, despite knowing that this fight could go very badly for Maze.

With Chloe though, he starts jumping in from Actual Day One.

When Dan is gaslighting Chloe in 1x01, he stands up for her immediately: “She is smart. You’re the dimwit.”

Then he punches out Paolucci for calling Chloe a bitch in 1x05. Chloe tells him not to, that she can handle her own problems, and Lucifer not only tells her that she absolutely can but also clarifies to Paolucci before punching him that he’s not sticking up for Chloe. But the message is pretty obvious all the same: if you have a problem with her, I have a problem with you.

Chloe then refuses to call him a liar at Perry Smith’s trial in 2x10.

There is no one - not one single person - in Lucifer’s life who hasn’t betrayed him when it mattered. Even Maze, his oldest friend and closest confidante, goes behind his back in S1 to get them both sent back to Hell against Lucifer’s wishes.

Calling him a liar would benefit Chloe. She has a vested interest in getting her father’s killer convicted. She’s been offered the guy’s own lawyer’s help in getting a guilty verdict, if she humiliates Lucifer.

Anyone else in his life would absolutely take those terms.

But she not only refuses to turn on him, she tells an entire room full of people that he never lies, that he’s the best partner she has ever had, and that a) she knows she can rely on him and b) she wants him to know he can rely on her.

There’s an added layer of meaning in that the person she’s taking on is Charlotte. Chloe doesn’t know that she’s Lucifer’s mom, or what she’s really capable of, but Charlotte herself (without Goddess attached) has a reputation for being ruthless, surrounded by shady people, and an absolute shark in the courtroom. Having Charlotte defending him vastly increases Perry’s chances of getting away with murdering Chloe’s dad. It goes against Chloe’s own interests to defend Lucifer.

But she does anyway.

+1. Spawn Care

This one is...pretty much pure headcanon, but two things are clear from canon:

1. If Maze’s family is typical for demons, their family bonds are neither close nor particularly affectionate, but

2. They do/are meant to have some input in raising their children - Maze talks about teaching young to hunt as a parental/family responsibility.

Lucifer becomes a major adult in Trixie’s life by default thanks to his relationship with Chloe, but despite his intense dislike of children in general, he actually tries really hard to be good at it.

Lucifer doesn’t have a model of good parental behaviour to draw on. Chloe is the first competent, loving parent he’s spent any large amount of time with. What he has is an eternity’s worth of child abuse, gaslighting, manipulation and scapegoating by his own family. But if you look at how he treats Trixie, he puts a lot of effort into not just tolerating Trixie for Chloe’s sake, but being a good influence - or, what he considers a good influence - and a third parent-type figure for her.

In 1x01, he intervenes immediately when he notices Trixie’s distressed by Dan and Chloe arguing in front of her. It comes across as a throwaway comment, but it seamlessly breaks up their hostility by redirecting Dan’s attention and deflecting the shot he takes at Lucifer.

In the same episode, he also takes enough of a liking to Trixie (or Chloe) that he takes it upon himself to scare the bejeezus out of her bully, even though the kid is like 12 and has not done anything as heinous as the shit that normally makes him show suspects his eyes/face.

In 2x02, he spends a large part of the episode arguing on Trixie’s behalf that Chloe should get her the doll, to the point of telling Chloe she’s being a bad parent. Which would be a really petty and honestly irrelevant hill to die on, except that Lucifer’s own upbringing was horrific and he honestly believes she’s somehow damaging Trixie emotionally here. He doesn’t want her to end up with the kind of issues he has. He’s genuinely trying to advocate for her. And when Chloe doesn’t listen to him, he buys the damn doll himself and tells Chloe she can say it’s from her, because he’s very invested in a) Trixie’s wellbeing and b) Chloe’s being a good mother.

In the 2x07 sandwich scene, he actually seems disappointed that Trixie doesn’t challenge him over stealing her sandwich - he even asks Chloe is she always like this, like her generosity is a fault. My personal headcanon is that demon spawn would’ve done exactly that - he’s not exactly family, but he’s close enough that he’s a safe bet to practice one’s intimidation skills on, because he’d never really harm Trixie. He’s trying to teach her something, something he knows she won’t learn from her human parents. Maze contributes to raising Trixie by teaching her to fight (and babysitting) and Lucifer is doing the same, trying to pass on what he considers a useful life skill - something that has probably helped keep him alive in Hell for billions of years. When Trixie leaps off her stool and runs at him, his flinch/hands raised/ “GAH!” reaction looks overdramatic even for him; maybe if she hadn’t given him five and raced off, he might have handed over the sandwich and considered it lesson learned.

And in 2x15, he offers her driving lessons in exchange for her playing along with his trip to the school, which says a lot about how much he really likes her: he intends to teach her himself, and in his own car. The Corvette. His baby. Lucifer does all sorts of shady shit through his favours; finding someone to safely teach an eight year old to drive should be easy!

(Also, honorable mention for him hulking the fuck out when Tiernan’s gunmen threaten Trixie and Eve in his penthouse. Was there any need to shatter his own wall? Probably not. Did he do it anyway? Absolutely. Because children are hideous little creatures but that one is his hideous little creature.)

In conclusion: Lucifer is not remotely subtle about his feelings, Maze feels highkey sick watching them interact Ever, and Chloe’s thing with Pierce throws him so off guard partly because they’ve been in the Hell equivalent of A Relationship for like three years.

#lucifer on netflix #lucifer on fox #deckerstar #stepdevil #lucifer morningstar #chloe decker #this is SO LONG and kinda rambly but i have A LOT of feelings and this fandom is rly nice so #FLINGS THIS INTO THE VOID #also i have Many Thoughts on demon culture and how their society & interpersonal relationships work #anyway lmao #grown ass man? no he babey #lucifer in hell #lucifer headcanons

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sheltereredturtle · 5 years ago

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Supercorp Love Languages

So my friends and I were discussing the 5 Love Languages the other day. I always thought it meant how you show others love, but apparently it’s more how you want others to show You love? and I thought jokingly “Lena’s is most definitely Words of Affirmation,” and then my brain imploded with a theory/examples:

LENA’s primary love language is probably Words of Affirmation, she grew up constantly seeking approval from the Luthors, the world, and even Kara + friends. Despite the confidence she shows, she doubts herself often and needs others to reassure her of the brilliance and kindness we all know she exemplifies. She needs others (friends/mentors) to give her that extra push/encouragement to believe in herself and keep moving forward.

Lena praise-kink Luthor, need I say more XD? (im gonna)

Kara “I’m not going anywhere, I will always be your friend, and I will always protect you” (2x18)

Kara “You are not weak. You are a brilliant, kindhearted, beautiful soul.” (4x19)

She just wants to be loved yall. Rhea to Lena “Never doubt yourself again. You are a Marvel, Lena. And your mother should be proud to call you Daughter.” (literally 5 seconds later she’s betrayed T^T) (2x20)

Lena to Lillian “no, what you taught me was to doubt myself, to look for validation elsewhere. So much so, that I was willing to take it from the first mentor (Rhea) that offered it.” And then Lillian proceeds to apologize and say that Lena is brilliant and could save the world. And then she does. (HER FACE. she just wants to be good) (2x22)

Lillian says I love you with truth seeker and Lena doesn’t know how to react :’( (4x21)

Lena: “I can’t summon a breakthrough through sheer force of will.” Alex: “then how is it that every time I’ve seen you work under pressure you’ve done exactly that.” (4x15 on saving James)

Brainy “but if you want to be trusted and accepted, than you must also trust” then Lena goes to tell Kara the truth about helping Lex (4x19)

Jack “I just miss you” + “I wonder what would’ve happened if I had said ‘there was room, for both me and your family.’ I mean if I had made room. If I could still do that.” then they kiss (2x18)

So many more examples (with Sam, Lex, Eve etc)

And now in S5, WHO is Lena getting that reassurance and love from?!? Lex. -_-

KARA’s love language is mayhaps Receiving Gifts (more specifically, but not limited to, food). I also think this is how she tends to show her love.

Receiving gifts:

Necklace from her mom when she was 13 and escaping Krypton :’( and her cape from Kal, both of which are shown to be incredibly important to her at the time (1x01)

Lead-lined glasses from Jeremiah that she still wears (1x17)

Apology Earth-birthday cupcake from Alex (2x11)

Office full of flowers from Lena (2x12)

Lena buying Catco for Kara (3x01)

Kryptonite shield from Lena (4x18)

New suit from brainy (5x01) “did you forget it?” lol

Helping Kelly pick a present for Alex (Kara was READY) (5x05)

Anytime someone brings food and Kara does a happy dance

Giving gifts:

Dragon sculpture she made for her father (1x13)

Bringing flowers to comfort Lena (2x18)

Gives necklace to Mon-El (2x022)

Planner to Lena, a Danvers family gift giving tradition (3x02)

Anytime Kara brings food to Lena (i.e. 4x02)

Giving a SuperWatch to Lena (5x01)

Kara to Nia “Maybe giving food is Brainy’s language of love” (5x02)

All Lena’s favourite food from around the world (5x03) (look how bashful/happy she is because Lena’s happy)

Giving Lena Lex’s journals (5x03)

I’m sure there are more I’m just forgetting (sorry I didn’t provide picture reference for every single one but I’m sure you get the point)

And in S5, maybe this is why Kara is feeling slightly inclined toward William..!? because of the coffee and grandma-puzzle gift?? (bit of a stretch tho… I dunno, I don’t understand what they’re doing)

I think it’s safe to say Physical Touch and Quality Time is also high up for both Lena and Kara, there are so many examples so I won’t bother listing. Anyways, while Kara has already apologized (beautifully and sincerely) multiple times, Lena isn’t listening because she thinks that all the love that Kara has shown her isn’t real. I think what Lena needs to hear MOST right now is Kara (and all the other superfriends) actually TELLING her that she is still loved and appreciated. And that just because Kara wasn’t completely honest about her identity as supergirl that doesn’t mean she wasn’t honest about all the other things she has said about Lena: that she is a brilliant, kindhearted, beautiful soul T^T. PLEASE. We the audience have seen Kara defend Lena to the others, but Lena hasn’t seen or heard about any of that. sOMEONE TELL HER THEY STILL LOVE HER (not you Lex). (I mean obviously after that, they still have to work hard together to resolve their issues. just been sayin that this is an important step that hasn’t happened yet)

#me trying to make sense of the clusterfluff that s5 has been #I am a professional of nothing these are just my random thoughts #me saying all this as if I have faith in the shows consistency lol #this ended up way longer than I intended #sorry for any off topicness #I definitely spent way too much time on this #Lena still probably thinks Kara was all for aiming that claymore at her :( #also please excuse the not great pictures I don’t know how to find and properly use/credit gifs

#supercorp #I have repetitive thoughts #no new revelations just me processing my thoughts

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ggyppt · 4 years ago

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In my 373rd review I take a look at Kung Fu 1x01 "Pilot"

Spoilers Below

This show has honestly surprised me, taking the incredibly simple yet focused premise, a young woman returning home after three years away, and already making a strong mythology to it that they can span out into a show that could last without a lot of the functional issues that plague productions with as focused premises as this one. This opening episode gives a clear hook, sets up the world, and a lot of characters beautifully, while also telling a full story. In that way, this episode ends up ticks all the boxes that a pilot needs to, though the most impressive element of it ends up being the pacing. Pilots are notoriously difficult to pace because of just how much needs to be crammed in next to the single episode plots the create memorable viewing. This episode, in contrast, flowed by, being a breezy and enjoyable affair, and the consistent forward momentum of the pacing ends up being much of the cause of that.

The action scenes, much in the same way, have a good sense of pacing to them, and each of the many that fill this episode, have their own flavor to them feel unique and distinct. From the opening scene that had great use of close-up camera angles to create of sense of claustrophobia that serves to convey the tension of the scene as whole, being a beautiful example of how camera technique can convey emotion. This scene also works as a presentation of actress Olivia Liang (known for being Alyssa in Legacies and Wendy in Dating After College) who, from what I can tell, was doing her own stunts, as she as of writing this review, does not have a stunt double listed in either the episode credits or online. While that is not a certainty yet, if it is true, that is an impressive feat. Then we have the first fight scene in San Francisco, which is treated both as a presentation of Nicky’s abilities, both to the audience and her family, and as a showcase of the instant connection Henry Yan (played by Eddie Liu), the character they are setting up as her love interest. Finally, we have the climatic fight scene, which acts as a nice bit of catharsis for the episode, tying in the larger plot of the episode into the fight scene in a way that allows for the conveying of emotions, something that some of the best fight scenes ever made do well. While it doesn’t quite live up to that quality, this is at least a showcase of ability for the crew behind this show, meaning that when they get to a climactic fight that has more than 20 ish minutes of build, they could potentially come close to some of the greats. In these fight scenes, we also get this show pulling on the history of the Kung Fu movies of the 70s, between the long takes that allow the action to actually be show off, to the slight bits of wirework in the opening and closing fights. Most of this praise must be levied on Stunt Director and Fight Choreographer Brett Chan (who worked as stunt choreographer for Iron Fist and stunt coordinator for the 2020 Snowpiercer TV show).

Now, as much as the action has shown its chops, which is important in an action show, the characters around the action pulled their weight this episode as well. While a lot of this episode is set up work, establishing these characters and the relationships between them, this episode does that masterfully. In a single scene, they establish the majority of the main cast in such a beautiful way, and the rest of the important characters end up falling into the story without much issue soon after. The dynamics that are on display between these characters work really well as well. Specifically the familial bond between the majority of the characters gets shown off exceptionally well in this episode, illustrating the full gamut of emotions that those familial connections create, especially when they are put under the type of stress that Nicky put her family under. This episode is so deft at establishing the characters that the second half of the episode is basically just used for the singular story of the episode, having already established all that it needed to by that point, which is not something that many pilots can claim to. A special shout out has to go to the character of Jin (played by the always dependable Tzi Ma, who has credits all the way from The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. to Arrival) who is Nicky’s father, and is already coming into contention for one of the best on screen dads in tv. He has such a kind and gentle presence that works so well to calm Nicky and keep her involved in this place she hasn’t been to for so long.

Now, this is not an impeccable cast, with the major weak point being Evan. He is played fine by Gavin Stenhouse (from Allegiance and Iconicles) but the character that he is given to portray is a sadly quite dull character that is only there to create a third point in a love triangle. That though ends up being the main point of fault with Gavin’s performance, as he does not have the needed chemistry with Olivia to make it feel like the relationship has any sparks left in the tank. That makes this love triangle feel rather lopsided, at least out of the gate, and likely to crumple as soon as they put any dramatic pressure onto it.

The other thing of note that I have to talk about with this episode is its tone. There’s this fantastical element to the whole regard that I imagine will be a little silly for some people, but worked well for me. This episode, and specifically the world build that it has created, ends up drawing a good comparisons in my mind to the show Jackie Chan Adventures from my childhood. Both of them play with the mystical sides of the cultures they are pulling from in similar ways that end up giving strong through lines to these shows as a whole. That is a great well to pull from, and ends up creating a very comforting atmosphere from the starting line, which is impressive.

Overall, this is just trying to be comfort food tv, and it does well in that regard, being a breezy 45 minutes of show with a cast of warm and inviting character. Pulling on a strong history of both shows an TV, this seems like a fun and solid presentation of what it’s trying to do, though it does have a singular bad tent poll in its cast that will need to be sorted out if this show is going to ever rise above being just comfort food. 7.5/10

#ggyppt reviews #spoilers #kung fu cw

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laora-inn · 4 years ago

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Supernatural - Of Dean, Cas and Pies

Well, in this post I’ve said that Cas = Dean’s pie and promised to talk about it later.

I’ve seen a lot of meta considering Destiel, cakes and pies. In fiction, food is always kinda connected with sex and craving for it, and also with death. All the cycle, Eros and Tanathos, you know.

So it’s no wonder that there are lots of food in Supernatural and lots of it’s possible interpretations. Maybe, ALL of them are right simultaneously.

The version about Dean’s food personally I like, by @amwritingmeta from here:

Trash Food: the life of the hunter = saving people, hunting things Pie: home and stability (the longing for his mother and his longing for love) Cake: at first being reluctant, but open, to trying new things

I think it’s absolutely correct. That’s why Dean’s hook-up with Anna in 5x10 is characterized by Uriel as “having a piece of angel food cake”. Anna is an angel, it’s certainly new experience for Dean, to hook up with an angel.

The cake could also refer to Dean’s bisexuality, though in my opinion there is a bigger problem here.

‘Cause you know, there will be a great difference in the sharpness of your sexual experience and in aftertaste if it’s not just sex but something more, an emotional connection. And that connection is the scariest part of every possible relationship.

So I don’t see the point in Dean’s sexuality there. The point is whether Dean want to try something new of not, both in his sexual preferences and family life, in his life at all.

From the Supernatural wiki:

There have been occasions when Dean has been tempted by cake:

3.02. The Kids Are Alright: Dean is seen eating birthday cake with a young Ben Braeden at his birthday party.

7.03. The Girl Next Door: While laid up with his broken leg, Dean asks Sam to go on a food run. When Dean asks, “Where’s the pie?” Sam says, “You got cake, that’s close enough, right?” Dean does not eat the piece of cake.

7.06. Slash Fiction: Dean ask Sam to buy him something that “rhymes with songs songs” i.e. Ding Dongs which a small chocolate cake with a creamy center.

10.12. About a Boy: 14-year-old Dean snacks on cake while he is held captive, he didn’t much care for it.

10.15. The Things They Carried: In a police station, there is a birthday cake on the desk. The police officer offers cake to Sam and Dean, but Sam declines on their behalf. Dean looks disappointed, and sneaks a fingerful of icing.

I think all of them, situation with Anna included (textual references can work even better than visual ones, as for me), refer to Dean’s possibilities of new experience.

In 3x02 he had a possibility of a new family with Lisa and Ben, and he tried it. Back then the show was supposed to end with them as Dean’s constant family. So we’ve got a cake and Dean who’s eating it, possibly enjoying.

7x03 is crucial for Destiel shippers. Why? ‘Cause that’s the moment than Dean needed A PIE and got A CAKE from Sam instead. And nope, he didn’t manage to eat it. Why? Because this cake isn’t his pie. In 7x02 Dean lost Cas. And nothing can replace him, more than that, Dean doesn’t want to try anything new, he just can’t even if Sam helps and doesn’t see the difference.

7x06 was Dean’s prompt to try something new - to have a daughter with Lydia. He didn’t make it either.

Also he didn’t like the cake he ate in 10x12 as a teenager, said the cake was too dry. So he didn’t stay a teenager (someone he used to be a long time ago, but being a teenager now is new experience for him, a chance to start a new life, without Mark of Cain on his arm). Dean preferred to stay an adult in this episode - he tried something new and didn’t like it.

In 10x15 Dean tried the cake = something new. I think it’s the moment when they’ve finally said us: okay, guys. In case you still have some doubts, let’s clarify. A new endgame for Dean comes, not with Lisa and Ben for sure.

So whom with? Oh, well. Maybe with an angel whom Dean gave the First Blade, like he’s preferring him to Crowley? An angel whom Cain saw Dean’s parallel to his wife Colette in? Both moments were in episode 10x14, the previous one!

If 10x14 and 10x15 haven’t clarified it to us yet, in 10x16 Dean also says that there are some people and some feelings he wants to try in a different way. Yep, something new. Three times make no coincidence. This “new” is connected to Cas, and here from cakes appearances are rare. ‘Cause Dean’s already in the path of trying something new.

I think that’s the reason why there were no cakes and pies in season 11th. I love this season very much, it’s also supposed to be the last one, and I suggest Destiel endgame was planned here at the end, maybe not in explicit form, but still. We could tell it looking to the story fabric.

And then they’ve just torn it up at the very end and added 4 more seasons, full of Destiel and pies. Why pies, not cakes? Why pies remain and are still relevant to the story?

‘Cause after Destiel “confession”, which wasn’t at the end of 11th season, but was supposed to be there for sure (and that’s the reason why 11x23 looks like kinda awkward to me, especially Destiel talk in the car about friendship and brotherhood, which was a big step back itself), Dean and Cas aren’t subtextually “something new” to each other. They are ALREADY “family”, and not like brothers. They are couple.

It’s no wonder that after this point pie=Cas for Dean. No, not Mary. Mary is a part of equation, but her special dish isn’t a pie, she can’t even cook pies. No, not Sam. Sam can bring a pie for Dean, but that’s Dean who should be confident enough to take it.

But actually even before season 12, since season 7, pie references were connected with Cas mostly.

From season 1 to season 6 they mean rather a family in broader sense. ‘Cause “apple-pie life”, you know. Life with the family, who loves you, not with the toxic people.

More quotes for us from the wiki, seasons 1-3:

The running gag relating to Dean's pie love, is that Dean rarely gets to eat his pie.

1.11. Scarecrow: In Burkittsville Indiana Scotty's Cafe serves apple pie made from the towns apple crop. "We’re famous for our apples. So, you gotta try this pie." he tells a couple who the townsfolk will later try to kill. Dean orders a piece of the pie. Later when Dean is tied up as a sacrifice, he yells the now classic line ""I hope your apple pie is freakin’ worth it!"

2.21. All Hell Breaks Loose: Part One: Dean asks Sam to get him some pie from a diner while he waits in the car. Once inside, Sam is taken by demons and transported to Cold Oak, with the other Special Children.

3.05. Bedtime Stories: When a young couple, Ken and Julie, are lost in the woods, they come across a sweet old lady who invites them inside her house to rest. Ken sees pie cooling on her windowsill and accepts her invitation despite Julie's reservations. Once they've eaten a fair amount of the pie, it is revealed the pie was poisoned, and the old lady kills Ken with a butcher's knife while he lies on the floor unable to fight her off.

3.16. No Rest for the Wicked: When Lilith kills her host's grandfather, he literally falls face first onto a piece of pie.

Here we see that pies are mostly connected to family, death and danger. Because in seasons 1-3 the Winchesters have no chance to a happy family. They are deeply in a toxic relationship with each other (poisoned pie), their father is dead, Sam is doomed, and they can’t be happy. That’s why Dean can’t have his pie here. That’s why he accuses Sam of wanting an "apple-pie life” in 1x01 - Dean doesn’t think he deserves this life himself and mocks on it while craving for it. His greatest fear, as far as we know in season 1, is to be abandoned. To have no family at all, even the toxic one.

So, in the end of season 3 Dean dies because of his deal, which purpose was to save his only family member left. Sam, who is holding Dean’s corpse in the end of 3x16. Yep, dead face in the pie.

Kinda tragic, you know.

Situation in seasons 4-5 looks just a slight better to me. Pies are more likely a symbol of happy family now... except the fact that Dean can hardly get them:

4.01. Lazarus Rising: When Sam and Dean are in a diner following Dean's resurrection, Dean orders pie. Unfortunately, the pie is brought to them by a possessed waitress, and Dean is unable to enjoy it. After their confrontation with the demons in the diner, Dean leaves money to pay for the pie.

4.02. Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester: When faced with a pile of research on angels, Dean demands of Sam, "You're gonna get me some pie!" When Sam returns sans pie (due to encountering Ruby), Dean complains, "Dude, Where's the pie?"

5.15. Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid: Karen Singer finds baking makes life as a zombie easier, and fills Bobby's house with pies. On one of the few occasions Dean gets to eat pie, it's baked by a zombie.

5.16. Dark Side of the Moon: In Heaven, Dean and Sam relive a memory from when Dean was four years old. Mary makes him a sandwich with a glass of milk and then has a brief argument on the phone with John. Dean goes to comfort her, and Mary hugs him and says "You are my little angel. How ‘bout some pie?" This may be a clue to the origin of Dean's love of pie, and his associations between pie and comfort.

5.19. Hammer of the Gods: Mercury tells Dean after checking in that the hotel has "the best pie in the tri-state area." Sam also warns Dean that they should leave the motel while eating at the buffet: “It’s Biblical, exactly. It’s friggin’ Noah’s ark out there and we’re eating pie”.

Situations in 4x01 and 4x02 refer to Sam. He can’t be a pie for Dean, his family anymore, ‘cause he has Ruby now, a demon. Demons interfere between Dean and pie. Well, sorry for them.

Situation in 5x15 refer to Bobby as a part of family whom Dean in this episode wants to save. Also pies here have a straight connection to death, even the Death himself.

Karen also says, that Dean’s never been in love. He knows only familial love... and during this conversation he is eating a pie. Karen makes pies to bring peace=her love to Bobby, and this love is romantic for 100%. And hella tragic.

I don’t think Dean was in love with Cas back then. Cas was his friend and meant a lot to Dean, maybe Dean was attracted to him somehow, hoped for him, even loved him - but, in my opinion, not romantically.

So that time Cas just couldn’t be Dean’s pie.

To tell the truth, I don’t think ANYONE besides Cas could.

From 5x16 we know, that pie for Dean means not just family, but a happy one, a family, where he is unconditionally and absolutely loved. We also know that the pie could be associated with the word “angel”, even if in the context of a season 5 that may sound kinda sarcastic.

Pie from the 5x19, as I suppose, refer to another family. Not the Winchesters, but Lucifer and Gabriel. ‘Cause now, then Sam and Dean are the vessels, they are certainly a part of a BIGGER family (which also includes Cas, btw). But this family is absolutely awful, toxic and bloody.

Let’s see how the textual references to the pies in seasons 4-5 work:

4.22. Lucifer Rising: when it seems like Dean has given up on Sam, Bobby gives him a talking to: “Are you under the impression that family's supposed to make you feel good?! Bake you an apple pie, maybe? They're supposed to make you miserable! That's why they're family!”

5.12. Swap Meat: when Sam is returned to his own body, he confides in Dean that life as a normal kid "sucked ass": “All that apple-pie, family crap? It's stressful. Trust me, we didn't miss a damn thing”.

5.22. Swan Song: when Sam is preparing to say yes to Lucifer, he makes Dean promise that he won't try to get him back from Lucifer's Cage. He wants Dean to find Lisa and try to live a "normal, apple-pie life."

I think that’s what Dean wants from his family - to get an apple pie (unconditional love/appreciation). He can’t get it from them, and that’s the main tragedy in his life for the seasons 1-5. He is too fixated on them and can’t move on.

Lisa and Ben are just a dream of an apple-pie life (love) for Dean. But you know, that’s not how it works. To notice someone’s love and to appreciate it, you should love them back. We've never had enough information about Lisa and Ben to make any conclusions about. And Sam’s words from 5x12 just state that they both, Sam and Dean, currently can’t believe that they deserve a happy family, deserve to be loved (hello Crowley’s allusion).

Season 6 is poor for pies (and love), both textually and visually. That’s the season where Cas goes the dark side, ‘cause Dean doesn’t love him back (doesn’t trust him), so no wonder.

Here some pie moments:

6.04. Weekend at Bobby's: Bobby's neighbor Marcy Ward brings him a ginger peach cobbler. Marcy, after some exposure to Bobby hunting, decides against dating Bobby, who never gets to eat the pie because he keeps getting interrupted.

6.08. All Dogs Go to Heaven: Dean is sick of soulless Sam trying to act normal, and he tells him that he doesn't buy his act: “You say you're "just folks," yeah? That - that you like baseball and apple pie, or whatever. But truth is, I don't know what you are, 'cause you're not Sam”.

6.11. Appointment in Samarra: Death tells Dean "What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken, not even by me."

In Bobby’s case a pie=possible romantic relationship, but Bobby can’t get it.

Dean in 6x08 means that even if soulless Sam says he likes/loves his family (Dean and Bobby), he lies.

The last line I think isn’t connected with this all pie=love narrative. The Death just knows about Dean’s love for pies and says what he needs to say in a simple way. But it’s also about family - Sam’s soul, basically Sam himself.

And it’s season 7 where we have the narrative change! It deals not only with pies, but also with Dean’s feelings to Cas. I think he’s still not in love here. But Dean comes closer to understanding this season. Without this romantic subplot season 7 is just a mess. And you know, this subplot is something what is not easy to notice. That’s why season 7 was something that nearly killed all the show. You should be more open to your fans.

Pies in this season:

7.02. Hello, Cruel World: A TV ad for Biggerson's announces they now have a homemade pie bar - like a salad bar but for pies!

7.03. The Girl Next Door: While laid up with his broken leg, Dean asks Sam to go on a food run. When Dean asks, "Where's the pie?" Sam says, "You got cake, that's close enough, right?" Dean does eat from the piece of cake and passes out on the couch, leaving it unfinished.

7.05. Shut Up, Dr. Phil: Dean is in the motel room, about to eat a cream pie, when Sam comes in and presents him with some chickens feet that they require to combat the witches. They have not been refrigerated due to a power blackout, and Dean is put off his pie.

7.22. There Will Be Blood: Dean is devastated to learn that the modified corn syrup the Leviathan are using to make humans docile and obese is in nearly all his favorite foods, including pie. Dean: "Roman acquires..." What's SucroCorp? Sam: They make food additives, namely high-fructose corn syrup. That crap is in – well, it's in just about everything – um, soda, sauces, bread. Dean: Don't say "pie." Sam: Definitely pie. Dean: Bastards.

Moment from 7x02 can refer to Leviathans that were in Cas. There are MANY of them, they were ruining his core. Connection to the death and danger once again, but this time it refers to Cas. FOR THE FIRST TIME. Why?

Moment from 7x03 had also a cake and was discussed before. The meaning of it that Dean wants Cas back and can’t move on. So, here Cas=Dean’s pie for sure.

7x05 deals with the lovers’ quarrel that ruins the whole town. They are two powerful witches who need to be in peace, then the world will be whole once again. I think that refers to Cas’s and Dean’s quarrel at the end of 6th season, because IT IS basically the reason why Leviathans are here ruining the world. Dean and Cas should have been in peace to prevent it.

Yep, Sam and Dean also have their quarrel about poor Amy, but this quarrel is a result of Dean’s misunderstanding with Cas, of Cas’s death. I feel sorry for Amy so much! She’s a victim of Dean’s personal issues, and that’s very mean of him, to kill Amy, who once was significant to Sam, in a kind of a mirror situation. I lost Cas - you’ll have to loose your monster girlfriend too, and why are you so obsessed with the monsters at all, hey, little brother?

The truth is Sam HAD NEVER such a powerful connection with a supernatural being that Dean had. It’s Dean who was obsessed with a monster, not Sam, and Dean IS still obsessed. So much, that he kills Amy in a prompt to be freed from obsession, to forget Cas’s death and the fact that it’s what is bothering him so much.

So yes, now Dean can’t have his pie. Because Cas is dead, and the world is ruining (chickens feet that they require to combat the witches have not been refrigerated due to a power blackout, CAUSED by these witches‘ love quarrel).

Definitely Sam and Dean have their own issues which can be very destroying but in this episode they haven’t. It’s LOVERS’ quarrel that ruins everything, as in the whole season 7. Once you’ll understand it, season 7 becomes much more interesting. The writers should be clearer with us here, but they weren’t brave enough. Personally I think THAT was the main problem for Sarah, but except this she is a good writer and she did an excellent work for all of us Destiel shippers.

She prepared the scenery for the greatest love story I’ve seen.

Pie conversation between Sam and Dean in 7x22 refers to Cas’s unstable mind. The Leviathans messed up Dean’s pie, and now he and Sam should try to beat them to bring the pie back. Just change the word “pie” here with “Cas” and you’ll see that’s absolutely adequate metaphor given to us by the writers themselves.

Season 8 was a bliss for the shippers. I think Carver is a genius, I love the romantic story he made for Destiel SO MUCH. We see it within all of season he made, from 8 to 11, and it has a strong structure. Seasons 12-15 are more honest with DeanCas details and nuances, I’m absolutely in love with them, but simultaneously Destiel relationship in them is kinda... hidden sometimes, more than it was in seasons 8-11.

In seasons 8-11 we had certain plot circumstances that prevent Dean and Cas from being together. We have no such circumstances in seasons 12-15. So, are Dean and Cas together ALREADY? But why the hell that’s not IN THE TEXT? Or they are not together? But then why do they have couple dynamics?

Carver’s story for Destiel was PURE. The following story is more complex and in some way more painful, despite the fact we have Jack whom I adore. I fully understand writers’ reasons here: they can’t say in the text that Destiel is real till the end of the show, because I believe Destiel was the thing that's preventing show from shutting down all this time. The moment writers’ll recognize Destiel as a real thing for GA (like ”they are couple” in the text from the narrator we can trust) will be the moment that ends the show. OR THAT’S HOW DO THEY THINK.

Personally I think that it’ll be interesting to see TFW future adventures with canon Destiel and Saileen, ‘cause for me there should be some adventures then far and some couples’ problems too. As I said, in seasons 12-15 Dean and Cas act like an arranged couple ALREADY, and it’s still interesting to watch them. Actually the fact that they are NOT couple confirmed by writers yet was one of the main reasons of fans’ annoyance and show shutting down imao. ‘Cause you know, fans don’t like to be played all the time. Sarah made this mistake in season 7 already.

Carver didn’t play us.

So in season 8 we have 4 brilliant pie moments, connected with the all people who could be seen as Dean’s “family“ except Sam, one sure constant in his life. From this season we started to see Sam as Dean’s “child” and to understand it’s bad for both of them, it’s co-dependent relationship.

Notably, Dean fails to get his pie all these 4 times and despite the fact the other important for Dean people are involved, the pie ALWAYS refers to Cas.

Here are these moments:

8.09. Citizen Fang: At the Gumbo Shack, Dean asks Elizabeth for some pie, but she is out of what he wants. "You’re out of pecan? Story of my life," says Dean. Martin Creaser is later seen at the Gumbo Shack eating a piece of pie, before he takes Elizabeth hostage.

8.19. Taxi Driver: Dean brings takeout from Biggerson's for himself and Kevin Tran, including a slice of pie. The paranoid Kevin grabs a tray and retreats to the storeroom. Dean moans "That's my pie!"

8.20. Pac-Man Fever: Charlie Bradbury comments: "I will pick us up some grub, and unlike you Sam, I will not forget the pie" referring to Sam's long history of failing to get Dean his pie as requested, a fact she obviously read in the the Supernatural books. Notably, Charlie also fails to get Dean any pie.

8.22. Clip Show: At the Convenience store, Castiel buys things he knows Dean likes: beef jerky, beer, a copy of Busty Asian Beauties, toilet paper. He tries to buy pie, even going as far as threatening the convenience store clerk, but of course to no avail, continuing the running gag in which Dean never gets his pie.

Now let me explain.

8x09 takes place right after 8x08 where Cas, brainwashed by Naomi, decided to stay away from Dean. No Cas = no pie for Dean. More than that, the one who has the pie here is a villain of this episode and that refers to Naomi. Also, this episode involves Benny who basically is a part of Dean’s “family”, though never spoken and not the same as Cas for sure. Dean trusted Benny only because the vampire defended Cas in Purgatory. It was mentioned in many metas, it’s IN THE TEXT of the story. In case you doubt it, just re-watch 8x01, 8x02 and 8x05. There you can see all Dean’s and Benny’s dynamics.

Yep, Benny saved Dean’s life in 8x01 and helped him later, but the turning point in their relationship which was as far as it possible from the friendship was the moment when Benny saved Cas’s life. Despite of all the things he said about how dangerous is to search for Cas and to walk with him through the Purgatory.

In 8x09 Dean helps Benny as a part of his family, his brother-in-arms and friend, but he still has no pie. Truly story of his life.

The moment with the pie could also refer to Elisabeth. Martin has the pie = he has her as a hostage. Dean’s hint about the pie in their conversation sounds flirty as well, and Benny suspects something about Dean and his great-granddaughter.

But Elisabeth was in this episode only, though the pie metaphors remain. So I suppose that pie moment has more than one interpretation, and the essential to the whole plot one refers to Cas.

8x19 takes place right one episode after 8x17 where Cas, brainwashed by Naomi... guess what? Yep, decided to stay away from Dean. No Cas = no pie for Dean. AGAIN.

This time it’s Kevin who stole the pie, also a part of the family. In season 9 Dean’ll call him a younger brother. Dean helps Kevin, brings him the food, they actually have the help of each other. Still, Dean doesn’t have his pie.

After the next conversation with Kevin in this episode Naomi comes. She says “You're hoping Castiel will return to you. I admire your loyalty. I only wish he felt the same way”. No chances for the pie. Yep.

In 8x20 Charlie mentions the pie to reveal she’s read the books on Supernatural. She also mentions Cas to Dean and to Dean only. I think she understood the pie metaphor :) But also, even if she is a family to Dean and actually says him “I love you”, 100% platonically ‘cause she likes girls only, she fails to give Dean a pie. She isn’t his pie, and Cas - oh, he is still missing after 8x17 and Naomi’s words. No Cas = no pie. It’s the third time, guys.

Finally, in 8x22 Cas returns to Dean and decides to give him the pie himself. It’s funny how desperate he is about finding the pie for Dean - because actually HE IS A PIE.

Here Metatron comes, a villain for the next season, and make Cas forget about the pie - he provides some “greater” goals for Cas just to trick him.

I hate Metatron more than any other character in this story. He may be the ONE I hate at all - because it’s him who makes obstacles in Destiel way through seasons 8-11. He tricked Cas at the end of 8th season and took him from Dean, he killed Dean at the end of 9th season when Cas gave up an army for Dean, he was a reason of Dean and Cas disagreement in 10th season when Dean almost killed him, he said to Cas that he is expandable in season 11, which made Cas say “yes” to Lucifer. Not to mention he stole Cas’s grace, initiated Kevin’s assassination, killed packs of angels, worsened relationship between Cas and Heaven and was arrogant enough to claim himself a new God while manipulating homeless people. He was redeemed, found God and saved Cas from Amara, but I still don’t like him. He’s just a dick - just like Chuck, even worse.

The next season has two pie moments as far as I know, both of them refer to Cas:

9.03. I'm No Angel: Dean buys pie that Sam complains about. It does not appear that Dean gets a chance to eat the pie. Sam: Look at these chemicals. Do you even read the label? Dean: No. I read "pie." The rest is just "blah, blah, blah."

9.12. Sharp Teeth: Dean is given pie (baked by Sister Joyce and reputedly famous through the "Badger State") with lunch by a pack of werewolves. Although we don't see him eat it, Sam later says "They gave you lunch; they gave you pie".

9x03 is the episode where Cas is already a human and he is dangerous - the angels haunt him. But that’s not a big deal for Dean. He sees Cas, and the rest is just "blah, blah, blah". Though in this episode Dean has to kick Cas away. No pie again.

9x12 is the episode with Garth, who is also like family to Dean. They mourn about Kevin together and even share a hug. Garth is a werewolf here, he has a werewolf wife, and Dean and Sam are invited to the werewolves’ family dinner. The table is served with pies, which look just terrible. The same scary pies are in the fridge, while Dean is checking it, possibly looking for the human hearts. We don’t know if Dean’s eaten some pie here, but I suppose he’s not. ‘Cause this family, especially Sister Joyce, isn’t good after all... and because it’s Garth who get a pie here, not Dean. Garth found his romantic love and get happy life with her while Dean is carrying Mark of Cain now and after Kevin’s death can’t let himself to be happy. No pie, my friends. No pie.

Pie in the season 10 has rare appearances, we have more cake moments here, ‘cause Mark of Cain made Dean think about some new possibilities in his life for sure.

Still, we have such moments:

10.03. Soul Survivor: In between giving demon Dean purified blood injections, Sam goes to Dean's bedroom where he spots a half eaten piece of pie.

10.22. The Prisoner: When Crowley goes to a diner looking to make a deal with the cook, he is seen eating a slice of pie.

In 10x03 Dean is freed of being demon by Sam and Cas. We saw Sam couldn’t help him alone, and we saw Dean compliments Cas’s good look, as well as how is he upset when Cas said about female in his car. Cas came just to leave - so the pie wasn’t eaten again. But we have some progress here. :)

In 10x22 Dean hasn’t a pie either. He isn’t human again, not a demon, but not himself as well. He just doesn’t need food. He doesn’t need family business, family, love, trying something new. He doesn’t need Cas anymore. This is a heartbreaking episode with Destiel fight, with Dean who is actually less human than Crowley is. Despite Crowley shows his red eyes here, he also eats a cake. He CARES about Dean, Sam, Rowena, and last but not least he cares about Cas. I think that’s what his pie represents.

As much as I hate Metatron, I love Crowley. I’m sure that without him as an acting character Destiel would be just impossible and miss him so much in the latest seasons. He knew how to make it right.

As I said, there are NO PIE AND CAKE MOMENTS in season 11, which was supposed to make Destiel canon. But they didn’t. So, Mary, who was originally responsible for all this pie story, showed up. And the pie metaphor returned!

12.02. Mamma Mia: Dean finally gets some pie, when Mary brings him a blueberry pie after they have had dinner. To Dean's surprise, Mary admits that she actually bought the pie instead of making it as Dean previously believed his mother would do.

12.05. The One You've Been Waiting For: Sam brings a pie home from the store for Dean, but Dean is too distracted to eat it, opting instead to get a pie later after having killed Hitler.

12.10. Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets: Sam and Dean meets Ishim, who was Castiel’s superior. Dean is asking “Who wants some pie?” and by the end of conversation Ishim says “Have some pie“ to Dean while leaving money at the dinner table.

Here I must confess that I absolutely love Mary as well. :) I think she understands Dean, I think she knows that Cas is important for him from the time she’s first met him. Also I think she appreciates all that Cas’s doing. I wrote about it here just a bit, but actually there are a lot of examples. So that’s no wonder that is Mary who manages to give Dean a pie. In the end, in 12x12 Cas’ll say “I love you” because of what’s Mary done.

But again, the pie isn’t something that Mary made herself. She just can deliver the pie to Dean.

The pie moment from 12x05 is about Dean’s self-worth issue. Actually, Dean could have his pie, communicate with Cas despite Cas’s working with Crowley, but Dean thought he didn’t deserve that. He needed to do something nearly impossible, to kill Hitler, for instance, to fell worthy.

Back in the season 6, Cas’s working with Crowley was the reason of Dean and Cas’s fight, that literally almost ruined the world. So no wonder that Dean doesn’t like it.

I wrote about Destiel and Crowley here in details, from the start till the end. Just one little piece:

Season 12 - here Cas and Crowley start to look for Lucifer together and this is a horrible piece of news to Dean. Cas left him in 12x03 to work with Crowley again! Cas and Crowley are playing FBI agents together - it was Dean’s only role-play with Cas from 5x03!

The pie moment from 12x10 is textual only but important one, as for me. It’s well-known Steve Yokey’s episode,whom I absolutely adore. Here, during Cas and Dean’s conversation with Ishim, pie is mentioned:

Dean: Well, who wants some pie?

Ishim: You know, when I knew Castiel, he was a soldier. He was a warrior. He was an angel's angel. Now look how far he's fallen. Dean: How about a little coffee with that sugar? Ishim: No wings, no home. Just a ratty old coat and a pair of poorly trained monkeys. Dean: Oh. Well, you can go to Hell. Cas: Dean, it's fine. Sam: No. No, it's not. Cas: Sam, this isn't about me. It's about Benjamin. Ishim: Now that is refreshingly accurate. But since you brought a couple of extra “people” to our little chitchat, we should go somewhere more private. I have a safe house nearby. I'll go get Mirabel. So nice to see you, old friend. Have some pie.

Dean’s words about pie are for Ishim. Ishim ‘s words about pie are for Dean only - he also gives Dean some money. Their conversation begins and ends with a pie, and clearly they both understand the meaning. That’s why Ishim answers to Dean’s “Well, who wants some pie?” with “You know, when I knew Castiel, he was a soldier“.

‘Cause for Dean Cas = pie. And Ishim gets that.

All their words could be translated like that:

Dean: Do you wanna my Cas?

Ishim: He isn’t in female vessel anymore, and this matters for me. Also, I envy you two happy gays who like sweets and chick-flick moments. Dean: Too much sugar in your coffee for the man who doesn’t like sweets. You certainly wanna him for your purposes, and I won’t let you have him. Ishim: He was much more better with me back then. Dean: You used him. Cas: Dean, it's fine. Sam: No. No, it's not. Cas: Sam, this isn't about me. It's about Benjamin. Ishim: Oh, we’ll talk about him. In my place ‘cause I need some insurance. Your boyfriend is too aggressive. I’m interested in Mirabel, not in you, old friend, ‘cause she listens to my commands and looks pretty. And you can have your Cas, poor-trained monkey. Some charity from me here.

I love this episode so, so much. I’ve re-watched it for 10 times at least and I’m certain about “pie=Cas” meaning for 100%. To tell the truth, this conversation between Dean and Ishim was the reason I’ve decided to write this meta.

In season 13 we have one visual moment with pie:

13.08. The Scorpion and the Frog: When the Winchesters arrive at Smile Diner to meet with the Crossroads Demon Barthamus, Barthamus offers Dean a slice of cherry pie. After Barthamus leaves, Dean begins eating the pie, earning him a look from Sam.

Barthamus offers Dean a spell to find Jack. When Jack is back, Cas is back. Sam tells is to Dean some episodes later. Of course, Dean wants Cas back, so he took this possibility to get his pie, even if he didn’t like Barthamus.

There was also one textual pie moment in season 13, which refers to Cas. I wrote about it here.

There are some pie moments in season 14:

14.06. Optimism: While working a case with Jack Kline, Dean order pie for both of them and gets to actually enjoy it for once without any sort of interruption aside from Jack's awkward questions about sex.

14.10. Nihilism: Cas sees through Dean’s good memories, and here Dean’s words from 2.21 are mentioned: “Hey, see if they got any pie!“

14.11. Damaged Goods: As she goes shopping for the ingredients for Winchester Surprise, Mary promises to get pie. She returns with an apple pie, but they do not get around to eating it.

14.16. Don't Go in the Woods: Pie is apparently on Dean's shopping list for Jack Kline as he is seen examining one. Jack later tells Dean that he bought everything on the list except the beer, as Jack has no valid ID and he didn't want to use a fake one, suggesting that Jack did indeed buy the pie. It is unknown if Dean ever gets to eat it, but it's possible, since Dean had nothing to interrupt him from enjoying the pie after he got back to the Bunker except for going to the store to buy beer.

In 14x06 Dean and Jack both have Cas with them. And Jack asks Dean about sex. Hmmm. Yokey’s episode, guys!

14x10 is also Yokey’s. So, Cas=pie metaphor could be used here as well - pie moment from 2x21 changes.

14x11 - if Dean is going to seal himself in the Mal’ak box, there will be no pie=Cas for him for sure. ‘Cause THE CLOSET, guys.

14x16 - as long as Jack is the Dean, the pie=Cas is with him. We’ll see the opposite thing in the next few episodes.

As well as in seasons 13-14, pie moments in season 15 is far too easy to read:

15.10. The Heroes' Journey: Dean attempts to buy a copy of Delicious Pies magazine, but is denied when his credit card is declined.

15.11. The Gamblers: Dean learns that he and Sam only have enough money for two cups of coffee and a slice of pie. Dean asks for two forks for himself and Sam to share the pie, but complains about not getting to eat a cheeseburger instead. However, Dean never gets to eat his pie as the waitress notices that the Impala has a flat tire before she can bring it to him.

15x10 - no luck=no pie=no Cas. Sam mentions that they are unlucky and that Cas isn’t with them in one line here, and he is right undeniably. Also, it’s interesting that this time it’s not the pie itself that Dean is buying. It’s a magazine how to cook them! After his nearly love confession to Cas in 15x09 Dean is ready to make his happiness himself. Sadly, he is no luck this episode.

And he isn’t buying Asian Beauties magazine! Unbelievable.

15x11 - here Dean isn’t flirting with the waitress AT ALL. No cheeseburgers, he is to pie=Cas strictly now. He can complain, but he even can’t eat cheese for now - here Sam tells that to him. Cheese may also refer to his hunter’s life - without his luck Dean can’t be a hunter. Maybe it’s the taste of the peaceful future? ;) We’ll see.

The word “pie” can also refer to women. But I believe that above there are enough evidences that the pie meaning here is different.

That’s what we are calling a subtext.

Thanks for the reading!

_______________________

This was the last Destiel topic I’ve wanted to write about this far. Let’s see what the last 7 episodes’ll bring. :)

I’d be happy to analyze any Destiel moment with you guys so feel free to write in my ask and to comment.

#Destiel #dean winchester #dean/castiel #dean/cas #CasDean #DEANCAS #destiel meta #destiel-meta #castiel #benny lafitte #supernatural #SPN #Kevin Tran #Charlie Bradbury

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thecollege--dropout · 6 years ago

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y’all know i love beth & randall and i’m really happy they got over the season 3 angst but it seemed weird to me. they built it up and it lasted all season, more so in the last couple episodes, just to end it like they were fighting over what toilet paper to buy. i thought beth had a strong case so i’ve compiled a list of most, if not all, of randall’s sins.

i watched the whole damn series after the finale (bruh it was so much damn fast forwarding and they actually got me to watch 3x04 only to realize that it was a reason i stopped watching after the first 5 mins the first time 😫) and it was so hard to stay on task even with this list. this is kinda long but kinda funny, more commentary after

1x01- moved william in

1x05- moved kevin in; had a whole charleston dream nobody knew about

1x17- quit his job with no conversation before or after

1x18- I want to adopt a baby instead of asking if THEY could

2x01- “this isn’t going away for me beth. you need to get your head around it. if i can’t adjust you then i have to figure out a different way to do this” again with the “I” as if he’s in a relationship with himself

2x02- beth proposes a compromise & he doesn’t like her idea; he wants a brand spanking new kid. calls her reckless for wanting to foster

2x04- admittedly not that big a deal but deja’s hair situation; calls beth the lead parent and in the end, he still had her talk to deja just because his plan didn’t work

2x06- trifling about everything; i understand he just had an anxiety attack recently but still. pregnant beth has to comfort him; sidenote, beth looks amazing this episode

2x12- beth had to beg him to go to work; decided to follow some random mural instead of seeing through to his interview; decides to buy a building

2x13- didn’t listen to or consult his wife & partner about building renovations even though that’s her job

2x16- “vegas baby!” talmbout she’s detached & the head while he’s the heart because she needs a break; were they gonna hop on a plane in the middle of the night? sidenote, kate was so annoying like how did this become about you

2x17- no sins committed but i really liked deja’s mom at the end with the whole fam. i thought beth was finna have a friend FINALLY but shauna ain’t wanna sit there and eat her food

3x03- running for city councilman

3x05- not a sin but just for future sake; when he told her he’d drop out if she wasn’t feeling it after 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 weeks

3x08- basically said he let her do whatever because she’s his wife, not because her ideas were legit but we been knew it was a pity job; sidenote, i just think it’s funny how rebecca didn’t want miguel at thanksgiving because she felt like she was betraying her best friend yet she had no qualms about marrying him

3x09- beth wanted him to drop out because life was a lot and he refused; talmbout he made promises to a community.. what about your home sir?

3x10- thinks an audiobook will help parent his child. demands that beth & the girls show up to prop up his family man façade; talmbout she’s just upset because she has nothing she’s passionate about while he does 💆��‍♀️

3x13- no sins but damn, when she walked in that house and they embraced, my heart 😍🥰 and in the car lawd 😍

3x14- shoulda known it was all gonna go downhill when they started the ep all spicy and whatnot. randall tells beth to quit. i know you sacrificed a lot during my campaign but why don’t you sacrifice some more so i don’t have to head ass

3x15- how he gon ask who calling her at 4am then say he needs his phone for work at 4am. sir. still on that you should quit bs. “because i want you to see it the way i’m hearing it” whew chile. sidenote, madison really said toothpaste then gum 💀i had to watch this whole damn ep cuz they were all together the whole time 🤦🏾‍♀️ my mute button was put to good use tho 🙃

3x16- wanted her to drop her thing to be there for him because his job is more important than hers apparently.. what else is new? that voicemail just 🤦🏾‍♀️ sidenote, the montage of him doing the bare minimum was so contrive

3x17- left the voicemail to intentionally hurt her. said he won’t admit his job is more important because it will hurt her feelings, not because it isn’t true. heard none of what she said. it was so much bs in this i just can’t write it all. he was on one the whole episode; sidenote, sterling be swallowing susan’s whole face like relax sir 🥰 i love that for them tho. it took me like 3 hours to watch this one cuz them vows had me in a chokehold 😍😭

3x18- he ain’t do nun this episode but they both were making moves without each other.. deja’s speech was nice but randall ain’t have to do nun so 🤷🏾‍♀️

can we talk about how he said “i’ve never asked you to” in regards to her giving shit up for him. but like, he’s never said hey what do you want or get out of this? he just accepted it. anyway, i’ve already wrote a post about this so 🙄 when they’re good, they’re soooooooo good and i’m in love with them and i’m glad they get to live happily ever after but that resolution didn’t sit well with me.

the fact that it ended by them simply moving with no further conversation leads me to believe that this is not the end of their problems. this has been a clear problem their entire lives together. in the end, randall still got what he wanted because beth made it possible like she always does. she decided to move to philly and open a studio & teach there. randall didn’t have to give up anything.. except the big house which i’m kinda mad about because i like their house.

#this is us #randall x beth #beth pearson #randall pearson #had to repost #cuz tumblr on drugs

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the100theory · 7 years ago

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The Echo, Bellamy, Clarke, Octavia of It All....

Okay, I have a theory just based off of the end of the first episode. The first episode seemed to spend a lot of time giving us parallels/callbacks to the past seasons:

Clarke swimming in the lake in a very Octavia style way from the series premiere aka 1x01 “Pilot” (also, when did she have time to learn to swim?)

Jasper’s Goggles (1x01), Maya’s iPod, and Monty’s Letter (4x01)

Lexa’s throne...if you missed this, it’s what collapsed the temple when Clarke pulled her walking stick out.

Diyoza, our new evil female badass, saying “We’re not alone.” (1x01 after Jasper got hit with the spear)

Bellamy and Echo with “Wouldn’t it be easier to step outside?” (4x13)

Octavia and Madi both being the girl from under the floor. Octavia hiding from being known since there was a one child rule. Madi hiding from the Flamekeepers so they wouldn’t find out she’s a nightblood.

Clarke driving to the music in a Raven Reyes styled manner (3x01)

The bodies were resting just like the ones from Mt Weather (2x16)

Clarke using the map skills her father taught her (1x01)

Clarke saying “I used to think that life was about more than just surviving...” (2x14) “but I’m not sure anymore. Animals don’t feel guilty when they kill. They just do it. They kill, or they get killed. I tell myself that every life I took was for a reason, but the truth is, the other side had reasons, too. The grounders, the mountain men, even ALIE—their reasons to want us dead were the same as ours. It was us or them, kill or be killed. Simple as that.” Almost similar to Bellamy’s line from season 1 to Charlotte (1x03), “You can’t afford to be weak. Down here, weakness is death, fear is death.”

Echo referring to her banishment (4x10) and how she almost killed Octavia (4x04 and 4x05)

This season started off as sort of a love letter to seasons past. It’s a soft reboot, and I can safely say that I am absolutely in love with it. It feels as if the show has completely started over, but at the same time it still feels like the same show.

My biggest theory refers to Octavia making the promise of Echo’s banishment. From the small glimpse we got of her, I am dead set that Octavia is going to take on an almost villain role. She’s sort of been spiraling down this path since 3x09 when Lincoln was murdered by Pike. My thoughts go back to when Octavia says, to Bellamy, after he discovered she was alive, “Octavia is dead. She died when you killed Lincoln.” We all know that Bellamy had nothing to do with Lincoln’s death, but since he had been an ally of Pike’s for a good portion of season three, it’s easy for the viewer to see how Octavia could have seen it that way. Octavia’s behavior from 3x09 through the small snippet we got in 5x01 is a downhill swoop. I personally thought she was going in a good direction around the time of the conclave in 4x10 through 4x13 since she seemed to have forgiven Bellamy by saying “I love you, big brother.”

Octavia seems to have had a hard time in the bunker. You know, since they have Fight Club™️. I do think that this is going to be a callback to the Culling from season 1, 1x05, since there are nearly 1,200 people down there and that amount of people was to be sustained in a five year time span (hint: they’ve been down there 1 year and 7 days longer than they should have). So, to deal with this, there’s rumors of Octavia having to take serious action. We know that Fight Club™️ is a bloodbath, and I presume our former Chancellor Jaha has been one of the victims as Isaiah Washington is leaving the show (I think he’s only in a handful of episodes). There is also rumor that to deal with population reduction, and the food shortage, Octavia and the bunker have become cannibals. It makes sense, and this season has already proved that the human race will do anything they can to survive...like eating dead bugs off the grill of your rover.

So, how does Echo factor into this? Well, she said it herself, “I was banished.” She was, and Octavia is unlikely to forget this detail. She despised Echo, and I’m sure she’ll hate her even more to know that she is alive (and sleeping with her brother....). Bellamy seems to be super chilled this season and just says “Octavia is the least of our worries.” Oh boy, do I have news for you, buddy. I think Octavia is going to be a huge threat to Echo, and honestly, I do think Echo will die this season, around the 5x10 marker just as our Azgedan King did in 4x10. We need Echo in the plot for tension, and she’s going to create a lot of it. She’s important to the Bellamy and Octavia storyline. They’ve been together for potentially three years (she said it took him three years to forgive her) and she probably helped him grieve for Clarke (romantic or not). However, her death I think will be a huge parallel to Lincoln. Octavia blamed Bellamy for Lincoln’s death and this left them on a huge out for almost two seasons. Bellamy clearly believes he’s in love with Echo, and if Octavia kills her. There’s no going back for those two. He thinks he still knows his sister, and six years is a lot of time. These are important years for a young adult. Octavia was still 17 when he went back with SpaceKru. Ages 17-25 are such important years for a human being, and it’s where we really learn who we are. I don’t think 23 year old Octavia will be changing any time in the future. The Octavia we will meet in “Red Queen” will be someone we might not love anymore. Echo’s potential death would make Bellamy hate his sister for the first time in his life, and cling onto something that isn’t his sister. His friends, as he’s already said, are his family. Clarke is now excluded, but I’m almost positive that they’ll fall back into old routines. So I see a huge role reversal between Bellamy and Octavia in the face of a loved one. Death motivated Octavia...I wonder what it will do for Bellamy post Praimfaya (we all know him after Gina...)

I also think Echo’s extremely important to the Bellamy and Clarke arc, hence why I think her death will happen later in the season. Bellamy has clearly been Clarke’s crutch for the last 2,199 Days. In the days post Praimfaya, she spent her solitary time talking into the radio praying he hears her. I’ve had people suggest that the messages aren’t just to Bellamy, but to me, it’s pretty obvious. Especially the one scene after she found the berries in Shadow Valley, “It’s been 58 Days. By now Monty should have the algae farm producing. How bad does it suck (no offense Monty).” Her messages all seem to be tailored to Bellamy, and she seems to miss him the most. We see her saying in the ruins of Arkadia, “What’s the point if all there is, is pain and suffering? Real cheerful, Clarke. I’m sorry. Ignore me, okay? I haven’t had water in two days....In case this is the last time I get to do this...please don’t feel bad about leaving me here. You did what you had to do. I’m proud of you.” This statement just screams that she is talking to Bellamy, and you can really tell she misses their conversations. She misses the comfort he gave her, and perhaps that’s why she radios him and not anyone else. This also makes me think that Echo and Bellamy is some tension between Bellamy and Clarke. They’ve had six years to think about those eight months on the ground. They haven’t said anything, but maybe feelings were realized? In the opening SpaceKru scene, we get Bellamy staring at Earth with an almost reminiscent look in his eye. He’s probably thinking about Clarke, just as he had when watching the scorching Earth in the season 4 finale. They’re clearly on each other’s minds a lot, Clarke says “God, this would be so much easier if I knew you were alive. If I knew I was gonna see you again.” And Bellamy seems to bring Clarke’s death into a lot of things, and like Clarke, he has also kept track of the time passed. So much so that every time it’s mentioned, he gets extra chores....he chooses Murphy.

Echo is very much the teetering point this season. She is going to be important to both of Bellamy’s story lines. She even asks what will they be once they get back to Earth. I think this is both to Octavia and, unknowingly at the time, Clarke. Once SpaceKru knows Clarke is alive, I’m fairly certain Echo will know she doesn’t stand a chance. We’ve had a lot of references of people noting their relationship. We don’t know what how Bellamy grieved, or what was said about Clarke during those six years, but we do know this:

Murphy knows Bellamy would do anything to save Clarke. He even said to him in 3x15, “You’re not the only one here trying to save someone you care about.” Octavia wasn’t in immediate danger, but Clarke was. This was after Bellamy said, “Clarke’s in trouble” and Murphy replied, “Clarke’s always in trouble.”

Jaha points out in 4x03 that “[Bellamy] keeps [Clarke] centered” to which Bellamy replied “[Jaha] got it backwards.”

Roan definitely knew, but never said anything

Abby asked Bellamy and Clarke to protect each other...she also knew (4x12)

Raven, As ALIE, said to Bellamy “Too bad you were never that devoted to Gina” (3x11).

Monty knew. He was there for two different instances. Bellamy saying in 3x02: “I CANT LOSE CLARKE....we can’t lose her.” And Bellamy saying in 4x13: “I left her behind. I left her behind, and we all die anyway.” Both those lines just break my heart.

I really think they’re using Echo as a catalyst this season. Her presence will change things, and I think she may even give us Bellarke. We didn’t see Bellamy and Echo become a thing, nor did we see them truly interact until the end of 5x01. Therefore, we don’t have any real attachment to them as we do with Bellamy and Clarke. Jason Rothenberg, the show runner, even said that this is Bellamy and Clarke’s story. So, when Bellamy says “nothing is gonna change on the ground,” we know that shit is about to go down. Long story short: “It’s gonna be a bumpy ride!”

#the 100 #the 100 theory #bellamy blake #echo #echo kom azgeda #octavia blake #clarke griffin #wonkru #bellarke #the 100 analysis #5x01 theory #season 5 theory #Eden theory

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sage-nebula · 7 years ago

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On Keith’s home, and his relationship with his father

One idea I’ve seen floating around the fandom is the idea that Keith lived in the desert shack with his father prior to enlisting at the Garrison (or more specifically, prior to being orphaned). I’ve also seen, albeit to a lesser extent, the idea that Keith’s relationship with his father wasn’t great---that perhaps his father even mistreated him somehow, or that Keith’s feelings toward his father are negative because of how he was orphaned, and so on and so forth. Both of these ideas are ideas that I disagree with given what we are presented in canon, and as such, I’d like to take a moment to address them now.

First, because we can get through this part pretty quickly (and because it segues nicely into the next section), let’s discuss the idea that the desert shack was Keith’s childhood home. Many people believe this to be the case, for a few reasons, I think. One of the reasons probably has to do with the scene in 1x02 when the Paladins are trying to mind meld, and they each start off by calling an image to mind. The idea that many have, I think, is that the Paladins were thinking of their homes and families. This is likely an idea perpetuated by the fact that Lance thinks of his family, while Pidge struggles not to think about the last day she saw Matt. However, it’s important to note that thinking about home and family was not the point of the exercise. The Paladins were instead supposed to think of something that calmed them, something that centered them, so that they could then focus on forming a mental image of their Lions. So although we do get this from Keith:

We also have Shiro thinking about the Garrison’s launch shuttle (it’s what it looked like to me when I just rewatched the scene, anyway), and Hunk thinking about food. I think we can all agree that delicious foods are not Hunk’s family, and that Shiro’s home is not that shuttle. Rather, these are images that calmed them, images that were easy for them to focus on. Therefore, the same can be said of Keith. Keith thought of the shack in the desert because it was peaceful for him. Whatever emotional turmoil drove him out there in the first place, his time spent in that shack (and exploring the desert) was one that was peaceful, calming. It’s one that allows him to center himself now. It has nothing to do with being his childhood home, especially because Keith more or less tells us himself that it isn’t.

I’m referring to what he tells Shiro (and Lance, Pidge, and Hunk since they were in the room) in 1x01. When Shiro asks him what he has been working on, Keith says:

If the shack was somewhere Keith had lived previously, he would say something like, “After I was booted from the Garrison, I decided to come home” or “After I was booted from the Garrison, I came to this place I stayed in when I was little.” We would be told that this was a home to Keith before his expulsion if that’s what it actually was, but it wasn’t. Instead, Keith was drawn out to that shack. Something did compel him there, but it was not familiarity or nostalgia. It was instead the calling of the Blue Lion (though Keith didn’t recognize that at the time), sending energy signatures out that he was able to pick up on, even though he doesn’t understand why.

There’s also how he reacts to his dad being there in his mindscape in 2x08. Now, just to get this out of the way right off the bat, let us remember what that mindscape actually is:

The mindscape is not only not real, but it is also not objective. The suit Keith wore during the Trials of Marmora created a mindscape---as well as everything and everyone in the mindscape---based on things it pulled from Keith’s own thoughts, feelings, and perceptions, centered around his hopes and fears. Everything we see during the mindscape (both the hologram of Shiro, and the hallucination of Keith’s father) is fabricated from thoughts, feelings, hopes, and fears that already exist within Keith. Most importantly, it’s filtered through his perception. Although the camera is not in first person, and thus we can still see Keith’s facial expressions, it’s important to remember that the way Shirologram and Keith’s father act during that sequence is how Keith expects (or, in the case with Shiro, fears) they will react. It’s not meant to be objectively accurate characterization; it’s characterization based on Keith’s perception of how they feel (or how he fears they will feel) about him.

So with that said, let’s take a look at how Keith reacts after he “chases Shiro” through the door (really he just collapses falls into his hallucination) and finds himself in his shack. When he first arrives, his father is not there:

The suit created the shack for him (possibly even as a sort of . . . not failsafe, per se, but Keith was dying, and the shack is somewhere Keith thinks of as a place of solace and comfort, so if the suit wanted to pull something Keith would hope or long for as he lay dying, the shack would be a good bet), but although it pulled the shack from his thoughts and hopes, it didn’t place his father there, not right away. To me, this says that when Keith thinks of his shack, he doesn’t imagine his father there. It’s not a place where his dad also lived.

But that’s when Keith hears the rumbling outside:

And that’s what causes him confusion at first. The shack being empty isn’t confusing---he lived there by himself for a year. But the loud, aggressive noise from outside catches him off-guard. And when he turns to look . . .

That’s when he hears his dad, and look at that face. We get a close-up of his eyes to show us just how shocked he is. Not only has it been actual years since he last spoke to his dad, but it’s clear that the last place Keith would expect his father to be is in that shack with him. He wasn’t there whe Keith first arrived, after all, but to me it seems as though Keith wouldn’t have expected him to be there at all. His reaction is far too stunned to make me think that Keith sees this shack as a childhood home where he once lived with his father. And keep in mind, it’s not just this shot of his wide eyes that tell us how flabbergasted he is by this. It’s how he greets his father, too:

He gasps when he turns around and sees his father standing there in his living room. His voice is soft as he says, “Dad?” He honestly can’t believe it. He’s astounded. And for him to be that shocked, for him to be that aghast at the fact that his father is in that shack, that tells me that he never in his wildest dreams would have thought that his father could ever be there. This is not a memory; this shack was never a home to Keith’s father. And though Keith’s dad says this:

Remember that the suit is creating this. The suit is pulling data from Keith’s mind in order to create this entire hallucination for him. Keith’s dad is not saying that Keith is home because Keith’s dad, as an actual (presumably living) human alive back on Earth, would see this shack as Keith’s home. Keith’s dad is saying “you’re home, son” because Keith himself still views the desert shack as home. He lived there for a year, and unlike his room at the Castle, he had no problem spreading out his things and really making himself a home there in that shack. He made himself a place to stay, long-term, in that shack. Keith thinks of the shack as home, the suit is able to read his thoughts, and so the suit has his dad say this, both because Keith views the shack as home, and because Keith views his father as someone who would welcome him home.

And now we can get into the discussion of Keith’s perception of his father.

The Trial suit creates projections of Keith’s greatest hopes paired with his greatest fears. In the first hologram that Keith faces, his greatest hope in that moment is to see Shiro. His greatest fear, however, is that Shiro will reject and abandon him---that Shiro sees him as someone selfish, as someone not worth helping, loving, or protecting. He then “chases after” Shiro (read: passes out on the floor) and finds himself in his shack. He hears a rumble outside, and then he hears his father’s voice. His father welcomes him home.

While his greatest hope was, at first, to have Shiro come and provide him support after he just finished getting the everloving Hell kicked out of him for two days straight, that fell apart as a result of his greatest fear. Shiro rejected and abandoned him. Having lost Shiro, now, Keith (subconsciously) latches onto a new hope. A new hope overrides his previous one. Now he doesn’t want to see Shiro again, despite how he at first tried to chase after him. Now, as shown to us by his Trial suit, what Keith wants most is to be back in that shack. He wants to go home. And more specifically, he doesn’t just want to go home and be by himself. He wants to go home and be welcomed home by his father. In that moment, after having being beaten for two days straight and then (seemingly) rejected and abandoned by the closest thing to family Keith has left, all Keith wants to do is go home to his dad.

Let that sink in for a minute.

But it doesn’t end there. The scene far and away doesn’t end there. After Keith’s father tells him that he is home, Keith stares at him like this:

He’s still having trouble processing this. The fact that his dad is there, the fact that his dad has welcomed him home---he wants both of these things, badly. We know this because of the suit. But the fact that his dad is calling this home is one that he’s still . . . stunned by. But this moment does not last for very long.

The rumbling, the crashes---all of those noises from outside are growing louder. Keith, naturally, questions them. But what’s interesting is his father’s reaction. Remember, this is not actually his father; this is Keith’s perception of his father. And among the other things Keith’s dad says to him in this scene, one common thread throughout his dialogue is the fact that he repeatedly tries to reassure Keith:

“Don’t worry about that.” . . . “We’ll be fine as long as we stay in here.” . . . “Everything’s fine.”

These are all reassurances, meant to calm and assuage fears. While Keith is not someone who openly shows panic like Hunk or Lance, we still see at multiple points throughout the series that he is still prone to stress, worry, and anxiety. The difference is that Keith tends to internalize these concerns; unless they affect the mission as a whole / other people, Keith tends to keep his anxieties to himself, letting them fester and eat him from the inside out, manifesting in nightmares and poorly regulated emotions when they finally overwhelm him during waking hours. With that being said, the fact that Keith sees his dad as someone who would reassure him is rather huge. While some might say that Keith’s dad was only saying that to keep Keith from looking outside and leaving, remember (for the billionth time, I know) that Keith’s perception of his father is still what creates this particular characterization of his father that we see in the mindscape. That Keith’s father repeatedly tries to reassure him here by telling him not to worry (and the fact that the second reassurance includes himself staying with Keith, “we’ll be fine . . .”) means that Keith has a reason to believe that his dad would say that. Just as Shirologram’s dialogue was borne from Keith’s perceptions and fears (at first Keith’s perception / hope that Shiro would support him, and then Keith’s fear that Shiro would reject him based on the way others have acted), Keith’s dad dialogue is borne from Keith’s perceptions (and hopes, this time) that his dad would reassure and comfort him. Given that Keith is someone who is prone to taking things seriously and having anxieties that he doesn’t do the best at dealing with at times, the idea that Keith has this subconscious perception that his dad would reassure him that everything is okay, he doesn’t need to worry, and that they will be fine because that’s how his dad used to talk to him when he was younger is a fair one.

Furthermore, it’s important to remember that the Trial suit is not a malicious entity. The Trial suit creates a mindscape based on Keith’s own perceptions and feelings; it does not have an ulterior motive, it is not trying to kill Keith. To suggest that Keith’s dad was trying to keep him from going outside purely because going outside would end the hallucination (and thus Keith’s dad’s dialogue is sinister rather than reassuring here) is to suggest that the suit itself wanted Keith dead. There is nothing supporting this. The suit does not have sentience. The suit is technology, but not artificial intelligence. Everything we see here is not a result of the suit manipulating anything; rather, it is a result of the suit pulling things from Keith’s own mind.

Moving on.

After the first crash, and Keith’s first question of what is going on outside, his father (as shown above) tells him not to worry, and that everything will be fine so long as they stay indoors. He then asks him (also as shown above) if he wants to catch up. Keith’s reaction to this question is very telling:

Keith is frowning, but that is not an angry frown, not by a long shot. Though his brows come together in the middle, they’re pointed upwards. He looks far more like he had a shot to his heart rather than a shot to his temper. His verbal response is no less telling; if you listen to the scene, his voice is incredibly soft as he replies, he places emphasis on “course” (“Of course I do”), and his voice cracks a little over the words. There is no question in Keith’s mind that what he wants---what he desperately wants, his greatest hope---is to have time to spend and catch up with his father. That he wants this so badly, perhaps combined with the idea that his dad would even see this as a question, wrenches Keith’s heart as he answers. This is not the reaction of a boy who has a negative history with his father. This is not the reaction of a boy who had a bad relationship with his father. Keith is not a liar; he doesn’t beat around the bush, nor does he hide what he feels (aside from trying his best to conceal his anxieties / fears). If he had an issue with his father, he would say so, right here and now. But he doesn’t. Instead, he says, “Of course I do” when his dad asks him if he wants to catch up. In this scene, both the shack and Keith’s father are his greatest hopes. This is what he wants, and he wouldn’t want this if his relationship with his father wasn’t a positive one. He wouldn’t want to catch up if he didn’t long to see his father again. And as the scene goes on, this is reinforced:

Once again, these lines from Keith’s father aren’t really from Keith’s father as a person, but are from Keith’s thoughts. It has been a long time since Keith and his father have last seen each other. And Keith thinks---he hopes---that his dad has a lot to tell him. No doubt Keith wants to know why they were separated, what his father has been doing all this time . . . he wants these answers. Since these are answers he wants, his bodysuit draws on them in order to project them into the mindscape as dialogue spoken by Keith’s father. But of course, the suit being what it is, it has to show Keith his greatest fears as well. That’s what it did last time. But instead of repeating what happened last time, and showing how Keith’s dad would abandon him as well, the suit decides to take another track:

Keith’s greatest hope is to be somewhere he feels is home with his father again. His greatest hope is to have his dad reassure him like that. But his greatest fear is that the Galra Empire will start slaughtering countless millions. Perhaps because the suit couldn’t portray Keith’s dad rejecting and abandoning him (more on that in a second), it instead chose to latch onto another one of his greatest fears. We know that Keith has had nightmares about the Galra before; in 2x06 it was a nightmare of himself being unwillingly drafted into Zarkon’s army that propelled him to sneak out in the middle of the night to see if Zarkon was tracking him. The idea of the Galra wreaking destruction---and that idea that he isn’t doing anything to stop it---is one that is terrifying to him. But that said, it isn’t the only terrifying thing.

Ever since Keith saw that Ulaz’s blade had the same insignia as the one on his knife, he has had growing anxiety over the fact that he is part-Galra. In 2x06 we see these anxieties reach a boiling point as he has a nightmare of being unwillingly drafted into Zarkon’s army, being rejected by the Red Lion, and ultimately assisting in the destruction of the universe against his will. He tries, in a roundabout way, to assauge his fears over what he by this point believes to be his heritage by trying to reason with Allura that Galra, as a race, can’t be all bad. But this conversation does nothing to assauge his fears, because Allura is adamant that all Galra are evil, and Keith---believing himself to be Galra at this point, though too terrified to speak those thoughts aloud---goes quiet.

Here, however, he’s forced to confront this fear. Keith knows that his father is human. He spent at least part of his childhood with the man; he has a strong, secure image of his father. However, it seems that he has no idea who his mother was at all. Not only do we never actually see her at any point throughout this sequence, but the mere fact that Keith’s mother is the one he suspects was Galra tells us as much. While many people have assumed that his mother must be Galra thanks to this hallucination, remember that this hallucination is not objective fact; this hallucination is created from Keith’s mind. Keith is terrified that his mother is Galra. His suit, pulling that fear from his mind, “confirms” this as truth. But it doesn’t really. Even at the end, when Keith finally awakens his blade, all Kolivan says is that he has Galra blood in his veins. While I feel it’s pretty certain that his Galra DNA comes from his mother’s side (his dad is clearly not Galra), that doesn’t mean that his mother was pure Galra. It doesn’t mean that his mother was a member of the Blade of Marmora. Keith assumes, based on the information he has, that the dagger must have been his mother’s, and that she must be Galra. The suit reacts accordingly by placing this information within Keith’s mindscape. This is not objective statement of fact; it’s a projection of Keith’s deepest, darkest fears.

But what’s interesting is that Keith’s perception of his father does not tap into anything remotely fearful throughout this entire sequence. All of Keith’s fears in this portion of the mindscape are unrelated to Keith’s father, aside from the fact that Keith’s father is the mouthpiece used to talk about Keith’s actual fears (i.e. his mother’s true identity, and what that means for him, as well as the fate of countless innocents). When Keith first looks out of the window and sees that the Galra Empire is slaughtering the masses and approaching the shack, he turns back to his father to tell him that he has to leave. Notably, this is not something Keith wants to do, as evidenced both by how he says it, and how he looks when he says it.

Keith’s expression changes to what we see in the second screenshot as he stumbles over that, “I-I’m sorry.” He’s in shock because of what he has just witnessed through the window, but he looks and sounds pained as he tells his dad that he has to leave. If Keith had a bad relationship with his father, or even a distant one, he wouldn’t feel regretful about having to leave. Remember, at this point Keith’s father had said nothing about the knife or Keith’s past. It isn’t until Keith says this that Keith’s dad brings up the knife (and answers, another one of Keith’s hopes) up at all. The fact that Keith apologizes, that he stutters a little, that his voice cracks, that his face falls in regret is not regret or pain at having to leave answers behind. It’s regret and pain at having to leave his dad behind. Keith does not want to leave. His dad is still a source of positivity for him in this scene.

His mom, however, isn’t. When Keith’s father tells him that Keith’s mother is the one who gave him the knife, look at Keith’s reaction to this news:

And further, his reaction as he anxiously tells his dad that he needs answers about the knife’s origin:

Keith looks more than just anxious: he looks scared. He has to know where the knife came from, he has to know what it means. He has to know if all of the fears he has surrounding his mother are well-founded. Bear in mind once again that Keith really has no image of his mother; bear in mind also that, in his recently released vlog, Keith says, “My mom left me.” We have seen Keith’s mother brought up very little, but every bit we see of his feelings regarding her---both what is said in the mindscape, how he reacts to what is said in the mindscape, and what he says in the vlog---tells us that his feelings toward her aren’t exactly positive. It’s not that he’s angry with or hates her, per se, but it is that he doesn’t know her, he doesn’t know what she was like, and while he wants to know, he’s also scared to find out. His mother is a source of his greatest fears in this scene, but his father?

Not only does he (as demonstrated above) sincerely want to catch up with his father, and not only is he sincerely pained and apologetic when he says he has to go . . . not only does his perception of his father offer him multiple reassurances that he doesn’t have to feel worried or stress, not only does his perception of his father offer him the answers he seeks . . . but his father, as crafted from his own subconscious, also looks sincerely sad when Keith urgently asks about his mother, as well as when Keith ultimately decides to go:

Keith’s father looks honestly pained when he looks down at the knife and says that Keith’s mother is almost there, and that she’ll give him the answers he seeks. He looks honestly sad when Keith is about to leave. While what he says just before we get this shot of him sounds as though (if you’re just reading the words) it could be angry:

Not only is there no anger in his voice, but when Keith looks back and we get the close-up on his father shown above, there is not a single trace of anger there. Keith’s father does not grow angry with him once throughout this entire scene. Keith’s father does not once accuse him of anything throughout the entire scene. Keith’s father does not yell at him, he does not berate him, he does not guilt him, he does not reject him, he does not abandon him. Again, this is not actually Keith’s father; but this is a projection of Keith’s father based on Keith’s own thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. This is how Keith believes his father would react. If Keith had any thoughts or feelings whatsoever that his father would yell at, reject, berate, abandon, or do anything remotely close to that to him, the suit would project it, just as it did with Shiro. Keith has, regardless of the reason, legitimate and canonical fear that Shiro berating, rejecting, and abandoning him like that is a possibility. Whether or not the real Shiro ever would is irrelevant; Keith has those fears and that perception. But he does not seem to have a similar perception of his father. Whereas he reacts to the idea of his mother with anxiety and fear when she is brought up in this mindscape, there is nothing negative associated with his father. Instead, Keith sees his father as a source of comfort (“Don’t worry . . . we’ll be fine . . . everything’s fine”), as a source of welcoming and familiarity (“You’re home . . . don’t you want to catch up?”), and as a source of answers (“I have so much to tell you . . . don’t you want to know where you came from?”). Everything about the way Keith’s father is projected in this scene speaks to Keith having a very positive perception of him. It speaks to their relationship as having been a good one. It speaks to their separation---the one that left Keith in foster care---as having been unwilling on both their parts, considering that the suit never once even suggests that Keith believes that his father abandoned, or even wanted to abandon him. If Keith felt that his dad wanted to abandon him, the suit would show that. The suit would show that instead of having Keith’s dad urging him to stay, and instead of having Keith’s dad say that he wants to catch up, that he has so much to tell Keith. That’s how Keith thinks ( / hopes / feels) his dad would react. That is what is believable to Keith. That tells us everything we need to know about how much Keith misses his father, and how much of a positive force his father was in his life before they were separated (however that came about).

But just in case the point needs to be driven home:

Keith not only looks more crushed than he has at any other point throughout this entire scene, but he sounds like he is about to cry as he tells his dad goodbye. He doesn’t want to leave his father. He doesn’t want to have to say goodbye. He does, because it’s the Right Thing to Do if people are being slaughtered by the Galra Empire outside and he can do something about it, but he doesn’t want to. If he had a bad relationship with his father, this would not pain him as much as it does. But it does pain him. It hurts him deeply. If there had been any other option, there is little doubt that he would have chosen to stay.

So while the shack was not a childhood home for Keith (but was instead a place he made home after his expulsion from the Garrison, and a place he still thinks of when he needs to think of a place of solace, calm, and comfort), we can say for pretty much certain that his relationship with his father was a good one. It was a short one (Keith was “orphaned at a young age” according to the website), but it was positive. It’s one Keith deeply misses. And if the universe has any kindness in it, maybe Keith will be reunited with his father again one day.

We (and Keith) can only hope.

#voltron #vld #keith kogane #meta #a blade of storm and fire #ryuuga kogane #keith misses his dad so much #i'm convinced that the separation was not willing on either of their parts #and that keith knows - or at least thinks - this. that his dad didn't abandon him #keith misses his dad for a reason #and that reason is that his dad took care of him as best he could #for as long as he could

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theragamuffininitiative · 7 years ago

Text

Winn Schott - He Protects the Stars (a S1 masterpost)

Me, rambling about my favorite cape-less hero, in chronological order. This is an appreciation post for anything and everything I can mention and that is all.

Episodic breakdowns under the cut.

This post will be reblogged as I add in episodes.

1x01, Pilot

Jack-of-all-trades #1: Head IT Guy at CatCo

Does not push after being turned down for a date. (which, btw, considering how her dates goes, I can’t help but think Kara would have had much more fun having a chill friends night watching a movie with Winn)

Afraid of heights, meets Kara on the roof anyways. WHAT THE HECK WAS SHE THINKING SCARING SOMEBODY LIKE THAT, JUMPING OFF A ROOF.

Immediately ready to listen to whatever Kara is about to confess and validates her trust, and accepts his friend for exactly who she is - all the time??? #supportive friend

Jack-of-all-trades #2: Tailor (later says that “the Supergirl suit sucked” but that Kara didn’t need it to be amazing anyway.) Still. Makes her supersuit after a few...errors. Also works on this project for days to get it right.

Jack-of-all-trades #3: Hacker

Admits when he’s wrong: “a cape aids in aerodynamics!”

1x02, Stronger Together

tbh, Winn doesn’t get a lot of attention in this episode but

Encourages Kara after her first big mess-up, telling her she’s going to get better, and everything will be ok. #supportive friend

Is Supergirl’s information source and cohort, helping her fight crimes. Can you imagine early Kara Danvers trying to decide which emergencies to respond to first? (Later joined by James) #hero

Obviously jealous of the obvious attraction between Kara and James, but keeps his distance and doesn’t make things difficult.

Jack-of-all-trades #4: Mathematician/Tactician, instantaneous rattling off of an ambulance weight and the amount of newton force Supergirl needs to use in order to, as James puts it, be gentle. #genius

1x03, Fight or Flight

Creates the team’s first base of operations.

Writes and implements an algorithm that is somehow capable of sweeping an ENTIRe CITY for traces of radiation??? So that Supergirl can find one particular villain?? #genius

“This isn’t on you, Kara.” #supportive friend

Is the one to find Krull. -Because of making a connection between radioactivity in Chernobyl and MOLD (it’s a real thing btw) #hero #genius

Steps in and saves Kara from getting in trouble with Cat. #supportive friend

Okay, but whether or not you ship them, Kara and Winn are having so much fun dancing in this scene, they are too happy. Also, making Kara laugh when she’s stressed. Also, looks to Kara when James interrupts and doesn’t make a fuss when his dance is stolen.

Jack-of-all-trades #5: Dancer - how many IT guys you know who are also comfortable on the dance floor

Empathetic/Perceiving: “Hey, you okay?” the second Kara walks in and he can tell something’s wrong, and then makes an effort to cheer her. #supportive friend

1x04, Livewire

Righteous indignation at Leslie’s slamming of Supergirl/her costume/everything.

HE WAS GONNA SPEND THANKSGIVING ALONE GUYS not really relevant but HE ALSO ENDED UP SPENDING THANKSGIVING ALONE IN THE END ANYWAY??

Does his best to make that dinner go well for the Danvers. #supportive friend

His little “grateful to be included/thankful for you” speech.

1x05, How Does She Do It

watches the phones for Kara so she can go Supergirl stuff. #supportive friend

Jack-of-all-trades #6: Reluctant Babysitter - despite feeding Carter nothing but junk food, is actually the responsible one looking out for the kid the whole episode. -James sat in the same space and didn’t notice the kid leaving apparently, soooo.

apparently makes a habit of camping out in Cat Grant’s office to play video games on all her monitors???

“Winn, you’re getting killed.” - “Every day, kid.” will never not be a line that doesn’t hurt.

“Hey, you alright?” Empathetic/Perceiving again when James is having trouble with Lucy. #supportive friend

Figures out where Carter went immediately. #genius

Is trusted enough by Kara that she abandons intel to pursue something else on his word - and it pays off. #hero

Probably is responsible for Carter gaining a sense of humor.

1x06, Red Faced

Another too-small Winn episode

Is alarmed and against the idea of breaking into the DEO database - as one should be. “That’s treason!” Initially refuses, even knowing it would earn him points with Kara.

“You’re the only one that can help us.” Alex’s words, not mine.

Relents and hacks the DEO anyway for Alex and Jeremiah’s sake. (yes, Kara, pulling the dad card was a dirty pull) #supportive friend

Not relevant but: Winn just casually/insistently pushing James’ arm out of the way of his computer screen after James sits on his desk.

“Wait, does the robot fight mean that game night is cancelled?” #priorities

Finds out about Jeremiah, and is the one to figure out that Hank redacted the files. #genius

1x07, Human For A Day

No, wait, he actually is The Best IT Guy for the job: gets CatCo back up and running in a matter of a few hours after an earthquake. #genius

Supergirl’s #1 Fan and always takes offense when she’s snubbed.

“That’s the story. Ordinary people like you, used to doing mundane and small things, finding themselves in the midst of a crisis doing something extraordinary. Heroes.” Cat said it, not me.

So the first time I saw Winn’s reaction to Kara and James hugging, I thought he was being pretty selfish. But his first words are to remind Kara about Lucy. And even if it’s out of jealousy, he’s concerned. Because he is right when he says Kara can’t have a normal life - she’s shown she doesn’t want one. Winn, maybe better than James or Kara herself, understands what that means. The superhero doesn’t get the guy is a lesson he’s been teaching himself, so of course it’s going to be how he reacts. James has a girlfriend, and Kara would never be able to settle into a human existence.

Is stressed after answering phones for Kara for a bit, but is the one to communicate to an entire floor of trapped people what they need to do, and that they’re going to be rescued. #hero

Uses a screwdriver in the track to keep the elevator door open. Idk if you’ve ever worked with elevators, but that takes maneuvering. #genius

He reaaaaally doesn’t like heights guys.

-BUT pulls people out of the elevator shaft anyway. #hero

Can I just point out this is the second, and will not be the last, time Winn has watched his friend(s) plummet to their inevitable doom?

Not here to justify Winn’s rudeness at the end of the episode, but Kara getting all cuddly with the guy she’s attracted to when he has a steady girlfriend is not a good thing. If it were my friend, I’d be disappointed in them too.

1x08, Hostile Takeover

So not only does Cat call Winn a handsome little Hobbit, she trusts him, and knows that Kara does too. #she gets it

“No one knows the computer systems better than you.” Kara said it, not me.

“Shouldn’t we be focusing on the whole Psycho Aunt Astra is back in town for round two thing?” #priorities

I’m 95% certain Winn’s passive-aggressive turns in these few episodes was a red herring of foreshadowing him to be a villain and I’m vaguely disappointed they didn’t do it a little more because red herrings and foreshadowings are my fave.

If Winn was petty like people sometimes think, he wouldn’t be hanging out on his break with James. Anyone who has lunch or coffee breaks with coworkers knows this is true. #supportive friend

Comes up with the plan to get Armstrong’s files and evidence against him, and runs the whole operation. #genius #hero

“What are you guys doing here?” “Saving the day!” ...okay those were Winn’s own words but he’s not wrong.

gosh he looks so happy to be sticking it the man here #hero

“You did it.” ^_^ #supportive friend

NOT REALLY RELEVANT BUT JAMES TELLING WINN TO RISK SEEKING AFTER KARA GETS ME EVERY TIME, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HOW THOSE RELATIONSHIPS GO RIGHT AFTER.

1x09, Blood Bonds

A good Winnisode means additional hashtags

Not really relevant, but the whole scene where Kara is freaking out about being “normal” is genius and hysterical. “Are you having a sTROKE??”

When James says he didn’t find anything out from Max Lord, Winn immediately knows he’s hiding something, though Kara is oblivious, and immediately calls him out on it, though he waits for Kara to leave, giving James the benefit of the doubt. #the most empathetic character on television #genius

“Kara’s a little too trusting to notice when you’re lying, but I’m definitely not.” Not many people have given him a reason to trust them. #protect him

James: “they’re targeting Kryptonians” Winn: “Including Kara.” #supportive friend (Credit to James for being on the same page.)

#DoesNotWantToBreakTheLaw

James: “do you really want Kara to find out you let me do this all alone?” Um. No. Bad. #too loving and forgiving and easily manipulated for his own good

Hacks Max Lord’s "not state-of-the-art security, it Is The Art” security, in a matter of hours. #genius

“You can’t kick lasers, can you.” #the snark

Stands in the way and successfully stops Kara at her angriest, the most dangerous we’ve seen of her yet, from going after Max Lord in a blind rage and doing something terrible. Bonus of Kara yelling at James that “you can’t stop me” and turning to the doorway to find Winn blocking her path. #supportive friend #hero

!!! watch that scene again.

Kara: “I almost did something today that I would have regretted for the rest of my life.” J’onn: “What stopped you?” Kara: “My friends. The DEO keeps you human. They do that for me.” #hero #supportive friend

“Eh, it’s why you keep us around, right?” #self-deprecating smile

Can I just take a moment to appreciate Winn’s wardrobe? Especially that fine choice in pants. 10/10 Okay, we’re good.

1x10, Childish Things

Oh here we go, friends, here we go, this is gonna be long. Full disclosure this episode is mostly sucker-punched emotions

Winn’s voice introducing the episode, yes please.

*insert mini rant about how this is The Worst prison ever (discounting Arkham of course), with horrible safety and security procedures and it’s a wonder they kept the Toyman in there as long as they did*

kudos for casting Henry Czerny as Winn’s dad, he actually looks like he could be Winn’s dad

Winn already looks distracted and sad in his first scene, trying to figure out what the special toy delivery means.

*insert mini rant that Agent Chase is actually pretty incompetent as an Agent and that’s a crying shame*

Winn and Kara’s whole relationship in this episode is about not wanting to change something good. Winn didn’t tell her about his dad because he didn’t want her to pity him

“He wasn’t always crazy, in fact he was a good dad - he was normal.” This is one of the things that causes Winn so much pain, thinking his dad was fine and then just completely snapped without warning, that this could happen to Winn too. I need to point out that Winn is probably wrong, as everything we see about Winslow points directly to a history of emotional abuse and manipulation. I don’t think he was ever actually a good dad. This explains why Winn never sees it when his friends/others emotionally manipulate him now, as James, Mon-el, Alex, Kara, and Lyra have all done at least once. #too loving and forgiving and easily manipulated for his own good

All of the things Winn says describing his dad are things that Winn faces too, hence his fear of becoming like him. #protect him

“You have a homicidal maniac in the family too, so you know where I’m coming from.” #self-deprecating smile

Immediately confesses about the toy as soon as he talks to Kara. (Thank you Kara, yes good) #hero

Talking into the wire. #NERD (I can’t use that every time, just - he is a nerd.)

Wouldn’t confront his father without Kara’s support. #protect him

Creepy place, but makes me think about the time Winslow must have spent there with his son, playing games, and winning toys. Kudos for the sign that says “one way” pointing the other direction as Winn is walking in.

Immediately tells his dad to turn himself in. #hero

After everything, even hating his dad, Winn just wants to help him in the best way possible. #the most empathetic character on television

Feds burst in and Winn just wants to stop anyone from getting hurt. #hero

Kara’s really good in this episode, being a true BFF, have to put that out there. Regardless of their relationship particulars, she is very much the best thing that has happened to him. #supportive friend (Kara edition)

Crossing his arms defensively while talking to Agent Chase, but immediately relaxing his posture when talking to Kara.

Also: “Are you sure you’re alright?” #supportive friend #the most empathetic character on television

Kara’s “I don’t normally...inhale” may be the best line in the entirety of this show??? XD

#DoesNotWantToBreakTheLawRevisited

Kudos to Jeremy Jordan for taking the extremely melodramatic line “this is my burden” and making it work.

Making corny jokes to get Kara to laugh when he’s the one who needs to be cheered up. #supportive friend

Figures out where his dad is, but despite not wanting to involve Kara, doesn’t do anything stupid, and instead waits to tell her so she, the superhero, can take care of it. #genius

Aside: Winslow Schott Sr is completely cracked like wow

Mad at himself for endangering Kara and immediately wants to call the feds. #priorities

“Well then what’s to stop it from happening to me?!” is so awful ouch. Also, Kara trying to console him and ending up saying exactly the wrong thing. Sucker. Punched. #protect him

This. Whole. Scene. Hurts. Too. Dang. Much. To. Talk. About.

I want to point out that the whole terrible kiss is not completely and only Winn’s fault. Yes, he kissed her. Yes, that was wrong. But he has been in no way subtle about his feelings for her, including: asking her out, telling her she’s what he’s grateful for, saying “this is why you’re not into me” right before finding out she was Supergirl, that little peck on the cheek, Kara saying things like “we’re linked too” and “I would be lost without you” and etc when he is in an extremely fragile emotional state. Yeah. Poor kids.

At once - AT ONCE - apologizes, and excuses himself and honestly with emotions that high, that’s the very best thing he could have done.

THE POOR BOY. #pROTECT HIM

HIS DAD WAS LYING IN WAIT. LIKE. HECK. NO.

The whole scene between the two Schotts. Winslow pretending he cares even while he has his son drugged and tied to a chair. Nobody stole anything from Winn and his father except his father himself. #protect him

The conflicting fear and rage in Winn though. *flops*

UM I NEVER NOTICED BEFORE BECAUSE I JUST ASSUMED THEY WERE ZIP TIES BUT WINN IS TIED TO THAT CHAIR BY THE TOYMAN’S MURDER YOYO

“How did this happen to you” may be the most important question Winn has ever asked of anyone in his life, to understand how his dad could become this and if he might become it too, and his dad completely ignores him and doesn’t answer.

Winn: “I am nothing like you.” Winslow: “Don’t underestimate yourself.” That’s it. I’m dead.

The panic on his face as he looks at Dunholtz, his target, and the steely resolve that comes when he looks at a child, someone who will be hurt if he doesn’t go through with this.

And even then. Even then. Winn can’t bring himself to actually hurt someone. #hero

I still am not sure if he says “I’m sorry” to Dunholtz for going to shoot him, or if he says it for the entire room, because he can’t go through with the awful deed and it’s going to kill them all. #the most empathetic character on television

Even after all that stuff Winslow said, he very calmly and coolly activates the bombs that will kill everyone, including the son he pretends to care about, because it really is still all about himself, and about his revenge. #NOT COOL WINSLOW

Apologizes to Kara again and comes clean about it all finally, it’s out in the open. Good.

That sigh at the end. He’s so upset, but there’s also relief. He doesn’t have to hide anything anymore. Now whatever happens, happens. *hugs him*

Last thing: this line gets me every time, and I know it doesn’t mean a thing, but it’s there, it happened. Kara telling Alex: “I screwed up with Winn. I might have ruined something and I don’t know if I can fix it.” Fix it, kids, please. Because Kara and Winn as brotp or otp is life.

This is the longest episode breakdown of this post. You’re welcome??

And that’s all for Part 1 of the masterpost. Tumblr hates how long this has gotten, so I guess I’m going to make a Part 2 for the last half of the season. This line here will turn into a link once I have that post started.

#winn schott - he protects the stars #ragamusings #rags watches tv #winn schott #appreciation post #superglue #jeremy jordan #supergirl

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those70scomics · 7 years ago

Note

i hate people keeps saying hyde only loved jackie when he was in love with donna for good part of season 1. he clearly loved her deeply and probably still does until season 5 (he even casually offered to sleep with her in season 4). in season 1 he fell for his girlfriend chrissy, in season 4 he had feelings for the cute black girl and he had feelings for his wife (they were married!). it's selfish of JH shippers to say the only woman hyde ever loved is jackie.

i hate people keeps saying hyde only loved jackie when hewas in love with donna for good part of season 1.

I’m going to analyze this assertion from a fact-basedstandpoint, using evidence from the show.

Hyde has held onto a picture of her from middle school foryears where her bra strap is visible. He explicitly tells Donna in “First Date”(1x16) that he has “feelings” for her. He asks Donna why she has “a thing” forEric in “That Disco Episode (1x07), and he pursues her relentlessly throughoutmuch of the season.

It’s the nature of that pursuit, however, that makes Hyde atroubling character in season 1 and reveals his original purpose on the show:to be Eric’s villainous foil and illustrate how much better a person Eric is –in general and for Donna – in comparison to him. While Hyde is definitelyshown to have romantic feelings for and sexual attraction toward Donna inseason 1, labeling it love or as him being in love isproblematic. What he experiences is a sense of possession over and/orentitlement to Donna. As will become evident in the discussion below. The Eric/Donna/Hyde triangle isn’t actually a triangle. From “That ‘70s Pilot”(1x01) and all the subsequent episodes of season 1, Donna’s romantic feelingsfor Eric are explicitly stated and demonstrated. “You could’ve had me when wewere four,” she tells Eric early in the pilot and kisses him on the lips by theend of it. She also implicitly (subtextually) demonstrates her romanticfeelings for Eric.

She never, however, demonstrates – explicitly or implicitly– that she has romantic feelings for Hyde. In fact, the opposite is true. In“Eric’s Buddy,” Hyde puts his hand on Donna’s thigh. She tells him to “Moveyour hand.” She means, “Remove your hand,” but her imprecision inspireshim to rub her leg up and down instead. She grasps his hand and shoves it offher, clearly not welcoming or enjoying the physical contact. After Hyde hits on her in “Ski Trip” (1x13), she tells him, “I’m up here with Eric, alright Eric, get it?Not you!”

A true romantic triangle requires the person in the middle have romanticfeelings for both suitors. Donna does not. She has romantic feelings for onlyEric. And this is where the problem lies. Hyde ignores what she wants. She tells andshows him repeatedly that she doesn’t share his romantic interest. He continuesto pursue her. He forces a kiss on her in “Ski Trip” after she tells him tostop hitting on her. She shoves him off her during the kiss and slaps him.

But he still doesn’t get the message or care about her desires. Heessentially stalks her in “First Date” and attempts to stop Eric from givingher his class ring and making their relationship official. Once Eric does give Donna his class ring, however, that is finally enough to get Hyde to stop pursuing her and invading her boundaries, but thedamage has been done.

What Hyde demonstrates in season 1 is not love for Donna butselfishness. His own feelings are the only ones that matter, not hers. Love isacceptance and compromise. It’s giving to another for that purpose only: togive. Love often entails making sacrifices. It can also mean letting the personone loves go if it means s/he’ll be happy.Hyde begins demonstrates these qualities of (romantic) love only withJackie.

With Donna, Hyde’s “love” is ignoring what she wants to get what hewants. Invading her boundaries. Trying to disrupt her happiness with Eric.

[Hyde] clearly loved [Donna] deeply and probably still does untilseason 5 (he even casually offered to sleep with her in season 4).

What Hyde demonstrates during seasons 1-8 is platonic love for Donna.Not romantic love. He supports her relationship with Eric unconditionally. Hehelps them out when they have problems (may episodes throughout seasons 2-7).

Saying “he even casually offered to sleep with [Donna]” is an imprecisedescription of what actually happens in “The Relapse” (4x106). His comment mustbe taken within the context of Donna’s story arc, the episode, and the scene inwhich that line takes place.

Donna is grieving the end of her parents’ marriage and the absence ofher mother. She’s so desperate for distraction from her pain that she has sexwith her ex-boyfriend, Eric. She’s in the midst of trying to eat away herfeelings (literally eat; she gobbles down all the food she can), but it’s obviously not working. That’s when she initiates sexualcontact with Eric.

Eric, meanwhile, is heartbroken over his breakup with her. Because ofhow much trust Donna needs in Eric to have sex with him during theirrelationship, he falsely believes having sex with her in this episode meansthey’re back together. He doesn’t take into account the fact that she’s inmourning. He’s thinking of only his own grief.

Later in the episode, Hyde informs Donna that Eric believes he and Donnaare “back together”. Hyde tells her this as a friend to both of them, to makesure they clear this up before either of them gets even more hurt.

Donna, though, admits that, “I would have done it [had sex] withanybody.”

Hyde recognizes her pain, and hisgo-to-place in tense moments is to try to lighten the mood. We see him do thiswith Eric’s parents a lot, with Eric in “Eric’s False Alarm” (4x25), and he doesthe same with Jackie in “Black Dog” (5x09). So he says to Donna, “Anybody?Damn, and I was just over there watching stupid Donahue. Hey, let’s doit right now.” He’s teasing her, trying to get a laugh out of her. When it doesn’t work, heshifts out of his normal make-jokes mode and gives her the sympathy she needs.He says, “Yeah, I’m just kidding about the do it stuff. I’m sorry aboutyour mom.” He puts his arm around her, giving her platonic, physical (not sexual)comfort, too. Like siblings would do.

He silently holds her for a very long time. It’s not something we’ve seenhim do before, and considering his childhood, it’s probably not something he’sexperienced himself. He can tolerate only so much of it before his discomfortbecomes unbearable, and he falls back into his defense mechanism of makingjokes.

“Seriously, let’s do it right now,” he says. That’s his way of makinghimself feel comfortable and, perhaps, of ending this very (platonically)intimate moment between him and another person. Hyde is someone who doesn’tdeal with emotion well, largely because he’s been through what Donna’s goingthrough during season 4. After season 1, he often tries to hide his feelingsfrom himself and the world, and empathizing with Donna’s grief takes an emotionaltoll.

in season 1 he fell for his girlfriend chrissy

Chrissy is not Hyde’sgirlfriend in “Punk Chick” (1x22). He knows her for twenty-four hours at most. They meet each other for the first time in the early evening. He sleeps with her twice,and she asks him to go to New York with her. The next day, he tells her hecan’t go with her. By the end of the episode, he and his friends spot herdriving off on her Vespa with another guy on the back of it.

The episode shows no evidence that Hyde falls in love with Chrissy. He fallsin love with the idea of leaving his awful childhood (and mother) behind andgoing to New York and maybe meeting one of his rock idols, Lou Reed.

in season 4 he had feelings for the cute black girl

Yes, Melissa is verycute (and smart) and had a lot of potential as a character. But Hyde knows herfor all of an hour. They don’t have a relationship. They have an awkward,uncomfortable time together at the get-Hyde-a-girlfriend party. He’s clearly physically attracted to her from the start, butlove? That would take a lot longer than an hour of awkwardness to develop.

and he had feelings for his wife (they were married!).

Hyde marrying Samin season 8 is entirely out of character, and it’s not something he wouldactually do. The new showrunners hired for season 8 stated in an interview (TVGuide, I believe) that they hated Jackie and Hyde together and neverunderstood their romantic relationship. So they were putting an end to it. How?By marrying Hyde off to a new character.

In order to view Hyde’s marriage to Sam as legitimate, one must ignoreHyde’s long-established characterization and storylines from “Prom Night” (1x19) to the season7 finale. None of what happens in season 8, however, is legitimate. Even DavidTrainer, That ‘70s Show’s director for the whole series, save the pilot,called season 8 an “alternate universe” and “one of many possible futures” forthe characters.

it’s selfish of JH shippers to say the only woman hyde everloved is jackie.

J/H shippers don’t say that Jackie is the only woman Hydeever loved. Perhaps many of us say that she’s the only woman he is ever properly inlove with.

I can speak only for myself, but selfishness has nothing todo with my views about Jackie and Hyde. I analyze and interpret Hyde and Jackiebased on their actions on the show, within the context of the whole series,and I take into account the writing. What were the writers’ intentions with aparticular story arc? Does conflict arise organically from who the characters are,or are the characters manipulated against their natures to manufactureconflict?

You clearly don’t like Jackie’s character and/or don’t likeJackie and Hyde together. That’s your right. But calling or viewing other people as selfish for not sharing your opinion isnot beneficial to you or anyone else.

#That 70s Show #That '70s Show #Jackie x Hyde #Steven Hyde #Donna Pinciotti #Ask #Anon #My Meta #My Essay #Special

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