#thinking about it they may have just been saying that trans people are PERCEIVED as a third gender

[floweringpopcat]

getting gradually more frustrated because this documentary i'm watching for my gender class is labeling every identity other than man and woman as a "third gender". like?? trans women and men are not a third gender they are women and men

[bilateralgyneandromorphic]

really fascinating developments in the perisex world where there’s been this response to intersex people disliking TME/TME terminology, supporting the concept transandrophobia/anti-transmasculinity, etc that has somehow led a lot of perisex trans people to decide they’re allowed to be overtly intersexist in fun new ways. it used to be that a lot of trans people held an excessively reverent tone towards intersex people and this was oddly fetishistic in its own right, but the point is that queer people who knew about intersex people, knew intersex people are oppressed by perisex people.

this doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. it seems to me that some people genuinely believe intersex trans people actually have special intersex privileges that allow them to wield a new oppressive power over trans people, especially transfems, because it has seemingly been decided that the only type of trans that intersex people can be is transmasculine. there are no TMA intersex people when discussing transmisogyny because every single intersex transfem is under immense scrutiny to prove her right to identify as transfem, and every investigation concludes that if you don’t have the beliefs they think you should have, it’s obviously because you aren’t a real transfem who would believe those things. the obvious inverse of this logic is never explored, though. intersex people cannot be transfem because [insert definition that excludes intersex people regardless of situation], but at the same time, transmasculinity of intersex people is rarely called into question by the perisex trans community, and it’s often expected. the same people who will insist that you have the wrong AGAB (transfemininity is inherently related to birth assignment and nothing else), the wrong set of parts (transfemininity requires a body that people perceive as male and nothing else), or the wrong social upbringing (transfemininity requires being forced into a male social role while also never being accepted into it). and at any given point, all of these will be contradicted. if you say you have an ambiguous or CTF intersex variation but were assigned male, suddenly it’s a question of such things as “how you are transfem and menstruate,” those are of course at odds. they will question your right to be transfem because “the transfem experience” includes not having a menstrual cycle. but if you say you were AFAB but are CTM and plan to medically transition in a pattern similar to perisex transfems, well, this is bioessentialist of you to consider as transfemininity because you clearly believe being transfem is about having a penis and nothing else. transfemininity is actually only social, and if you were AFAB, nothing about your body will be relevant. and what if you were AFAB but treated as a boy your whole life, forced into male identity even when you were actually a girl? you probably just don’t actually understand the terms. you probably just experienced a lot of misdirected transmisogyny because they thought you were transfem.

so of course, there are no intersex transfems, aside from maybe, just maybe, a select few who only found out a variation with very few physical signs later in life. in some cases, this person may be accepted as transfem. in others, their transfemininity still may be called into question.

so, people with these experiences trend towards different labels and their own communities. they identify as transfemmasc, AFAB trans women, intergender, cistrans, and the perisex community has the gall to say it’s because intersex people have actually oppressed trans people into not wanting them around anymore. it couldn’t possibly be because perisex trans people, exactly like perisex cis people, have never fully accepted intersex people into their gendered spaces. it couldn’t possibly be that we are all wary of perisex people, trans or cis, because cis people say “you’re not a real woman, you’re intersex,” only for trans people to say, “you’re not a real woman, you’re intersex.”

[jaidenk-nox]

Elizabeth midford

Shitty 2AM rant on the Misogyny that Lizzy has faced since the very start but it's the perspective of someone who has witnessed the horrors of Misogyny in Spanish speaking fandom

I should mention that English is not my first language and I'm not very good with it either, so most of this was done with Google Translate and I tried to correct what I could, I hope it's at least readable

I've never seen enough people point out the fact that Elizabeth midford character also defies the "Girlboss" archetype, she is definitely physically strong and can protect herself, but she is A 15 YEAR OLD GIRL, who manages her emotions like someone her age would and also exhibits many neurodivergent traits. I have always been bothered by the way physical strength is misunderstood as a "girlboss" trait, the simplest example I can think of is Ran Mao, she possesses brutal and superhuman strength. but it doesn't make her a girlboss, in case anyone forgets Ran is a girl who barely reaches 18 years old and is exploited by an opium trader who also seems to be involved in human trafficking (implied in the manga). Is she really a girlboss? girlboss when her physical strength is more of a requirement to SURVIVE while working as an assassin and sometimes seductress (which u can tell she doesn't enjoy much)? Obviously Ranmao's social reality is very different as she is a woman of color from the underworld, unlike Elizabeth, who is a white woman from the nobility. However, her physical strength has always been a double-edged sword for herself. Lizzy longs to get married, like any other girl her age, she longs to be protected but says goodbye to it the moment Ociel returns.

I may seem a bit exaggerated, but the way your sociocultural background affects the way you perceive and treat a character has me slightly traumatized, I wish I could give proof of the horrible and degrading treatment that Lizzy has received from the Spanish-speaking fandom.

I am a trans boy of color who grew up watching my female relatives being encouraged to rip their hearts out of their chest from the moment they turned 8yo for the simple goal of caring for and protecting my cis male relatives. household chores, cooking for them, washing their clothes, taking accountability for their actions. Their freedom and childhood as little girls were taken away from them. but none of that was ever valued, I never saw anyone recognize it as sacrifice.

Elizabeth is not a woman of color, nor does she have those demands as a woman of nobility, but she SACRIFICED stuff to try to protect Ciel on her own way, I have seen many people underestimate her backstory in book of Atlantic because "High heeled shoes aren't reason to cry." Everything Lizzy has done for Ciel is devalued, all her suffering has been minimized. losing so many family members in such a short time, losing the boy you were raised to marry your entire life. People truly forget that lizzy is still just a child, that she has the right to mourn everything she lost that day. She had to mourn publicly as a noble girl,she probably heard that she would never be able to get married or would never achieve happiness, I've never seen any adult to stop and think about how heartbreaking and soul shattering that must have been as a 11yo

I have seen how EVERY thing Lizzy does is judged. how her behavior, personality and temperament are criticized. but other characters like Soma just get a pass while doing the same stuff, but this does not just stop at gender, but also at age. people HATE girls and afabs who act like children when they are literally CHILDREN.

How is it possible that Lizzy has faced such harsh judgment from the fandom when there are other characters like Maam red, Lau, Grell, Undertaker who are universally ADORED or atleast respected in the fandom.

I love u Elizabeth midford but ur character makes me violently ill omfg

[cl0ckworkqueerness]

in the wake of the reveal of the "pills that make you green" comic's creator revealing her true colours (something I've been aware of for a while but haven't had much specifically to speak about until now), i think it's important to take a step back and look at some of her claims about transandrophobia, as well as many anti-transandrophobia (or transandrophobic) talking points, and analyze them critically without, in any way, demeaning transmisogyny as a concept. let's start with some of the things i've seen on her blog and go from there

first of all, there's a lot of talk about how activists who are vocal about transandrophobia are "derailing" conversations about transmisogyny. while i'm certain there are some legitimate examples, many of the examples i have seen that i presume she is referring to are speaking about her comics that specifically strawman the stick figure who is an allegory of a trans man or transmasculine individual.

in these comics, this stick figure is often unjustly cruel and even oppressive of the lime stick figure, an allegory for trans women or transfeminine individuals, while simultaneously whining about how they also experience oppression and should be focused on instead. this frames trans men and transmasculine individuals as loud, taking up space, oppressing transfeminine people (who are More Oppressed), and simply cannot understand that they do not face as terrible of treatment as the other.

the problem that most people, myself included, take with this is that the author seems to be living in an alternate world where trans men, somehow, are a legitimate, strong, oppressive force over trans women, and want to take up all the space in the trans community's discussion to ourselves. there are definitely people who abuse the term transandrophobia to say transmisogynistic things, without a doubt, but in my experience most of us simply want to say that we, too, experience terrible types of oppression as a result of intersectionality that a trans woman, transfeminine, or trans person who's perceived as either of those things may not experience. transandrophobia is not meant to overtake transmisogyny, it is meant to stand beside transmisogyny and further prove that different trans people can experience different types of oppression, and thus should unite against both.

another thing i've seen on the comic author's account is how the idea of androphobia is anti-feminist and comes from MRAs or something, which... uh, again, i don't know what planet you're living on, but here on earth, there are men who are discriminated against and even treated with violence because of their ties to masculinity, femininity, both, or neither. and again, it is not our problem if MRAs decide to appropriate actual, useful terms in order to spread misogyny. we should not have to keep changing our language every time a bad person uses it. if we did, we would have no language, and thus once again be silenced.

since i don't have the time or the spoons to go through everything she's ever said or reblogged on her account, i'll just go over one more thing. no, the discussion and desired visibility of transandrophobia is not some kind of psyop or massive conspiracy to kill the idea of transmisogyny. if we didn't believe in transmisogyny, we'd have no reason to believe in transandrophobia either, after all. for me, at least, talking about transandrophobia is equally as important because trans men, like myself, have been forced into silence for so long and erased from most of history. trans men weren't even well documented until much, much later in history.

additionally, i doubt this needs to be said, but if any of you are actually intentionally ignoring transmisogyny in your discussion of intersectionality, you have no place in this discussion

and finally, to the author of these comics, i doubt you're reading this, but if you are, please reconsider your hostility. framing the discussion around transandrophobia in the way you are is not only equating trans people who face detrimental oppression to the people who are trying to oppress us and force us into silence, but you too are actively advocating for the silencing and erasure of, and subsequently the lack of resources for, trans men, transmasculine individuals, trans people who are perceived as either of these things, or anyone who primarily faces transandrophobia. i don't blame you for being defensive, and i will absolutely take your side should anyone be transmisogynistic towards you or anyone else, but you don't have to drag trans men who just want to talk about our shared experiences through the mud in order to support your point of transmisogyny's danger, especially within the trans community. if you want to have a genuine, mature discussion about transandrophobia and its dangers, and transmisogyny within the trans community, i'm sure someone would be happy to discuss that with you. but with the way you're treating and talking about trans men, it is unlikely that you will take anyone up on that offer

idk man. i feel like it's important to talk about transmisogyny and transandrophobia at the same time, as well as all other forms of intersectionality. we should be turning transphobes into couches instead of whatever the hell this is

[bassband]

I want the foucault essay please.

Well... since you asked...

The thing is, the move from the London apartment(s) to the phouse represents not only a symbolic shift in the visual language of their videos but a material change in both Dan and Phil's lives and in their relationship with their audience. Furthermore, we can use it to understand some of the murkier aspects of phandom history if we care to delve into an investigation of sexuality, conformity, and desire.

The London apartment is a place well and truly of its time, from the geek chic decor to the midtwentysomething string lights in Dan's bedroom. It was a serious undertaking for two twenty-somethings who had just gotten a radio job, and were committing to live in a very expensive location on an entertainer's income. They have spoken about the difficulty they experienced in separating their work and their public personas from their private lives, which is perhaps most poignantly demonstrated by the fact that they literally slept with cameras and lights pointing at their beds.

In Discipline and Punish, Foucault (and forgive me, I've donated my copies of his books since I left college, so I'll be working from memory) describes the modern phenomenon of the "panopticon"-- a disciplinary tool of the modern era where rather than physically restraining or controlling transgressors, people are kept in line by the feeling that they are constantly being monitored. The knowledge of societal norms, and whether an individual has violated them, is the axis on which power turns.

During their time in London, Dan and Phil were experiencing a meteoric rise to fame which no one could have anticipated. Suddenly it seemed that their every gesture, every movement, every interaction with one another, was under constant scrutiny from millions of viewers. One can only imagine the degree to which that feeling spilled over into their day-to-day existence, because it must have-- I can't imagine putting on an act for the camera, scouring the footage for bits that seemed too revealing or vulnerable, and then trying to sleep in front of the same camera which, even if it wasn't on, represented the watching, monitoring gaze of the internet.

The social norm in question here, of course, was being gay. Mostly, anyway. A transgression of sexuality. Foucault has a lot to say about this too, of course, in the several volumes of his History of Sexuality. I won't get into that too much here. To summarize with a butcher's brevity, the modern conception of sexuality is, like that of criminality, shaped by the need to cognize, label, categorize, and scientifically observe it. At other points in the past, even when sexuality may have been perceived as deviant or wrong, it was treated as an act, not as an intrinsic flaw. To identify someone as being homosexual, or queer, or trans, or what have you, is a relatively new invention.

Were Dan and Phil gay? Were they just friends? Were they bisexual? Did they actually live together? Did they fuck? The near-rabid desire to get to the bottom of these questions was shaped in part by a societal urge in our culture to pin people down like butterflies in a collector's case. The knowledge of bodies, desires, and the latent Catholic urge to demand they all be confessed in excruciating detail haunted Dan and Phil wherever they went online.

In this new era then, are we doing any better? I think we are. Where the London apartment is documented by floor plan down to the last inch (and worse yet, was at one point doxxed), the phouse is an intentionally private space with plenty left to the imagination, where I do so hope the boys are living WITHOUT cameras pointed where they sleep. There's something interesting to me, too, in their disinterest in framing their relationship in concrete terms. The nature of their celebrity is bound to expose them to scrutiny, both from friendly and unfriendly gazes, but I feel like the main difference in their attitude these days is a plain refusal to allow the surveillance to dictate their lives. Some things, they just don't want to talk about. Some things they do (and oh boy, do they love to talk about those things).

Our cultural frameworks do us no favors in understanding this kind of ambiguity, but I think it's to our credit as an audience that overall I see more and more people embracing it. Foucault is a bit of a downer overall, but he concludes the History of Sexuality vol. 1 by saying something to the effect of, the best we can do is to follow our desires and try to find joy for ourselves and our communities in doing so. And a radically liberatory approach to desire and joy is I think exactly what this community cultivates at its best, for our boys and for ourselves.

[velvetvexations]

I’m. So baffled by that one dude saying that trans men being able to pretend to be women is a privilege, because in his tags he says that it’s a thing specific to transmascs. Does he mean pretending to be cis as a means of safety is a transmasc specific thing?? Because uh, I’m… pretty sure that’s something that can be done regardless of a trans person’s gender? There are transfems and nonbinary people who can also pretend to be cis [whatever their agab was], too?

Its also not a privilege. Having to hide what you are out of fear isn’t a fucking privilege lmao

strangely people understand that when it's about trans women

just saw a post on my dash saying "'infighting' is a dogwhistle which frames transfems as aggressors". i really hope the tide is turning like you said, bc this shit is getting exhausting and im still seeing it from random people i follow who otherwise gave no indication that they drank the koolaid.

they make me out to be the aggressor all the time!

Nazi imagery anon here

These are the pics I was referring to.

As you can see it’s posted on the verified border security account and you can see two different nazi symbols on him :(

yeah it looks like standards for what they allow soldiers to adorn themselves with are low and the person taking and posting the pics aren't paying good enough attention because that guy also straight up has a naked anime bitch on his knife sheath

as I said this is an individual thing and they need to start knocking their heads together like the Three Stooges and sending them into trenches first

You know who saying that th**fab is actually a storied term that trans fems have been using to identify transmisogonists is fucking insane like girl that's such obvious lie give us nothing

they aren't even trying

It’s crazy how almost every other day on this site I see a new post with like 50k notes talking about how absolutely NOBODY deserves to be harassed, sent death threats or be put on blast yet once again I’m seeing people trying to justify the harassment of another transmasc teenager. Honestly people should just start openly admitting Tumblr is becoming increasingly hostile towards trans masculine individuals, I don’t see clownery on this level on any other platform-

Tumblr...is really bad.

I think the reason why this whole headcanons discourse bothers me so much is that is really is just fuelled by petty spite. Like all these characters are cisgender in canon. We make headcanons because it’s FUN to expand on characters in ways that reflect our different life experiences in whatever form that may take. Intentionally going after transmascs, especially young transmascs, for doing this with characters like they like and accusing them of all these different things genuinely does just feel like bigotry. Who cares if a head canon may not make the most amount of sense? It’s a cisgender fictional character we’re playing around with! Why does it have to be some grand act of activism to say blorbo number 3 is transmasc? We have much bigger fish to fry here.

exactly it's such dedication to not letting anyone else have anything

So sick of people acting like trans men are the same as cis men under the patriarchy and moreso im really sick of the "you're privileged to not be surrounded by men". Like, for lack of better phrasing, saying that about a group of people that is generally perceived as "failure women" pre transition (and sometimes during and post) is a little tone deaf. All about acknowledging how women and people perceived as women are harmed by misogyny until the ones perceived are men. Gender essentialism is ugly and tasteless and nonsensical. Please feel free to delete this im just rambling without a point

rambling is okay anon <3

„wow ur so privileged to not fear men”

i fear the fucking everyone asshole, i just realized that isnt everyone elses fault so i should still treat them with respect !!!!!

that woman called me a "self-hating doll" and I hate the second part a lot more than the first

[genderqueerdykes]

hi um. i’d like to ask you for some advice, since it seems like a lot of people come to you when they need it. i’m a trans girl who’s been taking estrogen for 2.5 years but. i’m just so disappointed and unhappy with what hrt has done for me. i feel like i’ve been completely taken over by doomerism from me constantly comparing myself to other transfems both online and irl, and from spending too much time on trans reddit (i’m sending you this ask instead of writing another vent post on r/mtf). through this i’ve convinced myself that i will never be happy with my body, or that i’ll never have real boobs or a feminine body at all. i really really don’t want to give up hope, but it just seems so far out of reach, and i’m stuck down here in this inky abyss. what do you do in dark times when you need to regain hope, but you can’t do it yourself?

first of all, i wanted to say i'm sorry that you're feeling this way. medical transition is a very finicky thing. there is no way to predict what will happen and when, so it's okay to feel just. completely bummed the hell out when you're not seeing the changes you hoped for yet. i definitely see how it can be crushing, especially when you know your body needs to look a different way for you to be happy. it's important to consider people look a lot different irl than they do in photos and videos. camera lenses can only capture so much. pictures and videos can be edited. it's hard to compare yourself to something like that

& i did want to say that you're definitely not alone! there are a lot of girls in your exact situation. with everyone responding to HRT differently, you'll see girls who get changes right away, and girls where it takes a long time. changes with HRT generally happen very slowly, way slower than the eye can perceive, so it's okay if you feel like nothing is happening. your body just may need more time to adjust

have you ever increased your dose? if not, that is totally an option! you may also want to look into progesterone if you find that you're not happy with your breast growth after some time. it's best to look into progesterone first to make sure it's right for you, as it will affect more than just breast growth, but i wanted to throw it out there as an option! if you're not on an androgen blocker, this could also potentially help you

for both estrogen and testosterone HRT, it can take a minimum of 5 years for people to begin seeing the effects they were desiring. 5 years, minimum! that's a very long time, comparatively, you are very early on in your journey. the effects you want to see may just come along further on down the road. i know it's easy to fall into the trap of comparing yourself to others. it's good to remind yourself that they are not you, they do not share your genetics. they look like them. you look like you. it's okay that you don't look like those people- they're not you.

it doesn't make you any less of a woman just because you haven't seen these changes yet. there are plenty of women who look just like you, cis, intersex, trans, genderqueer, and otherwise. there are many cis and intersex women who don't "pass", and it doesn't make them any less of a woman: the same applies to you, and every trans girl. dysphoria can be a real pain in the ass and make things harder than it needs to be. it's okay to not be content with where you're at now. it's okay to be frustrated that you're not seeing the changes you want to right now. many, many trans people feel just the same way you do.

you may feel awkward and uncomfortable right now because you're literally in a transitional phase. think about when teenagers go through puberty, about how awkward they look and feel. cracking voices, bodies that are "in the middle" and not fully developed. that's what you're going through at the moment, and its okay. it just takes time for things to fully settle in.

what i would suggest is trying to find ways to do some self care that affirm your gender that don't involve your appearance. validating yourself in other ways is extremely important. building yourself up takes time. if you feel insecure about how you look, it's okay. you can start building your confidence in your identity and gender in other areas of yourself, first, then move on to your appearance. try to spend time with people who respect you for who you are, no matter how you look. try to surround yourself with people and things that affirm you

i hope you start seeing those changes you want to see soon. if you need more advice, feel free to ask! if any other trans girls on E have any advice for the asker, or relate to the experience, please feel free to chip in with some feedback on this ask, or by sending an ask! due to being intersex, i was taking estrogen and progesterone despite not wanting to, so i was not cataloguing what was changing or anything like that, so i can't speak from personal experience there despite having been on E HRT in the past.

take care of yourself for now. try to go easy on yourself, you're still in your coocoon. the day where you emerge as a butterfly is on its way, it just takes a little time. please feel free to come back any time. i hope we can get some good insight for you

[intersexcat-tboy]

hello! this question may come off as ignorant and i apologise, but what's wrong with the terms tme and tma? i know what it means but i dont really understand the (for lack of a better word) issue with these terms.

i looked it up and it didn't really help me all that much :<

I could've sworn I had several posts tagged w it explaining a few reasons why but now there's only 2? 🤔

Here's a starter (link)

There are a few reasons, on their own it's whatever ig, but it relies on the assumption oppression is based solely on identity and not ever considering how your oppressors see you. There isn't a "ableism immune" or "homophobia immune" bc we understand hate crimes are based on PERCEIVED or actual status, not just actual. What's happening to Imane Khelif is being called transmisogyny everywhere, so clearly it's not limited to just transfems, but many will then turn around and say those who were AFAB can't experience it. Some have discussed using "targeted" to convey how it's disproportionately faced rather than arguing how people are incapable of facing it, and I understand that argument better but....

One of the big things is the issue of how people use them. I wouldn't have an issue at all if they were solely personal descriptors, similar to AGAB, to describe your own experience. Instead, people use them to deny violence and oppression. People thinking they get to determine others experiences.

On another side, it's basically used as the Top Misery Award and The Mild Expierence. If you're TMA, it's treated as facing the most or worst oppression, if you're TME, are you really oppressed? Actually, you're privileged (not HAVE a privilege, ARE privileged). This aligns with white feminism believing misogyny is the root or worst oppression.

Most of the people who use it tend to think trans men don't have their own type of oppression faced disproportionately, oftentimes erasing that violence as well. A lot outright deny intersexism and refuse to engage with any points made by intersex individuals about how it affects us as well.

Then there's the whole aspect of how it's "supposed" to mean everyone but transfems (which is kinda a weird thing to want a word for when calling similar ones co-opting), but they only ever use it to mean trans people who were AFAB. You can tell this by how things are said (tme being used for intercommunity), or something like "TRANS TMEs since I guess I have to say that to make it clear 🙄"

There's also the fact everyone defines it differently. Some way you need to have been born w a penis, others say you need to have been AMAB, which contradict each other as someone who was AFAB could have been born w a penis, and some people have multiple AGABs (such as at birth and then a few weeks later)

If you only use it to describe yourself, idrc

[plural-on-paws]

May I expand. It’s not about the “animal packers” and etc. I believe that it’s nobody’s business. The issue is how nonsensical it sounds to say “I am an animal” out loud. People will laugh at you. You will damage your own relationships. Think. Is it worth it? And why do people act like that? Because it’s crazy.

There’s a popular conservative lie that is spread around of “litter boxes in schools” and “people identifying as animals” and that’s NOT REAL. It comes from a complete fabrication to make trans people look worse. Don’t try to make it real. I don’t care if it’s “been around for decades” that doesn’t change anything. It’s not about streamlining your identity to make it more digestible to outsiders who don’t understand, it’s about the threshold where “identity” crosses between “genuine insanity” and if you can’t SEE the clear line between those two things then there isn’t much hope for you.

Hey anon! Great to see you actually just hate therians! Hooray!

Even longer post, will also be under a cut!

Firstly, addressing the very popular but very wrong lie of "kids are using litter boxes in schools": These are for service animals. These are put in place by schools who have students (or teachers) who have disabilities that require them to bring a service animal to school with them. This has nothing to do with therianthropy, it is just a lie that Tiktok caught on to and spread it like wildfire.

(Now, to add in before this section, this isn’t to “throw clinical zoanthropes under the bus” with therian discourse. There’s nothing “wrong” with clinical zoanthropes, just like there’s nothing “wrong” with therians. I am simply stating facts. That’s it. I think it’s important to be educated about things like this. Let’s continue.)

Secondly, therianthropy is not "being crazy". It is not a mental illness, it is not a disability, it is not wrong. However, you may be interested im learning about "clinical lycanthropy" (or zoanthropy, different from therianthropy). This is an extremely rare, delusion-based psychiatric syndrome characterized by patients believing that they can or have physically transformed into a non-human animal. It is essentially the delusion that one can shapeshift into a werewolf (or similar animal). It is associated with psychosis (aka delusions and hallucinations). It is considered to be an expression of a psychotic or dissociative episode caused by another condition (like DID, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or depression).

This article describes a report done on clinical lycanthropy. Over 130 articles were screened and between 1852 and 2020, there were 43 cases of clinical lycanthropy identified. That's right. 43. Now, have you seen how many therians are on Tiktok? Yeah, more than 43. And they're definitely not from 1852. So how can you say that therianthropy is "being crazy"? And don't say "they're just delusional" because the only delusion that somewhat accurately presents like therianthropy is that of clinical lycan/zoanthropy. Professionals would know if someone is genuinely delusional, but why would they care about such a small group of people in the world?

There are also studies done on patients with clinical lycanthropy actually have differences in their brains. The part of the brain known to be involved with represent body shape can display unusual activation in patients with clinical lycanthropy, showing that when patients report their body changing and shapeshifting, they may genuinely be perceiving those feelings. Have therians ever claimed to you that they can feel their bones and skin and limbs shifting and changing to become that of a non-human animal? No, because therianthropy is not a delusion. There are often no physical feelings in the body of a therian when they, for example, experience phantom tails or ears etc. That begs the question, would you say that an amputee experiencing phantom limbs is psychotic?

So, people identifying as a non-human animal is real! There are reported cases of it in the medical field! Shocking, right? It must be crazy to you that there are documented medical cases of people identifying as animals, allllll the way back to 18-goddamn-52.

Thirdly, therianthropy has nothing to do with being trans. It never has, it never will. No one has ever claimed it to be. Being trans means that your assigned sex and birth does not match with how you perceive yourself and how you want others to perceive you. What you might be thinking of is being trans-species. This is okay too! It just means that your assigned species at birth (human, obviously) does not match with how you perceive yourself and how you want others to perceive you. See how I used two different words? Species and gender?

Plus not all therians are trans-species, like myself! Generally I don't have much of a desire to physically become a wolf or a cat or a shark. I'm comfortable being perceived as a human, even though sometimes I just wanna wag my tail and run around and put my ears back and growl! I know that some therians feel super uncomfortable in their human body and wish that they could change! And that's where the species-affirming packers come in. It's like being transgender but it is not! And no one is claiming it is.

Another thing is that a lot of therians tend to be neurodivergent. But you're not saying that therianthropy is ableist, are you? No, you're just trying to connect two dots that are miles away. Neurodiverse people can feel a disconnection with humanity, and that can explain for some people their alterhumanity. Of course, not all therians are neurodivergent nor do they believe that their neurodiversity are the root of their alterhumanity. Have a look at this poll from Reddit, almost two thirds of participants indicated that they're neurodiverse!

Now, being neurodivergent calls for being discriminated against in and of itself. Same with being LBGT+. And being any race except white. Do you really think that therians who are LBGT+ are going to be discriminated against more for their alterhumanity than their sexual orientation or gender? No. Do you really think that therians who are neurodiverse are going to be discriminated against more for their alterhumanity than their disabilities? No again. Do you really think that therians who are POC are going to be discriminated against more for their alterhumanity than their race? Absolutely not.

Ultimately, people have been discriminating against POC, gay, trans and neurodivergent people long before they were called "weird" for being a therian. People have been killed over simply being gay or trans or neurodivergent or . Therians may receive death threats, yes, and that is disgusting behaviour from hateful people, but no one (to my knowledge) has been killed simply for being a therian. The discrimination against LGBT+, neurodivergent and POC communities runs way way way deeper than anyone saying "therians are weird". Do you think that therians in these communities are going to be more worried about being laughed at because they're a therian than being literally slaughtered for their race, disabilities, sexual orientation or gender? No! There are way worse problems for people to worry about than people saying they identify as animals! It truly is not that deep to say "I identify as an animal". Some people identify as inanimate objects but you don't seem to care about that (although there is nothing wrong with identifying as an inanimate object).

Also I can't even comprehend what you're talking about "streamlining your identity to make it more digestible". How is identifying as an animal more digestible than identifying as a man instead of a female like I was born as?

[knifedog-machina]

Being Human: A Species Identity Compare and Contrast

Written by Gavin on June 27, 2024.

Hey, I'm Gavin, and despite hanging out in various alterhuman spaces, I'm 100% a human person. I live in a system with two headmates who are also human, but identify as other species as well - Max as a velociraptor therian, Jude as a dog archetrope and an android. In contrast, I specifically, completely identify as human.

What's so special about that, being human? Statistically, it's nothing remarkable - most people on Earth identify as human after all. I think what's really interesting is that, over the past year, I've been connected to communities that all contain people (or non-people, as the case may be) who partially or fully identify as nonhuman - otherkin, therians, a solid number of fictionfolk and some alterhumans. Therefore, I feel like I can compare and contrast my species identity to the experiences of others, in a way that most people who philosophize on what humanity is don't get the chance to.

We tend to think of humanity as The Default, a non-identity, since the majority of self-identified nonhumans were raised as human, and we all live in human societies. Most people don't bother clarifying that they are human unless they're dehumanized, because it seems obvious that being born human means you're human. Given humanity's position as a default state, a lot of nonhumans see it as an opposing and fundamentally different experience from nonhumanity.

In this way, species identity is similar to gender identity - cisgender people, who identify with the genders they were assigned at birth, are often assumed by transgender people to have a fundamentally different understanding of gender. I feel like both of these assumptions are oversimplifications, ones that miss out on a lot of nuance, and throughout this essay I will be comparing gender and species, as a trans man whose species is as important to him as his gender.

There are some common threads I've noticed when it comes to having a sense of identity. I wouldn't call them universal experiences, I can't read minds, but they're frequent enough to be significant. They may be more obvious when it's an identity at odds with your body (e.g. being transgender or nonhuman) - but I'd go so far as to say that plenty of cisgender (and human!) people also experience these feelings, and simply don't have the words or desire to describe their feelings with these terms.

First off, identity euphoria - the internal sense of alignment, joy, and contentedness one gets from presenting and being perceived as their identity. A trans man might experience gender euphoria from presenting and being treated as a man, and so do many cis men. Think about how thrilled many guys are when their beards fill out; that's facial hair as a presentation of masculinity, and gaining it is a gender euphoric experience. In a very similar way, a nonhuman experiences species euphoria from being perceived as their species - and so do I, as a human being.

I’m trans, so I know how gender euphoria feels for me. I find that the more I'm just treated as a man, the more that the bright elation of being correctly gendered turns into a sense of quiet satisfaction - this is what I am, and everyone knows it, and all is right with the world. There's no reason to think too much about it unless something calls attention to it, and then I feel confident and comfortable enough in myself that other people's judgements are more annoying than hurtful. I exist peacefully in my body, happy with the way people see me in it, and sometimes I'll do something that feels extra masculine and grin about it for five minutes.

My species euphoria falls into the same sort of category - I feel content with my body, the way it matches how I feel internally, and the way other people treat me because of it. I feel fundamentally comfortable with my human body map and movements, having a flat face and hands and nails, walking upright on the soles of my feet. I feel comfortable when I'm acknowledged as a human and a person, when I do something that’s known to be human - when I wear different clothes to express myself and keep out the cold, when I cook a meal to eat with people, when I sing for the fun of it, when I write and draw to share something creative, when I interact with human technology and invention and creation. Humans have been making clothes and foods and songs and adding marks to the world for about as long as they've existed, and we're still doing it, and if I think about it too long I get emotional. I’m human and I feel deeply connected to humanity, and most of the time I don't think about it because I'm treated as one, but sometimes I’ll notice that I'm doing something that just feels fundamentally human, and it's really nice - sometimes species affirmation can be in the little things, like wearing a beat-up jacket or writing a personal essay.

On the flip side, there's identity dysphoria, the distress experienced when one's identity doesn't align with the way they present or find themselves perceived as. A trans woman might feel gender dysphoria because of her body hair; many cis women also feel less feminine if they don't shave. Species dysphoria is a well-known experience in the nonhuman community, the distress of being seen as human or having a human body when you don't identify as one. Given what I said earlier, hopefully it doesn't come as a shock that people can have the opposite experience - feeling distressed about being seen as nonhuman. I get this kind of species dysphoria.

It feels odd to talk about species dysphoria when I’m not nonhuman, but I still feel it. Mostly it comes up in the context of being in alterhuman spaces, being accidentally mislabeled as nonhuman through proximity to those who are, and I've also felt it in the context of playing around with visualizing myself as nonhuman in art. My body map doesn't have nonhuman features, parts like wings or tails or claws or pointy ears. Picturing myself like that feels wrong, it feels like sandpaper, like there’s this foreign thing attached to my body and I need to cut it off so I can stop this crawling sense of my body not being my own. I used to have an awful amount of gender dysphoria, and I feel like the two are very comparable experiences - the distress of feeling like your body doesn't match your mind. I got top surgery, so the gender dysphoria is gone, and thankfully my body is actually human, because I would be just as distressed about being seen as nonhuman as I was about being seen as a girl.

It’s kind of fascinating that I feel this way, that I can’t picture myself as nonhuman without feeling incredibly uncomfortable. On the other end of the spectrum, there's the entire furry fandom, a subculture of people - most of whom definitely identify as human beings - who regularly depict themselves as nonhuman animals for fun and self-expression. We’re all human, what gives? Do they have a more malleable sense of species identity than I do?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have a straightforward answer to that - like I said, I can't read minds, and I'm just one person. But I do have a couple thoughts on the way humans interface with nonhumanity, on the topic of enjoying it.

See, I get dysphoric about being considered nonhuman, but I've found some loopholes in there. I’m completely fine with my fictional counterpart - the character getting tossed into different AUs for our personal enrichment - being turned into a vampire, a werewolf, a selkie, an android, a person with wings. How's that any different from other expressions of nonhumanity? Well, for me, those stories don't induce dysphoria because they're about humanity, at the end of the day - how people cope with being seen as or turned into monsters, the way they treat one another and the way they treat supposed outsiders, the ways society might change if humans were slightly different animals but still called themselves human. If I were a werewolf, I'd still be human, just one living with the consequences of also being a wolf. If I had wings in a world where all humans have wings, I'm still human in the context of that world. That baseline sense of humanity is what’s important to me.

In a similar vein, I can't stand seriously being seen as nonhuman - but pretending to be nonhuman? Roleplaying? Dressing up in a costume? I can do that. I feel like there’s something very human about being fascinated by the abilities and strengths of every animal that's not your own kind, and wanting them for yourself - the human desire to fly like a bird, swim like a fish, hunt like a wolf, run like a deer.

I think a lot of what people like about fursonas is this sort of wish fulfillment, of having the cool traits of all these fascinating animals, and having that animal self-portrait still being anthro - human - enough to relate to. It's animality through an anthropomorphic lens, through how fun it can be to play pretend and express yourself as a cool deer-wolf-lion hybrid. And usually, those animal choices are symbolic, and the fursona reflects the personality of the person who made it - more often than not, it reflects the cultural stereotypes of what that animal is, instead of being true to what the animal is like as a living organism. It's about the way humans see themselves in animals, not necessarily the way we are animals. So, ironically, being a furry tends to parse as a very human thing to me.

So far, most of this essay has been a comparison, since I see a lot of similarities between identifying as human and identifying as nonhuman. Putting my species into my list of self-identifiers, like how I'd list my name and pronouns, has cemented it as a crucial part of how I view myself and want to be seen. That's the same way a lot of nonhumans think about their species. I have a strong sense of species identity, it just so happens to align with being human. Contrasting the categories seems harder to me.

I could list a bunch of different nonhuman traits that I lack, but it would be on the same level as saying one kintype is different from another. I don't care about walking on all fours, and neither does Max as a raptor. I don't instinctively try to bite a threat, I’d rather kick it, and I know a horse would agree with me. I don't long for the sky and neither does Jude, they're a dog. I don't have a prey drive and neither does a hamster. I don't feel like a nonsapient animal, and neither does an elf.

When it comes down to just being a certain species, there’s not that much of a difference between identifying as a human and identifying as a dragon. There's a bunch of traits that feel correct, and a million others that don't feel right at all.

I could say that I don't understand feeling like I don't fit in my own body, but I do - I had gender dysphoria. I have species dysphoria. If one of my partners is having a phantom shift while co-fronting with me, I invariably end up either leaving front or nullifying their shifts, because I just don't feel comfortable if our combined body map is nonhuman. I don't have memories of being a different species than I am, having abilities that I don't have in my body now, but those aren’t necessary to be nonhuman in the first place.

Do I need to find a contrast that makes sense? Does there need to be some fundamental difference between human and nonhuman identity?

I don't think so. It's all identity, at the end of the day.

[genderkoolaid]

Okay so. I have a problem with this.

Not the statement that trans girls & women can and do experience real trauma from being closeted, that's very true & should absolutely be recognized. The closet can be traumatizing. I would say that it's true that it is straight/cis male privilege to be able to be "normal" in society without having the weight of internalized phobias & the fear of being outed. Growing up trans is very rarely straightforward or free of conflict, internal or external.

But that's not the extent of straight/cis male privilege. People can see you, assume you are straight or a cis man, and then treat you in ways you would not be treated if you were seen as queer. That doesn't negate the areas where you AREN'T benefiting from privilege. It's just that privilege is way more nuanced than "you got it or you don't."

There are, undoubtedly, situations in which a closeted trans girl got some kind of better treatment because she was perceived as a cis guy. But her resume getting preferential treatment because it has a male name on it doesn't mean she doesn't or will not experience transphobia, misogyny, trauma, etc. or that experiencing male privilege at Any Point Ever makes her a privileged male oppressor. That's radfem thinking.

Once again I am asking people to read the section On Male Privilege from The Transfeminist Manifesto which talks about this & why trans people don't have to have an all-or-nothing relationship with male privilege in order to be recognized as oppressed. We have to get out of this black and white thinking on privilege & recognize that marginalized people benefiting from it at certain times or in certain situations does not mean they are not oppressed. Privilege is a patchwork of experiences; the experiences of a cis straight gender conforming man are going to build to a different overall experience with male privilege than a GNC gay trans man. Our idea of & language for (what we currently call) privilege desperately needs an overhaul.

(Also, any trans group's experience cannot be reduced into a single narrative. There are transfems who have always been clocked as queer from a young age, and grew up painfully aware of their femininity & were punished for it. There are also transfems who weren't super feminine as a child, who grew up perceived as a normal cis boy, who may even feel that they were a boy and grew up into a girl/woman. Transfems don't need to have had a traumatizing childhood of being obviously feminine & harassed for it in order to not be a Male Oppressor. there's no Trans Trauma Quota you, an individual, need to fill to prove trans people are Really Oppressed)

[theraddestfemalive]

Y’know what? Fuck it. I’m going to say this

I don’t think any non-gc or tra lib gives a fuck about what im about to say, even considering that im going to tag the cr fandom.

I’m only adding one radfem tag because this post is centered around another topic.

i feel like ever since the trans population has tripled, it hasn’t been the same. Before any of you cucks think im talking about the idea of being trans, im also talking about the community behind it. Their ideas within the concept of it.

the concept of being ‘transgender’ was built on the foundation of sexist stereotypes; although the origins had a different purpose in ancient societies (varying ofcourse), it was ultimately used as a weapon to oppress women in the modern times, the goal was to make a person ‘feel’ like a male or female and now trillions of micro labels and gender identities are used to describe people who feel slightly above the normal and they’re treated as if they’re some kind of clothes that you put on instead of an identity.

Because of this, most people don’t even know what a woman or a lesbian is. They try to replace the definition of something that was exclusive to one sex to cater to the whims of men.

Ever since last year, most my friends that weren’t into that shit now identify as trans and I saw a dramatic shift in their personality. Most if not all of them were autistic women that did not conform of societal standards of what a ‘woman’ is. Some people may argue it’s because of how lightly a transgender identity is perceived. But on my end, I think it also has to do with the lack of representation of quirky female characters in media.

likely I would’ve fit into one of those micro labels or some shit like that but I was lucky enough to discover characters and things that I aligned with so I didn’t have to deal with shitty gender dysphoria (alongside with my very obvious mental issues and me being neurodivergent myself)

When I look at the older cookie run art (2016-2021), or even from eastern countries (eastern countries aren’t really politically correct) I could truly see the characters in the scene. There is passion behind it. The artists are either older or they know what they’re doing. And it doesn’t seem like an overload

when I see newer cookie run ‘fanart’ esp when there’s a lot of people within the western community, I don’t see a lot of what the characters truly are. All I see is their interpretation of what their character would look like if it was an unoriginal copy of a 14 year old gendie’s oc. Alongside with that, they add a thousand headcanons and sexualities, making the character unrecognizable. And if that wasn’t the cherry on top, they’re so obsessed with lgbtq and race stuff (no im not a bigot, don’t even try to fucking label me as one im a bisexual woc ) that’s all what they talk about besides stupid discourse topics. Oh, and also changing a dough color is ‘racist’ (they’re fucking COOKIES. Their dough color was based off of their ingredients and complimentary colors, even the devs had to explain and yet the western community still bitches about it like whiny 5 year olds. They come in all colors, not just fucking skintones.)

I think the characters and ships of the community would be much more likable for me if it wasn’t infiltrated by the discourse gang.

I think instead of giving drugs and cosmetic surgery to children, we should get deeper into the psychology of why there’s a lot of trans people on the rise. Don’t you think it’s weird that it has to be an ‘urgency’ to get surgery or children will kts? Maybe instead of thinking it as a life or death situation, think of how most of these people are mentally ill compared to the other lgbtq demographics.

I probably sound like a fucking dick here and im going to get a lot of hateful notes and messages, but honestly.. idgaf

Before you water this down to ‘trans people bad’ im just highlighting the problems of their community and its immense effect on teens my age (13-15 age range im not telling you) before dickriding the movement, I think *again* we should get deeper into the psychology of these people, thank you for reading.

maybe one or two people know who i am because of the image i will show below, who cares lol

i will block if I receive any threats :)))

[ahamkara-apologist]

you're so right fr. there are so many incredibly written female characters in d2 but there's a mere insignificant pittance of fanworks around them. as a day 1 failsafe lover it drives me nuts how little people seem to care about her. like. maybe bungie was right the fanbase doesn't even see her. and Ada? Ana bray? Elsie? even Eris or ikora? they may as well not exist for how the fandom treats them. but crow is a twink (twunk?) so yknow

A Failsafe stan omg...I'm so sorry my liege you're in the fucking trenches and have my deepest sympathy. I remember when Echoes came out people were like 'eugh Failsafe's humour didn't age well' and I was like...buddy. Failsafe is fucking hilarious. The fact that people were complaining about her humour as if Cayde wasn't the personification of annoying 2014 funnyman is fucking insane to me. I'm convinced that the only reason why Cayde's humour isn't cringe to them while Failsafe and Nimbus's jokes are is bc Cayde is perceived as a cis straight man to the gamerbros (even if there's not a snowflake's chance in hell he is, and robots are inherently trans) while they aren't. And the other girls? Whatever. Practically don't exist as far as fandom is concerned. Again, the fact that Revenant has Eramis as one of the main players in the plot- a nuanced, morally grey old grouch- and yet there is almost NO fan content on her ain't just because Bungie's quality has been piledrived into the ground. It's because she's a woman and a lesbian and thus everything that SHE does is awful and annoying and irrational and hypocritical, when you KNOW that if she were a man, nobody would give a fuck. It would all be 'oooh babygirl I love his dramatic ass' and shit with people crying over how tragic 'he' is and whatnot. But bc Eramis isn't some conventionally attractive twink, it's just radio silence out here. Meanwhile Crow is just a member of the supporting cast, and yet almost all the fanart and fanworks seem to feature him. It's a goddamn travesty, and I'm saying that as someone who likes Crow!

You're wrong on one account tho, and it's that Eris DOES exist to the fandom- but only if it's in ship content with Drifter. Nothing else. Though half the time she's not even acting like Eris bc a lot of shippers seem to think that they're 'fixing' each other instead of bonding over ways to do batshit insane bs in their free time. All her other significant relationships? Out the window. Gotta pare them down to an enemies to lovers trope where slurs are seen as cute. Which is insane to me bc like...the thing that makes Drifter and her relationship great is the fact that they're both freaks, and yet many people seem to want them to fit the parameters of a normal relationship. Like my sister in the light those are two new guys at this point

[pocket-deer-boy]

can you maybe help me understand something please?

i don’t quite understand how TME/TMA terminology is helpful. anyone can be a victim of transmisogyny.

you can’t say cis women are TME because not all cis women are. they could be mistake for a trans women. especially cis women of color.

you can’t say cis or trans men are TME for the same reasons.

not everybody fits in the boxes of TME or TMA. i don’t understand how those are helpful terms.

this is not meant to be rude in any way, i’m just confused.

Ok so this is kinda messy and shitty but whatever i’ll bite.

First, yes, anyone can have transmisogyny targeted at them, mistakenly or not. I like to compare it to ableism. Anyone can experience transmisogyny, but when you’re TMA transmisogyny is specifically inescapable. There is nothing you could do to escape being a victim of it short of denouncing your whole transition. I’ve been mistaken for a woman before and catcalled under the assumption that i am a woman, those are sticky situations to be in if you’re a queer man. But these situations are easily avoided by being more visibly masculine for me. If you’re a trans woman, this means going back into the closet, or even detransitioning to avoid this danger. That’s obviously completely unrealistic and insulting if you’re transfem.

Similarly, anyone can be inconvenienced by structural ableism when a building doesn’t have an elevator or ramps. However, the building would be specifically hostile and unusable towards people with wheelchairs. The difference is in wether you’re a target of exclusion or violence vs. simply momentarily inconvenienced by its presence. I.e. if someone says something transmisogynistic towards me i could still say in full confidence that i am a man, and that might buy me some safety. The person might apologize, saying they were confused or something. A trans woman would be misgendering herself in doing so. If there’s no elevator in the building and i’m carrying heavy groceries, i could still walk up the stairs. It might be heavy and inconvenient for me, but a wheelchair user couldn’t get up even under normal conditions.

They aren’t entirely cleanly defined boxes of course! But they are useful categories for discussing differences in how transfems get treated differently, in the intersection of being both perceived as a woman and also in being trans. It’s been compared to misogynoir, a term used to describe how black femmes get treated differently in specific ways from black men or white women. But i’m sure misogynoir still hits different if you’re mixed black, different people may experience it differently.

Similarly there’s some degree of ambiguity to who is and isn’t TMA from my understanding? But the primary targets of transmisogyny are obviously people who like, transitioned towards femininity. You know? The people who are gestured towards when people make man in dress caricatures. I don’t think cis women fall into that category, except maybe if you’re intersex, but i’ll bare my ass and admit that’s not something i know much about.

In short, the terms TME and TMA are helpful because a lot of the time, people who are queer or even trans still fall for rhetoric (i am not wholly immune to this i’ll admit that) that paints trans women as either hypersexual predators or unserious hysterics, and it’s useful for people who are victims of this specific type of bigotry to have names for the people most likely to by all means be queer inclusive of everyone but trans women.

[velvetvexations]

i feel like the sentiment of ‘human shields’ or ‘you should be able to use slurs (“theyfab” the one im thinking of) against a group that (you perceive as) your oppressors’ comes from like. a flow chart way of thinkin

it really isn’t math. certain women (as broad and vague as the group can be defined) absolutely have power over certain men sometimes. race is one of the main ones, but like, off the top of my head there’s also age, disability, and certain authority or workplace positions. i would even include as small as a community as like, a gathering of friends to whom ive just invited a new person. the new person is statistically gonna be shyer or more prone to being pushed out. of course there are always a million modifiers, a million past and future happenings that shape someone and may or may not add to their “power meter” (if such a thing is real and operates like a meter) but being any specific identity is not going to be the sole driving factor of all interactions, especially in micro communities with their own standards.

i guess what im trying to say is that the claim that one is oppressed in every situation due to their identity and therefore any bullying towards others of one identity just counts as ‘pushing the needle’ is disingenuous. it is much more comfortable to feel like the ‘beaten down person who is just lashing out against their attackers’ without realizing that those attacks do hurt because some of those people may in fact be just as powerless as you (not you, velvet!! example you)

Flowchart anon: forgor to mention, or course own identity can be impactful and everyone knows better than a stranger how they’ve been affected by their identity, but also I think it’s possible to harness power even when you don’t know it, or unfortunately don’t approach people that way

it's wild too because the slurs get explained away as being like Black people saying cracker and a White person telling a non-binary person of color you should get to call them slurs because they're like White people to them is wild on it's own but like

have you

EVER

seen a Black person go to the fucking mat on a daily basis for 'cracker' like TRFs do th**yfab?

Yes, obviously, Black people have regularly argued with disingenuous idiots about it all the time. But have you ever seen Black activists, out doing serious, important work, fiercely argue every single day against a massive horde of White people telling them not to? I'm not even saying that a Black person can necessarily say the word cracker without ten White people popping off in the replies. But how often do they get replied to? And how much of those White people are trying to get through that it sincerely hurts them, and not just claiming it's rhetorically hypocritical?

Because from the TRF perspective it feels like "no but we should get to use this insulting word for other people and if not you're literally killing us!" is like, the major discussion to be having! I've talked a lot before about how even I, someone massively triggered by things outside of intercommunity stuff, somehow manage to bring those issues up more than TRFs do with their incessant focus on the perceived transmisogyny of other trans people, but good Lord. Even if it WERE okay and justified, it's so obvious they care about their sacred right to be aggressive towards other people over literally anything that will ever actually help a single trans woman.

They're exploiting the concept of "punching up" to be mindlessly cruel to another group of marginalized people. And frankly that should be insulting on it's own. Even if you did buy into the explanation that the word was coined by trans women mad about some non-binary people scabbing for Wymyn's Warped Tour,* they're seriously saying that's the equivalent of centuries of enslavement and violent terror? Like yeah, God, remember that time some th**fabs got to watch a bunch of cis women play acoustic guitar while reciting bad poetry and I didn't? That was exactly like a burning cross in the yard warning me to not vote.

*AND IT FUCKING WASN'T

[genderqueerdykes]

Hello, I’m a transfemme aligned individual who very much is a man hater. (Didn’t really enjoy your statement saying trans individuals don’t harbor these sentiments :/) I still present as a man and look like a man “boy moding” much through my life. I don’t feel shame harboring these sentiments because I grew up in 2 conservative cultures from the Global South who always uphold male supremacy. I saw these normalizations growing up and my anti masculine hate stemmed from a lot of this. I also see how much of the world is extremely against femininity. I’m a very unapologetically feminine person in the small areas I have the freedom to engage with it.

However, I don’t see issues with antimasculism nor do I perceive there being any real male struggles in the world. Often times, they are brought up to shut down misogyny which doesn’t sit right with me. Not saying your post did this of course!

I do comprehend the need to lower anti masculine sentiment as I do realize it can be childish and provocative. However, I won’t blame any young feminist or annoyed woman for expressing themselves. These are normal reactions in a world that has mistreated us, not just feminine individuals but all gender diverse individuals. For me, this is like telling a young person of color to not be mad at white people. That’s kind of messed up. I can understand the potential to initiate dysphoria but I believe this is a much more nuanced discussion. Men and masculine leaning individuals have too much privilege in my views. They face no real world concerns on a high level. All of the problems are byproducts of the patriarchy and gender binaries forced on our world. It’s just such a nuanced discussion.

I’d really like to hear what you think about this. Not trying to be inflammatory at all, just wanting a discussion or some thoughts!

hello there, thanks for taking the time to send an ask and give your thoughts & feelings. i understand a lot of what you're saying from your point of view because you gave me a lot of perspective, which i appreciate. i'd like to try to point a few things out that may help to articulate another way to look at these sorts of things. i hope this will be somewhat informative, at the very least. not here to force you to change your mind, but rather just provide another perspective

i wanted to apologize and clarify something- it's not that i don't think that you're trans, i've actually been trying to make the opposite clear recently, so sorry if i was not being clear enough. i believe you when you say you're trans. you're the only person who can dictate that. you are trans because you say you're trans. what i've pointed out numerous times is that trans people can be transphobic, and that doesn't invalidate their transness. trans people can be transphobic is my point. i don't think you're not trans because you're a man hater. i just want to point out that there is transphobia, queerphobia, intersexism, and other issues at play with those lines of thinking

im genuinely very sorry for how painful things are for you. i understand how overwhelming patriarchy is when you're transfeminine, it's like a heavy mantle that never leaves. it's always there waiting to make you miserable. i appreciate you speaking up about your genuine struggles and how patriarchy and transmisogyny affect you. you have a very real experience that doesn't deserve to be talked over, either. you deserve a platform to speak, because you are a real transfemme person and you have real experiences

i am sorry for how awful society is to you and your trans siblings. i know it's hard to want to look past that pain to forgive people who have hurt you or could potentially hurt you. like, it can be a monumental struggle. and maybe it's not something that can be done alone. i can't expect you to get over the hurt patriarchy has caused you overnight. you don't have to rush through coping and accept people who have genuinely hurt you. hating individual and groups of men who have hurt you is a legitimately valid thing to do, make no mistake. you're allowed to hate individuals that you've interacted with for treating you like dirt

what i can do, as a man, is extend a listening ear and a hand and say hey. i'm glad you're telling me about this. that means this is affecting many, many more trans people than just you, and that's a massive issue. we can't let this keep happening. let's work together to help men understand the ways in which they hurt other people so we can hold them accountable once and for all and put an end to how they treat you, and everyone else.

However, I don’t see issues with antimasculism nor do I perceive there being any real male struggles in the world.

i understand why you feel that way, from your perspective. just a few things i'd like to point out to think about is that gay, queer, trans, nonbinary, genderfluid, genderqueer, interesex and other men struggle under patriarchy in just about every culture, so there are some male struggles, especially when it comes to disabled men who cannot work enough to support themselves, for example. men who are not masculine and cannot work enough are treated like garbage no matter what culture we're a part of. there are likely indigenous men suffering as we speak where you're from. mentally ill men are treated like trash and allowed to be homeless for no good reason. homeless men rarely have resources specifically for men, it's usually for homeless women in particular trans men almost universally never benefit from patriarchy, even when they pass. they are not instantly seen as cishet men. even if you live in a place where people of color are the majority of your population, for example, there are still other men who are minorities that suffer, as minorities are not always racial

Men and masculine leaning individuals have too much privilege in my views.

it's highly situational, for sure. for example, butch lesbian women do not get any extra privilege at all, in fact, butch women are treated horribly, especially when they're transfemme butch women. butch women face very high rates of physical and sexual assault. as do trans men and mascs, genderqueer people, nonbinary people, and intersex people. masculine men who are disabled generally don't have a lot of privilege, either. some men people are viewed as "less" masculine because of racial traits due to racism, same for black and dark skinned men being seen as "more" masculine due to racism. this can affect men very negatively, as very masculine black men are always seen as a danger and a threat in the United States and many other English speaking predominately white countries, which is not a good thing. it leads to black men being thrown in jail just because of racial discrimination. masc trans men can pass successfully sometimes, but not always, and are often outed as trans or "butches/dykes" when people find out they're trans. really, it's only a select few masculine people and men who benefit.

i see why you think and feel the way you do. i know you have suffered a lot, and i know you're in pain. i never want you to feel like i'm invalidating you and your pain. i think the hatred you feel is legitimate, i think it's just being targeted at the wrong people, presently. what has hurt you is patriarchy, not manhood or men. if we single out specific men and hold them accountable for their actions, it actually sets the tone for helping us improve how men view other people and themselves. this is the key to setting us all free is holding individual men accountable. when we say that they're wholesale trash subhumans who will continue to do this, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

we have to resist, not give in! if we continue to give in like this, it will never change. right now, we are acting as if defeated.

i'm sure many, many times in your life, you've been told that you're just an evil predator for being a transfemme. why would you be okay with doing this to someone else? that pain is unimagineable. you don't deserve that, not at all. so why are you comfortable doing it to people who haven't hurt you?

there are transfeminine individuals who are also men, so it might not be wise to say that no men struggle ever, because transfeminine people and trans women can be bigender, genderfluid, multigender, have cultural gender identities like being Two-Spirit and so on. there are trans women who identify as gay men as well, and other kinds of men. they're still trans women, so it's important to hear them out and understand that they struggle too. also profiling strangers can affect other stealth transfemmes like yourself, you may run across another transfemme in stealth who's trying really hard to pass for safety and accidentally misgender them without ever realizing

gender diversity includes all kinds of people including transmascs, trans men, bigender men, genderfluid men, genderqueer men, nonbinary men, intersex men, gnc men, and so on! there are a lot of ways to be gender diverse and men and mascs are included in that. butch applies to more than just cis women

this also hurts transfemmes who are questioning and in the process of coming out. some transfemmes and trans women still identify as cis men right now, for a variety of reasons. some just stopped identifying as cis men recently. it's very uninviting to someone who's still questioning themselves if we profess that it's okay to be men... because some transfemmes are still men. we need to let questioning people take their time

we are not asking you or anyone else to forgive patriarchy or toxic masculinity, quite the opposite! we do not want these things, either. we do not want you to have to drop what you're doing and prioritize toxic men who have genuinely harmed you and others. we want to abolish toxic masculinity and patriarchy. we want to undo the harm they cause. what we are trying to do is educate men and let them know this is not the way it has to be. that it literally doesn't have to be like this. we can change this if we work together. if we never truly challenge patriarchy at its source- those who actually genuinely benefit from and uphold it- we can never bring it down. we have to challenge those men on this. we have to tell them it's wrong. we have to be willing to engage with those men in conversation in a civil fashion so they can interpret information, instead of react with fear or anger.

you'll never hit your mark if you keep aiming for the wrong target

i hope these are couple things to think about, if you'd like to ask any more questions or let me know about anything else feel free to do so, i may not have all the answers for everything and i don't intend to tell you how to think, but i hope these make sense and are at least somewhat informative in some way even if you don't see eye to eye with me. take care of yourself for now

edit: as others have pointed out, masculine queer individuals may no longer feel safe around you if you state this openly, and there are many masculine queer people who haven't hurt you, so it's not a good idea to make other people feel unsafe. i know you feel unsafe, but making others feel unsafe isn't the answer in this situation