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autisticandroids · 2 years ago

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Have you read Apokteino's Bone Trilogy? What did you think of it?

i have! i've actually read all four of apokteino's big four darkfics. i like bone in that it's interesting and well written, but i really wouldn't recommend it or reread it, except in certain circumstances. this is because it's just like, a super miserable read. like it's not very fun and it's SUPER depressing.

however, it's a really interesting fic to compare to the rest of the big four because it has some unique elements, so i definitely recommend reading it if you're interested in it for that reason. all of the lesser triad can really be seen in various ways as dry runs for with understanding, though of course they also have their own merit outside that context.

i'm gonna try to rewrite the big comparison essay that tumblr ate on saturday. so, the following discussing will assume familiarity with the plot of with understanding, but not with the lesser triad of major apokteino darkfics, which are: hesitation, the when series (when all is lost/when the road is as dark as my fears), and the bone trilogy (bone/scarred/unbroken).

here are some various sources to read the now-deleted fics

also, before we start i'd like to thank @astermacguffin, who i've had a lot of conversations about all these fics with, and whose various posts on apokteino and darkfic and evil deancas i might not always agree with but have absolutely influenced me and my opinions on these fics. they're worth reading as background for this post. honestly i'd really just like to dedicate this post to aster because he's gonna love it.

anyway, four thousand words of discussion below. spoilers for all four fics, and obviously, trigger warnings for discussion of rape, abuse, and general violence under the cut.

so i'll start with plot summaries of the lesser triad.

hesitation

hesitation is a canon divergence from season four. in this fic, as part of his metaphorical seduction of dean to the angels' cause, cas is ordered under pain of death to literally seduce dean in order to ensure his loyalty. cas does not want to have sex with dean and is terrified, however, dean does not know this and thinks that cas is coming onto him of his own free will. dean is sweet and kind to cas during sex and works to ensure cas' pleasure, which kind of fucks with cas' head because the sex isn't actually consensual.

canon continues as in the show up through the beginning of season five, with the addition of dean and cas' sexual relationship (which continues consensually after cas rebels). however, cas has some obvious issues and trauma that dean doesn't understand, plus he gets slutshamed by some other angels, so dean eventually figures out something is up and gets cas to talk about what's going on. when dean finds out that he has been unknowingly raping cas, he freaks out, goes into a huge guilt spiral, and they break up.

however, eventually they work through their issues and get back together. happilyish ever after.

2. when

when is a canon divergence from swan song, the only difference being that instead of being resurrected as an angel at full power, cas is resurrected in the same state that lucifer exploded him, i.e., as a human/fallen angel. dean and cas continue hunting together instead of dean going to lisa.

dean resents the fact that cas was resurrected and sam (and to a lesser extent bobby) weren't, plus the fact that cas, now human and useless, cannot resurrect them. as a result, and for some other more complex reasons i will get to in the discussion, he channels his rage and grief about sam's death into beating and raping cas, which eventually evolves into just raping cas when he feels lonely and needs comfort.

cas accepts this because he is entirely alone in the world except for dean and basically trapped with him because he is cut off from heaven and has no human connections, but also because he feels on some level like he deserves it (as a representation of the heaven that has taken everything from dean), that he's useless and that to serve dean or be used by dean is his purpose. cas develops some extreme trauma responses to dean's treatment of him, most notably he blacks out whenever dean gets violent or makes moves to start raping him. cas also prays for mercy on sam's soul.

eventually, an angel comes down from heaven and informs dean that sam is no longer in hell and his soul is in heaven, because heaven heard cas' prayer. dean freaks out but doesn't really talk about it, and the violence against cas stops completely, but they don't discuss it. they continue hunting.

like in both canon and with understanding, law enforcement believe dean to be a serial killer. like in with understanding and unlike in canon, they are extremely motivated to catch him and a credible threat to his and cas' lives and freedom. dean makes a mistake that leads them to his and cas' temporary home base and cas is captured and arrested.

initially cas is treated as dean's accomplice, but once the police? fbi? i forget who catches him, i think it's the police, but who gives a shit, notice his extreme trauma responses and the signs of physical abuse on his body, they reconsider and classify him as a brainwashed victim. a police officer comes and talks to him and tries to get him to work through some stuff.

eventually dean turns himself in out of guilt for the shit he's done to cas and to save cas. he works through some stuff with police officers and eventually they let him see cas, who he apologizes to.

cas breaks out of protective custody and rescues dean, but forces dean to promise that cas will be in charge of everything from now on, and they go on the lam together. happilyish ever after.

3. bone

bone is the most extreme canon divergence. dean stays in hell much longer than in canon and becomes a hardened torturer. instead of season four happening, the angels decide to create their own apocalypse. dean is resurrected to a world where humans and angels are in open warfare against one another and angels are losing.

dean is a torturer for the human side, and tortures angels for information. but eventually he decides to try to brainwash and stockholm syndrome an angel instead, and he happens to pick castiel. it works, and castiel breaks and is taught to serve and obey dean.

however, once cas is broken, dean starts to develop affection for him, then sympathy, and then finally guilt for what he's done. they begin a sexual relationship. due to the brainwashing and stockholm syndrome, cas is intensely traumabonded to dean, but no one, including dean, knows how to undo that, and cas is given his own free choices, but he always chooses dean anyway. also, the tragic twist is that cas is the only angel this brainwashing could have worked on, because it turns out he is the one who raised dean from hell, which changed him, making him capable of emotion in a way other angels are not.

cas and dean exist in a society with other people who know their history, including anna and gabriel who are both unequivocally on cas' side, and their relationship is very much overseen by other people. everyone thinks it's fucked up, but there really isn't anything to be done about it. cas is brainwashed to a super extreme degree, and no one knows how to fix him, so they just let him stay with dean. happilyish ever after.

okay. now discussion.

so, hesitation is kind of the odd man out here, inasmuch as... it has the same basic premise as the other three, which is essentially that cas experiences sexual trauma that bonds him irrevocably to dean, despite the fact that dean was involved in creating that trauma, but in hesitation, it's not dean's fault. dean is in fact as much a victim as cas. i think hesitation is probably sort of... the furthest flung from the other three. there's definitely some stuff you can see that's connected to with understanding, particularly cas' self-victim-blaming and complicated relationship to his own desire for dean, but i think the nature of that difference puts hesitation in a really different category than the other three. because even if the traumabond was created with dean, it's still essentially the difference between a victim remaining involved with their abuser, and a victim of abuse getting involved with someone else and having to work through that. zachariah is the perpetrator in this case, not dean. and that's not to say hesitation is unrelated to the others! i used to think of hesitation as, well, rapefic for cowards, on account of the fact that it had all of the trauma of rapefic but dean's complicity was totally sidestepped. now that i know that it was part of this greater series, i like it a lot more. i would also definitely say that hesitation is the only one of apokteino's lesser triad i would genuinely recommend outside of the context of supplementary reading for with understanding. it's just a genuinely good fic and you should check it out. i recced it, actually.

when is kind of... well, when is definitely and fairly obviously the closest to an actual dry run for with understanding. and that makes it really frustrating because like... well, when isn't very good.

when basically has three major flaws, and one big virtue which makes the flaws even more frustrating.

the first flaw is that dean's characterization is just like. it's just nothing. like the justification given for him to be horrifically beating and raping cas is like. well, okay, in the first one, which is entirely cas pov, cas speculates about his motivation. the motivations he comes up with are that either 1) dean is punishing cas as a way of lashing out against heaven, since it's heaven's fault sam is in hell, or 2) dean is actively trying to send himself to hell to be with his brother. there may be more reasons that cas postulates, i forget, but those are two big ones, and they make sense. however, in the second one, we see dean explain himself:

Dean looks away. He's not sure if Fitz is acting like he wants to be convinced – or isn't convinced, and trying to prove it – to get Dean to talk, or because he actually isn't sure. Either way, Dean needs to the be the killer, for Cas's sake. "It's more like … more like long periods, where I'm out of my head. And I do things because that's what there is. Hanging on the rack or off of it." "The rack?" Dean makes an aborted attempt to wave a hand, cuffs pulling. "Tortured or torturer." "And you chose the latter." Pretty sick that he does – did – put Cas on the rack, instead of himself. "And I guess that's what makes me evil, isn't it?" He looks at Fitz.

and like, i'm sorry, but i'm not gonna mince words: that's dumb. it's essentially a semimystical answer to a psychological question. it just doesn't make much sense. and frankly it's out of character. i hate it.

the second flaw is that it's just too short. when you read when, you gain an instant comprehension of why with understanding needed to be four hundred thousand words, because in thirty thousand, when really can't quite cut it. the characters just don't have time to develop and change and learn in the same way.

the third flaw is the ending, and it's actually a flaw that when shares with with understanding, although in with understanding it's not quite as drastic. essentially, in the end, cas is back in the exact same position as he was at the beginning, with only dean's word standing between him and a resurgence of the abuse. dean's brutalization of cas, like in with understanding and unlike in bone and hesitation, is essentially domestic abuse behavior. dean isn't engaging with cas as an enemy, and he isn't engaging with cas under the influence of false beliefs. he's engaging with cas as his friend cas when he brutalizes him. while dean is no longer under the psychological stress of believing sam is in hell, and has had an epiphany about exactly how bad he fucked cas up, that doesn't necessarily mean things will change, or remain different. old habits die hard. nothing is stopping dean, once a new psychological stressor appears, from treating cas just the same as he had before, except his moral convictions, which didn't stop him the first time. he could easily find ways to justify himself. and on cas' end, he's just as totally dependent on dean materially as he was at the beginning of the fic, and while he's worked through some stuff and might run if dean started up again, he also might not, because it's not like a few conversations are enough to really teach new habits of mind.

and then like... the big virtue of when is that in concept it's soooooo good and juicy. the heavy emphasis on outsider pov, especially the law enforcement pov which is really a treat just like in with understanding, except i like it more in when because it's about canon cas rather than fbi agent cas who is a good protagonist for wu but way too comprehensible to his colleagues at the bau. the way that dean and cas escape and hide by depending on the kindness of someone dean's saved. the idea that dean is brutalizing cas because he's actively trying to go to hell to be closer to sam, which is just so juicy i can't stand it because it simultaneously gets at the horror of the brothers' codependency and also gets at dean's tendency to not care who he's hurting as long as he hurts himself worse. the fact that cas is like if you had asked i would have given you my body willingly!! the fact that cas was already in love with dean when the violations start!! that's so crazy to me!!

a version of when that's a hundred and fifty thousand words, where dean stays in prison for months while cas recovers and goes to therapy in some kind of group home but is also unable to really integrate into human society because he is genuinely alien. more emphasis, almost hesitation style, on the idea that cas already wanted dean, and cas having to pick apart what desire remains there from the horror of being repeatedly raped. like the most unsatisfying thing about with understanding, to me, is how cas isn't really cas, and how dean and cas have no prior relationship. and like i do like some of the stuff in with understanding that comes from that, such as the fact that cas kind of becomes canon cas via trauma in some ways, and the fact that with understanding is like a dark subversion of the soulmate trope, but it does kind of make me crave a version where cas is himself and deancas are themselves you know? and when could be that. a much more complex and comprehensive outsider pov where we dig into juicy elements that when leaves on the table, such as the speculation that cas may have been in a cult (and we dig into how the outsiders are obviously wrong but maybe on some level they were right). maybe also some outsider pov from hunters and/or people dean has saved such that we actually see outsider pov on the nature of dean and cas' relationship from people who understand more of the context, and also such that when cas breaks dean out and they go on the lam, they can at least partially integrate into a community that will keep their relationship stable. or perhaps, for a tragedy, we see their relationship begin to deteriorate again once cas is dependent on dean again. make dean's motivation be about going to hell with sam, and really dig into that, explore dean's willingness to hurt other people as long as he's also hurting himself. when could be the perfect fic. it literally could. just for me.

and then bone is like... the thing about bone is that most of my thoughts about it revolve around it being a kind of counterpoint to with understanding and when. like before i talk about it i'm gonna say a couple of the things i really like about it which don't have that much to do with that.

the experiential descriptions of cas' brainwashed state are so fabulous and chilling, and that is i think the thing from bone that really made it into with understanding, although in bone it's so much clearer and more visible, which, you know, on the one hand, feels less real, but on the other it's soooooo chilling, you're really forced to think about it, to consider cas' experience, plus it draws your attention to similar moments in with understanding and makes those much more unsettling.

the side character stuff is fabulous, i especially liked ellen and anna, but really all of it is good.

the thing where angels can't feel and therefore could never have been broken like cas was, but the fact that cas had saved dean from hell, had been changed by him, on some level already loved him, and that's what made him vulnerable to dean's brutality is like such a juicy little tragedy.

but like. now let's compare.

like, i already pointed this out, but when and with understanding both start from like, a kind of domestic abuse situation that is enabled by circumstances that don't really change. bone, on the other hand, is like... dean is originally engaging with cas as an enemy combatant, and this is enabled by the fact that they are on opposite sides of a war. but these circumstances do genuinely change. bone creates a situation almost more akin to hesitation, where the main conflict and question is: you end up with a cas who has this trauma bond created by trauma which is absolutely in the past, and it can't be gotten rid of, so how do you live with it? as opposed to with understanding and when where it's more like how do you keep dean and cas from backsliding into an already established abusive dynamic. and the thing is bone dean is still culpable, and the level of like... so traumatized he's barely a person anymore that cas is on in bone is unreal. but it's more a question of: dean is not going to backslide into traumatizing cas again, but how can dean be prevented from accidentally or on purpose taking advantage of cas' traumatized state? how can cas be helped to rebuild his sense of self, is that even possible? cas wants to stay with dean, but can that desire be taken seriously if it's a result of horrific damage inflicted on cas that must be recovered from? is cas' consent meaningful? what if cas can never recover, does that change the answers to the other questions? if he can never recover, is it alright to allow him to be happy with dean? these are all super crunchy questions and they're like a really fun alternate take on the same basic premise that hesitation, with understanding, and when are all taking on.

and like the thing about. okay i'm gonna talk about with understanding for a moment. the thing about with understanding is that it rests on all of this exceptionalism and individualism and psychologizing of dean's behavior. when actually a lot of it is circumstantial? like the thing about with understanding is that with understanding dean if he was in normal circumstances would probably be a manipulative, emotionally abusive person who would be likely to pressure people into things including sex, have absolutely zero boundaries, and might even be inclined towards some light stalking, but he wouldn't be kidnapping anyone. he would probably stay in the category of "super shitty boyfriend" rather than "fbi manhunt." but the thing is his circumstances aren't normal. like, if you are dean winchester in the world of with understanding, it's almost a sane thing to do to temporarily kidnap your soulmate just so you can meet once and then let him go. it's still really awful, but it makes circumstantial sense because you KNOW that that will allow you to meet in heaven, and otherwise he would arrest you. it's really bad, but it's not as insane a move as it would be if nearly anyone else did it. it makes sense. and then once you have your soulmate kidnapped temporarily, it's not that big of a leap to just... give into temptation and not let him go. add onto that the fact that dean is just used to kidnapping and torturing people (those people are usually demons, but still), has access to all of these sometimes magical tools and weapons and equipment and a bunker in the middle of nowhere, is totally outside society and has no external observers in his life to sanity check him and no one to really hide from, and is used to being on the wrong side of the law and totally confident that that won't be a problem for him, and it's like... yeah. like the thing is if wu dean had all the same personality traits but was a car mechanic, cas would never have been in that situation. and like, the way everyone reacts to dean like they're so shocked that he treated cas "well" and that he's so capable of a certain level of basic self-awareness it's like... well of course! most people who commit crimes like the one dean has are probably way more dysfunctional than dean is in various ways, because they need to get over more barriers like "fear of being caught" and "the realization that oh my god i'm planning a kidnapping" and "having to go to work and leave their victim at home" and other such trivialities that dean's lifestyle makes irrelevant. of course every crime is made possible by circumstance, but dean's situation is particularly unique.

but that doesn't mean that because wu dean is less dysfunctional than the average kidnapper, he's easier to fix with psychotherapeutic solutions. indeed, quite the opposite! the barriers to him committing horrific acts are inherently lower due to his circumstances, which means that he could be the healthiest guy in the world and he would still be a lot more dangerous than john q. average. to pull an example from canon: one time sam has a sexual fantasy about rowena and it freaks him out so bad that he yells at her and slaps her in manacles. this is a pretty horrifying and misogynistic act, but sam is like... he's a fairly regular guy. he has some hangups about sex, but not to an abnormal degree. but he does have a set of magic manacles, and an occupation that has desensitized him to violence and chaining people up, and a pre-bottled justification (she's evil!) that says it's okay to be violent to rowena, and so this happens. you get my meaning? so fixing wu dean with therapy is like... it's kind of the last thing i'd reach for, you know? it's cathartic for cas, but it's not effective.

and like wu dean's circumstances don't really change! hell, in the end, dean and cas are ONCE AGAIN isolated together in the wilderness. and sure, cas is kind of choosing to be there, but he's also trapped by the fact that he's a wanted fugitive. it's so much more effective than the cuff because there's no more soft landing waiting for him back in normal society, only a hard prison cot.

anyway the thing about bone is that in bone the change is almost all circumstantial. like yeah dean does have like a guilt epiphany and shit, and obviously the pathology of hell trauma does affect dean's actions as a torturer. but the problem and solution are not situated in that pathology. in the end, the main thing that happens to fix things is that cas is no longer considered an enemy, and he is integrated into a society which contains people who care about and can care for, keep an eye on, and sanity check both him and dean. there will never again be circumstances in which it is easy for dean to torture and brainwash him. you know? and that really highlights what's going on in when and with understanding.

#rape tw #abuse tw #spn #asks #anonymous

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bustyasianbeautiespod · 1 year ago

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Episode 75 Transcript: Every Good Episode of Supernatural is Secretly a Menace to Society

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello! My name is Grey.

C: And my name is Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: So, for today's episode, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 15: "Death Takes a Holiday," written by Jeremy Carver, directed by Steve Boyum. We are back, baby! We're back.

C: Yeah, we're- we have returned. It's true. For three months, we weren't both Asian, and now, look at us! [G laughs] Both Asian again. It is nice to be back. I haven't looked at a man who was under 40 years old for so long. [G laughs]

G: No, you know what? When this episode started playing, I was like, giggling, twirling my hair.

C: I was like, "Holy shit, Sam's hot! Has he always been this hot?" [laughs]

G: No like, 'cause like, in one of the flashbacks, Sam has like, a very rosy cheeks, and I was like, "Good Lord! Sam Winchester, what happened to you?" [C: Yeah. Yeah.] He's so handsome. To all who don't know, we left BABPod for like, three months to do a Good Omens podcast [laughs], which was very fun, and with that show, I really did need to read the subtitles 'cause I couldn't understand their accents. And going back to the Supernatural is like, "Look! I can understand their accents. I don't even need to turn on the subtitles or anything." And so for a while, I just turned off the subtitles, and [laughing] I literally could not understand them. [C laughing] Like, I was lying to myself so severely. So I had to turn it back on again. Fun stuff! [C: Yeah.] I probably can understand their accent if Dean didn't speak like that [C: No, exactly!], but Dean does speak like that. So I cannot for the love of God understand anything.

C: This episode was fine. Like, I think I understand that it's probably on the- is it on the like, better half of Supernatural episodes?

G: I think it is. I think it is, yeah.

C: But like, I didn't feel particularly anything about it except for when Castiel was on screen! Then, it was the best thing that has ever happened to anyone.

G: You know what? 'Cause you watched this episode before me, and you were like, "Oh my god, Cas! Cas is here!" but like, I couldn't figure out, like, when in the episode. Also because I just completely misremembered this episode. I thought it was the Death episode.

C: I thought it was "Appointment in Samarra," yeah.

G: Well, no, I actually thought it was like, "Two Minutes to Midnight" or whatever that episode is where Death shows up. And I mean, probably you're thinking, "That's not true, because the fucking, you know, Famine still hasn't showed up and all that," so like, obviously, Death wouldn't have shown up yet, but for some reason I just associated this with the nice like, Death music cue, so when the episode started, I was like, "Oh, I don't think Death is gonna show up in this episode. Wait, where the fuck is Cas gonna show up?" So like, when Dean goes, "What the hell?" [C: Yeah!] And Cas goes, "Guess again," I was screaming, I was cheering, I was like, "He's here." It is so wonderful to see Cas again. Like, it is wonderful to see Sam again. It's a bit wonderful to see Dean again; honestly, I was very enthused by him this episode.

C: Really?

G: Yeah, unfortunately. For the audience-

C: He loved making three sexual assault jokes in a row, though. He definitely enjoyed doing that.

G: He definitely did. I did- like, when he did the Demi Moore joke, I was like, "He's back! He's here, on my screen, right now." But like, for real, though, I legitimately had so many moments throughout the three months where I would just sit down and like, think about Supernatural and be like, “I hauve Covid.” [C laughs] Like, it's crazy how much distance makes the heart grow fonder. I was like, thinking about these men and jeans and everything.

C: I wasn't, but it's nice to see them again.

G: November 5 happened while we were away, and so that was on my mind and my timeline. But also, like, I don't know, for some reason, like, I was thinking about Season 1 specifically, and how fond I was in Season 1 and everything.

C: Yeah? 'Cause it's probably bad.

G: No like, but every time I think of Season 1, I'm like, "What a wonderful time that was. It was such an amazing time watching Season 1 of Supernatural." And then, I think back to actually watching Season 1 of Supernatural, and it was literally not a good time.

C: What was the post about high school that you reference sometimes?

G: "I was so happy in high school. I mean, in the moment I wasn't. But in retrospect, I was." [C laughing] Like, that's how I feel about Season 1 of Supernatural.

C: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you can only be fond of it because you don't have to do it again, I think.

G: Yeah, that's true.

C: Are you gonna ask what I thought was gonna happen this episode?

G: Oh, yeah! So what do you think was going to happen this episode, Crystal, before you knew it or seen it or everything?

C: Yeah. So I knew that there was an episode in Supernatural where Dean has to take over for Death and like, wear Death's ring or whatever for a day. And judging from the title of this episode, I thought that this was that episode. That turned out to not be the case. I also know that there is an episode where, like, Death eats pizza with them [G: Chicago-style.], and I thought that this would be the episode, and it wasn't. [laughs] Nothing that happened in this episode is something that I was aware of beforehand. Besides the "What the hell?" "Guess again."

G: You know what? Me too. That is also the exact same thoughts about this episode that I possessed prior to watching it. I thought it was literally every other episode that involves a reaper. [laughs] And then it wasn't. And also, Cas is there.

C: We haven't seen him since 4.10. No wonder we quit.

G: We start off- Okay. "Then" sequence.

C: Wait, are we doing the "Then" sequence? Yeah. 'Cause it's been a while!

G: What are your thoughts on the "Then" sequence? Been a while for us. It's really been a while.

C: And for the listeners! My only thought about the event sequence is that it's incredibly funny that, in the voiceover, when Sam says, "I'm a better hunter-"

G: [laughing] Yeah!

C: "- stronger, smarter," on "smarter," he's fucking Cara. [both laughing] Like, okay!

G: So true. I support her. And he literally is thinking with his dick, probably.

C: Yeah, "If you were smart, you would have sex with someone during the 'man has sex with someone and starts murdering people' case." [G laughs] You're so right.

G: I can't believe that was last episode. I mean, I can, given the stuff that they say about it in this scene, but I also cannot. So we have the teaser portion. You know what? 'Cause we've been away from Supernatural, and we've been away from this kind of TV for a while, you know, like, this kind of show. I miss this kind of format on a TV show. It's so like- it means nothing. [laughs] But it means everything to me. [C: To you.] Yeah, we start the episode with two guys, like, leaving a bar, and they're talking about fantasy football, just, you know, fun banter. For them. For me, it means absolutely nothing. [C laughs] And then a guy like, shows up in front of them, asking for change. They say no, guy pulls out a gun. There's like, an employee at the back of the bar like, throwing trash [laughs] into the trash bin. He sees all this happening [laughs], and he decides that what needs to be done is that he's going to slam that trash bin cover so loud and so raw and startle the guy with the gun. [C: Yup.] I just- I cannot figure out the logic behind this action.

C: I think it was- it looked like the employee was just like, also startled. Like, it was like, not intentional.

G: He wasn't!

C: He's quite frozen.

G: Ah, okay. I understand. It's less "startled," I guess, and more like, his attention has turned to this and his hand, like, slips or something.

C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess that's what I meant.

G: Well, whatever. This startles the guy with the gun, and he pulls the trigger, shoots the guy, and, you know, there's like, a very long and arduous CPR scene [laughs] where one of the guys tries to CPR the other guy.

C: It's not even that arduous. Yeah, yeah. It's very lowkey.

G: But I- I don't think you should do that! [laughs] First of all, like, he got shot in the heart, [C laughing] and we like, we know this for a fact 'cause like, it says in this script that he got shot in the heart.

C: Yeah, let's shove more of that blood out, baby! Let's go!

G: [laughing] And this guy's solution to this very glaring problem is to put continuous pressure on his heart. Like, to pump his heart? What's wrong with you?

C: I mean, maybe- I guess I don't know that you're not supposed to do that. Like, are we spreading misinformation about emergency medical care? Okay, I'm gonna look up "CPR after being shot in the heart." [laughs]

G: CPR is for like, when there's no air going around, so like, the blood- the heart has stopped pumping. But I feel like if the heart is the issue, like, if your heart is like, damaged-

C: Yeah, it seems like you're not really supposed to use it for a gunshot victim unless they've stopped breathing, but even then, I think perhaps not if they've been shot in the heart.

G: [laughs] In the heart, yeah.

C: But I mean, maybe like, the friend didn't notice where he'd been shot? Like, it is just a panic response. It's not bleeding, so like, how would they know?

G: Yeah. First of all, it's not bleeding. Second of all, like, there is a bit of an inconsistency, because when the guy does show the bullet wound or whatever that was, it was in a different place. Like, it's like, a little bit like, in the stomachy area. So okay, fine. [C: Yeah.] This guy's like, "I'm alive!" I mean, the guy wakes up and is like, "Stop trying to kiss me, bro." [laughing] And then, yeah, he's like, "I'm alive. Amazing. Can you believe it? It's a miracle." He doesn't say, "It's a miracle." He says it later. But you know. Wow! Miracle. And then, you know, 'cause I know that, like, this is the splash screen for the season, but also, I forgot. So when it happened, I was like, "Good Lord! [laughs] Okay!" We're going at it this season.

C: The screaming?

G: Yeah, the scream, the flappy wings. It's the angel season!

C: So we're at a diner, and Sam's on the phone with Bobby. apparently, Bobby's found them a case in Wyoming, where no one has died in this small town in the past week and a half, but like, in a weird way. People with like, terminal cancer are totally fine. Some other guy got shot, you know, point-blank in the heart, and he was fine. And the whole time Dean is just like, affecting like, he's not as invested in this or whatever as he normally would be.

G: First of all, I want to point out that later on in this episode, Cas reveals that Sam is not talking to Bobby, he's talking to Cas.

C: Well, I thought it was later- Ohh. At the very beginning? Okay. For some reason, I thought that Sam just called as Bobby for the [G: Later, yeah.] update about Revelations, about the seal, but you're right. I think when he said, like, "I recruited you guys," I think he means that [laughing] currently, right now, he's faking Bobby's voice on the phone.

G: That's such a funny thought to me!

C: It's hilarious.

G: Because It's not just like, voice. Like, there's a cadence to it. There's like, a way Bobby speaks.

C: Yeah, was he practicing in front of the mirror?

G: Like, how does it work? Is it like, he just gains, like, all of Bobby's speech patterns and all Bobby's intrinsic pop culture knowledge that he references when he speaks. How does that work?

C: Yeah, 'cause, okay, I have seen a clip where Anna like, uses John's boss's voice [G: Yes, yes, yes.] in "The Song Remains the Same." [G: The Season 5- yeah.] So I guess angels are just able to have other voices. I don't know. I think he just practices a bit. Or, I don't know. Maybe Cobby is real. Who knows?

G: Maybe Cobby is real.

C: It's cute that he called Sam. I mean, I know that Bobby is always the one who just calls Sam 'cause Sam's his work friend and Dean's his child [G: Yeah.], but yeah, maybe Sastiel's real also.

Sam says that, you know, people are calling it a miracle, but it's probably something nasty, like people making deals. Again, Dean's just not engaging with Sam, like, "Okay-"

G: [laughing] What is so funny- I didn't realize that Dean was not engaging, like- Like, I thought he wasn't engaging because he was focused on eating. So when Sam goes like, "Come on," and like, does he say, like, "Take that out" or something?

C: Like, "Get that to go," yeah.

G: Yeah yeah yeah. And so like, when he says that, Dean like, stops eating, like, he slows down his chewing and everything, and [laughing] then the sad piano music starts playing [C laughing], and I legitimately just thought that he was upset that Sam was asking him to take the food out.

C: Soo true!

G: It goes on for so long. The piano music goes on for so long, and Sam's just standing there for so long, and Dean is just not talking for so long, and so I spent so long also just thinking [laughs], "He's so upset about this fucking takeout situation. He doesn't want to put this thing on a styrofoam container."

C: Exactly. Exactly. It deserves the ceramic plate it's been on. Yeah. So that's the end of the great love story between Dean and this burger, whatever it was.

G: Yeah. Court her. Pound her. [both laughing]

C: Yeah. So true!

G: Amazing joke, yeah. It's court her, pound her.

C: Yeah, if we're doing #mentioned for BABPod nowadays, should we just read what that full post is and then reblog it?

G: [laughing] That's the entire post! The entire post is "call me a burger the way i court her. pound her."

C: So true!

So yeah, Sam's like, about to head out, but Dean is still sitting there and eating, and then he goes, "You sure you want me going with you?" and Sam's like, "Huh?" And he's like, "I don't want to be holding you back or nothing." And Sam says that he's told him a hundred times that "That was the siren talking, not me." 'Cause we leave off 4.14 with Sam being like, "So we're good?" and Dean being like, "Yeah, we're good," but apparently, in the last week, like, every single chance he gets, Dean's like, "Well, I guess that's just 'cause you're smarter and stronger than me, huh?" [G laughs] And Sam's had to be like, "No, I didn't mean it!" Hilarious.

G: No but like- I know we mentioned it last episode, I think, Dean's gripes towards Sam that episode could like, reasonably be thought of as like, the siren talking, but, like, Sam's gripes are so real, you know? Like, those are actual things he thought about.

C: Wait, I thought it was the other way around.

G: Is that- do we say that? I have forgotten.

C: No, Dean's gripes are, "I can't trust you anymore," like, "You've been keeping secrets and like, you don't feel like my brother properly anymore," right? Like, that's real. Sam's stuff was just like, "I'm a better hunter than you," [G: "I'm better than you!"] which we've seen no evidence of.

G: The thing is like, Dean thinking that Sam is lying to him is like, "That's true." Like, Sam is lying to him. But, like, Sam thinking that, like, Dean is incompetent or isn't as good of a hunter as him is like, that's not a quantifiable truth. For Sam, it's like, "Oh, Dean thinks I'm lying to him. Yeah! And I'll lie about it some more. I'll lie about not lying to him." And then for Dean, it's like, [fake-teary] "Sam thinks I'm a terrible hunter!" and like, no amount of anything can disprove or prove that. So like, "I'll just sit here and think about 'maybe I'm a terrible hunter.'"

C: Yeah, okay. I guess. Sure.

G: But also, keep that shit to yourself. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I don't- for him to still be stuck on that, like, does that mean that he suspects that it's true and it's like, digging into some kind of insecurity? Because I don't feel like we've seen any evidence of that.

G: That that's true?

C: That that's true, and that that's something that Dean is afraid of.

G: Huh. Did we ever see Dean be scared that he's not good enough?

C: For hunting? I don't think so. I don't think so.

G: For hunting specifically, yeah. I mean, there's a whole like, "You can't save everyone thing." [C: I guess.] But I feel like that's a different thing. That's a different thing.

C: They both couldn't save everyone, so, yeah. I don't know. I guess if they maybe pushed on like, how the uncle in "Family Remains" was with Dean and then got like, killed, or whatever a bit more, maybe I could see something coming out of that. But, you know, the family's totally fine that the uncle's dead at the end, so it doesn't feel like that's a thing. I guess what Sam's getting at there is like, "You're like, not willing to like, for example, let me train with Ruby" or things like that, like, "You want to stick to like, the safe hunting methods, and that's like, what's preventing you from being able to like, kill certain demons and stuff like that." Does Dean think that that might be true?

G: Yeah, I mean, it's not specifically a case thing. It's more like a overarching plot situation. I do agree with that. And I don't think Dean agrees with it in that he thinks it's a bad thing. It's more like, Dean knows that Sam thinks this, and it's like [C: Concerning?], "Well, that's horrible that you think that." Like, it's not an internal struggle for Dean, it's more like, [fake-teary] "And Sam's like, doing things again that I don't want him to do!" I mean, this episode really cements it that, like, everyone really thinks that Sam is like, fucking horrible for this.

C: Fucking evil, yeah.

G: 'Cause like, I feel like there's like, some deniability in the past episodes. Because, like, the people saying that what Sam is doing is bad are like, the angels, and like, the angels aren't particularly portrayed as benevolent creatures, and like, Dean's being an asshole. And yeah, Ruby, is being terrible too, and Ruby's trying to convince him to do it. But, like, it's more ambiguous. Like, all sides, are kind of horrible to Sam. But like, having-

C: - Pamela waste her dying words on that? Yeah.

G: Dying words, and also, like, Pamela has always been seen as someone who has more insight on, like, stuff. Like, understands the occult better than most people. Like, they go to her to consult her, so like, she must be someone who knows her shit, and the fact that someone who like, knows her shit isn't involved with the angels, actually doesn't like, the angels, you know, still thinks that what Sam is doing is bad is like, that's the thing that cements it that like, "Oh, Supernatural as a show is like, trying to tell us that, like, we're supposed to think that this is a bad thing."

C: I feel like Supernatural already told us that because we're supposed to, like, consider Dean, like, a moral high ground a lot of the time.

G: Yeah, but I don't, so.

C: Yeah. But like, yeah, I guess this is like, "For, you know, the last remaining fans who aren't certain, here's our stance." So, right. So Dean gets all upset about this. Last episode, Dean was literally about to kill Sam with an axe while like, saying a line about, "Oh, tell me again how I hold you back," and Sam's not mad about that. Like, Dean, get over it! Sam's like, "Can we get past this?" And Dean thinks for a second and then goes, "Yeah, we're past it." And, I mean, I guess they are, 'cause it never comes up again.

G: Yeah. I mean, Supernatural always does this where like, they tried to connect it to the last episode, [C laughs] and then just don't follow through.

C: They just drop it, yeah.

G: Honestly, I support it. I feel like it will be tedious to keep bringing it up, too. Like, we can just take it as like, something simmering instead of something said, you know?

C: Yeah.

G: We go to the house of the guy who like, got shot earlier, and [laughs] apparently, Sam and Dean has introduced themselves as bloggers, which is truly wonderful. [C: Yeah.] And Jim, the guy who got shot, is asking like, "Okay, so like, you guys, what's the name of your- you guys's blog?" And Sam is like, "Yeah, we're flooredbythelord.com."

C: [laughing] Iconic.

G: I mean, Dean obviously finds this so amusing that they're flooredbythelord.com. Sam starts interviewing the guy about the miracle that he experienced, and the guy's like, "Oh, bullet in my heart and everything, but it's still going." He says that, you know, "I wasn't a saint, wasn't father of the year, but when I got shot and nothing bad happened, I just knew the Lord was giving me a second chance." And this entire time, we're on Dean's face. The guy goes, "I had this feeling that angels were watching over me." Lot of things for Dean because that's the thing that Mary tells him, and also, angels literally are watching over him now, but not in a good way. So that's fun.

C: This is true. Yeah. I mean, he's trying to believe it's in a good way. But yeah.

G: Does Dean think of like, this as like, a benevolent second chance? Was there like, ever a time where Dean thought that?

C: Didn't he- in "Monster Movie" or something, didn't he say some shit to Jamie about how like, something bad happened and then he was given a second chance, and like, he's gonna use it to like, save people or like, he knows it means he's doing good or some shit?

G: Wasn't he like, "I'm gonna use it to fuck you raw" or something? [C laughing] Like, it wasn't like, a flirting method? I mean, he's probably being sincere, and we are supposed to think he's being sincere, despite the flirting and everything. [C: Yeah.] But I mean, it's just such an odd thing. Because, again, we've mentioned over and over again, Season 4, so full of it, like, Dean being like, "And I was put here on Earth again to save people" and then just an absolute fucking menace-

C: [laughing] Just goes around harassing women, yeah.

G: Yeah. [laughs] Is an absolute menace to everyone he's supposed to be saving, so. Yeah, I don't know.

C: Jim says a stupidass the line where he's like, "I wouldn't expect you guys to understand." And the only point is for the viewers to be like, "Oh, Jim, but little do you know, they are having angels watch over them, you silly little man!" [G laughs] but like, they literally introduce themselves as Christian bloggers. [G: No, exactly!] Like, obviously, you'd expect them to understand. It's just for the viewer to be like, "Oh-ho-ho-ho, Jim!" And well, you're annoying, Jeremy Carver. I'm annoyed by you.

G: They're literally the guys behind flooredbythelord.com! You would expect them to understand!

C: Exactly. If anyone would understand, it would be the flooredbythelord.com bloggers. [G laughs]

G: Sam is, you know, continuing the interview. "Did you go through a crossroad? Did you see someone with black eyes or red?" I mean, the black eyes question is always so fascinating to me because, like, just say- How would you word that to convey what you're trying to say, which is like, the entire eyes are black?

C: Just say their entire eyes are black.

G: What if they have beautiful, striking black eyes?

C: What if? Yeah, I don't know. I guess USAmericans just call it brown eyes, even if it's closer to black. Usually, I'd say that Dean's the one who like, is asking the more aggressive, off-putting questions.

G: Yeah, but they're trying to do a whole like, "Dean is taken by this guy's like, 'angels are watching over me'" thing.

C: Yeah yeah yeah. Their doing a thing about Dean believing in miracles is equally a thing about Sam not believing in miracles this episode, and that's fun enough, I think.

G: I think Sam's painted as the more grounded-in-reality person in this episode. I mean, I think back to "Houses of the Holy."

C: Of course.

G: In that episode, like, Dean, was the one who was like, grounded in reality, and Sam off in the "I'm trying to save people!" but I guess the difference there is in that one, people were dying, and this one is "people aren't dying." And like, yeah, maybe they're equally like, miracles. I don't know. Because I feel like this is the opposite of that episode.

C: Yeah, angels were supposedly inciting people to kill in "Houses of the Holy," and now it's people are like, not dying. Yeah.

G: And also like, the whole, you know, Sam is like, "We shouldn't stop the angel because the angel is doing something good by killing these people, just like, in, you know, early Christian martyrdom [laughs] situation."

C: Just like in Death Note.

G: Just like in St. Katherine. But- [laughs] those are such a funny things to say. "Just like in Death Note" and then "Just like in St. Katherine of Alexandria." So true, though! And here, Dean is like, "But shouldn't we stop people from dying? Like, isn't that our goal?" And yeah. I think it's interesting that for Sam, it's like, more focused on like, "Is it supernatural or not? And is that supernatural thing a good thing or not?" And for Dean it's like, "But like, are people dying?"

C: Which I think is not their usual MO, right? G: Yeah. I also don't think so. Yeah, which is why I like, went way back to Season 2 [laughs] to like, compare an episode to it. 'Cause, like, I don't think this is usually their go-to. Like, Dean is a lot more like, moralist, you know, in terms of supernatural blah-blah-blah.

C: Yeah. I mean, I guess for Sam, like, "Houses of the Holy," like, it didn't happen in a vacuum. Like, it probably did 'cause them to become a lot more jaded about this shit.

G: Yeah, like, it was the breaking point. Or the new status quo.

C: Yeah, he wanted to believe in miracles, and he wanted to believe that, like, an angel had chosen him specifically to carry out God's will, and then it turned out it was just like, a ghost of a priest that was like, manipulating people and thinking that he was saving their souls but probably like, condemning them to Hell forever for doing murders. At that, he was like, "Okay, well, I guess that like, angels like, aren't real or whatever the fuck? Who knows?" And then, like, two years later, it's like, "Oh, no, they're real. They just like, specifically, hate your ass." Yeah, I get like, after that, being like, "Okay, I don't really believe in miracles, and anything good must come with a catch."

So we cut to the motel, where they're both checking up on deaths in the town. The cancer survivor, he's totally fine. He was clinically dead, and now he's not. No sign of a deal.

G: Also, I want to bring up, laptop in this scene. And I did try to see the label. [laughs] I did try to see the logo. And there were no, like, you know Sam's girl emo stickers-

C: Yeah, Sam's emo girl- yeah.

G: - to cover the logo, but I still can't see it. Is that like, a Season 1 thing? Sam's girl emo stickers thing?

C: I think so. I feel like there was like, a skull or something at some point. Dean says that the last person who died in this town is this like, kid named Cole Griffith who died 10 days ago.

G: Fascinating that 10 days, and he was able to master the art of ghostery.

C: Yeah, he was bored, I guess.

G: Quick learner, that kid.

C: I'm sure he was a pleasure to have in class. Dean is willing to just sort of give the job up. Like, he's like, "Well, maybe it's like, a real miracle. There's no deals, and there's no skeevy faith healers." Sam's like, "Oh, well, maybe this is 'cause like, the local reaper isn't here right now." Sam suggests that they should try to contact Cole to ask if he's seen anything, and they go to the graveyard.

G: You haven't even mentioned!

C: What?

G: First of all, Dean says "The local reaper's on strike?" which is such a fascinating idea of like, supernatural creatures going on strike. Fun stuff!

C: I mean, who would they appeal to, though? Like, Death? Like the horseman?

G: I mean, who is doing their schedules? Like, what's the bureaucracy behind this?

C: No, yeah, exactly. It's like, this is a small town. Like, you're telling me they have to assign one reaper to this entire town that is like, tiny? Like, don't they have something better to do? What are they doing in their free time?

G: Yeah, I mean, they assign one reaper here, and then that reaper dies, and Tessa comes in. So like, someone is like, telling these reapers, "Okay, you're the one doing this thing."

C: Tessa might have just heard about this and come in.

G: Yeah, but they still need to communicate to each other that "Okay, Tessa's gonna be there, so you don't have to go."

C: Yeah. Yeah. The big ol' reaper discord, or whatever.

G: [laughs] Yeah. They have Discord drama on that thing.

C: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They're blocking each other left and right.

G: Number 2, Sam goes like, "Let's talk to somebody who might," meaning the angels, and Dean says, "Last I checked Huggy Bear ain't available." He's talking about Cas in that thing!

C: Oh, right. Well, Sam doesn't mean the angels, but yeah.

G: And, I mean, the Huggy Bear is like, cute. And like, I was confused because I thought Huggy Bear was like, a nickname said somewhere else, but apparently, it's said here, and I doubt that they repeat this nickname, but whatevs.

C: They could repeat it. Uh, it's also said in 5.10.

G: 5.10. In what context?

C: Well, I don't know. I can check. [typing] Dean just calls Cas that on the phone [G: Ah!] while he's following Crowley to watch him gay kiss a guy, and then the fucking "Got him." zoom, I think probably.

G: [laughs] Wonderful, wonderful!

C: It's great, yeah.

G: Well, this is a thing that he calls Cas, then. Like, this is in his head as like, "a nickname that I call Cas."

C: Yeah. I mean, sorry, I'm just not really feeling it with Destiel. [laughs] But like, you go ahead.

G: I mean, this is- it's still not- I feel like in this seasons, it's still not the kind of Destiel that would appeal to you. I feel like there would be a time where it's a kind of Destiel that would appeal to you, but not now.

C: Yeah. I mean, we're not gonna rehash the "They're not even best friends!" argument here, so. [laughs]

G: No, but like, they are, though. [both laughing] See, we are already rehashing it.

C: I mean, I haven't seen it all, so maybe I'll change my mind. Is my diplomatic response to that.

G: Yeah. I will wear you down. We have five to six to seven or eight years left.

C: Yeah. Have I come back so different? Am I like, Came Back Wrong for the listeners right now? Was I really into Destiel when we last left off? I'm sorry.

G: You weren't. You were into Cas, and even when a Destiel thing was happening, you were very intent and clear that "I like this because of the Cas stuff, not necessarily because of the Destiel stuff."

C: Okay, good, good. [laughs] Alright.

G: I mean, even our episode where- I think it's titled "We are watching Destiel happen live," I was the one who was talking about Destiel, and you were like, "And Dean is also there."

C: "And then Cas like, looks down and blinks, and then looks to the side," [laughs] yeah.

G: From what we know of the Cas and Dean relationship to this point, what has happened between them? Let's do like, a recap. So they meet, the kitchen threat, and then we have the- the big one is the "Great Pumpkin" scene with the bench.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Cas reveals that he's been having doubts, and that he was praying that Dean would choose to save the town.

G: And then we have "Heaven and Hell."

C: Yeah, they go after Anna, which Dean is against.

G: How does that thing end?

C: Sam and Dean and Ruby came up with a plan to like, get the angels and the demons to come together, and then cancel each other out by like, fighting each other to the death or whatever the fuck so that Anna can get her grace back and then run off. One of the demons- Alastair-

G: Dean saves Cas!

C: Yeah, Dean, saves Cas from Alastair, even though I guess that wasn't part of the plan. Anna gets away. Uriel is angered but Cas holds him back with a brief touch to the shoulder or whatever and says that their business is concluded and then heads off.

G: Yeah. And then Dean cries about being in Hell while Sam looks on with no emotion whatsoever. [C laughing] Fascinating episode! Okay. Recap done. My question now is, do you think like, Dean thinks in any way fondly of Cas at this point?

C: I mean, I think he thinks of Cas as a volatile ally.

G: Yeah. There's like a line in this episode where he like, says "most angels." Most of them.

C: He's talking about Anna.

G: Oh, yeah!

C: He's met three angels. It's Anna, Uriel, and Cas. Uriel and Cas suck. That's 2 out of 3. That's most.

G: Damn. That's crazy.

C: Yeah, he doesn't like Cas.

G: Yeah, I completely forgot about Anna even if she showed her face in the beginning of this "Then" sequence. So, yeah, he doesn't like Cas. And I mean, later, like, I suppose he like, berates Cas for not showing up and everything, so.

C: Yeah, I mean, he views Cas as someone who should be helping him and isn't.

G: Yeah, I think he is aware at this point that Cas is someone that isn't as hardset on Heaven principles. I think of the "I don't know what's right or wrong here," right? Like, I feel like that's a pretty big confession that like, "I'm not particularly sure what we're doing."

C: Yeah. Yeah. But like, I don't know. I feel like, you know, him going after Anna has sort of eroded any like, trust Dean would have. It's like, "Okay, like, secretively, you feel this way, but like, it's not gonna cause you to act against or like, act for the human good or whatever, except in very small ways."

G: That's true. I mean, in a way, maybe that even makes it worse, like, "You seem to know better, and yet you do this anyway," you know. I mean, that's kind of- we'll get to it at the end of Season 4, but like, that's kind of the point of their last fight in Season 4, right? You know, Dean trying to convince Cas and everything, and Cas is like, "But I can't, because of the plan," and Dean's like, [dramatically] "We're done! Don't talk to me, we're done!" [laughs] It's so dramatic. I'm so excited for the last episode of the season, like, for fucking real. I've been thinking about it. I've been talking about it with Crystal and Crystal's been like, "Okay." [both laughing] I mean, it is okay.

C: I'll care when we get there. Maybe.

G: We go to the cemetery, and they are digging up- actually, are they digging up, or are they doing a ouija board situation? What's going on?

C: They're trying to summon the kid in some way, I think.

G: Ahh, yeah. Did they even need to do this in the gravestone? Oh yeah! 'Cause they did this in, again, "Houses of the Holy," and they did do it like, in the gravestone or something, but like, the grave is inside the church like, mausoleum, so it's not a grave.

C: They had a similar confrontation.

G: Yeah, and they had a Spongebob cloth that they turned around. [laughs]

C: Yeah, and they said something racist about it.

G: Did they?

C: One of them says, like, "It doesn't get more ghetto than this or something."

G: Ohh, yeah.

C: And then we forgot about it when we were doing the racism points at the end so we gave it 0 racism points, even though it should have gotten a racism point for that.

G: Well. [both laugh] Terrible show, honestly.

C: Yeah. [laughing]

G: The thing about Supernatural is you will talk about your favorite episode ever, and then you remember that they mentioned Busty Asian Beauties in an extended bit in it, and it's like, "Oh my god." Like, for example, in 8.17, "Goodbye Stranger," there's an extended at the beginning of that thing-

C: Oh, where the Men of Letters had Voluptuous Asian Pretties or whatever the fuck.

G: Asian Lovelies, yeah. "Scoobynatural," Dean was a fucking creep in that one, and it's like, every single one, you have to be like, "This is a wonderful episode that I like, love so much."

C: "Yeah, except for the gunk."

G: "- Also, there's this absolutely horrific bit." The only episode that escapes this fully is, of course, "Dog Dean Afternoon." [both laughing] I'm still on that thing. I'm still on that episode.

C: Wait til we get there. Are you sure? You've watched it like, more recently than some other later episodes, so can you guarantee 0 points in all categories?

G: No, absolutely not. [C laughs] I absolutely cannot guarantee anything. I think there's a little bit of homophobia in it, even.

C: Hell yeah!

G: But you know what? Again, every fun episode is Supernatural is actually secretly a fucking menace to society.

C: Yeah.

G: They're there, trying to summon this guy, whatever. Dean suddenly, like, closes the journal, starts complaining, and he's like, "What a stupid fucking job we're doing." He complains that, as we said earlier, that like, when you're killing a ghost or a monster, anything, like it's a reasonable thing to do because, like, those creatures are killing people. But, I mean, they also kill creatures that were not killing people.

C: They do.

G: So, what's up with that, Dean? What's up with that, Dean? [C laughs] But he says, "If we fix this, people are gonna start dropping dead." Actually, I haven't thought about this. 'Cause Pamela was like, alive until the reaper shit gets, I don't know, whatever.

C: Yeah. Jim's young daughter is gonna find him bleeding out from a gunshot wounds on the floor of her kitchen.

G: That's crazy! And that cancer guy's just gonna drop dead.

C: Yeah.

G: Oh, no.

C: Yeah. That's gonna be weird for the town.

G: I mean, it's gonna be weird for the town, number one, but like, it must be miserable to be the wife of that guy and like, "And, and now my husband's like, completely fine. We're gonna live together until we're 80 years old." And then, like, the next day, he's dead, and she's like, "He was already supposed to be dead, and you gave me this couple of days of hope, and now it's over, and it's more miserable, maybe."

C: Yeah, yeah, they're gonna have a lot of weird feelings about religion, I think, given that they all seem to think that God gave them a second chance. But it was like, "God gave them a trial run and they failed" is probably how some people are gonna think of it.

G: Sam goes, "I don't want them to die either. But, you know, natural order. There's a natural order." And Dean is like, in disbelief, and it's like, "You don't see the irony in that? Like, you and me, we're very unnatural order-"

C: Yeah, perhaps even supernatural.

G: "- 'cause all we do is ditch death." And Sam's like, "Yeah, but we're so special!" [both laugh] "The normal rules don't apply to us, Dean."

C: Yeah. I mean, it turns out they're right. Like, they are God's specialest little princesses.

G: I mean, they are very special. Yeah. Dean is unconvinced. He's saying, "We're no different than anybody." And Sam's like- Sam looks at him in a bit of disbelief, and there's like, a little pause in the conversation, and then he goes, "I'm infected with demon blood!" and then, like, scoffs a little bit, and then he goes, "You've been to Hell!" Sam is so funny sometimes. Sam is like, he's an absolute fucking killjoy. He's so unfunny. [C laughs] But also, he's funny sometimes, and that's what's important.

C: Yeah.

G: Do you think people think I'm like, being mean when I say that Sam's a killjoy? He is, though.

C: No. I hear people say a lot worse things about Sam.

G: No, but like, I need everyone to know that I say these things fondly. Like, I love that Sam is a bit unfunny. A lot unfunny, even. I love that he don't give a shit about being funny. That's important to me. I mean, I complained a lot in Season 1 that, like, Dean is like, the funny, goofy brother, and Sam is the serious, brooding brother, but like, as the seasons progress, Dean remains the goofy brother, and Sam has lessened on the brooding section. So now he's just unfunny. [laughs] And I support that. Like, I genuinely love that. I mean, I was annoyed with the brooding stuff, 'cause I just don't like that as a character trait, but, like, now, he's not brooding. He's just annoyed at everything, and that's important to me. We need more guys who are annoyed at everything.

C: What is actually wrong with disrupting the natural order?

G: Absolutely nothing.

C: Yeah, they have to invent the seals thing so that, like, it actually makes sense that they're trying to like, stop this from happening or whatever

G: I mean, you can claim that modern medicine is disrupting the natural order. Dialysis is disrupting the natural order. A pacemaker is disrupting the natural order. Organ transplant.

C: You could also argue that the natural order includes, like, monsters killing humans.

G: Yeah. I mean, they're naturally there.

C: Yeah, they really are. But they were gonna keep doing it even without the like, seals reveal, right? Like, they were still summoning the kid. I mean, I guess Sam's a Bible reader, so he would also think that to everything, there is a season. I mean, Dean has, in the past, been very pro "natural order," I think, so I guess that would be his reasoning, too.

G: I mean, the real issue here is that they don't even know about the reaper situation. I don't know. I feel like the Sam- the Samhain (sah-wen) one- I'm gonna start pronouncing that correctly and not the Supernatural way. [C laughs] That episode, it's- like, they knew, right, that it was a seal, but they still wanted to save the town. I don't know. I feel like that kind of dilemma is good because it's like, they're trying to do both. Here, it's like, Dean is right. Like, okay, people are not dying. So what? What dilemma are they trying to present here? Like, what's Jeremy Carver trying to say?

C: I mean, it's not exactly the same thing, but like, with Cole, it's like, "You should go away because, like, people will never get over it until you're dead." Like, is the idea with the other people-

G: Yeah. Until you're gone.

C: Yeah, until you're gone.

G: Yeah, but those people are not dead. They're alive.

C: But I guess it's like, a reaper is always gonna come in, so like, it's the false hope thing. Like, Tessa came in, and she was going to kill all of them as well, so it's not like letting things keep going would mean that they all get to live forever, no consequences.

G: I mean, that's also the same again, about organ transplants. [laughs] That's the same about a pacemaker. You're still gonna die, but like, you still do it.

C: Yeah. I mean, I feel that's different from like, miraculously not dying and then like, spontaneously dropping dead. Actually, it is pretty similar.

G: I mean, in this episode, I can assume, like, Sam has this kind of perspective, like, "What makes life worth living is the fact that it's going to end!"

C: Really.

G: I mean, yeah. I mean, I don't think so. But like, I think that's the idea that is being peddled to us right now. I don't think Sam believes it. I don't think Dean believes it. But it's an idea being presented to us by the show, I feel. I may be completely off point.

C: But maybe "There's a natural order to things" is more like, descriptive. Like, "There's gonna be a new reaper to come in to fill the void. There's gonna be like, blah blah blah blah blah. Like, that's just how it is. So if we do anything to try to stop it, it'll just cause complications."

G: They're not trying to stop it. Like, them trying to continue it is the doing.

C: No, yeah, sorry, I mean trying to stop it as in like, letting it be, like, would just 'cause more disruptions and more issues down the line.

G: Yeah. I mean, I still don't understand why they are saying what they're saying and specifically, like, why the person who is saying it is saying it.

C: I don't know. 'Cause Dean's thing this episode is also like, he's like, grateful that Heaven gave him a second chance, but like, he also wishes that he just died in 2.01 with Tessa, but like, I don't- I guess it's fine to have conflicting ideas held in your mind. A lot of people do that. [G: Of course.] So I guess that's that's Dean's thing. The interaction of those ideas.

G: I also find it fascinating that, like, Sam, who has vehemently tried to be normal, like, all of Supernatural, basically, is just out here, going like, "Yeah, I'm infected with demon blood. I'm pretty fucking fucked up in that way. Very unnatural of me."

C: I mean, I don't- Sam has tried to be- I feel like he's stopped trying to be normal for a while already.

G: Yeah. But this is like, a very, you know, vocal, very verbal confirmation that he don't-

C: I remember 3.15 or whatever, he was like, "Dean, you should just go around stealing organs from people to become immortal forever." Like- [laughs]

G: Slay. Hell yeah!

C: He seems- he has been fine with going against the natural order and not being normal for a while. And like, I do wonder- if I go back, I wonder if like, that's a change that starts after Azazel shows him what happened in his crib the night Mary died- [G: Huh. Yeah.] - or, if like, it's different. 'Cause, like, Sam, does seem to believe strongly that the fact that he's infected with demon blood means he really can never be normal 'cause it's like, something biological, and he like, believes in that shit or whatever, right? So like, I wonder if starting from the end of Season 2, that's when he gave up on being normal.

G: Yeah. Go, Sam.

C: Go, Sam!

G: Or maybe don't. I'm not actually sure [laughs] what my stances are this episode. But- and Sam is like [laughs], "I know you think of yourself as the Joe the plumber, Dean, but you're not. And I'm not. So the sooner you accept that, the better off you're gonna be." Big words.

C: I guess, in the past, all their stuff about how- like, they've always considered the other one the exception in terms of, you know, like, what happened with Sam and Dean in 3.15, and like, in "Croatoan" when Dean was like, "Oh, yeah, I totally shot this teenager's parents as soon as they got infected, but, like, Sam got infected? Don't you dare touch him," etc etc, so like, I guess this is just extending it to like, "And also we should think that about ourselves."

G: Yeah, I suppose.

C: But also, with the other person it's like- it's a selfishness thing. It is like a "You're my brother, and therefore, the rules about killing monsters indiscriminately don't apply to you." But like, I guess-

G: Yeah, it's not specifically, like, "Dean fundamentally as a person." It's just "Dean, my brother." And you know, same goes with Sam.

C: Yeah. Yeah. But I guess Sam is trying to move this into the realm as like, "We fundamentally as people are special, and you need to deal with that."

G: "Matter in the grand scheme of things." Yeah.

C: What makes that thought useful for Sam's emotional well-being or whatever? I guess it's just to justify, like, the demon blood shit, mostly.

G: Yeah. "'Cause I'm the only one who can do it, so I need to," stuff like that.

C: Yeah. And also, like, "I might be against someone else doing this, but I'm special, and because of like, my biology and being infected with demon blood already, I'm like, someone who can do this and be okay and have good intentions and blah blah."

G: And their conversation gets interrupted by a man who comes in and just starts, you know, berating them on what the hell they're doing. And there's this bit where, you know, the guy's like, "What the hell is this?" and Dean's like, "It's not what it looks like," and the man goes, "Oh, really? 'Cause it looks like devil worship to me!" And Dean's like, "What?! Noo! It's not devil worship, it's- uh-" and then he looks at Sam and like, looks back at the guy, and he's like, "I don't have a good answer," and it's pretty funny. It's pretty funny.

C: I mean, I'd just say, like, "We're friends of the deceased, and we're just holding a wake for him. Oh, is that a pentagram? No, it's not. That's just a religious thing. You don't get it."

G: The older they get, the less it will work, but, like, you know, in Season 1, when they were like, "We're in a frat, and this is our initiation!"

C: Yeah, "This is a dare."

G: But yeah, they say that they're going now, but the guy goes, "You're not going anywhere," and then a menacing, you know, voice, and his eyes like, roll back in his head to reveal the white, which is a very wonderful effect. Did he do that before?

C: I don't remember. I think they do it too much this episode, though.

G: Who has the white eyes? With Li-

C: Lilith.

G: It's Lilith, right? Yeah, it's just Lilith.

C: Yeah, I don't know what that means about his position in Hell.

G: Yeah. Good effect, though. Bit overused, as you said, but it's pretty nice.

C: Yeah, like, later, it's like, "I know that that's Alastair. You don't need to do that for me again."

G: I mean, what's fascinating is like, you know, every Alastair prior is like, a normal guy who's like, an accountant, but like, a little bit more menacing. And then we get the Alastair later and the Alastair next episode.

C: Oh, yeah. He's great.

G: And he is pussy cunt slay. Like, that man is acting. He's acting. And it's amazing. It's amazing to watch. Like, even in this episode, it's like, "Good lord! That guy's putting on a voice! [C: Sure is.] And it's an amazing voice, even." Alastair is here, and Dean recognizes him. Does Sam know yet that Alastair is the guy? I kind of missed that situation.

C: Who trained Dean to torture in Hell? I don't think so? Okay, well, Dean reveals the Hell torture at the end of 4.10. Sam overheard Alastair telling Dean that he had promise in Hell and then Dean says that he tortured people, but I mean, it's not confirmed that Alastair was the one who was doing the torturing or Dean's torturing mentor at all. It's just like, he was aware of Dean, I guess.

G: Yeah, I guess we also learn it next episode, not here, necessarily.

C: Yeah, I think it's heavily implied, though. I think Sam could have come to that conclusion.

G: I don't know if I would, though, if I didn't know that prior [C: That's true.], but I believe you. And, you know, Dean's like, "I thought you died," and Alastair's like, "Nope. Not me." I mean, at this point, the only thing that can kill a demon is the Colt and the knife, right?

C: Yeah.

G: Do they get more? It's still just the Colt and the knife in the future.

C: I'm pretty sure, yeah.

G: That's crazy. 'Cause like, there are many angel blades. Every angel has an angel blade. You can theoretically acquire many angel blades.

C: Yeah, do they try making another knife or making another Colt?

G: They may new bullets for the Colt, I believe. Supernatural really is a show about [both] what if we get a better gun. [both laugh] "Let's get a God-killing gun this time." And they literally did! They fucking got that God-killing gun. But like, they only have that one demon blade, and it's just Sam's, and they make a point of making it just Sam's. Like, it's very rarely used by Dean in future seasons. Fun stuff! You know, everything you love will come back to you tenfold or whatever [laughs], and, you know, Sam loved that fucking demon pussy.

C: What is that from?

G: My head. It came from my head.

C: Okay. [G laughs]

G: No, yeah. Sam is getting that demon blade tenfold.

C: Yeah, yeah. Getting it raw and hard. And that's what Alastair asks. "Have you been getting that demon blade raw and hard?" Except misogynistically.

G: Alastair flicks Dean, and Dean hits his head on a gravestone, and then, like, I don't know, falls unconscious. Alastair turns to Sam and like, tries to flick him, too, it doesn't work, and he goes, "Oh, you're stronger, Sam. You've been soloflexing with your little slut?" Ugh.

C: Yeah. And, you know, there's that classic Supernatural misogyny. For a few minutes, I'd forgotten.

G: With the demons, I understand them being misogynistic in that like, they existed on Earth and they were people before, so they were already exposed to misogyny.

C: No, exactly. It's when Uriel does it that I'm like, "What the fuck is up?"

G: When the angels do it, it's like, "The fuck is-" yeah. [both laugh] "You haven't been here enough to figure that out." Sam succeeds and, like, pins Alastair to a tree.

C: Yeah, far away.

G: By head. [laughs] Not "by head," by- well, maybe by head, who knows? But like, by psychic powers, you know, extracts the demon out of him and everything. Fun stuff!

C: Yeah. I wish that there had been more notice drawn to this episode the fact that both of the times that Sam exorcises a demon during this episode, he doesn't check on the vessels afterwards, and we're to presume that they're dead. I mean, Alastair's vessel is probably dead from Sam, like, slamming him across the graveyard.

G: No, because sincerely what I thought happened was like, the vessel got stabbed to a branch 'cause there's like, a sound effect.

C: No, yeah, I think that did happen. If one of the points of this episode is like, "Sam, you think you have good intentions with this demon blood shit, but, like, you don't," then I think that- I feel like the strongest argument for Sam continuing training with Ruby is that he is able to get the demons out without killing the vessels the way that the knife or the Colt does. If they like, put a little more focus on the fact that, like, this is no longer 4.04 where afterwards, he rushes over and checks if they're okay and then gets them to the hospital, like, it would like help drive home the point that, like, he's just doing this because he likes the rush of it or the power or whatever, if that's what they're going for, but like, I think that just 'cause the writers don't care about vessels, they don't think about using that path to like, help convince us, and I feel like that would have like, made Pamela's last words make a lot more sense to me.

G: Yeah.

C: Oh, well. Sam killed that guy.

C: So we cut to the motel, and, you know, this is the most important scene in the entire episode besides the one with Cas in it, where, you know, Dean's recovering, Sam asks if he wants some aspirin, and Dean says, "No thanks, House." Soo true.

G: Yas!

C: Soo true. Dean asks Sam what happened, and Sam, you know, lies to his face and says that Alastair tried to fling him, it didn't work, Alastair ran off, and he's like, "Oh, I have no idea why Alastair wasn't able to throw me. Huh?" And, you know, Dean's like, "Okay, like, if you're gonna keep your little secrets, I can't really stop you, but like, I'm not stupid." And Sam just continues to lie because he is so incredibly funny. Sam says that Bobby called- well, Bobby in quotes, because it was Cas again. [both laugh] God, that's so funny. I love that, like, Cas like, sent them on this case and then he's like, hanging around, watching, right? And it's like, "These idiots still haven't figured out that it's the fucking seal. I'm gonna have to call them again." [G laughing] So there's apparently a verse from an obscure version of Revelation that's "And he bloodied death under the newborn sky, sweet to taste, but bitter when once devoured." It should've been like "twice devoured" or something, right?

G: Yeah.

C: The reveal that you need to kill two reapers, like, came out of fucking nowhere, and it was just to like, give them some more time or whatever to like, figure out the chandelier-throwing thing or whatever. You know what I mean? There should have been something so that it wasn't so annoying that that came out of nowhere.

G: Yeah, and it's just to have like, Tessa around, honestly. I mean, it could have been like, Tessa immediately who was captured, but like, it wouldn't give Dean and Tessa talking time, which is, I guess, a big point in this episode.

C: I guess. I wish that they never talked ever and that Dean died in 2.01, just like he does, but you know. Yeah, if you kill a reaper under the solstice moon, which is tomorrow night, then a seal breaks.

G: "Tomorrow night, by the way." [C laughs] This is one of the- you know that video.

C: The caspig420 line deliveries video, yes. Gay as hell way to deliver that. Sam says that he wishes the angels were here 'cause they need their help, but Dean's like, "Nah, not gonna happen." Dean suggests that they become ghosts so they can communicate with the reaper.

G: It is so funny. I mean, Dean asks here, like, "How do you even kill a reaper?" And later, we find out that it's a scythe. Is that how you pronounce that?

C: Yeah, from like, death itself, yeah.

G: Yeah. And Supernatural really is about a hyper-specific weapon for a hyper-specific supernatural creature, and it will always be so funny to me.

C: It will.

G: What if they literally had reaper-killing bullets? Like, that would be fucking hilarious.

C: Yeah. We cut to later, and they're taking Pamela inside the motel room, and they have the most annoying conversation in the world! Like, they got her, and they drove her here. Like, you're telling me during all of those hours, they stayed completely silent, and then as soon as they get back to the motel, it's like, "I'm gonna deliver exposition in the most obvious way ever with like, bad acting, bad directing, bad writing, bad everything"?

G: Hell yeah!

C: Like, just have them have this conversation on the car. Like, I'd be way more okay with it. But it's like, you guys have been hanging out for hours, and then as soon as this door closes, it's like, "I can't even begin to tell you how crazy you are! You wanna do this, and then also do this? No way, you guys! And you also want to do these other details regarding your plan that will help the viewer know what's up?"

G: Are you sure they drove her here?

C: I mean, she couldn't have driven herself.

G: Maybe she got an Uber in 2009.

C: [laughs] Do they have those?

G: I mean, it's just I cannot imagine this conversation if that's the case.

C: [laughing] It's because the writing is bad. It's due to how the writing's bad.

G: Sam says, like, "Well, you're a sight for sore eyes," and that's something you probably say, for, like, someone who just shows up.

C: But like, how did she get here, then?

G: She teleported. She got teleported by Cas.

C: So true. But I feel like she would have- I feel like they were with each other for a while before this and that they just didn't think about it. Or maybe they weren't thinking about it, and they were like, "Oh, yeah, she totally drove herself here" without thinking about it, so who knows? Maybe that was the writing error made. Either way, the acting is still unbearable, even if this is the first conversation they've had.

G: I mean, it's fine. I didn't find it unbearable.

C: I find it unbearable. It's bad. They have a whole torturedass conversation. Sam calls her a "sight for sore eyes," and Pamela's like, "Well, that's offensive. What do you say to deaf people?"

G: We do know what Sam says to deaf people.

C: Yeah. It's "Fuck you."

G: [laughs] He signs "fuck you" to them immediately. First meeting. Go, Sam.

C: Yeah. And this is the continuation of the joke format in, like, "Everybody Loves a Clown" or whatever where it's like, you make a comment that seems maybe related to someone's disability, and then they're like "[disgruntled sounds]" about it, and it's, I don't know. It's just written by writers who I dislike. Dean wanted them to astral project or whatever. And yeah, Pamela says that "Oh my god, you're crazy! I don't wanna do this." Like, you came here.

G: "You guys are the crazy brothers." [laughs]

C: Yeah, no, but like- I guess what's also tortured about this is just that she spent time to get here, whether the writers think she could have gotten here by herself or if, like, they drove her. Like, you're telling me that she has only brought up the objections now? Like, were Sam and Dean just like, "You have to get over here, and we're not gonna tell you for what until like, we're walking up the stairs to our motel room," and she was like, "That's fine with me!" They would have had this conversation, if not during the drive, on the phone when they like, asked her to come over. Whatever. Who give a shit? She's like, "You guys don't know what you're doing, and I'm sick of being hauled back into your angel-demon Soc-Greaser crap." You came here! Whatever. [G laughs] Outsiders by S.E. Hinton reference alert. Yeah, we have another moment where, you know, Dean's like, "Oh, I also wish that I was relaxing and watching Judge Judy," and she's like, "Great. More blind jokes?" and he's like, "You know what I mean." Whatever. Whatever, Jeremy Carver. He says, "We need your help," and apparently this works.

G: So they set things up, and Pamela is sitting on this chair in front of the beds, makes Sam and Dean like, lie down. This is so funny to me [laughs] because- so Sam and Dean are lying on the beds, and Dean is lying straight, like, vertically, and then Sam, who maybe perhaps is like, too long for the bed, [C laughs] lies diagonally. [C: Slay.] It's so wonderful! That guy is so tall it's unreal. And Pamela, like, does a little chant, and it's showtime! Dean sits up, and the room has changed color, and Dean goes like, "Well, nothing like shooting blanks. What's plan B?" [laughs] Why does he speak like this? But okay, go Dean. Pamela doesn't respond to this at all, and Dean looks at Sam, who is still unconscious in the bed, but then he turns over, and Sam's there! And he looks over his shoulder to the bed, and he's there, and he goes, "Oh, I'm so feeling up Demi Moore."

C: Ding.

G: And like, I physically recoiled. I recoiled.

C: Yeah. Remember in "Wishful Thinking" when like, this teenager wished that he was invisible so that he could like, spy on women in the showers?

G: Yeah.

C: And like, they treat that guy with like, so much derision, as like, they should. And like, they literally run over him in their car and everything just to like, show how that guy's like, gross and bad and you shouldn't like him. And then, like, Dean does the exact same thing. He later suggests that they go to Victoria's Secret and like, peep into those changing rooms top. And it's like, okay, so like, what- What are your policies? [both laugh] Like, what- Is it fine that- Why is it fine for Dean to do it? Like, is it just because- I don't know. It's like, either, like, they think that because Dean is like, hot, like, there's just inherent consent in any interaction that's sexual that he has with a woman because, like, everyone would like, want that already. Or like, it's like, "Next to Dean, women aren't people, but like, next to this guy who's like, less attractive and not a main character, women can be people because they're on like, similar levels"? Like, what is the reasoning here?

G: Yeah, I mean, I think maybe a part of it is like, "Oh, Dean's just saying things. He's not actually-" but, like, we've seen Dean- We know that he's actually, you know. [C laughs] And also the fact that, like, if somebody makes these jokes in real life, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, they are just jokes," but like, the fact that these are the first things to come to your head, like, I'd feel like, "Okay, let's not meet each other ever again," you know?

C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

G: And multiple times, too. Multiple times.

C: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

G: We learn here, too, that Pamela needs to like, whisper an incantation in their ear to bring them back, and she, like, leans down and whispers, "You have got a great ass" to Sam.

C: Yeah. Sam's delighted by this. I think- yeah. Some of Pamela's shit is quite bad, like, I think she does like, sexually assault them at times. I feel like this one was was okay. I didn't feel automatically disgusted by it, at least.

So you know, they're outside, being ghosts or whatever the fuck. Someone runs through Sam, and then Dean has fun by like, sticking his arm into Sam's chest and all that shit. So apparently it's hours later now, and they haven't found anything, and this is when Dean suggests that they go to Victoria's Secret and get their peep on! Yayyy. But luckily, they're interrupted by a dead twelve-year-old in the window. [G laughs] It's Cole.

G: Is the kid literally twelve?

C: Yeah, the gravestone has the years.

G: That's a massive twelve-year-old? But also, poor guy. Poor kid.

C: I have no clue what ages kids are, which we've established already. I thought he was ten, so.

G: Adam- the Them were eleven. [laughing] You thought this kid was ten?

C: Yeah, I mean kids in Supernatural look older than they are already, like, that kid with the like, giant teddy bear or whatever, I feel like she was supposed to be younger than she looked.

G: What did you think she looked like?

C: I don't remember. I just feel like she was played like she was 6.

G: She's definitely like, 7 or something.

C: Like, played as 7, or the actress?

G: Played as and looks like.

C: Huh. I think all kids are 10 unless they are like, 6. [G laughs] I guess they can also be 13. Those are the three ages a kid can be. They noticed the kid, and they're like, "Oh, shit. That's Cole Griffith."

G: We go to the inside of this kid's room, and his mom is like, moving around like, calling him like, "Hi, Cole, it's mom. Your dad thinks I'm crazy. I swear you're here. Are you still with me?" A soccer ball or something, like, bounces around and like, throws itself across the room, and the mom's like, "Oh my god. You're still here." And as she leaves, Sam and Dean enter as ghosts, so they don't have to do the whole, "Hi! We're Sam and Dean, bloggers from flooredbythelord.com," but yeah. They see Cole, and he's there. They do the whole reveal that like, "We're also spirits. Let's talk!" They go downstairs, and in this entire scene, the mom is just in the foreground, like, drinking or whatever.

C: Yeah. They don't do a really good job with her character this episode.

G: Oh, they really don't.

C: 'Cause Cole's whole motivation is supposed to be that he wants to stay here so he can be with his family and like, first of all, they keep saying his "family." We don't see anybody else. Supposedly, there's a dad, because, like, the mom mentions a dad, but like, we don't see him. It is just like, this woman who is just like- I don't know. They just styled her to look like the most depressed person ever, and also, like- I don't know first. She's got that, like, famine look about her as in like, I don't know. It's like she was transported from a historical documentary about the Irish Potato Famine or whatever. She's just really there to look incredibly sad. I feel like if they had a scene where they interviewed her before they became ghosts where like, she actually talked about some memories with Cole or something like that that, would have helped, but like, she just has, like, the most generic, horror mourning mom dialogue ever. And then she's just like, drinking and looking at photos of him. I don't know. It just doesn't create a very strong basis for the Cole thread of this episode.

G: I mean, the fact that this- when the whole like, "Oh, but the people are gonna die again!" I fully did not comprehend, for most of this, that the people who were "saved," quote-unquote, are going to die, it's like, that is also an aspect that you could have leaned on. That like, this is not only just going to kill people in the future, it's like, going to kill people who are already saved. And, you know, it's that-

C: I mean, I think that is implied. Like, Dean says, "These are good people, and they're gonna die," [G: No, of course it's implied-] and I think he's thinking about how that dad is trying to-

G: - change, yeah.

C: But you're right. If we had like a-

G: There's no emotion to these people.

C: - little montage at the end, of like, that guy's daughter finding him on the floor, and, like, the cancer survivor, whatever whatever, it would have helped with whatever they were going for.

G: And like, I feel like the passing through the veil, we already did that in that one episode that I actually quite liked.

C: "Roadkill"?

G: Yeah. And this scene- you know what? This scene fucking terrified me. 'Cause apparently, this kid died because of cold air-induced asthma. [laughs] Yeah.

C: Oh, yeah, I understand why that would scare you.

G: Terrifying. I mean, not for me. It runs in the family. Asthma runs in the family, so like, good lord! People can just die from that?

C: It's like- is it ever cold where you are, though?

G: I mean, one time it was 23 degrees, and I was complaining to my British friend that-

C: 23 degrees Celsius, for the audience.

G: - like, "Oh my god, it's so cold!" She was like, "What's the temperature?" and I was like, "It's 23 degrees, but like, it's windy." And she was like, "You're unfucking real."

C: That's 73 degrees Fahrenheit, for the audience-

G: "- It's literally 9 degrees where I am now." [laughs]

C: - just to get an understanding of this.

G: But it really was chilly! [both laugh]

C: Your experiences are valid. To you.

G: Yeah, this kid dies 'cause of an asthma attack, and then he just goes, "Yeah, it happened so fast. And then I was just there, looking down at my body." Scary. Terrifying.

C: Yeah. I think this actor is decent at playing a kid who we are supposed to like.

G: Yeah, this actor's decent at playing a kid who's 14 years old, I think. [C laughs] And he says that "There was this creepy old guy in a black suit, and he wanted me to go with him," and I was like, "Holy shit! Is this Death?" It's literally not, though.

C: Yeah, it's some other reaper who looks sorta like Death.

G: Some other rando. Yeah. What's funny is they don't even, like, have him be awake for his scenes. Like, when he gets hauled up to be killed, he's just unconscious. But when Tessa gets hauled up to be killed, like, she's conscious, which is so funny to me. He says, "I didn't want to go," but, you know, "I didn't. He didn't take me." Sam asked, "How did you get rid of him?" And he said, "I didn't. The black smoke did." And this entire thing was treated like such a fucking reveal or whatever, but I feel like we already knew. Did we already know? I feel like we already did know.

C: Yeah, they were talking about, like, "Maybe demons can kill reapers," blah blah balh.

G: But you know, Cole was like, "They took him. They left me alone." He says, "I don't know where the smoke went, but I know where it is." And then suddenly, lights start flickering, blah blah blah. Cole starts hiding after saying like, "They're back." And then suddenly, beside him, somebody appears, and it's Tessa. Tessa still recognizes Dean. She like, says that he's "the one that got away."

C: Later, yeah.

G: Which is pretty fun. [C makes annoyed sound] I mean, they have like, a lot of- like, a, lot of their conversation later is like, you can isolate it to be romantic, but literally, it's about Tessa wanting Dean to be dead, [C laughs] and Dean wanting Dean to be dead, which is pretty funny! [laughs]

C: Yeah. And it's also about me wanting Dean to be dead, [G laughs] but they cut that out of the episode because it was taking too long.

G: Yeah, three for three, baby!

C: Yeah. She's in like, a regular person outfit. [laughs] I don't know how to explain it. It's just like, a shirt and pants and jacket or whatever, right? But, you know, later they just have to get that white nightgown on her. [laughs] You know, she's surprised that Dean doesn't remember her, and Dean's like, "If I had a nickel for every time I heard a girl say that," [annoyed sounds]. And then, like, [groans]. And then Tessa kisses him, and that's like, to transfer the memories, and I hate it so much.

G: Literally, why?

C: I hope we all die. There's no reason. It's just like, "She is played by an actress who is attractive. Let's do this." Like, okay, well, I think everything's bad forever. Memories are back. Tessa says that Tessa is "one of her names," which is fun. I want to know more about her! But they don't really treat her like a character. She has no internal consistency at all this episode. Dean tells Sam that this is the reaper that came after him in 2.01, and then Tessa's like, "Okay, well, now, I'm gonna leave to kill this kid." So why did she give Dean's memories back?

G: I mean, she knows what's going on with their life, so like, she knows that all he's gonna do is like, prevent her from doing her job, which at this point, is her main priority, so like, I don't know. I mean, she is probably still caught up in the whole TOTGA, as we say.

C: The what?

G: TOTGA. [laughs]

C: What does that mean?

G: The one that got away.

C: Ohh.

G: That's something- people say that, right.

C: I've not heard it, but maybe some people do. Okay, yeah, so it's like, she's sort of been obsessing over Dean for like, a few years now, so like, she would prefer that obsession to be like, at least somewhat mutual because it's annoying when that guy doesn't even remember you. She and Cas should battle it out at some point. He also raised Dean from the- well, he raised Dean from the dead. He like, did a thing that's sort of related to her thing.

G: I think I think it is fascinating that, like, Dean just has this like, string of supernatural entities that he has like, some weird relationship with.

C: Yeah.

G: Yeah, I mean, Sam does, too, I suppose. They both have their types. Wait, what is Sam's? He has the werewolf.

C: Yeah, Madison. Ruby.

G: Demon, with ruby. Who else? Rowena. Withc. But that's just to me, personally. Eileen was a ghost, but that doesn't really count.

C: Yeah, that wasn't really part of that.

G: But you know what? [laughs] If we try hard enough, it could be.

C: Sure.

G: Who else was Sam involved with? Doesn't he- ah, no, Amy is like, a different thing. That's not his kid.

C: Yeah, but, I mean-

G: Am I mixing things up?

C: Sam and Amy were into each other when they were kids.

G: Yeah, so I guess that's something. And with Dean, good lord.

C: Cas. Crowley.

G: Crowley [pronounced Cr-ow-ley]. That's so weird now! That's so weird to say now. Crowley.

C: I mean, it's important to say so we don't get him mixed up with my specialest little girl.

G: Benny.

C: Benny, yeah. I mean, these are all subtextual. Like, Sam's are like, actual.

G: That's true. Amara isn't. Amara isn't, but-

C: Yeah, Amara's- Yeah, there's something textual.

G: I mean, Cas isn't subtextual. Don't say that!

C: It's one-sided subtextual.

G: Booo! Yeah, it is. [both laugh] That is interesting. I suppose Sam has all the textual ones, and Dean has all the subtextual ones, and even the Amara stuff is like, presented as he doesn't like it.

C: Want it, yeah.

Dean says that Tessa can't kill the kid because demons are here and Cole knows where they are, so he can like, help stop them from killing more reapers. Sam tells Tessa that she should skip town. The whole time, right, like, Tessa's just like- she's very strongly like, [annoying voice] "No, I'm not going. You guys are stupid. Blah blah blah blah blah!" And she is talking like that. And like, "I don't give a shit about anything. I'm just trying to like, fix death in this town. Your whole angel-demon danceoff, I could care less." Blah blah blah, "No." And then, like, Dean, just goes like, "Okay, can you just wait until we fix this, pwease?" And she just switches her tune really fast, which I found annoying. Like, I wish there was more of a progression.

G: Honestly, because, like, the way it's presented is like, Dean getting away made her endeared to him.

C: Yeah, so it's like, he was like, "Pwease," and then she was like, "Yeah, okay, babe."

G: I don't even think that would be the case. Like, if you had a really bad day at work, [both laugh] and you try very hard to get this guy- You know what? Maybe they were like, "I had a bad day at work. What a weird time we were in together."

C: Maybe. I mean, I guess that's how they want to play it, so what-the-fuck-ever. And then she's like, "Just so we're clear, when I start reaping again, I'm starting with the kid," and she seems pretty excited about killing Cole. But then, when I say no internal consistency, it's mostly about this. Like, later, she's like, so compassionate, or like, nice or whatever to Cole, etc etc. And like, I guess we could think that that's like, an act, 'cause like, I think it's an act in this very next scene. But at the end, I think we're supposed to read it as like, genuine or whatever. Like, there's nothing to indicate that it's an act. And it's like, well, that doesn't jive with what she was saying earlier. So like, yeah, I mean, she's just a tool this episode. She's not a character.

G: But it also does paint the whole trying to convince Dean thing fascinating, because, like-

C: True, she does have a history of like, putting on acts in order to get people to agree to die. Yeah, I guess maybe we were just supposed to know based on that that she was putting on an act. But, like, it's still like, supposed to be like, this beautiful moment or whatever whatever whatever, so I don't know.

Sam's like, "Okay, I'm gonna find the kid and get this info," and Dean's like, "What are you gonna say to him?" And Sam says, "Whatever I have to."

G: This scene is like- is it necessary? Like, I think about it, and I'm like, "Why is Samm doing this?"

C: I don't- I feel that there are other ways to get the kid to like, tell you where the smoke was. Yeah, no, Sam jumps to this solution really fast, and I think it's just to like, you know, help with the whole, "Sam, you might have good intentions, you think, but you're actually like, bad, and the lengths to which you're willing to go to like, do whatever hunting thing, get Lilith, whatever, is too much!" But it did feel pretty jarring and not in like a "It's intentional and like, in a good way" way. It's like, "It's intentional in a bad way" way.

Sam goes upstairs to Cole's room. Cole is in the closet. Slay. He's like, trying to do this sympathetic thing where he's like, "Oh, this must all be really overwhelming and scary." Cole's like, "It's really difficult to see my mom like, come in here and tell me how sad she is, and like, I'll move stuff so that she knows that I'm here, but that just makes her more sad." And Cole says that he's not gonna tell Sam where the smoke is, and then Sam pauses for a second, and then he's like, "Hey, what if I told you that if you helped me, you wouldn't have to leave here, ever." Like, "Oh, no reaper would bother you. You're safe from Tessa. You can just stay here with your family for as long as you wanted. I can do that for you." And Cole makes him promise, and he does, and it's just like- yeah, it just feels like a forced setting up something.

G: I suppose it was odd to me 'cause like, I never even really thought of Cole as like, someone who desperately wanted to stay.

C: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that was not set up at all.

G: Obviously, when the reaper was reaping him, he didn't want to go. But, like, now he has seen his mother, and like, now he has seen how- I mean, he mentions, right, like, "I tried to move around stuff, but she just gets lonelier and lonelier."

C: Yeah, like, I don't see why he would want to stick around. Besides, I guess, just that he's scared of death, which is like, the point of the episode or whatever, but like, he doesn't even say that. It's odd. And also it's like, there's no real follow-through. Like, Sam's the one who does this, and like, Sam doesn't seem to have any like, rough feelings about it later. Like, Dean's the one who's like, "Cas, it's so bad that people are gonna die now," and like, Dean's the one who's with Tessa when she finally takes Cole, so it's like, if you're like, putting like, the like, moral grayness of this on Sam, then like, it should end with Sam. But Sam just like, fucks off after the funeral home.

G: I don't think Sam even knows that this happened, if I'm being fucking for real. [both laugh]

G: Tessa and Dean are in the kitchen, still talking. It starts this thing where, like, Tessa is like, saying, like, "Oh, life's so funny! You and me together again." And Dean asks, "Are you making a move on me?" And she goes, "You're the one that got away. You'd be surprised how little that happens to me." Fun. And then Dean asks, "Can I tell you something? Between you and me?" which did remind me of the whole, you know-

C: 4.07.

G: "if you promise not to tell another soul." And Tessa's response is "Who am I gonna tell?" Which is also interesting.

C: Yeah. What about the reaper Discord?

G: Yeah. 'Cause like, what are reapers? Reapers are a separate thing from demons and angels?

C: Later, they're retconned to be angels, but like, currently, they're not.

G: Yeah, exactly, right? I think about like, what is the social dynamic of angelhood? Like, if you say that Cas, and Cas goes, "Who am I gonna tell?" Cas in the future, probably, like, that's true. Cas now is like, well, he has many people to tell, actually. Like, he could tell Uriel or something. His cohorts in heaven. But like, with Tessa, who, I mean, at this point, not written to be an angel, so does Tessa not have anyone? You know. Like, are reapers more isolated, individual, solo-flying creatures than angels and- well, than angels? We don't really see the social aspect of demons that much. Well, I thought it was interesting. But Dean says that "After our little experience, for a whole year after that, I just had this hole in my gut," which, you know, you cannot just- What's that line Sam says? "I know that you have a hole in you-"

C: And you can't just like, shove stuff-

G: Keep filling it up, yeah. Wonderful sentence. But he goes, "I was missing something. I didn't know what, but you know what it is? It was you." And I was like, "Oh my god, that's such a romantic thing to say!" And then he goes, "The pain of everything I experienced. I just wish I was dead for good." [laughs] And I was like, "Good lord." Yeah, and he goes, "Yeah, I guess things are different now, though." And Tessa asks about like, "Oh, is it the angel on your shoulder?" And yeah, this is our reveal that Tessa knows, although we don't really do anything about it. Yeah. Dean says, "Yeah. Don't get me wrong, most of the angels I've met are dicks with wings." I suppose that is "most" meaning Uriel and Cas. He says he's done horrible things, but someone upstairs still decided he deserves a second chance. It makes him feel- "I don't know." And then Sam comes down, disturbs this conversation, and Tessa does this whole thing where she introduces herself to Cole. I find this so odd. 'Cause Sam goes like, "Okay, Cole. Just tell them what you told me," and it's like, [both] "You could've just told just told them." You're expo- It's so odd. Why are you doing this, Sam? He says, "I saw the black smoke at my funeral, at the funeral home. It was everywhere." And then suddenly, lights start flickering, and the front door swings open, and then black smoke everywhere. It like, covers everything, and then when it disappears, Tessa is gone. Dean is like, "Oh my god! Like, how the hell are we supposed to fight that?" And Sam's like, "Oh, maybe we should learn some ghost moves." And Dean goes, "By tonight? Yeah, sure, I'll meet you back at Mister Miyagi's." And the kid goes, "Who's Mister Miyagi?" This is a- what?

C: Karate Kid?

G: - Karate Kid reference, maybe?

C: Okay, what we have next is this sort of fun, like, training montage of Sam and Dean learning how to ghostfight.

G: It is pretty fun!

C: Yeah. I was amused. Like, I'm glad they didn't like, push too hard the "And everything they're doing is to try to kill Cole eventually" angle, because I feel like it would have been a bit overdone. I feel like it just works as a thing that's sort of in the back of your mind while you watch them have fun and goof around.

G: Yeah. Also, yeah, Sam does mention here like, Cole's twelve. You're right. I don't know. I wish they just hired an actor who looks a bit younger.

C: I mean, this is a twelve-year-old to me. Why not?

G: I mean, this kid, I think, acts well. I think-

C: We can probably look up this kid's age. But okay, when we're doing the IMDb thing, so we don't spoil ourselves, we can figure out how old this kid was in 2009. First step of the training montage, Dean's concentrating really, really hard to try to get a windmill to turn, and he does like, an okay job, but it's a lot of effort. And, you know, Cole's cocky, Cole's having a great time, and he is able to move a bunch of shit outside. And then inside, Cole is punching Sam. [laughs] It's great. Apparently, if you feel angry, then like, that causes you to be able to make contact, or whatever the fuck, though we don't really get into what makes Cole angry, and I feel like that could be an interesting way to go with his character. But eh, whatever. We've got limited time. So he tells Dean to hit him, and you know, Dean's like, "I'll stick to someone my own side," and then Cole like, just punches Dean in the face. It's great. Then Cole tells Sam to hit him, and, you know, Sam says that he's not gonna Fight Club a twelve-year-old, and then Cole gets Sam in the face! And Sam's like, sort of laughing, and he's like, "Alright, alright! Cut it out." And then at Cole's next punch at Sam, Sam is like, fully ready to throw hands with a twelve-year-old, but Cole disappears and then reappears across the room to escape that. It's fun. [G: Yeah.] I liked the way Sam was laughing on "Alright, cut it out." Like, yeah. They could have had a good, fun time as ghosts together.

G: You know what would fix- [laughs] You know what would fix Sam and Dean?

C: Like, if they had younger sibling.

G: Is if they had another younger brother. [laughs]

C: I mean, they do have one, and it doesn't fix anything. [G laughs]

G: No, Adam is a middle brother.

C: Really?

G: I think. Is that true? I think that's a lie and I'm lying to you.

C: Adam is the youngest. Wasn't he studying biology, like, as an undergrad?

G: He was 19. He was like, 19. Yeah. Damn. Well, they should have played-fight with Adam, and maybe it would have fixed everything.

G: Yeah, I'm assuming they real-fight with the ghoul that looks like Adam. But yeah. You know, Dean wants Cole to teach him that particular trick, and supposedly, he does.

G: Yeah. And then, you know, we are walking towards the funeral home, and we see the outside, and it's completely covered in this, like, glowing diagrams of sigils on the wall. You know, Sam and Dean figure that this is something that only, like, people in the veil can see 'cause, you know, they wouldn't be able to see this IRL. And as they go along, they go inside, and there is this like, room that's just massive and unoccupied by anything else, and there is a sigil on the floor, and inside this giant sigil is Tessa and this other guy, who is, I suppose, the older reaper. And there's a guy standing guard. So like, there's a fight scene where this guy gets beat up. Like, they don't see Sam and Dean, right? Like, this guy doesn't see Sam and Dean.

C: Yeah, yeah, no, they're both invisible-punching him, and it's pretty funny.

G: Yeah. More people come in, and they get trapped. Like, this is a trick. They got tricked into attacking this guy and then getting- and then, like, a bunch of people come in with like, this iron chains, and then they get trapped inside an iron chain circle, or- not circle. Whatever. Just a place. And then a man comes in. Familiar face to me and to you, and to anyone who has seen an ounce of "On a Head of a Pin." It's Alastair in his like, final form.

C: Yeah. His voice is great. I can't imitate it, but it's wonderful.

G: Yeah, it's wonderful. It's a combination of like, voice quality of the actor and like, the accent he's putting on. I mean, I'm not sure if it's like, an accent he's putting on or if he just speaks like this. If he does, wonderful thing to to speak like in real life. But, you know, if he isn't-

C: Good job.

G: - wonderful accent to put on for this character. It's like this drawl. It's very drawly. But it's not like- 'cause there's the Southern drawl. I feel like I know what that sounds like. This is not that. It's something else. More bassy. Very good. Very good. I feel like Alastair's voice, this vessel, specifically, is one of those things that, like, you'll recognize it. Like, you hear it once and like, you recognize it. Do you understand what I mean? It's like, you could forget Supernatural for all of its worth, but like, you hear that voice, and you're like, "Oh, that's like, a demon from Supernatural or something."

C: So true.

G: It's so recognizable. I mean, we're gonna talk about it next episode 'cause it is the next episode, but in "On the Head of a Pin," I mean, that episode is constantly referred to as like, one of the best of Season 4 and one of the best of Supernatural because it's so atmospheric, and like, that's a big part of what makes it so good. The atmosphere. And I do think that a lot of the atmosphere is brought by the Alastair actor. Like, he slays this role so hard.

C: Good. So Alastair gets a gun full of rock salt or whatever the fuck, and then he shoots Dean, and he says something about how "Rock salt's not so much fun anymore, is it?" which I wish that there was an episode where it was like, they were the monsters or whatever or like, got more empathy for the people that they hunt, and like, there was a chance for that here, but it's not really a thing. This is just the one line. Unforch. Sam is unable to use his powers because he's not in his body or whatever. Alastair says that Hell keeps sending him back up here, even though he's not that into it, to get him to break seals. For this one he has to kill death twice. He has to kill two reapers. Which, again. Out of nowhere.

G: Literally, like, there's no foreshadowing for this.

C: Truly out of nowhere. He rock salts Sam and tells Dean that it's good to see him again. Dean says, "You can shoot us all you want, but you can't kill us." and Alastair is like, "Oh, are you sure about that?" So like, we're supposed to assume that what's happening in the motel room next-

G: - is gonna kill like, their bodies, yeah.

C: Yeah. But like, is that what the demon's goal seems to be? It's a pretty disjointed fight scene, so I can't really tell, but-

G: I mean, it can either be like, kill Sam and Dean's bodies, or kill Pamela-

C: So then they can't be brought back ever.

G: - so she can't get them back to their bodies.

C: Yeah, that'd be pretty cool if they were stuck as ghosts forever. In the motel, we just cut briefly to, you know, Pamela sitting there, and then there's sounds, so then she locks the door, but there's a window open, and there's wind outside.

G: Alastair, like, holds a scythe. Is it not Sith? Is that a different thing?

C: I think it's scythe.

G: I think Sith is like, from fucking Star Wars. Dean makes a comment of like, "Oh, really? You're gonna feel a reaper with that? Little on the nose, huh?" Alastair says, "An old friend lent it to me. You know, he doesn't really ride a pale horse, but he does have three amigos." Fun! Fun stuff.

C: Yeah. "They're just jonesing for the Apocalypse." [G: So like-] Yeah, he's friends with Death. Imagine being a regular person who dies and was kind of shitty, so you become a demon in Hell, and now you're like, friends with literal Death.

G: Also, I don't remember much of what Death is like in Season 5. I remember some of Famine, but like, in just like, a weird, roundabout way of like, "I know that Famine like, wanted to do the Apocalypse," and I think pestilence also wanted to do the Apocalypse. What's the other fucking-

C: War.

G: War? I don't even remember if we had a War in this thing.

C: I also don't.

G: I mean, we definitely did, 'cause the whole point was collecting the four rings. Death, I feel like, was a lot more-

C: Neutral?

G: - neutral on the whole Apocalypse thing. But from what we hear here, like, I mean, he did offer this scythe, and that is to lead directly to the breaking of the seal, which would lead directly to the Apocalypse, so I suppose.

C: Yeah, I prefer a neutral Death as a character, but if we're doing this, okay.

G: Yeah, I do also prefer a neutral Death. Because, you know, War and Famine and Pestilence are like, bad things, you know. But like, Death is universal.

Alastair pulls up the old guy reaper. He doesn't wake up because he's irrelevant to this fucking episode, and he starts chanting. I don't know. He like- how does he kill? Like, he just slashes with the scythe?

C: Yeah, he just slashes his neck.

G: Sam and Dean notice that there's a chandelier over this sigil. As the reaper grabs Tessa, who wakes up, Sam and Dean are able to chandelier that thing down. It like, breaks the seal of the sigil. Tessa is able to get out. Also, like, in the motel room, we are seeing stuff happening, where like, Pamela. like, closes the window, goes to the bathroom, you know, nobody's there. But then, you know, she leaves the bathroom. There's a demon in the hotel room. There's this little moment where she's like, pretending to not notice, and then she runs up to Sam and starts reciting the chant that like, supposed to bring him back. But Pamela gets dragged up in everything.

C: Okay, we cut outside the funeral home, and Sam is gone. So Dean tells Tessa to get out of here, he'll find Sam. In the motel room, what has happened is that Pamela was able to wake Sam up, finally. However, in the course of her fight with the demon, she gets stabbed in the stomach. RIP.

G: RIP.

C: Sam exorcises the daemon with his powers and shit, and then, again, the vessel seems to die from Sam like, flinging it against the wall. RIP. Pamela is laughing, but like, clearly not in like, a good way, and she's saying that she can't die in this town. There's no blood from her injury. Sam is worried about her, and he's saying, like, "You need a doctor." I like how that line was delivered. I don't know. He was very niceys about it. Pamela's like, "No, let's just- just make me a drink." What is the reasoning here? What's like, going on with Pamela internally?

G: That like, she wants to save Dean versus go to- Yeah, I don't know.

C: What do you mean save Dean? She could just wake him up, like, right now. [G: Yeah.] They just wanted her die. I don't know. It's just like, "It's like, useless or whatever, so I'll die anyway"? Like, "No hospital can help."

G: Yeah. 'Cause like, the moment she gets out of this place and another reaper finds her, she'll get reaped. But also, like, you can still treat the wound, I think.

C: Yeah, I also think that you can. The issue is just that you'll just start bleeding again, but if you bandage up the area, once you start bleeding again, it'll be less bad or something, right?

G: No, it probably will be. I mean, we saw how it bled out when it started bleeding out.

C: That's true.

G: But like, you don't know that from just getting stabbed. Or maybe you do. I've never been stabbed, so I don't know.

C: Yeah, like, she's just super certain that it's like, bad enough that she would die, no matter what?

G: Yeah, perhaps.

C: I don't know that you'd know that, but like, maybe she does know that.

Dean is outside walking, and then Alastair appears and says, like, "You can't run. Not from me. I'm inside that angsty little noggin of yours." And then Alastair gets struck by lightning and just is gone. And Dean, [laughs] very confused, looks around, [both] goes, "What the hell?" And then from behind him, a voice says, "Guess again."! And he turns around, and it's Cas!!! Well.

G: Cas thinks he's so funny. He thinks he's so funny.

C: And he is! And he is!

G: He's wonderful.

C: Ah! He's so babygirl. And he's not even- he's not even looking at Dean when he says it. Like, Dean turns around, and then, like, there's like, a beat before Cas looks up to meet his gaze, which I think is great.

G: Yeah.

C: He's just like me for real, he's wonderful! He's wonderful!

G: I mean, we make jokes that like, Cas is saying this because he thinks he's so fun and cool and fresh or whatever, but like, it really does feel like such a practiced stint. Because, like, later, we see Cas in this scene, and he's just- we have this like, shot that's like, far away, so it's full body, and Cas is just standing there like, bad posture, hands on his side, and I did have the thought "He's not used to his body yet." Like, he hasn't grown into this body yet. First, because, like, it's not his yet, it's still like, a vessel. Like, Jimmy's still in there. Oh, god! We're gonna have the Jimmy episode this season!

C: We sure are.

G: I completely fucking forgor. It's that- and like, you know, 'cause like, later on in the show, like, Cas's body is his body, and like, I think we see that on screen that that's him. Like, he exists in this physical form. And like, you know, that's a thing that the angels insult him for in "Lily Sunder" and everything. But here, it is very much like, Cas isn't used to his body yet. So during moments where he has, like, a very specific, timed move, all I can think of is like, "He's doing that on purpose." Like, he's thinking about that. This, like, physical form doesn't come naturally to him. He has to think about it and adjust to it and everything. [both] Cas!

C: Ah! We cut to a little bit later, Cas says, like, "What just happened? You and Sam just saved a seal. We captured Alastair. Dean. this was a victory." He does seem really like, sincere and like, a little bit proud about all of that. Yeah, but also, he's trying to convince Dean of it, because, I guess, during the time cut, Dean yelled at him, or whatever. And, you know, his head is tilted in the beautiful way that it is.

G: Yeah. I have a bookmark that is- [laughs] It's basically a a photo card. Like, I printed a picture of Cas, and then I laminated it. Like, I la- I couldn't even go to the store, and like, have it laminated. [C laughs] I bought a laminating, like, sheet, and I laminated it myself, 'cause I was so embarrassed. [C laughing] But yeah. Apparently, you can just iron that shit together, and then it gets laminated.

C: Nice! Good to know.

G: Fun stuff. And it's this scene. It's Cas like, tilting his head that way.

C: Aw! God bless.

Dean says, "Well, no, thanks to you." And Cas, you know, with his his head tilted, goes, "What makes you say that?" Ah! He's soo cute. He's so cute. Dean seems genuinely upset about this. I think it's the way the street lights work; it's making his eyes look wet, so like, it looks like he's like, on the verge of tears, even though he isn't. And he goes, "You were here the whole time?" Huh! That is interesting because it's like, we've seen- Like, first off, Cas did help. He just zapped that guy for you. Be grateful. Secondly, like, I don't know why Dean would expect help given that like, they haven't had help in the past, either, right? Like, 4.02, he had this argument with Cas as well. He was like, "There were people down here dying," and Cas was like, "I was busy, bitch." Like-

G: I mean, even then, Dean was upset. So this is just not-

C: This is the same thing.

G: He hasn't learned to not be upset about it yet.

C: Yeah. I don't know. I guess, like, he has been hinging a lot of his like, willingness to live on like, "The angels have like, a personal investment in me. Like, they wanna help me specifically."

G: Yeah. [makes emotional sounds]

C: So I guess Cas being here the whole time but not helping him would not help with, like, what he's trying to use as his will to live.

G: No, but it's crazy, because, like, you know, in 4.02, it's like, "Angels are supposed to be good, and there's people dying out here!" And then here, the argument is, "But I was suffering. Like, I was shot with that rock salt."

C: Yeah, "You like me, right?"

G: Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, it's not even "You like me, specifically."

C: It's just "I'm special."

G: It's that "The angels have an investment in me 'cause I'm special." And then, you know, just off the top of my head, like, in Season 12, when Cas, like, goes to Heaven to track Kelly or something, and Dean gets mad at him, like, the upset is now, like, "But you! Like, you, Cas, you're supposed to be with us and helping us," and like, I don't know. The progression of that does make me emo a little bit.

C: Okay. [laughs] Sorry. So true. Um.

G: Well, it is true.

C: Yeah. The other ingredient in this is that like, Dean was being cornered by like, Alastair-

G: Yeah, specifically.

C: - and another part, Dean was like, "I've done really horrible things in Hell, but also, like-" I think he just meant "in Hell" when he was talking to Tessa. But like, I would argue also as a person on Earth. And it was like, "And despite all of that, like, someone upstairs wanted to save me," etc etc. So I guess like, Alastair coming in and trying to force Dean to confront that past, and then, like, Cas showing up and zapping Alastair, and Cas being one of the few beings alive who does know about the Hell torture and doesn't judge Dean for it, like, I guess that that is another ingredient to this soup that is fun. He's angy. And Cas, says, like, "Enough of it." and looks away. I don't- is this like, meant to be like, shame? Or-

G: I don't think so.

C: Yeah, it doesn't feel like it. But he does look away. It could be more of a like, "Okay, here goes a conversation I don't really want to engage in." sort of looking away too.

G: Yeah, pretty much.

C: Yeah. Well, first, Dean says, "Well, thanks for your help with the rock salt." It was- like, the rock salt? Like, was getting shot like, that bad? It's the iron chain that was like, the main issue that was like, keeping you from like, saving everyone.

G: No, I mean, this is what's fascinating to me. Because he's complaining about like, what hurt, not what like, actually lessened their chances of winning.

C: Yeah, yeah. So it is like a- It's a personal thing, yeah.

G: Yeah. Like you said, if he really was upset, it's like, "Well, what about the iron chain that kept us there? Like, we almost- he almost got Tessa."

C: Yeah, we almost didn't make it. The seal could've been broken. But it's not about that.

G: And it's about like, "Well, I was in pain!"

C: "You let me get a boo-boo!" [both laugh] Yeah. Cas, who's still like, squimting a bit as he talks-

G: [giggling] I'm literally giggling. Well, it's important to me! I love you. I love you, Cas.

C: Yeah. Yeah. He says, "That script on the funeral home, we couldn't penetrate it." And it's nice that he says that because, like, I feel like maybe, like, a little earlier in the season, Cas just would have been like, "Don't care. Go away." But like, this is- like, he is just stating a fact, but it is a fact that implies like, "If we could have, we would have helped." That's nice. And I think that that does like, cause Dean to soften like, a little bit.

G: Of course, yeah.

C: Like, it is meaningful to Dean that this is the case.

G: Oh, god! I'm thinking about- 'cause here, the line is, "The script on the funeral home, we couldn't penetrate it." The next line is "That's why we recruited you." Like, "The reason why we recruited you in the first place is because we couldn't get in there." And it's like, "The only reason why I put you in that danger is because it's essential, like, we had no choice." And then next episode, we get Cas saying, "If it means anything, [overlapping] I would give everything not to have you do this."

C: That is true. [G makes pained sound] Well.

G: God! And then at the end of this season- oh, we'll get into it at the end of the season.

C: Yeah. It'll happen.

G: Good lord!

C: Cas asks, yeah, "Why do you think I recruited you and Sam in the first place?" Dean is like, "Huh? What do you mean?" And, you know, Cas drops the reveal that he was just imitating Bobby's voice on the phone to Sam. Hil-ar-ious. So so so funny. Dean's like, "If you wanted our help, then why didn't you just ask?" And, you know, Cas gets this really annoyed look, and he goes, "Because whatever I ask, you seem to do the exact opposite." Is that true? When did that happen?

G: I mean in Samhain, Cas tells him to leave.

C: Yeah, but he said he secretly wanted-

G: But that's an order. That's an order. I mean, what else did he ask?

C: I mean, I'm sure there's something, we just forgor.

G: "Give me Anna"?

C: They didn't give Anna over, yeah. That's what he says. And then Dean is like, "So, okay, so people in this town are just gonna start dying again?" And, you know, Cas, no hesitation, no blinking, just goes, "Yes." God bless. I love him so much. One day, you're going to heal babies in the park, Cas. Dean is like, "What? Can't you make a few exceptions? Like, these are good people." And Cas says, "To everything, there is a season," which is Ecclesiastes 3:1, baby! What is the stance of the Bible in Supernatural verse? Like, it happened, right?

G: I suppose so. They did Sodom and Gomorrah that thing.

C: Yeah, and Cas said, like, "Read the Bible. Angels are warriors" or whatever, yeah.

G: What's the- 'cause, you know, if it happens in history, like, fine, you know it. But like, are the angels also imbued with like, what people know from the Bible? 'Cause those are different things.

C: Oh, wait, what do you mean?

G: Cas can quote, like, a specific event from the Bible, if, for example, he was there.

C: Which means he's read- Yeah, but this line means he's read the Bible.

G: But here, it's a quote from- yeah. Like, directly from the Bible, so like, mm. I don't know!

C: Well, maybe he was just there listening when King David said that shit.

G: Slay.

C: Yeah, he probably does read the Bible sometimes.

G: Hell yeah.

C: Though I don't know why he would have by now. Maybe, like, the angels have a book club about it where they like, laugh at the inaccuracies.

G: Uriel would be heading it. Funniest angel in the garrison and everything.

C: Exactly. And then Dean says - crazy line. He says, "You made an exception for me." There's a pause, and Cas has not been looking at Dean, but like, during this pause, he turns his head all the way around and looks at him and says, "You're different." Crazy line! [G exclaims] And I know it is about the Michael vessel shit, but sure are lines that were said. And then, like, it's the fact that, at this, like, Cas disappears, and then Tessa reappears directly in his spot, and, like, Tessa, is someone who has, like, pretty strong subtextual romantic and sexual, like, whatever with Dean, and like, it is the fact that, like, Cas says this shit, disappears, and then there's like, an acceptable-ish object of desire, who appears, like, right there in his spot. Like, interesting- interesting choices!

G: 'Cause, also, like, the shot before the "You're different" part is like- Like I said, the far away shot with Cas bad posture, etc. And then, like, Tessa appears, and then, like, Dean notices Tessa, and then we cut back to that shot, and it's like, the exact same shot, like, with the camera. And Tessa is standing in the exact position Cas is in. Like, I cannot reiterate how much this isn't a "Tessa is also there in the general area," like, she's in the exact same spot Cas was standing in. And like, it does make me feeeeel crazy. [laughs] Oh, Cas!

C: Yeah. Cas.

G: You know, one thing I do miss about Season 4 specifically- I feel like in Season 5, this becomes really less of the case, but in Season 4 specifically, Cas just shows up for so little in episodes, you know, because it's not like- it's not like, in the contract that Cas needs to be in this many episodes for this amount, like, you know, it is in future seasons when [disgusted voice] Misha Collins [both fake-vomit] becomes, like, you know, a regular in the cast. So here, it's like, "We just throw Cas in when we need him," and he's gonna be here for, what? Five minutes? Even less? But like, that's his whole thing. And I mean, it does make sense because, like, here, you know, Cas is more of a- has that role in the story of like, someone who just shows up for little bits, and then, like, gives these kinds of information for little sections of time. But, you know, in the future, of course, Cas is a more prominent role in the show. But like, it does feel obvious, you know, like, there are times in the future where like, why can't we just have like, one scene of Cas being like, "Oh, yeah, I don't want to go to that hunt. [C laughs] Good luck, though." You know? [laughs] I mean, the "You're different" line is- this is crazy! I literally hauve Destiel forever. [laughing]

C: Happy for you.

G: But like, I think about the fact that the "You're different" is obviously like, "You're different because you're the Michael's vessel, so in that way, you're different for us." But also, like, Dean is different for like, Cas, specifically. Cas has a personal, profound bond with Dean, just given the fact that- I mean, I'm not even counting the raising from perdition thing. I'm just thinking like, this is like, someone who saved his life, like, saved Cas's life when he absolutely didn't have to and probably had good reason not to in 4.10. This is someone that Cas has bared his soul to in 4.07.

C: Have we had "See, he has this weakness. He likes you." from Uriel already?

G: Oh, yeah! Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. In 4.10 as well. Yeah, Dean is different because all of those things to all of Heaven, but also, Dean is different to Cas because Cas is fond of him. Oh, Cas.

C: Yeah. Oh, Cas. Sorry that you're gonna spend a decade running after a man who wears jeans.

G: From Kansas, even.

C: From Kansas, even.

G: Where is Ka- I mean, I know Kansas is like, right smack in the middle of the mainland United States because that's where the bunker is. Sometimes I think about Cas this season, and I think about, "Is there like foreshadowing for what occurs in the finale?"

C: Oh, yeah.

G: Here, I don't even think- not yet. I feel like that shit happens mostly in the "Cas was gonna go to Dean in the Jimmy episode and then was hauled back to Heaven and got, I don't know, conversion therapied up there." I always thought of Season 4 as a very loaded emotionally season for the both of them, like, in their relationship, but really, like, in this parts of the show- I'm sorry. I mean, I don't know why I'm saying "I'm sorry," but like, it really is less, like, emotional and more the physicality of it.

C: What do you mean? Just their body language?

G: Body language, also, like, specifically how their scenes are filmed. Their scenes are filmed in such a specific way, 'cause like, what they're trying to convey is like, Cas is this like, ethereal creature, and this is like a, "Whoah," like a- you know. It's supposed to be charged in that way. But because it always happens in the dark, in the quiet, in like, those places where, you know, the kitchen scene was like, darkly lit, very quiet. And this scene, darkly lit, very quiet. It just feels so like, intimate. The result of it feels so intimate. Later, we have that scene with like, the crane shot-

C: Oh, god.

G: - where they're like, in this abandoned- not abandoned lot. Like, in the car lot. I think it's in Bobby's backyard or something. That's also dark-lit and everything. Again, it's something that is, I think, very Season 4-specific. They kind of let that whole thing go in future seasons. But I don't know, I feel like Dean and Cas, their story really started out with the sexual tension of it all.

C: So true.

G: 'Cause like, I mean, the kitchen scene is still one of their most, like, Destiel scenes, you know?

C: It's very horny.

G: We have so many seasons' worth of this show. Years' worth of this show. And that one is the one that's like, "Oh. Okay. So they do want to fuck each other. Okay, noted!" And, I don't know. The fact that it comes so early in the story and precedes all of the emotional stuff is so interesting to me.

C: Yeah.

G: I mean, we know from, like, you know, forums and everything that the moment the episode dropped, like, people were like, "Oh." Like, you know, "Lazarus Rising" dropped, people were like, "Oh. Is something on there?" But is the pivoting to a more emotional connection, a result of trying to like, un-homo it?

C: Huh!

G: Do you understand what I mean?

C: Yeah, like, if they're friends, that's like, chiller than the way they are standing less than a foot away from each other, staring at each others' mouths all the time.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 'Cause like, that dynamic really does change in later seasons, I feel. It becomes more like, again, like I said, it becomes more emotional. Familiar, I suppose, is the proper term. Instead of Cas being this like, foreign entity to Dean that always keeps him on his toes and everything.

C: Yeah.

G: Yeah. I don't know. I have a lot of Destiel thoughts with this scene.

C: Congrats. Yeah.

G: Thank you.

C: I mean, Cas is pretty hot there. So, so true.

G: Cas is such a wonderful, wonderful character! I hauve Castiel, forever.

C: Yeah.

C: So we're in Cole's house again, and, you know, his mom's crying over a photo book of them, and Cole is watching, and Tessa shows up wearing a fucking white nightgown 'cause why not? Dean is also there. And Cole somehow seems to sense-

G: Why, even? Why the change of outfit? Why the everything? Why?

C: I don't know. I don't know. Like, that's her like, work uniform? Before, she was just in her casual clothes at home? I don't know. It's for the visual whatever whatever, and I think it's dumb. I mean, it happened in 2.01 as well. Like, she was like, pretending to be another like, hospital patient, and then, like, once she's revealed as a reaper, like, she like, gets this black dress or whatever, right?

G: Yeah yeah yeah.

C: Yeah, it's just a fucking thing. And Cole is just somehow able to automatically tell that this means that she's gonna come and like, send him to the afterlife. He looks at Dean, and he says, "Tell your brother thanks for nothing, "and that's just like, the only payoff we get to like, that whole moral dilemma setup. Not particularly satisfying, I would say. And then Tessa goes for the angle where it's like, "Look, your mom is so unhappy, and as long as she can feel you, she'll be in pain because she can't let go because you won't let go of her," but I mean, she says it all in like, a very nice, compassionate, whatever voice. And then- ugh! So, you know, Cole is like, "Why won't anybody tell me what's on the other side?" Did he- he didn't even ask anybody during this episode, did he?

G: He literally did not.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Whatever. Maybe he just means like, adults in his life from when he was growing up. Dean says that reapers will never answer your questions, "But trust me, staying here is a whole lot worse than anything over there." Dean has been to Hell.

G: That's literally not true. That's not true. That's a lie, you're lying to him.

C: Maybe he assumes Cole would like, go to Heaven, but like, they don't know people get sorted. Like, maybe you're sending this twelve-year-old to go get tortured on the racks. Yeah, Cole asks why it's worse, and Dean says, "Because one day, your family will be gone, and there'll be nothing left here for you." Harsh! And also, again, doesn't work very well when the only family we've seen is like, his mom who has no personality. Like, I think that if they'd given Cole, like, a sibling, like, this, would have fixed the episode, or at least this strand of the episode.

G: [laughs] Just make him Dean Winchester?

C: No, I wasn't thinking that. I just think like- for him to not want to leave his family- like, I don't know. The thing with the mom and not wanting to leave her, it feels like that dumb, patronizing thing where, like, you know, like, your dad leaves and then he tells like, his eight-year-old son, like, "You're the man of the house now. Take care of your mom for me now," you know? That's like, your mom. But like, if he had like, a sibling of a similar age to him, that'd be like, "That's like, an equal, and like, a friend that I want to stay with," and like, I don't know, that would make more sense to me and like, also just flesh out the not wanting to leave your family thing in general. There's this whole conversation that, like, they make it seem like it's like, the moral of the episode, but like, there was literally nothing about this earlier, so like, it's not? [laughs] Where like, Dean's like, "It's okay to be scared. We're all scared. That's the big secret. We're all scared." That's not a big secret. Everyone knows that it's scary to die? What's the- how is this like, the thing of the episode?

G: I mean, Supernatural usually does have this issue where, like, they have an episode, and then they throw, like, so many things at it. Like, it's not cohesive because they're like, "And here's the moral of the story," and you're like-

C: "No?"

G: - "I think ten minutes ago, you said a different moral." [both laugh] So I don't know what's up with that.

C: I had no idea that people were scared of death. So glad I learned this from the CW’s Supernatural in the year 2023. [G laughs] Cole asks if Dean's coming with him, and Dean's like, "No, but I'm sure I'll be there sooner than you think," and he went and lived for like, eleven more years, unfortunately. There's like, this thing where, like, Cole dies by like, hugging Tessa, and then he like, melts into her.

G: Yeah. It's so odd!

C: It's strange. Yeah.

G: No, because the thing is like, they have a reaper, and she's a woman [C laughs], and it's like, "How I'm going to reap you is to like, be the embodiment of womanhood."

C: To be motherly, yeah.

G: Like, with Dean, it's like, "I'm gonna kiss you." I mean, like, not to reap Dean, but, like, you know, she is seen as a romantic or sexual figure for him. And for this kid, it's like, "I'm a mother figure for you. I'm gonna hug you while you go into the void or whatever." And I don't know. I mean, do the male reapers-? [laughing]

C: Yeah. Yeah. Would you have kissed Dean?

G: There's that one guy in "Faith." Like, there's that one guy in "Faith." That guy should have kissed Dean or something. [C laughs]

C: But yeah, no, it's- yeah. And I guess, like, you could say, like, "Reapers decide like, what kind of role they want to take, and then they choose their form to suit it," but like, that's just making excuses. Supernatural, just like, casts people or thinks of characters and then will just like, do shit based off of what they think that someone who looks like that is supposed to do. It's annoying! I'm annoyed. Also, I don't know. We've already talked about this in “Roadkill,” but the way that they differentiate like, a good, peaceful death, like, looking like going into the light or something different than like, when they like, burn a ghost's body and they're like, screaming and all that shit. I don't like that. I think all deaths should look the same. Maybe it's like, there's one look that's like, "when you die and go to Heaven," and one look when you die and go to Hell?

G: I mean, the thing is because they don't treat those ghosts as people. They just don't.

C: Yeah, they are the monster of the week.

G: Yeah, they think of them as "They're a monster." God. They really did tie up a chain around that guy's neck in "Yellow Fever" and did to him what horrible thing that killed him. Like, that's crazy.

C: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty bad.

G: I feel like if Supernatural interfaced with that ghost as "This is a person, this is a human soul," they would have not done that at all. So yeah, they just don't think of it that way in those episodes.

C: Yeah. And it's especially annoying because, like, the next thing that Tessa says, like, it would help like, her case if like, Cole's death looked horrific. The next thing that she like, really gets into is like, "Dean, you should look out for yourself, because, like, the thing that I see the most with death is that people lie to themselves about how like, people are in a better place now," etc etc. So like, so Cole's death should have looked bad. It should have looked like the death of every other ghost to like, hammer home the fact that, like, any lies you tell yourself about death aren't true. But like, no, like, he literally does like, hug her and go into the light. Like, that does not help your argument, Tessa. Or, that doesn't help your argument, Jeremy Carver, I suppose. Ugh! What an annoying man! Yeah, so that happens. That's how Cole dies dies. Tessa says, like, "I've been around death from the get-go. You know what I see most? Lies. You all lie to yourselves, Dean, because deep down, you're all scared." Where's any of this coming from" Whatever. She says that Dean, the thing he told her earlier where he thinks that the angels have something good in store for him, that is a lie, and he should know deep down that something bad is about to happen, because there's no such thing as miracles. And I mean, this is true. Michael vessel plotline is gonna whack him in the face. Dean asks, "What are you saying?" But she disappears.

G: Yeah, we go back to the motel room, and Pamela is now finally summoning Dean into his body. After this, like, she goes to sit on Sam's bed. Sam is saying, like, "Yeah, like, don't worry. We're just gonna talk to Tessa and she's gonna hold off the reaping until you get better." And Pamela is like, "Nope. I think she's already back on it," and then we we see a shot of her hand over her wound, and like, blood is like, pouring out of this thing.

C: Yeah, I mean, Sam's natural order thing does stop being part of his, like, logic once it's someone close to him, which yeah, makes sense.

G: Yeah, that's how it goes.

C: That is how it goes.

C: And Dean finally awakes. And he's like, "What the fuck is happening?" And yeah. Pamela's dying. And Sam goes like, "You don't deserve this," and she goes, "Yeah, I don't. I told you I didn't want to do anything with this." [sad sound]

C: Sorry, Pamela.

G: And that, yeah, "Do me a favor. Tell that bastard Bobby Singer to go to Hell forever, introducing me to you two in the first place."

C: Unfortunately, we see him in Heaven, cracking open a cold one, so, doesn't happen.

G: I mean, we also see Pamela in Heaven, I think.

C: That's true.

G: Is that true?

C: Yeah, yeah, she's in "Dark Side of the Moon."

G: The bar? Yeah.

C: The bar is in Dean's mind. That's different. Or is she in a bar in "Dark Side of the Moon" also?

G: Holy shit! She was also in that fucking bar. That's crazy! In Dean's head, even. Well, I think she's also in "The Dark Side of the Moon." Dean says, "If it's any consolation, you're going to a better place," which is untrue. Fundamentally untrue.

C: Yeah, right after that conversation with Tessa, too? Come on!

G: It's such an odd thing- Dean, what are you doing?

C: It's just like, Jeremy Carver really wanted to be like, "And that was the lesson of the episode, you guys!" Okay, but you already taught that lesson to Dean, like, on my screen, so like, you don't have to have him do this?

G: And it's just I feel like it's such a horrible thing to do to someone dying.

C: - thing to say, yeah.

G: To like, spend their last few seconds on Earth giving them platitudes that you both know are not true?

C: Yeah. Like, he's approaching this like it's an awkward dinner and not like, her literal death.

G: Yeah. Pamela goes, "You're lying. But what the hell. Everybody's gotta go sometime." And she motions for Sam to come in close to her, and then she starts whispering, "I know what you did to that demon, Sam. I can feel what's inside you. If you think you have good intentions, think again." And this is the one that like, 'cause it's not talking about the actions or the anything. It's the intentions. Interesting wording, don't you think?

C: Yeah, yeah. I think it is about the like, Sam says that he's doing this to save people and like, to save the world, and that is true, but like, I think that at this point, the show thinks that he's mostly just doing it because of like, the addiction to the demon blood, so it's like, yeah, I mean, I think that's just the point of that line. Which, yeah, neat.

G: Yeah. She dies. Literally spends her dying breath telling Sam-

C: - to stop doing drugs, yeah.

G: - "You're evil." Dean asks, like, "What did she say to you?" And Sam doesn't respond, and that's the end of our episode.

C: Yeah. What'd you think about it?

G: I quite liked it. I think it's a nice way to be reintroduced to Supernatural after three months. Cold turkey. Cold turkey. I did not watch a single episode.

C: Mm. It was fine. I think it had a lot of concepts that were interesting and ways that it could have gone, and it just sort of touches on all them and doesn't really bring any to a particularly satisfying conclusion. Which, I mean, we all talked about during the episode already, so- Like, I can understand intellectually that it's one of the better Supernatural episodes, but like, it didn't really do anything for me, and that is perhaps concerning for the future 250 or whatever episodes we still have.

G: I mean, it is, but like, this isn't really credited as one of the best.

C: Yeah, just on the better half.

G: Hell yeah!

C: Best Line/Worst Line?

G: I think I like Cas's "You're different," which is so corny! Like it's so corny that I like that one. But I do like it. I do like it.

G: What's your best line?

C: I liked when Cas quoted Ecclesiastes. It was fun. It gives him the correct vibe for Season 4 Cas.

G: Yeah. My worst line is of course, the Demi Moore line.

C: Yeah, and I suppose mine shall be the Victoria's Secret line so that we can cover our bases regarding Dean being an absolute creep, though, I mean also, the "If it's any consolation, you're going to a better place," pretty bad. Pretty worst.

G: Okay. What's our next segment?

C: Spread those sheets.

G: Spreadsheets?

C: Yeah.

G: Spread those sheets, baby.

C: Alright. So I would say that there's misogyny. I don't recall any racism or homophobia. How much misogyny is there? I need to recalibrate. Like, is this like- it feels quite bad, but is it like, not that bad and we just haven't been like, touching Supernatural for a while, or like, what's the sitch?

G: I think this one, I would rate it as-

C: 1 or 2, I guess, 'cause it's not intrinsic to the episode.

G: I think I'll rate it as a two.

C: Sounds good.

G: I'm including here also Tessa's characterization.

C: Yes, good point.

G: But, like, Tessa's characterization began in Season 2, Episode 1, so this is like, they're continuing with her stuff. But also, she didn't have to kiss Dean, and she didn't have to hug that kid.

C: She really did not have to. IMDb guess.

G: Oh, god.

C: Man. What the fuck are things rated as again? Okay, let's see. In the past, in Season 4, "Sex and Violence" got an 8.4. "After School Special" got an 8.6. "Criss Angel is a Douchebag" got a 7.9.

G: That's crazy. 7.9?

C: Yeah, people didn't like those gayass magicians.

G: And we rated it 8.4 and 8.5.

C: Yeah, I mean, we really liked it. Okay, I think people like this one.

G: I think for this one, I'd say it's an 8.2.

C: Okay. I was gonna go for like, more of an 8.5 'cause I think it's better- I think it would be more liked than "Sex and Violence" but not more liked than "After School Special."

G: Ooh! It's an 8.6.

C: Okay, okay. I was pretty close.

G: Pretty high.

C: That is a pretty high rating, yeah.

C: Oh, we can finally check how old that kid was. He was the voice of Nemo??

G: That's wonderful!

C: Okay, he's 29 now. Okay, he was like, 15 when this was- 14 or 15 when this was filmed. So, yeah, not 12.

G: This is so fascinating. Like, this review is called "Stop Lying to Yourself," and I have no idea what they're talking about, based on the review. [C laughing]

C: This person said that Pamela's death was the saddest thing on the show.

G: I mean, so far? 'Cause, I mean, it does feel like a very real death 'cause like, we're at her deathbed as she bleeds it out, and it's not like, immediate. It's not like, you know, like, she gets stabbed in and then dies, it's she gets stabbed, and then there's a time between, and she sits there and dies.

C: Yeah. That's fair. Yeah, that makes sense.

G: I mean, this one points out that Huggy Bear isn't like a "he's a cute bear" thing, and it's a reference to something.

C: What is it a reference to?

G: "The character of Huggy Bear was a 'street-wise, jive-talking' underground contact of Starsky and Hutch from the American 1970's TV show. It means more like informant. Even tho I can not deny that Dean antiquated language choice to Cas indeed interesting." [both laugh] So true!

C: Someone said, "Everyones favorite hot psychic Traci Dinwiddle is back as Pamela, and there is a very special Sexy-Woman-of-the-Week (not that Traci isn't) surprise in store." [both laughing] That is one way you could think about female characters on Supernatural. I suppose. I mean, they do do sexy womans of the week. Boy.

G: This one is saying that like, this season's recurrent plot of broken seals is getting boring.

C: Hmm. I mean, the rest of the show is the recurring plot of "There's a monster, and we have to kill it." [both laughing] Like, yeah.

G: Yeah! I mean, but there's 15 seasons of it, and we're gonna watch all of it, so really.

C: It's every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. This is true! Okay.

G: Yeah, okay, well, that's it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next time, we'll be talking about Season 4, Episode 16: "On the Head of a Pin." C: Whoo!

G: Leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Okay. Follow us on social media. We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com, official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. We have merch. That's crazy. Why did we do that?

G: That's crazy! [laughs] Yeah. You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[beep]

G: Wow! We're like, thinking of this shit. What's wrong with us?

C: It's because we actually tried for RubbishPod, so. [laughs]

G: Yeah, so now we're inclined to try. Wow.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

G: Who'd have thunk?

[beep]

G: Isn't there an Eve in Supernatural? Mother of monsters?

C: There's not an Eve, it's- yes, there is an Eve, actually. She's the mother of all monsters or something, right? Isn't she?

G: Yes, yes, Season 6.

C: And then there's Adam and his his fucking seraph wife, [both] Seraphina. [both laugh]

G: Supernatural will do anything.

[beep]

G: When was this episode?

C: This episode aired in March 2009, which means that we had Seasons 1 through 4-

G: House was new.

C: - and now we're in the middle of 5. What?

G: Wait, House was not new back then? When did House start airing? I thought it was like, 2008.

C: No. No, House started in 2004

G: That's crazy. It's older than Supernatural?

C: Yeah.

G: Oh, yeah! 'Cause the Amber season was-

C: Was that Season 3?

G: No, it was Season 4, which is Season 3 of Supernatural, and the Amber season is the, you know, the shorter one, because of the strike.

C: Oh, because of the strike. Yeah yeah yeah. And it ends with "Wilson's Heart." Yeah. And okay, since it is March 2009 when this episode airs, it also means that “Lucky 13” has happened, which you know, wonderful episode.

G: Bisexuality win.

C: Bisexuality win.

G: Is that the one? What is that episode.

C: Yeah, it's the one where this girl at a club hooks up with her just so that-

G: Oh, yeah.

C: - she, like, can have a medical attack in her bed so that Thirteen will treat her. [G laughs] And then at the end, it's like, "We're not even in love."

G: And Thirteen was like, "We can die. Together." And then apparently, she's not dying, so they're not even in love anymore.

C: Yeah, it's like all the charm goes away and it's like, joever. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful episode.

G: Wonderful!

C: Will never be the lesbians with the liver transplant or whatever, but you know what? It's close.

G: That shit was crazy. That shit was crazy.

C: It was great. But yeah, okay. What do you think Dean's House M.D. opinions are, and do you think Sam has seen any, and if so, what are his opinions?

G: First of all, who is who is Dean's favorite fellow? We need to figure this out.

C: Oh, I didn't even think about that. I think for Sam, I think he wants it to be Cameron, but he's actually a Foreman girl.

G: You know what? I believe it. I mean, you know, the whole Foreman thing with the like, paper, I feel like Sam would be like, into that.

C: Which paper?

G: Like, Sam would understand where Foreman is coming from. Like, Foreman like, stole Cameron's paper and everything?

C: Her file?

G: No no no, Cameron's like, article.

C: Oh. Slay.

G: And that's the thing that they were fighting about when he got fucking parasited in the head and almost died.

C: Wait wait wait, is that the one where he-

G: And then he stabs her!

C: - infects her on purpose to force her take care of him?

G: He stabs her on purpose to infect her! Amazing!

C: It's great. I think Foreman's wonderful.

G: Amazing! No, because the thing is like, people, when they talk about House, talk about like, "House is so crazy, but like, Wilson's even more insane," and it's like, everybody in this fucking show is ball-to-the-wall.

C: Yeah. Chase killed somebody.

G: He killed a guy! Straightest thing he's ever done. Yeah. It's wonderful.

C: Okay. Who do you think Dean's favorite fellow is? I have absolutely no opinions on this. My Dean House M.D. opinions start and end with "He probably thinks it's funny when House sexually harasses people."

G: He genuinely fucking does. He like, sees that as inspirational content. [both laugh]

C: No, exactly. He's taking notes every time, like, House is just the worst to Cuddy. He just goes, "Right on, House!" and like, slaps the TV on the shoulder, and then takes another note.

G: Dean is like, a terrible guy! [both laughing]

C: Yeah, he is! He's quite bad this episode!

G: Sometimes I forget, and then I remember! It's like, you know, wow!

C: Wow! I feel like people are gonna be upset because there's the whole like, "It's performative because of his sexuality!" blah blah. I don't think it is. I think he's just- yeah.

G: I do not buy it.

C: Yeah. Do you have an opinion on Dean's favorite fellow?

G: You know what?

C: What. Kushner? Kutner?

G: Okay, he he either really likes Chase, or he really hates Chase.

C: Okay, is his name Kutner or Kushner? I totally forgot, because Obama killed him.

G: It's Kutner. It's Kutner.

C: Kutner? Yeah, okay.

G: Is it Kutner or Kutner? I don't know. I think I just said the exact same words in the exact same pronunciation. [both laugh] And it literally is either of those two. Yeah. Obama killed that guy.

G: I think Cutner actually has, like, a very- I feel like the people that like, are closest to House intellectually, like, in terms of thought process and everything is portrayed as like, Chase and Kutner, so I feel like there's something to that for Dean.

C: Chase? Wait, Chase? Are you sure? Okay. I thought Foreman had the arc.

G: I mean, Chase is frequently- I mean, Foreman had the arc of like, "I'm like you, but I don't want to be like you" or whatever. And with Chase it's like, "I'm not exactly like House-"

C: "But I want to be."

G: "- but if I was like him, I wouldn't be opposed to it," you know. And, I mean, Chase did inherit the post. Right? The show ends, and he's Head of Diagnostics?

C: I don't rember.

G: Yeah, he is.

C: He didn't deserve that.

G: Yeah, he's Head of Diagnostics. I think he did.

C: I guess 'cause all the other fellows left.

G: 'Cause he figured out that one girl had fucking, I don't know, sun infection or whatever.

C: [laughs] I don't rember. Probably.

G: [laughs] They will literally have just randomass diseases in House M.D., and I support it.

C: Yeah.

G: Chase is frequently seen as the one with the Eureka moments and everything.

C: Chase does have daddy issues, which I guess Dean could latch onto.

G: No, yeah, exactly. And like, that's why I'm saying that like, Kutner and Chase trying to be like- not trying to be like House, but like, being like House in a way, and like, reacting differently to those situations, like, I feel like that would appeal to Dean as like, someone with daddy issues. 'Cause I do feel like a lot of what Chase's thing going on is like, projecting the daddy issues from his dad to House, and I feel like, you know, that would appeal to Dean.

C: Yeah.

G: What if his favorite fellow is Taub? [C laughs]

C: No one's favorite fellow is Taub. Not a single person.

G: [laughing] Has anyone ever said those words before? "My favorite fellow is Taub."

C: Yeah.

G: Yeah, guy who cheats on his wife. Could be appealing! Who knows? C: That's true.

G: I mean, Wilson also cheats on several wives.

C: Yeah, Wilson cheats on a lot of wives. [G laughing]

G: That's like, Wilson's favorite pastime.

C: Yeah, yeah.

G: Cheat on his wives, fuck his patients.

C: Yeah. Just one of them! [both laugh]

G: Just one. Just one patient.

C: Yeah, yeah. Her fucking clothes are in his closet and all that shit.

G: No his clothes are in her closet.

C: Are his clothes in her closet? That's crazy. Fucking stays the night.

G: Yeah. Until House figures it out. [laughing] I love House M.D.!

C: It's a really bad show and no one should watch it.

G: What a horrible show that is so good!

C: I don't know. What does Sam get out of House M.D.?

G: You know what? What's the name of that guy that's like, Kutner's bestie when they were in training? Or when they were like, doing the elimination rounds?

C: I have no clue.

G: And he was like, Mormon or something? And he had a kid, and he got kicked out 'cause he like, instead of getting the panties from Cuddy, [laughs] he like, struck a deal with Cuddy so Cuddy would give it to him. What's his name?

C: Okay. I don't know.

G: Cole.

C: Okay.

G: Wow. He's a 28-year-old divorcee, and that is so important to me. [C laughing] Like, his House Wiki page literally just says, "Name: Jeffrey Cole. Age: 28. Marital status: Divorced"! And that's important to me.

C: Could have been me, like, six years early if Danica and I just stuck it out for a little longer.

G: Exactly. Could be me if they legalized divorce in the Philippines.

C: Could be! Wait, what were you gonna say about Cole.

G: No, because, like, Cole has this like, arc, where, like, he's a bit goody two-shoes, and 'cause like, part of it is like, he's Mormon and like, House is always trying to trip him up faith-wise and everything. Like, he gets eliminated because House was making them do something, and he does it, but in a roundabout way, where, instead of what House wanted, which is for them to, you know, like, play with the system, he instead, like, worked with the system, so.

C: "Play with the system" is such an interesting way to say "break into boss's house-" like, "boss's boss's house and then steal her panties," [G laughing] but yeah.

G: But that's the way House worded it! It's the way he words it. It's crazy.

C: It is the way he worded it. Yeah. Well, what a show that is. Anyway, so after that line-

G: I mean, House M.D. has unmatched levels of misogyny-

C: And racism and everything-

G: - but at least there, women are people.

C: No, exactly.

G: Yeah, everything. But like, their characters are people, and I like that. I appreciate that.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

G: You cannot say the same about Supernatural.

C: Yeah, until later, hopefully, I think some women are people.

G: That's true. Rowena is in this show.

C: True.

G: Also, just to inform everyone, during the break, I saw a post on my timeline that's like, "Who do you ship Amara with?" and then, like, Billie was one of the choices, and I like, got Covid from that post. [both laugh] Like, I saw that, and I was like, "I think I hauve Covid!" [C laughs] That's crazy. That's crazy.

C: Pretty good.

G: And there's no content for it. Like, the AO3 tag is a episode tag. "Supernatural Form and Void," not even for Supernatural. That's crazy, right?

C: Yeah.

[beep]

C: What's up, gamers?

G: What's up? Who, gamers?

C: Who's turn? Is it my turn?

G: [British accent] It's your turn.

C: [British accent] Alright.

G: [laughing] That's such a fucking- why is it when I do accents, it's like, completely normal behavior, but like, when you do it, I'm like, "That's the funniest thing anyone has ever said in the podcast." [C laughs]

C: I don't know. I think you just do it more often.

G: Yeah. Do one right now. Do one right now.

C: No!

G: Do a Southern accent. Let's hear it.

C: No! So Alastair gets a- [G laughs] I'm not.

[beep]

C: What’s up, gamers?

G: How do I- how the hell do I meet people if I don't want to go on the apps?

C: Oh. I don't know. Extracurriculars.

G: Oh, yeah.

C: Bars? [G groans]

G: Horrible. I don't want to do that.