#this is like the debate of if jon is a targ or not like that shit blew up when it happened

[ladystoneboobs]

no of fence to jon snow fans who for some reason care about his exact age, but these discussions just annoy me no end. not only bc there's no way any weirwood flashbacks bran has to rhaegar/lyanna will come with time/datestamps, but also bc there's always comments like this:

SEVERAL turns of the moon (ie, months)?! have these people never seen a human baby before or just have no concept of their ages? even if we take into account travel time from the toj to wf, meaning jon was not a newborn too fresh out the oven when catelyn and robb arrived, there's still a difference between a newborn and a 3mo and an even bigger difference between those infants and an older baby 5-7mo. there's very good reasons these lines were cut. whatever birthdates can be worked out internally for jon and robb from when they're first mentioned as 15 and 16 don't matter in the end, bc grrm doesn't care about a consistent timeline and the actual text of catelyn's pov and ned's convo with robert about cheating on her should outweigh any guesstimates about jon's official nameday wrt robb's. catelyn may not have cared for jon, but she would sure as hell have noticed his nameday if it came before robb's and made him ned's firstborn. if jon's birthday canonically came before robb's then either ned's cover story would not involve adultery (not impossible for him to sire a bastard before his wedding), or he'd just give jon a new nameday along with his new name to fit the adultery lie. it makes no sense for him to lie about one and not the other, undermining the big lie with a little public clue of his story not adding up. whatever else she was as a stepmother, cat wasn't stupid and a bastard who was actually the eldest son being raised alongside her trueborn heir could be an even bigger insult than whether he was born of adultery or not.

BUT, the unknowability of jon's true birthday is not the only reason this annoys me, it's bc this is all based on the assumption that jon must be older since rhaegar/lyanna ran off together before ned married cat, as if both boys must have been conceived asap as robb canonically was when his parents consummated their marriage. and that's not how human reproduction works! even if you don't understand how fast babies grow in the first year, you should know that people who get pregnant do so through ovulation cycles and a lucky sperm finding an egg and all that, not just immediately getting knocked up as soon as one has p-in-v sex for the first time. not unless you only know mean girls sex ed where if you have sex you will get pregnant and die. (even tho lyanna did die, there's plenty of canon examples where pregnancy did not lead straight to death. also examples of people who did not get pregnant right away and even some who are/were sexually active and childless without always having moon tea on hand.) we can't know how long lyanna was having sex before that sperm+egg match happened or even how long she was with rhaegar before losing her technical virginity. if they were married, doesn't it make sense to think they didn't consummate their relationship until the wedding night either? that's the only leverage there is to ensure a status as wife rather than just mistress.

and while i just said grrm doesn't care about exact timelines and a lot is still foggy surrounding the rebellion and esp rhaegar, there is one timemarker wrt robert's rebellion he voluntarily threw in, time and time again: that stannis was besieged at storm's end for almost a whole year. that siege, which mind you, did not match the duration of the entire war. it only started after robert won his battles at gulltown and summerhall, returned to storm's end, and then went out and lost the battle of ashford, leaving his homeland open to the reachermen. the same siege which only ended when ned made a detour there after the sack of king's landing, before going to the toj. even if lyanna may not have given birth that exact day ned found her, she could only be waiting in that bloody bed for weeks at the most, not months. so if rhaegar knocked her up the very same night he carried her off and jon was still a newborn when ned found her after the siege of storm's end had ended, wouldn't that mean lyanna was pregnant for well over a year? that's not how human pregnancy works either! so, maybe that's proof that jon and robb, whichever order they were actually born in, were actually very close in age as babies, much closer than if they were both conceived asap.

and really, jon's actual birthdate does not matter imho, when he was raised not just as the bastard to robb's trueborn heir, but with robb also known by catelyn and the world as ned's firstborn (which he was, in any case, as jon was ned's nephew by birth). what difference could a birthdate before robb's make (even were there some means of discovery) after ned, cat, and robb are all dead? if one is looking only at his birth parents then he's only a firstborn child on lyanna's side, but definitely a second son on rhaegar's side. maybe he was always meant to be a second son with a not much older half-brother! even if the aegon fka young griff is not in fact rhaegar's son, he'll still be known as aegon vi targaryen, meaning jon will never be known as any father's elder son. if i may reference mean girls again, it's not going to happen.

[isefyres-archive]

what i hate is that the upcoming season of hotd is gonna rise. . .tensions and some perhaps unsavoury comments. this is why i'm very picky with who i roleplay the dance era. i feel it's too nuisance and in my opinion, only 10% of that book could be consider canon considering the multiple narrators, the unreliable of it all and the fact it's written years after what happened.

y'all hot.d muses scare me mostly because i do see that people are passionate about where they characters are right or wrong (and bare in mind i do have a pretty clean cut opinion on the matter, by a simple matter of law and how it worked on a medieval landscape while keeping in mind this is a fantasy show).

it's like we are forgetting this is ASOIAF, and barely anyone remains good and those who do, suffer and are changed for it. god forbid a character like jaime existed in that timeline because you would all chew one another over if he good or bad (he is a third secret thing, a grey character! with layers and growth and flaws!)

all of this ramble to say that if i see too much negativity on either side, i will be softblocking. i have already seen some takes that make me uncomfortable so pleas,e be mindful, remember to tag things properly, spoilers as such, opinions as opinions, negativity as negativity and so on.

and this is a decision i made based on my own comfort. i haven't rped like this and felt so comfortable in a fandom in a long time, but seeing the opinions (and it's not like the opinions are nuisance and layers, they are biased) on my dash really do make me not want to log in. so i hope you all understand. you can have your opinions, but tag all properly, specially in such a show that stirrs so many emotions.

[catofoldstones]

the ashford theory with j0n or aegon just means it signifies sansa's suitors and it ties into political marriage with what we see with the north heir crisis could have a j0nsa marriage betrothal but then again like the other suitors it might not even be endgame just something that happens as a plot point, its the fans resisting the idea of it so much but not with other characters ,when j0nsa could make perfect sense for the north heir crisis plot makes me laugh a bit and now the same fans say his targ heritage doesnt matter but they were so keen on it with others d@ny's hypothetical marriage to him , his targ/lyann@ heritage reveal is important to the plot maybe not to his personal motives (unless he goes nuts and demands the north by right as robb's heir) but its going to affect the plot whether they like it or not, j0nsa hypothetical match being so furiously debated feels like sore losing

You’re so correct, anon. It’s mostly because Sansa isn’t a fan favourite, and even with most people who do like her, they don’t want her to end up with anyone because of her general history with men (which is sort of understandable). But suddenly saying that Jon’s Targaryen heritage doesn’t matter just to argue against a ship is buck wild. I genuinely want to study the people who said this like rats in a lab.

[rise-my-angel]

those targ stans comparing Rhaenyra's strong boys to Jon are the absolute worst

Like, on one hand, I do see why people defend them. It wasn't their fault they were born to such unfavourable circumstances. Its not easy to grow up being conflicted about who you really are, and as much as Rhaenyra loves them, its clear she does not prioritize them over herself.

But theres more problems then that. The biggest point against them is the incident with Aemond. First of all, I don't condone the actions of Aemond when grown up since he is certainly unhinged, but here he was what? 10? 12? Somewhere around that age, and he felt he needed to claim Vhagar, the biggest dragon, after her riders death because that was the only way he felt he had to prove his worth in this family. For kids who are not sure if they were bastards, the Strong boys have never indicated once that they felt that desperate to prove something for their place in a family. Aemond telling his mother that him losing an eye is alright because he "gained a dragon" is heartbreaking. He thought losing his eye to claim a dragon was the only way to prove himself. When have the Strong boys ever indicated they felt that desperate?

Secondly is the attack itself. Aemond was alone and ganged up on. He was attacked by multiple people at once whom clearly brought items to attack him with, and him calling them bastards should not have illicted that violent of a responce. It is NOT normal to wound someone so bad they lose an eye during a fight between young boys.

Without knowing Myachs face yet, Robert phrased it best when the worst that happened was Joffery got bit in the arm by a wolf the size of a dog. "Damn it, children fight. It's over." But Cersei escalates this by propgating Jofferys lies and publically paints Arya out to be a wild animal. And we all knew then that Joffery was in the wrong in a much less serious situation (unless your Myach).

But here, the wounded child, was the one the other kids attacked themselves, and then allowed their mother to take charge and demand he be tortured. She accuses Aemond of starting a fight they know they instigated, and then allowed their mother to demand torture for a boy saying something that was already a rumour.

We all look at the adults in that situation but the Strong Boys mutilated Aemond and then allowed their mother to lie about what happened and demand torture for something he merely said in anger.

Now part of the issue is that Jace and Luke especially have essentially, no real individual character. Much like Baela and Rhaena's lack of character development, they are mostly a duo who dont stand on their own. Season 2 will change that for Jace obviously, but all we have seen of the boys in the most prominent scenes with them is a willingness to use aggression and allow their mother to violently lie for them to cover up their own wrongdoings.

Other then being bastards, the Strong Boys have literally no comparison to Jon Snow. They were called and raised as highborns. Those boys were literally involved in inheritance debates. They have massive privileges every other highborn does.

Jon grew up a known bastard and that literally dictated his entire life as lesser then the siblings he grew up with. He is nothing like them because he fought for everything he has and it's still nothing compared to what those boys were given for absolutely nothing.

Also, Jon never cut another boys eye out in a fight when they called him a bastard. Literally the first time we see him get that violent is trying to stab Ser Alliser, and that was for insulting his fathers honour after said father was arrested for a treason Jon knows is likely untrue.

Jace hopefully will have better development this season, but as it stands, he and Luke both were the kinds of people who wouldve spat down on the likes of Jon Snow.

And those bad traits come from where else but Rhaenyra herself. I don't support shitting on them because theyre bastards but most people who don't like Team Black get painted as bastardphobic regardless. Its a weak argument to disavow giving by looking at real critiques, and just going "oh youre just supporting treating bastards badly why should i listen to you"

As if people like me literally aren't massive Jon Snow defenders, who support Jon staying a Snow and being proud of who he is rather then him feeling like he needs a truename to be of value.

I mean people get angry just seeing them being called the Strong boys. Like use your eyes, people. They look just fucking like Harwin theres not a single drop of Laenor anywhere near those kids apperances.

I'm not trying to just diss the Strong boys, unlike what some fans will paint any criticisms as. Its all just really messy. You just cannot discuss them without Team Black throwing a tantrum.

[agentrouka-blog]

The Pact of Ice and Fire is some really damning evidence when it comes to Jonsa. I got into an argument with someone on a forum about it because she disputed that it could just as easily be fulfilled by Jon (a Stark) and D/aenerys (a Targ). Except Jon is the Targ fostered at Winterfell... which seems much more damning to me evidence-wise; we learn about the pact, but more meaningfully it's already been partly fulfilled (leaving the open question of how it might be further developed) and in addition to that acts as foreshadowing for Jon's parentage. It's actually very elegant.

But you know what's most damning to me about it? Why would GRRM invoke 'ice and fire' in this pact - his series namesake, the prophecy for which R/haegar felt called to? It's special, and it might not be saving-the-world special (not GRRM's style - this was what my friendly rival invoked, that it could only be J/D because they'll save the world, i.e. the heroic song of ice and fire), but it's so special it foreshadows two major revelations in the story. About love and the human heart in conflict with itself and unfulfilled political promises. I mean, you could even make the argument that this foreshadows a bit of the dragon dispute - if the Starks have already made alliance with one 'dragon' (Jon) and the rest of Westeros with another (Aegon), what's left for D/aenerys?

Interesting, interesting, all very interesting; a fascinating piece of evidence to be sure. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the J/D take, though not to formulate my argument for me - this argument is both long past and also the one thing I used to hate in anon asks from people was being used to make their arguments (I would literally be contacted mid-Discord debate hahahah) - mostly just curious as to what you think about all those conflicting Snow/Stark/Targ elements - perhaps J/D itself if you feel like it - and the Pact. Love to hear your thoughts.

Something that is often overlooked is that Rhaegar dedicates the "Song of Ice and Fire" to his son Aegon. The son by Elia. The sun's son. His intended heir.

Because to Rhaegar the prophecy was about some kind of epic confrontation between a fire-coded hero and a presumably ice-coded enemy. The imagery and wording of Azor Ahai and his more explicit fire-ice/light-dark/good-evil dichotomies is so similar that we can reasonably assume that this Promised Prince is supposed to be Fire and the Song is supposed to be an epic fight with Ice.

We can't be sure what the motivation of Cregan and Jace would have been in naming their Pact in this way, though it's likely to be different and more representative of their respective elemental symbolism. Emphasizing a union and alliance between contrasting forces for a greater political good. (In their eyes.)

The structure of ice and fire as two opposing but equally destructive magical threats with mirroring arcs and magical conduits (Bran and Dany, actually) that is faced by all of humanity fuses both takes on the name. It's not fire good and ice bad, it's two extreme expressions of blood magic, with humanity banding together in the middle trying to survive.

Jon, as the product of ice and fire Houses, can't represent ice in a union with someone else's fire to create an alliance. He himself is already a mix of both, and his most significant political effect in the narrative has been to faciliate a crucial alliance between two former enemies. We can expect more along those lines. He is the fulfillment of the Pact, in a sense, (No thanks to Rhaegar, all thanks to the love of his mother, uncle and siblings) with only the minor political detail of that marriage to a Stark cousin still in question.

Dany, on the other hand, is fully identified with fire. She can't separate herself from that role to suddenly occupy a space separate from that elemental threat. She represents the threat. Or rather, if she separated from that power (like Bran will) she would cease to represent fire entirely.

If she is to be part of "ice and fire" it can only be in the role of an enemy to be defeated. If she ceases to be fire, she has no place in that equation, and she would be missing an icy counterpart. If GRRM had intended for Jon and Dany to represent ice and fire together, he would have never needed to bother with RLJ. Jon could be Ned's bastard "ice" son to Dany's "fire". But a significant aspect of his story is, specifically, the revelation that Jon is not, in fact, Ned's son. He is the son of a Stark maiden and a Targaryen prince, "hiding in the snow".

Jon and Dany occupy two very different spots in the "ice and fire metaphor continuum".

[esther-dot]

I’ve always found it odd that in s8 Sansa started wearing her hair more like d@ny. Like that bun braid she’s got going on in the promos & those two little braids that frame her face at the dragon pit. I can head-canon that she chose to wear her hair like that in king’s landing for the sake of the unsullied. Perception is everything & their leader wore her hair that way—a strong woman capable of commanding an army; an intimidating woman. Sansa likely felt she needed to project an intimidating level of strength if she had any hope of securing Jon’s release & the braids could’ve been a way to subtly influence their perception of her. Meant to recall images of their leader & paint her as someone to be feared.

As far as wearing her hair the way she did at the start of the season…the best I could come up with is that she was doing it for Jon. And while it’s an answer I can accept (be still my jonsa-heart!) it doesn’t feel quite satisfactory. I’m wondering if you’ve put down any thoughts on this & might have something more for us to consider? Or perhaps a head-canon you’d like to share?

I remember this debate and there’s even an article about it,

(link)

But the idea that Sansa was copying Dany never made much sense to me because Sansa starts wearing the hairstyle before she’s met Dany? I think that Sansa's hair was meant to be a Northern style, and worked with the association of Sansa & Lyanna the show created (link).

Here’s a pic and another post about it:

(link)

And then in s8, looking at the hairstyles, even though there are braids in both, it looks to me as if they attempted to keep them distinct. Look how soft and loose Dany's is in contrast to Sansa's. Also, Sansa has a bun while Dany's braid is like a crown sliding off her head (ba-dum-ch!)

Even when I look at “Sansa’s war braids” at the dragonpit,

It doesn’t make me see Dany at all. She susually had two curls down by her face, but that was to soften her look, whereas Sansa's braids have the opposite intention. My main thought is that it’s weird the girl who wasn’t fighting got the armor-ish dresses while the two who were out there with the army of the dead did not! This may have been an effort to give her a totally unique hairstyle from the Northern cast, in prep for Queen Sansa?

I think the Jonsa implications would be in the Lyanna connection and the NedCat cosplay from s6-7. The fact that the finale rested on Jon’s (Targ) love for Sansa (Stark girl) makes me think there was some story-related reasoning back in s5-7 that carried through to the end even if they didn't really wanna follow-through on the implication. Making Jon appear as Ned and Sansa as Cat (the hairstyles are similar, not exactly the same but the script referenced the Cat thing at one point so it was intentional) also feels like something that was still present in s8 storywise. They were a unit, they did trust each other, but there was a lot of anxiety about that trust and pain about a perceived betrayal.

And in-world reasoning, I’d say that when in the South Sansa was trying to fit in at court so mimicking to greater or lesser extent the fashion made sense, and when she returned home, it made sense for her to start wearing styles she’d worn or seen as a girl.

(link)

[horizon-verizon]

Every time I see a post about "King Jon" being the rightful ruler, it makes me root for Young Griff to be the real deal even more—just to shatter the whole fantasy of Jon being the “secret prince.” Jon is a bastard; he has no legitimate claim over either "Aegon" or Daenerys. Even if Young Griff was real, he still wouldn’t have a solid claim to the throne because Rhaegar was effectively disinherited when Aerys named Viserys as his heir. That leaves Daenerys (unfortunately for the haters) as the only legitimate Targaryen with a real claim. But despite this, people still twist the argument, saying things like, “Well, the Mad King could’ve disinherited Rhaegar and named Viserys heir, but Rhaegar’s son would still come before Daenerys.” It’s such a reach. Another take I can’t stand is“the king’s word doesn’t matter after he’s dead.” Aerys proclaimed Viserys as his heir while he was still alive. This is the same argument used against Rhaenyra’s claim...

Another take I can’t stand is“the king’s word doesn’t matter after he’s dead.” Aerys proclaimed Viserys as his heir while he was still alive. This is the same argument used against Rhaenyra’s claim…

Pre-LyannaxRhaegar running off, in AWoIaF, Yandel notes that tensions at court between Rhaegar and Aerys (and their factions) was similar to what was described for what existed b/t Rhaenyra and Alicent and their parties. This was deliberate on GRRM's part, yes, and I see people using this fact to make the case about how there would be more support for Jon or FAegon over Dany, as Rhaegar, no matter what, was the firstborn. Symbolism and foreshadowing and all that, third time the charm or whatever.

ONE, Duncan the brown-haired prince was also the firstborn of his set of siblings...he gave up the throne entirely to stay married to Jenny of Oldstones. The verbiage is "abdicated". The guy didn't just "give it up", Aegon V, his father, continued to not grant him the title of Prince of Dragonstone when Duncan continued to refuse to put Jenny aside. Before that, it's made clear Aegon didn't want him married to a "commoner", so Duncan's title was always up to Aegon's will. After he abdicated, he was called the "Prince of Dragonflies", instead as a sort of mock, but again, he lost/gave up the entire position and all its privileges and rights.

His kids/line would be totally removed from any rights to the throne. Aegon V didn't want that, and he capitulated, so then Duncan got to have the girl AND be still a prince. Even if Aegon had died, Duncan married a common girl who was "crazy" and listened to short suspicious woman she claimed was a child of the forest, any kids they could have had wouldn't be popular and there'd be debate over how "legitimate" or how much "real" appropriate "blood" they'd have possibly to have rights to the throne...similar to how real-life European nobles defined a "bastard" by how the parents didn't have matching-enough statuses and not necessarily just them being unmarried (pre-1300s). That and the easy accusation of witchery and magic in that kid's "blood" or practice. This is a headcanon of mine, but I also think it's a good speculation as it brings up Westerosi perspective of class and magic.

Perhaps this means more that Duncan's choice of woman would be more why his hypothetical kids with her wouldn't be accepted or very much supported more than the fact that Aegon V persisted in not allowing Duncan to continue not being his heir...but even though Lyanna was definitly a "fit" bride for a Targ prince in character or rank, even an heir...well I already note why it would work below. Rhaegar's conduct in "kidnapping" a lord's betrothed daughter, impregnating and "spoiling" her, puts that child of Rhaelya in a similar boat to Duncan and Jenny's child, and Lyanna is a "savage" northern girl who isn't as much of a "proper" lady, either.

You might argue why Elia's marriage to Rhaegar makes no question--hypothetically if their kids had been alloowed to live--as to their kids' right to the throne despite how nonDornish Westerosi view Dornish people. It's because their marriage was Faith and state-sanctioned and arranged through the "proper" channels. No independent will involved there at all setting up the marriage on the actual couple's parts.

When you add what I say below, Aerys II having refused to acknowledge Rhaegar and his line as his heirs when those heirs don't even really exist or be a part of the succession definitely tips the scales in Dany's favor. Not FAegon either (again, below), DANY. Rhaegar inadvertedly, in another ironic layer, paved Dany's way to the throne.

TWO, Let's talk about Rhaenyra & Dany. Like Rhaenyra, Dany has actually practiced rule and had dragons. The relevant differences, however, bt Dany and Rhaenyra is that:

Rhaenyra had oaths from most lords as arranged by her father to solidify their loyalties to her so that his word does matter that much more, so yeah Dany does have a comparative vulnerability

Rhaenyra's lived in Westeros all her life and further strengthened those ties later on in a tour (proximity), people know her and she even was very popular amongst both nobles and peasants enough to have her own moniker

Dany has all the dragons or is the ONLY party with dragons in any any confrontation she'd be in, whereas Rhaenyra had dragons...but her rivals & brothers/the greens also had dragons...so Dany is better off there

A monarch's word post death does matter, but it also loses its authority the more material power the living has or can use against their intentions. This is true. That does not mean that the monarch's word doesn't give an edge to further legitmize why one should rule, esp when that person has a certain disadvantage or has an identity that tradition doesn't grant the right or ability to inherit certain leaderships, like being a woman or being a bastard. As we saw what happened with Edward III's death and William the Conqueror's claim including that of all Edward's other sons. He claimed that he had been chosen...and just like Dany, William had the arms to back up that claim. Why bother, bc he was an illegitmate scion of a relative, so he had to use something even other than arms and soldiers to legitmize why his rule be accepted.

The other possible candidates vying for the throne? I explain below why FAegon and Jon has critical issues for their abilites to amass support for themselves, passively or actively.

THREE, one issue is that ALL three people are also "foreigners" in their own way. Dany and FAegon, obvious, they grew up in Essos and were most active in Essos. Jon maybe Westerosi, but he's not only a bastard but also way more Stark in expected/traditional behavior AND he is a northerner. King's Landing and the rest of Westeros are Faith/Seven-worshipping Andal descendants with a lot of suspicion and disdain for northeners, who have been called "savage" several times througout Westerosi history. You can find many examples in F&B! And Jon is likely never leaving Ghost behind to rule anything--we saw how "southrons" saw and treated the direworlves when all the Stark kids went down with them...what more a completely white, red-eyed magical animal? He may be the closest thing to a "real" Westerosi...but he's a tree-worshipper...and the Faith wouldn't want a king who wouldn't convert as their ruler. (Dany, idk if she'd even "officially" be of the Faith I can't even see that for her, but neither do I really see her ruling Westeros nor do I see jon or FAegon doing this either bc of the possible results from the Long Night).

Not only that, he's Commander of the Night's Watch, a post most people find useless down south. Dany might be a foreign queen who devotes herself "too much" to freeing slaves as Jon works to provide shelter to the "savage" freefolk, but she has ruled as something closer to the position of a monarch they are familair with and respect. Over real (or believed-in) things and people. An entire city and not "just" a penal colony. And as to Jon, the entire Wall is understood as an unnecesaary drain of resources on the rest of the real bc it's up against creatures of fairytales. (I don't mean that the freefolk are unreal to the rest of Westeros, the city and giants and Others are.) They could think that he didn't really do much other than freeze, as they don't think there'd be much comparatively much to do. Their mistake, but one that could very well determine their outlook of the two. Now, why would I mention experience mattering bt Dany and Jon in the eyes of Westerosi lords? Because they are looking for stability and quick stability after the recent wat and the burgeoning tensions the Lannisters have fostered.

Barring that, another issue is that Jon is and always will be a bastard because the Doctrine of Exceptionalism was about sibling marriage as a privilege of the Targs, NOT polygamy! We have no evidence whatosever that bk!Lyanna and Rhaegar even eloped! To get that Doctrine, Jaehaerys had to work hard (or devise how others would in his stead but he and his council picked the perfect people), it didn't come in a year of peaceful negotiations! It came after Maegor's decimation or severe reduction of the Faith's Militant AND Jaehaerys' later careful manupulations (and the appointment of an amicable new High Septon). There has always been an implied but obvious agreement that the Targs would never have polygamy as a royal privilege, as we see the Targs never have polygamous partners after Maegor I. (Not polyamourous, polygamous...very two different things). Likewise, Rhaegar would first have to win against Aerys and then mess with the Faith and have the rules bent for him if he ever wanted to take Lyanna as his legal second wife if he ever wanted to, or secretly married her or wanted to later...but he died way before all that.

With FAegon, the story is that the Aegon who was murdered alongside his mother & sister was literally an infant or a toddler (I foregt which) when he was killed...who is around to confirm the claim that he is who he says he is? He can only succeed if Varys manages to get rid of possible competition, destabilize the current government by subterfuge and secret blood, and/or have the peasants (who can be easily swayed if there's a promise of support and food) show support and seem like they'd get active or disobeident to their overlords and those overlord's vassals. Again, he was raised in Essos and even if he was the actual Aegon, no one with the appropriate credit (to my memory) is at hand to say he shares the exact features or enough as that baby...bc people don't look like their baby selves often. Unlike Viserys II, who was taken to Essos at 8 or so and came back in just a few short years, FAegon spent way too much time in Essos to be seen as none other than a foreigner AND there's no way to confirm his claimed identity. Nor does he even have dragons! Which all runs the risk of inspiring even more and longer dissent and chaos and division bc people (nobles) would be divided further into camps of following him to use him, those against those people and most trying to stay out of it bc they literally just got out of the War of Five Kings.

And you may be able to argue that some part of Aegon's issue is the same for Jon--who will confirm Jon's being Rhaegar's bastard through Lyanna? But that would be easier than for Jon bc Ned took Jon in and others can easily come to the conclusion that it'd be the honor-loving Ned Stark who wouldn't offer his own nephew up to even his king and best friend. A weird sort of kin-slaying some might say maybe, but idk.

Other than that, unlike Dany, Aegon was told to be dead...and this rando kid claims to be a dead baby. Dany, all the realm knew, fled Westeros as a baby with Viserys and a knight that though is not in the mortal coil anymore was also accompanied by a Pentoshi merchant at some point...everyone knows where she is and that Barristan Selmy is with her. Robert the wanted to have her and her brother killed when he took over and was angry when they got away. Later, Robert's council took the news of her existence and rise seriously and Robert wanted her dead, which means the entire realm knew about her, and obviously her awakening the dragons confirms who she is. The fact that she woke dragons up once again, even tou many at court at first and still don't believe that she has. She has the foreigner Essosi woman who leads a Dorthaki "savage" hoard thing against her, but she has the Valyrian look, the legitimacy, and the DRAGONS to prove her lineage and identity. And she has the firepower, literally, to assure a more guaranteed victory apart from her Dothraki fighters. She is a much more comfortable choice for nobles to fight or fight behind the scenes for.

So regardless of Aerys' disinheriting Rhaegar's line...she still has a very good chance of getting a lot of support and much more than either man, genuine or not. At least from here.

I am not saying that the Dance did not set a dangerous precedent for her either and that there's still a good chance of Jon passively and involuntarily inspiring people to call for his being named king enough to raise arms or at least try to take Dany out secretly to make room for him--not FAegon, bc that identity is just too much of a hangup for him. But to say she'd have very little to none supporting and wanting her to rule in comparison to these two is simply weird and misleading.

[tweedfrog]

What if Tywin died instead of Joanna?

Well several things change but firstly let's get this out of the way: I doubt someone who loved and was loved by Tywin and was taken into his confidences was a good person by any measure. I think Joanna could have certainly been better than Tywin but that's hardly a hard hurdle to clear.

I think it also depends when Tywin dies. Like before he has his kids? Before the whole rains of castamere situation?

Let's assume for the sake of the story that Tywin dies around where Joanna does in canon - right after the birth of Tyrion. Presumably the shock of having a son with dwarfism is so terrible to his ableist ass idk he falls down a flight of stairs.

- Jaime/Cersei have less of a chance to have a long relationship because Joanna is actively trying to keep them seperated. I think the twincest still happens but with far less frequency.

- Jaime ends up married to Elia which takes out basically the best marriage option for Rhaegar. Wether this would be a good thing for either party is debatable. I don't think Jaime would make anyone a very good husband and I doubt Elia is happy married to a kid who's like 8 years younger than she is. On the other hand she would wind up alive so success!

- Consequently it is possible Rhaegar ends up married to Cersei. Theres apparently no more girls left with a high enough status and (enough?) Targ blood because in canon we know Aerys considered Elia like a worst case scenario if Rhaegar didn't have a sister and if Steffons trip to Essos fell through. Maybe if Joanna uses Aerys weird fascination with her to push the marriage through?

- the debacle at Harrenhal still happens because i cant see Cersei having enough kids quickly enough to satisfy Rhaegar. Her children with Robert were fairly spaced out. I don't think Cersei would have been as miserable with Rhaegar as she was with Robert, because I don't think Rhaegar would physically abuse her but it wouldn't be the happy marriage she was envisioning. I also uh, don't see Cersei handling national humiliation with as much grace and equanimity as Elia did.

- now here would be the biggest divergence. Either Cersei fumes and shoves Lyanna down a well Melara Heatherspoon style or Joanna manages to control her daughter enough that this doesn't happen.

- If Lyanna manages to survive Cersei I think maybe it proceeds as canon did - so Lyanna dies in childbirth and Jon is passed off as Ned's son? Maybe since Ned's claiming of Jon seems to have fooled EVERYONE.

- Cersei obviously isn't brutally murdered by her own family for being Rhaegars widow but I could see her marrying Robert to legitimise Roberts reign. After that I think possibly the first daughter Cersei had with Rhaegar is married to her half brother (Cerseis child with Robert) to solidify Roberts line on the throne? Maybe if they can get away with the dyanstic incest? Idk how much people would be freaked out by a non targ engaging in incest.

- Cerseis other kids with Rhaegar are going to the faith sorry kids. I think the twincest still happens but I feel like Joanna would catch on after the first kid so it would be less Ned trying to crown Stannis and more Ned trying to crown a 5 yr old Baratheon!Tommen.

- I think Tyrion definitley doesn't wind up as abused as he was by Tywin (definitley no Tysha scenario here) but it's not a bed of roses. I think he would face quite serious emotional abuse by Joanna too. He probably also ends up in the faith with the whole "look after your half targ nephews/neices and don't shame us" thing.

Tl:dr Joanna has many of the same political aims as Tywin but executes them with more finesse because she isn't a sexual sadist

[alaynestcnes]

Thanks for the answer and the links, but I have already seen and even read some of it. I am now even more convinced that Kit and Sophie’s chemistry did a trick on you guys and made you assume there is something there, otherwise you’d be crushed by post s8 grief. You were asking yourself, “it all had to be for a reason, right?” when the ship crashed and burnt in the show, so to save yourself from disappointment you had to create an intricate version of got where they could be together. This version is not in George’s books, unfortunately.

I feel like you’re projecting. Most Jonsa’s really didn’t find the show ending that disappointing from a shipping perspective…but I know one group of people who took it like a bullet to the head. Just saying.

Anyway, let me guess, your idea for GRRM’s intended ending is Targ restoration with Jon on the IT and Sansa married to Tyrion or Sandor or some other random man as Lady of the Eyrie or Riverrun or some other location that gets her out of the way and has no connection to her broader arc. A flat, boring ending for everyone that complies with none of the broader themes of ASOIAF.

Like idk what version of ASOIAF you have been reading but book Jonsa is exactly everything GRRM has ever been about. It’s ‘the heart in conflict with itself’, it centres Jon’s struggles with belonging as a Stark, Sansa coming full circle confronting social prejudices and her old desires, it fulfils the individual desires they held at the start of AGOT in an unpredictable way (which I believe is GRRM’s intent with all the main charas), it fulfils the themes of King/Queenship and rebuilding Winterfell that both Jon and Sansa share, it takes two ‘good’ characters and puts them in a very morally grey situation that tests all their ingrained ideologies, and it concludes the almost perfect symmetry of their stories. It makes sense politically in canon and thematically in the narrative. It’s an almost fairytale that is just twisted enough to be unthinkable to most readers. In short, it has GRRM written all over it.

I know you antis love to believe Jonsa’s popped into existence from the big bang that was the Kit/Sophie chemistry and we just exist in our little silo, oblivious to the rest of the fandom. Sadly (for you), this isn’t the case. Kit and Sophie are cute and all but let’s be fr, you and I would not be here debating Jonsa over five years later if either of us thought that random chemistry between two actors was all there was to it. The clues in the books had people discussing Jonsa wayyy before Kit and Sophie ever shared a scene. Personally, I like to think I’ve read a wide range of theories coming from all different angles. Jonsa is not my defining, limited interest in ASOIAF (shocking, I know). I’m just as keen to know what happens to everyone else, or what other potential ends for Jon and Sansa other people foresee. The endless amount of ways people have pieced together the puzzle GRRM has given us is one of my fave things about this fandom. It’s just a result of that broader reading that I’ve found that, personally, no other ending for Jon and Sansa actually works as well as the potential endings I’ve seen from Jonsas.

The foreshadowing of ruling Winterfell and parenthood/marriage is so dominate in both their stories, yet most people will dismiss these themes in either Jon or Sansa’s stories in order to make an ending for one work. Without Jonsa, the conclusion is that only one can have that foreshadowing satisfyingly fulfilled, and for the other that same foreshadowing is just pointless and not to be discussed. I don’t know why it’s so frowned upon to say, wait, what if there was a way for them both to fulfil that foreshadowing and reach the natural satisfying conclusion both their stories individually demand? But no, of course not, they’re siblings and that would be icky. But hold on! What if there was a secret that had been harboured for years that just might make it possible? Well, wouldn’t that be creative, well-thought out and unprecedented storytelling…but nooo you’re right, GRRM would never play around with yucky things like pseudo incest. That version is not in George’s books, unfortunately 🤡

[janiedean]

I read your metas on why you think GRRM always meant for Bran to be KITN, not King of the 7K as per what he told Benioff and Weiss during their decades-long intimate working relationship on the show adaptation and I have to say I disagree lol. I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.' I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

Jon's a chosen one deconstruction because once he finds out about his parentage, it's not going to be a good thing that gives him a renewed sense of self like in the thousands of other chosen one fantasy arcs. It will be a devastating revelation for him and cause a very negative identity crisis. Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son? Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

Also, Jon is not AA, it is Dany. The thing is.....that's not a good thing lol. The AA prophecy is basically prophesizing the coming of Khal Stalin, not a savior lmao. That's the twist and the double edge sword with prophecies that is so very Martin. The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

I'm uuuuh, gonna try and reply to this as briefly as I can but like with the premise that everyone can agree or disagree with anything and text interpretation can't be set in stone until like the entire thing is over... in order

I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.'

anon I don't wanna sound rude but.... they lit set jon up to kill the night king and then made arya of all ppl do it NONSENSICALLY just to make ppl surprised, they literally shat all over the entire text since S2 if not S1 already, just the robb storyline shows they didn't understand anything about the point of the red wedding which they said they WANTED to adapt and they basically made shit up since s4 onwards without anything making literal sense including making c*rsei the ultimate boss when there is no shred of text evidence she's that important and grrm is pissed with the ending so like... I can 100% think that both of them didn't gaf about what grrm had to say and just understood what they wanted to, also because we're talking abt the ppl who made stannis go agamemnon on shireen because they hated his ass when if shireen dies like that no way it's stannis ordering it by any shred of textual sense so I absolutely will say dnd didn't gaf about what grrm said and threw their legacy in the trash, that because.... everyone thought the finale was trash and they haven't had a gig like that since bc no one wants them after got, with good reason, so like ppl can say that because there is nothing dnd have done as showrunners that shows they gaf about the og text, end of story

I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

except the jc endgame is obviously not the book endgame, lit no one's endgame except imvho jon's (hahaha) and possibly tyrion/davos is the actual book endgame and I'd like everyone to remember there's no shred of textual evidence rickon doesn't die in the books but anyway like... sorry but dnd not wanting to put jon on the IT for shock value (which is obvious since everyone expected it) and not giving bran kitn to give it to sansa so ppl who wanted her to be queen would be happy makes absolute sense to me, also like... again I'm not gonna go over it again bc you said you read the meta but: bran is a deconstructed version of a kingly arthurian archetype which by himself means that he has to become king while being disabled/in virtue of having lost his legs so like sorry but bran being king is absolutely in the text but no way it makes sense it's 7k since he's directly tied to his land and its magic same as the fisher king so......

Jon's a chosen one deconstruction because once he finds out about his parentage, it's not going to be a good thing that gives him a renewed sense of self like in the thousands of other chosen one fantasy arcs. It will be a devastating revelation for him and cause a very negative identity crisis

I agree and I wrote a longass meta about jon being a chosen one deconstruction but being AA/his inheritance absolutely does not rule out it being a deconstruction imvho

Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son?

howland reed was there when he was born and lyanna could have told him and ned they were married, also bran can lit travel in time and prove it/see it happen, but even if he's not legitimate wrt rhaegar it doesn't matter because in the book he's legitimate wrt robb's will so he's gonna get kitn title at some point even just for that but like... point is if howland reed corroborates it and he gets a pet dragon or smth and no one has reasons to disagree esp because they'll need to kill zombies whether r/l were married doesn't matter at all

Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

we can't know about wrt grrm publishing something else or not but again: howland reed knows and he's still around and kicking and there is no reason for people to not make it known especially when it comes out and they have to treat with dany, also the show conflated young griff with both jon and cersei and jon connington with jorah and daenerys which makes no sense whatsoever so like that argument holds zero water bc they didn't know what they were doing and it shows

Also, Jon is not AA, it is Dany. The thing is.....that's not a good thing lol. The AA prophecy is basically prophesizing the coming of Khal Stalin, not a savior lmao. That's the twist and the double edge sword with prophecies that is so very Martin.

anon the second maester aemon said on page AA is daenerys out loud it went out of the window, the way asoiaf prophecies are structured everyone who's rumored to be X by other people/themselves before it actually happens won't be that, and jon only ever was deemed a candidate by a vision melisandre had... which she immediately discarded bc she didn't understand what the hell her own god was telling her so sorry but I don't agree and it's not gonna happen

The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

anon I don't even disagree with all of this but:

i do not think that in any way shape or form jon is not AA - there is no way he's not, he's lit the only one who actually came back to life in the show if we wanna show truth and there's no other character who lit resurrected and no one else will so there's that, he died according to the prophecy and no one in text would ever put a cent on AA being him, like.,........ what we know is not what they do and for westeros jon snow is the least likely candidate soooo like sorry but I don't think it makes sense that anyone else is AA, you can think it's dany but idt there's a chance in hell

I think the evil is already there and it's zombies, like... ik the show made it look like the long night was nothing but it's the actual ultimate big bad so there's no need for AA to be another evil, rhaegar would have misunderstood the og prophecy well enough as it is without getting that far

jon being the chosen one and AA would still make his life hell

idt dany is written in the book as an authoritarian tyrant and idt it's where she's headed and I'm saying it as someone who doesn't gaf about dany and doesn't care either way but the show version was just ridiculous and nothing in the text says she's headed there whatsoever

I also agree this fandom cannibalizing itself over who is AA is ridiculous... because it's jon and there's no reason to further argue over that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

bran can absolutely be the best ruler for a broken realm,..... the north, which has been mauled and will be further mauled by the zombies, and it makes no sense he is 7k anyway given his background and stuff, again you can disagree with it as you want but idt anything that happened in the show except an extremely selected amount of things which are absolutely out of context has a chance in hell of happening in the books and from the way grrm reacted to the finale it seems obvious to me, then... again you can agree or disagree with me but I wrote so much meta on the topic I honestly feel like I'd be rehashing myself over and over if I went about it again but like

of course everyone believes in their own interpretation but there's no way I'm gonna be swayed by any argument agains kitn!bran and 7k!jon who then abdicates and goes to the wildlings by anything that's not grrm publishing ados and writing differently, godspeed and that's mvho ;)

[witchqueenvisenya]

i keep seeing s*nsa stans insisting that the Starks are the protagonists and the targs aren’t important lmao then why did grrm make 2 out of the key five characters targs? why did he write fire and blood? like Jon and dany are core protagonists in asoiaf, if the targs were irrelevant why would grrm focus so much on them? like George obviously loves the targaryens s*nsa stans are full of shit

yeah it's massively annoying to see them go on like this, because it kind of feels like this series has lost all meaning for the larger audience. it shouldn't be up for debate at all that two starks, one lannister, one targaryen, and one stark-targaryen are protagonists, and as grrm says, he loves all his characters, but it's clear that he loves the targaryens a fair amount since he keeps expanding on them, changing little bits of their history, has present asoiaf characters speak of their greatness (good or bad), and especially how entrenched the targaryens still are in westeros' psyche...like if they were irrelevant we wouldn't have so many mentions of historical targaryens and one of the last ones ruling city states at the age of fifteen like c'mon

[hewantshisbrideback]

Remember the tale I told you once about the gods? the old man asked. He was always talking about the past, about gods and heroes recorded in the poems and prayers of men, and so the boy could only shrug, Which ones?

A SONG OF LOVE FROM LONG AGO

[mkstrigidae]

This might be a lot since there’s so many characters in APWH, but could you share something secret about each character that no one else knows or maybe just a fun fact?

I am so sorry I’m answering this so late- I try not to be a human disaster, but inevitably end up being one most days.

Oooooooh this one is very interesting- they might not all be secrets, because for some characters, that would be giving away major plot points, but fun facts I can do! Let’s see what I’ve got (below the cut):

Robb: Has definitely licked a bone on a dare before, is actually a decent artist (much like Sansa) and does a fair amount of sketching in the field, and has an engagement ring for Tal in his work locker that no one knows about yet :) Inherited Catelyn’s ability for leadership, and is really good at dealing with Logistics, management, and the bureaucracy involved in his job. Hangs out with the experimental archeology students a lot (he’s like the accidental older brother for half the department) and would definitely wear handmade linen armor from someone’s project and let an undergrad shoot arrows at him to test it. (For those of you unaware, linen armor is next to impossible to cut without an extremely specific and sharp type of electric saw). Is good friends with Sarella, who’s going through grad school in Oldtown as well. Has been reluctantly dragged into the feud between the archaeology/anthropology and paleontology departments.

Aegon: is a fairly talented piano player, has always liked to cook, but got really good at it when he was dating an adjunct professor in grad school (none of his family knows about the relationship, but Theon does). Has been taking night classes recently to try and learn the Old Tongue bc he and Lyanna are particularly close. Dates casually, and volunteers at a community center for at-risk kids in Kings Landing on weekends. Is the only Targ sibling emotionally aware enough to spend time with Viserys, and is his grandmother Rhaella’s favorite.  

Rhae: Actually really likes listening to heavy metal, especially when she’s working, and is really into the Westerosi equivalent of late night comedy. Will get really invested in hobbies for like, a few months and then move on to something completely different. Is her grandfather Aerys’ favorite, and has him wrapped around her finger. Makes a game of antagonizing Viserys at Targ family functions, and has been inseparable from Margaery since they met in college. Thought her cousin Obara was the coolest person in the world when she was a kid. Most likely of all the characters to do a triathlon without breaking a nail.

Bran: Might be one sociology class away from identifying as an anarchist. Kind of wants to be a professor and will probably write novels someday. Is really into flea markets and will go antiquing with Ned and Elia and sometimes Cat. Loves kayaking and decorates his wheelchair elaborately for holidays. He’s won several costume contests at school for it. Very snarky. If Sansa had been raised by the starks, they would have had a standing Saturday lunch date to snark and gossip about the rest of the fam.

Jon: wanted to be a forest ranger for the longest time and then a writer, but felt like he had to choose a more reputable career, and is kind of jealous that Robb decided to say ‘fuck it’ and become an archaeologist. Really wants to travel, although he picked law after His Valyrian is passable (the targ sibs spoke it anytime they were with Rhaegar and fam), but he speaks Rhoynish fluently and is close to his cousins on the Martell side of the family. Really likes hiking and will often go with Cat, who is also fairly outdoorsy. Likes epic high fantasy novels and would really love LOTR.

Mya: is weirdly into dream interpretation, is bisexual, and has fallen into one of the canals in Braavos before on a school field trip. She was born in the Vale, and her mom moved to Braavos when she was five. Would definitely eat a bug on a dare. More tomboy than anything, but really enjoys getting dressed up and being feminine. Likes painting her nails fun colors. Who gives a shit about gender expectations? Not Mya.

Sansa: the first person she kisses in APWH isn’t going to be Jon…;) If she’d been raised by the Starks, she might have gone to school for journalism or become a novelist. Hates math, but is a passable accountant because of what Baelish taught her to help him with the books for his restaurants. Doesn’t like to ever wear her hair down, and has a collection of decorative bobby pins for updos that she’s acquired from flea markets in Braavos. Really loves to swim. Pushed the boy who knocked Mya into the canal in after her, but none of the teachers believe him when he accuses her, because it’s sweet, kind, well-behaved Sansa.

Robin: Secretly likes to listen to musicals and is a fairly good singer. In a group chat with Doree and Loree who are drastically improving his social skills and the three of them are parent-trap level plotting. Really dislikes doctors and hospitals. Used to ask Sansa to draw birds for him a lot when he was younger and still has most of them.

Rickon: is actually better with computers and smarter than anyone realizes, because he’s such a jock on the surface. Very used to going with the flow and adapting to change. His favorite classes are chemistry and bio, but he doesn’t really like writing. Is really popular and well-liked among his classmates, but can have a temper when he thinks an injustice is occurring. Is generally just good with animals.

Catelyn: Grew up going hunting with her uncle and always had a stronger stomach for it than Lysa and Edmure did. Is half-estranged from her father because of a disagreement they had regarding Catelyn’s inability to move on after the kidnapping, and a tense relationship with her brother after he married Roslyn Frey (The Freys were vocal supporters of Roose Bolton’s politics and had a hand in publicizing the rumors about the Starks being responsible for Sansa’s disappearance- Walder Frey owns several prominent southern newspapers), but they’re working on mending fences. Takes fairly long walks outside regularly, and would be a bruce springsteen fan. The most intimidating of the entire family.

Arya: Went through a true crime phase. Really enjoys learning languages, her favorite classes this past semester were her Ancient Ghiscari course and her global politics seminar, because they got to debate current issues every week. Like Sansa, she really likes people-watching. Will probably end up at the Olympics for fencing at some point, but was also a sprinter in high school on the track team.

Ned: Probably dropped acid at least once in college. Really enjoys skiing. Learned how to play the guitar as a part of his midlife crisis. Met Cat after she went on two dates with his brother Brandon and they decided they were better as friends. Brandon brought her to a party, and Ned ended up giving her a ride home after his brother found another girl to chat up. They quickly found out that they had a lot in common, and she got along famously with his mother, who Ned was extremely close to. Has a serious sweet tooth

Elia: Likes to paint, but doesn’t think she’s very good at it. Grew up speaking Rhoynish with her family, and taught it to the kids. Has forgotten more about art than most people will ever know, and is extremely efficient when set loose in a flea market. Really likes theater and ballet, and took ballet classes through college.

Lyanna: is working on a book about money in Westerosi politics that’s tied into her current investigation of the Boltons, but only Elia knows about it. Grew up far north, and her first language was the Old tongue rather than Andali, but didn’t want her kids picking it up, because the accent is stigmatized. Keeps notes for her articles in the Old Tongue to keep her nosy kids from reading them.

Theon: Is doing a psychiatry residency in King’s Landing currently. Does a fair amount of biking, and 100% does a polar bear swim in the ocean every winter (Aegon always shows up to cheer him on and they go out for drinks afterwards- his girlfriend, Jeyne, thinks this is insane). Refuses to eat blue foods and was actually a decent French horn player in high school.

Thank you- this was a fun one!! :)

[alliluyevas]

Are any of Cerion's or Jaime's daughters betrothed? Elenei and Joanna are both 13/14

I think they're both sort of in betrothal discussions...I think Joanna's situation is a little complicated by the fact that she is currently second in line after her father to inherit Casterly Rock but I don't think either her father or grandfather want to acknowledge that and she could definitely still acquire a baby brother given that her parents are both in their early thirties. If she continues to be a future default heir, she is absolutely marrying within the family so control of CR does not go to an outside husband. I think the natural candidate for that position would be Lancel, but I don't think they've pulled the trigger on that betrothal yet because She Could Still Have A Brother, Right? (Side note: she is NOT a fan of this idea)

Elenei's situation is a little more complicated because as a princess she is definitely marrying into one of the Great Houses but there's no precedent for non-Targ princesses and also not a ton of candidates, and I imagine there is a fair amount of debate over who the best option would be. I think the most likely possibilities would be either Edmure or Willas Tyrell. Quentyn Martell is the right age but Arianne is the heir, so if Elenei married him she would not be the ruling lady someday which would be seen as a drawback. Then there's also Robb Stark but I think Robert prefers the Sansa/Joffrey betrothal and probably wouldn't want to go for a double Stark match. Also Highgarden and Riverrun are both closer to home than Dorne or the North which I think Jaime would prefer. And technically there's Theon but for a variety of reasons namely him being a hostage and everyone considering the Iron Islands a barbaric cultural backwater I don't think that was even considered. So again I think in her case there are probably several different ideas being footed and she won't be getting married for another 3-4 years at least so there's time to figure things out. I mean, until war breaks out, but!

Edit: I straight up forgot about the Vale especially because I haven’t decided what’s going on there succession-wise (ie if Harry is still the heir or if Jon Arryn has gotten remarried to someone other than Lysa and managed to produce a son) but whoever it is might be a candidate as well.

[rise-my-angel]

Once saw some Dany stans on twitter theorizing about Jon and Dany's future children they are so sure they will have lol and they were concerned about the kid's coming out with brown hair instead of looking like perfect little Valyrians with silver hair. When you totally don't stan the targs because of white blood purity racial aesthetics. Mind you, these are the same stans that get offended when you tell them they literally sound like white supremacists who want to use eugenics to keep the 'bloodline pure' and produce perfect blonde, pale, violet eyed Aryan babies.

These people probably think it's only a coincidence too that the grandchild Aerys refused to even hold in public court, was the one who was born with darker skin and hair just like Elia.

He probably would have been much happier holding little silver haired purple eyed Aegon.

Honestly Jon came out looking so much like Lyanna and so heavily like a Northerner, that the Targaryeans probably would've all been like "OH GODS WHAT IS THAT THING?"

Targ stans so desperately want their purple eyed silver haired incest babies to all be incestual with each other so that they can go one to have more purple eyed silver haired incest babies. And they somehow think that is perfectly normal behavior to engage in.

Also lmao cus even if Danys womb wasn't 360 noscoped by blood magic, she is so terribly inbred that she probably couldn't even have children anyways. The more inbred Targaryean women are the more they seem to have either very traumatic childbirths or they die on the birthing bed completely. Targaryean women born from such direct incest like Dany have very little chance of having a viable, live birth.

She is too influenced by extremely damaged genetics to have children anyways even if there wasn't the whole magic debate behind it.

Also me even discussing them having children makes me feel gross.

She's his aunt, you weirdos.

[hellsbellschime]

Do you think Aegon will grant northern independence if Jon will go to south? Considering Jon will go to south to enlist help for fighting the others, I think he would be more inclined to take dany help because of dragons. With aegon, I don't think he will allow north to be independent if he wants to rule 7k. Plus I doubt he will willing to help to fight others. I think three targs will remain in South to be part of whole mess.

No, I don’t see any Targaryen granting Northern independence no matter what. I think Jon will want Dany’s help because of the dragons, and I think her offer will be similar to what it was in the series/similar to what OG Aegon’s offer was, i.e. if you don’t want to die, submit to me. I think that Aegon will try to bring the North into the fold by arranging a betrothal with Sansa, it’s the easiest way to try to draw the Northerners back towards the Iron Throne I think, but I do think he’ll be willing to fight the Others if the agreement is right. However, I think there will be some narrative punishment for Dany, Aegon, and anyone else who thinks that they need to put political navigations ahead of survival. I have also thought that all three Targaryens will wind up stuck in the south when shit gets real because they’re too dumb to realize how serious this is and because Jon just gets caught up in it despite the fact that he knows what a huge problem.

I think that fits into the story in two ways, I think there will be narrative punishment for anyone who puts politics above survival but I also think there has to be narrative punishment for Rhaegar being so self-obsessed, presuming a Targaryen has to save the world, and letting his world get torn apart because he thinks nothing matters more than him fulfilling his own interpretation of prophecy. I feel like the very fact that Rhaegar is so convinced that the Targaryens need to save the world means that they won’t, and there is a lot of irony in the fact that Rhaegar’s actions destroyed the lives of Dany, Jon, and Aegon in different ways and that will now have serious effects on what they can do and decide to do when they’re facing the threat that Rhaegar was so obsessed with in the first place. And just on a very basic level, I think the notion that Jon, Aegon, and Dany will all believe that they’re heroes or that they have to save Westeros on some level and all three of them will wind up missing the apocalypse because they can’t stop debating politics for long enough to get anything done is hilarious.