#theon vi

[ladystoneboobs]

idt we talk enough about how a song of ice and fire is also the song of incest and cannibalism. i mean, sure, obviously both of those subjects are noted as present, but the saga feels much more known for its incest, which idt is fair or accurate to the later materiel. iirc, jaime fucking cersei next to their dead firstborn is the last instance of onpage incest happening in present tl, and after that it's all about the cannibals, baby.

(disclaimer: cw/tw sa, cw/tw rape, and i'm not counting cousincest as that's normal in-world even for non-targaryens and also still legal in many places in our world today, nor counting the faux-incestuous freudian mess that is littlefinger/alayne(sansa)/sweetrobin, nor any dark humor jokes and/or unfulfilled threats wrt forced cannibalism)

in fact pretty much all the active incest during the present tl happens in those first 3 books:

the twincest as a major plot point ofc, kicking action off when bran saw them fucking in a tower

and viserys creeping on dany and twisting her nipple

tyrion relating his backstory to bronn wherein he and tysha were both raped by proxy by his father, tywin (tho tyrion does not use that terminology)

craster still being alive to rape and impregnate his own daughters (resulting in dozens of forced incestuous relationships)

and theon unknowingly groping his own sister while she (knowingly) groped him in return

jaime's early pov recalled how he shut up cersei with kissing when they fought after bran refused to die

bella of stoney sept trying and failing to seduce gendry who is (unbeknownst to them both) her half-brother as both were sired by robert baratheon (only example in these 3 books where incest was averted before any sexual activity or incestuous contact occurred)

the aforementioned sept twincest next to joffrey's corpse

tyrion learning from oberyn about cersei twisting his penis when he was a baby

cersei's failed attempt to seduce jaime in wst, pulling out his dick for either a bj or hj until her talk of tyrion's death made him lose his boner

while incest is not exactly absent from the text after that, it seems to exist in the feastdance only in hypotheticals or past memories:

aeron's trauma flashbacks of his (implied only in published text) csa by euron

jaime still feeling lust when seeing cersei nude

and her fond reminiscing about them fucking behind robert's back/brief dream of them as a married couple before her walk of shame

and cersei remembering another she twisted tyrion's baby penis

victarion misinterpreting asha's offer of partnership as a marriage proposal and suddenly looking at his niece in a new way with "his manhood beginning to stiffen"

jaime's recollection of fucking cersei at darry next to robert as he was passed out drunk before cersei sent him to hunt arya (which would have happened back in agot and the point of this scene is more his failed hunt for a child just to make cersei happy)

arianne's "uneasy" memory of a past fantasy about being seduced by a man whose description is suspiciously similar to her late uncle oberyn

the aborted marital match of aegon/young griff to his purported aunt dany

illyrio saying (the now dead) viserys tried to rape dany the night before her wedding to drogo (another event from agot concerning a guy we already knew was into incest)

and tyrion once saying he wanted to rape as well as murder cersei

conversely, the cannibalism in the earlier books is most often only unproven hypotheticals alluded to as possible cannibalism:

old nan saying the others fed their dead servants the flesh of human children (which we have not yet seen with any wights so far, whether or not one counts walking undead eating human flesh as straight-up cannibalism)

the mystery meat in flea bottom's bowls o' brown which may or may not contain symon silver tongue after tyrion had him killed

renly's recollection that cressen kept stannis from catapulting their old master-at-arms by saying they may need to eat him later (which did not come to pass thanks to davos)

joffrey telling his people to eat their own dead (with no way of knowing if any actually did)

lady hornwood eating her own fingers (though bran's pov only notes them being chewed on, not swallowed. it's only in adwd that people talk of her eating the fingers.)

the mentions of the ice river clans being the cannibals beyond the wall (who are def not among the free folk jon snow gets to know onpage, making it just background detail)

bran's (possibly mythical) story of the rat cook

and biter chewing on people he attacked and other corpses (which seems to be just a side hobby connected to his killing method moreso constituting a snack than a full meal from a person butchered for meat. this tendancy of his is just background detail in acok, with biter chewing a corpse in the background after the weasel soup operation, and the hindsight implication that it could well have been him rather than dogs or wolves who had "been at" the corpses after the skirmish where yoren was killed)

while the feastdance feels much more in your face with cannibalism, having not only more total mentions of the practice but also more confirmed, actual cannibalism (as opposed to the ambiguity of each and every bowl o' brown), for those who know how to look at the evidence:

jaime learned that his father's mad dog aka the mountain fed parts of vargo hoat to all his prisoners (including vargo himself) after recapturing harrenhal

and euron bragged about pulling a similar trick with the warlocks he captured (the only twist being that the warlocks knew what they were being forced to eat, which vargo hoat and wylis manderly etc at harrenhal likely didn't)

the elder brother of the quiet isle told of biter eating all of a woman's breasts at saltpans after she'd been raped and killed (prob the largest amount of flesh biter's confirmed to have eaten from one corpse)

bran and co. ate "pig" supplied by coldhands which had to be long pig aka human meat

brienne felt her face being eaten by biter in her own pov (which is so much worse than him chewing others in the background of the weasel soup scene)

theon was told that two ironmen at moat cailin were found eating their dead comrades

the astapori were said to eat their own dead while under siege by the yunkishmen

and then were said to do so again in refugee camps outside meereen

sam and davos sailed past skagos and remembered stories of skagosi cannibalism

khrazz the pit fighter cut the hearts from his defeated foes to eat them

cotter pyke's last letter to jon snow said the wildlings were eating their own dead at hardhome

4 of stannis's men were executed by burning for butchering and eating other men (with asha wondering how many others had done so without being caught)

and ofc the frey pies with wyman manderly having his 3 former guests killed and serving their meat to their own kin and the other guests at ramsay's wedding while eating some himself too

two of these examples (involving gregor clegane and euron greyjoy) must have actually happened during the course of asos, but grrm chose to give us the gruesome details in affc, which was brand new information about men we already knew were villains but did not know were into that fucked-up shit specifically, unlike being reminded that agot-era jaime and viserys wanted to fuck their sisters. (and not unlike how adwd has the clarification of multiple characters saying lady hornwood ate her own fingers as opposed to bran's acok pov just saying she chewed on them.) it's as if after craster was killed and jc effectively broke up grrm decided cannibalism was the taboo subject matter he would fill the later books with, so we'd really feel the increasing danger of starvation-induced cannibalism with winter's arrival (and have no trouble believing rickon's new home of skagos really is a cannibal island). however, in-universe it feels like there's some sort of environmental balance connection so that the decrease in one formerly common behaviorial abomination just allows another such abomination to fill in the gap with a sharp increase in activity, like deer overpopulation resulting from lack of predators as if all the active incest somehow stopped more people from eating themselves or other people.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

re: being unable to predict twow and maybe being upset it doesn't do what fandom wants it to, were there any things in adwd you remember being surprised by and that went against common fandom interpretation at the time? :3

I'm not quite sure what was common fandom interpretation at the time, since after I finished AFFC in 2005 I tried the westeros.org forums and was extremely repelled by them and their hate for my favorite characters - and indeed, most female characters - and avoided them thereafter. (And somehow I never thought to check the Livejournal communities at the time, alas, which would've been more up my alley.) I did devour worg's Citadel (their pre-wiki, including the So Spake Martin archive) and fanart collection though lol.

But of course I was still surprised by things in ADWD. Like, I had no expectation whatsoever that Bloodraven was still alive, let alone that he was the three-eyed crow. Or heck, that the children of the forest definitely exist and appear on page as actual characters! I did not expect a Varamyr prologue POV in the slightest, or his warg/skinchanger lore reveals. And I did not expect the Aegon reveal at all, though checking the SSMs afterwards (as well as this ancient pre-AFFC FAQ) showed me that some people had been wondering from day 1 if he had survived. And for that matter, Jon Connington's survival was surprising (at least my memory is very good, so the griffin thing and Tyrion's suspicions of him being a Westeros lord had me leaping back to Jaime's conversation with Ronnet), as well as Jon's POV (including his sexual orientation) and the greyscale thing. Oh man, the whole stone men scene was all new fascinating worldbuilding.

As for existing POVs and known plots, I certainly never expected Theon's state as Reek (tortured, yes, but not reduced to that, though I probably should have), or that he would be a POV again, or that I would find his narrative so heartwrenching or that he would become a favorite character. (From reading a bunch of pre-ADWD fanfics, I don't think the fandom expected Ramsay to be so abusive of Jeyne either, but for that I have no idea why.) I was surprised by Cersei's walk of shame, though I probably should have expected some sort of religion-based sexual humiliation. (Actually, I don't think most people expected the returning AFFC POVs because of the book split, though I'm glad GRRM chose to update us on some of its cliffhangers - like, at least Brienne is no longer hanging from a tree!) I did not expect Tyrion's POV and mental state to be so dark, but again, I probably should have. I also didn't expect him to link up with Jorah (I don't recall what I imagined Jorah to do in his exile but not that - maybe lurk around the fringes of Meereen?) or the slavery plot at all.

I think the fandom in general expected more... plot-advancement, I guess, more battles involving KL again, more movement of Dany towards Westeros, though they always have, lol. (There are ACOK-era theories that she'd come to Westeros right away, marry Robb and destroy the Lannisters together, etc.) I'm sure some expected Stannis conquering Winterfell and getting the Boltons out, though at least there they were mostly right, as the battle of ice (as well as the battle of fire) got cut from ADWD last minute. As for plot advancement expectations from me, I personally hoped that Marwyn would reach Dany in ADWD, though considering he leaves at the end of the last chapter of AFFC and the distances involved, I really should have known better. But I did expect to hear at least a little about Rickon, and Davos learning he's on Skagos (and getting sent to retrieve him) was a pleasant semi-resolution there.

Anyway, hope that helps! If/when we get TWOW, despite the fandom doing like 15 years of speculation and theories (not to mention the show), I'm sure there will be plenty of surprises, both positive ones and disappointments, as well as completely unexpected things.

[robynnnn311]

i’m theorising i’m prophesying i’m ruminating

[aeriondripflame]

IN MEMORY OF A BROTHER, THEON & ASHA GREYJOY

george r.r. martin, a song of ice and fire. game of thrones (2011). becks_rylynn, how the light gets in. jacqueline woodson, weight. anäis nin, house of incest. the lighthouse (2019). frank ocean - white ferrari. annie lennox - into the west. alphonse de neuville, giant squid illustration. robert kurvitz, disco elysium. angel’s egg (1985).

[dalekofchaos]

GRRM's original outline

Other what if scenarios that I ran out of space for. Add your own if it didn't make the cut

What if Lyanna lived and became Robert's Queen?

What if Myrcella was born first and was betrothed to Robb

What if Robb and Margaery are betrothed?

What if Rhaella survived childbirth with Daenerys?

What if Joanna Lannister didn't die in childbirth?

What if Arthur took Lyanna/Jon to Dragonstone and fled with Rhaella, Viserys and Dany and regrouped with Jon Connington?

Jamie took the throne for himself after killing Aerys?

What if Elia and her children escaped to Dorne?

What if Balon died instead of his sons?

What if Jon Arryn had a son and was raised with Ned and Robert?

What if Theon did what Asha recommended and kidnapped Bran and RIckon and burned Winterfell to the ground and this leads to Theon becoming the Iron Prince and a strong contender for the Kingsmoot.

What if Rhaegar and Robert died in the Trident and Ned became King?

What if Viserys met and married Arianne Martell?

What if Domeric Bolton lived and never met Ramsay?

What if Rhaenyra won The Dance Of The Dragons

What if Arya revealed herself to Roose Bolton

What if Rhaegar married Cersei instead of Elia?

What if Ned and his brothers talked sense into Robert and he swore off his ways to be good for Lyanna and Lyanna fought in the rebellion because Aerys kills her father and brother(because Southern Ambitions)

[direwolfrules]

The Weirwood Queen Memes Part 7: I’m running out of quippy titles, much like how the Eyrie ran out of food

Spoilers for The Weirwood Queen series by @redwolf17. Go check it out, if I’ve made seven meme posts about a fanfic then it’s probably good. Unless you like show-based bashing fics. This is a book-based fic with no bashing (the Cersei stuff isn’t bashing, it’s just in character).

Part 6

Part 5 - has links to all previous parts, I’m too lazy to link all of them again.

Master Post

[g0lightly]

Just realized Theyne and Gendrya are the only straight ships that aren’t lavender political marriages I have planned for my longfic lmao. Maybe some background Sam/Gilly too.

Oh and Arianne is married to Aegon and he’s madly in love with her but she’s probably cheating on him with Tyene. As she should! So Arigon is simultaneously a straight ship and a lavender political marriage. Good for her!

[gazpachoandbooks]

Arya: I love going out with Jon, Theon and Aegon! It's great to never have to be the designated driver

Gendry: why?

Jon: please stop bringing this up

Bran: the three of them are no longer allowed to get drunk at the same time

Gendry: I'm going to need more context here

Arya: oh it's a great story

Jon: IT'S NOT ARYA

Sansa *already tearing up from laughter*: it really is

Arya: so there was this family party, and everyone was there, and Theon and Aegon, who were already pretty wasted themselves, managed to get Jon drunk. So they absolutely HAD to pull a prank on Jon Connington-

Aegon: I think we should all just stop talking for a while

Arya: -and considering he'd fallen asleep on the table about an hour ago, they decided it was a brilliant idea to dye his hair bright pink

Gendry: OH GODS

Bran: it gets better

Aegon: please just stop

Arya: and I've never seen anything half as fucking funny as their faces when the deed was done and the doors of the room opened up to reveal-

Jon: SHUT UP SHUT UP

Arya: JON CONNINGTON

Gendry: I'm not following

Rickon *breathless from laughing, already on the floor*: WRONG- WRONG REDHEAD

Jon *whispering in fury*: wrong fucking redhead

Gendry: please don't tell me you were the ones who dyed Brynden THE BLACKFISH TULLY'S HAIR BRIGHT PINK

Theon: it was more of a neon bubblegum shade if we're being accurate

Jon: please just stop talking

Gendry: OH MY GODS

Arya: Uncle Edmure was laughing so hard he actually needed medical assistance

Aegon: the worst part is Bran knew the whole time. He just decided to let us ruin our lives

Bran: I honestly can't think of a single reason why I should have stopped you

Arya: I think about Uncle Brynden's face when he saw himself in the mirror every. Single. Day.

Gendry: how do you come back from that??

Jon: you start by avoiding Riverrun like the fucking plague

Theon: he still doesn't talk to me. A bit of an overreaction if you ask me. His hair grew back! To be fair I still can't look him in the eye without laughing my ass off

Aegon: if I ever see him anywhere I pretend someone just called me and run for my life

[sigilsongs-a]

(``) muse tags. JON

(``) jon snow . (tag)

[death-of-cats]

Bran VI, AGOT

Bran might never have warmed to Theon, but he is the only Stark to include him in their prayers 🙏

[aelyxmagnus]

Ramsay Bolton in Theon VI acok by tom romain

[ladysansa]

asoiaf characters + vengeance

A Game of Thrones, Sansa VI // Judith Slaying Holofernes, Artemesia Gentileschi // A Feast for Crows, Arianne, The Princess in the Tower // Medea, Giuseppe-Raymondo Bernardazzi // A Dance with Dragons, The Watcher, Areo Hotah // Tomyris Plunges the Head of the Dead Cyrus Into a Vessel of Blood, Peter Paul Rubens // A Clash of Kings, Theon V // The Two Princes Edward and Richard in the Tower, 1483, John Everett Millais

[franzkafkagf]

top 5 most tragic grrm characters?

ohh such a wonderful question! ♡

Theon Greyjoy

When Theon says he shouldve died with Robb at the Red Wedding... rarely did I cry so hard. For one it shows that he has given up at life ever becoming better—his entire having been worn down by Ramsay. It also shows his genuine remorse towards the betrayal of the one person he loved most in the world. The worst thing about it? Theon has no one to blame for it but himself. This line is the final admission that he fucked up, and that what has been broken can never be mended again.

2. Catelyn Stark

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Catelyn's chapters just get sadder and sadder until the end. She loved her children so fiercely; and yet that blind devotion and love for them ends up causing so much death and destruction. Catelyn was a good person, whose only goal was to save her own and serve justice for her husband's death—her intentions were good, and yet she dies in the belief that her children were all dead and that all hope was lost.

3. Aegon II Targaryen

Aegon is a hard one to pin down for me because he is certainly tragic, but we don't know him the same way we do the POV characters. But it fits perfectly; he was forced to take the throne against his will, and when he accepts it and finally finds some sort of drive and purpose, his peace is cruelly snatched away from him in the form of the murder of his son. After that it's just a continuous downward spiral—he is burned and unable to walk, he runs away and while he is in hiding he hears of everyone he ever knew dying. He quite literally lost everything but his daughter— and even she he didn't get to see again; dying before being able to. He quite literally was both made and destroyed by the weight of a crown he never wanted. I think I'd sell my soul to get a few POV chapters from Aegon... imagine.

4. Elia Martell

Left behind with her babies by her husband, the man that was supposed to protect and care for them. Her death was so cruel—having to see her children die and then be brutalized herself. She had only ever been a dutiful wife and mother, and Rhaegar paid her absolute dust. The realm didn't deserve her. Need Aegon VI to be real so he can take revenge for how they treated his mother. And what for? Why did this poor woman do? What did she have to pay for? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All that happened to her happened in service of a dusty and aged prophecy.

5. Cersei Lannister

She had been doomed by her own flaws from the very beginning. She grows up wanting to be something else than what she's supposed to be. This noble girl with a bit too much ambition, more than what's good for her as a girl in that world, certainly. The prophecy she holds onto promises riches and greatness, but also spell her eventual doom. This is the end of her—she sees a threat in everyone and alienates the people that could've actually saved her from the tragedy she has imposed upon herself.

[ladystoneboobs]

House of the Dragon s01e05 We Light the Way // Game of Thrones s02e06 The Old Gods and the New // House of the Dragon s01e05 We Light the Way // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter LVI, Theon V // House of the Dragon s01e07 Driftmark // Game of Thrones s02e03 What Is Dead May Never Die // House of the Dragon s01e07 Driftmark // Game of Thrones s02e07 A Man Without Honor // House of the Dragon s01e07 Driftmark // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter LVI, Theon V // House of the Dragon s01e07 Driftmark // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter XXXVII, Theon III // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter LVI, Theon V // House of the Dragon s01e07 Driftmark // Game of Thrones s02e06 The Old Gods and the New // House of the Dragon s01e09 The Green Council // Game of Thrones s01e04 Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things // House of the Dragon s01e09 The Green Council // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter LXVI, Theon VI // House of the Dragon s01e09 The Green Council // A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin, Chapter XLVI, Bran VI // House of the Dragon s01e09 The Green Council // Game of Thrones s02e03 What Is Dead May Never Die //

[atopvisenyashill]

there’s a few potential sansa romantic endgames that i think have some textual basis and i think all of them come with a lot of issues wrt sansa being able to publically claim these relationships which is why i think sansa will say her children are “fathered by a wolf” because regardless of Who she’s with or even the legality of it, she’s going to be actively concealing their identity AND YET she needs to have children.

i think especially that even though arya’s love life is guaranteed to be less complicated, sansa will feel obligated to take this “burden” of ensuring their line onto herself; she wants arya to have the freedom to go where she pleases, be with who she pleases, and follow her passions and that is not easy to do if everyone is expecting you to come home and start popping out kids. I consider them a sort of reflection of ned and lyanna in this way in that sansa, second born and not meant to rule, uses her newfound power to let the wild, youngest girl (but not youngest child) in the family follow her passions wherever they may take her.

this is all kind of weird with the nixed time jump but considering that george has talked about writing stories from arya’s pov about her adventures, I think it’s going to be fairly important in story regardless of their ages that arya will attempt to offer to stay home and marry and have children as a way of helping to protect sansa’s very shaky claim on winterfell but that sansa encourages arya to do whatever she wants. to travel, to help shepherd the boatloads of refugees from the various wars to wherever they want to call home, to settle displaced northerners in other parts of westeros as well, to get involved in the lives of the people arya is helping and agree to help them liberate their own homes by using her skills (crucial here that arya is A leader but not the SOLE leader), or to go out into the woods and be a secret not-quite-an-outlaw (bc sansa isn’t outlawing anything that could hurt arya’s lil crusades, probably is helping bankroll arya) to bring justice to the smallfolk, like whatever it is arya wants to do with her life, the point is that she offers to give it up and sansa refuses to take the offer.

and then we have the idea that her kids are fathered by a wolf. not elizabeth-ing herself here exactly because she’s having children but never publicly acknowledging a father or a husband or even a lover.

i think the candidates most likely are jon snow and theon, with both brienne and podrick as like “i’m not saying he’s gonna do it but i am saying they make a lot of sense narratively” and aegon vi as a huge long shot but still undeniable contender. if briensa does go canon everyone owes me five bucks each tho. i think the options other people float are not just wildly unserious they also clearly don’t think sansa will be The Ruling Lady Of Winterfell, but some much more minor or less emotionally resonant title and i just do not vibe with that shit at all. harry the heir, sandor, sweetrobin, tyrion, littlefucker, like never mind sansa never once showing any real interest in these guys and NONE of these dudes being satisfied by the idea of being her secret husband, if sansa says to arya “yeah i’m marrying tyrion” arya is going “blink twice if you’re being held hostage and you need me to kill him” but it’s too late because jon snow is already unsheathing longclaw and bran is attacking with every raven in winterfell. it’s not fucking happening and imo it’s unserious to pretend like it could happen in canon. (and if it DOES happen in canon you will find me rocking up to george’s house in jersey and demanding to know why he’s so weird about teenage girls). i think margaery is a huge long shot here (and not just bc it would make them both canonically on screen gay) because i don’t think she’s gonna live to the ending, and jeyne poole is too traumatized at this point in time for me to feel confident in putting her in the same category as brienne and pod.

(theon’s trauma is WHY i think he’s still a contender - post reek theon is going to struggle a lot with figuring out where he’s supposed to be, who he’s supposed to be, and who he can trust as he puts himself back together, and that lends itself nicely to the idea of a secret husband/lover imo. once again, we are talking extreme trauma bonding here - that’s just the only way i see sansa’s romances going).

if you’re asking “who do you think arya is winding up with” it’s gendry. i don’t doubt that there were some plans for edric dayne, arya, and gendry but i think gendry was always going to be her great love here, that she’s always going to turn down the idea of marriage to him but gendry doesn’t care so long as they are still together. there’s a neon blinking sign over gendry’s head that says “endgame material” and i think it’s unserious to pretend it’s not there too!!